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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:12 PM
Original message
Source: WhoRunsGov.com

In a blow to the (health care reform) bill grinding through the Senate, Howard Dean bluntly called for the bill to be killed in a pre-recorded interview set to air later this afternoon, denouncing it as the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate, the reporter who conducted the interview tells me.

Dean said the removal of the Medicare buy-in made the bill not worth supporting, and urged Dem leaders to start over with the process of reconciliation in the interview, which is set to air at 5:50 PM today on Vermont Public Radio, political reporter Bob Kinzel confirms to me.

The gauntlet from Dean whose voice on health care is well respsected among liberals will energize those on the left who are mobilizing against the bill, and make it tougher for liberals to embrace the emerging proposal. In an excerpt Kinzel gave me, Dean says:

This is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate. Honestly the best thing to do right now is kill the Senate bill, go back to the House, start the reconciliation process, where you only need 51 votes and it would be a much simpler bill.

Read more: http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/howard-de... /



Dr. Dean is right yet again.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. +100
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. Now that is Leadership
Howard you are the man. I agree with you 1000 percent. We gave up way too much way to fast. Start with reconciliation and we will have the right kind of Healthcare reform the first time.

Love Ya,
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
71. I'd forgotten what leadership looked like.
I could get used to this.
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #71
174. Hooray for Dean
I liked Dean more as DNC Chair then as a candidate, although even as a candidate I admired his resolve and boldness in stating what he stood for.

I am in complete agreement - this bill does not have to be passed no matter what is in it.

This is not a universal healthcare bill, and what they're suggesting now removes both a public option and Medicare-55-buy-in. Which just makes a bill that everyone is unhappy with - conservatives and Republicans don't like it, many independents won't like it, and I and many here won't like it.

If Lieberman wants to be the guy who killed healthcare so be it. We'll try again. This bill does not have to pass if there is nothing in it. It's already been whittled down to next to nothing.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #174
179. agree with Dean. It's not worth passing
but, the Problem is US democracy. No matter what is proposed and what the people want. Those lobbyists who control COngress will continue to control Congress and to get health care will take a revolution with people in the streets . And will that happen.. Until Health care proponents get as loud as the Civil Rights movement was- nothing will get done..
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #179
180. Civil rights act
It's interesting how LBJ helped craft the Civil Rights Act. He was an expert on congressional legislation. The Act really didn't force segregated states to do that much. What it did do is withheld billions of dollars in federal money if they did not comply. So they could do what they wanted, and get almost no federal money, or could comply, and would get lots of federal money. All opted for the latter.
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. I heart Dr. Dean
Leadership we can believe in.

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #77
110. You bet.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #77
130. Dr. Dean rules
Decisive leadership, what a nice idea.

K&R :kick:
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Sparky 1 Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #77
201. Agreed. I wanted him for Prez.
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #201
206. me 2!
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
86. Exactly,
HR676 is the gold standard. We have a MAJORITY in congress. It is time to use it , like the rethugs did.If President Obama and Rahm (yech) are not completely owned by the HC lobby, they can prove it by going to Congress and twisting arms to get this real reform implemented, and "phased in" within a year. They should also, like Obama promised, take the lobbyists money out of politics by reforming the election laws. Publicly financed elections would save us a lot of money. The politicians would not be spending our money constantly to benefit their corporate contributors, instead they would realize that the public is who they have to please. I agree, scrap this so-called reform bill and start over from the position of power that they have. The public would support HR676 by a vast majority and America would save a lot of money on quality HC for all.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #86
203. I love me some HR676, but I like the gambit of turning it over to the states
If the Red states are truly worried about a no-choice government-style "socialist" health care system, they can stick with their Big Insurance "free-market" Corleone-style extortion system instead. Let 'em make their bed and lie in it. And let the rest of us join the civilized world.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #86
276. Ram Umaul is a shill for Big Corporate Interests
He has sold his sole (sic) to the highest bidder.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
97. bet there is a special place in Hell for Joe
as the right liked to say about Tiller.


Thought the Senate was really getting somewhere with the expansion of medicare. Once thats dead.. we'll it's a pointless bill. What the fuck is wrong with the Senate? it saves money. Do they give a shit.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
239. Dean: "Joe loves the attention."
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
115. Exactly nt
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Farzan Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
168. He is correct...
Just the farcical fact the Joe is allowing us to have this Bill passed is reason enough to do what Howard says.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
214. What if they Removed the Mandate?
If they removed the mandate, without a public option and without single payer, then we have a handful of reforms that can't be put through with reconciliation. Remove the mandate and pass it. Then put through Medicare for all with reconciliation. There are a few good things that Lieberman didn't strip out. Remove the mandate and pass it.

The mandate is recipe for disaster without a public option. It would force people to buy from crappy corporations and tie the Democratic party to every health insurance CEO raise and bonus. When a corporation demands a price increase or fails to pay for needed services, voters will blame the Democrats. Every time someone gets an increase in premiums, they will blame all the Democratic leaders because they were forced to buy something that is a total waste of money.

REMOVE the MANDATE, pass the thing, then do reconciliation for Medicare for all.

Later, if the common person is abusing their poor little insurance corporation by waiting to get health insurance until they are sick, then put in a mandate... maybe. Maybe put in a trigger for a mandate. Without the mandate this bill is Better than Nothing. With the mandate it is worse than nothing.
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alcina Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #214
256. Again, I have to agree: Remove the Mandate
Honestly, fasttense, I'm not stalking you. ;-) I just woke this morning with the intention of writing about this, and then I saw your posts. Wonderful! Someone else is actually thinking about this.

But for the past few days I've been wondering how democratic and reasonable people would think this bill was if it were applied to an industry other than insurance. Why doesn't the government mandate that every citizen must buy a car? One could make a reasonable argument about how that would improve the economy, facilitate job searches, and so on. But it's such a ludicrous proposal no one would ever dare suggest it. Yet, with insurance they think it's somehow different. Sure, I'd love see every citizen insured (I'm from Canada -- it was great having insurance), but not at this cost.

I know many people whose income would suggest they can afford healthcare, but in reality, they have no "extra" money for such a luxury. Mandating the purchase is not going to change their budgets. The money just isn't there. And even if it was, what kind of crap would they be forced to buy? With no threat of losing customers, insurance companies have no incentive to improve their product.

Aargh. Each day I'm more convinced that President Obama and the supporters of this senate bill are more interested in ensuring the profitability of the insurance industry than they are of caring for the citizens of this country.

I have to go punch something now....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #46
215. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Vermontgrown Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #46
229. Reconciliation
Would be way worthless and transparent. The right , even with out a majority, has trashed yet another bill that would be good for working class Americans. That tells me that the American working class has only one alternative left really, shut Washington down.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #46
231. I feel like I am a damn pathetic fool.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:43 AM by olegramps
I have stayed with Obama through his disappointing appointments of some of the very people who brought on the nation's economic collapse. I stayed true blue when I saw, what has been a ridiculous attempt, to be bipartisan. I stayed when he delayed rescending the tax breaks for the very people who have ripped us off. I even held on when he escalated the Afghan fiasco. I probably forgot a few. Just blame it on my creeping senality.

However, this is the end for me. I won't give the Democrats and especially Obama another dime. Obama is just another empty suit that makes pretty speeches. I feel like I was nothing more than the town yokel who was taken for a ride and bought a pig in the poke. What a jerk I was going door to door passing out what has proven to be worthless promises. Yes, WE CAN sounds more and more asinine with every passing day. I am pass the point of being pissed off. I am throughly disgusted and I don't give a damn what they do. When I see him on the tube I am just going to change the channel. I have heard enough bull crap.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #231
247. I know the feeling too!!! I'm really getting disillusioned with all of the We CAN BS. Too
bad some of those calling themselves democrats in congress really aren't. Collectively, I think the democrats are making a mess of it all for being the majority. I think 2010 and 2012 are going to be pretty rough on the dem. party. It will be a shame.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #247
286. Obama is disappointing & the phrase, "Change I'm losing faith in" rolls around in my brain
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #231
259. I am already at that point.
When I see him on the tube I am just going to change the channel.

That's what I do and have done for a while now.

And I never thought I'd get to that point, with a Democratic President.

Oh well. :shrug:
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #231
285. me, too - drug reimportation vote another reason why- read this article
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 09:21 AM by wordpix
You need to read the whole article to understand the FDA letter referral.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20 ...

President Obama writes a new health reform prescription

By Dana Milbank
Wednesday, December 16, 2009

On the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to take on the drug industry by allowing Americans to import cheaper prescription medicine. "We'll tell the pharmaceutical companies 'thanks, but no, thanks' for the overpriced drugs -- drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada," he said back then.

