Video depicting killing by U.S. troops in Iraq is real, (Anonymous US Military) official says

[kpete]

Source: Los Angeles Times

Video depicting killing by U.S. troops in Iraq is real, official says
The Internet footage of U.S. troops firing on a group of men, some unarmed, is authentic, a U.S. military official says.

Washington - A grainy war video circulating on the Internet that shows U.S. troops firing repeatedly on a group of men -- some of whom were unarmed -- walking down a Baghdad street is authentic, a senior U.S. military official confirmed Monday.

The official said the video posted at Wikileaks.org was of a July 12, 2007, incident involving Army helicopters in the New Baghdad district on the east side of the capital.

Among those believed to have been killed in that attack was Reuters photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and his driver Saeed Chmagh, 40. Two children were wounded.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the video, said the military could not confirm the identities of the Reuters employees in the film.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq-shooting6-2010apr06,0,800449.story

[sui generis]

1. I finally looked at the video

I'm leaning towards they clearly misidentified the camera as a weapon that could bring down a chopper, and that triggered the chain of events. Most damning of all was swinging the camera profile past the corner, which made it look like a weapon preparing for use. When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail.

HOWEVER, to play devil's advocate to that observation, I also think that "insurgents" would not have been walking around right in the open if they had mischief in mind, and more of them would have had weapons at ready if they HAD mischief in mind. These guys were walking bare handed - I would have been a little less willing to make a mistake and err on the side of caution.

So now to put some extremely well deserved salt in this wound. Maybe if the fucking army hadn't fired all their gay arabic and farsi translators (local language groups, et al), a simple PA could have led to avoiding bloodshed. Maybe even english mighta worked, who knows. :shrug:

This was clearly a shoot first, ask questions later operation, and certainly merely one of many times many. They don't hate us because we're beautiful. . . .

[matt819]

2. Nice try

Okay, okay, I've never been in the position of these troops.

But. . .

They claimed they were being fired upon. They weren't. In my view, that's the key point.

You'd think they could tell the difference between a camera and a weapon. A post yesterday observed that while the video shown online was grainy, the troops had better resolution.

They fired on unarmed people trying to help the wounded. I suppose they would claim that those helping presumed insurgents were also insurgents. At the same time, the rescuers were not firing on the helicopter, and ground troops were obviously nearby and could have responded and made that determination.

The apparent - some would say obvious - cover-up by the military officials quoted in the video and in press reports would suggest that the military knew full well what happened.

This is nothing less than a war crime.

[cowman]

3. Well until

you have been fired upon you don't know what goes thru our minds, when I was in Vietnam I thought everything was a weapon being pointed at me so I can definitly sympathize with the chopper crew. Not saying it's right, just saying I would probably have done the same thing in the same situation. I feel sorry for these troops because they have to live with this mistake for the rest of their lives

[sui generis]

5. that's the human and humane view of this situation.

But absolutists with black and white views of a colorful world are probably the reason we ever perpetuate war to begin with.

It's just surprising to see them on a liberal discussion site.

[pasto76]

7. this is definitely not a black and white situation

almost by definition nothing in Iraq is. Check my other posts. From what I have seen and read about this, I do not support the actions of these pilots. If something new arises, I may change my opinion.

SGT PASTO

[tabasco]

49. I don't either.

I was a grunt and, in my experience, the most bloodthirsty assholes were guys who could sit a mile away and pull triggers.

The grunts in this operation got to find the wounded little girl and didn't sound too happy about it.

Meanwhile, the chopper pilots continued their cowardly inhumanity, joking about the shit.

[pasto76]

6. glad you were in Nam, I was in Iraq...

this video shows lack of Positive ID, lack of hostile acts, lack of hostile intent on the primary group.

This video shows lack of positive ID, lack of hostile acts, and lack of hostile intent on the people arriving in the van.

According to a troop who is in Iraq right now, who posted in yesterdays thread, "evidence" is not considered protected property. This is another lacking.

This video shows us a cavalier attitude from the pilots. This video shows us the pilots assuming alot of things.

take into account the DISTANCE from which they were "observing" - about 1 mile, and I, as an Iraq Combat Veteran, cannot see any justification for firing on these people.

