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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:08 PM
Original message
US intelligence fears Iran duped hawks into Iraq war
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1224075,00....

An urgent investigation has been launched in Washington into whether Iran played a role in manipulating the US into the Iraq war by passing on bogus intelligence through Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, it emerged yesterday.


Some intelligence officials now believe that Iran used the hawks in the Pentagon and the White House to get rid of a hostile neighbour, and pave the way for a Shia-ruled Iraq.

According to a US intelligence official, the CIA has hard evidence that Mr Chalabi and his intelligence chief, Aras Karim Habib, passed US secrets to Tehran, and that Mr Habib has been a paid Iranian agent for several years, involved in passing intelligence in both directions.

The CIA has asked the FBI to investigate Mr Chalabi's contacts in the Pentagon to discover how the INC acquired sensitive information that ended up in Iranian hands.

The implications are far-reaching. Mr Chalabi and Mr Habib were the channels for much of the intelligence on Iraqi weapons on which Washington built its case for war.

"It's pretty clear that Iranians had us for breakfast, lunch and dinner," said an intelligence source in Washington yesterday. "Iranian intelligence has been manipulating the US for several years through Chalabi."

more

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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bush has his place in history assured.
He is the biggest fool who ever served as President. No one else comes close.
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Born Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
51. Time to invade those evil doers in Iran
I can hear the bush team twisting this to their benifit, using it as another reason to invade Iran. The only way to stop this insanity is regime change here in America.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #51
78. We couldn't win against Iran. No way.
We haven't even been able to "win" against Iraq - a nation weaker than any third world country on earth. Even the neoconnazis have to know that we can not invade Iran, period. You know the Iranians know it.
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. Don't be too sure
Hate to say it, but there is always the Nuclear option. I would not put it past these fools. Once that genie is out of the bottle, Oh well, the fundies that are running Amurika these days are bent on bringing on Armagedden (sp).

The sooner they get raptured the hell out of here, the better off the entire world will be.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #85
103. Can you say...
...instant, nearly 100% universal isolation? Embargo? Confiscation of American assets to pay reparations?

They'd be SO fscked it wouldn't be funny.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #51
80. "twisting this to their benefit"
If they can benefit from it, then you must ask yourself if they planned it. It is in the PNAC's plan to invade Iran next. So, paint Iran as evildoers who duped us and/or draw them into Iraq to defend and fight with Al Sadr, and voila, an excuse to invade Iran.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #80
90. Nobody was fooled. Chalabi was wearing their color, so they bought
his story. Do we have to send them pre-war links from DU, Buzzflash, and Commondreams to show them that the Red Alert Iraq intelligence was invalidated before the war? Gimme a break.

This is why we had inspectors in Iraq. We kicked them out.

Countries pollute intelligence all over the globe. That's why you go to great lengths to check things out.........ASSHOLES.
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Fear Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #51
91. There's nothing to get in Iran, unless there's a bigger plan behind it
Allthough I ALSO think that they will, but it won't make any sense.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. Oil ~Oil ~Oil~ Oil ~Oil ~Oil ~Oil ~Oil~ Oil ~Oil ~Oil
Nope nothing to steal in Iran. :crazy:
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is Horrifying
I didn't believe anything else could shock me about this administration - but this is truly horrifying.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Horrifying LIES is more like it -- read this, everyone
I think this is the best and most likely analysis of the whole Chalabi "raid" and subsequent "fall from grace."

Who is Ahmed Chalabi?
by Michel Chossudovsky
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO405D.html

This is a backstory for potential war with Iran, IMO. Nothing more, unless it too is designed to "help" Chalabi gain credibility in Iraq (unlikely, IMO).
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Sounds Good
But who is this person?
Did a search in the phone directory and no one there by that name.
Did a search on the organization and could not find it listed anywhere.
Did a search on their translator(?) and there were thousands of them.
Looks suspicious to me.
They have a publication but so what?

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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. Controversial .. so what's new?
MICHEL CHOSSUDOVSKY, editor@globalresearch.ca, www.globalresearch.ca
Chossudovsky is professor of economics at the University of Ottawa and author of the book The Globalization of Poverty and the recent piece "Who Is Osama Bin Laden?" He said today: "The imminent shift from civilian into military production would pour wealth into the hands of military contractors at the expense of civilian needs. Behind the Bush administration is the power of the 'big five' military contractors (Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon et al.), increasingly in partnership with the oil-energy giants, which are behind many of the regional wars and insurgencies along strategic oil pipelines."

For more information, contact at the Institute for Public Accuracy:
Sam Husseini, (202) 347-0020; David Zupan, (541) 484-9167
http://www.accuracy.org/press_releases/PR091801.htm

'Global' concerns >>

Archives by subject and region
America's War
Police State
Globalisation
Biotechnology
Crimes against Humanity
Palestine
Iraq
Africa
Latin America
Balkans
http://www.globalresearch.ca/about

http://www.snowshoefilms.com/mchoss.html

Canadian phone book?
http://www.uottawa.ca/vr-recherche-research/perspective...
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #43
117. Thanks for the Reference
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. Right. So they broke this in the British press first to really fool us.
man they are getting SOOOOO good at fooling us.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
74. Actually, that's been SOP for the RW for many years
Hillary described it when she made the suggestion that a VRWC exists
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. The ever-rotting corpse of the Reagan administration...
The smell is everywhere.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
63. Global Research is an excellent source, BUT,...
,...I'm not so sure that the games being played (almost like a "shadow war" within our own goverment) are entirely within the neocons' control anymore. I am seriously beginning to believe that they are finding themselves facing far more opposition and recalcitrant efforts than they ever expected (being the "masters of the universe" and all).

