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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:38 AM
Original message
Photos show torture: CBS airs photographs of Iraqi prisoners abused by U.S
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 08:40 AM by seemslikeadream
Associated Press

NEW YORK - U.S. military police stacked naked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid, and attached wires to one detainee to convince him he might be electrocuted, according to photographs obtained by CBS News which led to criminal charges against six American soldiers.

CBS said the photos, shown Wednesday night on "60 Minutes II," were taken late last year at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, where American soldiers were holding hundreds of prisoners captured during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

In March, the U.S. Army announced that six members of the 800th Military Police Brigade faced court martial for allegedly abusing about 20 prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The charges included dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.



In addition to those criminal charges, the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Brigade, a senior military official said Wednesday in Baghdad.

more
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/04/29/build/nation/45-torture-photos.inc

Court Martial In Iraq

Kimmitt says the Army will not let what happened at Abu Ghraib just pass. What does he think is the most important thing for Americans to know about what has happened?

"I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand that is not the Army, says Kimmitt. The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect my army."

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks, George...
For making us "ugly" again...:eyes:
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
82. LETS IDENTIFY THESE PEOPLE


THE PRESS SEEMS POWERLESS SOMEONE MUST KNOW SOMETHING
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #82
122. Get the names
....put them on trial. If guilty may they never hold their heads high again. think of the untold damage they have done and the lives of their fello soldiers put in harm's way.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. HEY FOLKS MEET WAR CRIMINAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 12:25 PM by saigon68
Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines






At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor. The Mineral County courthouse in Keyser, W.Va., posts her photograph and those of other local soldiers under a banner that says: "We're hometown proud."

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow Member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.

THE FIANCE WAR CRIMINALS




Now, Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base - her family declined to say where - and is barred from leaving for anything besides her job. She has been demoted from the rank of specialist
to private first class. And when she calls home, she says frustratingly little.


On Edit: The Mother of this creature is exhibiting an anti-social pattern of minimizing and criminal thinking. I'd love to see a DSM diagnosis of both mother and daughter

does anyone not see WHY AUSCHWITZ was tolerated
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demoman123 Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #129
136. Good post nt
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #129
147. Punk.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #129
153. the photo's of this nupel pair having sex while making the prisonrs watch.
have not been realeased...but they do exist and the pentagon has them...after shamefully humilating and abusing these Iraqi inmates this lovely couple also made them watch as they fucked (sorry for the ugkly word but that is what it was)

i heard this mentioned only once on cable news
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. The CBS reporter in Baghdad this morning....
said that these photos have not hit Arab news yet. I find that hard to believe.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. When they do, I imagine all hell will break loose...
...if it hasn't already.
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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Considering our reaction when four mercenaries ...
it will be bad.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Agreed. I can't help but think of the relatives...
that stand outside that prison daily for word of their loved ones. This is truly horrific for them. The whole administration are war crimminals! :grr:
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. You got that one right
but, as usual, the small fish will be toast and the big ones will go the way of Negroponte and the other Contrists.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. Oh God!
I hadn't thought of that. That's so damn depressing.

:(
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Al Jazeera has it up...and took me 3 tries, because server was busy
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 09:33 AM by maddezmom
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
65. aljazeera?
Where are the actual pictures like the female soldier pointing. I want them to send to Republican relatives who NEVER look at the News and are so damned unaware of what is going on. [email protected] Appreciate you sending to me.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
137. Kick
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. haven't seen anything about this on CNNI or BBC
not saying they haven't done a story, but I haven't seen one yet.
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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
47. According to Danish TV..
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 02:16 PM by KDLarsen
.. the Pentagon have been on the phone to all the major newspapers & TV stations and asked them not to show these pictures, since it would be inappropriate due to the fighting in Fallujah. But as the reporter added, it won't be long until they air on more TV stations due to the gross nature of the pictures. So it looks like the media might finally take a critical stand on the occupation in Iraq.

Also, I find it ironic that these acts of torture took place in the same place where Saddam's soldiers would torture any opposition.

Edited to add the last 2 paragraphs - I was watching the reporter as he spoke.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #47
110. At 5:30 AM CST the Pentagon Black out is Holding
The photos are no where.

Save these to your hard drives I have a feeling they are all going to disappear.

MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
83. al jazeera has not posted them
They have a really TAME ARTICLE there on this

TAME AS HELL
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. I wonder---there's a thread about the US pressuring Qatar
to restrain Aljazeera. Could pressure have been applied so instantly? Guess I'm going to have to try to hunt down that thread to see if there's a connection.

I couldn't monitor every channel, but it seemed that only MSNBC picked this story up--they showed 3 of the pictures. They also had 2 people on to discuss it. One, Andrew Apostolou (Foundation for the Defense of Democracy--whatever that is), argued that Saddam was worse. But the other, Rahul Mahajan (author of "Full Spectrum Dominance, US Power in Iraq and Beyond") argued that it is "not an isolated case." And he said he had heard many horror stories of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners and civilians. He sounded very credible.

If this IS the tip of an iceberg (not just a few bad apples), this could get even worse. And I think most people won't doubt the truth of the stories--because the stories (with pictures) will confirm a creeping suspicion they already have about the brutality of the overwhelming power of the US military.

I wonder what argument the US is using to urge censorship? Telling this story equals aiding the enemy? Or maybe it's not arguments, but threats...
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #90
105. Here's how its going to be spun and controlled
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #105
121. Vile. Such disregard for common humanity
what a vile display of the worst in human nature. No morality. What would Jesus do?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. Had to share this observation from a recently new poster dr. Nick


drNick (2 posts) Fri Apr-30-04 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #8

106. Last picture = Passion of the Christ?


Thorns replaced by electrodes, whipping replaced by sodomy, somebody contact Mel Gibson.



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DavidFL Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #90
109. FDD is a neo-con front group...
and Apostolou is nothing more than a neo-con apologist, so it would make sense that he would chose the "Saddam is worse" route. He's shown up on CNN, too.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #83
120. ....and there has been a big campaign about Al Jazeera
having no creditability, but fail to about talk FAUX and the Washington Times.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
107. Something's not right here
Something big is going on behind the scenes. This stuff should be all over the Arab world---NONE of it is.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #107
138. iT IS NOW a LANDSLIDE
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MSgt213 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Any one who thinks the Iraqi people will ever trust us is out of their
minds.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. duplicate thread
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. You're not gonna like this
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 09:48 AM by seemslikeadream












Thanks to Saigon68 for the photos
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. When male troops display female prisoners naked ...
... is it worse than when female troops do this to males? So much for the myth of gender superiority.
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drNick Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
106. Last picture = Passion of the Christ?
Thorns replaced by electrodes, whipping replaced by sodomy, somebody contact Mel Gibson.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
111. ACCORDING TO DAN RATHER
THERE ARE OTHER PICTURES OF WIRES ATTACHED TO GENITALS AND DOGS BEING USED TO "EXTRACT CONFESSIONS"


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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. I missed 60 minutes, but saw the pics on MSNBC this morning.
I broke into tears.

:cry:

What horrible abuses. Those criminals have lost all sense of their humanity.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It really makes one think
there are just two completely separate human being races on this planet.
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gypsy11 Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I've often thought that myself. n/t
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Forces me to accept that "evil" does exist,...
,...in the hearts and minds of certain human beings. The only "subhumans" in this world are those who treat other peoples as "subhuman". That is the epitome of evil.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Just think about the treatment of
that poor dairy farmer (mercenary) or any of our soldiers will get now?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I have been thinking the same thing....
it does not bode well for the current hostages and any future US hostages. I would not be suprised if we saw a new wave of kidnappings after this. Good God the US needs to get the Hell outs there!
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. I agree...there's just no understanding of twisted minds...
It's just beyond me to even comprehend how anyone would be apart of something so shameful. And to think, if they die, they still get a an American flag draped casket, they should be thrown in a mental prison. That's the future republicians folks.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. maybe one human race and the rest are subhuman....
I am so sickened by this...it is heartbreaking the suffering these young men have endured at the hands of thier "liberators".

