Italian Jury Reaches Verdict in Amanda Knox Case

[DebbieCDC]

Source: King 5 Television Website, Seattle

PERUGIA, Italy - An Italian court has reached a verdict in the yearlong trial of American student Amanda Knox, who is charged with murdering her British roommate. The court is expected to announce the verdict at 3 p.m. PT.

The eight members of the jury, including two judges, sequestered themselves in the courtroom of the Medieval city of Perugia beginning Friday morning.





Read more: www.king5.com

[truebrit71]

1. That quick? Guilty is my guess...

...

[CTyankee]

5. I think that guy that testified against her did it.

Based on the evidence, I doubt if she would be convicted here.

Nice town, Perugia. I loved it there and have fond memories. If she's convicted, I will be disgusted with them, tho...

[pnwmom]

10. If she's convicted, I think the programs that send American students there should

pull out. My sister went there, but I wouldn't send one of my children if they would convict Knox on the basis of this contrived case.

[dipsydoodle]

11. Please do enlighten us

on how exactly it's contrived.

[Raston]

18. Please put on your thinking cap for JUST ten seconds..

How thick do you have to be to not know that she was set up to fail?

[CTyankee]

28. The school for the stranieri attracts a lot of Brits, which may be a factor in this case.

I really don't know how many Americans are involved in this program, but if it is heavily weighted to Brits then maybe there is a prejucice to convict Amanda.

I don't know. I always thought that school in Perugia was so nice...now I don't know...

[noiretextatique]

245. i went to the american university of rome for a semester

with a mandatory stop at the universita per stranieri for intensive italian.

[pnwmom]

29. First, they put Amanda and her codefendant in jail even before there was any

indictment.

They announced their crazed-sex theory of the motive, and held onto it even after it turned out -- months later -- that the footprints in Meredith's bedroom and the DNA in her body all matched a third, unrelated party. There was no physical evidence of Amanda or her boyfriend in that room, but that didn't stop the prosecutors. They just grafted the Amanda case onto the case of the real murderer (who, by the evidence of the broken glass, entered through Meredith's bedroom window) and decided that all THREE of them had killed Meredith as part of a crazed sex scene.

[liberation]

80. OK, please then stay in the US

last thing I need is more entitled Americans travelling f*cking things up for the rest of us, who enjoy travelling and experiencing abroad in peace and calm.

[paulsby]

127. american exceptionalism

noted... again

[medeak]

190. how was she entitled?

parents school teacher and out of work retailer?

[axollot]

220. Neither would I! The evidence - DNA evidence at that -

shows exactly who the murderer was, they made Knox out as an example to US foreigners IMHO. To bad. Hopefully real justice could still be done for Knox and her boyfriend.

cheers
Sandy
who's very glad she isnt the only one that notices how bizarre blaming Knox for this murder when a violent criminal's DNA was everywhere! Crazy, sad world.

[tonysam]

31. It was that guy, Rudy Guede, and I believe only him, who was responsible.

What a travesty. Knox never had a chance.

[CTyankee]

49. I think so too. He would have every reason to finger her...

It just kind of makes sense given the lack of evidence against Amanda.

This is so awful for this girl. I wonder how she can ever appeal this...

[beac]

81. Do you also feel awful for the innocent man that Knox claimed she "heard" murdering

Kercher, even though it was later proved he was no where near the house-- a man who had been her friend and boss and who lost his business in the aftermath of her lies?


ETA: The American coverage of this trial has been unbelievable biased in Knox's favor.

[CTyankee]

169. She says the police coerced that testimony. nt

[sasquatch]

202. Coerced testimony that a higher court threw out

[paulsby]

125. we also require unanimity amongst the jury

italy iirc, does not

[struggle4progress]

237. I think you're wrong about unanimous US juries: as I understand DUNCAN v. LOUISIANA,

unanimous juries are not required in the US: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=391&page=145

And, in fact, SCOTUS recently refused to address this issue:

U.S. Supreme Court declines to consider non-unanimous jury verdicts
By Paul Purpura, The Times-Picayune
October 05, 2009, 12:03PM
The U.S. Supreme Court has declined to take up the question of whether non-unanimous jury verdicts are constitutional, dashing hopes of criminal convicts in Louisiana and Oregon to get new trials.
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2009/10/us_supreme_court_declines_to_c.html

[pnwmom]

7. Not really that quick -- eleven hours of deliberations, and a unanimous verdict isn't required.

[panzerfaust]

208. At this remove there is no way that we can know the truth

The least sensational, most helpful discussion of the entire process which I have seen is in today's Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-trial-perugia

Meredith Kercher murder: guilty verdicts put spotlight on Italian justice
..."Sentencing to life imprisonment two young people, aged 22 and 25, would mean destroying their lives forever," he continued, "but letting them off would mean gainsaying not only the entire investigation, but also the judges who have reached decisions before them."

It hardly needs to be said that the "danger" of contradicting police and prosecutors would not exactly weigh heavily in the deliberations of a British or American jury. But Italy is not Britain or the US...

The article also points out some of the peculiarities of Italian justice - for example such things as the fact that evidence forbidden in court is distributed in the media (along with all of the supposedly confidential inquires made by the police), that there was no problem with the chief prosecutor proceeding, even though he himself was on trial for previous abuses during investigations{*}, that the trial proceeded even though another person had already been convicted of the murder (the prosecutor now says that this persons role was 'peripheral' - why then did he receive a 30 year sentence, and Knox and her boyfriend much less than that?), that evidence lay around unsecured for weeks after the crime (this would be thrown out in an instant in the US), etc.

I have no idea of who committed the murder.

Certainly it seems probable that it was at least one of the three who have now been convicted. The strongest evidence I can see in favor of it not being Knox (or her boyfriend) is the apparent total lack of finger prints at the scene - whilst it was covered with those of the person previously convicted.

--------
{*} http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/05/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-murder
--------

[axollot]

224. We saw how very different the legal system can be when Madeleine McCain

went missing in Portugal. Some of these places have a legal system so very different from our own they look almost medieval. This is not saying that the men and women who work in all these countries do not actually want to solve the crimes, I'm sure there are many great people trying to provide justice.

With Knox and her boyfriend, they lacked motive, lacked a criminal past (although Knox was a partier and at times a bit desperate when initially arrested - who wouldnt be? She believed like a good many of us would, telling them what they wanted to hear would clear her name. ), there was heaps of DNA from Rudy who did have a criminal history of assault/robbery - then he gets to testify against her too? Insane.

Cheers
Sandy

[Craftsman]

2. Back that soon, she better like Italian food.

[Craftsman]

3. Back that soon, she better like Italian food.

[brooklynite]

4. Midnight, Italian time?

Seems late for a verdict...

[pnwmom]

8. Yes.

[medeak]

115. Italy just comes alive at midnight n/t

[izquierdista]

6. Medieval city?

Every city in Italy is medieval. A lot of them go even further back, to the Roman empire. Now if it was an Etruscan city, that would be unusual.

[pnwmom]

9. I think the prosecutors just couldn't let go of their initial theory that these two

had done it, even after they discovered that the footprints on the scene and the DNA in her body matched a person who hadn't even been a suspect. By then, they had spent months trying to fit Amanda and her boyfriend into the puzzle. So they made up this ridiculous sex story -- with no evidence -- and went with it.

[sasquatch]

26. Well hey, sex sells

You need a conviction for your bullshit theory, you go with what sells.

[Kansas Wyatt]

46. Last night on CNN (A.C. I think)

There was a reporter on there that had a previous experience with the prosecutor, and basically called the guy nuts, because the prosecutor had him jailed for a bunch of trumped up weird conspiracy shit before any of this.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. DNA was found in the bra and the body of the victim

from the 2 convicted males so there was sex involved at some point

[Beaverhausen]

12. CNN reporting guilty on all charges

[Crabby Appleton]

13. Sentenced to 26 years.

[dhill926]

14. man, that's rough....

anyone interested in the vagaries of Italian justice, should read "The Monster of Florence." The latest edition actually had an afterword concerning the Knox case.

[pjt7]

15. I thought she was guilty

-

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

17. WTF looks like she had the same lawyers O.J. did n/t

[Raston]

19. Except that OJ did it and got off..

What does A have to do with 5? The IQ on this thread has rapidly dropped.

[CatWoman]

20. and you know this, how?

and why are you being so rude?

[Raston]

21. Because I've studied these cases

and I'm being so rude because such 'guilty' assertions fly in the face of common sense, and for people to be so cavalier about it is why our nation is in the mess that it's in. People who make such assertions need to go clip more coupons received after their Black Friday binge and get back to shopping, because they obviously aren't adept at thinking.
They should buy a nice stocking stuffer for this poor girl while they're at it.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. You need to study the DU rules...

Seriously, yr being incredibly rude and it's against the rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. I was just going to ask the same thing...

I'm wondering if there's some personal connection to Knox going on or something else to account for the nastiness in the posts...

[Raston]

24. clip from Time:

Video footage from the crime scene of British student Meredith Kercher's murder flickers on a laptop screen as Bremner points out what she deems critical flaws in the collection of evidence. After placing rulers on the sides of a bloody shoeprint, for example, a blue-rubber-gloved hand reaches down with a piece of white cloth and scrubs the bloody mark off the tile floor before putting the cloth into an evidence tube. This happens three times for three separate footprints. In film footage taken at least a day later, another team of investigators attempts, using photographs, to place where the footprints had been.
----------
ref. previous post re: common sense - I'm being nasty because all someone has to do is read (anything related) to see that the case is built on erased evidence, and someone has the nerve to assert that they always thought she was guilty.
It's horrible. Horrific. If you're not angry, you're not paying attention.