This article certainly paints them as fools and, even if they attempted to spin this into another propaganda campaign to wage war against Iran,...given the clusterf*ck in Iraq and attendant prison scandal,...there is NO way that they would be nearly as successful as they were in propagating the Iraq war.

To the contrary, if they even attempted to regurgitate the propaganda from 18 months ago,...I believe they would suffer a form of blowback of the worst variety.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
118. or unless it is one more indication of how dispicable,
venal, blind and incompetent (and dangerous) the neocons really are.

IMO, way too many moving parts to this story for it to be simple subterfuge for the next invasion. Most of their trumped up stories have not had so many twists - nor so many players.

I think it is real - and I think that it has the potential to blow the lid off of the neocon tyranny. Think about it - in their blind passion to get their war on - they hook up with a guy discredited by the state dept and the CIA - but the guy can get the type of "intel" (hah!) they need to convince the public to go to war... and they get their hand selected puppet to install in Iraq. They may even know the likely source of the intel (Iran) but don't care because for the moment their agenda and Iran's agenda is the same (oust Saddam). But in their operations and embrace of Chalabi... Chalabi (or his man Habib) get access to highly classified intelligence and pass it back to Iran. So - get the story by implication - what kind of intel would Iran want NOW and to what end? So the neocons in their blind pursuit and arrogance... could have given intel that was used against the US efforts on the ground in Iraq? Few in the public would keep embracing the 'cons if that ended up to have been the case.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. Does anyone doubt the neocons could be snookered? (n/t)
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. 'The devil made me do it' excuse. nt
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:17 PM
Original message
Dis-information.
Cheney and Bush and the Neo Fascists pushed for this invasion and duped the American people into it, period.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I agree,
Are we supposed to believe Chalabi wrote all those policy papers too?

Puuuuhhhhhh-leeeaseee.

They tried this same shit with Saddam. Saddam had lied and tricked them into it :eyes:

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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
99. Yes and no: I think it is the CIA's plan to discredit Bush
Because:

1) Its clear the Bush Admin does not have the U.S.'s interests at heart

2) They fucked the CIA by blaming them for some of their fuckups and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY you must not forget the Plame/Wilson affair. Outing a CIA agent is bound to create a long lasting grudge, and I would be quite surprised if the CIA didn't seek its revenge in a big way

3) Clearly the Iraq War is a major blunder the U.S. must find a way out of

So the CIA says that the Admin was duped by Iran, IRAN FOR GOD'S SAKE, and all of a sudden any perceived credibility Bush had in the area of national security is out the window. Without that, he's got nothing.
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drb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #99
116. You hit it right on the nose! I'd hate to have the CIA...
....pissed off at me.
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Insider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
92. agree
is chalabi dishing out lucrative contracts? they get more powerful with every so-called screw up.

they are either very incompetent at good things, or they are very competent at bad things. after 3 years, what makes more sense?
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. What a good way to summarize, Insider. nt
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Almost Unbelievable, but not quite unbelievable.
Don't we make great patsies?
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hmm
Makes one wonder. Imagine what some moving company could do.

Wonder what S. Edmonds could add to this.

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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nobody could possibly believe this Bullshit for one minute...
The Iranians have denied it...but if true, we had better avoid war with Iran at all costs...they are way too smart for us...LOL!
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. It just CANNOT be their fault, can it?
So now it's all those evil Iranian's fault and gee, maybe we're gonna have to invade Iran and get rid of the evildoer's who started this horrible war? Yeah, I'm buying that :eyes:
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
62. nope, the dog ate my homework. blame-gamers@!
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. IMO, saying "We were duped by Iranians" is not avoiding blame
.
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jeff5 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't decide
whether allowing an Iranian Intelligence Operation to penetrate to the highest levels of our Government supplants 9/11 as the biggest Intelligence failure in our history, but sure as hell they are the top two regardless of order.

And we actually paid him to mislead us and spy on us...

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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Welcome to DU, jeff5!
U$ intelligence duped by Iran. I just love the excuse that Iran did it to them or how to admit to the world that they are stupid. Murikans will think: Oh! those mean Iranians, they fooled us!
Pathetic!
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
60. Actually, US intelligence had the goods on Chalabi from the gitgo...
It's the OSP that swallowed Chalabi's story, hook, line & sinker...
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jeff5 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
112. Thanks!!
I've been lurking for the entire Dark Age since * was appointed.

Well, if Israel gave them a hand we have the entire cast of (sentient) characters from Iran/Contra, except Poppy.

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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
86. So when do the Congressional Hearing start?
Oh wait! No one in the story is accused of getting a blow job! My bad....nothing to see here, move on and get over it.
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jeff5 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
113. Can You Imagine
the hue and cry if an Iranian Intelligence operation had penetrated to Cabinet and White House level back when we had elected Presidents??

The KGB, may they burn, never, with their best efforts, got anywhere close to an agent with Chalabi's access. He hand-fed Cheney's Merry Band of Chickenhawks (MBOC, pronounced mbaaaakkk) for years, populated their fevered dreams. The crap he fed them, and their gullibility in buying it (with millions of our dollars) is the reason we invaded with no Armored Cav to protect our supply lines (no need for that, they'll throw flowers), too little ammo and armor and Reserve MPs running a prison they were neither trained nor organized to run.