What a fu*king joke.....and that female officer? I am appalled beyond words.

We need to get out now and leave the ones who did this crap there at the mercy of the people they abused and tortured. See how they like the same treatment done to them.

I am so angry and upset right now......I am just really really upset...
How can peoplel do this to other human beings? How?? I can't fathom....

DR
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #43
91. it's totally sickening
these are AMERICANS committing these atrocities. as such, ALL of us americans will suffer the consequences of this and will be pegged as capable of doing the same.

i hang my head in shame at these animals....especially the women.:-(
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. Military Justice for Karpinski
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 09:23 AM by alarcoeg
Brigadier General Janis Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.

The army confirmed the suspension after US television broadcast images of US soldiers allegedly abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.


...snip...

CBS said an army investigation had concluded that Gen Karpinski's "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.

The army has made no formal charges against her. She is the subject of an investigation that could result in a written reprimand, AFP news agency reported.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3669331.stm

edited to emphasize last paragraph
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. "A written reprimand"???
That's it?

Good grief!!!
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. those pictures are just the ones they would show
apparently they used dogs on them, too.

oh we are so doomed.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
92. dogs?
omfg...these "soldiers" deserve to have their asses in the brig for YEARS.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. they deserve to have the same thing done to them...
let them know how it feels to have so humilated and degraded other human beings.

There is no way under the sun to excuse any of this behavior. None.

beyond shameful....is this what we teach young people- by example or by simply looking the other way?

DR
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. A written reprimand?!!!


Irma Grese was by far the most notable of the female Nazi war criminals.
She became the youngest woman executed under British jurisdiction in the 20th century when she went to the gallows on 13th December 1945.

<snip>

Many of the survivors of Belsen testified against Irma at her trial. (see photo) They spoke of the beatings and the arbitrary shooting of prisoners, the savaging of prisoners by her trained and half starved dogs, of her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers and of her sexual pleasure at these acts of cruelty. She habitually wore heavy boots and carried a whip and a pistol. (see photo above)
She was alleged to have used both physical and emotional methods to torture the camp's inmates and seemed to enjoy shooting prisoners in cold blood. It was claimed that she beat some of the women to death and whipped others mercilessly using a plaited cellophane whip. Survivors reported that she seemed to derive great sexual pleasure from these acts of sadism.
In her hut was found the skins of three inmates that she had had made into lamp shades.
She said in her defense that "Himmler is responsible for all that has happened but I suppose I have as much guilt as the others above me".
Not surprisingly she was found guilty and along with Kramer and 11 other defendants, she was sentenced to death by hanging. She showed little emotion throughout her trail and none when the death sentence was translated into German for her. (The other defendants received various prison terms)



http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6142/irma.html
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. "we had no training"
is the excuse offered by one soldier. Did they not learn about basic human decency anywhere? It's not rocket science, but empathy. That excuse wouldn't have cut it for Saddam's butchers and if we let it go for our troops, we are no better.
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octavius Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #60
126. Lack of training is not a valid excuse
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 09:21 AM by octavius
Every soldier receives training in the laws and treaties governing the conduct of war (i.e. Geneva Convention). Part of that training includes how to handle prisoners of war. Although "naked pyramids" and "dog attacks" weren't specifically discussed, when I received the instruction in my infantry basic (years ago), it was pretty clear that enemy POWs were to be treated with respect - especially once they were off the battlefield: firmly but fairly. Anything else is criminal (a war crime).

Being members of a military police company, it stands to reason that these soldiers received more advanced training on how to handle prisoners than an infantryman (the infantry's primary function with prisoners is capturing them, moving them to a safe area, and handing them off to the MPs). Citing a "lack of training" is utterly inexcusable and undoubtedly untrue.

The icing on the cake is that the scumbag that claims he had not received training is a corrections officer in his civilian job. Even IF the military hadn't trained him (which is unlikely), he should have known better from his day job - unless that's what he does in Virginia, too.

From CBS:

We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations, says Frederick. And it just wasn't happening."

Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. Hes a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as one of the best.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #126
158. ...which only makes you wonder
exactly what his conduct was like in the US prison in which he worked.
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
142. Karpinski is speaking out against these abuses...
and it may be that that's getting her in trouble with the higher ups. See: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0502-03.htm
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Seeing those ferocious, broad grins, and gleeful eyes
tells me all the hard work by our propaganda mills, the constant barrage of disrespect, contempt, loathing pouring through every word uttered by any of our most adament chickenhawks in their eternal remarks to the cameras paid off.

Simple American soldiers "got the message." These captured people apparently don't deserve respect, are NOT as valuable as Americans, are there for their amusement, deserve to be violated and mocked.

The Bush Doctrine PREVAILS! Our Right Wing Rules.

They don't need to show respect to others, as they don't intend to ever need respect from anyone else. They will always be the ones holding the weapons, apparently: yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

I hope that the memory of these photos will NEVER dim, and that there will ALWAYS be someone who will be glad to come forward with a copy of them when the "guards" are 50, 60, 70, 80 years old, and "share" it with the entire world, over and over again.


Doooooooo unto oooootherrrrs, as youuuuu wouuuuuld dooooo untooo themmmmmm.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
16. Is this the prison that was attacked last week?
Wow, this just hit me. Is this where so many prisoners were killed in an attack? Just prisoners, no guards?

This is way too freaky!
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. Let us not forget they have an American hostage or two.
What are they trying to do? Incite rage amongst the Iraqis. I could just hear the screaming of Americans if they do something similiar to our GI's. They would be screaming for every Iraqi head we could get. Could that be the plan?
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
24. This is exactly the kind of human rights abuses that
Boo$h's appointed Ambassador to Iraq has sponsored in the past.

Sickened me to see those pictures.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq
Iraqi ambassador pick grilled on hand-over




By Steven Weisman
The New York Times

WASHINGTON -- President Bush's nominee for ambassador to Iraq on Tuesday defended the limits that would be placed on Iraqi self-rule, particularly those on control over security forces, asserting that after June 30 Iraqis will have "a lot more sovereignty than they have right now."
Facing skeptical questions about the new constraints emerging in the long-planned transfer of power before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the nominee, John Negroponte, said he saw his major challenge as trying to avert conflicts if the new Iraqi government objected to U.S. military actions. "These are the kinds of questions that I think our diplomacy is going to have to deal with," said Negroponte, who is now ambassador to the United Nations.
The toughest questions came from Democrats, but all the senators said they would support Negroponte's confirmation, which the committee could approve on Thursday. Senate aides said Negroponte could be confirmed by the full Senate as early as next week.
Negroponte said that any decisions on whether to attack rebel strongholds, as the United States is threatening now in Fallujah and Najaf, would require "great political sensitivity" even though American s will nominally be in charge of such decisions.

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04282004/nation_w/161439.asp





Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq


Dems Ignore Negroponte's Death Squad Past, Look to Confirm Iraq Appointmen


As Negroponte, responded to Hagel, he was interrupted by an activist, Andres Conteris of Non-violence International.

Andres Conteris, is program director for Latin America and the Caribbean for the human rights group Non-violence International. He disrupted yesterday's Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on John Negroponte's appointment as US ambassador to Iraq.

