Explicit Book of Genesis upsets Christians (R . Crumb)

[depakid]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/10/18/bookofgenesis_narrowweb__300x397,2.jpg

A SEXUALLY explicit illustrated Book of Genesis by the controversial artist, Robert Crumb, which features biblical characters having intercourse and ''gratuitous'' depictions of violence, has been condemned by religious groups. The book, released this month, carries the warning ''adult supervision recommended for minors'', and is described as ''scandalous satire'' by its publishers.

Crumb, the author, is most famous for his creation Fritz the Cat, a sexually graphic ''underground'' comic strip. It was turned into a film that received the first X rating for an animation. Crumb has said he does not believe the Bible is the word of God. ''I take it all for myth from start to finish, with probably some faint relation to historical reality,'' he said. ''They're great stories. But for people to take texts as something sacred, handed down from God … that's pretty backward.''

The Book of Genesis illustrated by R. Crumb has been criticised by religious groups such as the Christian Institute in Britain. ''It is turning the Bible into titillation,'' said Mike Judge, of institute, a religious think tank. ''It seems wholly inappropriate for what is essentially God's rescue plan for mankind.

'If you are going to publish your own version of the Bible it must be done with a great deal of sensitivity. The Bible is a very important text to many people.'' Other religious figures have been more supportive ''I didn't think it was satire,'' said the Bishop of Croydon, the Right Reverend Nick Baines. ''He set out to say, 'this is important, fundamental myth' and it seems to me he's done a good job.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/books/explicit-genesis-upsets-christians/2009/10/18/1255800503029.html

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Heh. Heh. Mike Judge said "tit"

:D

[drm604]

44. For anyone who didn't catch you're reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Judge

This is of course a different Mike Judge. It's an amusing coincidence that he is criticizing a controversial cartoonist while having the same name as another controversial cartoonist.

[BlueJazz]

2. "The Bible is a very important text to many people.''

Yeah...well, there's a lot of subjects that are important to me and a slew of other people and these same subjects are ridiculed and (sometimes) made fun of...but you know what?.. We deal with it and accept life as it comes our way.

[shadowknows69]

30. Robert Crumb's work is very important to me

If you want to base your spirituality on a tome of unverifiable myths, I'm afraid you're going to have to accept some criticism of that.

[BlueJazz]

41. Not exactly sure who you're talking to but I agree with your post.

I'm an Atheist.

[shadowknows69]

43. Wasn't directed at you. Directed at the "don't pick on my God" sect.

[felinetta]

108. I'm an atheist too. And I just say, don't read it if you don't like . No censorship.

[paulsby]

74. would crumb dare do the same thing to the koran?

THAT would take guts. doing it with christianity is easy. you don't have to go into hiding (a la rushdie) or get your throat slit.

and drawing cartoons of jesus won't cause rioting

so, whatever i can say about our own fundamentalists, there is a magnitude of difference.

[shadowknows69]

75. Not so sure about that difference.

If anything the Christotaliban could get to Crumb probably easier than any Muslim extremist. And last I checked, they didn't get Rushdie.

[paulsby]

76. get real

you aren't SURE about the difference?

let's see Piss Christ... any murders, building burned down, riots in the street? nope
ditto for the last temptation of christ, any # of porn movies, virgin mary in dung, etc. etc.

if you aren't so sure about the difference, you need to study current events.

for pete's sake, death threats and rioting over CARTOONS

and yes, they didn't get rushdie BECAUSE HE WENT INTO HIDING

when was the last time a critic of christianity or judaism had to literally hide?

get real

[shadowknows69]

78. Ask several murdered abortion doctors how safe the Christotaliban are.

How about the Gay community that has to put up with constant hate crimes? You think the uber-fundies wouldn't love to tie J.K Rowling to a burning stake? Never mind the constant threats against our President by knuckledraggers that think he's a Muslim and a "Godless Socialist". The American Taliban isn't as dangerous only because they're too stupid and lazy to be and don't really have enough faith to blow themselves to paradise for their hatred.

[paulsby]

79. nice dodge and evasion

try sticking to the point

the point was that crumb can feel free to criticize, ridicule, or draw pictures depicting christian and jewish mythology without fear of personal harm

the same cannot be said for critics of islam

we are talkign speech here. or at least I am. abortion is down the hall, first door on the left hth

i find it not at all surprising that when confronted with facts, you CHANGE the argument and move the goalposts.

try to be intellectually honest. it feels good

i repeat: would crumb dare to do the same thing to the koran and what would happen if he did.

let's see him make lots of pictures of mohammed and see how that goes.

hth

[shadowknows69]

82. You're the one dodging. I answered. And you're ignored.

[paulsby]

84. you didn't answer

and you are so dogmatic that you cannot accept that there is a difference.

jews and christians do not riot and murder over depictions of their god.

some muslim extremists do

one can criticize and mock christianity and judaism with impunity w/o fear of serious bodily harm/death

same cannot be said of islam

would crumb dare pictorialize the koran?

would he?

[gatorboy]

116. How could anyone here know if Crumb would take on the Koran?

I don't think anyone here is on a first name basis with him. :)

Salman Rishdie was raised in a Shi'ite Muslim family. So it's easy to see why he would have first hand knowledge on what he was writing about.

Crumb was raised in a Christian home. People write what they know. Simple as that.