On Tuesday, the matter came to the Senate floor -- and President Obama forgot the "no, thanks" part. Siding with the pharmaceutical lobby, the administration successfully fought against the very idea Obama had championed.

"It's got to be a little awkward," said Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.).

It's even more awkward for millions of Americans who are forced to pay up to 10 times the prices Canadians and Europeans pay for identical medication, often produced in the same facilities by the same manufacturers, simply because the U.S. government refuses to rein in drug prices. snip

One after the other, the drug industry's friends from pharmaceutical-manufacturing states New Jersey, Delaware and North Carolina went to the floor Tuesday to cite the FDA letter.

Sen. Robert Menendez (D-Bristol-Myers Squibb) warned that "you may have a heart attack" because of counterfeit medicine from abroad.

"This is a matter of life or death," agreed Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-Merck).

Carper (D-AstraZeneca) cited "remaining safety and soundness and health concerns," while Sen. Kay Hagan (D-GlaxoSmithKline) voiced "serious doubts that we can adequately ensure the safety of the drug supply."

These arguments don't hold up well, considering that 40 percent of the active ingredients in American prescription drugs come from India and China, and that the latter slipped tainted heparin past the FDA. But fright was about the best argument opponents could use to defeat a popular proposal that would save the federal government $19 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Consumers would save many times that. snip
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #46
240. Obama needs an emergency meeting TODAY with Dean
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
207. +1,000
If I ever needed a reason to move back to Canada, this crappy bill is it. No reform at all would be better than the shit Reid is trying to shove down our throats without "being able" (read: being willing) to tell us about it.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. yup. more harm than good.
fuck it fully.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dr. Dean seems to change his opinion every time the wind blows form Washington.
Of course, he has health care and personal wealth, so it is no skin of his nose if 50 million plus get to continue with nothing, and many with health insurance go bankrupt due to catastrophic illness.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Why do I have the feeling you just woke up from a very long nap? nt
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Nice
snark
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
91. +1. nt
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. blah blah blah, personal attack, blah blah blah
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Howard Dean has changed very little
on this issue since his campaign in 2004. In March of this year, he began a very active public and outspoken campaign supporting the public option. If Dean is saying this now, it is because there are no restrictions on health insurance corporations and no choices for health care coverage for all of us.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
141. He always said that without a Public Option, it would be just a giveway to the Insurance Companies.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #141
164. That nails it ... and happily Howard Dean has the courage to say it ---
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. You clearly know jackshit, honey, about Dean
And the crap about how it's no skin off his nose, is just a stinking pile of dogshit. I have insurance because of Howard- through the state of VT. Furthermore, he sure doesn't go by how the wind blows. I know. I live in VT.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. where have you been?
nothing like proving the old saying, "better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

your completely misinformed opinion of Dr. Dean is ludicrous.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. That is because Washington is keeps changing the target. This bill will not save people from
bankrupcy

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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Meh, still peddling this same old shit?
Your 'writing' is nothing NEAR eclectic, you keep telling yourself it is.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. Did you even notice the changes in the health care bill Dean refers to each time?
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. Foolish
Do you really believe what you wrote. Have you cared to even look at the current legislation?

Mandates to purchase from the current insurance industries. Mandates under penatly of law.

The current insurance fat cats have already told you they will have to increase your costs because they are being told they have to take people with pre-existing conditions.

So when its all said and done the only thing our paychecks will buy is Gasoline and Health Insurance.

Is that the country you want to live in?
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
58. You have got to be joking.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
60. You've totally missed the point
He's a rich person who gave up a lucrative career as a stockbroker to become a small town doctor.

When the bill was good, he was for it.
When the bill was less than good, he said, "This could still work."
Now that the bill is useless, he's against it.

That shouldn't be too difficult to understand.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
129. That's exactly right. He gave this one a chance, not just a knee jerk. He has decided it's bad
because it IS bad.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
63. "I don't care if it's not a good Bill. I just want to feel good and support the Football Team and
feel like I've won something, so I'm going to believe what I am told, and shout down anyone who tries to say anything against it."

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
98. Nailed it. nt
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #63
226. That's all this is now..
... a "win" for Obama. Regardless of whether or not the legislation actually provides more people with health care.

Obama doesn't deserve a "win". If indeed he actually really ever wanted real reform with a public option (because there IS NO REAL REFORM without a public option) he could have made it happen. If he couldn't make it happen with solid majorities in both houses, he is no leader at all.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
260. Sad, isn't it? Pathetic, really.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. "If there is no Public Option", there is NO reform."..Howard Dean
Dean has taken a "LEADERSHIP" role on Health Care Reform even though he was banished by the DLC "Centrist" Democrats after he won the election for Obama.

Are you watching, Obama?
What Dean is doing is called "LEADERSHIP".
You should try it sometime!
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yava Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
111. Obama's cheerleadership
I agree.
"The Yes We Can" team is now too compromised. They need to take a stand on some issue!
They can choose which one but they didn't on Afghanistan, on bank/Wall street bailouts, on health care, arab-israel peace etc.
And I am not sure if they tried to save the polar bear and Guantanamo is still open.
Stem cells: one of the only reversed stands.
So, yes, stand up to make them recognize your contribution to putting them in the WH.
Right on, Move ON!
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #111
192. LOL "And I am not sure if they tried to save the polar bear"
Great post. Welcome to DU.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. Ozymanithrax, you are incredibly misinformed
Words just about fail me. Have you been in hibernation for the past several years?

Howard Dean is one of the few honest Democratic politicians.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. maybe not misinformed, just incredibly hypnotized by Cult Of Personality Politics
Masquerading as Leadership.

Pretty Rhetoric that makes you feel good means NOTHING if there is not solid action behind it.

We are finding out how cheap words really are.

And how costly our blind belief in them is.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
90. If the bill passes, 50 million will be fined or forced to buy crapsurance that guarantees NOTHING!
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
102. Oxymanithrax, you do not understand the process.
We have a majority in Congress, both in the House and in the Senate. That's all we need on reconciliation.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
105. You know absolutely nothing - Go back to watching Fox news!!
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #105
106.  As hard as it is to say, put my heart & soul for public option Howard Dean is correct 100%
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
261. Heh.
:spray: :evilgrin:
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
156. Sorry.......
but that's one of the most incorrect opinions I've ever read on DU. I have absolutely no idea what information you base your opinion on, but of course opinions are like assholes........
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
163. Only as the wing blowing in from Washington changes . . . !!!
And how often has that been?

Reform . . . no deform --

Medicare for all -- single payer -- public option --

Universal health care --

This bill is simply a gold mine for the insurance companies and will permanently

put corporations in control of health care --

Essentially, in letting Baucus head up health care talks, the White House put

the "for profit" health care industry in charge of it --

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
218. Baloney. He's been very consistent. It's the cluster fuck in Washington
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 07:19 AM by No Elephants
that changes its mind every five minutes.

Dean supports single payer, and, failing that, a MEANINGFUL public option. He even said lowering the Medicare age to 55 would be a good step. In other words, he has very consistently supported whatever may be good for patients and very consistently opposed things that will hurt patients and do little else.

If he supported a bill--ANY bill, no matter how bad it was, he'd been the same kind of idiot the rest of them are.
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tazkcmo Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
228. I don't have either
health care or personal wealth and still agree with Dr. Dean. What will the 50 million plus get? Crappy insurance? I can get that now for 200 bucks a month, which is about 25 percent of my income.
You amaze me. You contradict yourself in one breath. "...and many with health insurance go bankrupt due to catastrophic illness." So mandate crappy insurance so 50 million more can go bankrupt while having insurance????? I can't wait! "I'm broke, homeless and starving, but at least I have a job that pays me less than it did 20 years ago and insurance I can't use because I can't afford the co-pays and $10k deductible. Woohoo! Yes we can!"
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank God.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you, Dr. Dean
:applause:
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, nothing but a mandate to buy uncontrolled price
insurance or face fines. A trillion dollar love note to the insurance lobby.

Kill it. Kill it now.
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
184. I can hardly wait to see what percentage of my income...
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 01:12 AM by WorseBeforeBetter
this mandated health insurance with no cost controls will be.

Yes, kill it. Kill it now.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. What a disaster. We need to elect new people who actually support us and can get a real health care
bill. All our guys did was screw us and passing it just screw us worse.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. I hope that happens.
We need real reform. Not a big boost for bloated corporations.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dean and Kucinich are both right.....kill that bill...it sucks.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sounds good to me nt
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Agreed - the American people have suffered enough as it is
Kill the Senate bill, start the reconciliation process, nail down the 51 votes, and go tell Joe Lieberman what he can do with himself.

