Scandal's fallout worries senators (a new bombshell)

[CShine]

Rumsfeld was uncharacteristically contrite in telling the panel that “I failed to identify the catastrophic damage that the allegations of abuse could do to our operations. ... When these allegations first surfaced, I failed to recognize how important it was to elevate such matters to the highest levels, including the president and members of Congress."

Now get a load of THIS....

Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/

[wryter2000]

1. Whoa, Nelly

The poor Iraqis.

I want Bushler frog-walked out of the White House.

[DenverDem]

4. Guillotines on the White House lawn.

Live on world wide hook up.

Still wouldn't fix the destruction of the American Dream by these treasonous megalomaniacs.

[Beam Me Up]

45. I've got my pitch-fork sharpened and my torch ready.

And I live on the west coast--but I'll be there!

[RummyTheDummy]

89. No, but it sure as hell would be a good start

NT

[TankLV]

136. If only that could happen.

I can't tell you what I really wish would happen, because I'd be arrested.

[LiberalFighter]

148. Try a prayer... praying can't be illegal

My prayer is...

I pray for God to protect us...

from Bush...


It is up to God to decide how he protects us from that monster.

[LiberalFighter]

147. Would love to see guillotines put to use at the White House

for the residents. Bet gw* uses the phrase "let them eat cake".

[wubbathompson]

5. If rape and murder are true

We are absolutely no different from Saddam. These would be the VERY same things we sought to "liberate" them from.

[Mikimouse]

20. As is becoming increasingly clear from our treatment of the Iraqis...

the removal of Saddam Hussein was probably the least interesting part of the invasion. Ihave never believed the BS reasoning, and will never buy it. We invaded a sovereign nation because we decided that they weren't capable of coping with all of that oil under their sands. Now, WE know how to deal with that nasty stuff, don't we? LIberation was the last thing on earth that this invasion had anything to do with.

[ldf]

42. "our treatment of the Iraqis..."

some would say, well, all of this is their fault.

if they would have just kissed our feet and met us with cheers and flowers, and accepted us as their lords and masters, none of this would have happened.

it's all their fault.

/end sarcasm.

[Mikimouse]

47. Clearly, they didn't read the memo...

:hippie:

[Old and In the Way]

78. Cheney's secret energy policy meetings will validate your hypothesis, I be

That's why they are fighting so hard to keep it secret.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

83. Agree 1000%. They are willing to do anything to keep from having to...

...fork over that information.

[Hand]

135. Hmm...

And this situation MIGHT just scare Fat Tony, Rastus, and a couple of other SCOTUS right-wingers into deserting the sinking ship on that issue. I'm assuming here that they have no genuine integrity, personal, or professional, of course...

:evilgrin:

[PaDUer]

84. That's been a known fact for how long...

I was just reading on a Russian board, Pravda, that * did it for Israel..Is this why Holy Joe has been kissing butt? Remember, the Israeli's were at the camp, was it NC?, training the guys? Training for assassinations.

[frank frankly]

99. you are exactly right

the reason it had to happen was the oil

halliburton could have just laundered through "missle defense" or something else.

we are running out of oil and using more and more and more.

LIBERATION WAS THE LAST THING BUSHCO WANTED.

THEY ARE INVERTED, BROKEN, INSANE HUMAN BEINGS WHO THINK THEY ARE GODS.

[davekriss]

100. Techniques of Repression

What we witnessed at Abu Ghraib are techniques of repression. They reveal the real intent behind the USG illegal invasion of Iraq, behind the spin and lies and propaganda. Occupation, installation of a puppet regime, "neo-liberal" oil trade favorable to U.S. corporations, the violent repression of the peoples of the land -- and, hey, we approve John Negroponte 95-3 to, what, duplicate what we witnessed in Honduras of the early/mid 80's? Incredible. Tragic. The saddest thing I've ever watch unfold in my life.

[davekriss]

108. If I can add to my own reply...

From Ani DiFranco's Serpentine...

<snip>

an i've been around the world now
and i can see this about america
the mind control is steep here, man
the myopia is deep here

and behold
those that try to expose the reality
who really try to realize democracy
are shot with rubber bullets and gassed off the streets
while the global power brokers are kept clean and discreet
behind a wall
behind a moat
and that is all
that's all she wrote

an my heart beats an sss o o o sss
cuz folks just couldn't care care care less less less
as long as every day is superbowl sunday
and larger than life women in lingerie
are pouting at us from every bus stop
shelovesme shelovesmenot shelovesme shelovesmenot...

and "big government should not stand between a man and his money"
cuz "what's good for business is good for the country"

our children still take that lie like communion
the same old line the confederacy used on the union

conjugate liberty
into libertarian
and medicate it
associate it
with deregulation
privatization
we won't even know we're slaves
on a corporate plantation
somebody say hallelujah!
somebody say damnation!
cuz the profit system follows the path of least resistance
and the path of least resistance is what makes the river crooked
makes it serpentine
capitalism is the devil's wet dream
so just give me my judy garland drugs
and let me get back to work
cuz the empire state building
is the tallest building in new york
and i always got the feeling
you just liked to hear it fall


So just give me my judy garland drugs...and watch the next tallest building in NY fall...on TV, the drug of the nation...let me tell you ladies and gentleman, we truly are at war!!!

(Latest news: Productivity rises by 3.5% yet wages creep ahead by jsut 0.5% ... where did that additional 3% of value go?)


F*ck, how many time have I repeated this quote...

Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there
government ends; the law of the strongest takes its place, and
life and property are his who can take them.
---Thomas Jefferson, to Annapolis Citizens, 1809


"Get off the internet; I'll see you in the streets!"

[Vitruvius]

69. Saddam was a BFEE/CIA employee. Of course the BFEE is no different

from Saddam. Who do you think installed the Baathists & Saddam in power, who do you think told them who to kill after they got power, who do you think taught them the latest & greatest torture techniques, who do you think sold them WMDs to use on the Kurds and the Iranians (and provided targeting intel to boot)?

Of course there's no difference. Saddam was their little puppet. Just like the enlisted scapegoats in the current torture scandal.