[miyazaki]

27. sounds like the moon hit your eye with a big pizza pie,

:crazy:

[Violet_Crumble]

32. More like yr being rude because you've got some emotional issues...

I hope she rots in prison, btw :)

[CTyankee]

33. I agree with you, Raston. Who do you think did this?

This is horrible. I cannot believe it. How can they assert this? I am in shock over this...why would they automatically assume that Amanda did this and not somebody else?

I don't understand the mindset of the Perugiani in this. Are they just totally unamerican? Iwas there in 2006 at the time of the election here and no one was upset or mean about things. What the hell?????

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I think they should leave white american girls alone...

Clearly it's unamerican to arrest them for committing crimes!

[CTyankee]

41. And based on what evidence?

That is what bothers me. I don't think they have it, at least in an American court of law, to support a conviction. Do you?

Please tell me what YOUR evidence is?

waiting...

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Haven't you been following the case in the international media?

There's been a lot of stuff there about evidence. Not sure what the US media is reporting but if the hysterical response of some in this thread is any indication, it's pretty crappy and biased.

Not sure why anyone cares what would have happened in a US court. If she had money she'd walk, and if she didn't, she'd possibly get the death penalty. Not exactly a justice system I'd be proud of...

[pnwmom]

67. I've been following the international media and, more and more, they've been

noting the huge flaws in the case. There was MORE than reasonable doubt. On the other hand, there was a huge amount of evidence pointing to the guilt of the third individual, who has already been found guilty.

[Violet_Crumble]

155. You can find flaws in most court cases...

So why the fixation with this case?

[tonysam]

43. It's the twisting of the case by the European tabloids which is the

"evidence."

A prosecutor acting like the one in Italy would be disbarred in this country.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I should have done what you guys did and stick to American tabloids...

Gotta have things twisted in the right direction...

Also, it's a bit silly of people to start suddenly carrying on like the US justice system is a good one. It's appalling and many prosecutors who should have been disbarred still work....

[shellgame26]

109. I think a lot of people

don't want to admit that being young, white and pretty gets you a lot of sympathy in the American media. Remember the schoolteacher in Florida. They said she was "too pretty to go to jail". And let's not forget Jessica Lynch's treatment compared to Shoshanna Johnson's.

[Violet_Crumble]

156. Yeah, it reminds me of Shapelle Corby's arrest in Bali...

She's the pretty, young, white girl who's now sitting in an Indonesian prison after she was convicted of smuggling drugs into the country. The media went into overdrive, and proof that if yr not a pretty, young, white girl in an even worse situation, yr not going to get the media attention or the outrage of the population was when a less attractive Australian woman was part of a gang arrested and convicted of smuggling drugs into Indonesia. In the case of this Knox woman, I feel the same as I did when it came to Shapelle Corby - it really sucks if they're innocent, but if they're not they deserve everything they get and people who insist they're innocent are just playing wishful thinking...

[shellgame26]

168. for men

it probably boils down to an unconscious desire to have sex with them.

[pnwmom]

66. It's wrong to make a snap judgment about the case, as the Perugian police did,

and then hang onto it even after a mountain of evidence turns out to point to an unrelated suspect.

[Violet_Crumble]

157. Italy should have shipped in a bunch of Americans to sort it out....

Seriously, you guys are so good with the inside knowledge and are so convinced that she's so innocent ;)

[jenniferj]

173. Actually the victim was British so if the case could have been

moved it would have been to London...And believe the verdict would still have been guilty and Knox's father would be blaming the British legal system instead...

[beac]

85. If you've only been following the case in the American press, I guess I can understand why

you might think Knox got railroaded. Believe me, the coverage has NOT been balanced here in the U.S.

Perugians are NOT "totally unamerican" (assuming you meant "anti-american") and it is unfair to the good people of that city, which I too have visited, to say so.

Knox was her own worst enemy and IF she's not guilty (and I think she is), her sociopathic behavior and her FALSE accusation of a totally innocent man, a man who had been her friend and boss, didn't help her case.

[dipsydoodle]

162. Ditto

It was also mentioned on our TV news here in the UK , after the result , that broadly speaking her only support was USA based. In general most in the UK and Italy considered her to be guilty.

[demoleft]

192. right. that's the point.

and yes, perugia is all but anti-anyone. open-minded city, with a tradition in international visitors and students.
ciao to you from abruzzo, italy.

:hi:

[beac]

196. Non ho avuto il piacere di visita dell'Abruzzo,

ma spero a qualche giorno. L'Italia è un paese vero bello.

Le mie scuse per la scortesia dei miei connazionali.

:hi:

[demoleft]

215. spero di vederti presto qui allora...

...non ti scusare per la scortesia - la discussione accesa qualche volta è così.
va tutto bene.

si, l'italia è un paese molto bello. e io non vedo l'ora di tornare negli stati uniti per un altro viaggio.
ti aspetto qua in abruzzo. :)

[beac]

218. Bene.

"Ci vediamo piu tardi." (to quote Knox's famous text ;) )

[demoleft]

219. no please - i prefer a "see you later"...

...or a ciao to any quote like that!

;)

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

221. Niente scuse per i tuoi connazionali

da un'italiana che vive negli USA :)

That being said, I have the fortune of being able to read both the U.S. and Italian press on this case and I do agree that the coverage in the U.S. of this case is certainly more favorable to Knox and making it seem like Italy has a crappy justice system (which it doesn't, unless your name is Berlusconi - but that is another topic altogether).

[demoleft]

222. hehe. agreed.

ciao a te, dalla costa abruzzese.

:)

[beac]

225. I am hoping my original phrase it Italian made it clear that I was apologizing

for the rudeness of my countrymen, not trying to excuse them. (I sometimes find "scusare" a difficult verb to use properly. I learned my Italian by living there rather than formal study.)

Di dove sei in Italia?

[axollot]

228. When I was little I learned to speak Italian since my Grandparents spoke it-

all the time around me, especially if it was something I shouldn't know about (barely remember any now haha). I know that the entire Italian justice system is not corrupt. I've seen the hard work done in Sicily by the judge who was sadly murdered later by the very criminals he was attempting to bring to justice. A friend of his carried on his work and put the first crack in the strong hold that had Sicily in a vice at one time.

No one should blame all Italian's or the entire Italian Justice system for this, that would be silly. I do think her being foreign and in a small old town did not help her from the beginning.

Cheers
Sandy

[beac]

254. Remember that two Italians (Guede has dual-citizenship)

were convicted along with Knox. It has nothing to do with her being foreign nor the size of the town. The main thing that hurt her from the beginning was her own suspicious behavior and subsequent lies.

I do hope the furor over this dies down in the American public soon. Knox has the right to appeal and she will, but all these calls to boycott Italy and demands that Hillary Clinton intervene just make us look ridiculous. As you rightly said, it would be silly to blame an entire country for the outcome of one trial.

Pace. ("Peace", as you may remember from your nonna/nonno. ;) )

[axollot]

260. I missed that Guede was convicted completely! I read the case @ time of murder

but then didn't follow it again till recently. I accept that there are things that are still unknown to me.
I know Ms Knox was very stupid in lying and changing her story to the police. On the other hand depending on circumstances people have given false confessions too! It's stupid regardless of the country, but it just doesnt mean guilt. (to clarify I know she didnt confess just saying jailed people say the damnedest things)!!

We do not know under what conditions her information was garnered. Some was through letters Knox sent to friends and family too. Certain things that really cause me to question - the crime scene was a huge mess, More DNA was found in and around the crime scene from Guede (it was one article I read that may need to be cross checked, still there was a lot of 1 male DNA in her bedroom). Since no one attempted to clean up the murder scene, it's pretty hard to have removed ones own DNA and not others in a scene of that magnitude. Knox, was a room-mate and still her DNA was only found in 2 easily plausible places but none in the bedroom where the murder happened.


If all 3 participated in the poor girls murder then they all obviously need to be in jail. It's just the evidence I've seen doesnt fit. I have serious doubts about how much Knox really played a roll or if she was getting "railroaded"

Cheers
Sandy

[sasquatch]

201. Oh please, the British press had her pegged as the perp from the beginning

Because she kissed her boyfriend outside of her apartment. Oh gee if that isn't the mark of a killer I don't know what is.

[axollot]

229. I agree with you on this post and I am angry! But..

...lots of things on DU make me angry and I disagree with many of our posters here but the object is to *not* get rude and nasty with each other. That can be hard to do when one is passionate about something but important to do all the same. If the **ass-hats in government can talk nice to each other, certainly we can ;) (**not all of our politicians are ass hats and many lately have had not used proper decorum expected of an elected offical).

I look forward to more posts from you if you stick to DU's rules of proper decorum on these boards.

Cheers
Sandy

[sasquatch]

248. Yeah, but its popular to attack the "ugly american" here right now

[dipsydoodle]

163. What an odd thing to say.

You're ok to say OJ was guilty , despite the jurers findings , but assume Knox's jurers to be at fault ?

Got issues with the jury system ?

[pnwmom]

30. Based on what? There was no physical evidence of Amanda, no DNA, in the

bedroom where the murder occurred. None of her boyfriend, either. How do you think they managed that?

Yeah, Amanda did leave DNA in Meredith's bathroom -- but it was Amanda's bathroom, too, since they were roommates!

OTOH, there was a great deal of physical evidence linking the unrelated man from the Ivory coast to the slaying, and a broken window in Meredith's room indicating that her attacker came in through the window.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Didn't they find her DNA on the knife?

Or were they lying about that?

[sasquatch]

35. That knife wasn't the murder weapon though

[Violet_Crumble]

37. According to who? n/t

[sasquatch]

40. Phorensics

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Are you trying to spell forensics? Also, who's claiming it wasn't the knife? n/t

[zerox]

50. Expert testimony at trial

according to Time.