:patriot:
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
89. Lieberman
is proof positive that money elects politicians, not people.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #89
178. The Democrats wisely rejected him
If only Bill Clinton had supported the Democrat
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #178
221. Why single out Bubba? Which nationally prominent Democrats campaigned for Lamont?
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you, Dr. Dean
Nice to hear from someone willing to take a stand for a change.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
16. At this point, I sadly concur. n/t
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I Do Too
And I would have thought that almost any health reform was better than no health reform, but this petty much is no reform and if passed will be called "health reform" and everybody can move on, having reformed health care.
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. "emergency action" today in DC ~for DC DUers
from David Swanson, www.afterdowningstreet.org
there will be a protest in the Hart Bldg. Atrium, today at 5:30pm/local
Somebody pls. holler for me, will Ya?
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. I agree with Dean on this - the Senate bill is not worth the effort,
the House bill is at least worth saving.


mark
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Howard will be basically out of touch until the 19th
This is why he left the recorded message.

He knows full well at whom his message was directed (I'm not saying, but their initials are JL, BO, HR and NP).

If Howard were a sell-out, he would have been part of the Administration from day one (Rahm would have said
all was forgiven), or else he would be making huge money as a board member or spokesman for some pharmaceutical
company or medical insurance conglomerate. He wasn't interested in either. DFA pleads for funds not in order for
Howard to fly first class (he doesn't), but because they are not flush. The fact that Howard is not on a street
corner begging for spare change does not mean he is a fat cat who really doesn't care. Anyone who makes a statement
like that doesn't know what Howard's about, and for sure doesn't know him personally.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. good info - thanks

it is high time that someone stood up for Americans and stopped trying to turn this legislation into profits for corporate America

Dean is right.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
64. +100
:applause: Howard Dean (still) speaks for me! :patriot:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
70. Howard Dean has more patience than I can even fathom. nt
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
85. He learned it the hard way
He told me about the time when he realized he would have to give up his presidential campaign in 2004.
He called up Al Gore to have a shoulder to lean on, and Gore told him, "look, this is far bigger than
just you or just me." Howard says this was like a bolt of enlightenment, and it seems to me that he has
acted as if he repeated it to himself every morning ever since. He certainly hasn't looked back. When
Rahm had Obama shut Howard out of the administration, Howard was disappointed, but he never looked back.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some day, when Obama is kicking Rahm out of the White House
on his ass (mostly for being one), he calls Howard up and sings, "What Kind of Fool Am I?" and asks him
to come serve. Howard, should this happen, will not blast Obama for being late, but will say, "what can
I do for you, Mr. President?" and he'll mean every word.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #85
132. Stop. You're making me choke up.
I went to Iowa for him in '04 and then spent the rest of the season knocking on doors for Kerry, because Howard Dean said to.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #132
155. Same here.
Chairman Dean is the man.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #155
162. 1+++++++++++++++ Plain and simple.
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 10:54 PM by patrice
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
78. Send DemocracyForAmerica some money
I belonged when Howard was running for President, then I dropped out over time because like an idiot I was working to get Obama elected.

Here's their link
http://www.democracyforamerica.com

I am sure they can use some money. At least it's an organization that is trying to do the right thing, the true Democratic thing.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
87. I do--regularly
Jim's a good guy, too. His voice sounds a lot like Howard's. It's freaky when you have Jim Dean in front
of you and you hear Howard's voice (almost, anyway) coming out of him.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
246. It doesn't take a doctor to recognize an Obatomy
but it helps. Thank you Dr. Dean, wherever you are!
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Sentath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
248. Thanks for the reminder
sent in my pittance.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
288. The little Weasel you describe above
As saying "Forgiven" did say that to Joementum Limpmann (R) Conn
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. we were truly robbed when Dr. Dean was squeezed out of the election in 2004
but what a guy to coalesce around in forming some alternative to the single party system we have now.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I Believe I Feel a DFA Donation Coming On
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. good idea!
:thumbsup:

I think I'll make a point of returning the latest DNC junk mail with an angry note saying I'll be contributing to Howard Dean and DFA instead.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Don't forget FireDog Lake while you're at it.
I gave a little to both.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
92. Don't
Forget Bernie Sanders....They would make a great team. We have to start a second party, because we only have one ow. The party of greed. Call it repug or Democratic, it is sadly the same party.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
122. great idea
yes, I consider us a one-party country now, and I think the right visionary, progressive candidates would attract a LOT of votes in a new party.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #92
128. Dean/Sanders in 2012 or 2016!

:patriot:
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #128
208. Dean and Wes Clark in 2012 as Dems or Green party nt
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Autumn Colors Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #128
272. How about Dean/Grayson??? (nt)
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zoff Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
274. Ok but a "second" party isn't going to happen.
A new party might promote the "divide and conquer" meme, but the powers-that-be would rather hold on to power (and campaign funds) than subjugate us even more. Two parties are enough to divide Americans. And if only half of the populace are pissed off, then no real change will occur. So, to get more than half the people on the pissed-off bandwagon, we need ONE party. Just a thought.

So why not embark on a more doable task? What if, we all joined the Republik party instead?

On paper at least. While we still have the power of the ballot, a significant exodus will make Washington, or at least the D half of it, see that our votes do count and that elected officials must serve WE the people.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
213. AFAIK, we were not robbed: We donated. (Unless Kerry engaged in voter fraud during primaries.)
The media took Dean's yelp to his supporters--no big deal--and used it to question his sanity. And people told us Kerry (another DLCer) was far more electible. And we fell for it, instead of voting for someone "from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." And, in 2007-2008, we bought that Obama really was a lot different from Hillary Clinton. At least I did--right up until he started making his appointments. I cannot blame anyone but myself for that, though, nor do I want to. If I let myself off the hook, I may not change in the future and I sure don't want to make that mistake again.

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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #213
275. He is not DLC. He is to the left of
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 03:12 PM by politicasista
Dean, and his record shows that.

OTOH: It must be nice to have Kerry as one of your sens. Try having Corker and Alexander, then you'll understand.

Guess there is always something to complain about here. Nothing changes.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #213
282. I meant we were robbed by the PTB when they orchestestrated the media
and every available outlet to get people to turn against Dean.

Unfortunately, the average voter is far too influenced by media manipulation than by common sense and curiosity that would lead them beyond "the scream."
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thank-you Howard. I only regret that you were not our candidate in 2004 /nt
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 04:40 PM by still_one
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apnu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. The good doctor knows what the time is.
Too bad the Senate doesn't. You suck Reid!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'd been thinking the same thing.
The Repubs and Joe LIEberman would own the calamity that doing nothing will cause. The way the bill stands now the only winners are the insurance gangsters.
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tomhayes Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. Why not rebrand the bill as "insurance reform" bill
Get rid of existing conditions clause and put some price regulation on it. Then do the rest via reconciliation.
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. I say start all over, with single payer.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. I agree with Dean. This bill has become fucked up beyond redemption.
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
81. Thanks in part........
.....to the sterling leadership of our president. Who, I should remind some folks, supported Lieberman in the Conn. senate election.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
35. Dean, the man who should be president, comes through for the people again!
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gadjitfreek Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
36. Absolutely. They have made a mess of this.
It is time for them to scrap this beast and come up with a simple single payer system and ram it through in reconciliation. The Democrats are toast next year anyway, might as well do something that the Republicans will never dare mess with.
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ArcticFox Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. Hope lives
How ironic that the "left" is now calling for this bill to die, in light of the fact that Republicans were all calling for that same thing just a couple months ago. The original bill is already dead, replaced by the current zombie bill.

Notice how the Republicans have shut up lately? That should tell you all you need to know.

It will be a great victory if the "left" really can kill this bill.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. The interview was with Vermont Public Radio, transcript here...
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 05:04 PM by Truth2Tell
http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/86681 /

says story will be updated with audio...

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. I trust Howard Dean.
If he has signaled that the bill will HURT us,
I'm sure it will.

It has obviously been completely gutted.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. Damn right! And Sen. Burris can do it, with little to lose.
And should the Dems come to their senses, Burris could even save the day.

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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
153. Education needed: What can Burris do to save the day
In order to go to reconciliation does a Senator need to propose doing that? I just don't know and would love to see Burris come in and do this after all the hubbub about his appointment. Thanks!
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Krashkopf Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #153
222. Burris can . . . and said he WILL . . . filibuster any HCR bill that does not have . . .
a strong public option in it.

Who would have thought, after all of the hubbub over his appointment, that he would be right person, at the right place, at exactly the right time!?

Thank you BLAGGO!!
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seabeckind Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. I agree completely
This whole process has been one big clusterfuk giveaway to the insurance industry since the beginning.