Will the puppetmasters ever be brought to justice? Doubtful.


P.S: B/T/W, Ms. England and the others were told to take pictures -- to threaten other prisoners with, per standard CIA/BFEE practice: "This is what we'll do to you if you don't talk."

The only surprising thing is that the pictures leaked out...

[keithyboy]

113. Won't these new revelations make Rush look like the bastard he is?

I hope they keep playing his remarks about frat pranks.

[Norquist Nemesis]

142. But but but

we didn't have all the information (because somebody leaked it, thankfully). I can hear Rush now..."Calm down, people. This is just a HANDFUL of bad people. You and I aren't like them. Real Americans don't do these things. And the real crime is the person who leaked a confidential report to the liberal media who was more than happy to show it to the world because of their hatred for George W. Bush!"

[wildwww2]

144. Rush is as fine American as Charles Manson. Or G.W. Bu$h!

Both are men(sic) whom used types of manipulation. To get others to commit murder for them. And Rush is just the head cheerleader for the whole lot of ditto-death squad so called Christians that root on this pathetic war crime paid for with my tax dollars.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Wickerman]

2. Hasn't there been something like 7 documented deaths

in US prison camps? More or less, I heard something on the news. We got a real shit storm headed our way.

[punpirate]

9. More...

... fourteen is the last number I heard.

[progressivebydesign]

46. THe number bandied about is 25 right now... N/T

[davekriss]

109. Nuremberg (n/t)

[saigon68]

63. Meanwhile back at the Ranch

[Jackpine Radical]

3. These pranks are

no worse than what Saddam did to his own people.
We're no worse than Saddam.
Maybe even better 'cause we aren't doing these things to our own people yet. Except maybe a few that deserve it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

8. ?

ok, so now we've come from "Saddam is a complete fucking maniac" to "we're no worse than Saddam."

That's comforting.

Oh, if you were being sarcastic sorry i didnt catch it.

[Shakespeare]

11. He's being ironical. Sarcastic, even.

That'll likely be the spin from the right, however.

[wryter2000]

24. Sounded sarcastic to me eom

eom

[Thor_MN]

98. Consider the * line about mass graves, torture chambers and rape rooms

From what I see, at least Saddam's bad guys buried the people they killed. Being covered with rubble was about the best that we did.

[Jackpine Radical]

101. Not true, Thor.

We bulldozed nice big graves for all those retreating Eye-Rackies we murdered on the Highway of Death in '91, didn't we?

[yardwork]

114. Not right away.

Several years ago I was staying at a hotel in New Orleans, and while waiting for my cab to the airport, I had a conversation with the doorman. He said that he was worried that we would invade Iraq. He said he was a veteran of the first Gulf war. He said he was stationed at the "highway of death." There were dead bodies in those trucks and cars for weeks, he said, rotting in the sun. There were rats and animals eating the bodies. He told me that the American soldiers camped right among the dead bodies, in the trucks all bombed and piled up on the road. He said it was the most horrible thing imaginable and he could not get over it. He told me that Americans had no idea how horrible that war was - all we saw were the photos on TV and the talk about "surgical strikes."

[skooooo]

6. where did all this sadistic stuff come from...??

I can't imagine that people were exposed to things like this in basic training.......did they just wait until all of these soldiers got over there and put them in an environment where this was expected, and rewarded??

Where did this come from?!

[wubbathompson]

18. As far as I see it

Military personnel are typically the dumber individuals in society and they entered a world in which they reigned supreme and like most people do, fell victim to their own shortcomings. I read somewhere that the typical human state throughout the history of the world has been one of oppression of others, with America and Europe just recently emerging as relatively "caring and free" societies. I guess what I am trying to say is that man's natural state throughout history has typically been one of evil and oppression and it appears that our soldiers, when put in charge, fell right back into the 15th century.

[skooooo]

32. ..that makes sense I guess.

..well, I'm sure we'll be learning more than we ever wanted to know before this is all over.

[ablbodyed]

41. First, I revile what has been done, but....

it is the height of smugness to say that the military are the dumber part of our society. I had that opinion until I went into the Navy in 1968 (what an old f..k I am!!!), but I was soon disabused of that notion. There are many reasons why people go into the service, and the military is a true cross-section of society. The reason that this has happened it that the fish rots from the head: they felt liberated to do what their inner demons told them to do because the immorality came from the very top. It's clear that this was systemic: they did what they were encouraged to do. The real crime is the private aspect of this: mercenaried have no consciences. We have to purge the system. All the Neocons should be imprisoned for war crimes. And maybe, some executed for treason. And the vile thugs of the lying rightest press have to answer for their part in creating a situation where many have mo inhibitions. I'll bet you that almost all of these people (abusers in Iraq) were fed a dialy diet of Rush, et al.

[wubbathompson]

49. I know I am going to piss people off,

but I really don't think it as much of a cross-section of society as it once was. Those who feel that sense of duty to volunteer are ever dwindling and I sort of think that those who have the least idea of where their life is going, whether it be college or straight to work, are the majority going into the military now. For instance, I have lived in 5 major cities and gone to a plethora of high schools, college and grad school and virtually everyone I know in the military or friends know in the military went in as a last option, because they weren't the brightest of the bunch. Of course there are exceptions, but I think a combination of lack of intelligence and the utter power vacuum in Iraq, as well as systemic faults, helped cause this horrific chain of events

[RaRa]

60. I agree completely

If you consider that many of the rank and file probably enlisted in the 90s...the great Clinton economy...internet boom etc...who the hell would have enlisted? Sorry but our finest aren't even becoming doctors anymore. It's all business. (OK, I know business leaders suck in light of everything right now, but let's admit that the brains in our society aren't going into the military anymore).

[Skittles]

65. it's easy to see YOU never served

I'm sure you had "better things to do". :puke:

[Nashyra]

85. My son is planning to go into the military when he graduates

from college. He just finished his first year of college with a 3.7 grade point average. He wants the military to pay for law school.