"Bremner claims that a bloody print on the bed linens conveys the shape of the actual murder weapon and that the knife in question "doesn't match an outline of the knife on the bed." Additionally, Bremner says, expert testimony has already indicated that at least two of the wounds on Kercher's neck couldn't have been made by that particular blade. That aside, she points out, it's not surprising that Knox's DNA would be on its handle; she prepared dinner with Sollecito in his apartment."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

[Violet_Crumble]

53. Thanks. I figured it'd be someone paid by the defense making the claim...

Not exactly convincing stuff...

[zerox]

57. I don't believe Ms. Bremner in that article is Knox's attorney.

You obviously have had your mind made up on this issue for some time. The only experts you're going to get on this case are either going to be on the side of the defense or prosecution: they are the only ones to see the evidence first hand. Regardless, there are serious, serious problems with the "evidence" presented at this trial along with the supposed motives of the now convicted. The jury seems to have based this verdict more on tabloid hysteria than anything presented in court.

[AlphaCentauri]

62. What about the finger prints?

Police had been thought to be closing in on the killer after examining Ms Kercher’s diary and finding fingerprints on her mobile phones, one Italian and one English. The same fingerprints were reportedly also found in her bloodstained bedroom and on the front-door handle of the student house that she shared with three female friends.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2816366.ece

[zerox]

68. That is an old article, but the prints probably belong to Rudy Guede

a drifter with no known connection to Knox who was separately convicted at trial. As I recall, there were very few or no fingerprints of Knox's at the crime scene, despite the fact that she had lived with Kercher, leading the prosecution to speculate that she had somehow removed all of her own prints.

[pnwmom]

90. But they weren't fingerprints of Amanda or her boyfriend! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Yr the one who said it was expert testimony...

Which means it was testimony paid for by the defense. They're not going to pay for something that they can't have support their case...

And no, not being American, I haven't been following this with the preconcieved notions that you and others have, so you might want to revisit what you said :)

[zerox]

73. You are the one claiming to have followed this case in the international media.

The article, if you bothered to read it, cites multiple sources, some of whom are defense experts, some of whom are not.

[tonysam]

77. You follow it in the international media, you are reading bullshit

especially if the sources are tabloids.

[Violet_Crumble]

158. Sure, I'd be happy to describe the US media that way...

You do realise that for me the US media is part of the international media?

[Violet_Crumble]

154. Yeah, I've read about it there. You know for me international includes the US?

Just thought I'd mention that. And I did bother reading the article and nothing in it is anything but opinion and in no way constitutes proof...

[boppers]

112. Preconcieved notion: Innocence until proof of guilt.

It's kind of a dogma over here.

[Violet_Crumble]

159. Well, she was proven guilty in a court of law...

..isn't that how that dogma goes?

[boppers]

164. Depends on the court.

Some courts are fair, some are not.

[pnwmom]

64. Exactly. It wouldn't be surprising for Amanda's DNA to be anywhere either

in her apartment or her boyfriend's.

The significant thing is that both their DNA was ABSENT from the murdered girl's bedroom -- which was the scene of the murder.

[AlphaCentauri]

69. DNA from Amanda Knox's boyfriend has been found on the bra

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Raffaele-Sollecito-DNA-Found-On-Bra/Article/20080121300224?lid=ARTICLE_1300224_Meredith%20Kercher%20Murder%20Raffaele%20Sollecito%20DNA%20Found%20On%20Bra&lpos=Home_0

[zerox]

74. First, Knox and Kercher were roommates,

so DNA on items in the room is not overly surprising. Additionally:

Contamination was also likely with the DNA found on Kercher's bra clasp, Bremner says, pointing out that the clasp wasn't collected until more than two months after the murder and that throughout film footage of the crime scene investigation it periodically changes location — suggesting it was picked up and moved several times.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html#ixzz0Ym2iVgQI

[AlphaCentauri]

79. was the DNA coming from a solid or liquid material, like hair or saliva, skin or sperm?

if it was pick months after then the bra would be impregnated

[pnwmom]

89. 46 days after the murder, after everything had been thoroughly tossed around

the apartment -- evidence contaminated like that should never have been admissible.

[medeak]

116. knife was a joke

was more than inch shorter than murder weapon

[Raston]

52. And people wonder why I get so mad..

"Wasn't her DNA found on the knife?" (facepalm)

Here, educate yourself.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

63. Welcome to DU, Raston!

Please ignore the stupid insults. It happens here sometimes, unfortunately.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Didn't you read their posts in this thread? They've been really abusive...

Will you be needing me to show you the posts or can you find them for yrself?

[pnwmom]

138. What do you mean "their posts." Raston is one person, a new person, and

hadn't said anything abusive to you. The first insult came from your direction.

[Violet_Crumble]

152. What I mean is go back and read their posts. They were totally abusive...

I couldn't give a shit if they've been here five hours or five years - they were abusive and nasty and for you not to have noticed that is very bizarre. And if me pointing out to them after seeing a barrage of abusive and nasty posts in this thread that their posts come across like they've got some emotional issues is yr idea of insulting, I guess you must be incredibly sensitive to think that's insulting while ignoring all their insults...

[pnwmom]

58. Not in a quantity that would be admissible here. And the knife itself

didn't match the wounds.

OTOH, again, this was Amanda's apartment. It wouldn't be surprising to find her DNA anywhere in the kitchen or the bathroom. The most significant thing is that none of her DNA, nor her boyfriend's, was found in the crime scene -- Meredith's bedroom.

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Here being the US? So what?

Where are you getting all these claims from? the defense?

[pnwmom]

91. Where are you getting your point of view? The prosecutors who made up their

mind about Amanda before even knowing that a third party was involved?

[Violet_Crumble]

160. My point of view is I haven't been caught up in the media hysteria...

I don't know if she's any more guilty or innocent than others convicted of crimes, and I'm being really turned off by people trying to shove what they claim are facts down the throats of anyone who's not complying with the poor little innocent American young pretty white girl let's point the finger at some black people who aren't americans! mindset. I could understand family members or friends being so upset about her being convicted, but when it comes to complete strangers, I have less sympathy and tend to think they've been suckered by the media...

[sabrina 1]

139. I wouldn't use the justice system here to try to make

anyone else's justice system look bad. There are dozens of insane prosecutors here who collaborate with police and throw innocent people, mostly poor and minorities, in jail on a regular basis.

Italy, eg, does not have the death penalty.

Today, in Texas, another proud moment for the US system of justice occurred when a retarded man was executed. A few months ago, an innocent man was executed in TExas. A US Supreme Court justice declared that regardless of evidence of innocence surfacing after a conviction and death sentence, no conviction should be overturned if the process was legal, nor should the death sentence be lifted. Iow, too bad for you in the US, if you are innocent and prove it AFTER a conviction.

If you want to discuss the merits of this case, I would do so without attempting to use the US system of 'justice' as any kind of example of how things ought to be done.

We are also the country that kidnapped citizens of other countries, held them in Guantanamo without charge, tortured them and then released them without any apology to anyone after years of illegal incarceration. Not to mention that they were refused access to any court and could not speak with their attorneys privately.

This country railing against the Italian system of justice will not help this woman's case in the slightest. It will merely evoke laughter from around the globe at the sheer arrogance of Americans considering the lack of moral authority we have as a result of our torture program and of our own well-known inhumanitarian prison system not to mention our practice of using the barbaric death penalty.

Watching TV tonight, you would never know there was a victim in this case. Nor would you know there might be another side to this story. It was completely one-sided, with most of the hosts doing exactly what they accused Italy of doing, showing prejudice because this was an American.

She may or may not be guilty, but those defending her will not help her case anywhere in the world by claiming 'if that prosecutor were in the US etc. etc.' The world knows that our top law enforcement official Gonzales and his corrupt DOJ encouraged torture of innocent detainees among other things.

As for whether or not this government will try to intervene on her behalf, I am sure the US will be reminded of how often they ignored similar requests from other countries asking for the handing over of their tortured citizens.

I guess it has not sunk in, at least to the talking heads on TV, just how much respect this country lost over the past eight years and the role they themselves played in that. It was strange tonight to see some of these, probably war and torture supporters, try to claim that our system of justice is superior in any way.

[shellgame26]

107. actually

the police said they found Knox's bloody fingerprints.

[CTyankee]

38. Why? What evidence convinced you of that? nt

[TorchTheWitch]

55. so do I

I have doubts that it was her that killed the roommate but I definitely think she was involved.

[sasquatch]

25. Time to send in the marines, although I'm a 4F I'll be willing to volunteer my service

[Violet_Crumble]

39. That was sarcasm, right?

If not, I'm gobsmacked at the arrogance of Americans...

[Swede Atlanta]

47. A travesty....

Based on what I heard, all the prosecutors had was circumstantial evidence but not a single shred of forensic or direct evidence. There was none of Amanda's DNA in the room where supposedly a vicious physical struggle took place.

I hope she pursues an appeal and that the appeal is successful. If not I don't think Italy or any Italian products will be long on my vacation or shopping lists.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. What I find so strange about Americans is...

...that in their own country, Americans are convicted of crimes they didn't commit on a regular basis, but (and this is making the assumption that Knox is innocent, which I don't happen to believe is the case) if an American has the same thing happen to them in any other country, then people who don't show any interest in the many unfair convictions inside the US, suddenly appear out of nowhere to berate Italy's justice system. And I suspect it helps with the obvious saturation media coverage in the US that this Knox is a young attractive white American woman...