As ambassador to Honduras, Negroponte played a key role in coordinating US covert aid to the Contra death squads in Nicaragua and shoring up a CIA-backed death squad in Honduras. During his term as ambassador there, diplomats alleged that the embassy's annual human rights reports made Honduras sound more like Norway than Argentina. In a 1995 series, the Baltimore Sun detailed the activities of a secret CIA-trained Honduran army unit, Battalion 3-16, that used "shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners often were kept naked and, when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves." In 1994, Honduras's National Commission for the Protection of Human Rights reported that it was officially admitted that 179 civilians were still missing.

A former official who served under Negroponte says he was ordered to remove all mention of torture and executions from the draft of his 1982 report on the human rights situation in Honduras. During Negroponte's tenure, US military aid to Honduras skyrocketed from $3.9 million to over $77 million. Much of this went to ensure the Honduran army's loyalty in the battle against popular movements throughout Central America.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/040428.html

Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq




Negroponte's "embassy" in Baghdad will, according to press reports, constitute the largest US "embassy staff" in the world with some 3000 employees, including up to 1,000 Americans.


Yet according to a four-part series in the Baltimore Sun in 1995, in 1982 alone the Honduran press ran 318 stories of murders and kidnappings by the Honduran military.

Opponents of Negroponte are demanding that all Senators read the full report before voting on his nomination.http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ROF111A.html
In a cruel irony, the Bush administration has appointed a bona fide "terrorist" to wage its "war on terrorism" in Iraq.


It should come as no surprise that "on the day he was appointed to Iraq, Honduras decided to bring its troops in Iraq home." (Financial Times, April 21, 2004)

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=1189



Face-off: Bush's Foreign Policy Warriors


On August 27, 1997, CIA Inspector General Frederick P. Hitz released a 211-page classified report entitled "Selected Issues Relating to CIA Activities in Honduras in the 1980's." This report was partly declassified on Oct. 22, 1998, in response to demands by the Honduran human rights ombudsman. Opponents of Negroponte are demanding that all Senators read the full report before voting on his nomination.

Reich, unlike Negroponte, is primarily a lobbyist and anti-Castro activist rather than a diplomat. He is director of the Washington-based Center for a Free Cuba and works for some of America's favorite industries: liquor (Bacardi), tobacco (British-American Tobacco), and weapons (Lockheed Martin). He also serves as vice-chairman of the Worldwide Responsible Apparel Program, or WRAP, an apparel industry-backed group characterized by union activists as an artifice for clothing importers to avoid serious scrutiny of their factories in developing countries.

In the 1980s, he headed a propaganda department in the State Department called the Office of Public Diplomacy. This unit, staffed with CIA and Pentagon psychological warfare specialists, reported to Oliver North. The function of the operation was to win support for administration policy in Central America. They wrote op-eds under the name of Nicaraguan rebel leaders and attacked those who differed with Reagan's policies. The Congressional investigation of the Iran-contra scandal identified numerous illegalities which led to the closure of the Office of Public Diplomacy.

Reich followed up these activities by serving as ambassador to Venezuela from 1986-89, at the height of the Iran-contra scandal. The Venezuelan government tried unsuccessfully to block his nomination.

While working for Bacardi, he successfully lobbied to slip Section 211 into the 1998 Omnibus Appropriations Bill, thus stripping Cuba of trademark protection. Ironically, he will be overseeing the Helms-Burton Act, which he helped to draft, which the administration has just decided not to carry into effect.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ROF111A.html


NEGROPONTE - Sleeping Ambassador or Death Squad Diplomat?

The widespread use of American aerial surveillance to direct the Contra murderers to villages where only women and children were present to be killed, the routine use of torture, the encouragement of drug-smuggling into the U.S. to provide funding for the U.S.-backed forces all were revealed only after Negroponte had left his post as U.S. Ambassador to the Honduras. And who could forget the Honduran Anti-communist Liberation Army's ever popular practice of dropping victims from helicopters while they were in flight?

Make no mistake about it -- both Iraqi rebels and Al Qaeda terrorists see Negroponte's appointment as the first stage in implementing a policy of covert violence against their right to sovereignty and will effectively use it to recruit and incite radicals to commit more acts of violence against us. It's no coincidence that our Office of Homeland Security issued a heightened security alert just as Bush announced his plans for Negroponte.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/04/con04178.html

US Martyrs Pose Questions for Negroponte
October 28, 2003
By TONI SOLO

US nuns murdered in El Salvador 4

In 1981, a couple of decades before Rachel Corrie was murdered, the bodies of four women were found in a shallow grave in a rural district not far from San Salvador, El Salvador's capital. They had been raped and shot dead by members of the Salvadoran army on the orders of senior officers. In the context of the time, the atrocity would hardly have merited reporting. But the women were United States citizens. Two were religious sisters of the New York based Maryknoll order, Ita Ford and Maureen Clarke. One was an Ursuline Sister, Dorothy Kazel, the fourth a lay missioner, Jean Donovan. By virtue of their nationality, the story did make the news, just--the back page of the New York Times, to that paper's eternal shame.

Those four women had helped defend Salvadorans from the terror unleashed against their own people by the Salvadoran government with support from the United States administrations of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. They gave their lives working alongside vulnerable people and communities in El Salvador. The murders followed the assassination in 1980 of Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero. The women's deaths were manipulated by the US government and its ever-pliant news media. The full facts took years to emerge. US ambassador to the UN, Jean Kirkpatrick, falsely accused the women of having supported the Salvadoran armed opposition, the FMLN. In fact, the four women were passionate advocates of non-violence, accompanying the rural villagers they served while caught up in a violent civil war.

Ambassador Kirkpatrick's statements on the case of the four women were to be expected from an unrepentant supporter of the bloodthirsty Argentinian military dictatorship. Her successor at the UN was Vernon Walters, former deputy director of the CIA, co-organiser of the continent wide terrorist blueprint Plan Condor and promoter of Ronald Reagan's terrorist war against Nicaragua. In 1986 Vernon Walters threw in the face of the UN his government's rejection of the International Court of Justice verdict convicting the US of terrorism against Nicaragua.

Kirkpatrick's and Walters' apologetics for mass murder helped John Negroponte, then US ambassador to Honduras, cover up his support for the systematic forced disappearances used to destroy Honduran civilian opposition to the presence of Contra bases in their country. Thomas Pickering, US ambassador to El Salvador at the time, also gave misleading information on local army and paramilitary murders, probably an essential qualification for his subsequent posting in 1989 as US ambassador to the UN, taking over from Vernon Walters.

Jean Kirkpatrick, Vernon Walters, Thomas Pickering, John Negroponte and other US government representatives sent clear signals that the local military in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala were to be allowed a free hand by the United States government to murder tens of thousands of civilians and anyone who spoke out against the slaughter. Perhaps the defining climax to the sickening murder campaign came in 1989 when the Salvadoran army killed six Jesuit academics and two of their domestic staff at the University of Central America in San Salvador. These crimes were made possible because the United States government consistently tried to conceal its institutional role in funding, training and supporting the military and paramilitary perpetrators. The Iran-Contra scandal was the culmination of that sustained program of regional deceit.


http://www.counterpunch.org/solo10282003.html


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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
55. pisses me off that the Dems are rolling over for this guy!
thanks for the post/links!
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. so, i guess these are the rape rooms they were talking about?
sick.
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mkonikoff Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. video and photos available on Australian ABC
Video and photos of this shameful episode are available on Australian ABC at: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1098037.htm
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. Unlocked again New information
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 10:56 AM by seemslikeadream
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
29. The disgrace




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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
31. I remember a story from early in the Afghani conflict
Where two captured prisoners were dead, shot in the head with their hands tied behind their backs after apparently being interrogated by unspecified Americans. This story went nowhere because nobody cared. Too soon after 911 and Dersherwitz' public advocacy for torture.