This may be in the Top 5 All-World Intelligence Coups.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is the exit strategy. This is why it will be important that Kerry
voted yes on IWR.

For the rest of the summer we're going to hear about all the great evidence that was planted by way of Iran, and, then Bush is going to turn it into an argument to invade Iran!

Bush's modus operandi: find someone else to blame for his fuck-ups.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. I've always thought Syria would be next because it is in the
right direction. Towards our other military base in the region, Israel. But, perhaps the plan is to launch that attack from the Israel base while our forces move on to Iran.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Iran is probably in line of site for a pipeline
just a guess, but since they needed to put one through Afghanistan...
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
101. No f-ing way we would ever attack Iran
They have an actual army, unlike Afghanistan, and it hasn't been decimated by 10+ years of sanctions, unlike Iraq. On top of all that, it is quite possible that they have or are very close to obtaining a nuke. And even if they weren't, you can bet your ass their Russian buddies would slip 'em a few as soon as any talk of war started up. Its just not possible.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. so, Iran is 'the scapegoat"? are they behind the PNAC Doctrine, too?
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's not my fault mommy
That bad Mr. Iran made me beat up Mr. Iraq. It wasn't my fault, honest.

And that evil prison building made me hurt those people, like in that movie The Shining. Can we tear down that bad building now, mommy.

I promise to be nicer if you elect me again mommy. But maybe I should beat up that bad Mr. Iran for making me beat up Mr. Iraq first.
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frankieT Donating Member (375 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
67. good comparison with Shining -eom-
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yeah, right. Blame it on Iran. Did they write the PNAC documents, too?..
And actually, it was the DIA that publicly busted Chalabi, not the CIA.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. found this when I went googling around
and thought it a very interesting opinion piece from the Moonie UPI

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040524-050616-296...

Commentary: Neo-con icon takes con

By Arnaud de Borchgrave
UPI Editor at Large
Published 5/24/2004 5:25 PM

WASHINGTON, May 24 (UPI) -- The portrayals of Uncle Sam were not getting any better. The
Financial Times' captioned its editorial page cartoon "Security and Stability." President Bush and Prime Minister Sharon sit in their tanks each atop separate piles of bombed out houses in Gaza and Iraq."

With neo-con idol Ahmad Chalabi now accusing Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet and the CIA of smearing him and retired Marine Corps Gen. Anthony Zinni blaming the neo- cons for the way they maneuvered President Bush into an unnecessary war, the 56-card "most wanted" deck of Iraqi villains was overdue for an American edition.

The neo-cons -- led by the Pentagon's Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, the NSC's Eliot Abrams and Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff -- first conned themselves into believing the super-con man's disinformation about Saddam Hussein's Iraq. They were willing to believe any lie provided it lent credence and support to Bush's war effort, guided not by the war on terror, but by the need to promote democracy in the Middle East in order strengthen Israel's security needs. This is where war plans went awry. There was almost a desperate need to believe anything Chalabi's disinformation machine fabricated provided it concluded the invasion would be a "cakewalk."

As the bearer of good "cakewalk" news, Chalabi collected almost $40 million from U.S. taxpayers before the plug was pulled on his ambitions to succeed Saddam. Even though the CIA and the State Department certified Chalabi as a super con man, the Defense Intelligence Agency decided he was on the level and went on paying him $340,000 a month until early May. Now everyone is running for cover.

<snip>

A number of retired army four-stars voiced strong opposition to the war while the neo-con ideologues were still using Chalabi and his minions to lend credence to Saddam Hussein as "a clear and present danger" to U.S. security. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the Gulf War commander, Gen. Wes Clark and Gen. Joe Ralston, both former NATO supreme commanders, Gen. Eric Shinseki, former Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Brent Scowcroft, a former national security adviser to Bush 41, and Zinni sounded two- and five-minute warnings right up to h-hour 14 months ago. After the invasion got rolling, they became circumspect, invoking the need to show the armed forces a united domestic front.

<snip>

Recovering from their initial shock at seeing Chalabi knocked off his neo-con-erected pedestal - - Newsweek's cover showed Chalabi through a broken glass frame as "Our Con Man In Iraq" -- one of their big literary guns came to the rescue.

"Our enemies -- religious fanatics and other advocates of tyranny -- have long dreaded the emergence of an Iraqi leader with unquestioned democratic convictions, someone at once deeply religious and yet committed to the separation of mosque and state," wrote Michael Ledeen in National Review Online. "Yet the State Department's and the CIA's Middle East gangs have hated him and fought him for more than a decade, because he is independent and while he is happy to work with them, he will not work for them."

...more...

and the final paragraph is rather disturbing.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. See, I think this is more like the truth.
Chalabi is a tool and Iran is a tool.
Chalabi IS being smeared (not that that is hard to do).
This is the CIAs revenge on the Neocons.
How do they defend against this?
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crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. It's Karma come back....plain and simple!
They deserve every bit of what they get and more!!!
:kick:
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
89. I think this is the right path to think about this ...
We had a similar discussion on this closed dupe thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Well then that last paragraph could explain a lot, yes indeed
Edited on Mon May-24-04 11:13 PM by nolabels
The unbridled support for Sharon, the destruction of the prison, who or what the Neo-Cons are really working on or for. This along with needing to let the cat out of the bag with everything on the prison scandal(the use of a distraction) Heck for all we know Chalibi has something on it.

