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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:33 AM
Original message
Pope faces protests on British visit over attack on equality laws
Source: Telegraph

The campaign would be made up of gay groups, victims of clerical abuse, feminists, family planning organisations and pro-abortion groups among others. NSS president Terry Sanderson said: "The taxpayer in this country is going to be faced with a bill of some 20 million for the visit of the Pope.

"A visit in which, he has already indicated, he will attack equal rights and promote discrimination. "We have a petition online where people can make clear their opposition to the state funding of this visit."

Labour MEP Stephen Hughes hit back after the Pope warned that the UK Equality Bill would be unfair on religious communities. "As a Catholic, I am appalled by the attitude of the Pope. Religious leaders should be trying to eradicate inequality, not perpetuate it. "Inequality is at the root of many social problems. Instead of criticising the UK's plans to improve its legislation, the Pope should ensure that existing EU legislation is properly applied in the Vatican."

Dr Evan Harris, Liberal Democrat equality spokesman, said: "Britain's equality laws protect both Catholics and gay people from unfair discrimination, and in employment we are governed by exactly the same rules as Catholic Italy. "Religious people can be reassured that there is nothing in the Equality Bill which imposes gay priests on religions, but it does protect the general workforce from prejudiced employers."

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7137480/Pope-faces-protests-on-British-visit-over-attack-on-equality-laws.html
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Pople comes to slander and to lie
Which is what he and his people know, and it seems, all that they know. Haiti is 2/3 Catholic, and yet we see the priorities of the Church, attacking minorities, meddling in politics, keeping Ratsy in the finest of silks and emeralds, these are the important jobs for the RCC. First things first, hail Mary and all of that. Haiti? Who cares, there might be equal rights in the UK! Grab my Prada, it's time for action!
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yep, that's the word: Religionist bigots constantly tell LIES.
:grr:

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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. He needs to wrap up in his lace skirts and go back home
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Pope+Meets+President+Obama+794Zsw3rdfYl.jpg
Oh, and I think the president should be in the center of this picture. Though I guess it is symbolic that Papa stands separating man and woman, husband and wife, as he also stands between and separates faith and freedom.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Notice the veils in that photo...
I grew up Catholic. When I was a kid, women weren't allowed to enter a Catholic church without covering their heads. So most women bought chapel veils. They usually were not the kind worn by the women in that photo. Most were circular lace "doilies" about the size of a salad plate. They came in white and black. It was ridiculous. There were always a few gals who forgot to bring the damned thing, so they would literally take a kleenex and clip it to the top of their head with a bobby pin. So you'd always see a few women walking to their pew with a damned kleenex on their head that was fluttering in the breeze. You just couldn't make this shit up. As a young boy, I used to wonder why women put up with that crap.

But back to that photo... I find it unsettling that the women in that photo are quasi-endorsing that old, discriminatory practice by wearing those veils. Some things you just shouldn't do as a matter of principle, and considering this practice of head-covering originated from an underlying contempt for women... well, some things trump "respecting" your host.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think the veil was suggested for diplomatic reasons
Almost nobody wears them anymore in most parishes. I guess someone at the White House or the Vatican recommended all women wear the chapel veil for this meeting and picture.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. In a sane world it would be the POPE who would be asked to nix the lace dress and ruby slippers...
...for diplomatic reasons. Instead we have women being asked to cover their heads in "His Weirdness's" presence. If I were a woman in that situation, and I knew about the hierarchy's long history of contempt for women, I'd have told whoever recommended the veil to shove it up his ass - and I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that the recommender was a "he".
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. The world needs no popes.
Kudos to all these folks for speaking out about the hypocrisy and outright lies flowing from the vatican.

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Heathen57 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hard to believe just how hypocritical
this pope is. He says UK's laws present "limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs" as if his religion's beliefs should be allowed to stomp out the rights of other citizens. Honestly, I am waiting to hear him declare that they can no longer burn everybody else at the stake, it is putting "limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs".

