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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 12:34 AM
Original message
GM's Akerson pushing for higher gas taxes
Source: Detroit News

Last Updated: June 07. 2011 1:00AM
GM's Akerson pushing for higher gas taxes
David Shepardson and Christina Rogers/ The Detroit News


Detroit — General Motors Co. CEO Dan Akerson wants the federal gas tax boosted as much as $1 a gallon to nudge consumers toward more fuel-efficient cars, and he's confident the government will soon shed its remaining 26 percent stake in the once-bankrupt automaker.

"I actually think the government will be out this year — within the next 12 months, hopefully within the next six months," Akerson said in a two-hour interview with The Detroit News last week.

He is grateful for the government's rescue of GM — "I have nothing but good things to say about them" — but Akerson said the time for that relationship to end is coming because it's wearing on GM. "It's kind of like your in-laws: It was a nice long weekend. We didn't say a week," Akerson said with a laugh.

And while he is eager to say goodbye to the government as a part owner of GM, Akerson would like to see it step up to the challenge of setting a higher gas tax, as part of a comprehensive energy policy.

Read more: http://www.detnews.com/article/20110607/AUTO01/106070368/GM-chief-pushing-for-higher-gas-taxes
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. fucker. that is not how you do it. we had electric cars here in california.
It worked BEAUTIFULLY. It was simple: there was a law in place that to sell cars at least 10% had to be 100% smog free, i.e. NO GASOLINE. They put it on the car manufacturers, not on the consumers. That was so long ago; we could make that 40 or 50% now. It was called the clean air act. .Those cars had waiting lists to buy them. and who killed the electric car? the auto manufacturers. with, I'm sure, lots of help from the oil industry.
So I say gas tax: fuck you. let's just get rid of fossil fuels all together. In the meantime how about a conversion kit for my old car? THAT I would be willing to pay for, as it would change our society all together, not a gas tax.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Electric cars are not the end answer. You just move the source
Edited on Tue Jun-07-11 01:47 AM by Go2Peace
Raising taxes on Gas was how Europe built their mass transit infrastructure. It works.

Just look at the idiocy in the standard consumers... After the previous gas price increase fuel efficient cars were selling. Price drops a dollar a gallon and trucks and lower mileage SUV's are again the leader. Price goes up again and people stop buying trucks again.... Until it drops again and our consumers forget all over again
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Trouble is that GM is largely responsible for our not having a mass transit infrastructure today
The man either doesn't know the history of his company or he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, mouth and the outer side, his ass.
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George Wythe Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. The American people are responsible for our not having a mass transit infrastructure today...
Most people prefer private restrooms over public ones. The same principle applies to private transportation.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. It was GM who bought up the trolleys and the bus companies and then let them
degenerate into something that no one wanted to ride. You are totally wrong and you need to read a little history before you try telling me bullshit about its the peoples fault.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. He is concerned about volatility in the price of Gasoline
The reason GM and Chrysler went bankrupt was simple, there were producing the wrong cars during a period of high oil prices.

Ford has been facing that same problem since the 1970s, the Fiesta was introduced over and over again, and then withdrawn do to lack of sales. Why the lack of Sales? The price of gasoline went down, so less people wanted them. Furthermore the Small Car market in the US is the most price sensitive sector of the Automotive market. If people want a small fuel efficient car, they will go for the cheapest one they can find. No loyalty as to brand or mark. Not only the big Three, but ALL of the Importers try to build up Brand Loyalty. The advantage of Brand loyalty is that if the Ford is $500 cheaper then a Chevy, people with loyalty to Chevy will still buy the Chevy, but people without brand loyalty would go with the Ford, even if their first choice was a Chevy.

With larger cars you can build up this Brand Loyalty. The Japanese (and later other importers) first entered the US Market in the Cheap car market. It was so bad that while the big three still made money of the few small cars they sold, their dealers hated them, for all had to be deeply discounted to even have a chance against the imports. To offset this (and to meet the requirement of the Corporate Fleet Average law), the big three and later the importers, started to attribute less and less Corporate overhead to such vehicles and more and more to the more profitable larger cars and Trucks, just to keep the price low so these cars would sell (Remember the Small car market is the most price sensitive).

Thus historically, the Big Three broke even on their small cars, and made most of their profits on the sale of large Cars. Starting in the 1980s you had the SUV craze, when many people who use to buy sports car and Full Size Cars, switched to SUVs. All of this the result of the reduction in the price of Gasoline between 1980 and 2000. Small cars were unpopular at that time period, everyone wanted an SUV, and that is where the profit was (Even the Japanese got into the act, after the Japanese were permitted to import full size trucks into the US in the 1990s).

Thus Ford, GM and Chrysler all but abandon the Small Car sector of the Automobile market. They stayed in it to keep up their Corporate Fuel Average, but that was about it. The big Three lobbied Congress to exclude SUVs from the Corporate Fuel Average, and succeeded to a degree (In the Case of the Hummer, to exclude it completely from the Corporate Fuel Average law). Starting in 2000, you started to see smaller SUVs instead of the large Suburbans and Explorers, but what you saved in fuel in that reduction, you more then gained in people switching from Cars to those Smaller (Through larger then the Cars being traded in) SUVs.