SGT PASTO

[axollot]

10. Very true. I thought about all of that as well. Thank you for your service too!

[cowman]

11. Glad you made it safely home

I'm not excusing it, I'm saying to those that have never been in combat like you and me to not jump to conclusions until the investigation is over. If there was a cover-up and these troops did commit atrocities, then they need to be court martialed and punished. My problem is when certain people automatically assume that they are war criminals before they'ev even been tried. Let's not be like the RW whackos and lets wait for the investigation.

BTW my daughter did 3 tours with the MPs now shes a Las Vegas Police Officer.

As one combat vet to another, thank you for your service to our country

[EFerrari]

20. But we already know there was a cover up. The Pentagon refused

to release the video to Reuters. That's why Wikileaks released it instead.

[axollot]

22. No one doubts that - but I am looking at who's ass was responsible. n/t

[EFerrari]

24. They started putting together a story before they even left the area.

I picked that up when watching the video. One of them says, "we engaged BECAUSE there was an RPG" and he was telling these people what his rationale would be. He says that after the missiles go in and before those two men run with the kids. They knew.

But blaming them is like blaming those kids from West Virginia for Abu Graib. It doesn't even begin to address the real responsibility for this clusterf#ck, imo.

[cowman]

23. I'm not saying there wasn't cover-p

I'm saying that before we start branding them guilty or calling them war criminals lets wait for the investigation is complete. Have you ever been in combat? Alot of things go thru your mind when you are under so much stress 24/7 and it takes a toll on your mental judgement, so please every one, lets not be like RW whackos and jump to conclusions

[EFerrari]

25. Actually, you were questioning whether there was a cover-up.

Clearly war crimes were committed and knowing that doesn't make me like a right wing wacko. It makes me someone who can see what is in front of my face.

But blaming these people is useless. They're doing exactly what they were sent there to do. It's like blaming rain for falling down and not in some other direction. I blame BushCo and after them, that psychopath Rumsfeld's leadership and now the career Bush fixer Gates' leadership.

Obama has to get these people the hell out of there.

[cowman]

26. Actually

no I wasn't. What I said was that if there was a cover-up then there should be a court martial and punishment, and I never accused YOU of being a RW whacko. All I said was if you've never been in combat you will never know what its like to be under the stress like that 24/7.

[EFerrari]

27. You may be right, although there are noncombat situations that are stressful 24/7.

Marriage, for instance. (J/k, some marriages don't qualify as noncombat situations.)

[cowman]

28. Your right about marriage

Thank you for injecting some humor into this. I needed a good laugh.
Well I've got to go do some fire training today so you have a hell of a great day

Peace Out:fistbump:

[EFerrari]

29. You, too, cowman.

:hi:

[sabrina 1]

56. The investigation IS over. That's the point of the release of the

video. The investigation's conclusions were lies, and someone in the military knew they were lying and managed to get this video, which Reuters had tried to get for two years, into the hands of WikiLeaks.

So, I'm not sure what you mean by 'wait until the investigation is over'. For the victims families, the fact that lies were told about their dead loved ones, who were wrongfully characterized as having brought about their own deaths, this is vindication for them.

The man who pulled up in his truck and tried to help the wounded civilian was killed. His two children wounded and left without a father. Lies were told in the report about their father. Now the truth is out.

As far as I know, the military has not issued any statement that now there will be another investigation. But why would they? They had this video, they knew Reuters wanted to see it, and they allowed the lies to stand.

[we can do it]

15. Thank you for the well thought out comments

[TheMadMonk]

30. Vid shows more than that. Vid shows those in the chopper cooking/distorting....

...the intel in order to get permission to open fire.

They wanted a reason to play with their toys, and lied through their teeth to get it.


It might, just might, barely be possible to give them the benefit of the doubt on the presence of a rifle, but not a chance on the RPG. (Even my untrained eye can tell the difference between an RPG and the trapezoidal outline of a camera lens with anti-glare shroud.) But one (possible) rifle being carried at waist height was not the intel passed on. The claim was multiple AK-47s and RPGs.