In one area I agree with the GOP arguments. Instead of a monster 2000 page bill full of loopholes, how about 10 200 page bills? One of which would rein in the insurance companies and do nothing else. Instead of allowing companies to sell across state lines, how about a federal standard on the insurance coverage? They can take the south dakota credit approach and shove it.

A second bill would fix that part D nonsense.

A third would standardize records and billing.

And lastly -- a single payer bill that can be chosen personally for those who don't have or don't like their insurance coverage. That way the backwards morans can keep paying 30% overhead while the rest of us move on. This one can be done with reconciliation.

Then all congress has to do is find a willing insurance exec to write the bills for them.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
74. I agree.
The "All in ONE" cluster fuck was doomed from the start.
Better to write 3 or 4 CLEAN Bills that each cover ONE SPECIFIC part of the reform.
UP or DOWN votes on each one.
Remember who is WITH us and who is against us.

The establishment of a Public Option should NEVER have been included with legislation to regulate the Health Insurance Cartel.
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Don Draper Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
43. Go Dean! Perhaps Healthcare reform could pass through reconciliation
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 04:59 PM by Don Draper
If the Democrats passed some type of public option or medicare buy in through reconciliation, it would be a thumb in the eye to Lieberman and the blue dogs.

Lieberman is such a despicable man. When will the Dems strip him of his chairmanships and make him irrelevant?
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
195. Don Draper welcome to DU.
:hi:
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Don Draper Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #195
281. Thanks snugglepuss!
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. I think he's right. They've taken all the punch and left just turds in the bowl.
Basically.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'm With HOWARD DEAN... I Don't Care ANYONE Says About Me
here or ANYWHERE! I think he was trying to hang on to be supportive until he just couldn't take it anymore, and I'm glad he has finally said ENOUGH!!! I've been thinking this is the best thing to do for a VERY LONG TIME NOW!!!

Pas HCR, just to say you passed it, is just STUPID! And it was getting more and more stupid as the days went by! Our Reps in D.C. think we're just a bunch on ninnies and will take what we get! I'm NOT one of them!

It's just a crying SHAME it's come to this!! Anyone can take their guess as to just WHO was in there running this piece of crap!! I'm not fingering just any ONE person, there are a whole BUNCH of them! And I also think Obama should have gotten out in front and said... Get This Thing Done, And Get It Done Right!

He didn't! So it comes down to Snowe and the little idiot LIEberman!

JMHO
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. Agreed. Howard Dean tried to support this band of whores as long as he could. But this cannot be
supported.

I, too, stand with Howard Dean.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
94. Obama
should have written the damned thing and presented it to congress. If were true reform that helped the people, not the Insurance thieves, he should've told congress to use reconciliation (like the rethugs did) and pass it with no changes. That is how a leader leads.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #94
196. Exactly nt
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billymayshere Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
127. Im with you
The Doctor is absolutely right, this is nothing but a giveaway to the insurance industry. Can Mr. Dean just start a new party already? Im ready for it and I'm in another 50 bucks to DFA. I can't wait to see how they plan on handling the EFCA when it comes time for passasge of that. I don't see how this party maintains a majority in either house after this miserable failure.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #127
197. Glad you're here billymayshere
Welcome to DU. :hi:
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. I AM SO VERY GLAD YOU SAID WHAT NEEDED TO BE SAID!!
Thank you once again Howard Dean!
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Stealth of Nations Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. At this point I gotta agree with Dean
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #49
198. Hey there Stealth. Welcome to DU,
:hi:
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PAMod Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
51. The good Doctor is right again.
Maybe in 2010 Congress can get it right.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. It looks like the GOP is getting what they want.
When you run out of delays, make it worthless.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
73. The GOP will *hate* the bill that comes out of reconcilation.
And they can't stop it or water it down. It can also be done very quickly, at this point.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #73
144. But the so-called Dem centrists in the Senate can stop it.
If Lieberman doesn't even support this crappy bill, what chance is there that he would support a good bill coming out of reconciliation? I doubt if Nelson and a few others would support it either.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #144
154. We don't need Joe Blow if it comes out reconciliation, so we?
I think then we just need 51 votes and the Liebermans, 'Cons, Landrieus and Nelsons fade into irrelevance.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #154
167. In theory you are correct. But the problem is that Reid has rejected the idea of using...
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 11:23 PM by totodeinhere
reconciliation according to sources. Another problem is that reconciliation can only be used for budget matters, so therefore if they use reconciliation some vital parts of the bill such as preventing discrimination against preexisting conditions would need to be removed.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/14/white-h... /

(Edited for typo.)
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Guilded Lilly Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #167
262. Just heard Howard again on Dr. Nancy
According to him, and I totally believe him (and supported him back in 2004 until a failed sound system and a mocking media trashed his chances of running for President) with this bill, the insurance companies can't reject you for a pre-existing condition but they sure as hell can charge you up to 300% more if you have one.

I am not AT ALL anti-Obama, in fact, I am very much behind him, but a lousy bill, just to get something passed, is not going to help AT ALL. Future fixes and tweaks? How can they possibly guarantee anything when the Democratic party is simply not mean or nasty enough to ram things through when they have a majority AND are *in power* after the most dangerous and corrupt Republican driven administration ever?
They don't know how to fight as dirty or mean.

And why if it doesn't go through now, does it mean it can't go through in 2011? We all know that 2010 is going to be nothing but campaign bullshit, but if it isn't actually going to take effect until years from now anyway...let's get it right, and much better!
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
53. K&R
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
54. Afuckingmen
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
56. Thank you, Howard. Now let's let them know this is unacceptable
legislation. Obama just wants something to campaign on.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
57. Just how WEAK and TIMID is the Democratic Party??
I am so disgusted in the democratic party. When are they going to lead this nation instead of being the pawns of the GOP attack machine..
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #57
241. they are not weak and timid....
...they are strong and bold in favor of the rich while trying to disguise themselves as defenders of the people.

and quite frankly it's been working for them. obama has fooled many.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
59. I have to agree
I've been okay with compromise, but this compromises anything of value away.

Maybe, if the White House knows they aren't going to get a bill without our cooperation, they'll put pressure where it belongs...on the Conservadems. I hope the people of CT will let Lieberman know this is his last term in the Senate.
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maglatinavi Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
61. Dean
Kudos to Howard Dean. He thinks exactly as I do ... and he has the cojones to say what needs to be done...Kill the frigging bill... Start over with a one payment plan ...the bill in the Senate is an insult to all of us believers in a real health care reform... it is even an insult to the memory of Teddy Kennedy and a treacherous action of the POTUS for whom Teddy in illness and pain promoted personally his election... BO really has let us down ... (Of course, this will not have happened has Hillary been the POTUS)
For Howard: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
65. We didn't elect Joe Lieberman President of the United States
Kill this turkey!
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. But we may as well have. nt
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
143. We did elect him vice president.
Why President Gore chose him I don't know.
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julian09 Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #143
244. Lie berman
Gore took Lie berman to get the Jewish vote, in Florida, which he lost anyway.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
68. That was my conclusion last night when I heard the buy-in was getting the axe.
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 05:46 PM by MilesColtrane
Dean is a brilliant political strategist who's right on the issues.

Hey Obama, tell me again why you nominated Tom "taxes, what taxes?" Daschle as the head of Health and Human Services over Dean.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
93. daschle vs dean
Re: "Hey Obama, tell me again why you nominated Tom "taxes, what taxes?" Daschle as the head of Health and Human Services over Dean."

Besides Dean's agenda to get decent healthcare, that would be because Rahm is still in a snit because Howard's fifty state strategy, which Rahm fought tooth and nail, won.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
72. Agreed. (nt)
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
75. Dean is right
It's dumb to vote for a bill just for the sake of passing something.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
76. Yes! Thanks Dean for the call for Democrats to get out of this wasteland and move on. .....
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
79. Oh right, Howard Dean (who I supported in 2004) says it, it's OK, anyone else...
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 05:56 PM by joshcryer
...and they are thrown under the fucking bus. Fucking rich. Dean is not the first person to say this about the bill, many others have said it, but many people here have claimed "anything is better than nothing."

(I agree with Dean, I just hate this schizoid behavior we're seeing here on DU. I stay out of the political side for that reason.)
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Captain_Blue Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
80. Failure
We are in a state of failure. While I feel terrible for those relying on health care reform, I feel even worse for the failure of our country and the apparent inept leadership of President Obama. We are in great trouble and I very much support Dr. Dean. Kill the bill.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
83. Let's have a bill, right now, to do away with preexisting conditions.
We'll have to add the rest of the reform measures later. Sad.