[AlphaCentauri]

78. The US system doesn't work like it should in many cases

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3859117

[JI7]

87. and in the US it's usually minority men

[beac]

92. Nice to see there is at least one other person on this thread who isn't

buying the "poor little America's sweetheart" boo-hooing over the conviction of Knox. There is PLENTY of evidence that she was involved and I notice no one seems the least bit concerned about sweet little Amanda's fingering of a TOTALLY innocent man who had been her boss and friend and who lost his business after her FALSE accusation. Knox should rot in jail for that alone.

And of course I agree with you that the slandering of the Italian justice system on this thread is equally appalling.

[sabrina 1]

141. It's amazing, isn't it? To see this arrogance

as if our own justice system was not about the worst in the civilized world. And there's no need to understand the case at all here, just slam the Italians. After all she looks like a sweet little American girl so she cannot be guilty of anything.

I don't know if she is or not, but as you said, she had no problem accusing someone else of a horrendous crime and she lied to the police after the murder which she had to admit later on.

Looks like Bush wasn't the only one who felt no one had the right to try an American no matter how many crimes they committed.

[beac]

144. The American press coverage has practically been an arm of her defense team, so

I suppose I can see why some people MIGHT be buying the "she's a poor little victim" storyline (though how anyone can excuse her falsely accusing an innocent man is beyond me), but the wholesale bashing of an entire country and its justice system is completely ridiculous.

[sabrina 1]

145. Yes, I saw that tonight. If you watched it you would swear

she comes from a family with some influence. Everyone was afraid to even point out that she actually did lie to the police and change her story not to mention accusing an innocent man of the crime. All I heard was how bad the Italian system must be.

I wonder if Americans were as outraged when the US killed one of Italy's patriots in Iraq, right after he had rescued an Italian reporter from terrorists. They shot her also. Many believed, including many Italians, that she was the target as the Bush administration didn't want her telling her story. Even the evil Berlusconi understood what a travesty that was.

But here in the US, it was barely mentioned, the injustice of firing on a just released hostage and the killing of an Italian hero.

The coverage of this story reminds me of the coverage of the last 'missing white girl' whose family also had influence. I hope we are not going to see this night and day for the next two years.

[beac]

147. I'll bet you most people on this thread never even heard of that case.

I was in Italy right after it happened and first read about it in the Italian press, but I'll bet it got a lot less play over here than little Miss Knox has gotten.

Reuters article here:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14321746.htm

Unbelievable how snide and nasty the soldier was about blaming the driver and even the kidnapping victim.

[jenniferj]

174. The victims family have not doubts that justice has been served..

but then they are just British people so they don't matter here..Meredith Kreacher is unimportant...
What drew the suspision of the Italian police was Amanda Knox's behaviour, that is often what crime investigators look at..
In the UK there have been a number of cases where the murderer was caught after behaving oddly at a public press conference or being interviewed on tv...According to the British press she kept changing her story, was performing cartwheels at the police station etc..She was not behaving right for someone whose flatmate had been murdered and it raised the flag of suspision...Oh and she blamed somebody else....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8396433.stm

[Blasphemer]

122. Interesting, ain't it? nt

[ShortnFiery]

179. Bravo! So very well put. :-) eom

[davidpdx]

48. My feeling is that she got railroaded

The media has been reporting that jurors have been permitted to read news accounts through out the trial and discuss the verdict without any consequence. Knox was not permitted to bring the people she wanted to examine evidence. And The Italian authorities have harrassed both her and her family.

It's clear they have a very corrupt system.

[beac]

93. Knox accused an INNOCENT man of the crime, claiming she "heard" him doing the murder.

If he hadn't been able to prove he was no where near the house, he might be in jail today instead of her. But NO ONE seems to cae about that poor man, just the little sociopath Knox.

[boppers]

114. She was being grilled to provide a name.

She provided one.

Thank god for a lone man who was arguing politics with the guy, who provided an alibi.

[beac]

118. He was very lucky. And there is no excuse for what Knox did. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

119. yep the name of a black man

disgusting, in the US it happens a lot, that black men are accused by some loonies.

[beac]

149. Sadly, fingering a random black man in Italy is just as good a ploy as it would be here.

Much as I love Italy, racism is alive and well there too--- though I did see more interracial couples in Perugia than in any other Italian city or town I've visited.

[sabrina 1]

143. She provided the name of an innocent man to direct attention

away from herself. There is no excuse for that.

[sasquatch]

210. Or to just get a crazy ass interrogator to leave her alone after 14 hours

[sabrina 1]

223. The way to get a crazy ass interogator off your back

is to tell the truth. As all the other room-mates who lived in the house did. Why were they not stressed out and changing their stories every time they were asked a question? None of them had any complaints about the way they were treated by the police and all were questioned.

As far as ruining the life of another person just because you are stressed out, there is no excuse for that and the only people willing to excuse are being willfully blind.

This woman lied, to her mother even when she said she had called the police. And every time she was caught in a lie, she made some excuse for doing so. After several days of these lies, she drew attention to herself.

And, there was lots of evidence that she lied, cell phone records, computer records not to mention the mixture of her blood with the dead girl's blood in four different places in the house.

I wasn't sure what to think about this case, certainly no one wants an innocent person to be convicted. The US press offered only very biased coverage and little if any coverage of the actual evidence in the case. It didn't take long to find it though and a lot of the questions I had have been answered. At this point, if I were on the jury, considering the evidence and even excluding the questionable evidence, and being aware of some of the problems with the prosecution's case, I would have to say I believe she was in the house that night and at the very least, attempted to cover up that fact and most likely participated in the crime.

[struggle4progress]

236. Or perhaps to distract attention from Guede?

[iandhr]

59. Italian Jury Convicts U.S. Student of Murder

Source: NY TIMES

PERUGIA, Italy — After one of the most closely-watched trials in Italy, an American college student and her former Italian boyfriend were found guilty of murdering her housemate two years ago in this picturesque university town.


The case gripped Italy and drew intense international media attention at a pair of young people who seemed unlikely killers with no clear motive or violent pasts.

Prosecutors had accused Amanda Knox, 22, then a student at the University of Washington, and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 25, of killing her housemate, Meredith Kercher, 21, of Surrey, England, in November 2007 after a scuffle escalated into their coercing her into a sex game.

Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were both found guilty on all the major charges by the jury, in a verdict that was read in court at about midnight. Ms. Knox was sentenced to 26 years in prison and Mr. Sollecito to 25 years. Prosecutors had been seeking life sentences, Italy’s stiffest sentence, for both.

A third defendant, Rudy Guede, 22, is already serving a 30-year sentence for sexual assault and murder, although the judge ruled that he was one of three assailants. All three deny wrongdoing. Mr. Guede’s appeal trial is underway.

In addition to the murder charges, an eight-member jury, after a year-long trial and more than 12 hours of deliberation, also found Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito guilty of unlawful possession of a weapon, (a knife that prosecutors claim was involved in the murder), of staging a crime scene and of burglary. Prosecutors contended that the three had faked a burglary to cover up the murder.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/world/europe/05italy.html?hp

[ManiacJoe]

60. Link to other active thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4171404&mesg_id=4171404

[CTyankee]

61. A travesty of justice. I hope this girl is released and can return to her family

after an appeal...

I am appalled...and I love Italy and visit there almost every year. I cannot believe that this happened in Perugia, a city I visited and loved so much...

My deepest sadness for Amanda's family... I can't imagine her parent's sorrow right now. This kid has been railroaded and she is innocent.

[beac]

95. Why aren't you equally "appalled" about the innocent man Knox claimed to have "heard" murdering

Kercher? He was able to prove he was elsewhere, but his arrest and the aftermath caused him to lose his business and his good name. Where's the sympathy for the man whose life Knox DESTROYED trying to shift the blame off of herself?

[Blasphemer]

121. That little tidbit is why I don't believe she is innocent

How very convenient that it was a Congolese man who she decided to blame. That raised a million "Susan Smith" red flags for me. Perhaps she is innocent and if so, I hope they are able to prove it during the appeals process. I hope this man is able to get some justice as well. Apparently he is suing her.

[jenniferj]

175. It was her behaviour at the police station that first raised the

flags and her changing stories...I said on this thread already..the parents would be claiming she was innocent no matter where she was convicted..I know many Americans believe only American courts can really serve justice and everyone else must be wrong if an American is involved.

[Julius Civitatus]

181. Don't forget she had a grudge against the black man she falsely accused

To make matters worse, the African man she falsely accused rejected her job application as a waitress in his bar.

As a result of the false accusation, this man lost his business.


For all those claiming Knox was "totally innocent", i strongly advise you to read any, just ANY coverage of the case from ANY country other than the US. The American media have been ridiculous on their coverage of this case, claiming she's "too pretty" to commit this case, and taking her parents' comments at face value (and as the only "evidence").

Please read about the evidence, scientific, circumstantial and witness accounts about this case. I think there's sufficient reason to believe she was, at the very least, a major accomplice in the murder of Ms. Kercher.

[ShortnFiery]

70. Between TWO Judges and EIGHT Jurors, I have no reason to believe Justice was NOT served.

With all the problems we have with the international community, the last thing us UGLY AMERICANS need to do is attack the "Italian Justice System."

Let it go or continue to drag down "America/Americans' image as a arrogant know-it-all Empire. :thumbsdown:

[tonysam]

75. Oh, for cryin' out loud. We getcha. You don't care what happens to this

person. A lot of us do, and we care about injustice no matter WHERE it is or WHO is involved.

[liberation]

82. I don't think you care about justice

you just don't like this verdict that is all.

[zerox]

76. Look at the evidence in this case before attacking others as "UGLY AMERICANS".

The case here relied on little other than the speculation of prosecutors and tabloids. If this happened in the US, people would have the right to be similarly angry.