These folks like to hide stuff in plain site, this would be a classic example of one of their F**k ups gone really wrong>

On edit: that was a partly dumb theory, but I will still bet there is something very funny going on

http://www.analytictech.com/mb870/howto.htm
(snip)
* Excellence Theory] Everyone has a need to excel in one area. Achieving excellence in any one area is enough to satisfy this need. Football players satisfy their need for accomplishment through football, so they are not motivated to be smart in class.

This theory also has implications for other groups of people, such as musicians or beauty queens.

Here's one last theory:

* We are jealous of others success. When we are jealous, we subconsciously lower our evaluation of that persons performance in other areas. So we think football players ask dumb questions.

This theory has some interesting implications. For example, because we are jealous of rich people, we love soap operas which reveal how unhappy the rich really are. Similarly, perhaps really beautiful women get a lot of recognition and status, so others will feel that beautiful women are dumb. This would explain the widespread stereotype of the "dumb blonde" or "bimbo".
Choosing Among Competing Theories

We can use the fertility and non-circularity of all these theories to help test and choose among them. If the theory is specified clearly enough, we can essentially present a situation to a theory and ask what it would expect as an outcome. The idea, then, is to collect a set of situations which the different theories would have different predictions or expectations about.
(snip)

Okay already, file me under :dunce:
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
39. the rather disturbing final paragraph
<<For all our sakes, we can only hope that Arab press reports allegedly gleaned from recently released Iraqi prisoners -- increasingly persistent in recent days -- that Iraqi-born, Arabic-speaking Israelis were among their interrogators are no more than propaganda. The Israelis have had much experience with Palestinian prisoners. But their use in Iraq would be a psychological hara-kiri for the United States.>>

Which goes stunningly with this photo:

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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. that appears to be more than just
"propaganda"

Hari-kari anyone?
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. Of course they are completely ignoring the fact that everyone knew the
intelligence was bogus loooooong before the war. This is yet another scam. We all knew it was bogus and so did the neocons.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. DING DING DING!
I'm unhappy to see this story in the Guardian. They know better.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. We only know about what they've chosen to tell us, I believe.
If you made a list of the things that truly slipped out, it would be very short.

Maybe the torture pictures is the only thing.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Iraq =PNAC imo.
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.
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Tom Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. the neocons have only themselves to blame!
they manipulated facts and fallacies in order to get us into this practically hopeless mess...they are the true traitors, they encourage despair and hopelessness. Just my opinion!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Look. People.
Chalabi being an Iranian double agent and tricking the
neocons into Iraq is NOT good for the neocons, for the
pentagon, for Chalabi, or for Bush. It IS good for the
CIA, who gets to be right all along AND to ride to the
rescue (and to savor revenge).

I know, I know, I'm twisted.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Especially since the CIA was more concerned about Iran and North Korea
from the get go.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
69. Thanks, I was starting to think I was nuts. nt
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
96. I agree - this is NOT GOOD for the neo-cons.
It makes them look stupid.

This won't sell even to the Freepers.

There is NO WAY they could ratchet up support for an Iran invasion, and that is the only possible motive for this.

I agree with bemildred.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. Thanks.
FWIW, the last thing they want is to invade Iran.
Iran is making threats as we speak. Iran will kick our
ass back to the Mediterranean if push comes to shove, and
millions could die in the process.

The main thing I'm trying to figure out is the degree to which
the CIA has tricked Chalabi and Iran in setting this up. Did
they feed them good info? I would have fed them a lot of bullshit.
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. No problem. I think we are validated - see my posts below.
Larry Johnson (former CIA - went to class with Plame, spoke before Senate committee on her behalf) is quoted supporting the allegation.

An INC supporter named Mylorie is quoted saying it is B.S.

Who would you believe?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Yeah, saw that, get some popcorn, this should be a good show. nt
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
83. "NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW" - except the CIA of course (nt)
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Oh, please, no more excuses...
they KNEW. They DIDN'T CARE.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. I'm going to second your post, with further emphasis...
They KNEW. They DIDN'T CARE.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
46. and again...
They knew. They didn't care.

The maggots infesting our White House survive by making things rotten.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
77. Great for a new meme!
"They knew. They didn't care." I will use this often (with attribution, of course ;) )
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. This misadministration is impossible to embarrass.
They are responsible for nothing, NOTHING. Now it's Iran's fault. Last week it was Chalabi's fault. Who are they going to blame next week? We knew the info was bogus, and so did they. This is bullshit.
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LeighAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. Iran or Cheney's Bloodthirst?
How come none of us were duped?

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Quiet!!!!!!!!!!
We are debating *co motives, this requires Anti-logic
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is beyond ridiculous...
Edited on Mon May-24-04 11:38 PM by Spazito
I don't believe for a minute they were "conned", they knew what they were buying when they bought it. There is some kind of inside fight going on and it isn't Chalabi/Iran vs the US, it is a fight within the Whitehouse and the bush admin. Everything else is cover, imo.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
33. Ok, let's consdier this slowly...
If it becomes clear that most, or even SOME, of the evidence that justified this war came from the Iranians... to Chalabi... to RummsCheney WolfoPerle, with Chalabi being an Iranian agent, then it's the biggest goddamn scandal since Watergate. In fact, it makes Watergate look like, in those immortal words, a second-rate burglary.