As I've said so many times before, the RCC is trying to force their draconian dogma onto all with no regard to the times they now live in. They are locked in the 12th century where they controlled the majority of civilization and could force their beliefs on others often on the pain of death. Since this pope's previous job was the office of the inquisition, the insight is compelling.

Once again, the RCC shows their worship of their dogma over the lives and quality of life for the children of the world. One spokesman complained that the Church had to close adoption agencies because they couldn't discriminate against Gays. I guess that it's better for those children to languish in poor conditions without love than to allow adoptions to gays - even though every study proves that gays are as good if not better parents than heteros. (especially religious fanatics IMO). But in spite of it all, science and even common sense, dogma is revered. And of course you only have to look at the reports of the Irish orphanages and the Madeline laundries to tell how the RCC treats children in their care. I don't even have to mention the priest molestations.

The whole executive branch of the RCC is stuck in the past, basking in the memories of absolute power. It is time for them to crawl out of those lustful dreams and join the rest of the world or be regarded as just a relic of an ancient and impotent cult.
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demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Pope Benedict attacks [UK] government over Equality Bill
Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 04:25 AM by demoleft
Source: bbc

The Pope has urged Catholic bishops in England and Wales to fight the UK's Equality Bill with "missionary zeal".

Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions.
...
"In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed."

Gay rights charity Stonewall condemned the Pope's comments, saying equality had to apply to everyone.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8492597.stm



here he goes again. no surprise.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You know, if this guy would spend more time worrying about some of his priests piddiddling with kids
and less time worrying about his idea of "natural law," we'd all be better off.

And speaking of... isn't compartmentalizing people the opposite of natural law. Isn't natural law what happens... naturally? Such as homosexuality? Duh. :eyes:
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demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. oh don't tell me. i have him and his crew here in rome, far too close for my taste. ;) n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Another moron who can't read scripture.
Hermeneutics: not for morons.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Oh yes he can. Both Bible and Christer New Test are clear: Gays Burn
Here is what God says:

Jude 7:
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Lev 18:22-23:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev 20:13:
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

1 Cor 6:9:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

1 Tim 1:9-10:
"...realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

Rom 1:26-27:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

Feel The Love

Sorry, but Papa's understanding of Holy Scripture reveals his true understanding of God's Holy Word which is clearly and unambiguously expressed in His best-sellers.

A gay choosing to be a Christer makes as much sense to me as a woman choosing to be a Muslim.

Actually, I cannot understand anyone choosing to believe in any of these savage superstitions which cast their looming dark shadows of hatred and intolerance from the distant past into the present, indeed, on into the future.

Amen.
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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You didn't quote Jesus or a Gospel once.
And that is because in all of the teachings, sermons, and parables of our lord He does not ONCE directly address homosexuality. He addresses a great many other old teachings for both the purposes of recanting them and reinforcing them, but Homosexuality is left out.

However, Jesus said 1 thing that can be applied to homosexuality <b>"Love thy neighbor as thyself" (Matthew 19:19)</b> everything else was either rendered moot by Him (i.e. everything fromthe old testament) or is the interpretation of an Epistle writer separated from Jesus by as many as 200 years, all of them plagued by their OWN prejudices and interpretations.

Using the Bible to support hate and prejudice is exactly the OPPOSITE of Christianity. Perhaps you spend less time absorbed in your religion and more time finding ways to treat people the way Jesus truly intended.

Also, you should never pretend to understand the judgment of God on anyone, lest you, yourself, suffer that same judgment when you time comes. I do believe Jesus said something about that as well.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. "...everything else was either rendered moot by Him..."
Gee, and here thought I that God-made-flesh Jesus Himself done saith (Matthew 5:17) "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Yeah. I see now how that means He is actually recanting them.

My mistake. Must have misunderstood. Sorry. But I am Hell-bound anyhow. And here I was thinking that the whole bible was God's Revealed Word. Not just the four Gospels ... and if these then are the only True Word of God, then would it not be nice if they actually agreed one with another?