Telling Reid to appease Leiberman was the stake in the heart.
RIP HCR 2009.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
125. why will that matter if there are no price controls?
Sure, someone with a pre-existing condition might be able to buy insurance now, for $200,000 per year. Big fucking deal.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #125
183. Exactly.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
84. Ahem----(cough, cough)-----uh-h-h-----
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #84
199. LOL
Kudos :applause:
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
88. We don't need a bill to expand Medicare - they can do it as a budget item, I believe.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
95. Way to go Dr Dean
Too damn bad the Dems in Iowa and other primary states in 2004 didn't have the sense to pick you as our candidate. And piss on the f'ing media who set out to destroy your candidacy that year and took a soundbite from the concession speech where you were only trying to rally your followers to destroy what was left of your candidacy with their endless film loop!

I'm with you - Dems might as well kill this piece of rancid sausage. All it will ensure now is giving the Repukes a talking point and an entry to make gains in 2010.
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twitomy Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #95
119. You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pqiFRNSnqs&NR=1

The takes on it still cracks me up! :rofl:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
96. + a brazillion. nt
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
99. Dean. The Democrat we all need. nt
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
100. Have to agree.
The Democratic party has just spawned its greatest failure in 15 years.

Shame on the president and the leadership in the Senate.

And curses to Holy Joe and the other DLC-Puke-ocrats.

Traitors and enemies of the people all.

Kill the bill.

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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
101. K&R n/t
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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
103. + google (and that's a lot!) NT
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
104. I agree. Kill the damned thing. It's useless. n/t
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
107. Fucking A Howard - kill this monstrosity of bill which lines the pockets of big insurance
and is so far from single payer it's not even in the same universe. Fuck this bill - scrap it - and do reconciliation just like the good doctor says. K&R for Howard Dean - the man who should have been president.
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blackbear79 Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
108. 55+ in Medicare made since.
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 07:31 PM by blackbear79
The provision to include 55+ in Medicare made a lot of since. Many folks in that bracket are being forced into early retirement or are underemployed. Even if they can afford the premium they are not eligible for coverage because of pre-existing conditions. Charge people in this group a fair market premium and medicare should actually make positive cash flow. I don't understand why this was not a popular option. No one, including Obama made a case for it. What a bunch of fucking assholes we have in Washington and I'm not talking about the Right only. Obama calls two special meetings and thats leadership? He has not taken the lead.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #108
200. Hey there Blackbear welcome to DU
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 02:08 AM by snagglepuss
:hi:
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
109. Dean is right, go back to congress get it right, get a strong public option & get Reconciliation 51%
We will then at least have the financial part of a strong health care public option bill - and then say fuck you Joe Lieberman, fuck you Olympia Snowe, fuck you Democratic blue-dogs, fuck you republicans and FUCK YOU INSURANCE CORPORATIONS!
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keitai Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
112. Now would be the perfect time
to do reconciliation. The reformists have bent over backwards to meet the moderate (right wing) Democrats halfway and every time a concession is made, they ask for three more. No one would hold anything against the Dems if they forced reconciliation in this case.
But the truth is I feel, as was stated in an earlier thread, is that Lieberman is the bad cop to Harry Reid's good cop and they are putting up the facade of conflict to ultimately give away shitloads of cash to the insurance industry.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
113. What Leader Do...
Lead.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #113
134. True, that!!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
114. They were talking about this on Ed Schultz's radio program tonight. Brilliant idea!
Lieberman only wants to play the game his way then fuck him. We have to put do this because the Whitehouse is filled with a bunch of wimps.
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
116. Dean is right. Question: Are there any polls set-up here at
DU that shows how many are for and how many are against this hollow bill?
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #116
177. Welcome to DU icee! Polls here mean nothing.
The makeup of this board is so far from the mainstream, even within the Party, that polls here mean virtually nothing in the real world.

:hi:
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #177
217. Okay, Thanks anyway. I just wondered what everyone thought.
nt
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
117. "This bill is no longer reform."
There it is.
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Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
118. + infinity!
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
120. Gov Dean is absolutely right on this. With a heavy heart, I must agree.
Thank you for being honest with us on this Dr. Dean.

And thank you for trying to warn us about getting totally screwed on the Senate bill.
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No Passaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
121. Thank you for providing leadership
Once again
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
123. I Stand with Dean
:toast:
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
124. Done

Dean doesn't have to play to the bleachers.

I trust him on this, and if he says it's not worth it, it's not worth it.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
126. Reconciliation- I'm with Dean....
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Sunnyshine Donating Member (698 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
131. So this is what honest leadership looks like when it is done in the name of putting people first.
K&R Doc!
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
133. But Mr. Obama? He Looooooooves dis bill!
why he even said so!
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #133
194. I dunno, he looked pretty deflated in the clip I just watched of him...
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 01:47 AM by WorseBeforeBetter
on the Countdown re-run. Not surprisingly, Baucus was sporting a shit-eating grin.
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Guilded Lilly Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #133
263. President Obama wants to move forward
and get things done. It doesn't need to be an either/or that those who don't like this bill have to dislike our President. We disagree with his thinking on this one. We are making our voices heard the only way we can.

He is an intelligent man of integrity who comes from a much more citizen-oriented place than his foul predecessor and I support the vast majority of his efforts, knowing I will not agree with some of them, but agree that having him there in the White House working toward more Democratic ideals is far far better than any alternative.

peace,
Lilly
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
135. the Doctor is back!....n/t
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
136. K&R
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Riverman Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
137. I Agree with Doctor Dean!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
138. VIDEO: Howard Dean on HCR on Countdown
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 09:18 PM by IndianaGreen
Dean: Keep on fighting for real reform, vote no on Senate bill

by Jed Lewison

Howard Dean on Countdown just now, making a clear and compelling case for saying no to the Lieberman-wrecked Senate bill.

Dean's two central points: (1) Saying it's "now or never" on health care reform presents a false dichotomy. Our health care system is in crisis, he says. We need to fix it now, it won't be another twenty years before we get the chance if the Senate bill fails. (2) The Senate bill fails to reform the system; indeed, it expands the current system which is already failing because it is too expensive.

Dean's bottom line: Don't give up on the fight for real reform. Say no to the Senate bill, and get something real done.

VIDEO at link:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/15/814885/-De...
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
139. DAMN STRAIGHT! This is why the media killed the Dean campaign
He is a leader with solid principals who is not afraid to speak his mind.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
140. I support Dean on this
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
142. K & R
and *yaaaaaaargggghhhhhhhh*

Go Dr. Dean!!!!! You speak for *me* "what you said" :applause: :bounce: :woohoo:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
145. Why? Just because Dean doesn't like it? Nay, I am still for anything that moves in a positive
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 10:03 PM by wisteria
direction away from the status quo.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #145
160. Oh yeah, it would move in a positive direction alright.......
for the insurance companies. For the people of the country? not so much. What, pray tell, do you find GOOD about that bill if they take away the 55 medicare buy in? What could there possibly be left that you could support? :shrug: Just curious.
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #160
193. Perhaps it's that IRS-enforced mandate with no cost controls...
that has health care "reform" supporters all atwitter over this Lieberman bill. Mmm, I can hardly wait.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #145
185. It is a very negative direction. It is destroying any chance at real reform by giving billions to
Big insurance
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
146. Howard's got it right.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
147. I hope SOMEONE inCongress has sense enough to listen to Dr Dean!!
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 10:08 PM by BrklynLiberal
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
148. Kill it? Real reform died a while ago. n/t
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
149. Dean is right as usual.
Probably a major reason why he was not included in this administration. Can't have one who speaks truth to power. It's time to concede that this is bill is a failure and that it would be better to not have one then to have this POS. Try again.

Obama has been such a disappointment so far. Can't he do anything right? Bail out Wall Street shysters, appoint Summers, Geithner, Bernanke, ramp up the war in Afghanistan, more gifts for the insurance industry. Where is the change?
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rury Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #149
166. Dean is wrong
I was flabbergasted to hear him say let's come back with a new Congress in January 2011 and pass HCR...bullshit!
What planet does he live on?
If we (as we likely will) have fewer Democrats on Capitol Hill after next year's elections, no progressive legislation will advance!
The time to do this is now,take the foundation, imperfect as it may be, and build on it later.
Social Security and Medicare were not passed in their present state either, they have been IMPROVED OVER TIME, PEOPLE!!
And WTF is up with the endless Obama bashing?
The man did what he could, but all Rethuglikkkans and a handful of Conservadems are owned lock, stock and barrel by the insurance companies and they were not going to budge, no matter who was president.
President Obama is talented, but he cannot pull votes out of his butt.
And it is unfortunately Congress' job to write laws, not the president's.
The real question is when will voters wake up and elect progressives who want the kind of progressive agenda most people favor according to public opinion polls.
A lot of pathetic jackassess in the United States keep voting against their own interests...sad, really sad.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #166
181. when will voters wake up and elect progressives?
Your question applies just as aptly to the Presidency.