IF this is true, then Bush is finished. FINISHED!!! It isn't a matter of passing blame (To the Iranians?) I mean, if they wanted to start a war with Iran (first of all, them and what army, exactly) then they'd just come up with a whole new pile of nonsense and fake intelligence and gibberish. This, on the other hand, makes them look awful. Awful stupid. Bad stupid. No good can come of this for them. They have, at this point, more or less laid to rest the bogus intelligence arguments and moved on into a whole new arena of lies and deceit related to torture allegations, etc. They didn't want this. Jesus God, they didn't want this.
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submerged99 Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
82. I agree 100% percent
I don't get this arguement that this can somehow benefit Chimp and Co. Bush is starting to become ensconsed in the Public Mind as a bumbling fool. This is what people have been seeing lately.

1. Chimp stands by Rumsfeld AFTER the Abu Ghraib torture scandal breaks.
2. Chimp's "incurious" nature is responsible for the Buck passing going on in regards to the Abu Ghraib scandal.
3. Chimp can't even articulate a coherent plan for a future strategy in Iraq.
4. Chimp falls off his bike and scrapes up his face.

and now, it looks like Iran duped Chimp and his boys into invading another country on their behalf. How does that help Chimp? I don't think it does. If the argument is that we were duped into invading a country, sacrificing our soldiers, racking up an insane price tag, demoralizing our troops with overextensions, destroying our credibility by invading a non threatening nation.....then how is proposing another invasion going to be viewed as a "good thing" by the public?

We have to recognize incomptence when we see it. I dont think this is some part of some master plan by masters of intrigues. As someone noted earlier, I think it's a result of internecine fighting, within the administration, as the walls crumble around them.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
34. Ok so it is everybody else's fault
Yep, right, we get it

So now we have TWO intelligence failures under the Fuehrer in Chief...

Don't gonna help them, and time to write some ahem, letters to the editor.

Yep time to get rid of the whole key stone cop operation
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DianeG5385 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
35. Is our intelligence apparatus THAT STUPID?????
I think not. This is just one more in a series of excuses the Bushies are trotting out to shirk responsibiltity from their war of "choice".
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SandyUSA Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
40. This accusation against Chalabi is setup for attack on Iran
No, Iran did not trick us into the war on Iraq. Israel led us into this war, using the Zionist neocons named on 60 Minutes during the interview with General Zinni.

The plan has always been to attack Syria and Iran after Iraq.
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Rochambeau Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
41. Yes of course
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:17 AM by Rochambeau
Bush is caught with his pants on his shoes but Chalabi fucked the whore for free. You know what, I think that your government believes that you are stupid, you'd better get rid of it ASAP. ;) ( </ sarcasm . no offense)
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
45. This should be ALL OVER THE PLACE...ITS THE BIGGEST SCANDAL YET
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SandyUSA Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
47. Setup for attacking Iran -- neocon plan from before war on Iraq
Well, these boards move so fast, I had to go forward several pages to copy my post on this from before.

Neo-Cons have always planned attacks on Iran and Syria

Again, this Chalabi situation may not be what it first appears to be. Yes, he is a crook and a criminal. But he may very well not have been a spy for Iran. The Neo-Cons who are Bush's puppet-masters are probably sacrificing Chalabi in order to move forward with their plans to attack Syria and Iran on behalf of Israel. This has always been their agenda, so the spy for Iran story can be used as more justification.

This article is from February of 2003 (as the war on Iraq was launched) and appeared in an Israeli newspaper.

U.S. official to Israel:
We'll deal with Syria, Iran after Iraq war

(from an Israeli newspaper that often
reveals more truth than US media)

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/263923.html

Monday, February 17, 2003 Adar1 15, 5763 Israel Time: 19:57 (GMT+2)

U.S. official to Israel:
We'll deal with Syria, Iran after Iraq war

By Aluf Benn and Sharon Sadeh, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies

U.S. Undersec'y of State John Bolton
Syria and Iran are next.
(Photo: AP)

U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton said in meetings with Israeli officials on Monday that he has no doubt America will attack Iraq, and that it will be necessary to deal with threats from Syria, Iran and North Korea afterwards. (maybe not that last part... about North Korea... any time soon)

Bolton, who is undersecretary for arms control and international security, is in Israel for meetings about preventing the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

In a meeting with Bolton on Monday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said that Israel is concerned about the security threat posed by Iran. It's important to deal with Iran even while American attention is turned toward Iraq, Sharon said.

Bolton also met with Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Housing and Construction Minister Natan Sharansky.

----

NOTE: Sharansky has had heavy influence upon all the Neo-Cons and is a promoter of taking over all the Palestinian lands although he, like Sharon, sometimes pretends at peace processes that of course will never take place. The goal is to divide and weaken all the surrounding Arab nations by use of US military force.
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JackDragna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
48. We weren't "manipulated"
We knew what we were doing. This is smoke and mirrors to deflect media criticism from the president.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
61. No. Iran-Contra2: changing spy blame from untouchable Israel to Iran...
Of course this is a CIA leak. The CIA hated Chalabi.

You can't say we were conned into this war by Israel -
that's political suicide in Fundie/JINSA America.

