(Supreme) Court weighs state law banning violent video games from children

[alp227]

Source: CNN

Washington (CNN) -- "Postal 2" features the adventures of the "Postal Dude," an interactive video game character who under the control of the player must confront everyday tasks.

But it is how he handles these errands -- beheading girls, shooting police and urinating on victims -- that along with other explicit games, has become a constitutional controversy.

Now in a dramatic Supreme Court confrontation, free speech clashed with consumer protection over these so-called violent video games and whether they should be kept out of the hands of children.

The justices Tuesday appeared genuinely torn as they heard oral arguments in the appeal of a state law to regulate the sale of such material to minors.

Justice Antonin Scalia wondered whether the state would in effect be creating a "California Office of Censorship" to determine what is violent content. "We should let the state do that?" he asked.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/02/scotus.video/index.html

[Posteritatis]

1. More idiots who can't read ratings stickers.. (nt)

[The Northerner]

2. +1

[lazarus]

3. Wow

I actually agree with Scalia on something. :shrug:

[Flipper999]

5. Yeah, I know. I agree with him too.

Now I feel like I have to take a long shower. Bleh.

[Xenotime]

4. I hope they ban them.

[thereismore]

6. The ban would impinge on the corporation's right to free speech. Case closed. nt

[Posteritatis]

9. Hopefully the court's take on free speech is more mature than some in this thread, at least

This topic draws censorship fans like moths to a flame, every one of them convinced that all games are marketed to eight-year-olds and bereft of formal ratings.

[AlbertCat]

21. The ban would impinge on the corporation's right to free speech. Case closed.

Would that apply to sex, violent sex or same sex video sex games as well, y'think? Y'know, you've got so much time to seduce and knock up so many girls. Or get knocked up by dudes. Extra points for group sex. Lose points for getting fooled by a transvestite. Gay sex can sometimes add or take away extra points.... depends on who, where and the situation. You can also get rolled by some characters. You must collect health insurance credits to cure any STDs you might get. Then there's dealing with the pregnancies. Health Care points for abortions, maybe. You might have to collect $$$ for adoption services of maybe get lots of money for selling the babies....but don't get caught or you get sent back some levels!

I think I'm on to something! MY free speech!

Hey, if all kinds of violence gets a pass....



(I hate most video games. Shooting at things gets boring.)

[Cleobulus]

31. You do realize that most mainstream games shy away from sex, right?

The ESRB is a lot like the MPAA in one respect, violence is more or less fine, sex, whether healthy portrayed or not is not ok if explicit. You are more likely to get an "AO-Adults Only" rating with nudity in Video Games, and that's a death knell for sales because most stores won't carry the a game with an AO rating. Similar situation to NC-17 rating for movies, a death knell for sales in movie theaters, but NR rated movies are fine in movie stores.

Even M rated games that do have sex show very little, its mostly left to the imagination of the gamer. Even notorious games like GTA show very little sex, even San Andreas, with the "Hot Coffee" mod, unless you download nude skins and install them yourself, the "sex" is with fully clothed people.

And before that, picking up hookers, to give an example, only shows the car rocking, and if you have a way to change the angle to see into it, you see the player and the hooker sitting in their respective seats while the car is rocking.

The games that do have explicit sex generally come in two varieties, unofficial mods to mainstream games, and games made by small studios or individuals that are released online only. The equivalent to these types of games/mods would be fan fiction and low budget indie films. And just like low budget films and fan fiction, these games/mods vary greatly in quality and content. There are a few examples of tasteful ones, Neverwinter Nights had a mod/campaign where one of the endings is a same sex marriage between two women, there are others between men and women, and man and man marriages as well.

And again, when mainstream games do have sex/relationships portrayed, its usually quite tame, not even comparable to R rated movies, games such as Mass Effect, where at most you get a side boob shot, something that you would see in a PG-13 movie, or in Dragon Age:Origins where the characters are in their underwear. The one thing I find interesting is that mainstream games seem to be more willing to have positive or neutral portrayals of same sex relationships, for example, without falling too much into stereotypes as most movies do. Particularly in RPG games, probably because they want people to have the greatest flexibility in how to role play, as it were, and to try to appeal to everyone, they try not to fall into traps that can offend anyone outside of christian fundamentalists.

Of course, not all portrayals are positive, but in recent years it has been a shift, probably matched by the shift in attitudes among gamers themselves, being of mostly the under 35 set.

[24601]

26. And the in-mom's-garage inventor's speech as well. You can't

screw all the corps without affecting the little guy as well.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Please don't cheapen my child's youth by preventing him from participating in virtual killings.n/t

PB

[saigon68]

10. It will get him ready to kill rag heads in Afghan-Nam

[Drale]

8. Ok lets ban children from entering art museums

because art is porn and lets also stop them from listening to music because most music is about sex or drink or violence. While we are at it lets just ban all these things outright, you see how its a slippery slope, and we all know that is how republicans think.