Now people are beginning to appreciate the nature of reprisals and retribution. "Good order and discipline" and "acts tending to bring discredit upon the Armed Forces of the United States" are more than just verbiage.

I believe that it was Fisk who reported stories that Americans were seen joking around with and defiling Iraqi corpses after combat before the incident which resulted in the deaths of the four mercenaries in Fallujah and the abuse of their remains.

Every single one of reports like those needs to be investigated and if warranted prosecuted. If you can't or won't do it, you are not entitled to assume authority over anyone.

Private security forces are not subject to military or any other lawful authority and shouldn't be used at all.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. There was that story too of a women at a photo mart in the UK
Turning in those pictures a UK troop left to get developed. It showed the same kind of thing. I think it was in the Daily Mirror. There was also that story about hundreds of prisoners suffocating to death in containers in Afghanistan. Although I think the Northern Alliance was responsible for that one.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. About the prisoners suffocating in shipping containers....
Shortly before those prisoners were discovered there was an article where Rummy was quoted as saying something like "We don't have the facilities to take any prisoners" or something to that effect. I printed out that article, although it would take awhile to find it.

At the time, I told a friend that Rummy had given American forces their marching orders, and sure enough it wasn't too long before they were found dead in the containers. Sure eliminates the need to have to provide for POWs.

One minor point... I think that's against the Geneva Conventions.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #57
88. Here's a few URLs I kept about war crimes in Afghanistan
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
34. Nice words from "just change the channel" Kimmit. EOM
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
36. What did you do in the war daddy?


Taking this photo out of his wallet
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
58. That grinning woman makes me sick.
I hope she isn't a mother.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Well we know she has a mother
probably. How proud she must be of her daughter today.
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Southpaw Bookworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. What's scary is that she probably is
Proud of her daughter: After all, they're only brown-skinned furrners, and not even Christian at that. Anyone who could do something like that to another human being has probably been raised on such vitriol. Her mother's probably raising a toast in her honor as we speak.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #71
94. and don't ever think
that she wouldn't do it to any of US either.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. who is she? tell me she's not the commandant of the camp.???
:kick:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. No she is not
That's what I thought at first, then I saw the commando on TV went it was reported she was being replaced.
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Syd Midnight Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
141. Since this is the 21st century..
Kids are going to Google their parents, and look for stuff on them on the web... so when these people have children, those kids and their classmates are going to know all about this in school.

Then again, having war criminal parents will probably help them fit in with certain cliques.. I have a feeling these soldiers are the kinda kids I hated in high school.
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. Iraqis complained about mistreatment in Abu Ghraib last year
but nobody seemed to be listening.
http://www.notinourname.net/war/brutality-2nov03.htm

I admire the whistleblower who turned these photos in.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. War Crimes. No doubt about that.
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 01:31 PM by HereSince1628
And I hope the whole chain of command gets the maximum punishment under both military and international law.

I don't buy the "just following ambiguous orders" argument. I am particularly angry over the photo of simulated (how simulated was it????) oral sex between males. I have difficulty imagining things worse than forced sodomy & the idea that a prisoner could be threatened with having their family humiliated by pictures of you committing sodomy. This is truly as awful as it gets.

I don't think anything worse was done by the Russian KGB or the German SS. The glee on the female soldier's face is very disturbing. It goes far far beyond an image of military dominance.
Having been raised in a American-christian culture it tears at my heart to think anyone could be so cruel.

I would be inflamed if my countrymen were so denigrated. I expect and fear the reaction that will come from within Islam.

This played right into the hand of terrorists like OBL.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yes. They should be tried as war criminals. No doubt about it.
I also agree that the whole chain of command should be tried, as well.

This dehumanizing behavior is absolutely horrific!!!
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Not even Smirk's
fraternity at Yale ever did anything like this. Or maybe they did and that's where the idea originated.

Smirk is at the top of the chain of command and he is responsible for every single war crime--personally and unequivocally. Without Smirk's unlawful order to begin this fiasco, no other unlawful action which flowed from it would have occurred.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
95. chimpy would fit in very well in those photos
he's heartless.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. Recall that Bush unsigned the war crimes treaty in 2002
I doubt he'll even bother to make an example of these Torquemada-like torcherers. By unsigning the war crimes treaty, he basically invited this behavior. Bush is a sadistic man. He revels in such behavior.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13055

A simple three-sentence letter to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan formally ended U.S. participation in an agreement to create the world's first permanent tribunal to prosecute war crimes, genocide, and other crimes against humanity. In the letter, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, John Bolton, asserted that Washington "does not intend to become a party to the (Rome Statute of the ICC)" and that it "has no legal obligations arising from its signature (to the treaty) on December 31, 2000."

The ICC treaty which was signed by President Bill Clinton has been signed by almost 140 countries and ratified by 66 and takes formal effect July 1.

Right-wing hawks in the Bush administration have been gunning for the ICC even before the inauguration. The author of the U.N. letter, John Bolton, was perhaps the most outspoken foe of the Rome Statute in Washington even before his appointment to the State Department. As vice president of the neo-conservative American Enterprise Institute and a trusted adviser of Sen. Jesse Helms, Bolton argued that the Court compromises U.S. constitutional guarantees, U.S. sovereignty, and could be used to pursue politically-motivated prosecutions of U.S. troops stationed overseas.

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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. Let's not forget the faces of the Americans in these photos.
They aren't Bush appointees, they aren't "higher ups". These are "our" troops that we are supposed to support. The ones that people here will say "they aren't thugs" and "they are just in a bad situation, trying to survive". Take a long, hard look at those faces. These are the faces of "our" boys and girls. We probably deserve what we are going to get.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Take a look at the joy on their faces.
They think this is so funny HA HA HA. I wonder how funny it will be to the Iraqi's that are holding western hostages? These pics may inspire them to take a few photos of their own.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
64. all they wanted was a college education N/T
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ProudGerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
70. Let us also not forget who alerted the chain of commander
From a link in the thread starters post.

*snip*
But on Wednesday, at a news briefing in Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs.

"That soldier said, 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with,' " said Kimmitt, who also confirmed that CBS had obtained the photographs.
*snip* (bold=my emphasis)

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jobendorfer Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
42. this story got play because of the photo evidence
It makes one wonder just how widespread this is. Has there
been any indication from the DoD/Pentagon that they're going
to investigate or review the conditions of ALL the Iraqi
POWs, to make sure this isn't happening in other places?

Gods, look at what we have become.

J.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Absolutely right. They've had so many prisoners there already.
If these people had felt they were doing something which could get them in BIG trouble, it's not likely they would have been having so much fun doing it.

I hope the reality of what they have done will occur to them soon, and stay with them forever.

They could have been sober, decent human beings and they opted not to do it.

They have told the world a lot about what's inside them.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #46
96. decency is ridiculed
by these types....
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I think we can safely assume that this is not the worst by any means
.
.
.

nor will we ever know the whole truth of the extent of this type of criinal behaviour.

The USA whether they like it or not, in the world's eyes,

you know, the WORLD, those that don't base their "knowlege" on those fancy sitcoms like CNN and Fox,

In the world's eyes, they have sunk to the level of Hitler and his gang.

Actually, even unbeknownst to most of USA citizens

- they were there 3 generations ago.



Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951 - Federal Documents

By John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7, 2003

After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

MORE


And almost half the USA wants to RE-ELECT Bush?

We are in trouble indeed.

Be afraid.

Be VERY afraid.