[wubbathompson]

117. Why not loans

I went to law school and that is a much more intelligent way to pay for law school in all honesty. Seriously, tell him not to waste time going to the military to pay for it.

[davekriss]

121. Given how the current regime uses the military...

...I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you and yours the best.

[fujiyama]

125. Is he seriously

considering it? Even if Bush is back in office for another 4 years?

If so, I'd have to say he's either seriously misinformed, just plain crazy, a freeper, or all three.

I mean this as no insult, but anyone that signed up to join the military since Bush entered office, really isn't thinking straight.

[teryang]

73. Good post, ablbodyd

...a systemic vacuum was caused deliberately by civilian leadership and intel personnel abandoning traditional command and control and the UCMJ. It was premeditated to get around traditional military resistence to breakdown in discipline. By having a divided chain of command dominated by intelligence, CIA and civilian contractors, an environment was intentionally created where torture, psychological and physical could take place. "Breaking the detainees." Such a policy needed unaccountability caused by the legal vacuum of civilian intervention in military functions.

Rumsfeld admitted the key policy evidence, that he linked prisoner/detainee maintenance functions under the Conventions with interrogation requirements. This is civilian experimentation on a political level. He called it "lessons learned" from Gitmo, another operation which regularly violated the Conventions.

The generalization that the military is dumb, or soldiers are dumb or inately sadistic is just plain nonsense. These people were following the example, roadsigns and orders of their superiors. The evil side of human nature will manifest itself given the right circumstances, such as abandonment of the Conventions by America's top political leadership and having civilian spooks not subject to the UCMJ controlling detainee camps.

First came Dachau, then came Auschwitz.

[Old and In the Way]

82. Thoughtful post, as usual teryang.

The facts are Bush-Rumsfield have created a special prisoner designation designed to evade the Geneva Convention and not signed on to the International Criminal Court. These actions send a very clear message to the soldiers that we are free to do as we damn well please. If the top sets the rules for no accountability, why should we be surprised when the soldiers assume anything goes?

This expose is simply a manifestation of a corrupt and criminal administration who are the ones who should be held criminally liable for what they've created.

[teryang]

91. Thank you, my friend

You are spot on with the policy set by the administration.

[DemBones DemBones]

94. When I first heard of the abuses, I said "That's what comes of

saying the Geneva conventions are no longer valid. You gave these people permission to be inhumane."

Hillary Clinton nailed Rummy on this today. Comments that were made against the Geneva conventions were foolish and dangerous.

[DemBones DemBones]

88. Good points, but is this true today? I know what the military was

in the fifties and sixties because I grew up on a series of bases, but I can't say I know what it's like today. The draft has been gone a long time and a generation or two has grown up without the concept of "doing one's service" to their country even on the radar, much less a reality of their lives. Without men being drafted, and men enlisting to avoid being drafted and thus get better assignments, I'm afraid the military may have devolved to a lower level.
I don't know that this is true, but can see that it might be. Let's hope we get some input from Hawker Hurricane and/or other recent vets.

[HawkerHurricane]

134. The problem of the military mindset...

And it is, indeed, a mindset.

You teach a young man (and women, now) that problems are to be solved with violence. After all, what is the military for but to use violence to solve problems? If the problems could be solved by other means, you wouldn't send in the military. Tell them that what they are shooting at are not human beings (not killing human beings is taught at an early age)... for the navy, we are taught that we are blowing up ships (no mention of the sailors on those ships) or shooting down aircraft (no mention of the crews) or blowing up buildings ashore (get the idea?). The air force is similar; pilots talk of shooting down enemy planes like their is nobody on them; the talk of 'delivering ordinance to the target' without thought of what is alive on/in the target... and never mind the bombs that miss.

But what of the soldiers (Army and Marines)? They can SEE who they are shooting. It is not impersonal. So it is made impersonal.
They aren't shooting human beings. They're shooting 'congs', 'gooks', 'krauts', 'nazi's', 'japs', 'spics', 'rebs', 'yanks', 'bluebellies', 'grays', 'redcoats'... because, after all, they are also taught that their country is right and good... therfore the other guys must be wrong and bad.
This is why combat troops make lousy policemen (until they've had a chance to calm down). It is also why Military Police are given special training; they are taught that the opponent (who might be on thier own side, after all) is NOT inhuman, but misguided and needed to be 'corrected'.

We have taught the soldiers, as we do in every war, that the enemy is not human... and then put the same soldiers in charge of the prison camps. We have told them that the 'rules' (the Geneva Convention) does not apply, for these are not enemy soldiers, people like themselves who are on the wrong side, but terrorists... worse than criminals (who are to be punished so they don't do it again), but dangerous animals to be used and then eliminated when no longer useful. So, we need to get information? Do what it takes. And when we have the information we need... what do you do with a rattlesnake after you've collected the venom you need to make antivenom?

I cannot bring myself to blame the soldiers. Thier leaders, the officers and the politicians, have put them in a position where there is no right answer... the politicians must be blamed and punished; the officers are the ones who are responsible... the poor enlisted men will be blamed. The officers, at least the senior ones, will walk. And the politicians may very well be reelected.

[snippy]

139. Well said. n/t

[Shakespeare]

54. You are wrong. It's war attitude run amok-dehumanizing the enemy.

It's a kind of psychological brainwashing that the military puts the soldiers through to desensitize them to the horror of what they're seeing every day. The same thing has happened for time immemorial, but there are cases where it goes much, much too far, and you end up with atrocities like the ones we're facing now. There are many fine--and intelligent--members of the armed forces, both officers and enlisted, and that's a horrible (and just flat-out incorrect) slam to make against them.

If you want a little insight into this, I suggest you pick up a novel such as Slaughterhouse Five or Catch-22.

[Skittles]

62. MILITARY PEOPLE ARE *NOT* DUMB INDIVIDUALS

there are a LOT OF VETERANS IN THE DU, MYSELF INCLUDED.