If Obama lacks the ability to to get Congress to pass a real health reform bill, then he shouldn't be trying to pass such a bill.

I can usually tell when someone drags out the "Medicare was improved over time" meme that they either have no idea what they are talking about or they are being deliberately deceptive. The analogy is so absurd as to be meaningless.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
150. Good for Howard Dean! nt
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
151. Not yes
but Hell Yes!

Recommended
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
152. Agreed. This is NOT reform. Where do we start?
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
157. Hear, hear! Kill this bill. It's worse than doing nothing. n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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wackywaggin Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
172. Agreed!
This bill has turned into something other than health reform. I see it as just another reward for the incompetence of insurance companies over the past 25 years.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
158. Thank you, Howard!
It's time to stop this. There's nothing left here worth saving. You'da man, Dr. Dean!
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
159. I sympahize with Dean's position, but it's the FILIBUSTER that should be killed.
It's time to end the use of the filibuster, and start requiring only 51 votes for cloture.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #159
161. Well, in the meantime.......
we can get rid of this piece of shit bill. Ending the filibuster can come later, but right NOW we need to put this sorry-assed bill out of it's misery.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
165. This isn't "reform" -- it's criminal activity by legislators and "for profit" health care --
Putting Baucus -- a guy neck high in money from the health care industry in charge

of health care talks -- was the first crime -- this bill is the second.

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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
169. K&R - Thank you Howard Dean.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
170. The bill they have now before the Senate is a piece of shit, and everbody knows it. Kill it.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
171. Our government appears to be a fucking joke.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
173. As it should
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Krashkopf Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
175. + 312 - Kill the Bill and send MORE dems like DEAN to D.C.!
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 12:20 AM by Krashkopf
Thank you Howard Dean!
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
176. Kill the poverty tax ! Kill the Insurance profit Bill! K&R
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #176
187.  K&R Kill the Bill It's as crappy as the credit card bill they passed
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
182. kick
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
186. K&R #328. Thank goodness for Howard Dean.
I stand with Howard.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
188. K & R
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
189. It is worthless
Dean knows Democratics would get a bad name if they pushed this through

it is not reform it is a JOKE
which the people will not be amused at
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
190. I agree also. Contact your congresspeople to have them kill this bill!
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
191. The bill is not only a gift to the health insurance criminals it's a gift
to the repukes. When the average American finds out he has to buy overpriced crappy insurance from thugs or face stiff penalties, the Dems will go down in flames in 2010 - and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
202. I wish I could recommend this again.
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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
204. Thank you, Dr. Dean
You are the lone voice of reason in a sea of madness. Thank you.
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FunMe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
205. Go Dean!
It is almost midnight here in my beach city.

As I was listening to the governor, the first thought in my mind was:

Why is this gentleman not our President?

He gets it! He's angry just like all of us. And I agree. This bill is an INSURANCE bill.

How did we go from "our system is broken" to CORPORATE WELFARE for the insurance industry?

Why isn't America out in RAGE protesting in Washington by the millions?

Governor Dean (future President) needs to be pressuring the PROGRESSIVE Senators and Congressmen to veto any bill that does not include either:

- public option
- Medicare buy-in
- or Single Payer

To go from fixing the broken system to giving away OUR money? WTF?!?!?!

BETRAYAL of America by Obama, Reid, Pelosi, LIEberman, and the rest of the Obama(R)ahma crime administration. (yup, bush 3)

This video need to be replayed when most are awake.

I was listening to Air America and their guest from The Nation strongly suggested that Progressives need someone to do the same thing LIEberman did: indicate they will filibuster or not vote at all.

After all, the House bill won by only 3 votes.

We need 2-3 PROGRESSIVES representatives to bring back the power to We The People.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
209. Dump Reid, and then pass a Medicare for Everyone Bill on Reconciliation. Strip Lieberman of his
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 04:41 AM by leveymg
Chair and Seniority. Make an example of Joe the Traitor. You're gone, Joe. Crack the whip.

Put Schumer or someone else in charge of HCR. But, please, let someone who can get things done take the Leader role.

Finally, thank you Howard for doing what no one else has the guts to do, and putting the brakes on this runaway insurance industry truck! You're a good man, Howard Dean. Merry Christmas!
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
210. Dean's right but in the wrong way. This bill will pass and
it will be much better situation than what we have now. Killing this bill would be a disaster politically and practically for healtcare in this country.
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #210
211. Kill kill kill
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #211
212. you cant, cant, cant... it lives, lives, lives...
Get over it. Get over it. Get over it.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #210
220. How do you know what the final bill will consist of? So, how can you claim that the situation will
be better than it is now?

The worst thing for health care in this country and for Democrats (priorities straight, please) would be passing a bad bill that works for Big Health Care, Big Phsrma and Big Insurance, but not for the average American.

I would also love to know the specifics of what is supposedly going to make the situation much better, in your opinion.

Keeping the exemption from monopoly laws?

equiring insurers to cover those with pre-existing conditions BUT allowing them to charge those sick folk whatever they want to charge them--yet forcing those sick folks to deal with the private companies?

Promising PHARMA not to negotiate drug prices with them, but keeping it illegal for Americans to buy drugs from Canada, where they are cheaper--even just their very own medications?

Requiring millions and millions of new customers to deal with private insurers, America's true death panels?

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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #220
224. There are still the core prosivisions that deal with the uninsured, prior conditions, costs, etc.
Look it up yourself, you might be amazed how much good is still left..
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
216. I think Howard is being cleverer than many give him credit for
His "kill the bill" sounds like a wake-up call to Reid and Obama to stop asking "how high?" every time Lieberman and Snowe
say "jump!" Obviously some kind of reform is better than none at all, but if all that is included in the bill is a string
of concessions to the insurance industry and eliminations of benefits to people who are now shut out (un- or under-insured),
then it's no reform at all. There is a need to do SOMETHING, and Obama realizes he'll look pretty weak if he gets nothing.
Howard knows Obama is stuck in a rough place. Howard would have been in the same dilemma had he been the man in the Oval Office.
The difference is that he knows this subject iniside and out, and wouldn't have needed as much consultation as Obama understandably
needs, as he is not a physician. Obama's a quick learner, but he obviously can't know every in and out of every subject.

I think both Omaba and Howard both knew that we wouldn't get everything we want (and need) the first time around. What we do
need at a bare minimum is a base reform that can be built upon, especially if the economy improves. I think this bare minimum
is at the point of being eradicated, and Howard is drawing the line in the sand, telling the "compromisers," "OK, people, you've
appeased your money masters enough, here. Now it's time to give the people of this country a little something as well."

Back in 2006, I was a thing in Washington with Obama where he got up and siad, "I don't know about you, but I've had enough."
It is now time for him to call in the whole Congress and tell them that he's had enough, the people of the USA have had enough.

Howard may not be a part of the administration, but that should not be of any comfort to the "compromisers." Indeed, someone
with nothing to lose is the far greater danger. Make no mistake, Howard is NOT interested in a third party. It's not going to
happen. What Howard wants is for the Democratic Party to revert to being what it was, and for the "Democratic Wing" to be in
charge again. Not the Joe Lieberman Democratic Party, but the Bobby Kennedy Democratic Party--the Howard Dean Democratic Party.

Is it too much to ask of our leaders to INSPIRE again?
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
219. Thank you Dr. Dean
That's all.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
223. May heaven protect Dr. Dean and the American people, especially those who
have pre-existing ocnditions, but are not independently wealthy. (News flash: that's most of us. check your DNA and your wallet.)
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #223
227. I agree with Dr. Dean.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:04 AM by mvd
The bill with no public option, no medicare expansion, or no real price controls will just entrench the insurance industry and basically have corporations foist their services on us with the mandates. That's more corporate control than I ever imagined. I want no part of that.

Instead, we should pass the pre-existing conditions thing and some others and use reconciliation for things affecting the deficit, like the public option.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
225. Tecommended for Dr. Dean.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
230. Recommended.
n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
232. Mandates for the Insurance Companies, and no PO - nice - KILL THE BILL!!!
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 09:07 AM by TankLV
This is nothing but an Incurance Co. Employment Act.

They get 45 fucking MILLION new customers - forced by our government - and we get SCREWED!!!

Why is it that we're always in a race to the BOTTOM (always caving in to the fucking CONSERVATIVE ASSHOLES and never the other way around?!!!)

Oh - and WE WERE RIGHT on this one!!!