And I can clearly see that the two in the passenger seat of the van were well under 5 feet in height and much smaller than the men that pass in front of them at least twice, before the pilots opened fire. Either the pilots didn't care that they were firing on children, or more likely were so busy looking for reasons to shoot that they simply did not see them.

I would dearly like to be able to rule out the first possibility entirely. However, Mai Lai and innumerable other similar incidents in Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Central America, Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere make that impossible. Even the behaviour of US military personel on leave in allied countries and the stereotypical American tourist, wherever he goes, speaks very very loudly. There are Americans, and then there are the lesser peoples of the world.

I know this is not true of all Americans, but it most certainly representative of the face that America as a nation presents to the world.

[Pavulon]

34. Sounded like bushmaster (bradley) was calling shots.

would be interesting to see the position of infantry off camera and if they were in contact while this took place. Attitude is not important, either they followed ROE or didn't. A guy who just royally fucked up generally does not call for people to come and take pictures, in my experience with people fucking up on a large scale in the military. Loose your NVG your fucked, loose vehicles in a fucked up air drop and creativity comes to light.

Questionable sure, so is dead checking a guy already on the deck. But that flew. No dogpiles or executions of prisoners in zip ties. NO clear crime. Sure they could go make an example of a CWO or maybe a 1lt, but the real blame lies with guys in suits who perpetuate this.

Its bad foreign policy, and the effect of two branches of government paying for and ordering a war. I wonder what these guys would do with GCF from a predator strike in pakistan from last week?

This is happening right now. The pitchfork and torches crew here just cant see the footage.

[axollot]

8. Yeah. I'm a hard lefty but have been defending the troops on this - to a degree -

1) the talk between them has been scrutinized when really that is how you live with yourself doing what you are doing. (right?)
2) I havent been in war but can empathize easily that the camera (and I'm a photographer) looked like a weapon and like you said - everything does.
3) The main f up IMHO was the van. (it all was an eff-up obviously) but they had 0 grounds to lite the van up and did so for the hell of it really.

Finally, ultimately this was and is the commands fault. Rules of engagement being what they are, no one fired upon the van till they gave the OK.

Just my opinion. The rules of engagement need to change for this type of city warfare, so many civilians have been killed, many in situations much more horrific and obvious than this video. Hopefully this vid will help us pull out of the middle east though. One can hope something outrages everyone enough.

Cheers
Sandy

[sui generis]

13. Agreed there for sure.

My question is, people up to no good don't wander around in an open group in the open without a lot of evidence of weapons.

And soldiers should at least cogitate on that even in the absence of modernized rules of engagement for urban warfare. Without really imminent and apparent danger, what's the chance that I'm making a mistake and shooting a non-combatant dad or brother or son, and what are the consequences of that?

We need thinking soldiers and commanders, precisely because the world is not black and white in any universe. Not to make an excuse but in virtually every history and occupation in every culture and war, being male and alive in the occupation is coequal with being the enemy, and that's clearly still true today, however wrong.

[cowman]

In Vietnam

I was a Navy Seabee stationed at a wonderful place in Dong Ha and we supported the Marine base at Con Thien, fought along side of them and I can remember many a time that we would light up the surrounding areas because we thought we saw something, most times it turned out to be an animal or something but we did get in some pretty big firefights so I can understand what these troops were going thru

[axollot]

21. Thank you!

[we can do it]

14. Wow, Nothing Was Pointed at Anyone Here

No one was doing anything out of the ordinary and most definately no one was near the murderers - got anything else?

[cowman]

16. You ever been in combat?

If not then you have no clue as to what we face every day. Not being disparaging, just pointing out the facts

[we can do it]

47. FU - I Have Been on Scene Where There Were Shots Being Fired

so stick your better than thou attitude-= NO ONE WAS FUCKING THREATENING THE COLD BLOODED MURDERERS

[RainMickey]

48. Sorry Charlie, I think you're wrong.

Did you watch the video? First off, there were American troops in the area. Several of those guys on the ground appeared to be armed. The guy who peeked around the corner of the building (apparently from a crouched position) clearly stuck something into view that looked like a weapon, an RPG to be exact. The pilots were very confident of what they were seeing and convinced the guys on the ground were a threat to American forces.