Then the 2008 Rapid increase in Gasoline prices and the Collapse of the Car industry in the US. The Big Three were all set up for producing large SUVs not Small cars, all would take three to four years to switch to small cars production, but few people wanted their large SUVs do to the high price of Gasoline. Ford even discussed bring in its KA, a City type Car Ford makes and sell in Europe, but by the time production of the KA could be adapted for US sale, the price of Gasoline had dropped and Ford determined the KA would NOT be a good sale in the US given the lower price of Gasoline. The Ka has a 1.2 liter engine.

GM is in worse shape then Ford when it comes to Small Cars, for the simple reason GM has since WWII been almost twice the size as Ford in the US, while Ford almost match GM worldwide given Ford much higher sales overseas. Thus GM has less cars it can switch to US production from European Production (In fact the Cruze was introduced into Europe over a year before it was released in the US, even through both versions were produced at the Lordstown Plant in Ohio).

Given the above recent background (I know of the attack on Streetcars and Buses by GM, but that was decades ago and of little relevance today) what the Big Three fears the most is the price of gasoline going up and down in three to four year cycles. By the time any of them had adapted to the price change, the price would have reversed forcing the big three to reverse their previous changes. There is only one way to solve this problem, keep the price of gasoline stable, but that means someone controls oil production so that if the price goes up, you increase production till the prices drops. If the price goes down to far, you cut production till the price goes back up. This was performed by the role Saudi Arabia has done since the 1970s, and from the 1930s till the late 1960s the Texas Railroad Commission (Which control the oil production in Texas and thus world wide oil prices from the 1930s till 1969).

With no one able to control production prices will become unstable. The only other solution is taxation, with taxation demand will drop and thus so will the price. If the price goes up to high, you can abolish the tax. It is the best solution we have to control the price of oil, and thus why the Big Three (And the Japanese importers) all support a Gasoline tax. If prices should drop the Big Three's plans to switch to small cars will NOT be undermined by the drop in oil prices. This is clearly the concern of the Big Three, nothing else. When someone controlled oil production, the Big Three opposed gasoline taxes, but today no one control oil production and price volatility will become the norm. The big Three wants to protect their investment in switching to small car production and the only way they can do so is to keep the price of gasoline high, thus the support for higher gasoline taxes in the US.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. There was a law enacted here in California, until the car manufacturers managed to break it. It said
Edited on Tue Jun-07-11 03:07 PM by robinlynne
simply that 10% of all vehicles sold in this state MUST be 100% electric. period. That was 15 years ago? IT worked. It was called the clean air act. It worked. Tried and proven. All you need to do is up the ante. if you want to manufacture/ sell one big truck, you must have sold 2 electric cars first. (or something like that.) The car companies figure out how to do it and do it. It works. It is simply a matter of setting priorities for society. If you have a law banning the use of plastic bags, people will find other ways of bagging things. A tax on gas will make it so that a few high income liberals buy electric cars. Pretty much the ones who already do. Or that people downsize a little bit. I don't have the money to buy a new car. not a chance. A used electric car is SOOO expensive (because the demand is much greater than the supply) that it is way out of my reach. Demand for electric cars is there. has been for over ten years. What is missing is the supply, and making it the norm (by having charging stations everywhere, like san francisco is starting to do, for example). If they were the norm, the price would go down, and we would all be able to have one.

in other words, we know what to do. let's do it. solar energy and electric cars. a gas tax ain't going to do it. It will make some personal lives miserable, including mine. It will not get me into an electric car. had the california law stood, I would probably have one.

Germany is switching to solar by having the private sector put up solar panels all over the country. how? if you put up a solar panel and create more energy than you use, you get paid twice the value of that energy for 20 years. Solar panels are sprouting up everywhere. In those 20 years the infrastructure will be completely ready. That is how you stop using coal. to stop using gasoline we need an electric vehicle infrastructure. a switch. a huge switch. not a gas tax. After a certain period of time you can phase out the gasoline vehicles by putting a tax on their use if you want. but right now we have no choice but to use gasoline. THAT is the problem. I and most do not have the 40k to buy an electric car. So we will simply pay a gas tax instead of some of the groceries we were buying? that does not solve the problem.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. move the source AND
massively increase efficiency, reduce percentage fossil fuel (electricity comes from hydro, wind, solar too - gas doesn't) and make emissions more controllable (one even ff-driven electricity generating plant is much easier to test and regulate, and much more able to afford high-tech emissions scrubbing than millions of ICE cars)


And Europe has vastly greater poulation density - US mass transit outside the mega-cities is far less feasible.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Electric = smog free?
Interesting. Where do you think electricity comes from?
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Plus any new car requires between 15 and 25 barrels of oil to manufacture.
Lots of people forget that fact.

that is why I always buy used.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Also part of why cash for clunkers wasn't such a good idea
even for the environment.