[liberation]

84. Wow, I guess some Americans feel entitled to a "get free card" in Italy whenever they want to

How dare those Italians have their own laws, what is this world coming to when beautiful American upright kids can't get away with murder?

Ahhh, the good old days:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/mar1999/ital-m06.shtml

[zerox]

86. Way to completely misrepresent my post.

As I said, this verdict would have been unacceptable regardless of where it occurred. The problems with the prosecution's case are staggering.

Ashby did end up serving some prison time, btw, though he should have been in longer.

[beac]

97. If she was innocant, WHY did Knox try and pin the murder on her former boss and friend

by FALSELY claiming she "heard" him commit the murder. Knox should rot in jail for that alone.

[zerox]

100. She was interrogated for 14 straight hours.

While it was obviously not the right thing to do, virtually anyone will eventually crack under such a situation.

[beac]

102. There is NO excuse for what she did. None. n/t

[zerox]

103. Regardless, it doesn't amount to murder.

The case against her was extraordinarily flimsy, to say the least.

[beac]

106. I'm afraid we don't agree on that point either.

Knox's behavior and actions at the crime scene and after were NOT those of an innocent person.

[sasquatch]

203. Oh, and you know what the behaviors are

[shellgame26]

111. You have to admit

She changed her story at least 4 times.

[shellgame26]

153. in the last version of her story

She blamed the Italian boyfriend of raping and killing Kercher then going back to the flat where knox was sleeping and using her fingers (while she was still asleep) to plant fingerprints. I'm sorry but she changed her story way too many times. This girl is nothing but a beautiful sociopath.

[Violet_Crumble]

161. Sorry, but there's a lot of Ugly Americanism going on...

The arrogance is absolutely disgusting. Some Americans need to learn that Americans don't get a free pass in other countries and that the US media hypsteria over the case doesn't constitute *evidence*...

[pnwmom]

94. The judges were part of the eight jurors, and a unanimous vote wasn't required

to convict -- just 5 out of 8.

Do you think it was acceptable for the prosecutors to be able to show to the jurors a make-believe animated video of the defendants carrying out the murder, interspersed with actual images of the dead girl's body? Do you think it was okay for the prosecutors to even put made-up dialogue into the defendants' mouths as part of their summation to the jury?

[kelly1mm]

117. If that is allowed by the Italian version of FRCP - yes. nt

[sasquatch]

123. +1

[beac]

96. "Between TWO Judges and EIGHT Jurors, I have no reason to believe Justice was NOT served."

I couldn't agrre more.

The "ugly American" is all over this thread.


(Edited to make it clear I was agreeing w/you and not the post just above mine)

[beac]

98. dupe

[tonysam]

126. Research the case, watch the 48 Hours episode, and your mind

will change.

I couldn't give a shit less about the "Ugly American." This was an injustice.

[beac]

140. I have been following the case in the Italian press (I speak Italian)

as well as the international press since the day it happened b/c we had JUST been in Perugia prior to the murder.

The coverage in the American press has been VERY biased in favor of Knox.

Perhaps if you'd read or seen more than American TV programs, you would have a different view of Knox, her ever-changing stories, her sociopathic behavior and her attempt to shift the blame onto an innocent man.

[pnwmom]

137. This was a modern day witch hunt. The fact that a jury rendered a verdict

does not mean automatically that justice has been served.

In this case there was no physical evidence linking the girl or her boyfriend to the murder scene -- no footprints, fingerprints, or DNA. And the judge prevented the defense from introducing exculpatory evidence.

Justice was NOT served.

[beac]

142. Are you aware that she tried to implicate an INNOCENT man?

Knox is no victim.

[pnwmom]

146. Are you aware that that happened after more than 50 hours of questioning

by the police and with no attorney present, and that she had only been in the country a couple weeks and barely spoke Italian?

She was exhausted and broke down after days of questioning. And she made a serious mistake. But that doesn't make her a murderer. Another man's DNA was found in and outside Meredith's body, and in her room, along with numerous footprints (the existence of which the police withheld from the defense for a year and a half). His was the only DNA found in Meredith's room. And Meredith's window had been broken from the outside, so that's how he entered her room. His conviction makes sense -- but not that of Amanda and her boyfriend.

[beac]

148. There is NO excuse for what she did. None.

If she had made a false confession, that'd be one thing, but she concocted an elaborate story about hearing Kercher murdered and named a man she knew damn well had NOTHING to do with it.

[pnwmom]

150. Let's assume you're right about that. (Although the "story" she told was fed to

her by the police.)

That isn't a reason to charge her with murder when ALL the physical evidence points to another person.

[beac]

151. It was Knox's own BIZARRE behavior and LIES that led the police to suspect her

long before Guede came into the picture. Funny how not a SINGLE person in this thread has expressed any sympathy or concern for Raphaele Sollecito. This is just one of the reasons I suspect it is the biased spin of the American press, who have also ignored Sollecito, that is fueling the outrage over Knox's conviction.

Look, we clearly aren't going to agree on Knox's guilt. I've followed the case and believe her to be guilty. You do not. I don't imagine either of us are going to understand how the other could look at Knox's behavior and actions and come to the conclusions we have. Suffice it to day I won't lose any sleep over Amanda Knox.


(edited for typo)

[Julius Civitatus]

211. False! She was questioned for 14 HOURS

The 50 hour grilling lie keeps popping up in these forums. She was held by the police for 14 hours, and interrogated in 2 hour periods (not grilled for 50 hors straight). Desperate falsehoods from people that can't accept the evidence and her own conflicting statements indicted Amanda Knox.

Please read about the case from neutral reports, like the BBC or The Times.

[western mass]

124. Riiiight...because judges & jurys are never wrong.

Incompetent, over-zealous prosecutors are universal. This one happens to be Italian. The "ugly american" is just the sort of lame argument you throw out when you got nothing better.

[tonysam]

128. The prosecutor is an absolute crackpot, no two ways about it.

The case was a classic case of trial by tabloid. Period.

[oberliner]

83. Family of Amanda Knox vows to continue the fight

Friends and relatives of Amanda Knox squeezed onto a sofa in a small West Seattle living room, face to face with a crush of news cameras and a television delivering devastating news. When they dried their eyes and collected themselves, they vowed to fight on.

"Oh God, no!" cried her uncle, Mick Huff, as CNN relayed the Italian jury's verdict. Knox was guilty on all counts of the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kercher, more than two years ago.

The verdict was not unexpected among those at Huff's home Friday - including Knox's grandmother, Elisabeth Huff, and four friends from the University of Washington. They said they long ago lost faith in the Italian justice system, but held out hope for a favorable verdict anyway.

Huff's wife, Janet, said the family would gird itself for a yearslong appeal, and that they'd likely sell their one-story gray bungalow to help pay her niece's legal fees.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010428614_apwastudentslainknoxfamily2ndldwritethru.html

[medeak]

88. hope to gawd they do....

am so torn up about this...guess the only one

[beac]

99. What about the man whose life Knox RUINED with a false accusation that she "heard"

him committing the murder? Knox is no innocent victim.

[medeak]

101. her parents now have warrants pending against them

for libel as relayed that their daughter was hit several times in interrogation long ago.. Unfortunately they didn't immediately file charges and Italy beat them to the punch. I love Italy...lived there.. was there again this year...but after this am so sick don't think I can return.

[beac]

104. What about the dozens of Italians who died in

Iraq because the American president LIED us into an unnecessary war? Should all Italians boycott America because we elected a war criminal?

At least she is not facing a barbaric system with the death penalty.

[medeak]

105. buh bye n/t

[beac]

108. I lived in Italy too and it makes me sick to see people like you

damning the whole country for what you perceve to be ONE miscarriage of justice.

Too bad you chose "buh bye" instead of actually trying to defend, or better yet RETHINK, your position.

Italy won't miss you.

[JI7]

129. why ? he has a good point there, look at what our country has done

if you are so angry with italy over this case, how can you stand to live here ?

i'm not saying you can't criticize their justice system but to go so far to say you may not want to go there because of this.

[tonysam]

132. You know what, nobody cares about that phony argument

Injustice is injustice, no matter where it happens.

[JI7]

133. the argument wasover that poster saying they wont go to italy because of this

not whether there was injustice.

if that's the case how the fuck would anyone stay here considering our justice system . especially gitmo.

[medeak]

193. it was a gut reaction in heat of the moment

not to be taken seriously... practically live in Italy

[JI7]

130. why ? he has a good point there, look at what our country has done

if you are so angry with italy over this case, how can you stand to live here ?

i'm not saying you can't criticize their justice system but to go so far to say you may not want to go there because of this.

[fujiyama]

178. The Italians that died in Iraq

are Berlusconi's fault. No one forced him to follow Bush and Blair.

[medeak]

110. is there a fund to contribute to her appeal?

anyone know?

[medeak]

113. Amanda Knox defense fund

http://www.amandadefensefund.org/Donations.html

[AlphaCentauri]

120. her parents are wealthy, why would they need more money?

[tonysam]

131. 48 Hours report--it will be updated tomorrow night

American Girl, Italian Nightmare

[medeak]

134. they are selling house n/t

[medeak]

136. besides WA senator condemning the verdict tonight

The Knox family already has spent more than $1 million in hiring a legal team and keeping a family member in Italy at all times to visit Amanda.

[freeplessinseattle]

165. not all that wealthy, especially after all this BS

"the parents of Amanda Knox — a schoolteacher and an out-of-work retail accounts manager who’ve maxed out their retirement funds and mortgaged their home to pay for a legal defense..

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/amanda-knox-revisited/?scp=1&sq=egan%20knox&st=cse

[medeak]

189. thank you

couldn't find a damn thing on the net that said they were wealthy...obviously why now.