How things were handled by the military brass after the scene was inspected by ground troops is an entirely different matter.

The chopper crews acted in a very professional manner IMHO. If I was on the ground under those conditions, I'd want them covering my ass from above.

[sailor65]

17. +1

Civvies will never understand what it's like, or the effect it has on us.

[cowman]

18. So true

They think that every thing is black and white in war. They don't understand the split second decisions that we have to make or the sheer terror of arty screaming over us or having to pick up your dead and wounded after a battle. The only one I can talk to about my time in Nam is other vets like my daughter.
Judging by your handle, you are a vet also, thank you for your service to our country

[axollot]

19. No but not all of us are clueless. I watched the long video, without knowing a thing about it -

I tried to see it exactly as it was being seen. (seeing the whole video helps) And, what I would do (with no training, except in guns). It sounded like there was ground support in the beginning of the video that 1st radioed in that there were weapons. Someone radioed in that there was firing - no one in the video could see it but that doesnt mean you are not being fired upon for sure - especially from that distance in an Apache!
I could hear in the cock sure kid that fired upon the van, he tried to justify it right when he found out there were kids hurt. He tried to find a way to live with it. That kid has to also live with the failure of his command to help him keep his trigger finger in check too. Guy like this gets his own guys killed.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's how it sounded to me.

Cheers
Sandy

[kas125]

32. So are you saying thatthe rules say it's okay for them to kill a

group of people walking down the street if one of those people does have a gun and isn't using it or doing anything threatening with it? I'm not in the military so I don't know, but I thought that if they used force, it had to be proportional to the threat. I saw no threat from those people even if both the camera and the tripod had been guns.

[Pavulon]

33. Its not a proportional thing. Not police soft hands

if they called out an rpg or ak they could shoot them. And they did. This is a continuing byproduct of waging war.

The person calling in the air cover was in a bradley off screen. "bushmaster" is the type of cannon used in a bradley.

[cowman]

35. Respectfully

no thats not what I am saying, what I'm saying is unless you've been in combat you really cant understand the physical and mental stress that you go thru 24/7 and I can understand their state of mind, not saying it was a righteous shoot, just saying the stress they were under, now if it was an atrocity then they and whoever gave the order to light them up need to be court martial-ed and punished, but lets wait until the investigation is completed.

I hope I've cleared that up

[kas125]

40. I was just trying to find out what the rules for killing people

actually are. Are they to kill anyone with a gun? Kill anyone who looks as if they might become a threat? Kill anyone who is shooting at you? I don't know, but I tried to find out and what I discovered from rewatching the "rules of engagement" segment of the Iraq war veterans version of Winter Soldier, is it seems that the rules kept changing and nobody really knew what they were from day to day.

[cowman]

41. I wasn't there so I can't really say

what the chopper crewman THOUGHT they saw, but from my experiences in Vietnam, when you are under such mental stress, what may look like a camera to a civilian may look like an RPG to a soldier who may or may not be on their 3 or 4th deployment. Not trying to excuse it, just trying to give you an idea of what MAY have transpired.

[kas125]

44. I know, but even if it looked like a gun instead of a camera,

are they allowed to just shoot someone who is walking down the street with a gun over his shoulder and isn't threatening anyone? THAT is what I want to know. Are they allowed, by the real rules of engagement, to shoot everyone on the street if one person is carrying a gun but isn't threatening anyone with it?

[ShortnFiery]

55. What investigation, it was already covered up and buried.

The only ANGER is the fact that some "do gooder" put the TRUTH out there in the form of this video.

[Crowman1979]

39. Although there is a big difference between Iraq and Vietnam.

No Trees or any other natural type cover is available in Iraq. Plus with the unlimited visibility, I'm not really buying the whole couldn't really identify the weapons story.

[cowman]

43. You are certainly right about that

[TorchTheWitch]

52. yes they could have - and they DID in the second incident

They watched these guys strolling casually down the street and had plenty of time to zoom in for a better look at what they were carrying, but instead at the very first long range glimps it's "oh yeah that's a weapon" when all they could see was a peek of something held on by a shoulder strap.