[paulsby]

126. thank you

that is an intelligent, on point answer.

the question was somewhat rhetorical. iow, by asking a question, i am making a point. the point is, that the comparison between christian/jewish fundamentalists and muslim fundamentalists is often made, and i see such statements as fundamentalist (and don't get me wrong, i think fundamentalists are silly) christians are really cut from the same cloth as fundamentalist muslims, and numerous attempts to equate them.

and amongst the differences is this:

one can criticize judaism and christianity. even in majority christian country like the US, or a majority jewish country like israel WITHOUT any reasonable fear of death/serious bodily injury.

islam is unique amongst religions, in that those who criticize it, "mess with it" (a la rushdie), pictorially depict mohammed etc. do have a reasonable fear that many extremists will murder, rape, riot, pillage, etc.

i happened to meet rushdie's (now) ex-wife, as we had mutual acquaintances on martha's vineyard, and i learned how rushdie really was put through quite a hell, a far worse ordeal than roman polanski had to, and all he did was write some words that extremists found offensive to their religious beliefs.


heck, most newspapers in the US wouldn't even publish examples of the offending cartoons from the great mohammed cartoon scandal, for (legitimate) fear of harm.

contrast this with critics of judaism and christianity, who routinely mock, "mess with", pictorially represent, bash, etc. the other two abrahamic religions WITHOUT same fear. for pete's sake, we have a tv show (one of my favorites) that depicts jesus as a talk show host on local cable.

also, there is really nothing edgy in doing this stuff with christianty and judaism. it's been done SO many times.

it would be VERY edgy and very welcome to see the same types of criticism, satire, etc. able to be pointed towards the other abrahamic religion (islam) without the artist/provacateur/comedian having to fear for their life.

[msanthrope]

117. Nice case of fatwa envy there, Paulsby,

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Fatwa_envy

[Overseas]

123. Great term, "fatwa envy." I see that happening a lot. //nt

[paulsby]

127. cute but it ignores the issue

numerous people constantly try to equate, draw equivalences between what christian fundamentalists do and what muslim fundamentalists do.

while there certainly commonalities, there are VERY distinct differences. amongst those is that one can lampoon, mock, mess with, etc christianity, judaism, christian symbols and judaic symbols WITHOUT fear of the kind of crap that happens when somebody DARES draw a cartoon that depicts mohammed.

of the three abrahamic religions, only one has such violent, murderous followers, and in such large numbers.

christianity and judaism have gone through reformations. nobody needs fear bodily injury for being an apostate or a vocal critic.

[msanthrope]

131. People should not fear 'bodily injury' from fundamentalist Jews and Christians?

Damn. Someone should tell the Palestinians.

And the clinic workers.

And gay people.

Hell. Dig up Rabin. Let him know.

They have NOTHING to fear now. No bombings, bullets, bashing.....none.


***********************

And it is YOU, paulsby, no one else, who attempted to draw equivalences, which failed miserably.

The intelligent among us don't draw equivalences among the three abrahamic religions, because each is so deliciously fucked up in its own unique way.

But carry on with your internecine warfare.

[paulsby]

132. why is there such major difficulty with reading comprehension

as i have been saying throughout this thread, it is fear from attack due to SPEECH ISSUES - iow, attacking the religion, dipping a cross in urine (piss christ), etc.

jews and christians don't murder, rape and pillage over media depictions.

the radical fringe of islam DOES.

it is usually a sign that you know you are wrong, when you start bringing in TANGENTS.

hth

[gatorboy]

135. Something we can thank the Founding Fathers for.

You have a place like Saudi Arabia where the state is run by the church. They're run by an Islamic absolute monarchy. If we were run in a similar fashion- by hard, Christian law- perhaps things like Crumb's book would be less tolerated.

Thankfully, the Founding Fathers understood the importance of seperating church and state. Who knows? Without them we might still be burning witches.

[msanthrope]

136. Tangents? Paulsby, you are the one with fatwa envy on a thread about the Bible.

Didn't your Jebus warn you about this kind of fault finding in Matthew 7:3?

[paulsby]

137. why do you say

"your Jebus"?

when you can't get by on irrelevant tangents, evasions, and stuff, you now have read my mind and now claim to know that i believe in jesus?

maybe this is the failure of your teachers. did they do enough reading comprehension drills?

like i said, try some reading comprehension. i never said i believed in jesus, nor is that in any way, shape or form relevant to this thread.

the point is simply that islam is unique amongst the abrahamic religions (and most other religions such as wicca etc.) because if one mocks, criticizes, animates, etc. various aspect of that religion, one is met with violence.

compare and contrast

hth

[CanSocDem]

3. This is good.

Robert Crumb is a prophet.

.

[Botany]

4. I'll stick w/ Fred Natural

[Canuckistanian]

5. Me too n/t

[Botany]

7. He points the way

[Are_grits_groceries]

6. If the Leviticans can rewrite the Bible

to fit their more conservative views, then R.Crumb can use his vision too.

[givemebackmycountry]

9. BINGO!

Grits got it right on the money!

Keep on Truckin' Mr. Crumb!

[NewJeffCT]

19. +1

it was only a few weeks ago that the RW bible idea was put out there...

[DLnyc]

22. K&R your reply

And mention it looks like Master Crumb's interpretation is a hell of a lot healthier than the conservative kooks' one.

[Are_grits_groceries]

31. I like the lol cats version.

http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Genesis_1



Boreded Ceiling Cat makinkgz Urf n stuffs
1 Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem.

2 Da Urfs no had shapez An haded dark face, An Ceiling Cat rode invisible bike over teh waterz.

3 At start, no has lyte. An Ceiling Cat sayz, i can haz lite? An lite wuz.4 An Ceiling Cat sawed teh lite, to seez stuffs, An splitted teh lite from dark but taht wuz ok cuz kittehs can see in teh dark An not tripz over nethin.5 An Ceiling Cat sayed light Day An dark no Day. It were FURST!!!1

6 An Ceiling Cat sayed, im in ur waterz makin a ceiling. But he no yet make a ur. An he maded a hole in teh Ceiling.7 An Ceiling Cat doed teh skiez with waterz down An waterz up. It happen.8 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has teh firmmint wich iz funny bibel naim 4 ceiling, so wuz teh twoth day.