[dipsydoodle]

166. Aside from anything else

someone needs to cough up the Euro 4.4 million in fines.

The Kerchers were awarded a total of 4.4 million euros in compensation, but Mr Kercher said the figure was "symbolic" and no amount could make up for their loss.

He said the sum was to reflect the "severity and gravity of the case".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8396826.stm

[medeak]

194. who pays the 4.4 million euros?

is it divided between 3 defendants?

[dipsydoodle]

205. Not sure

More likely either just these two or maybe just Knox. :shrug:

Some details here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8396826.stm

Our TV news seems to assume/implies that its all down to Knox when the refer tpo the financial penalty. Whatever - the fund that is mentioned elsewhere here to help with her appeal will be exposed to being stripped of the financial penalty first - think so anyway.

The Prosecutor's report , which must be published with 90 days , will make everything clear including why she got the extra year - she got 26 years and the guy 25.

[dipsydoodle]

167. Duplicate.

Firefox screwed up.

[medeak]

188. please provide link as can't find anywhere n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

197. From the BBC

The case was media gold from the start: a pretty young victim, brutally murdered in mysterious circumstances, whose murderers were both wealthy and attractive.

http://sain.sunsite.utk.edu/cgi-bin/textonly/0124/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8391199.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8391199.stm

[medeak]

230. guess the bbc got it wrong then

n/t

[medeak]

135. family says judge and jury could not look them in the eyes

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKnox/amanda-knoxs-family-judge-eye/story?id=9255726

[demoleft]

170. it's the fashion of these late years to say the Italian courts are always wrong...

...when they pronounce the word "guilty".
our Premier in italy here is a champion in that.

and of course experts, police, the State - everybody had fun in judging the evidences against the pair now declared guilty.
the song is always the same.

the international press takes any chance to attack italian institutions and our system. with some reasons sometimes, some other to just make a fuss for political reason.

americans went on having some trust in their system after the OJ case and still will have after the Texas execution of that man recently.
as an italian, i trust my judiciary system after the knox case.

i would not want that the last word on this was that meredith committed suicide in there.
anyway let's wait for the appeal.

[tonysam]

176. Good grief

EVERYBODY knows Meredith Kerchner didn't commit suicide, for God's sake. It was Rudy Guede who did it. All of the evidence points to Rudy and Rudy alone.

I hate to think you believe all of the tabloid bullshit that convicted Amanda and her former boyfriend.

[demoleft]

182. a court declared her guilty, not the tabloids. it still makes a difference, doesn't it? n/t

[sasquatch]

200. On unsubstained theories and personal attacks though

[demoleft]

214. of course. there's a huge national plot against knox. this is the song here, apparently. n/t

[Julius Civitatus]

184. You are very misinformed

All evidence points to several people, not Guede alone. And there was plenty of DNA and circumstantial evidence placing Sollecito and Knox in the scene of the crime. Furthermore, evidence points at Knox and Sollecito tampering with the scene of the crime. Please find more info in non-biased media; you'll be surprised.

[sasquatch]

199. Amanda had zero DNA at the crime scene

That's unheard in a violent struggle.

[demoleft]

171. ah, and +1 rec too. the discussions here are worth reading. n/t

[jenniferj]

172. The British Press....

......now this is the story from a media that doesn't care that Amanda Knox is an American....Personally if this trial had been moved to London and Amanda Knox had been convicted at The Old Bailey,(the victim was British) her family would be still screaming mis-carriage of justice, anti-Americanism etc...Blaming the British Press etc...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6945568.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6945577.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6945607.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/2009/12/04/amanada-knox-found-guilty-of-meredith-kercher-murder-115875-21873938/

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2759688/Amanda-Knoxs-parents-thought-she-was-an-all-American-diligent-scholar.html

[tonysam]

177. So you think she was guilty?

I can't believe people actually believe the utter horseshit from a crooked prosecutor who didn't have a case at all against her.

[jenniferj]

180. Yes... She changed her story, she blamed someone else

who fortunately had a watertight alibi, I don't care how long the kept her for, She lied which does not convince me she was innocent.
The red flags went up for the Italian police because of her behaviour in the police station, while they were interviewing her boyfriend. I haven't seen any of the footage from the American media about how innocent Amanda Knox is a the victim, until now...I don't think Italian courts are incompetant or somehow interested in making a point by sending an American to jail.. Yet the American media are now painting it as a case of Anti-Americanism...Too call an Italian prosecutor crooked is an easy and insulting stereotype. I have however read the British press today and the victim was British so they have an interest and don't care that Amanda Knox is a American and therefore somehow entitled to different justice to anyone else charged with murder in Italy..I think her family would have screamed injustice no matter where she was convicted..In the meantime
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1233281/Amanda-Knox-Italian-boyfriend-GUILTY-NOT-GUILTY-murdering-Meredith-Kercher.html

It seems when it comes to ugly Americans there is not distinction between those on the left and the right of politics, the entitlement is the same and to those that don't want to visit Italy again.. please don't...

[Julius Civitatus]

183. The "conspiracy" argument doesn't fly, sorry

I'm not sure if Knox drove the knife herself, but she sure was an accomplice. The evidence, scientific and circumstantial, was overwhelming not matter if the trail took place in Italy, the US, or Antarctica.

Among some things I learned from reading IN DETAIL about the evidence presented in this case:

• Knox and Sollecito changed their story numerious times, and even incriminated each other.
  
  
• Knox blamed an innocent African man for the murder. He happened to be her former boss, who just fired her from a waitressing job. This man went to jail and lost his business as a consequence of Amanda Knox's false accusations.
  
  
• There was DNA evidence of Knox, Sollecito, and Guede in Kercher's underwear.
  
  
• There was DNA evidence of Knox, Sollecito, and Guede in Kercher's bedroom.
  
  
• There was DNA evidence of Knox, Sollecito, and Guede in the bathroom.
  
  
• There were bloody footprints of Knox and Sollecito in the bathroom.
  
  
• There was DNA evidence of Knox in a knife, that had Kercher's blood in the blade.
  
  
• There was evidence that the scene of the crime was tampered with (bleached).
  
  
• When the policy first arrived, they found Knox and Sollecito with a mop and bucket in the scene of the crime.
  
  
• Witnesses saw Knox purchasing 2 bottles of bleach in the corner store the morning of the crime.
  
  
• There's evidence that someone tried to create a fake "breaking and entrance" scenario, but the window was broken from the wrong side (pointing to someone breaking the window from the inside).
  
  
• The knife with Knox and Kercher's DNA was found at Sollecito's residence.
  
  
• That knife had been tampered with to remove DNA (bleached).
  
  
• When brought to testify at the police department, Knox's behavior was bizarre: cartwheels, laughter, jokes with Sollecito.

I could go on.

Knox didn't seem to be no "innocent angel". Sorry for those that are so convinced.

[sasquatch]

204. I'm sorry but that is all wrong

There was no evidence of DNA of Knox or her boyfriend at the crime scene or on the victim. The witnesses never came forward till later and there story was unverified. The knife that was found was not the murder weapon and only had Knox's DNA because she used it for cooking. There were no cartwheels at the police station, it was a tabloid story. Knox and Soletico didn't have a mop and bucket at the crime scene, that was another tabloid lie. The footprints couldn't be proven to be Knox's or her boyfriends.

You could go on, but you would be lieing.

[Julius Civitatus]

207. You are quoting the bizarre claims of Amanda's defense

... Which basically tried to make all evidence unreliable, all witnesses interested in media attention, and the Italian system corrupt.
It baffles me that in the face of such a mountain of evidence, some still believe she had nothing to with it.
It baffles me that Amanda's supporters would just claim the entire country of Italy was out to get this "innocent American girl".
Well, two different judges and 8 jurors thought there was enough proof to convict her.

Calling people "liars" won't make the fact that she was deeply involved in this murder go away. I have only listed evidence presented against her in the trial. Claiming it was all made up by tabloids is ridiculous and shows how much in denial people can get.

[sasquatch]

232. You don't need a unanamous verdict for a conviction

Also Judges normally stay out of cases and just go with the verdict.

[beac]

216. Knox and Sollecito's footprints in blood were found by Luminol AND were proved

to be theirs (linked elsewhere in this thread.) You may not AGREE with the experts testimony, but it exists.


The cartwheels/backbends/yoga DID happen and Knox admitted it in an interview with a blog that has been one of her biggest cheerleaders. She claims the Italian policeman ASKED what kinds of thing she could do after seeing her "stretch", but she ADMITS she did them:
"He asked why she was so good at stretching and she explained she had been doing gymnastic when she was younger. So he asked her if she could do the other things, the cartwheel, the split, the bridge and she showed him."
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/amanda-knox-finally-admits.html

She later TESTIFIED to this in court, claiming it was a way of "confront(ing) a tragedy":

FM: All right. We heard, and you gave testimony on this point, about your
behavior in the Questura, the cartwheel, the gymnastics, the stretching and
so forth.

AK: Yes.

FM: According to you, was this behavior appropriate, a normal behavior faced
with such a misfortune, or was this something special?

AK: According to me, each person confronts a tragedy in their own way, and I am
used to trying to find normality, at least my own normality, in situations
of difficulty. This is my way of feeling more secure, because I was feeling
really, really, really scared of what had happened, very shocked.
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165



Sollecito mentioned the mop and bucket in a letter he wrote to his father shortly after his arrest that was released to an Italian news site:

Appena arrivati in casa ho riposto il mocio nell’ingresso e mi sono diretto nelle altre stanze per vedere che diavolo era successo. Quei momenti li ricordo bene perché ero agitato e allarmato. Mi sembra di aver visto che Amanda prendeva il secchio del mocio e lo portava in un’altra stanza. http://quotidianonet.ilsole24ore.com/cronaca/2007/12/08/53233-amanda_meredith.shtml

Translation: "As soon as we arrived in the house I put aside the mop in the entrance and I directed myself towards the other rooms in order to see what the devil had happened. Those moments I remember well because I was shaken and alarmed. I seem to have seen that Amanda had taken the mop bucket and it carried it in to another room."


