Cannibis smokers have a seven-fold schizophrenia risk

[time_has_come]

Source: Canadian Press

...
Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society, said the public doesn't realize that cannabis users have a seven-fold increase in risk of developing schizophrenia.

He pointed to recent research out of Victoria, B.C., linking pot smoking and mental illness.
...
"Science has shown that cannabis may actually trigger the onset of psychosis and may also intensify the symptoms for those who already have a psychotic illness," Smith said in announcing the grant.

"It has been suggested that up to 80 per cent of youth who have had a psychotic episode were using cannabis. And that's pretty shocking," said Smith, who was filling in for Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq at news conference.


Read more: http://www.thestar.com/mindmood/mentalhealth/article/682905

---

What a draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag.

[JeffR]

1. Ludicrous

:eyes:

[time_has_come]

19. A friend of mine had a psychotic episode after getting stoned. Ended up in a mental ward for several

weeks.

[Mythsaje]

29. Happened to a friend of mine too...

Of course the stuff was laced, but...

[mdmc]

36. if your friend was diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizo-effective disorder

it was not caused by smoking pot. The pot only triggers the latent disease, it did not cause it.

[time_has_come]

39. Sure, it triggered it. Maybe if he had never smoked pot it would never have happened.

I don't think the article is saying the study found that pot is the underlying cause of psychotic episodes or schizophrenia, only that it triggers it and results in a greater (7 times greater) chance of having such an episode.

[mdmc]

54. eventually it would have manifested due to stress or some other factor

Let me put it another way - if you are not born with schizophrenia, you would not develop schizophrenia from smoking pot.

If you are born with schizophrenia, you will eventually exhibit symptoms of the illness. Pot triggers these symptoms in people that already have the illness. A schizophrenic cannot avoid symptoms by avoiding pot. Schizophrenics are born with the illness.

Pot is very dangerous to someone with a perception illness like schizophrenia. I strongly advise all schizophrenics and people suffering from schizo-effective disorder to avoid pot entirely.

[time_has_come]

58. What are your expertise/credentials to make statements like that? n/t

[mdmc]

94. I will pm ya my friend

peace and low stress

[pattmarty]

155. Exactly what are yours? Quoting a report that has not even been started yet.

AND, the "someone says" 7 times more blah, blah. You're against marijuana, just come out and say it and cut your bullshit. You'll get more respect here if you do.

[time_has_come]

184. The news item references research already done, as well as research to come.

[pattmarty]

201. You better re-read your article (maybe while un-high) then.

.............It says a study commissioned by the government to BE DONE, not done yet. Unless you're referring to other (unsubstantiated or unreferenced)"quotes" in the article. So, the only news is the study TO BE DONE, commissioned by the government to be used as anti drug government handouts (propaganda). Nothing to see here, move on.

[time_has_come]

230. The article also contains references to research that has BEEN DONE.

That is where the 7-fold incidence increase result is attributed to.

[matt819]

233. Look at the source of funding

it's from a government anti=drug program. hmmm. vested interest in the results? When it shows up in NEJM or Lancet, then I'll believe it.

[time_has_come]

252. We don't know what the source of funding for the completed research was...and regardless...

...just because something is funded by government doesn't mean it's got no credibility.

Scientists and researchers are not always selling out or coming up with results that a government likes just because they've been funded by government.

The Harper government would LOVE to have some of the scientists on it's payroll come up with some findings that man isn't causing global warming, but it hasn't happened. And yet they fund the research.

[Joe Fields]

282. It mentions alleged research done. Twice. But neither time did they

reference it. We know nothing about the dynamics of the research, who funded it, so all we know is that this organization, with its hand out, asking for a half million dollar grant SAYS that "earlier" research suggests that...etc...

Means absolutely nothing to me on face value. Other than you have a conservative Canadian government that is out to demonize pot again.

[time_has_come]

318. True, the research is not cited, but it is the Canadian Press, so you can be assured...

..that the research exists.