9 An Ceiling Cat gotted all teh waterz in ur base, An Ceiling Cat hadz dry placez cuz kittehs DO NOT WANT get wet.10 An Ceiling Cat called no waterz urth and waters oshun. Iz good.

11 An Ceiling Cat sayed, DO WANT grass! so tehr wuz seedz An stufs, An fruitzors An vegbatels. An a Corm. It happen.12 An Ceiling Cat sawed that weedz ish good, so, letz there be weedz.13 An so teh threeth day jazzhands.

[OnyxCollie]

37. 13 An so teh threeth day jazzhands. LOL! nt

[DLnyc]

39. Awesome

And I'm so profoundly thankful that glad Ceiling Cat no ated it.

Thanks for making my life a little brighter!

[Arugula Latte]

96. Oh my gawd that is funny.

:rofl:

Finally, a version of the Bible I like! Bless you, Ceiling Cat.

[Soylent Brice]

111. jazzhands. *snort*

:rofl:

[Taverner]

46. Thing is he's not rewriting it - just illustrating it

And seen in its proper context (alongside Odysseus, the Aeneid, the Mahabrata, etc) its a beautiful, good thing.

And no more offensive than the Brick Testament

[aquart]

60. Fair's fair.

And it ain't like he's making things up.

[jeffbr]

8. The New Yorker excerpted it:

http://hectocotylus.blogspot.com/2009/06/robert-crumb-genesis.html

[Robb]

13. Good lord, that's hardly explicit or titilating.

And from the excerpt, appears remarkably faithful to the text.

[intheflow]

23. Adam and Eve aren't doing it in the missionary position.

And they're nekkid!!!11!!1 Obviously, this comic is a sin against God and humanity! :sarcasm:

[Robb]

24. It hardly looks like they're even doin' it. nt

[greiner3]

61. R. Crumb did like the asses big and the boobs huge.

[dysfunctional press]

139. wait until it gets to the part about soddom and gomorrah.

that may be a bit more explicit.

[depakid]

16. The fundies will love the presentation of misogyny

if they can get past the images.

[Bette Noir]

26. Wow. Gorgeous. I may be buying me a Bible.

The drawings seem in keeping with the text, which is pretty explicit to start with. As with the Brothers Grimm, the Bible wasn't written for children.

[nolabear]

32. Wow. It's just gorgeous!

I can't wait to get a copy.

[Regret My New Name]

63. OMG!!! HE DREW NIPPLES AND PENISESESES!!!

Funny how they object to the actual story they worship.

[Occulus]

70. I actually like the very first page a lot

God, holding a ball of swirling Darkness that shines light in every direction.

That would make a great visual effects shot, now that I think about it.

[Soylent Brice]

113. oh no!! they're nekkid!!

:sarcasm:

[Union Yes]

10. A fundie christian believes it's a sin for anyone ELSE to have sex.

Do as I say, not as I do.

[No Elephants]

86. A person can believe something is wrong for everyone, yet still do it.

Millions of peoople, Christian or not, have had extra-marital affairs or brought home office supplies from work or jaywalked or whatever, all the while believing those things were wrong for anyone to do.

[donquijoterocket]

120. fundigelicals & sex

The predominant attitude among fundigelicals concerning religion and sex is summed up in the following:Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you’re going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.” – Butch Hancock, Musician, the Flatlanders
Near as I can tell that pretty well covers it.

[Union Yes]

11. I wonder if these same people will condemn Kirk Camerons lie-athon reprint of Darwins "Origin".

[liberal_at_heart]

90. Good point Union Yes

I completely agree. It is okay for Christians to reprint Darwin's Origin of the Species with their version of creation but other people can't print a different version of the Bible? Sounds a little hypocritical to me.

[winyanstaz]

12. wow,,just wait until he gets to revolations....talk about bloody messes...

or how about that one...umm I forget which chapter it is in..where their blood thirsty God has them murder all the people and animals and even the babies. Talk about holocausts and genocide...or how about the one where Lot has sex with his daughtor and thats ok with God..or what's his face gets the maid pregnant and then when his wife gets pregnant throws the maid and his son out on their asses? Oh yes..the bible is so holy all right.

[Rozlee]

52. You forgot about the hemorrhoids

God was really big on giving people hemorrhoids for some reason.

[No Elephants]

87. Don't recall that from the King James version. Maybe you're thinking of boils?

[Arugula Latte]

94. And what about the implied incest? Adam and Eve had two sons ...

And then ... somehow ... the rest of humanity comes forth.

Apparently, Grandma Eve was also Mommy Eve. x(

[Hekate]

14. I can just imagine his take on Lot's daughters. My oh my.

The Bible has a lot of interesting tales to tell. I wonder sometimes how many have actually read the thing. It's inspired libraries full of commentary, untold amounts of art and literature. And, sadly, wars. But it does have a lot to say to us.

Since certain rightwingers are rewriting the King James version to bolster the moneychangers in the Temple, and God only knows what they will do to the Sermon on the Mount (Supply Side Jesus comes to mind) I have no problem with a cartoonist like Crumb taking a look at the text.

Will he go further? Imagine the howls when he gets to the Song of Songs. "My tongue shall cleave to the roof of thy mouth" and all the rest. Gorgeous poem -- and very sexual.

Hekate

[No Elephants]

88. Lot offered his daughters to the townfolk, but , apparently, no one took him up on it. Then, he

impregnanted them.

I'm thinking he was not an excellent parent.

[Hekate]

144. Actually, thinking he was the last man on Earth, they got him drunk and seduced him...

Ooops. Turned out he really wasn't the last man on Earth, but in all the devastation how were they to know?

Like I said, very interesting human-being stories in there.