But if you say that we were conned by those religious
crazos in Iran, then Bush is toast.

This is Iran-Contra 2!!

Bush looks like a bigger idiot than Ronnie Raygun!!

He was paying the spy of Iran to spy for them! The
Iranians are nobody's fools. They are fundies, and
they clearly understand how to manipulate fundies.

It is a great cover story. Of course the Iranians would
love the U.S. (Great Satan) to destroy Iraq (Little Satan).
And, of course, the Iranians will pick up large chunks
or Iraq soon.

But the best news here is that Iran hates Israel. When
this story percolates through Israel, and they understand
that Bush helped Israel's enemy Iran, the fallout is
going to be really interesting.

----

Everything we hear is lies. But this lie has political legs.
Its the opening gun on how Bush is too stupid.

arendt
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
49. No setup on Iran, unless this came from the Oval Office itself.
Because if you can read or count, particularly at www.fas.org, you know that we have roughly three brigades left in a ten-division army left to commit anywhere in the world. We're spread wider than Christy Canyon with John Holmes up her backside, and America is just as harmless to those countries which we have not yet idiotically invaded.

Sure, we might cobble together some spec-op thing which topples their government and gives some other virulent ideology temporary control, but that's all we have left. We can't invade Iran, we can't occupy them, we can't do jack shit about this in the short term. We just got served.

Mess with Iran without taking over that mountanous country twice the size of Iraq, and every buck-toothed redneck with his seventeenth century musket is going to roll out of that ignorant place like a hive of angry hornets. We can't possibly kill them all, much less pacify them.

I thought the concession was likely to be that chunk of oilfields in eastern Iraq which were once the main subject of interest in the Iran-Iraq war. Iran wants it for compensation, I think. I'll bet we just gave it to them, too, whether KBR wanted to or not.
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SandyUSA Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:00 AM
Original message
Iranian ignorant rednecks? Uh, isn't this a racist slur?
Excuse me, but not all of those folks are fanatical clerics. There are many well-educated and progressive Iranians who are seeking a more modern and open society. It will happen over time if we do not radicalize the situation by this continuing demonization of Iran fomented by the Neocons and ultra-Zionists.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
58. well stated
I'll have to bookmark this and keep it for our warmongering neocons..
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
88. "every buck-toothed redneck with his seventeenth century musket is going t
"every buck-toothed redneck with his seventeenth century musket is going to roll out of that ignorant place like a hive of angry hornets"

Geez, I had to reread that sentence because at first I thought you were referring to the U.S. South!
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andino Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
52. This is going to sound stupid but..
does anyone else think that the 'yellow cake papers' could have come from Iran, through Chalabi or is that too outlandish?
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
53. kick
:kick:
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
55. I don't remember Bill Clinton ever being out smarted by the Iranians
But then again it's always easy to fool a fool.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #55
65. I don't recall that Clinton was EVER outsmarted by anyone...
...particularly the most rabid of his rightwing NeoCon political opponents. They tried everything to get Bill Clinton out of office and failed miserably, IMHO.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. Well, there was the "perjury trap"
.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
56. This may be another attempt
at fingerpointing, but I don't see how it could possibly help them at all. It exposes them as the complete incompetents that they truly are.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
57. It would be funny if it wasn't tragic n/t
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
59. Hooray for the CIA!
I never thought I'd say that. :P

OK, my new understanding of this ugly situation is that the neocons, wanting a war with Iraq so deperately, were ready to believe anything Chalabi told them. How do you do that? Easy. Just take a lot of false info from Tehran to Washington. Brilliant! It's stunningly brilliant.

Elswhere the article says the CIA and Chalabi have been at loggerheads for 8 years over this crap. EIGHT years!

My favorite part:

The CIA allegations bring to a head a dispute between the CIA and the Pentagon officials instrumental in promoting Mr Chalabi and his intelligence in the run-up to the war. By calling for an FBI counter-intelligence investigation, the CIA is, in effect, threatening to disgrace senior neo-conservatives in the Pentagon.

"This is people who opposed the war with long knives drawn for people who supported the war," Ms Mylroie said.



Do you realize it may not be us peace marchers, or even President John Kerry (oh, how I wish!) who finally bring a halt to neocon hegmony? From here, it looks like the CIA. Interesting that.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. The CIA also appears to be allied with the DIA and a faction of senior....
...military officers who are becoming increasingly more opposed to the NeoCons and appear to be willing to do anything to get them out of power.

Additionally, the DIA and CIA are also gunning for the OSP, that NeoCon, Pentagon-based "intelligence group" that was formed by the Pentagon civilians when Rummy could not gain control of the CIA. The OSP is the group that has been paying Chalabi and passing along his "assessments" of the Iraqi WMD "threat" to the FratBoy Fuhrer and his fellow-travellers in Congress.

As to the report about Chalabi working with Iranian intelligence, I'm beginning to believe that is one more NeoCon attempt to push the U. S. toward yet another war in the Middle East...this time with Iran.

Kerry and the Democrats should stand clear of the unfolding NeoCon train wreck, IMHO.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #64
71. "The War Within" will make a great book,...
,...after the underground "good guys" defeat the neocon "bad guys" who have done so much damage to this country in so many ways.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
66. When you put an idiot in the White House
People are bound to take andvantage!
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
68. Pretty dangerous for the Iranians
don't you think? Since the people they are dealing with have Iran in their sights as well. And it is pretty irrelevant for PNAC which remains convinced it can push over Iran regardless if Iran thinks it is pulling one over on us.