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
73. WHY ARENT YOU SENDING "BUSH-NAZI" TO ALL MEDIA?
tHAT;S A GREAT picture - knew about this but never saw the picture
before or knew he continued to 1951 (became senator on top of that
too ---- 60 minutes, howard stern, whoever...get the news OUT.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. These fiendish soldiers
better pay for this and pay good. I am so digusted.
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Big_Mike Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. The assholes who did this
should be made to have the same acts performed on them once they arrive in Leavenworth! What brain dead moron allowed mental defectives to do this kind of shit??!!!

Everybody in the entire chain of command needs to be relieved for cause now. Article 32 investigations should begin, if not already begun, and each and every person involved punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The fact that they "asked for guidance" does not allow these apes to shit on their prisoners.

I spent time in combat, and the thought of some pogue REMF acting like this to prisoners makes me want to puke.

They need to be nuked.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I don't know not much difference


A mass execution of Jews in Nazi occupied Soviet Union. Naked Jews, including a young boy,
just before their murder.










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supercrash Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
52. Fuck this shit
When our soldiers get tortured I will not be disturbed or even upset about it

We saw how Lynch was treated...Top notch

We also saw the "convoy of death" in Afganistan..

The US troops are on their own, they can fuck themselves...sure there are good soldiers there in Iraq...but they to are killing innocent people...they to see things like this and never speak up

The next 9-11 will make perfect sense to me, we deserve what is coming

Now...how long till the resistence starts kidnapping to torture ?...we reap what we sow
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
54. What has Bu$hler done to America?
I am beyond being fucking ashamed.

I grew up proud to be an American. I was so friggin lucky. I had a good life. Got a good education and grew up to be a descent human. That was what America was about. But in 3 short years, one very evil mf'er has turned us into Nazis. How much longer, must this madness continue?




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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. REALITY. Viet Nam had My Lai and those soldiers. War is war and
makes people animals and paranoiac too.

Why do you think they;re killing their wives when they come home./

This is not the first time American troops have worn the black hat and apparently won't be the last.

That still doesn't mean we stop supporting our 18 and 19 year old kids over there. Not all of our kids are doing that. Maybe just 1/4 of a percernt.
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. "1/4 of one percent"? You hope.
I'd bet it's a bit higher.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. thank you
these kids were raised on violent video games and movies. what do you expect?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
116. Reality is that the cabal that has taken over the WH
and their illegal invasion of a sovereign nation is responsible for everything that is happening in Iraq.

When your Commander in Chief tells you, we are going to hunt them down and smoke them out, then any sort of discipline goes right out the window. When that attitude comes from the top, then the situation of the ground is ripe for all sorts of horrors and abuses. It seems that attitude of the people running Iraq, is that anything goes and nothing can stop them. Under these circumstances, how the heck do we expect these kids to act? Especially, when your superiors are just about ordering you to act like this?





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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. These despicable acts
are of the same caliber as the sign the soldier had those two Iraqi children hold, something like.....I killed their mother and father and knocked up their sister. Same goes for the soldier who proudly put a black slash on his helmet for every Iraqi he killed. Same moral depravity as displayed by their Commander in Chief who mocked Karla Faye Tucker begging for her life...before her execution.

Well, we`re smokin` `em out and huntin` `em down all right! Such depravity sickens me and so does this dastardly war!

Faux News morons will get a big kick out of these photos. Probably all the JUST NUKE IRAQ weasels will come out in full force after this pitiful display of shock and awe. What has become of us?

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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. If that little bitch was my daughter, she would need a new mother.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. if she were mine
she would need someone to sew her rear-end back on cuz the first thing I would do when I saw her is tear it off. But, all I can think of when I see these pictures is my husband was telling me that during WWII that the Germans were happy to be taken prisoners by the US cuz they knew they would be well taken care of.
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FrankBooth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #74
143. True
being captured by the US was definitely preferrable to capture by the Russians.
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
61. Hagerstown, MD TV just said soldiers are from Cumberland MD area
Relatives told the Baltimore Sun the soldiers are assigned to the 372nd Military Police Company

http://www.nbc25.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=906
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Failure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
62. Hey Joann? I can't see any of the pics???
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
63. The pics are here --
Saddam is now looking like a saint by most standards...
The "ceasefire/massacre" in Fallujah; the rape and torture of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and other prisons in Iraq. Only "God/Bush" knows whats going on in Guantonamo Bay???

While 50% of Americans sponsor these activities, the other 50% are content to blame "this Administration". At some point we have to ask ourselves -- Is attributing blame really enough?







No one can terrorize a whole nation,


unless we are all his accomplices.


Edward R. Murrow
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Interview with Dan Rather tonight
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 06:02 PM by seemslikeadream
one of the accused soldiers said there were 7 guards there for 900 prisoners, they were never made aware of the Geneva Conventions and the guy from Guantonamo Bay is going to Iraq to replace Brigadier General Janis Karpinski that was in charge.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. this is chilling
that since they were not told they couldn't torture, abuse and humiliate the prisoners, they did know it was out of bounds.
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Streetdoc270 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. 'did not know it was out of bounds'????????????
You gotta grow up in a twisted neighborhood not to know that this stuff is 'out of bounds'! No one has sat me down and told me not to torture anyone by my own sense of decency tells me that that would be wrong, and anyone who told me to do so would be told "Go to Hell Sir!" You are under NO obligation to obey a command that you are morally opposed to PERIOD! These people (and I use that word lightly) seem to be enjoying their work to the point that they wanted scrapbook momentos! Levenworth is too good for this crime, throw them in Gitmo with the other terrorists!
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
139. They were not taught that it was out of bounds? Commanders
should have known and should have taught this and should have monitored the situation.

It's their responsibility!

Doesn't anyone in this administration take responsibility?
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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. bullshit, courtmarshall them
I don't care if they didn't know. Apparently they never had a consious or decency for other human beings to know that you just can't do things like that. They need replaced and repremanded along with thier shit for brains commander. These photo's depict war crimes according to the Geneva Convention.

We were to go there to get these people away from things like this, but what kind of message does it send when a few dumb asses decide they want a little personal revenge? I see that some of our finest are just as bad as the ones they go to oust. Disgusting
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #67
98. the guy from guantanemo bay?
wow, is that comforting...:eyes:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
66. This is an improvement in a historical sense. Think about it.
Torture, dismemberment and sexual abuse of prisoners has been the human warfare norm for most of recorded history. (Mongols used to tie each limb of a prisoner to a horse and whip the horses to full speed--also use them as stuffing in roasted whole cows.)

That a significant fraction of our species now objects to this and finds it shameful is a major step forward. The perps even get punished.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I am so glad you offered that enlightening perspective.
You are so right!!!

We HAVE evolved, haven't we *smile*.

Thank you, kindly for shining that light.

:hug:

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. You're correct. Makes me wonder about the age of the people
posting here. No knowledge of the horrors of the Nazis or of the reputations of the Yugoslavians or of Vietnam and the Mylais.

thank god this is not as horrible as what had been
done in wars in the past.

It is an improvement.....

out of every group there will be a small percentage of serial killers, bullies, sickos, and we have 135,000 people there so you're going to come across a small percentage of people like the resident in the WH who blow up frogs for fun. It's good they got caught.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Pallas180 I think there are horrors
being done right now, they've never really stopped. Think of Rwanda 10 years ago, even Clinto knew about that, a million people in 10 months. Since 1998 over 3.5 million lives have been lost in Congo.
Horrorific wars.

This is one story that haunts me

On the Trail of the Congo's "Cannibal Rebels"
Eliza Griswold traveled to the Democratic Republic of Congo twice to investigate claims of cannibalism as a weapon of war. Reports of the attacks helped to mobilize the media, the United Nations, and the International Criminal Court to respond to a war few people know about.




