Hungary considers giving mothers extra votes

[alp227]

Source: The Telegraph

Jozsef Szajer, a senior official from the ruling conservative Fidesz party, explained that 20 per cent of Hungary's population are children and that "the interests of future generations are not represented in decision making". "100 years ago it was unusual to give votes to women," he said.

The proposed legislation, which would be a first for modern democracy, is inspired by a concept developed in 1986 by American demographer Paul Demeny, who argued that children "should not be left disfranchised for some 18 years".

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/8457723/Hungary-considers-giving-mothers-extra-votes.html

---

Huh? A conservative party that wants more democracy? When the conservative American political party has been doing all sorts of unethical, illegal stuff to restrict democracy (ID laws, rigged voting machines, surreptitious disenfranchisement, banning college students, etc.)?

[BanzaiBonnie]

1. Now THAT"S an interesting idea.

Not saying I'd embrace it, but something to think about.

[wundermaus]

2. I think this is an excellent idea!

In fact, men should not be allowed to vote at all unless they get a note from their mother or wife.

[alp227]

5. Thom Hartmann also expressed a "no vote for men" idea recently

because of how men started most of the wars and are thus responsible for so many deaths http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zF9PIP04mA

[defendandprotect]

14. Agree -- we need more acknowledgment of male violence worldwide -- !!

And the destructiveness of male-supremacy -- "the bird with one wing" -- !!

Capitalism and male-supremacy are both suicidal concepts!!

[WatsonT]

78. Good to see sexism thriving around here.

No votes for women!

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Jack the Ripper, Napoleon and Carrot-Top all had mothers who raised them!

Should we really trust a gender that has given us so many monsters?

[Matariki]

83. Right - just think of how many votes those 'quiverfull' women could get.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

88. They don't believe that women should vote at all

so we don't have to worry about them. :)

[unkachuck]

3. "should not be left disfranchised for some 18 years"

....makes sense to me, especially since children seem to pay a disproportionate price in our society for adult stupidity....

....when household income is dramatically lowered because of an unfair tax code and children are made to suffer, then democracy demands 'no taxation without representation'....

[houstonintc]

4. That idea is terrible...

First, whose to say the mothers would "represent" their children's desires.

Second, what about the other person responsible for that child's creation?

[musette_sf]

6. Bad idea

Slippery slope to fetal personhood legislation

[Merlot]

9. that was my first thought too

"Slippery slope to fetal personhood legislation"

[musette_sf]

42. BINGO

"The new constitution, which Fidesz can push through because of their coalition's two-thirds majority in parliament, also includes articles that protect the life of a foetus "from conception" and preserves "the institution of marriage between man and woman"."

[freshwest]

68. That's what it really is.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Why do you think that idea is "more democracy"? (nt)

[alp227]

11. expanding representation of a certain part of the population

that case, mothers + their minor children

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Children are separate people from their mothers

And children are also separate from each other. This proposal just gives one extra vote to a mother, no matter how many children they have. What this does is give extra power to a part of the population - mothers of minors. That's not democracy; it's bias. My political views have always been closer to my father than my mother, and that probably goes for my two elder brothers as well. I'd have been very annoyed if my mother got an extra vote - she wouldn't have 'represented' me particularly well.

[WatsonT]

54. Expanding individuals voting power means reducing the effect of others

we could for instance double the votes for each white person. That wouldn't be more democracy as it would effectively halve the vote of everyone else (maybe we could make it work out to 3/5ths just for fun?).

Imagine if they were to say "well men do most of the fighting and dying to preserve a country, so men should be given twice as many votes as women".

More democracy?

[alp227]

60. so my earlier comment was misguided, i see

and this plan you believe is no better than what the Republicans in our country have done such as the voting machines fiasco and the fraudulent purging of voter rolls?

[WatsonT]

70. Correct

This is not more democracy, it is less.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. mothers are already represented. minor children don't vote

because they don't have the cognitive capability to vote. nor for that matter can they choose to drink/smoke or join the military.

[defendandprotect]

15. Because we have had 50,000 years of rule by patriarchy -- male-supremacy --

"the bird with one wing" --

Put in place by violence -- and kept there through violence!

[AtheistCrusader]

16. 50,000 years? You can tell us all about social balances in all cultures 10,000+ years ago?

Do tell.

[houstonintc]

22. Me thinks a Marija Gimbutus disciple...

Sounds an awful lot like the "matriarchal golden age" mythology.