[diamond14]

81. this is another Vietnam regurgitation....as US Soldiers were caught

in atrocities such as Mai Lai, American citizens began to distance themselves by blaming the whole thing on low-level soldiers....and 'dumb' was one of the kindest remarks....

that is why rummy's got to go....it is imperative in order to maintain the 'honor and integrity' of the US Military....

if there's another Mai Lai, where colin powell (2nd in command of the Americal Division that massacred women/children) covered up the whole mess, and ONE guy, Lt. Calley got a few months in prison...


thank you for your service, Skittles...my own cousin, Charlie was KILLED in Vietnam, HM3 Medic, Silver Star, Purple Heart DEAD....

hopefully, Veterans will FORCE rumsfeld to step down in order to protect OUR military from the Vietnam syndrome....so many Veterans were shamed by Mai Lai...it took John Kerry and the Vietnam Wall, and establishment of relations with communist Vietnam, and YEARS, before the Vietnam Veterans could hold their heads high again....

[Skittles]

96. thanks

I'd also like to point out that a lot of the f***ing ASSHOLES who got us into this mess are CHICKENHAWKS. How bright are THEY ???

[yardwork]

120. I'm so sorry for your loss amen1234

I'm sitting here with tears running down my face. That usually happens whenever I start to read about Vietnam or visit the Wall.

It's simply not right to blame soldiers for the evil commands they are given. It sounds to me like these atrocities are coming to light precisely because many soldiers reported the abuses. Many of them say they were ignored, but eventually somebody listened.

The problem lies with George W. Bush and his administration, right down the line. Who approved U.S. money to be spent hiring mercenaries to conduct this war? Who approved the CIA to run the prisons? Who told the soldiers to do this?

That's where the fault lies. Making sweeping generalizations about the military is just as much a white-wash as saying "mistakes were made" and leaving it at that.

I want the people responsible for these atrocities held responsible! That means George W. Bush. That means Rumsfeld and Cheney and Rice and Wolfowitz and the rest of them.

[diamond14]

127. "mistakes were made" and leaving it at that....that's how Vietnam was left

dangling...there never was a real WAR and PEACE debate at the end of Vietnam....our Nation was exhausted, and humiliated and we just left it lay there....hoping that we would never re-visit those issues again....

and I was young, and didn't understand the politics of WAR and PEACE...just a little chant "old men make war, young men fight war"....

but today, with the internet and the bush* old criminals from Vietnam....now Vietnam-in-a-Microwave is back....the Iraq-mire is here....and now, we are the old people...we must STAND UP and take back America....

and I believe that we can do it...that the time is right...
we can make our military into a proud organization again...
we can take OUR country back....and lead the world again....so that the world ADMIRES us and all the greatness that is America....

last December, I read a lot about all the Democratic candidates, and I decided to work for Kerry....because Kerry sits on the apex of all the issues...especially the WAR and PEACE issues that never were debated when Vietnam Veterans came home....Kerry stands in sharp contrast to bush*....and he can lead us to greatness again....because he's been there and back...and STOOD UP on moral issues to Congress...Kerry will get us out of Iraq, he will put bush* minions in JAIL, he will end war-profiteering and tax evasions that are killing our country....that's why bush* is attacking Kerry on so many little things, his hair, his wife, communion, his SUV, his medals...Kerry has a great record, with little to attack...and the bushies will lose their entire war-empire....so it's really OUR struggle between WAR and PEACE, not just Iraq war, but our whole policies toward war...perpetual war for generations or peace...

it's time now, to take back America...vote for Kerry
http://www.JohnKerry.com

[saigon68]

70. A few leaders did FALL -- MYERS in particular, he's not real bright

He is a Lap Dog and when the rumblings of this started he should have come right out and took a stand--

but alas with his yellow stripe of cowardice in the face of adversity, he will have to just make do with the $1,000,000.00, a year job, at Northrup Aerospace next year.

[0007]

124. Myers is attached to Rumsfeld's hip - It appears to me that

Myers can't think on his own and is a brown nosing ass wipe that Rumsfeld needs to prop him up.

[lebkuchen]

149. I think Myers will go down with them, in the end

He's damaged goods, an accomplice with a full understanding of the grand Bush scheme.

I agree, though, he comes off as an over-bred lapdog.

[davekriss]

110. Anomaly

Let me point out that the relevant comfort of the "middle class" is really just a post-WWII anomaly, peaking in 1973 and in steady decline since. The few have regained their violent supression of the many in their rapacious pursuit of "life-style". Welcome to feudalism, 21st century style.

[leesa]

66. Are you kidding me? What the hell do you think America is all about

if not the worship of violence? We have been fed a steady diet of anyone not Mayflower American or not lily white is subhuman for decades.

America is an extremely violent culture.

[skooooo]

93. violent...yes..

...but people generally play by the rules and don't go around grossly abusing others and taking pictures of it.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

72. Read the leaked Army report on MSNBC. "Reading between the

lines", I'm starting to come to the rather sinister conclusion that the whole pattern of events IS IN FACT what was planned in order for the military police to "set favorable conditions" (i.e. break down the will of the captives through systematic torture and humiliation) for interrogations by intelligence officers.

Some veneer of deniability for the superiors (military intelligence, brass) will be attempted due to the lack of putting instructions in writing. But the junior enlisted folk, though guilty, should try to save themselves by exposing the role of the military intelligence, contractors, and their superiors.

Ultimately, the sheer volume of evidence of numerous acts will pierce through this "deniability", because we will either have to believe that the most junior MP personnel were allowed to run amok and the brass/MI knew nothing for months at a time, or draw the conclusion that the superiors either tacitly allowed and encouraged or even instructed their juniors in these acts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001

[teryang]

76. This is exactly what happened

excellent analysis. I agree 100 percent.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

80. In addition, Guantanamo is referred to in this report, as a reference

point for what happened here. It's pretty clear if you read this whole report and "get the big picture" that similar and/or worse is probably going on there.

Makes me now question everything one ever hears about Guantanamo. I wonder what the "pornography" that was supposedly on Capt. Yee's computer was, more "frat house hijinks" on CD?

[yardwork]

122. I agree. Next question: What were they trying to find out?

It wasn't WMD because the evil Bush cabal already knew they didn't exist.