Twenty minutes later after all their shoot-em-up fun and games they're told that shots were heard back at the site where the original engagement took place that was the reason the Apaches were called out to begin with to look for insurgents. THIS time they DID zoom in to positively ID they weapons that were being carried and verbally "PID'd" (positively ID'd) they were carrying weapons. Those insurgents acted furtively, tried to hide what they were carrying and darted into the building that they blew up - the SAME building that was the one involved with the original shooting incident that was the reason the Apaches were sent out in the first place. THIS time they were much more careful in PIDing the insurgents with ACTUAL weapons, carefully observed the building and identified it to each other repeatedly as appearing abandoned/under construction (although as it turned out there were 3 families in that got blasted), and there was absolutely no talking smack about the individuals even though THIS time they knew they had the right people.

And the shooting of Saeed (the wounded man) who was being helped by passerbys with the kids in the van was completely inexcuseable... they wanted to shoot them so badly they LIED to get permission to shoot by saying the passerbys were picking up "the body AND WEAPONS" which they very clearly were not knowing that if they didn't claim that weapons were picked up they would be denied permission to shoot.

People need to see the full length uncut video to see the marked difference in the behavior of these guys, because that itself makes it obvious what they SHOULD have done and COULD have done the first time had they WANTED to. That's exactly why this claim of stress, etc., etc. doesn't wash.

[Crowman1979]

53. Plus, even if their were us or allied soldiers in the area, this probably would have turned into...

...fraticide! To me it sounds like some hot-shot rookie gunner was impatient and the pilot or flight leader didn't bother to either calm him down shut him up. He better not be flying right now, that's for damn sure. I know in the USMC or even a well-disciplined Army unit for that matter, the helo crew would have been replaced and ordered back to base to receive an ass-chewing of epic proportion.

[sui generis]

4. nice try?

I'm not trying. This is a discussion board where sharing our observations and sometimes conclusions is the modus.

If you think I have an agenda just say so, because I'd like to answer that directly using direct language, and not innuendo.

Just preparing you to have a fighting chance of not having your ass handed to you, if you choose that mission.

I wanted to add, in less combative terms, that it is a tragedy. To call something a "war crime" implies a completely different set of intention and even character about those soldiers. I'm not giving anyone a free pass on this, but calling it a war tragedy is probably more appropriate, given the circumstance.

Certainly I wouldn't qualify myself as an armchair soldier or field strategist in any capacity, but I really don't think that shooting a bunch of people just for kicks is what was going on, given the vocal track.

That's my opinion - not my agenda.

[Lagomorph]

50. I'd like to know what was going on....

...before and after the video before I reach any conclusions. Reuters was there, the helicopters were there, something must have been going on.

[florida08]

9. I would agree

I don't think these pilots were out looking to murder anyone. The apache helicopter is designed for frontline environment. It's what they do. Perhaps if they had had sound along with the visual or if they had a groundsman reporting what was being said and what he saw this could have been avoided. The pilots were antsy. This along with the uninformed leadership who gave the order to shoot set up this gratuitous carnage. As we heard they had no personnel in that location. They were all convinced they had weapons. For me their attitudes about the people they just mowed down were repulsive. But they will have to live with it.

On the day of the attack, United States military officials said that the helicopters had been called in to help American troops who had been exposed to small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades in a raid. “There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force,” Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad, said then.;

[axollot]

12. There was ground from my understanding *shrug* n/t

[Duer 157099]

31. I think I can count on one hand the number of things the military says that I believe

and this is one of them (that the video is real).

When the shooter was trying to get approval to "light up" the van, here's what my brain interpreted him saying:

"Hey! They're getting away! They're taking a wounded guy and getting away! Can I shoot them??? Please??? They're GETTING AWAY!!"

ie, "Please may I shoot them in the back?"

I might let them squeak by for having made a gross, stupid and deadly mistake for the first round of killings, but the second one (the van) should be the one that gets some people in serious trouble.