[snooper2]

34. You need to watch 2001 again, you got it all wrong D&P

[defendandprotect]

35. Why don't you explain it to us -- ???

[snooper2]

36. dudette, you haven't seen 2001: A Space Odyssey

[defendandprotect]

39. Never saw it -- explain your take on it --

[snooper2]

40. All I can say is watch the movie and all questions you ever had about anything

will be answered

Trust HAL

[defendandprotect]

48. Is what you are being so mysterious about ....

Aliens?

I have no plans to watch the movie -- but did read the "explanation" ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_2001:_A_Space_Odyssey


I have no problem with aliens -- and/or even visitations now --

However, their work may have begun more than 375,000 years ago -- and may

still be on-going --

Are we "made in their image" -- ? Are they the GUARDS of the universe?

Are they white male supremacists -- ?

Or are you trying to blame the chimp for male-supremacy -- ?

There is no other species, except humans, where the males are at war with the

female -- and at war with nature --

Adding up both female/children + Nature -- it would seem that males are pissed

that they can't create -- see the "Frankenstein" theory by Mary Shelley.


Violence is not natural to man -- see Howard Zinn on that --

And, it has been taught by humans to humans --

As we say -- "Man's inhumanity towards Man" --

Are aliens violent or have they tried to teach violence to humans -- ?

Only the opposite seems to be true!!

Over and again, humans have asked how we can control the few violent among us --

"The Day The Earth Stood Still" seems to have supplied the answer to that question!




PS: Also note that this is a Stanley Kubrich film -- and he's alledged to be connected

to the Moon Hoax -- and Arthur Clarke, the original author, also interesting.

And I certainly don't believe that we landed any live human beings on the moon --

We seem to have been hanging out mainly in near outer space -- other than some

volunteered lives that may have been risked and lost?

[snooper2]

51. light travels about 6 trillion miles

in one year

We are talking about changes

See video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Y9-JlSRXw

[defendandprotect]

52. If you want to discuss or debate, you actually have to post comments --

Rap is your comment?

Bye --

[freshwest]

67. It smelled like SPAM®

[Codeine]

77. "Males are pissed that they can't create"?

You must have a missed a few days in Biology class.

[houstonintc]

82. Here here...

Also both males and females create more things then children. Civilization anyone? Or is that ignored now?

[Odin2005]

85. So rewarding women that fit into a patriarchal role as baby-incubators in anti-patriarchy?

LOL!!!

[robcon]

8. Giving some people two votes is dumb.

Stupid idea.

[defendandprotect]

13. It's a brilliant idea to overcome male-supremacy -- a way to balance gender inequality!!

[Very_Boring_Name]

29. One person one vote

It's the basis of democracy. Anything else is undemocratic.

[defendandprotect]

37. And you're saying that WEALTH hasn't shifted that concept -- ???

Or that patriarchy hasn't shifted it -- ???

Rather naive thinkiing -- !!

[Very_Boring_Name]

45. I'm saying that every individual, no matter how wealthy or how big their penis is, gets 1 vote

And thats the way it will remain in a true democracy.

[defendandprotect]

50. And, I'm asking you if that has given us democracy vs impact of wealth/patriarchy?

[Very_Boring_Name]

63. The impact of wealth/patriarchy is a completely different issue from how many votes a person gets

You can use your 1 vote to change the system if you don't like it. Demanding that some people get more votes than other people is ridiculously anti democratic.

[defendandprotect]

64. -- only if . . .

you are fanatically narrow minded --

bye -- !!

[quakerboy]

76. Most of government is quite undemocratic in most countries

representation is not democracy, it seems to me. If democracy is what we truly desire, we need to put everything, literally everything, to popular vote. Presidents, congress, etc become useless vestigial functions.

Course that might be a bit unwieldy even in our modern technological age. So we made adjustments. Not sure this is the adjustment I would make, but its not the worst idea I have ever heard either.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. Lol.

No it's not.

[defendandprotect]

38. OK -- are you in denial of male-supremacy -- or do you have a better plan for gender balance?

[WatsonT]

56. Also

doesn't giving women extra privileges only if the accept their role as mothers smack of sexism?

They aren't doubling womens votes, just mothers. So apparently your value to society is in your ability to reproduce.