BTW you might have troubled yourself to read MY words, rather than just The Holy words of God which I was simply quoting - and which you deny to be the True Word of God (which seems dangerous for a Believer) - before ascribing to me His Holy Revealed Views:
Pf: "Actually, I cannot understand anyone choosing to believe in any of these savage superstitions which cast their looming dark shadows of hatred and intolerance from the distant past into the present, indeed, on into the future"

God (The Father) summarizing: "Gays Will Burn"

"Perhaps you spend less time absorbed in your religion..." WTF? Ain't my religion, though apparently it is yours, and it was that of others:

"God is with Us"


Oh, and for a treatise revealing the depth of Christian Love, you might want to check out Martin Luther's (the igniter, through God's Grace, of The Reformation) nice work:


"On the Jews and Their Lies"


Miracles never cease: This is the first time I have ever been accused of being a Christer.

Praise God, His Revealed Word, and His Judgment on those who reject His True Word!


If I were in the market for a superstition, I would not pick one that says "Believe or Burn!" No, I would prefer something a bit more gentle.




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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Luther's "on the jews and their lies"
I second the recommendation on this one. I read this work in college while dating a Lutheran pastor's daughter, and it was quite a revelation for me. It is a thoroughly vile piece from start to finish.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. He had a bizarre fecal matter fetish, as well...
Luther was an interesting fellow.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Yes. Driving the Devil away by throwing an "ink pot" at him
was, in Luther's original German manuscript, done by tossing a turd.



He also wrote at length of driving Ole Satan away with massive farts.

Though they were effective, we do not know if they were on the order of God's own Holy Farts as He describes Them in Isaiah 16:11
"Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh."

Since bowel gas is generated by bacteria, does the Holy Colon of God have Holy Bacteria - or is the Holy Flatulence generated only as needed directly by miraculous creation?

Sadly, this is not addressed in Holy Scripture, nor is the burning question of what God's Gas smells like ...
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Some nits:
"Gee, and here thought I that God-made-flesh Jesus Himself"

That's a sect of Christianity, albeit a popular one. Not all Christians worship Jesus as God. Of course, those that do claim the others aren't really christian. :)

"Sorry. But I am Hell-bound anyhow."

Similarly to the above, Hell is specific to some sects of Christianity.

"And here I was thinking that the whole bible was God's Revealed Word."

Define "whole bible"? Are you including Q? Gospel of Judas? Are you using a specific sect's version?

"Not just the four Gospels ... and if these then are the only True Word of God, then would it not be nice if they actually agreed one with another?"

That's touching on the Synoptic problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_problem

Lifetimes of study have been burned up working on that very issue.

"This is the first time I have ever been accused of being a Christer."

Miracles abound. :)
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. "Hell is specific to some sects of Christianity."
Which ones do not accept Hell?

Truly. I ask as I do NOT know.

I thought that all did (well, except perhaps for the Cathars - but that Heresy was scrubbed from the earth in a sea of God Spilled Blood by the Albigensian Crusade long ago)

Possibly Unitarians (who are amongst several Christian sects which do not accept the Trinity)??


Crusaders of the Forth Crusade Sacking Constantinople (Then a Christian city)


This is a thoughtful post, and hope to return - as find actual study of the bible (as opposed to bible study, probably to the detriment of my soul) fascinating - but running out of time here today.

The short answer to the "whole Bible" MUST be clear to any RIGHT-THINKING person as it can ONLY be that version authorized by King James: since, he ruled by Divine Right, that which he authorized must then carry the imprinter of Divine Approval. Well yes, there is then the pesky problem of the version(s) by Christ's Vicars on Earth - but clearly any other versions than these can be consigned to the flames, least that is where they lead the souls of those who read them.