WE TOLD YOU SO!!!

And all the fucking obamabots were WRONG - HORRIBLY WRONG on this one!!!

"Just wait and see" they all said. RIGHT!.

NO "public option" PLUS a fucking MANDATE!!!
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
233. unfortunately this is exactly the strategy
that a republican leadership would have an orgasm over. "You dems voted against it, so you must not need it."

I am all for killing the bill and drafting real health care reform that puts a sunset date on the insurance industry in primary care coverage, and takes your employer and "premiums" completely OUT of the equation.
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Maineman Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
234. I want revenge on those who are killing health care reform
Leiberman, Nelson, all Republicans, health insurance profiteers.
Revenge is an ugly concept, but this is getting to be a war.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
235. Yep.
Time to start over.
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yeswecanandwedid Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
236. I'm with Dr. Dean on this one. nt
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
237. Kick.
Time to make some noise.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
238. 
left with a bill thats not worth supporting."

Go, Dean!!!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
242. I love Tom Harkin, but I agree with Dean and Kos
We either need to remove the mandate or kill the damn bill.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
243. You can't "kill the bill" -and- "start reconciliation".

I'm sure he realizes that and just phrased this badly. You have to reconcile the House bill with a Senate bill. So the Senate has to pass something before the reconciliation process can even begin.

From someone who wastes a lot of time reconciling the numbers between different financial systems while always thinking, "if the financial people always ask us in IT to do these reconciliations, why do we even have financial people?"


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julian09 Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #243
250. Reconciliation
Won't help much. If the public option or medicare 55 opt in, is back in ; when it gets back to the senate, we will have the same result. We have to have primary opponents against the conserveadems. They are more worried about their seat, than the good of the country. Better to be right and lose seat than be wrong on all issues, for years.
I agree with Gov Dean, health care won't wait another generation, if bill goes down, it's too important. Getting rid of Rham is a good start. Obama get a backbone.
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bc3000 Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #243
252. I think you misunderstand what is meant by reconciliation
though your final conclusion may be correct.

When they talk about reconciliation, they don't mean the reconciliation of a bill between the House and Senate versions, they are talking about budget reconciliation which would be a way to bypass a filibuster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_S...
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #252
257. Gotcha. Thanks for that correction.

Reading "go back to the House" in the OP, my mind inserted "bill" at the end of that. Bad mind playing tricks on me.

:)


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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
245. +1000, n/t
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bc3000 Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
249. Kicked and Rec'd - kill this bill.
Better no 'reform' at all than a handout to the insurance companies disguised as reform.

We can try again later.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
251. Dean's got it right
Some of our democratic DLC congresscritters have been trying to shut out Dean for awhile. If he decides to put his hat in the ring again-I'll be campaigning and voting for him. This is a game folks. Remember the Patriot Act? After the OKC bombing was the first time the Patriot Act was presented to Congress-Clinton president with a majority repuke congress. Remember how the Repukes stood up and declared how the bill was against the Constitution, against the citizens. Then, 9/11 and the * administration is in power--those same repukes couldn't pass it quick enough. This bill is looking a lot like a repuke bill, especially for the insurance industry--especially if there is not enough regulation in the bill against the industry. The repukes love, I mean LOVE to privatize the shit out of everything. And, while they're blathering about how they're against this bill--they're actually loving every minute of it. If it's a bill that's for corporations more than for the people, those repukes will love it!!!! That's why I believe it's all a dog and pony show--an act for the public. Acting like they're concerned about their constituents, while they're actually gloating about wall street's and insurance industry's new windfall.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
253. Dean is right.

No public option, no mandate. Period.

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
254. I have to agree. It appears that they have removed every last speck of GOOD
from this bill and made it into a giveaway for the insurance scammers with the mandate.

SINGLE. PAYER. NOW.

MEDICAL CARE FOR ALL. NOW.
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colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
255. Go Fly A Kite Rahm
The Obama administration is playing out like Clinton's third term. I'm completely with Howard Dean, the thing to do is to send Bernie's bill through reconciliation. But Reid is lacking a pair and beside that Obama might not sign Bernie's bill anyway if Harry suddenly found his spine.

The big hope to blow up this ultra watered down bill that's now been watered down still more is in the House. Hopefully the true progressives in the House stick to their guns and say no dice.

Change we can believe in - hardly.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
258. Dean's Latest: CALL SEN. REID, DEMAND PUBLIC OPTION
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 12:36 PM by wordpix
Straight from Dr. Dean to my email address:

"I'll get straight to the point.

If Democrats remove the choice of a public option, they can't force Americans to buy health insurance.

Here's the deal, Senate leaders are all over Washington claiming they finally have a healthcare reform bill they can pass, as long as they remove the public option. After all, they say, even without a public option, the bill still "covers 30 million more Americans." The problem is that's not really true.

What they are actually talking about is something called the "individual mandate." That's a section of the law that requires every single American buy health insurance or break the law and face penalties and fines. So, the bill doesn't actually "cover" 30 million more Americans -- instead it makes them criminals if they don't buy insurance from the same companies that got us into this mess.

A public option would have provided the competition needed to drive down costs and improve coverage. It would have kept insurance companies honest by providing an affordable alternative Americans can trust. That's why, without a public option, this bill is almost a trillion dollar taxpayer giveaway to insurance companies.

We must act fast. Both Democratic Majority Leader Harry Reid and Democratic Senators need to hear from you. Please stop whatever else you are doing and make the calls right now.

Senator Harry Reid
DC: (202) 224-3542
Carson City: (775) 882-7343
Las Vegas: (702) 388-5020
Reno: (775) 686-5750

Call your Democratic Senator too -- Senate Switchboard: (202) 224-3121

REPORT YOUR CALL AND TELL US HOW IT WENT

Without the choice of a public option, forcing Americans to buy health insurance isn't just bad policy, it's political disaster for Democrats -- a ticking time-bomb for years to come.

Does anyone think Republicans won't use this against Democrats in 2010?

What about in 2014 after the mandate goes into effect and the press reports all the horror stories of Americans forced to choose between paying their monthly health insurance bill to Aetna or paying rent?

The mandate is toxic and Democrats will own it. By the 2016 presidential election, is there any wonder how this will play out for Democrats?

CALL SENATOR HARRY REID NOW AT (202) 224-3542 THEN REPORT YOUR CALL HERE

The message is simple: No public option? No Mandate! " :applause:

:applause:Let's flood Reid and our senators! :applause: So far, cannot get through to any of Reid's offices---hopefully, he's getting a deluge!
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #258
267. Call the local offices if you can't get through in DC. Also DC Senate # is screwed
it asks for a mailbox number but I can't find one for any Senator...?
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NatlAnthem Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
264. Reality
Progressives/Liberals/Democrats:

It will probably fall on deaf ears, but it has to be said anyway. You do not have a majority. If you did, you could change the world to your thinking, assuming you could agree on that. Personally, I am glad there is NOT a true progressive majority. The current Congress and Presidency is made up of different constituencies forced into pigeon holes of Democrat and Republican, and you have mistakenly believed that because Obama was elected, that people really wanted the Change some of you worked for. The reality is you DID get a progressive president, but only through a coalition of voters who wanted a 1) black president, or 2) anyone but another Bush or 3) truly wanted progressive change or 4) saw an opportunity to gain power through fanning the fires of "change" (read SEIU) of 5) always vote Democrat.

What you are left with is a minority in the population who truly want 2000+ page bills that will sink the country with debt (oddly being very Bushlike in that respect), and a majority of the population that really just wants a solid economy, a chance to struggle for success and a government to stay off their lawn ... even though you got them to vote once for Obama.

You are not facing some corporatocracy like some fear, or greedy insurance execs or the fabled Wall St. and/or "right wing conspiracy". What you face is the fact that the vast majority of this country doesn't want to be controlled by your crazy laws, your fraudulent climate scare tactics, or pathetic welfare-state movements. THAT is where tea parties come from ... angry people who want to not be slaves to your bloodthirsty taxation which take from their children to give to someone elses who DIDN'T WORK FOR IT.

You can't spin that way, you can't legislate around it with arcane passages, and you can't shove that through with any nuclear option. The People do not want what you are shoveling.

It's not Obama, it is not obstructionists, it is not weak-kneed leaders, it is not a lack of community organizing, it is not a lack of proper funding or a lack of good advisers (well okay, they really do suck).