Hekate

[imdjh]

15. Are the British trying to kill "the"?

"said Mike Judge, of institute, a religious think tank."

Was that before or after he went to hospital while on holiday near university?

[geckosfeet]

17. Get you very own copy here...

The Book of Genesis illustrated by R. Crumb

[rhett o rick]

18. Or here if you dont like Amazon

http://www.powells.com/biblio/18-9780393061024-0

[NewJeffCT]

20. Now, will Crumb get death threats like Salman Rushdie

did for The Satanic Verses? Just curious to see if there are parallels in religious extremism between RW Christians and Muslims?

[Hekate]

25. Depends on which of our own radical mullahs pronounces a fatwa... Rev. Pat Robertson?

He's known for that.

Hekate

[msanthrope]

118. Nice case of fatwa envy New Jeff....are you sad because you

think Christianity is being denied the violence you ascribe to Muslims?

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Fatwa_envy

[Hekate]

21. I just looked at the excerpts, and they're actually very good...

http://hectocotylus.blogspot.com/2009/06/robert-crumb-genesis.html

[Grinchie]

27. Must be those "Big Titted Hippie Chicks" that they don't like.

Brings back memories of my Anthology of the "Fabulous Furrie Freak Brothers" that was unceremoniously stolen from me in High School.

I'd like to ask this pastor how the Iraq War, the Palestine Oppression by Isreal, and economic hardship for all fit's in to "God's rescue plan for mankind.." Maybe is the stoning to death parts.. Who knows.

[rayofreason]

28. When will he do the Koran?

Probably never if he knows what is good for him.

I think I'll get one of these "illustrated" bibles. I loved Fritz the Cat, though I never saw the movie.

[shadowknows69]

29. This is new by Crumb? I must own this.

[dipsydoodle]

51. Another due late January 2010

Robert Crumb's Sex Obsessions (Hardcover)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-Crumbs-Sex-Obsessions-Crumb/dp/3836516497/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255904650&sr=1-2

[jmondine]

33. Excuse me, but the Book of Genesis is overflowing with sex and violence.

It would be revisionist to NOT include it.

[shadowknows69]

35. For the win!

[nolabear]

34. This might make more people read Genesis than ever would have otherwise.

You'd think the thumpers would at least be pleased about that. I understand that he's absolutely faithful to the text.

[Kablooie]

36. The bible has a lot of horrifying stories by today's standards. Sexual and violent.

Many Christians have decided that the parts of the bible that they don't like, don't really exist.
They skim over them while proclaiming that the bible is the inviolable word of God.

They are idiots like Bush who only see what they want to see and ignore any kind of divergent reality that confronts them.

[zeemike]

48. Are you kidding me?

There is more sex and violence today than ever in history....Bills BJ, MJ and little kids, foot tapping, hiking the Appellation trial....it goes on and on.....and the violence is none stop in many movies and TV shows.
No the bible comes no where close.

[intheflow]

53. Are YOU kidding ME?

How can you compare Clinton's, Sanford's or any sexual affair between two consenting adults with such sordid Bible stories as Lot having sex with his daughters, Adam and Eve's children sleeping with each other to populate the entire world, or King David's son raping his half sister? In the latter story, King David's other son contracts a hit to have his brother killed for the act when he learns of it.

The violence in the Bible is even more pronounced. Throughout the old testament, there are stories of genocidal campaigns against various nations and communities. In the new testament, the death penalty is administered by crucifixion: nailing a person to the cross and allowing them to die in the open from exposure, starvation, and dehydration. Say what you will about the modern death penalty, we're not crucifying anyone any more. Also, the violence in movies and tv is fiction, make-believe, pretend. You might have grounds for saying war is more vicious today due to modern tools of war, but the genocidal campaign against Native Americans would be a much better comparison to biblical violence than citing Die Hard or Miami Vice.

[zeemike]

59. Oh really come on now.

How can you compare " and she lay with her father and he came in unto her and she conceived" to something like "if you are going to cum on my face don't get it in my hair because I just washed it."
the writers of the bible have no sense of graphic details like we are all use to today.

And as for the violence just remember that we teach kids all about it with video games and then show them even more realistic violence on the TV and in the flicks....just ask yourself how many times you yourself have seen someone blown away on the TV in your life....they cut people up with chain saws and shows like 24 claim they are the good guys when they torture people....Nope no comparison.

[Kablooie]

69. How many movies today would have not the villain but the HERO conceive children with his daughters.

[zeemike]

80. I can think of a modern day plot like that.

Where the hero and his daughters think they are the only ones left on earth after a cataclysmic event and they reproduce.
That is the story here is it not....Lots daughters thought they wee the only ones left on the earth so they got him drunk and slept with him to continue life.
And in that light then the daughters are the heroes because they realized if they did not do it it would not get done and man would no longer be....it is not the same story as a lecher having sex with his daughters.

But we refrain from that because it is illegal and there is no reason for it....but still you can probably find that kind of perverted stuff in the porn market....but they will show it graphically so that perverts can have something to masturbate to.
In most of our violent movies that violence is committed by the hero....but justified by some fight with evil....so if that violence now can be justified then why not the stories in the bible, which by the way are not even close to the millions we kill in our wars that we justify also.

So peoples anger here is not about violence or graphic sex, but about the bible itself, and against the ones who use it to justify themselves.

[JackRiddler]

89. So your objections are not to the facts but to whether they are described in vulgar language?

[zeemike]

93. No my objection is that we are hypocrites.

We love sex and violence yet rail against it in only one particular book, even though that sex and violence is far less graphic and extensive than what we present to our children on a daily basis.
If Cain slew Able or Lot slept with his daughters should that not be in print?...and it matters not whether you think it is true or not.

[mbperrin]

101. How about cannabilism?

2 Kings 6:26-29

As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, "Help me, my lord the king!"