[tburnsten]

36. I won't watch this for the same reason I won't watch the Daniel Pearl video

Because it would make me sick, though for different reasons. I don't even know which is worse to tell you the truth. The Pearl video was much more intimate, but the idea of fellow U.S. Servicemembers doing what they are accused of and shown doing is awful.

I guess I just really like life (even though it's been a massive shitwreck for me lately) and can't imagine those poor bastards felt any differently.

And the thought of children being harmed in war, which I know is a fact of life, just kills me. It's a true tragedy the world that those kids are growing up in.

I'm glad they survived at least, though that's a horrible thing to have as a "positive".

[fascisthunter]

37. wow... I can't believe the people here spinning this... this was a massacre

[Crowman1979]

38. Not to mention the product of our glorified over-militarized society.

Sometimes we treat the military as they are the star quaterback of the HS football team who breaks the law. As if we have to keep him out of jail for assault charges because the big game is next week.

[fascisthunter]

45. it happens alot in this country... too much admiration for those in authoritative positions

unquestioning loyalty is not good for any democracy.

[cowman]

42. Maybe it was

and maybe it wasn't. Were you there? No disrespect, but have you ever been in combat where you never know if you are going to live another minute much less another day. It takes a huge physical and mental toll, and I just wonder how many tours thesr troopers have had. When I was in Vietnam it got so I would look at every Vietnamese and think of them as the enemy and anything in their hands was a weapon, that kind of stress really fucks with your mind. Now if the investigation shows that it was an atrocity, then by all means, prosecute and punish them along with whoever gave the order to light them up

[fascisthunter]

46. I understand war can do that to folks, but it still is a bad excuse

once you do that, you have to do it for all other instances like this. That's why this needs to be discouraged... I don't need to be a soldier to understand this... I see it with my own two eyes, and so do others who did serve.

[classysassy]

51. Greed kills

Turn off the television,go to your local library find a history book about the founding of this country.Maybe some of the exploits of our soldiers will give you a different view of war and the suffering we as a nation imposed on others in order to gain control of their natural resources.

[Judi Lynn]

54. 'As I watch the footage, anger calcifies in my heart'

'As I watch the footage, anger calcifies in my heart'
A novelist and former prisoner of Saddam Hussein's regime gives her reaction to the Wikileaks Iraq video
Haifa Zangana
The Guardian, Saturday 10 April 2010

I know the area where this massacre was committed. It is a crowded working-class area, a place where it is safe for children to play outdoors. It is near where my two aunts and their extended families lived, where I played as a child with my cousins Ali, Khalid, Ferial and Mohammed. Their offspring still live there.

The Reuters photographer we see being killed so casually in the film, Namir Noor-Eldeen, did not live there, but went to cover a story, risking his life at a time when most western journalists were imbedded with the military. Noor-Eldeen was 22 (he must have felt extremely proud to be working for Reuters) and single. His driver Saeed Chmagh, who is also seen being killed, was 40 and married. He left behind a widow and four children, adding to the millions of Iraqi widows and orphans.

Witnesses to the slaughter reported the harrowing details in 2007, but they had to wait for a western whistleblower to hand over a video before anyone listened. Watching the video, my first impression was, I have no impression. But the total numbness gradually grows into a now familiar anger. I listen to the excited voices of death coming from the sky, enjoying the chase and killing. I whisper: do they think they are God?

"Light 'em all up!" one shooter says.

"Ah, yeah, look at those dead bastards. Nice," says another.

"Well, it's their fault bringing their kids into the battle," one says when ground troops discover two children among the wounded.

In their Apache helicopter, with their sophisticated killing machinery, US soldiers seem superhuman. The Iraqis, on the ground, appear only as nameless bastards, Hajjis, sandniggers. They seem subhuman – and stripping them of their humanity makes killing them easy.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/apr/10/wikileaks-collateral-murder-iraq-video

[ShortnFiery]

57. + 1000

What if it were two of our children in THAT van?

Would it be OK if the Chinese were occupying the USA to "Light 'em all up!"

EMPATHY? We could be those innocent civilians if we had been born in "the wrong" country.