CLEARLY, the Knox family got their money's worth from their High-priced PR firm, but PLEASE don't go around making "tabloid" claims when you obviously don't know what Knox and Sollecito have admitted to IN THEIR OWN WORDS and ON THE RECORD.

[sasquatch]

231. It doesn't matter, people deal with things differently

I don't know about that letter because its from an Italian paper and those guys have lied like hell throughout the paper. I just know every prosecuter in the US has said this case is bullshit and these are Americans prosecuters and they think everyone is guilty.

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sasquatch]

241. But it doesn't say she was mopping, just that it was there

[beac]

251. Look, you really are getting tiresome.

First, you say that the mop didn't exist and was only a "tabloid rumor." Then, when I prove to you that it did exist, you act like there is nothing odd about a freshly-used mop and bucket in the possession of suspects at a crime scene that was later proved to have been freshly cleaned.

Basta. You clearly won't admit that I have proved your assertions incorrect time and again, so I can't see wasting anymore of my time presenting you with facts that contradict your myopic view of the case. So, basta. Enough.

[fakename]

185. Sorry, she did it

I registered simply to reply to this thread, such are some of the misconceptions contained within. I'm not American and I'm not Italian (although I do have signiificant links to Italy, none of them financial or political before I get called on motive). What I am is an impartial bystander who has been party to the developments in the police enquiry before the media have been (and on a far depper level) and who has, you know, actually been in Italy to see this apparent media storm.

Talk of corruption in this particular Italian process is unfounded and fueled by ignorance or, worse, a superiority complex over other cultures. This enquiry was led by homicide. They brought charges against Ms Knox because they believed her to be guilty, it is as simple as that. After then it is then the prosecutors job to secure a conviction and for the court to decide. Exactly the same as everywhere else then. There was no corruption here, homicide do not deal in politics - they catch murderers. Quite the courts motive for prosecuting two 'innocents' is beyond me.

As for Italian media predujicing the case...

I'm literally just back from Italy - I spend a LOT of time there. Coverage of the case has been limited - a thrity second slot at the end of the lunchtime and evening news. When the coverage has been longer it is because a member of Ms Knox's family or team of lawyers are giving interviews. There has hardly been a peep from the prosecution (except in retaliation to accusations and I believe everyone is entitled to that), the police certainly haven't been on the TV and, in an act of complete dignity, absolutely nothing from Kercher's family. In fact, the media has been completely one-sided on Ms Knox's side and it is that way because that's the route her family and lawyers chose - they have no right to complain of trial by media as that's what they have been pushing from the beginning.

Granted, media interest was big before the trial and it is big now we have a verdict, but the process itself was simply reported. Where is the problem? I think any juror is intelligent and mature anough to make decisions based on the trial, which is all that has been reported for almost a year now. If there was a deflammatory piece in some scummy rag about Ms Knox 18 months ago, who cares? That was pre-trial - before there were even any jurors. In fact, the juror has spent 2 or 3 days almost every other week (for several hours at a time) for almost a year in the company of Ms Knox - I trust them to judge her character using solely their own means. If they did watch the news all they'd be seeing is a report of what they had been listening to all day and some of Knox's relatives calling everyone under the sun. Hmmmmmm, actually. Maybe that did bias them a little...

Ms Knox's family keep trumpeting the case file evidence as 'flawed', but that sounds like lawyer speak for a not legally sound conviction, not innocence of accused. If you base your entire defence on two pieces of evidence, which may or may not be flawed, and argue them out of the context of all the numerous additional evidence and testimony then you're going to lose. There is little physical evidence in this case but an absolute mountain of anaylitcal and psycholigical evidence. Also a lot of testimony on why the physical envidence doesn't exist - witnesses who saw the guilty pair cleaning etc. There is no physical evidence linking anyone else either - it has all been destroyed. You'll notice "the need for a logical conclusion" was made by the prosector in their closing statment - and that is the reason why. She wasn't convicted solely on DNA evidence on a knife and a bra strap and if they turn the verdict around on appeal based solely on those pieces of evidence then I shall be stunned. I think the best she can hope for is a retrial with those pieces of evidence ommitted, but as I said those were a tiny fraction of the evidence. Omotting them would probably weaken her case anyway as they need to be argued - the defense have failed to argue on any of the other pieces of evidence with anything convincing.

She is lucky she wasn't tried back home though, with the prospect of the death penalty. Oh wait, she is white and female (and not Aileen Wuornos).

I feel sorry for Ms Knox's family, they're deeply in denial.

And sorry if I have come across hostile at any point but there is some sickening veiled racism in this thread. Most of it goes like "I like Italy/ I have live in Italy but..." It's like those people who say they have a black friend.

[beac]

187. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Like you, I have spent a lot of time in Italy and am SICKENED by the anti-Italian rants in this thread.

It's very clear that most people who support Knox are basing their opinions solely on the coverage in the American press, including the yellowest of all yellow journalism programs, "48 Hours."

Amanda's parents hired a PUBLICIST for that very reason, to try their daughter's case in the American court of public opinion. Looks like they got their money's worth. Hard to have sympathy for their alleged financial troubles when they spent a good chunk of that money on PR.

As for the folks who say they'll never visit Italy again, I say buon riddance.

[devilgrrl]

212. Oh, I know. "It was on '48 Hours' - It must be true!!!!!!"

Puh-leeze!

BTW, what little that I know of this case - I think she's guilty too. :popcorn:

[teknomanzer]

186. Wow... lots of people with opinions...

How many were actually in the courtroom?

[sabrina 1]

191. How many even read anything about the case? The US media's

coverage of this case has been so biased in favor of this woman that to rely on that alone, would make it impossible to have an informed opinion. I did not follow case but watched the coverage after the verdict. I was frustrated by the lack of facts presented, and by the friends of the Knox family who were not impressive at all, most of their commentary NOT defending Amanda, but slamming the Italians. As a completely unbiased viewer with no knowledge of the facts, I was instantly turned off by the coverage.

So I read a little about the case and can't say one way or the other whether or not Amanda and her boyfriend were guilty, not having seen all of the evidence. What I can say is that from the international coverage I saw, her family and friends have acted deplorably regardless of her guilt or innocence.

The family of the victim by contrast, appear to have remained silent, saying nothing that might influence the trial. And if anyone has reason to be angry, I would think it would be the family of the murdered girl. The Knoxes are, to put it mildly, obnoxious. Leaving out this trial, just as people, they are not very appealing and I hope the world does not judge Americans in general based on their behavior.

As for our media, I don't expect anything of them and never take their reporting on face value. Our media in general is a disgrace. I suggest people do their own research on this trial and definitely do not rely on the US media's coverage, which disgracefully, barely mentioned the victim. No surprise though and I would think that people on this board would never take the word of the MSM without checking other sources.

Having said all that, I do sympathize with the Knox family. This has to have been a nightmare for them. But someone should have advised them that lashing out at others is not the way to help your daughter's case in the court of public opinion. The case itself, from what I've read, seems to have been handled the way most murder cases are absent eye-witnesses or confessions (although she did initially confess). There is going to be an appeal and if she is innocent, people can only wish that her legal team succeeds in getting her released. But her family needs to stay quiet, for her sake.

[Thickasabrick]

195. The one thing that bothers me is the bleach. Eyewitnesses put

her at a market at 7:45 am, when she said she was sleeping at her boyfriends. She bought cleaning supplies and the scene was cleaned up somewhat in places. That is just very suspicious to me. The other thing is her accusing a totally innocent guy who was later found to be completely innocent as his alibi was airtight.

[sasquatch]

198. That guy just made that up for media attention

[beac]

217. Then why was there a receipt for cleaning products FROM THAT STORE found in Sollecito's apartment?

Police have, in fact, found a receipt for cleaning products from the same store in Sollecito's home. The receipt matches the cost of bleach and other products used to clean up the murder weapon and the murder scene.
http://www.examiner.com/x-20053-Boston-Cultural-Events-Examiner~y2009m12d3-Amanda-Knox-guilty-or-not-guilty-video


You clearly are getting ALL your info from the biased US press and t's obvious that you have an agenda to exonerate Knox, but you are only making yourself look foolish.

[sabrina 1]

227. Can you explain why she and her boyfriend were standing

outside the house with a bucket and a mop when the police unexpectedly showed up, not because of the murder as they did not know anyone had been murdered yet, but because the murdered girl's, Meridiths' two cell phones had been found and they went to return them.

Why did Amanda lie to her mother, when she called telling her about the blood in the bathroom and the open front door and her mother advised her to call the police? She told her mother she had, but cell-phone records showed later, that she had not.

In fact, aside from the blood evidence inside the house, the cell phone records show her lying over and over again.

Only she, of all the people who lived in the house and were questioned by the police, had any problem with the police. Mainly because none of the others lied. Even the guy she falsely accused and whom the police originally believed to be guilty, was released once the truth about his whereabouts was established. So, it's not like the police were out to get anyone, she just kept lying and they kept catching her.

Read some more about this case, it's hard to believe she is innocent once you do.