The king replied, "If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?" Then he asked her, "What's the matter?"

She answered, "This woman said to me, 'Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we'll eat my son.' So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

Jeremiah 19:9 (also Ezek 5:10)

I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.

[zeemike]

103. Well as you know stories about cannibalism are common in all history.

And we have Jeffery Damer, The Donner party, those soccer players that crashed in the Andes and the well know fact that seaman that were adrift in life boats were know to eat the dead and to even kill one of the living so that the rest would live.
It is a sad fact of life that people will do some atrocious things when they are hungry.
So why is this so surprising when it is with us today and has always been.

[mbperrin]

107. I'm not at all surprised. I think the Bible is one of the most vile and violent

series of stories ever written. God is omnipotent and omnipresent, makes rules that he knows his creations can't keep, punishes them for that, then offers to "save" them from himself and the rest of his creation? Wow.

If that's not Munchausen syndrome by proxy, I don't know what it would be.

Certainly, no child should be subjected to the Bible.

[zeemike]

121. You could say the same about the history of the 20th century.

Two world wars, Korea, Viet Nam, and now the middle east....and if one were to write it and leave out the vile violent parts it would not be history now would it.
When you recount events you include the bad parts too so that we might learn from them. But that does not mean that the historian is approving of it all.

[mbperrin]

130. Yes, but history actually happened, and we can take a lesson from that.

No need to make up extra stories about cannibalism, incest, lust, murder, genocide, and more, and all presented as virtues.

No historian thinks the Holocaust was good, but Bible folk routinely approve of the destruction of the entire earth's population, except for a handful, a la Noah's Ark. The perversity of the made up stories of the Bible, which serve the supremely twisted personality of the creator of the universe in same, exceeds all understanding.

The finest virtue of all is arranging for the painful death of your own son to satisfy your own desire for blood and pain, which is really weird, because if you made all the blood in everything, it's already yours. But no, gotta kill your own kid, and then have your followers wear little symbols of the device which killed him. Too weird for me. Would be like Holocaust descendants wearing tiny shower heads around their necks to "honor" those they lost.

Whereas a true chronicle of actual events will allow us to see the horror in those events and to learn to avoid them in the future.

History is a virtuous subject; the Bible is a porno-death-as-pleasure guide for really sick behavior.

[zeemike]

133. Well if it is just a fictional story then why are you so upset?

And where does it say in there that this is all a virtue?
The world was destroyed in this story because of why? do you know?
In the story it was because the world was full of violence and corruption, and god admits that things were not going to well in his plan for the world...now why would he destroy the world if he like the violence?
I am not responsible for what the fundies tell you it says, and I am telling you that these stories are not about virtue.

But if you are so angry and offended about this book then the fundies have a right to be offended by Crums book....you can't have it both ways....bieng angry never produces a positive results.

[mbperrin]

140. Stop projecting. I am neither angry nor upset. This book is inappropriate for children.

So is drinking. So is smoking. Many things that adults can manage cannot be by children.

Your own answer contains the contradiction I'm talking about. Anything God does is virtuous and holy. You just admitted that he destroyed the world. That's not violent? Since he is the omnipotent omnipresent creator of the entire universe, he couldn't just change their attitudes with a burning bush? Voice from a rock? Nope. Just jump to the indiscriminate destruction of the earth and all its inhabitants, except for a very elite few.

If you want to argue God is not virtuous, you may. Please quote the chapter and verse in the Bible where it says that as well.

Being angry never produces positive results, you say in your last line.

Psalms 76:6-8 At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep. Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry? Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still,

Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Lamentations 2:20-22 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied. Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Maybe you need to get your God to clean up His act before you jump on me and accuse me of what you're feeling. I have in mind the protection of children, while you seem to think that gratuitous horrors are needed in addition to those of reality.

[zeemike]

141. Well it sounds angry to me.

But that means you must also be outraged at the violent video cames played by so many young people now. Especially sense bible descriptions of violence and sex are far more tame than our present system of entertainment.

But your assumptions that everything god does is virtuous and holly shows a misunderstanding of the concept of God.
In almost every religion and spiritual writing God is the creator of all...that means good and bad and yin and yang.
And that means he created evil as well as good just like light and darkness, because in this Creation we have a duality, and one cannot exist without the other....The study of science and nature tells us that this is true. Everything has this positive and negative and it is this force that holds this universe together and gives us existence.

Now I don't do bible quotes much because I am more concerned with the story, which becomes lost when excerpts are used to make some point without telling the story....and this is exactly what the fundies do to make their points....for instance are you aware that Psalms are songs from the time of David? So how can you say that those songs represent what god wants for man?
Can you imagine 2000 years from now people using "hey Jude" as god's justification for using drugs?

[mbperrin]

142. What story are you talking about?

The co-opting of the Norse end of times saga, when everything starts over with one man and one woman with a tree they hid in?

The stealing of the story of Mithras, a demigod, who was called the Lamb of God, born of a virgin, raised the dead, birthday on December 25?

The defamation of the old religion featuring a serpent representing eternity, swallowing his own tail, reconfigured to be a talking evil thing in the Garden of Eden?

Self-serving justification for the genocide of the Canaanites? "God gave us this land."

Excuse for militant solutions to earthly problems during Armageddon?

The adaptation of Gilgamesh as Noah?

Which story? Certainly none of the 15 books of the Apocrypha, which were left out of modern Protestant bibles. Several of these were by women, so certainly the patriarchs of the early Christian period didn't want their stories told.

Now which story are you talking about?