Why were American soliders and mercenaries and CIA operatives torturing Iraqi children? What did they need their parents to reveal so badly?

[notadmblnd]

116. The US prison system?

sounds like this guard MP unit has a few prison US prison workers in it. I read here earlier that Garner guy was a former prison supervisor here in US. I wonder what percentage of National Guard Mp are US prison employees?

[Atlanticist]

133. It came from 2 main things :

i. a constant WH diet of "Saddamite remnants, foreign terrorists and thugs" when referring to ANY resistance to US rule;

ii. sending over ill-educated, petrified, fundy, "patriotic" young Americans packed with hardware.

With that coctail, what do you expect - comparitive bible study groups where fundies invite in the locals, string quartets on the lawn ?

[TankLV]

137. Could it be from the imported Nazi's at the end of WWII?

You know, to fight the "cold war" crap?

All those "rocket boys"?

And don't forget bushies grand and great grand fathers.

Ever wonder why billions of dollars were spent on creating all those top secret labs IN THE SOUTH when they had perfectly good facilities already estamblished at many universities such as Stamford, Yale and Harvard, etc.?

[gulfcoastliberal]

140. Interesting Observation - Op Paperclip, etc

We recruited quite a few Nazi war criminals (and helped even more escape justice) - not only for the roclet program, but also CIA. Henrich Muller, Klaus Barbie, etc.

[Shakespeare]

7. And it's worth noting Graham is a southern REPUBLICAN n/t

[AlCzervik]

12. Graham was also

a JAG, so i actually take this to be very bad news.

[skooooo]

16. what's a JAG..and what do you mean..

by "very bad" news...I mean beyond the obvious..?

[AlCzervik]

31. Judge Advocate General

just like the show. Military trials.

[Wilber_Stool]

55. He's a JAG Off

Judge Advocate Generals Office. Military lawyer.

[saigon68]

10. THE ANAL RAPE OF THE 16 YEAR OLD BOY IS AN A-BOMB

Wait til that shows up.

Come on Hannity you scum Bag tell us how it is just a FEW Pranks

[Disturbed]

22. Cover Up

Bremmer, the Military, and Bushco have been involved in cover up mode.

Rumsfeld is falling on his sword for the glorious leader of the free world.

[cliss]

34. Saigon, you're right.

We've got an atomic bomb about to land on the US. It's coming, I believe it's this weekend. I thought I heard it on the radio.

This should be the ultimate bombshell about what we did in that prison.

[saigon68]

68. This is the crux of the Hersh article in the NEW YORKER

The are going to try to spin this--- but we must spread the evidence as soon as it comes out. Then Rush and Hannity can FIST EACH OTHER, WITH RUBBER GLOVES, IN TIMES SQUARE.

[yardwork]

123. We've already heard about rapes of women and girls.

Why is the rape of a boy worse? Why does Rumsfeld report "soldiers having sex with an Iraqi woman" but "raping boys."

I know the answer - you don't have to answer. It was a rhetorical question. I know that most DUers recognize them as equally reprehensible crimes.

It just makes me sick that many Americans don't. That it takes the rape of a boy to get people's attention, while the rape of girl is just one more prank.

Sorry for the rant. Couldn't help it. This makes me so angry.

[davekriss]

126. Referring to the confidential Red Cross report?

I caught the last 10 minutes of Rummy's Senate testimony. Afterwards (I think it was CNN) alluded to the forthcoming Red Cross report, which will document instances of U.S. guards in turrets firing on prisoners for fun, killing a few. If this is accurate, it is indeed an atomic blast, as recall we hung people at Nuremberg for this and already documented behaviors (as to the latter, attacking prisoners with dogs, killings, rape...). This, along with the whole march to war, is indeed the saddest political development in my life.

[ant]

35. whoa

Where did that one come from?

I know Hersh mentioned the abuse of young boys in his O'Reilly interview, but I hadn't heard any specifics.

This is so fucking awful. And I'm so angry, and you know who I'm angry at? Americans. We had this fucking debate back when the admin was trying to argue that these or those prisoners weren't offically POWs. We had this debate about torture and the rest last year. Of course, the concerns of us freaky deaky libruls were brushed aside. What the hell did people think the govt planned to do? You don't make the sorts of distinctions this government was making when you DON'T plan to fucking torture people.

Ugh.

/endrant

[saigon68]

104. ITS LEAKING OUT NOW-- ANAL RAPE OF CHILDREN

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930 /

SCREWED IN THE RECTUM WHILE MILTARY GUARDS STOOD AND WATCHED. CHILDREN SCREAMING AS THEY WERE SODOMIZED.

[diamond14]

130. bush*'s 'leave no child's behind' pogram to go with bush*'s

sex-torture snuff program for POWs....


this can't be good for bush*'s re-selection campaign, 6 months before WE THE PEOPLE vote....

notice how bush*'s handlers have him away from DC, in a French-Canadian bus, rolling around the jobless rust-belt of America (where they used to manufacture everything for making AMERICAN buses and cars), giving speeches bragging about his job programs...

it's real lame...stunningly stupid...goes along with bush* great STUPID war....


my Senator, VA John Warner (reTHUG extraordinaire) looked real pale when he told reporters today that along with the soon-to-be-shown-in-your-living-room bush* torture videos/photos, there were also AUDIO...

AUDIO of the screaming/beatings will certainly clarify rumsfeld's contention that this was NOT torture, simply abuse....

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

143. Iraqi guards or "Iraqi guards" meaning Americans in Iraq acting as guards?

n/t

JB

[seemslikeadream]

57. The group will be remembered for what they are

Without the photos?


The photos....

[hatrack]

111. Oh, don't worry, they'll try and spin it, don't you know?

They'll say, "Well, as you can see in this video, the penetration here wasn't really all that deep, and I don't think that contractor really had a full erection, and besides, there weren't any Americans who actually PARTICIPATED in the anal rape.

In addition, a statement from Dr. Thomas Snotblogg, a noted authority on these matters and Iraq War veteran, says that he treated the 16-year-old boy, who wasn't all that seriously damaged from the encounter."