[Julius Civitatus]

242. That's total bull! The receipts for the bleach were found at Sollecito's place

And there were dated from that very morning after the murder. And Knox and Sollecito were found with mop and bucket when the police made it to the scene of the crime. And a kitchen knife that had been washed in bleach was found in Sollecito's bedroom. And the knife still had traces of Kercher's blood on the blade, Knox's DNA on the handle.

All these facts are part of the evidence admited in the trial.

[sasquatch]

250. Could you provide a link please

And not one from a tabloid

[beac]

252. How about CNN? THAT good enough for you???

"After the death police found a receipt at Sollecito's house for cleaning products from the shop where Knox was allegedly spotted, the paper said. Officers say bleach and cloths found in the house were used to clean the knife used in the murder and the murder scene itself." http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/23/italy.student.kercher.trial/index.html

[superconnected]

206. 25 years, justtice after all. Sorry to all of you who think she's cute so should be let off.

[sasquatch]

209. I don't think she should be let off cause she's cute

She should be let off cause there's no evidence. Its just a prosecuter calling her a nympho because she owned a sex toy and because of that she's capable of murder.

[beac]

213. So, her footprints in Kercher's blood, cleaned up but revealed by Luminol,

isn't "evidence" in your book?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Murder-Trial-Blood-Footprint-Matches-Accused-Killer-Amanda-Knox/Article/200905215278601?f=rss

Her blood (from breaking a window? the cut observed on her neck?) was found mixed with Kercher's in a bathroom that had otherwise been recently wiped clean. She was seen buying cleaning supplies early that morning.


You may not agree with the evidence, but it exists.

[sasquatch]

233. That was disproven on cross exhamiunation though

[beac]

235. No, it wasn't.

It was challenged by Knox's experts, but not "disproven."

[sasquatch]

240. But they showed evidence that it wasn't hers

It was the prosecuter that said it was hers, without solid evidence.

[Julius Civitatus]

243. Forensic evidence is not "solid evidence"?

You are tripping, and embarrassing yourself with every post.

[sasquatch]

246. Why, because I refuse to believe the lies of a biased media and corrupt prosecutor

[Julius Civitatus]

238. No, it was NOT disproven

At this point you are either making things up, or you are more ignorant of the facts of this case than you think. To challenge something in court is not the same as disproving it.

At this point, the more you post, the more you are embarrassing yourself. Please learn about this case from neutral sources.

[sasquatch]

239. Yes, it was

Another expdert came in anbd disproved the footprints.

[Julius Civitatus]

244. This is a circular dialogue that only proves your bias

It was challenge but not disproven. The expert brought by the defense could not disprove the forensic evidence.

[sasquatch]

247. Actually the expert did and you just don't want to deal with it

[sasquatch]

249. Here I even provided you a link

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

[beac]

253. You just have to laugh when someone (see above) provides a link to

support their assertion that does no such thing. It just mentions the very disagreement between defense and prosecution experts that you referenced.

The main bulk of link is an interview with Ann Bremner, a lawyer who is pro-bono counsel and spokesperson for the Knox family and "Friends of Amanda." What the person above imagines Bremner's OPINION has to do with anything allegedly "disproven" is court is beyond me.

[sabrina 1]

226. You know, as is obvious in your case, I did not know anything

about this case a few days ago. Unlike you though, I have done a little research since then and it's clear from your statement 'there's no evidence', that for some reason, you prefer to remain ignorant of the facts, or you are relying on the US media whose coverage has been mostly based on the Knox family's professional PR team's 'information'. Just as relying on the MSM for news of the wars will keep Americans ignorant of the facts, the same it is clear, applies to this case.

Not only is your statement incorrect, it is doing nothing to help Amanda because there is sadly, an enormous amount of evidence against her, not least of which is evidence she herself provided. Anyone who wants to help her since this information is readily available, would do better to try to argue the facts of the case.

Simply dismissing the Italian judicial system won't do her any good as the media outside of the US has been reporting accurately on the case making it easy to fact check what appears in the very biased US media. Her own lies, so many of them, would be enough in any country, to make her a suspect at least. And then, contrary to the reporting in the US media, there is a lot of damning evidence against her. She was in trouble as soon as soon as she started lying and she lied a lot.

The best thing she can do now is to tell what she knows. In the Italian judicial system, unlike ours, she could have her sentence reduced if she tells the truth and shows some remorse. Their system rewards those who show signs of rehabilitation, unlike ours which is all about punishment and revenge. If I cared about her, that is the advice I would give her for her own sake.

[AJH032]

255. For those who think the U.S. should idly let the verdict stand...

I ask you to imagine the situation were reversed. That is, imagine a 22 year old Italian girl spending time here in the United States, with no prior criminal record and no motive to kill, is charged with murdering her roommate. Then, she is convicted on faulty evidence and "strange behavior" that really isn't that strange for any defendant put in that situation. Further, this is done by a jury of United States citizens, all wearing sashes of red, white and blue (and yes, Amanda Knox's jurors all wore sashes with the colors of the Italian flag), who sentence her to 26 years in prison.

Would you expect Italy to sit idly? Would you sit idly? I know I would not, and I hope nobody would. This is a matter of what's right and what's wrong. I don't care if the U.S. comes across as a "bully" in this situation. The fact is, this girl has not been proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, and justice has been ignored.

[AlphaCentauri]

256. justice to whom?

[beac]

257. Your complete ignorance of another culture and their customs and legal system completely

undermines your argument, as does the fact that you obviously got all your information about the case from the biased US media. Plenty of people commit murder with 'no prior criminal record' and there was plenty of evidence against her, starting with her repeated claims to her mother and roommate that she had called the police when she had done no such thing. She and Sollecito were taken by surprise when two policemen showed up b/c Kercher's phones had been found in a nearby garden. Sollecito they hurriedly called another branch of the police and pretended to report the break-in to try and cover. WHY did she claim, more than once, that she'd called the police when she had not? That was the FIRST of Knox's many lies.

She was lawfully convicted in a court of law that is, in many ways, more just and more humane than our own. She is not facing the death penalty, as she would here, and can even shave time of her sentence if she owns up and confesses to her part in the murder.

Please do yourself a favor and explore some of the non-US links I and others have provided here.

Knox's own Italian lawyers are asking Americans to knock it off. http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php (This site also has some grest info, including Powerpoints, that might change your mind about some of the defense claims, such as that someone could have possibly entered through the broken window.)

[AJH032]

258. Circumstantial evidence is generally not enough to convict

And there isn't even very much of that. There is no direct evidence linking Amanda to this crime. Changing stories about contacting police is not enough, sorry.

Oh, and FYI, I am half Italian and spent two years in Italy a few years ago. Please don't lecture me on my "ignorance of another culture".

[beac]

259. Then WHY did you have your knickers in a bunch about the Italian jury wearing sashes?

If you knew as much as you claim to about Italy, you'd know that sashes are quite commonly worn for serious ceremonies in Italy.

As for your claim about 'circumstantial' evidence not being enough to convict a person, that's just laughable.

[AJH032]

261. well, you see, I didn't say that

I didn't say it's never enough, but in this case, it absolutely is not enough. If Amanda Knox truly did what the prosecution claims she did, forensic evidence would be abundant. Period.

And regarding the sash, I have seen them worn at occasions like weddings. I have also seen military officers wearing them. I have never heard of jurors wearing them. If that is something that is generally done, then fine. I have my doubts though.

[beac]

262. Italian jurors are REQUIRED to wear sashes during certain phases of the trial.

Good grief, did you REALLY think it was some kind of anti-American statement????? You do remember that TWO Italians were also convicted of the crime?

:eyes:

ETA: As far as convictions based on shady behavior and circumstantial evidence, Scott Peterson will be happy to know you think he's innocent, as there was no forensic evidence against him, save a single hair.

[AJH032]

263. Wow, really?

Seriously? Are you actually comparing the evidence in this case to that of the Peterson trial? Laci's body turned up practically next door to the place Scott had been "fishing" when she disappeared. And the boat he used for his "fishing" trip was secretly bought, paid in cash, just weeks before Laci went missing. Yes, the boat with her hair that you referenced. Add to that behavior like selling her possessions and changing his physical appearance. While we're at it, add his affair and his debt, (ie, motives), and you've got yourself a case built on a solid collection of circumstantial evidence.

Please, the case against Amanda Knox does not even compare.

Oh, and an honest question. If sashes are required, how come only 6 of the 8 jurors were wearing them? Just curious.

[beac]

264. Because the six were the 'lay' jurors and the other two wear their judges robes.

Quit looking for conspiracies where none exist. Perhaps you need to educate yourself a little more about the Italian side of your heritage.

And I used the Peterrson case to refute your ludicrous claim that circumstantial evidence is "generally" not enough to convict.

Clearly, we aren't going agree on whether the case against Knox was enough for a guilty verdict, but I hope, at least, you will now finally abandon your silly indignation regarding the sashes.

[AJH032]

265. Even in the Peterson case

despite all the corroborating pieces of evidence, there was still doubt. Circumstantial evidence has to be plentiful, logical, and strong. That's why I said it's "generally" not enough, unless these pillars are present.

But you're right, we aren't going to agree on the strength of this case.

As for the sashes, I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy. You inferred I was, but as far as I was concerned, it wasn't what drove my opinions on the case. Still, thanks for clearing that up. My stance is based on the lack of (in my opinion), evidence and motive.

[beac]

266. The number of Americans wailing about the sashes is truly unbelievable and

I am glad that I have at least corrected one person's understanding of why they were worn.

Knox is appealing the verdict and will have yet another 'day in court.' In the meantime, the US needs to butt the heck out. As I mentioned above, even Knox's attorneys know that all this xenophobia is doing her no favors.

Pace. ("Peace.")

[sasquatch]

267. No I wouldn't and no we won't

That whole thing stinks on ice and we need to do something.