It is plain and simple that while you believe SO strongly in some utopian dream that is just a signature away, a real majority of voting and demonstrating political newbs HATE your ideas and passions. And you get angry from that, and just want to shove harder.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #264
266. private individuals have lost more of their rights under * via
the patriot act and suspension of posse comitatus. Maybe you can think why some of those social laws (helping the elderly, the least fortunate) were put into place. Yes, it is about corporations, power and political influence--that most americans do not have. There is no real free market. Keep thinking there is--but there is predatory capitalism. Only the big boys get a chance to play today, just like it was approximately one hundred years ago. The robber barons are back, but with the world as their game board. I'd suggest you read some history, especially about laws passed in this country that benefited companies against labor and why the government enacted anti-trust laws.

As you are FREE to not accept help when you may need it; others have the right to think differently. Of course, I'm quite surprised about so-called "libertarians". I knew a couple of them, always complained about those welfare moms, people living on the dole; and yet, both, were the first to cheat the system. So, I find it quite humorous hearing those who talk about self-determination and "pulling themselves up by their boot straps", when some of them would accept assistance in a heartbeat if it meant survival.

And, I'll tell you what I find so pitiful in this "capitalism is good" wealthy country--a begging can at the market. A plea for money because someone's child or someone's mother or father is destitute because of medical costs. To me, I find it heartless in this country that someone must beg so that they will not die. Of course, that requires compassion and I find it sadly lacking in some of our "pull yourself by the bootstrap" kind of people or is it "I got mine, screw the rest of you" type people?
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #266
273. Also, might I suggest a book called "The Predator's Ball"
about the de-regulated greedfest under Reagan. How some greedheads, not having to use their own assets but junkbonds taking over American companies that were in the black and basically raping them;thus, putting them in the red and selling them off to any foreign entity. Workers, some generational, were left without jobs, communities were devastated. Yes, it is about corporations and the power they wield, especially in our government. The book also gives a list of companies that went bankrupt under Reagan, some decent companies that provided decent wages and benefits to their employees. But, again, your FREE to believe the way you do--while we're at it, who cares if we eat shite, or drink tainted water, or breathe crappy air or buy recalled, unsafe items or have S&L and banks go under with our money. I mean, those corporations are FREE to sell us shite, right? We don't need no stinking regulations to get in the way of free market, right?
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NatlAnthem Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #273
289. Reality Again
Personal experience often gives a better lesson than a book. Having worked in finance and management at many of the companies facing the challenges of the 80's and 90's, I can tell you the driving force was ALWAYS shareholder value. Each decision made so that the real owners of the company, those who owned equity (individual 401k participants, investors, insurance companies, etc.), would see the value of their stock increase from LONG-range decisions, not short term wins.

The takeover targets of the 80's were put in that position by being inefficient, meaning the company owned assets paid for by stockholder investments, and did not make an adequate return on those investments to their owners. Others could then buy the stock, make management changes, and see an increase in that investment. Sometimes this meant breaking inefficient large corporations apart to more agile components, which led to better management strategies from those who learned the lesson in the 90's and beyond.

I find it interesting that you rail against monolithic organizations, but then also rail against the mechanisms that the market uses to mitigate the problem. And there were a hell of a lot of basic ordinary people who hoped like hell companies WOULD be more efficient back then, as their portfolios of savings were in the dumper ... like today.

I think spin leaders in the liberal/progressive movement have really whacked out a lot of liberal folks views on business and industry, just as I think the focus on shareholder value to the exclusion of real organizational compassion has not helped businesses.

But again, reality is what it is. People are owed NOTHING by life or other people. If they were, there would be no room for compassion, a necessary growth element to the soul. The progressive movement is not about saving lives or bettering people, it is about control, and they USE the heartstrings to motivate their troops. But ask yourself, if leaders really cared about the health and well-being of the poor or infirm, would they spend all the time and money on politics, or would they spend the money helping the poor and infirm, and in educational programs that would alert people to needs and the growth they can experience by helping out?

Instead, progressive leaders seek control of money flows from the citizenry for power, not benevolence. If they truly sought real change that mattered to those in need, they would NOT support a ridiculous bill like the one before congress. They would seek change on two fronts ... real game-changing cost curve effects (tort reform, competition in pharma, more medical professionals to drive costs down, etc.) and a robust economy providing more jobs and benefits to lower-income workers. A stronger economy would support real modest safety nets, which few conservatives have a problem with.

But instead they walk the plank just to get ANYTHING or they rabidly demand that only control by their leaders can solve the problem. All the while truly pissing off the People by stealing their livelihoods through taxation, public debt and certain inflation from currency devaluation. Demanding people buy insurance only allowed by liberal leaders? Oh hell no.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
265. I was a big supporter of his back in '04. Still am and always will be.
he's right.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
268. Dr. Dean is a thinker
Rec
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Meanblogger Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
269. We lose
Health care (like they care about our health) companies win again. The can only do so because so many people agreed to be bought. We are the the United States of Big Business.

http://pisspeopleoff.blogspot.com/
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
270. Rockefeller: Dean 'irresponsible'
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) called former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean and other more liberal members of the Democratic Party irresponsible on Wednesday for urging Senate leaders to scrap the current health care reform bill. On Tuesday, Dean told several media outlets that Democrats should kill the bill rather than pass a piece of legislation that, in his view, makes too many concessions. Asked for his response to Dean during an interview on MSNBC on Wednesday, Rockefeller told Dean and his fellow progressives should not sulk over the bill, but instead work to get the 60 votes needed to pass it.

It is nonsense, and it is irresponsible. And coming from him as a physician, it is stunning. He's wrong, Rockefeller said. Im a grownupYou never get everything that you want. You don't sulk about it. You try to keep improving the bill and you do it next year or the year after. I mean, I didn't get some things I want, the West Virginia senator added. So what? So what? There's a whole lot of things in there that I have been dreaming about for years and years.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30675.html

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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #270
284. How about THIS for the height of irresponsibility, Dem senators-killing the drug reimportation bill
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20 ...

President Obama writes a new health reform prescription

By Dana Milbank
Wednesday, December 16, 2009

On the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to take on the drug industry by allowing Americans to import cheaper prescription medicine. "We'll tell the pharmaceutical companies 'thanks, but no, thanks' for the overpriced drugs -- drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada," he said back then.

On Tuesday, the matter came to the Senate floor -- and President Obama forgot the "no, thanks" part. Siding with the pharmaceutical lobby, the administration successfully fought against the very idea Obama had championed.

"It's got to be a little awkward," said Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.).

It's even more awkward for millions of Americans who are forced to pay up to 10 times the prices Canadians and Europeans pay for identical medication, often produced in the same facilities by the same manufacturers, simply because the U.S. government refuses to rein in drug prices. snip

One after the other, the drug industry's friends from pharmaceutical-manufacturing states New Jersey, Delaware and North Carolina went to the floor Tuesday to cite the FDA letter.

Sen. Robert Menendez (D-Bristol-Myers Squibb) warned that "you may have a heart attack" because of counterfeit medicine from abroad.

"This is a matter of life or death," agreed Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-Merck).

Carper (D-AstraZeneca) cited "remaining safety and soundness and health concerns," while Sen. Kay Hagan (D-GlaxoSmithKline) voiced "serious doubts that we can adequately ensure the safety of the drug supply."

These arguments don't hold up well, considering that 40 percent of the active ingredients in American prescription drugs come from India and China, and that the latter slipped tainted heparin past the FDA. But fright was about the best argument opponents could use to defeat a popular proposal that would save the federal government $19 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Consumers would save many times that. snip
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
271. Too bad about Dean's :Yee-Haa" moment
This would be a REAL fight if he were in the oval office!
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #271
283. you mean, too bad about the orchestrated effort to make it "Dean's moment"
take this to the bank: If Dean had not had that "moment," there would have been something else soon thereafter--some casual remark taken way out of context, something they could ridicule and use to make people question his sanity or "acceptability" or "electability," or whatever it is they want to project. The other half of the devil's deal between the corporations and politicians is a compliant, complicit media that will do the masters' bidding.
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
277. Gibbs: "I don't know what piece of legislation [Dean's] reading"
Gibbs strongly takes issue with Howard Dean's charge that the Senate health care bill is an insurance company giveaway. "If this is an insurance company's dream, I think the insurance companies have yet to get the memo," he says. "They've spent hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying against this legislation ... If this is such a good deal for them, Im not entirely sure why they're fighting." "I don't know what piece of legislation he's reading," Gibbs continues. "I think if you talk to members of the Senate, they'd represent a similar viewpoint in the political spectrum that Howard Dean does. They seem to disagree as much with Howard Dean as I think we would."

http://www.politico.com/politico44 /

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #277
280. Gibbs is beginning to sound as credible as Doctor Goebbels
The WH is losing credibility faster that I can type.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
278. 436 Recs!
Kick!
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
279. `
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gorekerrydreamticket Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
287. Howard Dean should quit....
and run for President!
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