After all, if they're prepared to quibble and carp about just where John Kerry's shrapnel wounds were, and whether they merited a Purple Heart, what makes you think they're going to hesitate at parsing and snipping and doing all their typical reductio ad absurdam bullshit when it's "just some Iraqi"?

Pustulent, festering, maggot-ridden whores that they are!

[maddezmom]

13. jeebus...gotta give Graham some credit

Have the senators viewed the tape?

[hippywife]

97. Wasn't it Graham I heard today

say that the thing about this whole mess that bugged him the most was that the DOD had failed to give Congress advance warning on what was coming?

If that's the worse thing he sees in all this, I give him absolutely zip in the way of credit. So many of them, Lieberman, included are only pos--turing.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Dulcinea]

14. We have become that which we deplore.

How sad.

[zbdent]

30. Whaddaya mean "we", Kemosabe?

Oh, I see. You are referring to the collective "We" - the soldiers who represent us to the rest of the world.

(not an attack on you).

[Dulcinea]

37. you got it.

;)

[jdj]

39. Some of us already were

Otherwise the U.S. wouldn't be in Iraq in the first place.

And since when is it a prerequisite of dismay that something be caught on tape and released to the press.

It's obscene that Bush is feigning disgust at these photos, when the whole invasion and occupation has been disgusting from the very beginning. Thousands of innocent men women and children murdered didn't disgust him, and this does?

Oh yeah, a caller on C-span said "So these are the REPUBLICANS who impeached Clinton for what he did when what these pictures show is so much worse!" Excellent point... maybe that's what is disgusting to Bush, not the violence but the simulated sex. I am starting to wonder if this was a conspiracy of the soldiers to get themselves (meaning the whole military) out of Iraq.

I'm really starting to believe that this religion business, while authentic for individuals, is exploited by gov'ts to the nth degree, and that those at the top of the totem pole like the Bushes and the al Fauds have zero religion whatsoever. It's a strategy for mind control for these corporate sons.

[truth2power]

43. No doubt about it.

Bush has ZERO religion. Religion, for him, is just a way to exploit the ignorant masses.

[Beam Me Up]

52. Thank you! This has been my complaint about this whole debacle.

As bad as torture and humiliation is, isn't "collateral damage"--the killing and maiming of THOUSANDS of civilians, human beings, men, women, children, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters--all in the light of day, all for LIES LIES LIES AND DAMNED LIES--isn't that FAR WORSE?

And yet it is these prison atrocities that get people upset--finally get them to feel something, even if it is only disgust and revulsion.

I just don't get it.

BEAM ME UP!

[Salviati]

61. Here's what I think it is...

it's rationalization run amok. We've seen tons of pictures of the horrors this war has inflicted on the Iraqis, most of whom were undoubtedly completely innocent. But the mind can always come up with some rationalization, some scenario however unlikely, where the horror is mitigated, an unfortunate family who happened to be living next to a den of 'evil-doing terra-ists', a hapless victim caught in the crossfire, or the tragic victim of an unavoidable misunderstanding. With the torture of these prisoners, however, there is no rationalization. This was done out of pure cruelty and sadism. These prisoners were helpless and powerless and under the complete control of the soldiers who abused them, there can be no rationalization to mitigate this...

[Beam Me Up]

74. Sounds right. And I was just reading Pamela Troy's article

"Every Picture Tells a Story":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/05/07_story.html

She is spot on. This kind of brutality is going on in OUR OWN prisons and everyone is acting as if they don't know it.

[bobbieinok]

79. check out Leo Strauss - he taught many of the neocons at U of Chicago

He specifically says that leaders have no religion but use religion to get masses to do what leaders think needs to be done.

The stuff is pretty horrendous.

I saw at one internet site that Strauss ideas were now the norm in many univ poli sci depts. He had something like 100+ students.

[daleo]

15. Lieberman insults our collective intelligence once more:

"Lieberman, whose support for toppling Saddam Hussein dates back to 1998 and cost him any chance to win his party’s presidential nomination this year, used his turn as questioner to deliver an emotional speech justifying the war in Iraq and the effort against al-Qaida.

He commended Rumsfeld for apologizing for the abuse at Abu Ghraib, but added, “I cannot help but say, however, that those who are responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001, never apologized, those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized, those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Falujah” never apologized either. "

A nice non-sequitor. I should not have to apologize for hurting person A, because person B hurt me, even though person A had nothing to do with the activities of person B. To be explicit, the Iraqis who were tortured:
- had nothing to do with 911
- had nothing to do with Fallujah killings (this happened later)
- most probably had nothing to do with killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq, although even if some did, this was resistance to occupation, legal under international law, while torture is not.

Nice enabling Lieberman. Accusing Iraqis of perpetrating 911 makes about as much sense as accusing you of committing the holocaust in 1939-45.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

19. Joe

never fails to make completely irrelevant points.

[hatrack]

112. Fuck you, Lieberman

I'm sorry I can't think of anything modestly witty or stinging to add at this point, so I'll just repeat it.

Fuck you, Lieberman. FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Voltaire99]

118. Joe is a moral leper

And his presence in the party is to its abiding shame.

Shame on you, Joe Lieberman. Trying to blunt the edges of atrocity is as good as being an apologist for it.

[alcuno]

17. OMG! We're killing Iraqis?

Shocking.

[ChompySnack]

21. That's right

This is just beginning. There is no stopping this freight train. Bigger than the right wing echo chamber could make the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

Due to Bush's shameful and corrupt administration of thieves, our once proud America has been branded with the images of torture. We are about to be branded with rape, pedophilia and murder.

He is going down without a doubt now thank *god*!

It is outrageous the cost to our fine country the Supreme Court has done by installing these piece of crap Nazi traitors. They have been aided and abetted throughout all of this by a host of Republican lock-steppers who do not think for themselves and media cowards who only say what they are told to say! Peter Jennings rot in hell.

[skooooo]

25. Well said!

...took the words out of my mouth.