[zeemike]

143. Well sense we are talking about the bible....the story IT tells.

I thought it was obvious. This is not about other stories but one specific one.
Makes no different to me whether or not ir is similar to other stories at all.
But here is a summation of that story;

The Creation story.
The decent of man into corruption and violence and the flood that destroyed them.
The history of the 12 tribes
The Exodus of the 12 tribes from Egypt and the establishment of the nation of Israel under gods law (the ten commandments)
The history of Israel and it's corruption and destruction.

That is the Old Testament...Now let's talk about that story if you will, but not get side tracked by comparison to other stories, or by trying to re-label it as fiction.

[mbperrin]

145. The Creation story of Genesis is DERIVED from the Norse myth of

Raganorak, just as surely as Noah is derived from Gilgamesh. These older stories were already there and were adapted for the purposes of the new religion, as well as many others. Fiction or no, there is very little evidence that any of these were historic events.

I'm not labeling or relabeling anything.

The Bible does not tell one story. There are two different creation stories, for instance, in Genesis.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/2cs.htm

WHICH CREATION STORY?
Rev. James W. Watkins
Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?

For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.

The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.

The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.

This is scholarly work. I'm not having to invent or figure out anything; these are well established concepts. In this case, even if you believe one of these is literal truth, the other cannot be; they contradict each other. So which will it be?

[zeemike]

149. And there is also very little evidence that thy are related

to other stories.....Did you know that the native Americans also have a flood story that is similar to the Noah one....did they hear it from the Norse or the Jews? Is there any evidence of that?
And scholarly or not there is little evidence to support the idea that it was derived from several sources other than scholars looking at the text and saying that one is more developed than the other, and concluding from that they came from different sources....nothing there but guess work to support a dogma.

The truth is that the text has been copied thousands of times because paper and materials used then did not last that long and they had to be re copied....which leads to the next conclusion, that sense it was coppied over and over there must have been mistakes, and writers adding to or taking away from it....but what facts we have proves othewise....the dead sea scrolls gave evidence that the parts they recovered did not change at all, but are word for word like the present day.
But that conclusion dose not fit the theory so it is ignored.

But really I don't care at all whether you believe it or not...it does not matter no more than the spiritual stories of Native Americans or the Eastern mystics....what matters is the story, whether it is true or not.
And there is no reason to make it into something that it is not, just to satisfy your own beliefs and dogmas.
It is not the Machiavellian story you make it out to be.

[mbperrin]

150. Did you read the contradictory stories from genesis or no?

nt

[zeemike]

151. I have read it and see no contradiction.

But then I have no agenda that requires me to find them. That leaves me free to consider the story and what it says.

[mbperrin]

153. Good day. I thought that I had been wasting my time for a bit, and now I know so.

Have fun there in the badlands of New Mexico.

[zeemike]

154. These are not bad lands.

I kind of like them.

[Arugula Latte]

95. Zeemike -- you have GOT to be kidding.

The Bible is full of blood, gore, rape, incest, smiting, bludgeoning. It's a filthy, bloody, violent and sexually depraved book.

[zeemike]

122. That may well be true

But it is because some of us are filthy, bloody,violent and sexually depraved.
You seem to imply that the bible is a book that tells us how god wants us to behave....and that is just not true.
Most of it is history and the accounts of the lives of certain people, whether you think it accurate or not.

[Mariana]

124. But it does tell us how God wanted those people to behave.

Plenty of that filth, blood, violence and depravity was done on God's direct orders, or by God himself.

[zeemike]

134. Ok have it your way

But I have read it and I don't see it that way at all.
But then my understanding of it comes from reading and understanding the STORY not the dogmatic presentation of a bunch of fundies.
You are not angry at a book, there is more to it than that.

[Hekate]

146. Have you read it all the way through? Yikes: the part about smashing the Babylonian babies...

For some reason I decided to read it all the way through on my own when I was about 9 years old; I did get bogged down in King James' English, but made pretty good headway. Still, even in antique English as a kid it's pretty startling to read some of that stuff. Someone's enemies were "stricken with emerods"? (hemorrhoids)

At the top of each page was a little editorial header supposedly telling the reader how this OT passage related to the NT, among other things. Was someone trying not to laugh when they described the Song of Solomon as Christ's Love for His Church? That sticks with me -- in a love duet between Bride and Bridegroom that is as sexy as it gets.

Psalm 137 started out rather comforting to me when I was terribly homesick at 19, but a distinct chill set in when I got to the end. Say what? (see below)

The dedication of the first traveling Temple and its Ark was a thoroughly bloody affair involving much animal sacrifice and "purification" by sprinkling everything in sight with it. That I read in modern English as an adult, and that's when I really got it. Well, animal sacrifice, wonder when we finally gave that up?

Then there's the story of Susannah and the Elders -- they played Peeping Tom and then accused her of lechery.

Of course, who can forget that God told the Hebrews to depopulate the Promised Land of its natives before settling themselves into it.

The Christian version of the Bible as it has come down to us in all its edited glory is just chockfull of sex and violence.

I'm not anti-Christian or anti-Jewish in any sense; and although I do have issues with our own Talibornagains I make a distinction between them and other Christians.

Anyhow, great set of books, the Bible. It has a lot to tell us about humanity and the god(s) humanity sees in the world. Just not something you want your kids to read without an adult present to explain some of the stuff.

Hekate

http://niv.scripturetext.com/psalms/137.htm
New International Version
Psalm 137

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
4 How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget .
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us—
9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

[MARALE]

148. I have read much of the Bible as well

The part that really disturbed me was the part where a man took in 2 strangers and the town wanted the strangers to do horrible things to. The man instead gave the towns people his wife to have their way with. After they were done with here, she tried to crawl back to the house, but the door was locked and she died on the doorstep. the man then cut her up and sent pieces of her to different officials to show his dismay. I really was disturbed by that. The man was supposedly good because he offered his wife and protected the strangers.

[Rudy Adams]

38. Loved the movie!

If you've not seen it yet, rent it!