Though I confess that I find as much truth, and at times more gentleness, in the Apocrypha.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Hell is for children. (Just heard that song at a strip club last night, come to think of it).
I grew up Mormon, and as I grew out of that faith, I began looking into the whole constructs of Sheol and Hades (the latter being a greek influenced line of thought) and Jahannam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol is a good enough starting place, but a simple answer would be that non-binary (which, amusingly enough, often includes non-trinitarian*) segments of Christianity have (and had) a surprisingly diverse set of constructs which run parallel to a dualistic heaven/hell model. Even in the dualism model, there are wonderful kinds of variance, as well.

As far as the sacred divinity of King James, I remain in awe of the men who are worshiped as gods, by dint of their editorial abilities. Thus, I wield my sacred red pencil with holy spirit as I correct spelling and punctuation errors.

*Amusing side note: My firefox spell-check considers "trinitarian" to be an error, and suggests Unitarianism as the first replacement, and humanitarian as the second.
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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Sorry..I mistook the full 80% or more of your post being gay bashing Scripture quotes
To mean you were an intolerant christian....it did come off a little like that, and the giant picture with the same message didn't do much to make me want to read the rest. So I at the very least rescind my comment about you being absorbed in religion.

However, I do stand by the statement that Jesus was NOT intolerant of homosexuality, nor did he address it directly, and to me that supersedes anything else in the old testament or the words of the epistle writers (who were canonized by Rome, not by God). The intolerance of gay's that comes from modern Christians comes from within THEM, it does not come from the words or actions of Jesus.

All I'm saying is that not all Christians are gay hating bigots, nor does Christianity demand it (even if many CHRISTIANS do). Just because its in the bible doesn't mean it represents the whole of God's intentions (or honestly that it came from God, the bible is FILLED with human tradition masquerading as the word of God, the two are not the same).

Not everything in this world is black and white, and being a Christian does not require one to take the entire bible as 100% the way it is, too much of it contradicts itself and too much of it is filled with hate for that to be even plausible. The one message I quoted is the only message one needs. Follow that and your life will be fulfilled, don't follow it and life is a miserable, hate filled place that I can't imagine anyone wanting to experience. You don't even have to do it "'cause Jesus said so"....loving one another is a good idea no matter who the idea comes from.

Lastly, it was awful nice of you to go straight to the Nazi accusations, its was so predictable and juvenile. Gives me a warm feeling in my heart.

God bless you :)
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Nah...
"...I mistook the full 80% or more of your post being gay bashing Scripture quotes To mean you were an intolerant christian....it did come off a little like that..."

Bullshit. It did not "come off a little like that"... not even close. If you are going to launch an attack on a post, read it first. And if you manage to get it 100% wrong, you probably don't want to launch into yet another screed. Just let Emily Litella be your guide.

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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. funny
I dont recall responding to you :)
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. ...Nevermind...
R.I.P. Gilda, your work touches generations beyond your years.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. I have watched with interest the coming out of one of my nieces and two of my nephews.
This occurred in two rabidly Christian sibling's families: one family being born-again gay-hating evangelicals, the other gay-condemning Roman Catholics (I live in Texas).

The evangelical parents struggled with this more, having decades of overtly expressed hatred to overcome, plus being very fundamentalist as far as the bible being the whole, true, and complete revealed word of god - they are new-earth creationists for example.

The Catholic parents had a somewhat easier time, as they had never raved (as had my evangelical brother) against the godless gays. They "simply" gave up on their Church & became Episcopalians (Same Church, different Pope, but not so bigoted and hateful - used to be one myself). Of course, as I did refrain from pointing out to them, they were now hell-bound, for it is a dogma of the Holy Roman Catholic Church that "there is no salvation outside the church." To me, such beliefs simply point out that religion is a disease of the mind.

Interestingly, all of my nieces and nephews from those two families are atheists and liberals - except one who is an evangelical preacher (and who I think is closeted). This was none of my doing, as I scrupulously did not discuss religion with any of them - though politics was a different matter.