From: Eliza Griswold
Subject: Cannibalism as a Crime of War
Friday, March 26, 2004, at 8:20 AM PT

Maria lost her arm defending her children; she says soldiers ate flesh from the arm after they amputated it

In Bunia, the town's population has swelled from 6,000 to 120,000 people. Most have left everythingcrops, possessions, their familiesto escape the ongoing massacres in the bush. Through a network of local human rights organizations, I arrange to meet with a handful of survivors. One Sunday morning, over a hundred people show up to tell their stories.

One of them, Vivienne Nyamutale, 30, says that she spent 75 days captive with the Lendu fighters in the bush. "I was taken as the fourth wife of the fetish chief, Chief Abele." On five separate occasions before the Lendu fighters attacked a Hema village, Vivienne says, Hema men were brought before the crowd, cooked, and eaten by the fighters. Vivienne is Hema. She survived captivity only by swearing that she was Alur, the most common tribe in this part of Congo. Finally, after one massacre, she ran into the night and escaped. Vivienne is one of a handful of women who tell me about rape camps farther along the Fataki road where we found the two dead men.

Later, I visit a camp for displaced people and meet Chantal Tsesi, 24. We sit in the camp's office to talk. On the floor, a 2-week-old baby cries. The baby's parents have been killed; she was left at the camp by a neighbor who grabbed the infant while fleeing the massacre.

Draping a green batik cloth over her left shoulder, Chantal says that at 5 in the morning on Aug. 27, 2002, she woke to gunfire in the gold-mining town of Mabanga-Gl. She was alone with her 6-year-old son, Claude, as men armed with machetes entered her house. "Today we are going to cut off your arm so you can't prepare mandro " they said to her. She tells me, "They cut off my arm and took it outside where they had made a fire. They cooked it, while they were drinking our mandro, and ate it with the rest of the beans and rice." Claude had escaped into the bush with relatives. Then, she says flatly, "They told me they were going to find my husband and eat his heart."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2097314/entry/2097326/

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Then you can be thankful Americans have not fallen to that low animalistic
basest level.

War and violence is wrong.

Most of the world knows it now.

Unfortunately, someone who has never seen war and his buddies who have never seen war ordered this war.

If he didnt have his own man in the Pentagon in charge of the military it never would have happened.dimson would have been told no.

Clinton wanted to go to Rwanda and was told by the Pentagon and the
republicans we have no interest there and no business to go there.Nato could not go there. But Nato could go to Yugoslavia and did without putting any American soldier in ground to face fighting.
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Perhaps you're fooling yourself about Americans not falling to that level.
There would seem to be countless incidents in this country's history that might belie that perspective.

Yes, the level of THIS incident doesn't sink to the level of cannibalistic terror, nor to the level of genocide.

But I would hesitate to draw a line saying Americans have shown themselves to be somehow incapable of the worst that humanity can produce.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
133.  Genocide is happening somewhere at any given moment
Our government knows its happening.





During the late spring and early summer of 1992, some three thousand Muslims ... were herded by Serb troops into an abandoned warehouse, tortured, and put to death. A U.S. intelligence satellite orbiting over the former Yugoslavia photographed part of the slaughter. "They have photos of trucks going into Brcko with bodies standing upright, and pictures of trucks coming out of Brcko carrying bodies lying horizontally, stacked like cordwood," an investigator working outside the U.S. government who has seen the photographs told us. ... The photographs remain unpublished to this day. (Danner, "Bosnia: The Great Betrayal," New York Review of Books, 26 March 1998.)
The vast majority of mass killings and gender-selective slaughters between 1991 and 1994 were smaller in magnitude, and went virtually unrecorded. The best place to find accounts of them, in English at least, is the Helsinki Watch/Human Rights Watch report, War Crimes in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The litany of atrocities in a narrow stretch of Volume II alone makes clear the pervasiveness and systematic character of the gendercide in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in a way that the more epic mass killings perhaps do not:

In my village, about 180 men were killed. The army put all men in the center of the village. After the killing, the women took care of the bodies and identified them. The older men buried the bodies. (Trnopolje)
We were met by the Cetniks , who were separating women and children from the men. Many of the men were killed on the spot -- mostly over old, private disputes. The rest of us were put on buses and they started to beat us. (Kozarac)

http://www.gendercide.org/case_bosnia.html
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demoman123 Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #66
100. No improvement, just a change.
The US has caused far more suffering in Iraq than Genghis Khan could ever have dreamed of doing: over a dozen years of siege warfare, depriving the population of needed food and medicine; repeated bombing, whose tonnage is greater than all the bombs dropped on Vietnam; bulldozing of Iraqi soldiers into trenches while still alive (in the Gulf War); the use of AC-130's on Iraqi cities--planes that can cover an area the size of a football field with one bullet per square inch....

There is much more, but you get the idea. The difference between this and the depredations of the Mongols is that this is mechanized violence, which permits emotional detachment. But the fact that we engage in it is a sign of our monstrous character--which is marked not so much by cruelty as indifference, which can produce just as much evil.

What strikes us about the GI's in the CBS story is their cruelty, which is unusual because cruelty has mainly given way to large-scale cold, calculating, callous destructiveness.

Bertrand Russell once said that throughout history, man has always done the greatest evil he was capable of. The only difference today is that we are capable of far greater evil than we were in the past.
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frankieT Donating Member (375 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #100
131. good post - eom-
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #100
132. No improvement, just a change indeed
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #100
148. Well said! n/t
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okcdem Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
84. The same or worse goes on in U.S. prisons
n/t
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
87. So what if this is a historical improvement!
This behavior is inexcusable and in violation of the Geneva Convention.

They need to fire all of Rumsfield's mercenaries and fly them home before this gets worse. And make sure all of our soldiers understand the Geneva Convention.

I can't believe The New York Times and CNN are ignoring this shocking story.

:mad:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #87
93. I agree--just trying for the long perspective
We have come a long way as a species to label the behavior abominable.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
99. My god....
I didn't see the 60 Minutes II show last nite... with the photos of the prisoners in Iraq being abused. I just saw them on the web. I just wonder if the Arab/Muslim "street" is seeing them. If so, we will NEVER know another day of peace. Long after this war is over, they'll be hunting Americans.

If our troops had been treated like that, we'd certainly never rest until everybody anywhere near guilty had paid and paid.... and paid. Muslims are much more offended than we are about being shamed by women and nudity and simulated sex between men.

Punishment of the offenders will never satisfy Islam, and certainly not a "written repremand" for the Officer in Charge.

I feel more hopeless tonite than ever before during this "war".

The abuse of those prisoners is NOT mistreatment... not against policy but rather policy implimentation.

In my dim and distant past, I was sent to "POW school" and "Escape and Evasion" school in the Marine Corps.
The real titles should have been "Beat the Shit Out of the Prisoner" school.
The whole sadistic bit revolved around the "guards" trying to "break" the "prisoners".

Perhaps the only thing that kept things from getting dangerous and going completely over the line in those "schools" was good Non-Commissioned Officers... Sergeants... Gunnery Sergeants, actually. Obviously, the American kids had no NCO's or junior officers to control the situation.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
101. there is no level of "being appalled" that this administration can adopt
which will explain away this simple fact:

the rush to war was madness, and nobody was prepared for anything, and NOBODY IS MINDING THE STORE, and that's why it's all gone to hell.

and any chance gw bush had of getting elected this fall just went out the window with these pictures. he's toast.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
103. If you think this is bad....
What do you think goes on in Gitmo?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Guess whose taking over for the Brigadier?
I guess it was a training program for Iraq
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MichaelUK Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
108. It's all over the UK broadsheets
Guardian runs with it, Times, Telegraph etc have big spreads. Expect the tabloids to catch up tommorrow.