[villager]

40. It's great stuff, and sorry, fundies, I've already used parts of it in my Sunday school class

n/t

[Occulus]

72. You should.

Those first several pages are wonderful illustrations in and of themselves. I might get a copy of this.

[stlsaxman]

42. i HAVE to buy this!!!!!

BIG R. Crumb fan from way back with Zap Comix...

[stlsaxman]

45. Having read the excerpts i must say- that "God" guy is a mean son-of-a-bitch!

[The Green Manalishi]

Crumb is the greatest portrayer of the human figure in line

since Rembrandt. The guy can capture as much or more passion and pathos with just a pen or pencil than nearly anyone in the last 500 years. Just because he does some funny stuff, and has a healthily heretical sense of humor that manages to offend the slower minds of the last 40 years, shouldn't mean the almost erie ability he has to capture the essence of a real or fictional character is overlooked.

[TrogL]

112. ARE YOU INSANE!!!

People do NOT look like this.

I've had nightmares about his out-of-proportion feet, huge tits and everything else since he first started drawing.

[The Green Manalishi]

47. Crumb is the greatest portrayer of the human figure in line

since Rembrandt. The guy can capture as much or more passion and pathos with just a pen or pencil than nearly anyone in the last 500 years. Just because he does some funny stuff, and has a healthily heretical sense of humor that manages to offend the slower minds of the last 40 years, shouldn't mean the almost erie ability he has to capture the essence of a real or fictional character is overlooked.

[dipsydoodle]

49. Slightly off topic

Check out his Cheap Suit Seranaders smetime - beautiful music. :)

My Girl's Pussy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grrp6mxrY5Y

[Brother Buzz]

99. My favorite Cheap Suit Serenaders song is 'Get A Load of This'

Written and performed by cheap suit members Robert Armstrong and Al Dodge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV6EaqS1F2I

Armstrong, a fine cartoonist, created of Mickey Rat and was never sued by Disney®:

[Tab]

50. Ha ha

Good ol' R. Crumb

[OwnedByFerrets]

54. Fundys are so very spineless

:evilgrin:

[martymar64]

55. Another great Crumb story online - Charley Patton

http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/patton1.htm

[Turbineguy]

56. They can always say:

"Go fuck yourself. Do it today!"

[DissedByBush]

57. I guess they don't want people to realize

that the Bible is so full of explicit sex and horrific violence that it would receive an X rating if made into a movie that followed the text exactingly.

[Cartoonist]

58. Premature review

I'm only about half way through it, but I can say that the artwork is tremendous. As for explicit, how else are you going to illustrate Lot having sex with his daughters? That's what the fundies are really railing against. They don't want their sheep to know how twisted and misogynistic the bible really is.

[slay]

62. Finally - a version of the bible worth reading

:evilgrin:

[yellowcanine]

64. I just read Crumb's version for the articles.

[Psephos]

65. Compare this thread to threads regarding the Danish publication of Islamic cartoons

For example,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2086241

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2087629

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2078241


lol So much for the "principles" being expressed by a number of posters here.

But it IS entertaining, so I really can't complain. ;)

[Cartoonist]

66. What's your point?

There is no comparison. Crumb is not insulting anyone's religion, he is doing what he considers to be a faithful adaptation.

[Psephos]

68. You do realize that Crumb is forbidden by Islamic law to even draw a likeness of Mohammed, right?

And, as I said, I'm just hanging around on this one for the entertainment...so thank YOU for the straight-faced delivery on the idea that depicting Lot fucking his daughters in an illustrated Bible is not insulting to Christians. Because, ya know, as long it's a faithful representation according to the artist, it's de facto not insulting, right? ;)

The mind wobbles at the exponential application of the Law of Unintended Consequences should that idea be taken seriously.

BTW, I'm a big Crumb fan...he hooked me with Ghost World. I still have the Crumb documentary on laserdisc. Cost me 70 bucks, when 70 bucks was actually worth something.

On edit:

Hey, lemme know your opinion on the parity of Insulting "Xtians" vs. Insulting the Prophet after taking a quick look at this vid:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/669521/76c2a9da/haatbaarden_in_engeland_tegen_wilders.html

[shadowknows69]

77. I don't think Crumb had anything to do with "Ghost World"

[Psephos]

92. The character "Seymour" (Steve Buscemi) is Terry Zwigoff's homage to Crumb.

Zwigoff directed the Crumb doc I referenced earlier.

The writer of GW, Dan Clowes, emulated Crumb in his original graphic novel and in the the script for GW.

Ghost World is Crumb World.

[Brother Buzz]

102. Terry Zwigoff played cello in Crumb's band Cheap Suit Serenaders

Terry Zwigoff, Robert Armstrong, Al Dodge, Robert Crumb

[Psephos]

106. Seriously, can you imagine how whacked-out fun it would be to hear them? :) nt

[Brother Buzz]

115. They get together and perform about once a year minus Crumb - great music

The Berkeley Freight and Salvage in Berkeley, California tries to book them at least once a year. The absence of Crumb is not a big detraction because he was always the weakest musician of the group. The Suits have performed with about six members for the last three decades.

The eclectic musical instruments that arrive with the group is extraordinary; Stroh violin, tenor and baritone saw, accordion, National Steel Ukulele, National Steel guitar, National Banjo-Uke to name a few...

[Cartoonist]

85. Ghost Book

If christians are insulted by drawings of Lot fucking his daughters, then they are insulted by the bible, not Crumb.

[ck4829]

67. What Bible are these Christians reading exactly?

The Bible was full of sex and violence way before Mr. Crumb came along.

[Are_grits_groceries]

71. Did they redact "Song of Solomon" from their Bible? nt

[depakid]

73. Some excerts from an interview with R. Crumb about the work:

To take this as a sacred text, or the word of God or something to live by, is kind of crazy," Crumb, 66, says in a rare telephone interview from his home in southern France.