Our Intel people are out of those loops, looking in. I would bet this is at least overstating the case for Iranian support for Chalabi's mission, Chalabi being untrustworthy and indiscreet to boot.

You might guess this is disinformation shifting the blame a bit toward Iran but at the least it hardly seems important since Bush would have gone in anyway with short forces. Luckily they did not try an earlier version of extremely minimal quick strike forces with little backup.
Anyone could have talked them into Iraq. it didn't take a tremendous spy operation, so invincible was American military might. Come to think of it Chalabi was pushing for the small strike force. Why? So the Americans would be mincemeat while Saddam eventually was brought down? Into that mess the Shia under Chalabi would come to power. Now the same thing is happening with agonizing slowness and Chalabi gets no prize.
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al bupp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
70. The Chalabi Follies
Here's an interesting take on this subject:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin /

When the Iraqi police and their American overseers showed up on Chalabi's doorstep, and proceeded to treat him exactly the way they have routinely abused ordinary Iraqis on a daily basis kicking down the door, trashing the place, and generally humiliating everyone in sight they were looking for Karim Habib, head of the INC's "Information Collection Program." In addition to charges of corruption leveled by Iraqis, U.S. government sources claim Habib passed classified documents and other tidbits to the Iranians.

It turns out that the INC was basically an Iranian intelligence operation, designed to rid the mullahs of their bitter enemy, Saddam Hussein, and extend Iranian influence into Iraq. Tehran did this in an aboveboard manner, with their open sponsorship of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), funded and trained in Iran, and now a major player in Iraqi politics and covertly, via the INC.

"There was an ongoing intelligence relationship between Karim and the Iranian Intelligence Ministry, all funded by the U.S. government, inadvertently," said one government source. But one has to wonder. What Patrick Lang, former director of the CIA's Middle Eastern desk, calls "one of the most sophisticated and successful intelligence operations in history," did not succeed inadvertently. Chalabi had to have some help from U.S. government officials but who?
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
72. First of all, the intelligence community is no friend to bush* at this
point in the game. I see this as a huge swipe at the misadministration, Chalabi and the INC were Papa Bush's doing. Second, the misadministration had to be in bed with Iran to a certain degree in order to attack Iraq to begin with. Remember at the beginning of this criminal war, there was a cleric who had been in exile in Iran for over a decade who was brought into Najaf by the US via helicopter. He was hacked to death in front of a mosque. International reports I read at the time, claimed that he had in his possession millions in US dollars to buy support in the area. I have no doubt the Iranians have played the misadministration like a bad fiddle in need of fine tuning, it's backstabbing the backstabbers. The problem with the PNAC is they think they're craftier than everyone else but in fact they are completely out of touch with reality. They have used the multitude in the US as a measuring stick for what people may or may not know, huge error on their part.
In addition, Russia has some high stakes in Iran and I don't believe they'd sit iddly by if the US invaded. For those keepimg score, Russia has entered into a nice little oil deal with Saudi while we vacated the AFB there, have been actively assisting Iran with building a nuclear power plant, Pooty poot snobbed Papa Bush during his trip to Russia and Pooty Poot has stated that sometime in the future international troops may be needed in Israel in order to establish fairness between the Israelis and the Palestinians and bring about the peace process.
Yep the PNAC has been duped in part because they were stupid enough to put documents online.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
73. Listen carefully and you can hear the voice of Curly Howard saying
"I'm a victim of soycumstance!"
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texas is the reason Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
79. i wouldn't admit this! no one will blame the scapegoat,and it only makes..
the bush administration look EVEN DUMBER AND MORE INCOMPETENT than most people thought! and that is pretty fucking dumb and incompetent. i smell another big dip in the polls for the chimperor.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
81. This would be hilarious
if the consequences weren't so tragic.
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
84. so being duped is cause for war with Iran?
as I read it, it makes you think of alot of angles. I'm still reading Clarke's book and there is a chapter called "the almost war, 1996" from his book(pg112) "In the eastern province, where most of the minority Shi'a lived, the US Air Force had...housing...(in)Khobar. ON June 25, 1996, it was attacked by terrorists.." evidence was uncovered that Iran's Gods Force and Hesbollah operatives were involved.(pg113) The next pages go on to describe that Clinton wanted to avoid war with Iran, and "Behind the glad hand, the Saudis had no intention of cooperating with the FBI. The attack revealed an internal vulnerability in the kingdom, the armed opposition of Shi'a muslims from the eastern province."

So Iran's been itchin for a fight for awhile
Bush has wanted to invade Iraq since inauguration and Iran knows this.

Now, did Bush and company go to war with Iraq on purpose as an eventual stepping stone to Iran? Or did Iran sucker us into a futile battle that would weaken us until we split, leaving Iraq to the Shi'a and friendly to Iran? Did Iran have something to do with 9/11, nothing like that in Clarke's book so far just thought I'd throw it out there.

hmmm...the truth seems irrelevant though, lies got us into war, lies are getting us killed, lies to keep us supporting the war...
My only question is what are our soldiers dying for? And as Moore puts it in the end of his movie...all the soldiers ask in return is that they are sent only when it is absolutely necessary.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
87. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Feith/Wolfowitz/Pearle/Libby...want to NUKE
They want to NUKE somebody, and they want it so badly they can taste it. They want to use their chemical and nuclear arsenal to "clean up" the middle East.