In the end, both families have been able to accept that their children simply have a different sexual orientation than that mandated by the word of god (no matter how you slice it, The Word is there in the Bible and is sacred to all of the Abrahamic Religions (Jewish, Christer, Muslim)) and were able to put their love of their children ahead of the hate-filled teachings of their religions. Sadly, I have seen other people choose their superstition over their child.

Tragically though, both of my siblings still wonder "where they went wrong." This is so sad. Still, since the partner of one of my nephews is quite militant, it has livened up family reunions. Just having them there, obviously in love, is a powerful force to make my relatives confront their irrational acceptance of "The Word of God"

Faith: No Reason.

On another note: NAZI. Juvenile?

I am terribly sorry, but the Wehrmacht did, in fact, stomp all over Europe with "God is With Us" emblazoned on their belt buckles, enjoying the full support of all German mainstream churches (principally Lutheran and Roman Catholic). That Hitler was a Christian (Roman Catholic) who wrote that he was here to fulfill God's plan for the Jews. That the only Catholic NAZI party official excommunicated by the Pope was excommunicated for getting divorced and marrying a Protestant, that the Pope continued to accept tithings and other donations to his Holy Church from NAZI Germany - even when it was clear that much of this money had been taken from murdered Jews.

Sorry too that Mussolini (also Roman Catholic) executed the Lateran Treaty establishing The Vatican as a State, and Roman Catholicism as the State religion of Italy. Fascism and religion were closely intertwined in both Germany and Italy. This is a fact of history.

I make no apology, nor can I consider it puerile, for recognizing that many of the most terrible of wars, and horrible of crimes have been committed in the name of religion as a whole, the religions of Abraham as a group, and in that of Christianity in particular.

The rivers of blood shed in the name of the "Prince of Peace" shames us all.



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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. again with the Nazi...
I am not a nazi...and honestly there are lots of evil people who claim christianity. Both you and PF are more than a little out of line for using that in the context of this discussion, directed at me, when I was merely trying to point out that just because people use the bible to foster their own bigotry it DOES NOT mean that it is the intent or will of God.

SO thank you as well for resorting to veiled acusations that just because Hitler was a christian all christians are Nazis. I stand by what I said, juvenile and predictable.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. By the book (so to speak):
1) Jude says nothing specific about homosexuality, the modern Sodomy (as in "Sodom") laws were retroactively coined as homosexual laws. If you read about the sins of Sodom in context, raping guest angels was the issue.

2) Levitical code was about priestly behavior, and actions in the temple by the priests. This is about abusing authority for sexual gain.

3) Levitical code, again.

4) Corinthiains, (from Pauline worship) is, indeed, harsh, but that's from a branch of the church that worships Paul, and Jesus, as Gods... and depending on translation has some variance in meaning:
-"have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,"
-"Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,"
-"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

5)Timothy: again, Pauline, and again, translation variance.
Here's NIV:
"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurersand for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"
YLT:
"having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers,
whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse, "

6) Romans is more of the same, here's a YLT:
"Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving. "

You call it "true understanding", I call it "shallow interpretation", which is unfortunately enhanced by the Catholic Church's insistence reliance on Pauline scripture to the exemption of other books, and 2000 years of re-interpretation of words to match current cultural contexts.

As far as your claim for "burning", that's yet *another* reading, another set of assumptions, put forth by alternate readings and interpretations.

And finally:
"Actually, I cannot understand anyone choosing to believe in any of these savage superstitions which cast their looming dark shadows of hatred and intolerance from the distant past into the present, indeed, on into the future."

Hatred can be read into any any media of sufficient complexity. That says something about those who read hatred into Catcher in the Rye, the Bible, and Beatles albums.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Excellent!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions
Because there are so few gays in the Catholic clergy? Is he serious?