[truth2power]

53. I agree with you completely, except

for your statement that Bush is going down. If I had a dollar for every person on this board who has said Bush is going down, "for sure this time" I would be a wealthy person by now.

I have been in a state of disgust and rage ever since these atrocities surfaced, but I have come to believe that if Bush killed a baby on the White House lawn and served the barbequed remains to the press corps, his "base" and other assorted nutcases would still find a way to justify his re-selection. I don't know how it can get any worse than this.

[davekriss]

129. What does one expect...

What does on expect from a nation that tolerates the pestilence of the "School of the Americas"? We've long trained the world on how to terrorize and repress local populations. The only difference to come along with the Bushit* regime is it's use of private contractors rather than third world right wing juntas as its proxy force. We long ago lost the moral high ground. Good, though, to see this realized in popular consciousness.

[Wickerman]

23. Ray Saurez on PBS jsut commented on Graham

dropping that bombshell of the worst yet to come and how that will lead the news. Interesting. Next, Mark Shields sez Rummy might jsut be toast due to the fact that the war is going poorly - David Brooks even agreed that the means has not been the best and confidence in Rummy is low. shields says confidence is gone, impact on American psyche is damaged.

[physioex]

26. This is the sickest thing I have heard....

How are people around this country sitting around tolerating what happened? Why aren't more americans outraged? This country is going from the most respected to the most despised in less than four years. I am man and I don't cry, but this stuff brings me to tears when I sit around thinking about it alone. :cry:

[MikeG]

27. Hey. People died from frat hazing too!!

Oh, this is so overblown!! (*sarcasm*)

[NNN0LHI]

28. You do all realize that Bush will not be running for president, don't you?

He can't after this stuff. He will get 2 votes if he does. His and Pickles.

Don

[City Lights]

33. I'm sure fat tony will still vote for him.

As will ma and pa bush.

[spotbird]

36. Nope, he'll get 40% no matter what. Well, I'll take that back, if

Chimp himself raped the boy he'll only get 35%.

[progressivebydesign]

51. You forgot the dickwads who are being quoted as saying this is okay.

Never overestimate the intelligence and humanity of Americans. There are many, many people right now who are justifying these atrocities. Murder, rape, beatings, sexual humiliation.. they think it's okay to avenge 1) The death of mercenaries in Fallujah (which, of course happened AFTER this abuse started), 2) 9/11. Regardless of the fact that the Iraqis and Saddam had jack shit to do with it. We've lost our humanity, folks...

[truth2power]

56. Ha hahahahahaha! Sorry, Don...

With all due respect - if you lived where I live and heard people every day....still...talking about Bush as if he sits at the right hand of god... A woman told me recently that she prays every night that Bush gets re(s)elected. Yeah, a teacher with a masters degree. Ain't that a kick! I couldn't make this shit up.

[diamond14]

128. and this will be bush*'s campaign re-selection poster....rah rah

[TankLV]

138. Unfortunately, you are so very wrong.

They are all trying and succeeding in covering their collective butts.

The repuke hypocrits are at it in full force.

CNN on saturday is disgusting.

It's all about *'s chances, the "re-election", "how it makes (us) look", "the damage it has done (to us)".

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!

"Laura and I had another fabuluous year".

In a normal world, in the old America, not present day Amerikkka, bush wouldn't even be close right now - but he is.

Kerry should have 99% of the vote wrapped up, with the senate and congress thrown in for good measure - but he doesn't.

[PSU84]

29. What is the logic behind this statement??

"Worried about the propaganda effect of a Rumsfeld resignation, Sen. Graham said that although Rumsfeld “failed us,” it would risk sending the wrong signal to the enemy and “empower them” if he were forced to quit."

So, by not letting "them" force us to dump failed leaders, we're going to let "them" blackmail us into keeping failed leaders. Gotcha.

[progressivebydesign]

50. "ENEMY"

See. therein lies the problem. The people in that prison, while some may have been considered insurgents, are mostly people picked up on the streets. Tell me how a 12 year old girl in the prison is the "enemy". Tell me how the elderly woman, made to give donkey rides to troops after she was stripped, was the "enemy".

We were supposed to be liberating these people (which was bullshit made up after the WMD lies came out), but they have always been considered the enemy. That is how these assholes rationalize the abuse, torture, and murder of the Iraqis there. Our heavy handed tactics, and murderous private contractors have caused the animosity toward us. We killed their leader (though he was a brutal dictator), and we bombed their country into near submission... and now what have we done? To hear the incredibly stupid people say to the media that these people somehow DESERVED this treatment, that they are the enemy and this is war, makes my skin crawl. Justify it away.. by dehumanizing these people.

[daleo]

103. We have seen the enemy

and he is us.

[Philostopher]

90. I'm not sure the "enemy" he's talking about

is Iraq. The "enemy" they fear empowering is the sector here in the U.S. that sees this as a time of enormous vulnerability for the * Administration. The Iraqis have no ability to use this as 'propaganda' for any end. Somebody does, though. Hmmmmm ... now, who could that be?

Oh, yeah -- us.

[PaDUer]

92. Guess that he forgot

the entire world was watching today.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

38. Rummy didn't fail to identify the catastrophic damage

He chose not to...

One of the congressmen called Rummy "bright." He's nothing of the sort.

[Art_from_Ark]

145. The dimmest bulb on the board is "bright"

when none of the other lights are on

[madmax]

40. Who has these pics and/or videos now?

Did CBS give them a heads up on what other material they might have?

[maddezmom]

44. that's what I want to know...and who in the gov't has seen them? n/t

[troublemaker]

115. Dept of Defense has them

That's what Rummy said today. Also said no plans to release them.

Reporters will see them all, though. Soon. (As soon as Colin Powell or Dick Armitage can get his hands on them.)

[LizW]

48. I wonder

if CBS held back the worst of the stuff (rape, abuse of children) and used it to get Congress to pressure Rumsfeld to resign.

You know, "America will never have to see this stuff if Rumsfeld steps down." BUT, Congress doesn't seem to be having too much luck. Rumsfeld is dug in, he's arrogant, and he's not going anywhere. So certain Senators know that it's all going to hit the fan, and they're trying to prepare the public.

