Extremist Islamist groups to be banned under new (British) terror laws

[Turborama]

Source: The Guardian

The Islamist group Islam4UK, which planned a march through Wootton Bassett, and its "parent" organisation, al-Muhajiroun, are to be banned under new legislation outlawing the "glorification" of terrorism.

The home secretary, Alan Johnson, is expected to sign off a parliamentary order later this week proposing the ban, based on months of monitoring the output of websites and comments by senior figures.

The decision to proscribe the two organisations, which will have to be endorsed by parliament, will make it a criminal offence punishable by a prison term of up to 10 years to be a member of either organisation, or to attend or address their meetings. Al-Muhajiroun was founded by Omar Bakri Muhammad and Anjem Choudary, and has been operating in Britain since the mid-1980s.

The group became notorious for praising the September 11 attacks in 2001. Bakri was banned from Britain by the former home secretary Charles Clarke in August 2005, on the grounds that his presence in the country was "not conducive to the public good".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/11/islam4uk-al-muhajiroun-ban-laws

[VanW]

1. Thought crime.

Double plus ungood.

[17breezes]

9. Were it confined to "thought" you

might have a point.

[VanW]

13. You're right, it's much worse

They actually made sounds with their mouths. In public, even. Horrid.

[marshall]

29. It kept Michael Savage out of the UK

Glad to see it evenly spread.

[mamaleah]

31. Many many people, even on the left support punishment for thought crime.

It just depends on who is committing said thought crime.

It should be a "good for the goose good for the gander" situation, but it isn't.

[panzerfaust]

2. Shows only weakness, fear, and intolerance

...and our future.

[panzerfaust]

3. and is Futile

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/12/islam4uk-banned-alan-johnson-islamist
The group said that if their organisation and al-Muhajiroun were banned, "another platform with a new name will arise to continue to fulfil these divine objections until the sharia has been implemented"

And there is no reason to doubt that the Will of Allah can be thwarted by Parliament.

Ah, religion, in all its majesty and glory.

[totodeinhere]

4. "to fulfil these divine objections until the sharia has been implemented"

That statement alone shows that these people are nut cases. God for the UK for banning these hatemongers.

[Turborama]

5. Counter-terrorism legislation passed in 2006 is designed to automatically ban any "successor"

Counter-terrorism legislation passed in 2006 is designed to automatically ban any "successor" organisations set up by proscribed groups.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/11/islam4uk-al-muhajiroun-ban-laws

[T_i_B]

8. But they haven't been banned "automatically"

They have only been banned once they tried to hold a ridiculous publicity stunt in Wooton Bassett.

And that ban on Islam4UK itself has the whiff of a publicity stunt about it.

[Turborama]

10. Which organisation is Islam4UK a "successor" of?

An honest question because I hadn't heard of them until recently. The ban seems to be a last ditch attempt at stopping them from holding their provocative publicity stunt.

BTW Just been watching a couple of hours of Campbell weaselling his way through the inquiry. I'd forgotten how much of a slime ball he is!

[T_i_B]

11. Al-Muhajiroun

[Turborama]

14. Sorry, I meant which banned organisation is Islam4UK a "successor" of?

I was just about to edit to clarify but was too late.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. "al-Ghurabaa and The Saved Sect"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453560.stm

Not an attempt from stopping their march; they had already said on Sunday they weren't going to do it after all: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8451014.stm

But it's possible that it is a reaction to Islam5Uk getting that publicity.

[Turborama]

16. I don't get it. How long have Islam4UK been around?

If Islam4UK is a successor of "al-Ghurabaa and The Saved Sect" (a proscribed group), aren't they already "automatically" banned pursuant of the 2006 counter-terrorism legislation?

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. Presumably, they are now declaring Islam4UK to be a successor

(or 'the same group', under a different name - it's not necessarily saying that Islam4UK never existed before the other 2 were disbanded). I don't think Islam4UK itself openly proclaims "we are a successor of al-Ghurabaa" or of The Saved Sect.

[JCMach1]

6. Know what would happen to groups like this in any ME country...

Pakistan? Egypt? KSA?

Under the jail anyone? Torture? Disappearance?

I can't believe there are people here defending their right to spread hatred in the UK or anywhere.

[Salmonslayer]

7. Saudi Arabia is the center for Islam, so, why don't

we follow their example of how they treat other religions and treat Islam the same in western countries?

disclaimer..I am not supporting treating anyone differently, but,there is a double standard her that needs to be addressed.

Just pointing to the elephant in the room

[JCMach1]

15. I don't take issue with the religion... just hatred...

I have met Wahabbis who love peace as much as any Iraq war protester.

It is the hatred and the threat of violence that we need to be vigilant about. There is indeed a free speech line that can and is crossed by such people (meaning terrorists and their supporters).

It is the modern equivalent of a cross burning on your lawn and governments need to put a stop to it.

[The Stranger]

18. I think only the Vatican could do that (and may have done it).

Assuming that it is the "center" for Christianity. Hopefully, Western nations aren't the "center" for Christianity (or any religion, for that matter.)