I'm quietly praying that the UK soldiers out there aren't doing anything as, well, I can't think of a word - horrifying, sadistic, evil - whatever, as that. If they did... blood would be spilt. The anti-war feelings here are huge at the moment and all it needs is a reason and poodle-boy will be hung, drawn, quartered and then fed to the press.

....

I feel sorry for all the decent US people out there who are appalled by this. Your country is getting dragged down by idiots.

Oh, and I "love" this... esp post 8. Orgasms ahoy!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1126108/posts
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #108
112. It's kind of interesting to note
that it garnered only 76 posts and all but about 5 of them were before the broadcast. Not much to say afterwards on this.
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Wizzard Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
113. So who gives a damn?
I'm tired of this shit
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Tired of what Wizzard?
The photos ? The disrespect for the Troops? The anti US feeling here ?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. wow
gone after only 9 posts-- wonder what else he/she said?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #113
117. Then go back to sleep
ahole.

It seems that at least around here, most people do give a shit.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #113
118. Go back to your outhouse
and finish pinning up the photos so you can sit there admire them and leave us alone.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #113
123. "I'm tired of this shit"
:eyes:
I'm sure the prisoners were tired of it, too.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #113
125. Here ya go TORTURE"R"US amuse yourself








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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
119. Finally...on CCNI
last night. :( Haven't seen anything on BBS...has anyone else?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #119
127. NO AND YOU CAN TAKE TO THE BANK SOMETHING IS GOING ON
I for one am committed to finding out Who these SWEETHEARTS were, where they were from etc.

This is not just "GOING TO GO AWAY"
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
128. This is a damned disgrace...
I've never supported this war and when I see stuff like this I figure the troops get what they deserve.

Friggin Nazi's everywhere I look.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
130. HERE ARE NAMES OF SOLDIERS
Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq


Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq
Soldier detailed problems in journal sent to father in Md.

By Ariel Sabar, Gus Sentementes and Jeff Barker
Sun Staff

Originally published April 30, 2004
CUMBERLAND - For months, members of the 372nd Military Police Company harbored a terrible secret.

The Army Reserve unit based near here - whose service in Iraq made many of its members hometown heroes - had boasted six months ago of its credentials for a new security assignment at a prison west of Baghdad.

...

But months later, the prison detail was disgraced in news reports across the world.

The Army said yesterday that 14 of the 17 soldiers implicated in an investigation of abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison are from the 372nd. They face either criminal or administrative charges.

....

(Article continues and gives names, backgrounds on the torture photo mp's--first I've seen that with this.)


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30a...


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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. GOOD WORK
Thanks for your help. We must never stand idly by!!!!
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
135. You go in like God Almighty
you have to act like God Almighty. All Merciful or All Just or All Powerful- or one of those- but no exceptions. With the UN there would not be this impossible expectation, and actually not this level of contradiction.

This is deterioration, not the usual actions of a minority. Occupying armies have to be thus if they are opposed. A ham-handed police force produces similar abuses with no oversight. An army just begins to fall apart because this is not their country or their mission.

Of course at this stage this can be rebutted. If this is cancer why do I still feel great? says the patient. So there.

If we keep waiting for the ability to say I told you so we'll have to say it over thousands of new gravestones and millions of unsympathetic foreign victims.
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waywest Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
140. At least SAADAM'S rape and torture rooms are closed forever!
sarc- off
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cambie Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
144. What does this signal mean?
Edited on Mon May-03-04 01:33 AM by cambie




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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. Its the " 3 WAR CRIMINALS " thumbs up pose
Suitable for photo ops at the torture chamber or the deck of the aircraft carrier.
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Roaming Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
146. Let's leave them behind for the new government--let the Iraqis
try them and imprison them.
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
149. I had the misfortune of hearing Rush today...
(just for a couple of minutes though,so I'm not sure what his full spiel was)
the part that I did hear though was Rush saying that the photos are nothing more then what you see if you watch a madonna or Brittney Spears video(and of course those videos are the fault of libs everywhere). Please tell me we're not going to have spend the next months listening to Bushists tel us that this madonnas fault..and by extension Clintons fault because he set the tone.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. Madonna and Britney electrocute people in videos?
And I don't think they stack up naked men in exactly that way.

Rush needs to give it up on this one, cause enquiring minds like those of dittoheads want to know, and you can't keep sex-obsessed fundies from nasty pictures.

I REALLY BELIEVE THESE SOLDIERS WERE FOLLOWING ORDERS. I just remember the denials from rummy on down all last year about how bad things really were over there, and you know they were DESPERATE to get the situation under control for the sake of Bush's re-election, and I'm sure they gave these soldiers carte blanche to get info from prisoners in any way they could. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And now they military will blame it all on the soldiers and ruin their reputations if not their lives.

And nothing happened until the pics came out. Thank God the pics got out, now they'll have to be alot more careful.
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. good point jdjkkse....
I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms. When you think about the lengths the admin was willing to go to in order to create a case for war,then the idea that they would send down orders from above where the ultimate interpretation could result in torture, doesn't seem so implausible.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #150
155. I have a hunch
cameras will not be allowed to be in the hands of military personel in the future.
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Campbell Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
152. must be the tip of the iceberg...
... think about it.

it is probably just "bad luck" that these pictures ever got a chance to seep out. These proud defenders of freedom were just exeptionally "smart" to perform their acts of liberation in front of a camera.

I think I can assume as a fact that the Army doesn't equip their M.P. and interrogation teams entirely with idiots. This leads to the disturbing conclusion that the rest of the personnel probably just kept their heads down and didn't brag about their "job" as much.

What is more probable?
1. The pictures were meant as a souvenir of day-to-day routine ("remember Iraq? oh boy, did we have a good old time..")
2. The pictures were meant to record an extraordinary singular event ("hey folks, I got a new idea, let's grab some prisoners, torture them for the heck of it and take pictures, that'd be neat")

C.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
154. Thanks to Junkdrawer for this from GD
Edited on Wed May-05-04 09:04 AM by seemslikeadream
Junkdrawer

Full Text of US Army Torture Report Leaked (Taguba report)...


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001 /

One Excerpt:


b. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in his sworn statement as follows: I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, wing 1A being made to do various things that I would question morally. In Wing 1A we were told that they had different rules and different SOP for treatment. I never saw a set of rules or SOP for that section just word of mouth. The Soldier in charge of 1A was Corporal Granier. He stated that the Agents and MI Soldiers would ask him to do things, but nothing was ever in writing he would complain (sic). When asked why the rules in 1A/1B were different than the rest of the wings, SGT Davis stated: The rest of the wings are regular prisoners and 1A/B are Military Intelligence (MI) holds. When asked why he did not inform his chain of command about this abuse, SGT Davis stated: Because I assumed that if they were doing things out of the ordinary or outside the guidelines, someone would have said something. Also the wing belongs to MI and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse. SGT Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said he stated: Loosen this guy up for us. Make sure he has abad night. Make sure he gets the treatment. He claimed these comments were made to CPL Granier and SSG Frederick. Finally, SGT Davis stated that (sic): the MI staffs to my understanding have been giving Granier compliments on the way he has been handling the MI holds. Example being statements like, Good job, theyre breaking down real fast. They answer every question. Theyre giving out good information, Finally, and Keep up the good work . Stuff like that.

and leftchick

Here is one civilian contrator (Titan) accused...
(U) Adel Nakhla, Civilian Translator, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade- Suspect



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1531569












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Bearcat Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
156. NAMES AND EXCERPTS
For personal reasons, I have been very interested in the reputation of the 372nd MP Battalion. I was with them in Bosnia.

Below are excerpts from various places on the net. I claim to know a few of these infamous MPs.

References (links) are below all text.