Just speculating.

[Jackpine Radical]

58. Why would CBS be trying to pressure for Rummy's resignation?

Surely not patriotism.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

86. The NeoCons are hoping that if Rummy resigns the anger will subside...

...thus protecting little Junior who has ALWAYS been in the loop.

[AliceWonderland]

59. I'm not understanding the shock

This has been a source of confusion for some time now... what did y'all think "war" looked like? Why else would humanitarian workers of all stripes be so horrified by the thought of war? Because they know what they'll have to clean up, what will be left behind, what seeds will be planted, what destruction and destabilization will occur. If the mindset is: we'll drop daisy cutters and DU and occupy a country -- whether or not lip service is paid to "liberation" or "spreading democracy" and "human rights" -- then that mindset will lead to a lot of people getting hurt. In prisons, on battlefields, in hospitals, in their homes... Mostly brown people, it would seem. Funny, that. Though a few white folks will get ground up too. And a lot of money will get spent. And a few people will get very rich. And oddly enough, these people will be connected to other rich people who go on chat shows and say that war is very very necessary and those who oppose it are dangerous ill-informed dreamers.

I mean, that's what war looks like. That's what war has always looked like.

[markses]

102. Americans rape people in wars? Geeeet Outtttaaa Heeeeere!

Correct. Correct Correct Correct! Thank you Alice. Finally somebody said it.

Rape and murder and blood and beatings.
War.
Eyes out and legs off and bloody knives slitting through cheeks.
War.
Sodomy and smashed skulls.
War.
Dead children in the streets.
War.
Flesh hanging off bones.
War.

What the fuck did you think it was?

Now, you may tell me that you served in a war, and didn't see any rape. But you sure as hell won't tell me that you served in a war and don't believe there was any rape. You won't say that, cuz you know it ain't the fucking case.

Rape and murder and blood and beatings.
War.

[Barrett808]

105. Of course, knowing this, sane people don't start them

Especially by illegally invading other nations.

[leesa]

64. Well, those SOBs better not cover it up like they have all the crimes of

the Bush Crime Family thus far!

[Alpharetta]

67. "Long Hard Slog" of disgrace

[Vitruvius]

71. Anybody could SEE that Rummy was lying his head off in his testimony --

from his "tells" and his body language alone.

And the video clips of Bu$h's talk that was broadcast to the Arab world -- it was so obvious that Bu$h himself didn't believe a word he was saying. And the U.S. Gov't was dumb enough to broadcast it thruout the Arab world...

The Bu$h gang are the most transparant & inept liars I've ever seen. They're a disgrace to us all.

[mom cat]

75. I think that Rummy DID tell Georgie. Think about it.

Bush has been setting the tone for abusive behavior since his first "Dead or alive" statements, not to mention his consistant sadistic sneer as he revels in the deaths and assassinations of the enemy de jour. It seemed odd to me that the first statements out of the White House were the claims of ignorance. Do you really think that Rummy and Georgie didn't have a few sadistic laughs over the troop's sadistic exploits? As Rush said, " It's just like a Skull and Bones initiation".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

87. Yep....Junior is, without a doubt, one sadistic SOB....

Remember his portrayal of Karla Faye Tucker as she was about to be executed? Remember that Junior worked with Lee Atwater, the king of political dirty tricks (the Willy Horton ad), during his father's successful campaign for the presidency? Remember that he has a reputation for getting revenge on people he believes have done him wrong? Remember that he gave the orders that sent tens of thousands of Afghans and Iraqis to an early grave, not to mention his responsibility for the American dead and wounded in the Middle East.

Subordinates tend to reflect the desires of their managers. Think about it.

[daleo]

106. I have thought about this

And you are right.

[saigon68]

107. junior's got an anal rape of children problem now

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930 /

SCREWED IN THE RECTUM WHILE MILTARY GUARDS STOOD AND WATCHED. CHILDREN SCREAMING AS THEY WERE SODOMIZED.

[fortyfeetunder]

119. If there is a jihad against US after this, no surprise.

First it was *'s idea not to continue peacemaking talks between Israel and Palestine. Now, he has mucked up Iraq, Afghanistan, and who knows what. And the Arab world is supposed to sit there and suck it up? I don't think so.

I won't be surprised at any retaliation against the US now.

[Lorien]

77. Lieberman; what a f*cking POS:

(snip)
Lieberman, whose support for toppling Saddam Hussein dates back to 1998 and cost him any chance to win his party’s presidential nomination this year, used his turn as questioner to deliver an emotional speech justifying the war in Iraq and the effort against al-Qaida.

He commended Rumsfeld for apologizing for the abuse at Abu Ghraib, but added, “I cannot help but say, however, that those who are responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001, never apologized, those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized, those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Falujah” never apologized either.

(snip)

Once again, helping BushCo perpetuate the 9/11=Iraq lie. Sickening.

[MisterP]

95. Bayh! Lieberman!

argggghhhhhh!!

[wabeewoman]

131. I wouldn't be surprised

if the Congress didn't decide it is in the best interest of the US security and all that this is covered up because this is doing irreparable harm to the US interests. It certainly wouldn't be the first time they tried it.

[daleo]

132. They will try, I have no doubt

But it all depends on how many copies of the incriminating photos and videos are already out there, in the wild, so to speak.

[Norquist Nemesis]

146. The question is

who are they really covering up from? It's becoming more obvious that the people of Iraq knew of these things. The people of the Middle Eastern countries knew of these things as well.

It's Americans who have had a blackout on such things.

[drfemoe]

141. Terror

"Clearly on the minds of many in the Dirksen Senate Building hearing room was that his blunder may cost him his job. But for a few hours at Friday’s hearing on Capitol Hill the question of Rumsfeld’s own job tenure took second rank to another: Is America losing the war against terror?"

What is it going to take for these clowns to GET A CLUE?
The *WOT* is a RUSE. I'm speechless.

Interview: Sibel Edmonds: 9-11 comission doesn't want to know >>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1558833