They aren't planning on needing a lot of troops for Iran. A couple of nukes and chemical cocktails would do their work for them.

THIS is the danger of these megalomaniacs....consequences be damned!



:kick: :kick: :kick:
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ilovenicepeople Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. MY First Post is a BIG FUZZY HELLO!
I just wanted to say rational thought must never be put into a museum.Heres a word that I have been using for a decade now I think it needs to be released upon this forum of free thinkers the word is FLAWGIC= anti logic. Feel free to throw that one around, sad to say it will probably be well used.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #87
98. I don't know if there are any barstool psychologist out there
Or any real ones for that matter, but that would seem the way most things run with folks like that. They are immune to others or to the thought of what them others would think their well being would encompass.

The way they are on the outs right now is devastating for them, they need to be kept down there in the dumpy outs at any cost. You can bet they will scratch and claw at any shred. If they are allowed to come up any again they will be much nastier on their way back up. These spiteful, indignant and vindictive people will be back with a vengeance (that's if and or when they can find a toe hold). Be ready
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. You know I probably could even live with one or two of them as neighbors
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:37 PM by nolabels
But to run things like they have is a travesty for everybody. I occurs to me the correct things are being done by others that oppose this self-described cabal. Found this little food for thought

http://www.merrill.ku.edu/publications/2001whitepaper/k...
Evaluating Research Productivity
no. 105 - June 2001
A Merrill Center publication
on the Research Mission of Public Universities

Panel of Researchers

A PASSION FOR REPUTATION, A TASTE FOR ORIGINALITY
(snip)
I Ill spare you his advice on choosing a wife - one key to research productivity - and turn to his typology of "diseases of the will" that I found illuminating:

"We have all seen teachers who are wonderfully talented and full of energy and initiative - with ample facilities at their disposal- who never produce any original work and almost never write anything. Their students and admirers wait anxiously for the masterpiece worthy of the lofty opinion they have formed of the teacher. But the great work is never written, and the teacher remains silent. Let us not be deceived by optimism and good intentions. Despite their exceptional merit, and the zeal and energy they display in the classroom, such teachers suffer from a disease of the will - their students and friends may nevertheless consider them abnormal and suggest some adequate form of spiritual therapy, with all due respect to their fine intellectual abilities" (p. 75).

Cajal classifies these diseases of the will as "the dilettantes or contemplators; the erudite or bibliophiles; the instrument addicts; the megalomaniacs; the misfits; and the theory builders" (p. 75). He is most dismissive of the contemplators as "likeable for their juvenile enthusiasm and piquant and winning speech as they are ineffective in making any real scientific progress" (p. 77) and he recognizes that "cold-hearted instrumental addicts cannot make themselves useful" (p. 82) and he notes that the misfits, who occupy a professorship "simply to collect the salary, and to enjoy the incidental pleasure of excluding the competent," are "hopelessly ill" (pp. 82-83).

For the rest, Cajal has some recommendations regarding evaluating research productivity at the individual level. Cajals recommendations ring as true today as they did in 1897. Cajal reminds the bibliophile that "We render a tribute of respect to those who add original work to a library, and withhold it from those who carry a library around in their head" (p. 78). He advises the megalomaniac to "tackle a small problem first " may not always lead to fame but the esteem of the learned and the respect and consideration of our colleagues" (p. 80). He notes that rather than bemoaning the lack of able assistants, or laboratory equipment, or government funding, that "dreamers do not work hard enough" (p. 80). And he reminds the theorist that "Theories desert us, while data defend us" (p. 86).
(snip)
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
93. This is a MUST POST over at FR.
Someone please post...
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
100. Look who's quoted! This IS payback!
Larry Johnson, a former senior counter-terrorist official at the state department, said: "When the story ultimately comes out we'll see that Iran has run one of the most masterful intelligence operations in history. They persuaded the US and Britain to dispose of its greatest enemy."


Guess the Plame thing didn't go away that quietly, eh?
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al bupp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #100
115. Bingo!
Never would have thought I'd be rooting for the CIA and State Dept careerists, but now, I say "You Go, Girls!"

Gotta watch out who you piss-off on the way to your empire. Now the admin gets the old water torture of "intelligence revellations", drip, drip, drip.

Maybe someday the spooks will open up the soap duckets and reveal what they know about where the bodies are buried.

http://bushbodycount.com /

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
105. Well, If Laurie Mylroie Says It's Not True. . .
. . .that's good enough for me! She is SOOOOO credible! Yeah, right.
The Professor
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
106. Neocons are "useful idiots" for Iran? "Persian Patsy" Paul Wolfowitz
Kind of has a nice ring to it.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
107. Oh ha ha ha just what we suspected (my husband & I)
Duped by the axis of evil number deux? Oh, the bitter irony. Joke's on us.

So Bush has not only increased terrorism, he is assuring that another theocratic Islamic state just like Iran is going to befall Iraq.

Isn't that special?
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. Exactly. The Pandora's Box his father was afraid of...
The irony is rich...

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. Some here have been saying that all along
The BFEE needs a new enemy otherwise their stocks will drop and the Empire that uses the military industrial complex as it's engine will fall. As of late they have been delving into some prison stocks with mixed results
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
114. Bush was Iran's stooge?
:evilgrin:
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