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. solar power. That is part of the transition.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's part of the hype
not the reality.

Also solar is far from environmentally neutral. Look at what goes in to making them.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. That's part of the hype
not the reality.

Also solar is far from environmentally neutral. Look at what goes in to making them.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. the sun. the switch to solar is a given. Electric cars 15 years ago already had little solar panels
strong enough to take care of the air conditioning. Imagine what you can do now. there is solar paint. there are solar panels. there are solar cells, solar shingles.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yeah except none of this is reality
No state currently gets a large share of it's energy from the sun.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Germany does. And we have much more sun.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. They get around 2%
that is not large. And if we were to convert our automobiles over to electric we'd need to massively expand our current energy production abilities.

/also they do it with a subsidy of 1 billion euros a month. Not cheap. And CA is broke.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. not so, but I dont have the time to look it up. it is cheaper than the wars.
And cheaper than the tax cuts.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. Yes it is so
Here you go:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/03/new-record-for-german-renewable-energy-in-2010??cmpid=WNL-Wednesday-March30-2011

http://www.greenchipstocks.com/articles/germanys-feed-in-tariff-changes-are-coming/751

And a billion euros a month, times 4 would give you 5.6 billion dollars per month. Not inconsequential. And in reality it'd be higher as A) we don't have the public transportation they have, B) we have far more cars, C) we are more spread out and D) they are not trying to run their cars on electricity (that's a big one), so to convert even 5% of our cars over would put massive strains on our energy sector.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. The solar panel ran a fan, not the A/C unit
Running an A/C unit, even the comparatively small one in a car, would require far more solar panels than you realize.

For example, you can get an optional solar panel on a new Prius, powerful enough to run a fan to circulate air. That's all it can manage, even with 15 yr of advancement in solar development. There's a theoretical limit on how many watts you can get per sq. meter of panel.

As far as solar paint or solar panels, they currently exist almost entirely in research labs, not yet suitable for commercial applications. I can't stroll down to Home Depot and pick up a bucket of solar paint.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It ran an AC unit. I was in the passenger's seat. The only difference from a gasoline car was the qu
quiet and smooth ride. No other difference. And that is a car from at least 15 years ago.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. better controlled fossil fuel burning, plus hydro, wind, solar, nuke..
then fed to a far more efficient motor.

And of course you add in the power required to extract, transport, refine, deliver and pump gas to every ICE mpg claim, right? Consistency....
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. So... he wants the government to tax people
Into buying his cars.

Rent seeking jackass.
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JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. What fuel efficient line?
All I see in my area are mammoth gas guzzling Cadilac Escaldate SUVs that get around 8 miles to a gallon, with jackass Republicans behind the wheel, spewing drill, baby drill.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Git yer glasses fixed, grampa
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't like paying for highways with property taxes and income taxes
County and municipal roads are not maintained with fuel taxes.
Much of the state highway budget is paid with state income and sales taxes.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. Just like any other CEO
Bailout for him, taxed out of existence for us.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Oh, you forgot to say "Government Motors" eom
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usrname Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. This was the same idea proposed by
either Nicholas Kristof or Bob Hebert in the NY Times about 4 years ago. It is indeed the right idea. It may hurt people, but it will work, and I for one would welcome it. Basically keep the price of gas at no lower than $6/gallon. If the price of gas drops, the tax amount will increase to keep it at least $6/gallon. If the price of gas goes above $6/gallon, then the tax should boost the overall price to over $7/gallon, and then it should stay there.

Taxing people to encourage social habits do and will work.
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christx30 Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Splendid idea.
and when the repubs hammer the point home about the dems WANTING to keep gas prices over $6 an hour, people aren't going to be able to vote them in fast enough.

Hell... I only make $9 an hour. My autistic son's therapy is really the only thing I drive to, but it's on the other side of town. I wouldn't be able to take him.
Thankfully I work at home.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's fine, with all the job growth and deflation we can easily afford
this as a nation.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. what a fucking idiot.....
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Hey! That's What I Was Going To Say.
Another guy with a gazillion dollars figuring the solution is to make it hard on people who actually can't afford what he can and doesn't recognize that fact.

Idiot is the only word that works.
GAC
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
14. A gas tax and lower speed limits is most sensible
I don't see any other easier measures changing people's driving habits.

The reasoning is old, though - the more dependent we are on foreign oil, the more involved we are in middle east politics, and the weaker we are economically. The cost of all that has been massive, in lives and money. Ask why we support the country that the 911 fliers came from, that still doesn't allow women to vote, and that officially endorses creationism in its (limited) education system?
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octothorpe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. This would screw over the poor and middle class...
You know, those of us who can't buy brand new cars right away. I'd like to have a nice brand new hybrid car myself, but unless they are around $10k, I don't see that happening.
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christx30 Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Unless I can find one for about
$50 on Craigslist, I'd be stuck paying for the higher gas prices. Until the riots start up and people demand the price go down.
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