"So much of it makes no sense. To think of all the fighting and killing that's gone on over this book, it just became to me a colossal absurdity. That's probably the most profound moment I've had — the absurdity of it all."

Those are hardly the words of a modern-day St. Augustine or any of the Talmudic scholars, Christian commentators, historians or ordinary faithful who view the Bible as the Word of God and who accept its mysteries as the beginning, not the end, of enlightenment.

"If people of faith say what I've done is blasphemous or profane, I'd shrug my shoulders and say, 'I just illustrated what is there,' " Crumb says. "I'm not ridiculing it, just illustrating the exact words that are there. I restrained myself. I really didn't want to make visual jokes about it. I hope people see it for what it is."

Many are surprised that Crumb, who in the 1960s infused comics with sex- and drug-addled characters like Mr. Natural and Fritz the Cat, and catchphrases such as "Keep on truckin', " would this time play it so straight. But the long-lapsed American Catholic depicts the shared roots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam without comment or his usual ironic judgment.

Each Crumb panel is a detailed biblical tableau, down to the endless "begats" that fill the pages with tiny portraits of tribal sons and desert chieftains.

...It was hard to draw God," the reclusive cartoonist says about his latest project, which begins at the Beginning, with Creation itself.

"Should God just be a bright light? Should I use word balloons? Should God be a woman?" Crumb says the answer came to him in a dream.

"I ended up with the old stereotypical Charlton Heston kind of God, long beard, very masculine. I used a lot of white-out, a lot of corrections when I tried to draw God."

...As source material for Genesis, Crumb used the text of the King James Bible and a 2004 translation called The Five Books of Moses by scholar Robert Alter, who has praised Crumb's effort as "bold." Alter's translation of ancient Hebrew is sometimes surprising — Jacob's ladder becomes Jacob's ramp, for example — but rarely strays far from the traditional story lines of the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.

"Alter's version is just very clear," Crumb says. "But I still retained some of the language of the King James version, things like, 'And behold!' If you take that stuff out, you lose some of the poetry."

The project began as a satire on Adam and Eve, but Crumb got a "really good offer" to do a much larger take on the Bible. He switched to research mode, delving into ancient Sumerian myths, North African cultures and obscure Hebrew translations.

Crumb is suspicious of the centuries of rewrites that have changed what "seems indeed to be an inspired work."

The pivotal role of Abraham's wife, Sarah, he believes, was downgraded by the priests of ancient times. "Over the centuries, the stories of the matriarchal society of the Sumerians got all twisted around."

But he says he "had to resist the urge to load it up with a lot of footnotes."

Crumb calls the book "a straight illustration job" and says he relied on friends, experts, even Hollywood movies to come up with the look of the peoples, the clothing and the backgrounds.

"Isaac," he says. "is based on an old guy who lives near here who's a Jew from Algeria."

More: http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2009-10-18-r-crumb-old-testament_N.htm

[and-justice-for-all]

81. I am gonna get me a copy of that gem!!! woohoo!!!

:applause:

[leveymg]

83. The body types and fetishes will be familiar to all R. Crumb fans; e.g.,

[comtec]

91. Mental note... BUY a copy before it's banned and burned!

this sounds entertaining :)
And I want crumb to get his money because I want him to know this is something I support!

I have no problem with a graphic, honest depiction of the bible.
The bible it self is rather graphic.

[MellowDem]

97. It will only upset the fringe...

most could care less about it, and I'm sure a few will buy a copy for themselves and have a chuckle!

[Arugula Latte]

98. Love these quotes from R. Crumb:

Crumb has said he does not believe the Bible is the word of God. ''I take it all for myth from start to finish, with probably some faint relation to historical reality,'' he said.

''They're great stories. But for people to take texts as something sacred, handed down from God … that's pretty backward.''

:toast:

[Brother Buzz]

100. To those who might be offended Crumb's work had stated that he hadn't set out to offend anyone but

"You can't please everyone".

[valerief]

104. If that Mel Gibson Jesus movie wasn't titillation for S&M/Torture Christians, then

I don't know what is.

[bluescribbler]

105. I can't wait

Can't wait for him to do the Song of Solomon. :popcorn:

[Reader Rabbit]

109. This thread is useless without pictures.

Surprised I'm the first one to say it! Where's the biblical smut? Let us be the judges as to whether it's gratuitous and titillating!
:P

[NoodleyAppendage]

110. Just bought my copy at Amazon. Thanks, dumbass fundies!

I had no clue this was available until now...thanks to the typical complaining from fundies. Can't wait to read my copy and make it available to the kids when they become curious about that Santa-surrogate named, "God."

[gatorboy]

114. Heard Crumb talking about this this morning.

Looks like Eve was built just for Crumb. :P

Not the first cartoon version to upset the fundies. I suggest to anyone interested in this to look for Larry Gonick's CARTOON HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE. A great illustrated book that takes a more literal look into the history in the Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/0385265204/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_1?ie=UTF8&index=1

[hedgehog]

119. Also in the news: teenager with purple and green striped hair and 12 visible piercings

complains people keep staring at him.

[alfredo]

125. I bought it today

[hollowdweller]

128. Loved his work for years.

This one looks like a must have.

[wordpix]

129. +1

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

138. never could get past Crumb's rampant racism and misogyny

i love indie comics, but he always struck me as a vile guy and yet another boomer icon I fail to understand the idolization of

[mdmc]

147. I have r.c's "Big Art Book" coffeetable book

He talks a bit about those things about him that you don't like.

At one point he wonders "Why would I want to put this stuff out to the public?"

[and-justice-for-all]

152. Get a copy at tfaw.com

www.tfaw.com