The official US Army Report on Iraqi Prisoner Abuse by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba is here: (http://www.antiwar.com/article.php?articleid=2479)


***********************************

Six reservists now face prosecution in Iraq. Their charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty towards prisoners, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts. Seven others, all officers and noncommissioned officers, have been reprimanded. (REF 1)


Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II;
Spc. Charles A. Graner;
Sgt. Javal Davis;
Spc. Megan Ambuhl;
Spc. Sabrina D. Harman and
Pvt. Jeremy C. Sivits
face prosecution in Iraq.

(REF 2)

Spc. Lynndie England, said the 21-year-old Fort Ashby, W.Va., Spc. England has not been charged, but she is being detained at Fort Bragg, N.C. (REF 3) (Funny, though, that other reports say that her mother doesn't know where she is but it's on the internet - ed.)

Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, 24, who faces the prospect of a court-martial. (REF 4)

Spc. Jason Kennel, who was not accused of wrongdoing, told investigators that military intelligence officers told the soldiers to remove prisoners' mattresses, sheets and clothes, according to The New Yorker. (REF 5)

Spc. Rodney Bird, 24, of Oakland, Maryland, worked at the Iraq prison but is not charged. (REF 6)

Charles A. Graner Jr., a state prison guard in southwestern Pennsylvania, was also among the military police being investigated. His attorney, Guy Womack, said Tuesday on NBC's ``Today'' that the photographs were staged. (REF 7)

Another member of the 372nd, Spc. Joseph M. Darby, 24, of Corriganville, Md., was credited by a member of the Army's Criminal Investigation Division with alerting investigators to the existence of the photographs. (REF 8)

The rest is taken from the US Army Report on Iraqi Prisoner Abuse by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba (REF 9):

That from December 2002 until he was suspended from his duties, on 17 January 2004, CPT Donald Reese served as the Company Commander of the 372ndMP Company, which was in charge of guarding detainees at FOB Abu Ghraib.

1LT Lewis Raeder, Platoon Leader, 372nd MP Company, reported knowing about at least two additional escapes (one from a work detail and one from a window) from Abu Ghraib (BCCF) that were not documented. LTC Dennis McGlone, Commander, 744th MP Battalion, detailed the escape of one detainee at the High Value Detainee Facility who went to the latrine and then outran the guards and escaped. Lastly, BG Janis Karpinski, Commander, 800th MP Brigade, stated that there were more than 32 escapes from her holding facilities, which does not match the number derived from the investigation materials. (ANNEXES 5-10, 45, 55, and 71)

(ANNEXES 25 and 26)

7.(U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) SPC Jeremy Sivits, 372nd MP Company - Suspect
b. (U) SPC Sabrina Harman, 372nd MP Company Suspect
c. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company - Suspect
c. (U) PFC Lynndie R. England, 372nd MP Company - Suspect
d. (U) Adel Nakhla, Civilian Translator, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade- Suspect

(Names deleted)

a. (U) SPC Sabrina Harman, 372nd MP Company, stated in her sworn statement regarding the incident where a detainee was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis, that her job was to keep detainees awake. She stated that MI was talking to CPL Grainer. She stated: MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Grainer and Fredericks job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk.

b. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in his sworn statement as follows: I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, wing 1A being made to do various things that I would question morally. In Wing 1A we were told that they had different rules and different SOP for treatment. I never saw a set of rules or SOP for that section just word of mouth. The Soldier in charge of 1A was Corporal Granier. He stated that the Agents and MI Soldiers would ask him to do things, but nothing was ever in writing he would complain (sic). When asked why the rules in 1A/1B were different than the rest of the wings, SGT Davis stated: The rest of the wings are regular prisoners and 1A/B are Military Intelligence (MI) holds. When asked why he did not inform his chain of command about this abuse, SGT Davis stated: Because I assumed that if they were doing things out of the ordinary or outside the guidelines, someone would have said something. Also the wing belongs to MI and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse. SGT Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said he stated: Loosen this guy up for us. Make sure he has abad night. Make sure he gets the treatment. He claimed these comments were made to CPL Granier and SSG Frederick. Finally, SGT Davis stated that (sic): the MI staffs to my understanding have been giving Granier compliments on the way he has been handling the MI holds. Example being statements like, Good job, theyre breaking down real fast. They answer every question. Theyre giving out good information, Finally, and Keep up the good work . Stuff like that.

c. (U) SPC Jason Kennel, 372nd MP Company, was asked if he were present when any detainees were abused. He stated: I saw them nude, but MI would tell us to take away their mattresses, sheets, and clothes. He could not recall who in MI had instructed him to do this, but commented that, if they wanted me to do that they needed to give me paperwork. He was later informed that we could not do anything to embarrass the prisoners.

d. (U) Mr. Adel L. Nakhla, a US civilian contract translator was questioned about several detainees accused of rape. He observed (sic): They (detainees) were all naked, a bunch of people from MI, the MP were there that night and the inmates were ordered by SGT Granier and SGT Frederick ordered the guys while questioning them to admit what they did. They made them do strange exercises by sliding on their stomach, jump up and down, throw water on them and made them some wet, called them all kinds of names such as gays do they like to make love to guys, then they handcuffed their hands together and their legs with shackles and started to stack them on top of each other by insuring that the bottom guys penis will touch the guy on tops butt.

7. (U) That 1LT Lewis C. Raeder, Platoon Leader, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties as Platoon Leader and be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and visiting Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic Soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.

9. (U) That 1SG Brian G. Lipinski, First Sergeant, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties as First Sergeant of the 372nd MP Company and given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:

- Failing to ensure that Soldiers in the 372nd MP Company knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
- Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and visiting Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that his Soldiers were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
10. (U) That SFC Shannon K. Snider, Platoon Sergeant, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties, receive a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, and receive action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers in his platoon knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and visiting Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that his Soldiers were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
Failing to report a Soldier, who under his direct control, abused detainees by stomping on their bare hands and feet in his presence.

ANNEXES:
63. CPT Donald Reese, Commander, 372nd MP Company
71. 1LT Lewis C. Raeder, Platoon Leader, 372nd MP Company
81. MSG Brian G. Lipinski, First Sergeant, 372nd MP Company
84. SFC Shannon K. Snider, Platoon SGT, 372nd MP Company
85. SFC Keith A. Comer, 372nd MP Company
86. SSG Robert Elliot, Squad Leader, 372nd MP Company
105. SGT William A. Cathcart, 372nd MP Company

LINKS / REFERENCES

REF 1 (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-5-2004_pg7_33)
REF 2 (http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040504-102357-9533r.htm)
REF 3 http://wvgazette.com/section/News/2004050434)
REF 4 (http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=54&u_sid=1086648)
REF 5 (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/sports/horse_racing/kentucky_derby/8593378.htm)
REF 6 (http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040503-115510-9517r.htm)
REF 7 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4052776,00.html)
REF 8 (http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20040504-102357-9533r.htm)
REF 9 (http://www.antiwar.com/article.php?articleid=2479)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. Do you think there will be some kind of support
for them online, a web site?
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KiwiLiberal Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
159. "All that is necessary
for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. (Edmund Burke).

The POWER is in your hands Americans come November this year. The reputation of your country and its citizens has been tarnished to the extent that it will take many many years beore you are trusted as individuals and as country deserving respect.

Stop "supporting" your fellow countrymen and women in the services in Iraq and start campaigning to bring them home. Bush uses your "patriotism" as a blank cheque to do what ever he wants.

The sooner this court appointed "President" is toppled, the better.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
160. Good morning seemslikeadream
This thread is a bit old for the Late Breaking News forum. Please continue the discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x532888

Thanks! :hi:
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