And you find this desirable.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. exactly

[tammywammy]

71. +1 n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. gender imbalance will not be corrected by giving fetus personhood

not will it be corrected by rewarding only women who reproduce

nor is it morally correct to give any one gender more votes

[defendandprotect]

65. Where do you see that a FETUS gets "personhood"?

And, patriarchy means we've been waaaay morally incorrect for tens of thousands

of years!!

[WatsonT]

69. Votes go with people

Lamps can't vote. Neither can squirrels. Or cancerous lumps.

Only people can vote.

So if you give two votes to a pregnant women you're giving her one for herself and one for her fetus.

Meaning the fetus is a person.

You can't murder fellow voters can you? Of course not. So you can't abort a fetus that can vote.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. it's part of the agenda of this govt. anytime people want to give women

a vote for their children, its rewarding women for just reproducing rather than rewarding them for being in the workforce. which in itself is disturbing

and just because patriarchy is immoral, you cant fix it by giving women two votes. thats just absurd

[Ter]

86. There are more women then men in terms of population

If every woman voted for their own sex, that's 51% women. Problem solved.

[houstonintc]

87. Voted for their own sex?

I wonder if a civilization can survive with its two central components acting to destroy each other?

[WatsonT]

55. By creating permanent gender inequality?

Odd solution you have there.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal.

[WatsonT]

79. I would favor giving anyone who thinks this way their own country

Surely we have some empty land we can give out.

All the racial separatists, religious fanatics, radical sexists, and other nutjobs can have their own little countries.

Even if we have to give over half the surface of the earth to these groups it would still be a boon for the rest of us.

Go build your sexist femtopia. Leave the rest of us alone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

[bengalherder]

10. I wouldn't think that was a good thing.

Especially since (according to my source, an american expat blogger living in Hungary) this conservative government is voting itself in a new constitution that would make our dominionist nutcases cream.

Last spring they elected a new government here that brought back a ruling party and a prime minister -- Viktor Orbán -- that had already governed for one term between 1998 and 2002. Even during that term Orbán’s opportunistic, populist nationalism and drive to consolidate his power at any cost was frightening, but his majority in parliament was slim and his coalition partners were unstable, so the damage he could do at that time was limited. And it was the late nineties: the markets were buoyant, everyone was making money, and nobody really cared...

...And the Orbanistas are going for broke: protection of life from conception, institutionalising Christian values, giving parliament influence over the national bank, declaring marriage to be purely between a man and a woman,... it goes on. And every day they pass more legislation that gives them more and more control over education, culture, the media, the courts, health care... it goes on. We’re heading towards a sort of soft fascism, and the EU is impotently watching as it happens.

http://magianrumination.blogspot.com/2011/04/whats-man-to-do.html

Apparently more than a few ex-pats and freethinkers have left or are seriously considering doing so.

If using the vagina as a clown car = getting a block of votes = more democracy, then the Duggars are potenially the most democratic bunch around.

[chatnoir]

32. Interesting posting/blog from an expat who has been there 20 yrs

Wonder if they will stay put or move on, but to where? Though I guess being there 20 yrs he prob has an EU passport by now and can chose from most of Europe...

Thanks for the link.

[defendandprotect]

12. A return to a female-centered society? Women and children -- not just males!!

[kelly1mm]

17. What about extra votes for parents, not just mothers? And for those

with no problem about discriminating based on gender, what about single fathers - should they get the extra votes?

[houstonintc]

19. Agreed

Yeah this seems completely silly on it's face.

Besides the subtle sexism of not including the fathers of these children in this initiative it assume the parents would automatically represent their children's interests.

[kelly1mm]

20. Subtle sexism? I don't think some of the comments on this thread

are subtle at all. Although I do agree with your point about assuming the parents wour represnt the children's intersts.

[houstonintc]

21. Alright, I was to kind...

But I don't take defendandprotect seriously enough.

Though you are correct I am way to kind on this measure it's out right F'ing putrid.

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. Subtle? "Subtle" like a fucking frying pan. n/t

[provis99]

18. what goofy nonsense.

So the mothers would vote for their kids? Lets try something like this in America: I will vote for everyone in America. There! We have more democracy!

[Very_Boring_Name]

23. Absolutely moronic and anti democratic idea

[SkyDaddy7]

24. BAD BAD BAD!!

Especially in America where you have Conservative mothers voting how the husband & church say...Plus, one vote per person is fair.