[The Stranger]

19. No one here is "defending their right to spread hatred." They're defending YOUR right to speak and

freely associate.

Wake up.

[JCMach1]

22. So, I can broadcast propaganda about what ever violent act I like?

The KKK in the U.S. ran many southern states in the teens and twenties of the last century. Much of that BS carried on well into the latter part of the 20th century. It was only concentrated action by the authorities and others that shifted them out of the mainstream.

Within many communities of Muslim believers around the world, hatred is still mainstream. They have not been marginalized. One of the reasons is they have been able to spew hatred with impunity in many places (including western democracies).

Do you agree with the anti-NAZI laws in Germany?
What about various hate crimes legislation?

Sure, legislation like this will shift folks underground. And you know what? That's fine. That's a first step in pushing their ideology out of the mainstream.


Free association for purposes of hatred and inciting violence is destructive of democracy.

No way I will take a libertarian or anarchist position on this!

[The Stranger]

25. That's a good straw man and could make for a good discussion, I suppose.

But you have twice conflated "hatred" and "inciting violence," and that is where the First Amendment jurisprudence draws a line.

Sure, you can spew whatever propaganda you like. If it is nonsense, people will figure it out and you'll look like a buffoon. But the government will not interdict in that process (or prevent you from looking like a buffoon).

If you are to incite violence, then your actions may be proscribed. But that is where your advocacy of your crazy propaganda, whatever it may be, leaves the realm of speech and moves into the realm of a violent criminal act.

[JCMach1]

28. Ummm... this is what the groups we are discussing are actively involved in

inciting hatred and incitement to violence...

[mamaleah]

30. It's only ok for some groups.

Geez....you should know this. If it's a group spreading hate or inciting violence against the west it's a-ok. Bonus points if it's against the US.

[JCMach1]

32. Absolutely right... even most of the Arab states won't allow this...

They try rather hard to keep this 'at least' out of the mainstream. The most virulent sermons are no longer coming from Riyadh, Dubai, or Cairo... they are coming from London, Bradford, Detroit, Amsterdam, New York...

I am an American living in the Middle East. I see with my own eyes what is happening.

For example one of my best friends is from Pakistan. He is not a radical. He is definitely a left, liberal Muslim... At he same time when I meet him, or talk with other Pakistanis it is easy to see that the 'ideas' of the Radical jihadis have entered the mainstream. This stream of propaganda is largely streaming from the West these days via the internet. My friend rejects violence, but he can virtually quote chapter and verse about what they are saying. By any stretch, he isn't alone.

In the same was the KKK and their ideas were marginalized over time in the US, governments will have to approach this problem.

And yes that may mean things like jail time, deportation, outlawing certain groups and activities... Note, I don't mean 'whatever' it takes. It absolutely don't take a right wing approach to this either. Great care must be take with the labels thrown around. For example, I know very peaceful Wahabbis who would toss a violent jihadi out of their house at the first opportunity as an idiot and a violent asshat.

Western Democracies need to understand the threat not lose their freaking minds.

One thing that I am never shocked by is how little the so-called Middle East experts know about the region. I think I learned more my first year here than a good 99% of those yahoos.

[leveymg]

17. This is what happens when a country doesn't have a Bill of Rights . . . to ignore

Not like we didn't do the same thing in the 1950s with members of the Communist Party.

[Sultana]

21. Bravo, UK

[Salmonslayer]

23. the problem is that mainstream Islam when given control

would like nothing more than to control your thoughts and suppress your right to practice religion. Name a Islamic nation where the people have more rights than a western nation. Saudi Arabia is the center for Islam. I would argue Saudi Arabia reflects the mainstream Islamic mindset, because Islam is allowed to take it natural course in Saudi Arabia. When Islam is free to practice their beliefs, women can not walk alone without their husbands or a relative. Women can not drive. Other religions are tolerated at best, but, not respected. Muslims should count their lucky stars that they are not treated in western nations as non-Muslims are treated in Islamic nations.

I am not suggesting the we (western Nations)should treat Muslims like Islamic nations treat non-Muslims. That would be stooping to their level. We are better than that. However, I am not willing to listen to these people spew their hate. I do not think for a minute they are just expressing their feelings. They are expressing their intent if given the power. These are people who do not have good intentions toward western culture. These are not the peace loving Muslims that most of us have met. The Muslims that appreciate the opportunity to raise their children in freedom that does not exist in the countries controlled .

[applegrove]

24. I'm glad. I saw footage of some British Iman claiming that the muslims should

take over power in Britain and rule. He was completely serious and could hold a demonstration to that effect right out there in the London streets. I was disgusted.

[Turborama]

26. Is this the video you're talking about?

British Muslims want to take over the UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mlxMndnlzw

[applegrove]

33. It wasn't that video but I think it was the same people. I'm not good with faces though.

[Turborama]

27. BBC's Newsnight gives some context (Video)

Part 1 which gives some background: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKb6FKRdYY

Part 2 Jeremy Paxman interviews Al-Muhajiroun's Anjem Choudary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4u5o8gz55M


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