[Poll_Blind]

11. I don't want my child just to VIEW "Rape of the Sabine Women", I think he should be able to...

...PARTICIPATE!

:sarcasm:

That's the difference between viewing a painting in an art gallery and virtually participating in the act depicted.

PB

[Posteritatis]

12. So be a parent instead of demanding the government do it for you. It's not complex. (nt)

[Poll_Blind]

15. You are aware this issue is about regulation of sale to minors, right?

My child can go to the store and purchase a Snickers bar without my permission or knowledge.

My child can not walk into an adult bookstore and purchase a hustler. Or, say, purchase an adult magazine from a 7/11 without providing ID. The attempt to purchase may be without my knowledge but the law prevents sale of the adult material because of its content. It is sold with restrictions.

Because of how lax the laws currently are, my child is likely to be able to walk into a GameStop (but the real offenders are not the big chains who do try to abide by the law) and purchase a very violent (or worse) video game, more or less in the same way the Snickers is purchased. Now most video games are not Postal/Postal 2. Just in the way that most magazines are not Hustler. But for those that fit the criteria there should be restrictions for sale to minors. As in, when not accompanied by an adult or guardian.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that?

:shrug:

PB

[Posteritatis]

16. Because store employees are generally already told they cannot sell M-rated games to little kids

Anecdote away if you will, but that's already the case. That's what those ratings are for in the first place.

[SemperEadem]

17. how often do store employees forget to ask for

ID when selling a rated M game to someone who obviously has no hair sprouting on their face?

I'm 50 and have been asked for ID when purchasing a mature game, so I don't know what disguise your child can come up with that will get him over on a purchase like that.

If one's child is crafty and devious and will go behind their parent's back and purchase something they've been told they cannot have, then those parents have a bigger problem than an M rated video game.

The answer also isn't treating everyone else who like playing M-rated video games like we're a bunch of 8 yr olds.

Be a parent and parent the child instead of trying to be friends with them.

[X_Digger]

33. Actually, the industry does better than others at enforcing the ratings.

Retailers are about 80% compliant, even though the fundies call that 'abysmal'. (hint, google "ESRB PTC abysmal")

eta: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31210/Parents_TV_Council_Criticizes_Abysmal_ESRB_Retail_Compliance.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GamasutraNews+%28Gamasutra+News%29

[Posteritatis]

34. The ban-ban-ban crowd likely wouldn't be happy with 100% compliance. (nt)

[Rebubula]

20. Ahhhh....

....but they have to PLAY them at home!!!

The games already have ratings that clerks are supposed to enforce - however, the world is generally asleep. That means YOU need to be on top of what your kid is doing.

The courts cannot regulate everything and parents need to be more involved.

I play GTA4 at home in my man-cave. My son is NOT allowed to be there when I play AND I lock the game away in my gun safe when I am done. Just like drinking - I can drink, but he cannot.....for now.

[Cleobulus]

24. Yes, and they can buy an R rated movie and watch it at home too...

Such as Hostel, or the Saw movies, there's no law regulating that. R is the equivalent of an M rating for video games, and regulations on movies/books/magazines, outside of obviously pornographic ones are already unconstitutional, so how is this law going to pass constitutional muster?

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

25. Because video games might not count as "art".

Not in the perspectives of the old fogeys on the bench, anyway. Video games are a relatively new medium, and they don't get the respect and recognition that more established forms of expression, like songs and books, do. Admittedly, that's partly the fault of the video game community, which tends to be very insular, and doesn't do enough to counter popular stereotypes of the medium's audience.

The people who blame Grand Theft Auto for youth crime are from the same mold as the ones who blamed Batman, Dungeons and Dragons, the Matrix, and Ozzy Osbourne. We've seen this shit happen before, and the industries affected always bounced back (though sometimes they had to hit the ground uncomfortably hard first). But I can't help feeling a bit leery over the idea that this new medium's foreseeable future is going to be in the hands of nine people whose most informed question on the topic will be "That's that 'nintindo' thing my grandson's always talking about, right?"

[Cleobulus]

27. To be honest, they don't have to consider it "art" anyways, its a form of expression...

and that's all that matters, most of it is crap, just like all other forms of media, but its still protected by the First Amendment.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

28. Not if the supremes decide it isn't. (n/t)

[Cleobulus]

32. True, but I'm not too worried, generally the courts frown on such regulation...

and it seems to be bipartisan. Besides that, this could have far reaching affects, causing lawsuits and or laws to try to regulate the sales of movies, books, etc. in stores as well, I don't see that ending well. This isn't the first time such laws were passed regarding video games, and all the previous ones were struck down by the courts every time.

[JonLP24]

30. I don't blame myself for stereotypes

and I generally don't care what people think. You bring up GTA, the first 3 were ripped off of from popular movies such as Godfather and Scarface. The fourth one was more creative and created a story of its own.

The only thing that will get me to play something else besides a sports game is a fun game with a good story.