[pampango]

26. "...legislation from conservative Fidesz party since winning election on populist rightwing agenda"

Hungarian mothers may get extra votes for their children in elections

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/17/hungary-mothers-get-extra-votes

The conservative Fidesz party has made several controversial decisions since coming to power on a populist rightwing agenda, including a crackdown on the media, but the latest proposal could be prove to be its most contentious.

Szájer said he was inspired by the work of the American demographer Paul Demeny, who developed the concept in 1986. Under Demeny Voting, each parent is given half a vote for each child, permitting a split vote in the event that the parents have differing political loyalties. However, to counter concerns about the Roma winning more votes, Szájer said in the Hungarian case, the move would have "permitted the passage of a law giving mothers the vote on behalf of a maximum of one child".

The discourse on Demeny Voting first emerged in Germany and Japan in the 2000s as a solution to concerns that policy development is biased in favour of the elderly rather than young families. In early March, the Centre for Intergenerational Studies at Hitotsubashi University held a conference on the subject.

The new constitution, which Fidesz can push through because of their coalition's two-thirds majority in parliament, also includes articles that protect the life of a foetus "from conception" and preserves "the institution of marriage between man and woman".

[dipsydoodle]

27. That is as odd

as the situation in Georgia, the country not the state, where the head of a family votes for the whole family.

It was using that which enabled Saakasvhili to gain power. It reduced the number of people who needed leaning on / straightening out to get the votes of entire families.

[LibertyFox]

28. Far be it from me to tell Hungary what to do

But if you're that desirous of giving children representation there's better ways of doing it than overenfranchising one gender at the expense of another.

Whatever your views on "male domination" and patriarchy are, tilting the scales in the exactly opposite way does nothing but give men a chip on their shoulder to possibly re-tip them later on your descendants' daughters.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. Makes no sense unless they see this as the first step toward granting a fetus personhood

Also why not just lower voting age to 13 or something?

[musette_sf]

43. You are correct

"The new constitution, which Fidesz can push through because of their coalition's two-thirds majority in parliament, also includes articles that protect the life of a foetus "from conception" and preserves "the institution of marriage between man and woman"."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Do EU rules allow crap like this? -nt

[musette_sf]

44. You are correct

"The new constitution, which Fidesz can push through because of their coalition's two-thirds majority in parliament, also includes articles that protect the life of a foetus "from conception" and preserves "the institution of marriage between man and woman"."

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. I'm sure that the Duggars would like this idea

[alphafemale]

59. My thoughts exactly. Absolutely retched idea. One ADULT person. One vote.

period. Seriously. How hard is that?

[Travelman]

41. This is just dumber than dirt

Create some sort of inequality in order to "erase" some perceived inequality? That's just stupid.

Hungarians, of course, may do as they wish, but this whole idea is just moronic. I know: since Christianity is on the decline in the US, let's give Christians two votes instead of one! That ought to even things out right there!



Dumb. Just dumb.

[Retrograde]

46. Some countries once gave mothers special medals

to encourage them to have more of the "right" kind of children. I see this proposal as another way of reminding women that their proper place is at home, raising children. I don't know what the specific situation in Hungary is, but in many European countries the birthrate for the native, Euro-ancestried population is below replacement rate.

[U4ikLefty]

47. Just give men 3/5 of a vote.

It worked so well in the past.

[sudopod]

75. Help, help, I'm being oppressed, lol nt

[FLPanhandle]

49. Bad as it rewards women who have children

Human population is the world's biggest problem.

It would be better to give a women an extra vote as long as they are childless.

[LisaM]

53. What about women (like me) who are NOT mothers?

I do have nieces and nephews that I care about, and I would certainly like as much of a voice in preparing for their future has someone who's actually had a child.

Yet another way to disenfranchise the childless.

[Throd]

58. You have no stake in the future so your opinion doesn't count.

[boppers]

66. Shouldn't slaveholders get extra votes, too?

In contrast to the OP, the children do *not* get the vote, the mothers do, so this isn't more democracy, it's less.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. true. also since when have we deemed children capable of the cognitive decisions

that are needed for voting?

[Odin2005]

84. Wow, I can't believe people are saying this misogynistic BS is good legislation.

This just feeds into the misogynistic notion that a woman's only value to a society is in popping out babies.

There is a reason it is a RW party pushing this, it is hysterical reactionary fears about low birth rates leading to declining populations.