(NO, I don't mean the pedophile priests. That's an entirely different issue, much as the Church claims that most of their pedophile priest are not pedophiles, but gay.)
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Actually, at that level it is the gay=pedophille misconception
That is the underlining message of anyone doing the fast climb towards Rome. It goes back to the creeping infallibility of the Church. The 'perfect society' theology defines the Church has never doing anything wrong in the past and never will do anything wrong in the future. :crazy:

So they see child abusers as an outside force (gays) that came in to defile the perfect institution. That leap of logic is as disgusting as I have ever heard but it is what is ingrained in the institutional levels. Actual faith levels are so small that any criticism or blemish makes their entire world collapse around them.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. As far as I'm concerned he can go fuck himself.
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LuvNewcastle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. +1
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. K&R
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Hey, pope nazi, GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Pix: Pope breathing smoke of burning Heretics and other Damned?


So good to be God's Main Guy on earth, helping to spread the Love as in Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

Oh, and don't forget that you will burn in Hell forever as further expression of God's Holy Love.

Praise the Lord for His Wisdom and Kindness!
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. They RCC crew is unrecing this
Because they have a hard time admitting that they are members of a political organization that fights against human rights. They contribute to that political organization, and they commit a heresy for they call that PAC 'the church' and give power of the divine, of their own worship, to a thing that is apostate and about as spiritual as the GOP.
I see Rasty in his silk dress and skull cap, his Parda shoes and jewelery and I think of Haiti, and how 2/3 of those in Haiti kiss the ring of this man on command, and how he sits in Rome, slandering gay people and meddling in UK politics while they suffer. For the price of a canvass, he could save thousands, for his ring, tens of thousands. But Ratsy sez the ring looks good right where it is, on the finger that points at others.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I wish I could rec your post (n/t)
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Yep, in a nutshell.
n/t
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. I can't find anything
in the Gospels (the word of Christ) where being gay is talked about. Therefore if Christ didn't address it, why should I worry about it? This is another example of why the Catholic Church is so out of touch with the real world..........
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Christ IS reported to have said
Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Many hold that "All" is not fulfilled until Judgment Day.

Thus, clearly, the previous rules and laws still apply: save only those explicitly set aside by The Savior - which, as you point out, He does not explicitly do for the previously, repeatedly, condemned sin of MSM.

Others argue that "All" was fulfilled when God was made flesh in Christ and suffered for YOUR sins (I will suffer for mine own).

Hence it would seem to be that it is now "shrimps on the barbi, cloth of more than one thread, and MSM can flourish" time without being sinful.

Yet, if all IS fulfilled, why are we still waiting for His return?

And, if "All" be fulfilled, then why would any Christer ever quote from the Bible (which they condescendingly call "The Old Testament") since it has been superseded?

Verily, there is Mystery here.

Finally, one could simply say that this is all superstition, and so should not be used to persecute people today.

I kind of favor the last.

Absolom, it's OK - go for the BLT already. God.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Fucking little kids violates natural laws, Benny, but you don't seem as upset about that. And
Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 10:48 AM by salguine
now you're outraged because a just law might thwart your bigotry? That's like Bull Connor being outraged that black people can have a sandwich in a restaurant. Fuck Bull Connor and you know what? Fuck the Pope.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Natural law?
Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 11:18 AM by progressoid
WTF? :crazy:
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. As revealed in God's Book(s)
Though I do not think that Papa would reference God's last bestseller: The Koran. Doubtless he thinks it does not have the same gripping sense of Truth and Reality of the first two in the series.

Such as the sun standing still as described in God's first book (still in print)

(Jos 10:12-13) Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, "O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

Or, in His second Book, where God's Kid curses a fig tree for not growing figs out of season

(Mat 21:18-19)"Now in the morning as he (JC) returned into the city, he hungered.
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

But, according to Mark's Gospel Truth (M-2:11:13) God's only begotten Boy should not have been surprised as "...when he (JC) came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet."

But many, in spite of the Pope, think that God did save the best for his third, and last, Book (well, if you leave aside the Book of Mormon, which some hold to be His latest) as we can see in this shot of Muhammad ascending to Heaven on his flying horse Buraq (a horse with wings, a womans face, and a peacocks tail). Is that not cool or what?