[Drale]

19. Your not a gamer

I am and I have never played a game that invovled rape and dont bring up the "hot coffee" thing because that will just show how much you dont know. The fact is if you dont want your kids playing violent video games, then its up to you as a parent to make sure they dont.

[Moostache]

13. Control begins and ends with the parents...

Otherwise, I want MY rights to start dictating to religious people what content THEY can show or allow THEIR children to see or partake! The morality police can fuck right off in my world.

This is really a simple issue, games - like movies and music - have ratings. Those ratings are to provide a consumer or a parent with the idea of what is in a game and decide to purchase it or allow their children to play it. If people are REALLY upset about games in the hands of minors, then they need to go after societal pressures that have made a two-parent income a necessity or go after the incidence of single mothers with no father involved in the child's rearing. Get to the core issues and get the fuck off the periphery!

Enforce the existing sticker and distribution laws at the store level and let the federal government focus on more important business...

[Posteritatis]

14. It's amazing how fervently people refuse to recognize those little ratings signs

Everyone who loves the banning reflex seems to think Postal 2 or GTA4 is marketed towards little eight-year-old Timmy because everyone knows games are all for children, because that's how it was in the eighties and the demographic's not aged a day.

They then get all shocked and outraged when people ask them whether they let their kids watch R or NC-17-rated movies. "But but but but that's different!"

[woo me with science]

18. The GOVERNMENT has nothing better to do? nt

[Meatball]

22. Umm.. isn't that why we have ratings on games?

some nice quotes from the article:

"the existing nationwide industry-imposed, voluntary ratings system is an adequate screen for parents to judge the appropriateness of computer games."

then right after that:

"The state says it has a legal obligation to protect children when the industry has failed to do so."

Say what??? shouldn't that read when the PARENTS failed? I mean, the ratings on video games are pretty simple. Anything but M or AO is probably fine for any kid to play. Parents have to parent their kids, not the state.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

23. You're not going to believe this...

Rush has actually spoken up against video game regulation.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/104874-Rush-Limbaugh-Sticks-Up-for-Video-Games

I believe that video games are a legitimate art form, and should have the same Constitutional protections as books, comics, and movies. But seeing Fat Bastard weigh in on the same side as me on any issue gives me pause.

I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day. Or in Rush's case, a cuckoo clock...

[JonLP24]

29. Obviously I'm against this

I played violent games before I turned 18.

[lostnfound]

35. How is this different from banning selling alcohol to minors?

Couldn't we just have warning labels on alcohol saying that it was recommended for minors not to use it?
'Beheading girls' would be considered hate speech if it were depicting heading only blacks or Jews, wouldn't it?
A little societal norm that supports parents trying to do the right thing by their children makes good parenting possible. Is it too much to ask that other adults be prohibited from selling alcohol directly to minors or showing porn to minors or engaging minors in 'beheading games', so that parents have a reasonable societal expectation that their kids won't be CONSTANTLY subjected to pressure to engage in these things every time he visits the neighbor's house? Because these things are getting so pervasive that it is EXHAUSTING to fight against the onslaught of a culture that glorifies its bloodthirsty appetite. It's no accident that the DOD spends millions supporting these things, and it's no accident that the likes of Scalia will support it too. The empire needs to desensitize its youth at every opportunity.

[DerBeppo]

38. every console a parent buys a child

has an option to disallow M and AO rated games. No law needed.

[lostnfound]

39. Kids spend time with their friends too

And in the tween years there's tremendous peer pressure for the kids to play violent video games. At age 8 or 9 birthday parties the vans start showing up with Halo etc. I would prefer to see it more socially unacceptable, which can be accomplished by banning the sale to minors, so adults will have to think about it. It is a FLOOD, and hard for parents to constantly fight.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

37. Enjoying watching the Supreme Court cut the case to shreds...

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/03/judges-say-the-funniest-things/

Justice Sotomayor: One of the studies, the Anderson study, says that the effect of violence is the same for a Bugs Bunny episode as it is for a violent video. So can the legislature now, because it has that study, outlaw Bugs Bunny?
Morazzini: No.

Justice Kagan: Would a video game that portrayed a Vulcan as opposed to a human being, being maimed and tortured, would that be covered by the act?
Morazzini: No, it wouldn’t, because the act is only directed towards the range of options that are able to be inflicted on a human being.
Justice Sotomayer: So if the video producer says this is not a human being, it’s an android computer simulated person, then all they have to do is put a little artificial feature on the creature and they could sell the video game?
Morazzini: Under the act, yes, because California’s concern, I think this is one of the reasons that sex and violence are so similar, these are base physical acts we are talking about, Justice Sotomayor. So limiting, narrowing our law here in California, there in California to violence = violent depictions against human beings.
Justice Sotomayer: So what happens when the character gets maimed, head chopped off and immediately after it happens they spring back to life and they continue their battle. Is that covered by your act? Because they haven’t been maimed and killed forever. Just temporarily.