Now, I am not well enough acquainted with the Koran to be able to cite the source, so it might not be as amazing as reported - so perhaps the Pope is right in rejecting this last of God's Books.

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. Natural Law is actually an old Greek concept
Basically, if it's done in nature, it's good, or something like that.

OK, somebody better tell that to the gay penguins.

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/orient.html
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Natural law is a bunch of horsecrap invented by the RCC to give justification
to their nonsense.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. i wonder what catholics plan on doing about their extremely vile & homophobic pope?
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Beer Snob-50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. there is really nothing you can do about it
he is there til the day he dies technically. contrary to popular belief, i think most catholics (of which i am one) don't believe everything that comes out of rome. we tend to follow that one pesky commandment that jesus gave, love one another as i have loved you.

if you actually look at the life of paul (according to tradition) he was a murderer of christians and then converted.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. ofcourse there are things you can do about it.
a. leave the church & find a religion that doesnt discriminate

b. organize a protest of the pope in a visible way

c. ally with LGBT catholics and do a letter campaign/protest

d. have a petition to stop donating/givin tithe till the church accepts gay people

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Beer Snob-50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. i stand corrrected
those are all excellent ideas.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. thank you.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. Yep. I wish intelligent, compassionate people would stop supporting/propping up this fuckedup church
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. they will keep their mouths shut, eyes blind, and their will...hahaha
they will follow... they have no will of their own.

Those who do, will stand up. It's a moment of truth.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. ..Yeah, like the UK gives a flying fuck what that git has to say?
..he should stick to what comes naturally to him...covering-up child abuse...
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. He should know, because celibacy is so natural.
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demigoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. once a bigot, always a bigot.
eom
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. How tragic that Catholics have Ratzinger as their pope.
.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. LOL!!! The pedophile organization wants to ban gays???? absurd.
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Strathos Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. Uh
Fuck the Pope!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
58. egocentric weirdo
always wanting to maintain inequality and continuously opposing freedom of thought.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. He is a nazi!
He also headed the same Vatican office that once was known as the Inquisition.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-03-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I guess Nazi Behavior is ok for people now
afterall, it;s freedom of expression to preach hate towards groups he doesn't want to have the same rights as others do. Using "rights" as a way to take away "rights". Not clever... it's been done before and it ends badly, but crazy people don't think rationally, just emotionally, unless they are sociopaths.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-03-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
63. Government backs down in face of Pope, Church of England and Lords' vote
Harriet Harman backs down over employment equality for churches

Harriet Harman has backed away from a confrontation with religious leaders over who they can employ, making clear that she will not force contentious amendments to the Equality Bill through Parliament.

Ministers were astonished on Monday when the Pope said that the Bill violated “natural justice” and urged bishops to fight it. But that attack, along with the strength of opposition in the Lords and the limited time left to get Bills passed before the election, has sapped the Government’s enthusiasm to continue the fight.

Ms Harman, the Equalities Minister, has been engaged in a long dispute with churches and religious organisations over their exemption from anti-discrimination employment law, and how it affects “non-religious” posts.

The dispute led to a government defeat on a key amendment to the Bill last week in the Lords, but it was expected that Ms Harman would reintroduce the measure, or one similar.
...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7012842.ece


A vote last week in the Lords saw all 7 bishops who voted, including the number 2 in the Church of England (the Archbishop of York) go against the amendment: http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2010-01-25&number=2&house=lords&display=allvotes

The Archbishop of York, the Most Reverend John Sentamu, told peers: "You may feel that many churches and other religious organisations are wrong on matters of sexual ethics.

"But, if religious freedom means anything it must mean that those are matters for the churches and other religious organisations to determine for themselves in accordance with their own convictions."

He added: "Where are the examples of actual abuses that have caused difficulties? Where are the court rulings that have shown that the law is defective? If it ain't broke, why fix it?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8479761.stm


So it's not just the Catholics blocking human rights here - the Church of England was doing it too (and the Conservatives, of course).
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