News organizations throughout Canada use CP standards. It is a well-respected organization that upholds the highest standards of journalism.

I have no doubt that the research occurred and was performed by professionals and there is no reason to doubt their integrity.

That said, you are right that we don't know any details such as sample, methods, etc. Still, it should mean something to you. Characterizing this as the simply the fruit of a "Conservative government out to demonize pot" is not an intellectually honest stance.

[taggline]

98. This is a true statement...

My son developed symptoms around his 15th birthday, (we had no clue why he was acting so 'weird'...chalked it up to teen stuff)...He went into full blown psychosis after graduating HS, entered college, and started living the life of a party-school freshman. Cannabis is a psychotropic drug...the the stuff they were typically smoking (the "Kynd"), was real high grade weed (not the stuff I smoked back when 'lids' were $15). I can't begin to tell you the agony that he suffered, that he continues to suffer...and that has ripped our family to shreds. The irony is...now he's on even more 'designer' therapeutic drugs (Depakote and Zyprexa) that will eventually ruin his hepatic system...

[Fire1]

109. I KNEW IT!!!! I just alluded to this on a Wood stock thread!!

The 'stuff' these young folks are classifying as 'weed' is anything BUT!! Hell yeah, it's more potent cause it's got CHEMICALS in it!
Our shit was a straight out of the earth plant that we lit. Side effects: hungry, happy, sleepy. THAT IS ALL!!!

[Boku-Wa]

167. Wrong! Much of the available pot is more potent because of the

care that goes in to growing it, like special seed lines, segregating female & male plants, special grow lights, etc.

Please, stop with the DARE scare tactics.

Yes, it's more potent, like liquor has a higher alcohol content. But the solution is simple, JUST SMOKE LESS!

[Fire1]

169. They're not scare tactics and special seed lines, I bet! n/t

[Wizard777]

174. Yes they are Hybrid seed lines. The pot back in 60's was about 8% THC.

The Hybrids can go as high as 26% THC. Marijuana botany has come along way since the 60's.

[ImOnlySleeping]

236. spoon fed

This is how Republicans work, spoon feed plucked research and present that as fact, and those numbers are real, but they aren't representative.
Feel free to hunt down that info, as previously suggested, and see if it holds any water statistically.

[Boku-Wa]

188. You can 'believe' what you wish, but you're wrong. All you need to do

is google the subject. I also forgot to include plant 'cloning', which is more predictable

I hope your not as stubborn as that mule!

[Kevin_X2]

371. I love watching people who have no idea what their talking about try and talk like they know somethi

ng. The fact that your still supporting your ignorant claim, and still havent bothered to do any sort of research, is typical of your types. The FACT is that dope is more potent due to peoples intense care and modern growing methods, and with really higher-ups they genetically engineer new strains. Its people like you that ruin debate on these forums.

There's just as many pesticides on your tomatoes. Not every "drug dealer" is out to getcha! Dont quit your day-job.

[Fire1]

392. The research to which I devote my time will certainly not

include marijuana and it's variety of types and strains. My conversational exchange is based on what I knew back in the day. I'm not a connoisseur, don't want to be and don't claim to be. My post was light hearted as this subject is just not that deep or significant to me.

You, with all of four posts, have a lot of fuckin nerve telling any fuckin body about ruining a goddamn debate! You DID have the choice to skip the thread, ass hole!

[Boku-Wa]

418. My, no need to resort to name calling. All I'm suggesting is back-off

when you post something that's off base and it's pointed out to you. You don't need to defend the indefensible.

[Fire1]

426. You need to read through threads more carefully. My

last response post was not directed at you.

[Joe Fields]

286. Thank you for setting him straight. Now I don't have to.

[Boku-Wa]

419. Wish it was that simple! He's a stubborn one.

[The Wizard]

273. It all started 41 years ago

when word got out about smoking banana skins. The rocky road that lay ahead was saturated with land mines also known as illegal substances. The horror, the horror. Then we got sanctioned drugs like Prozak. So now millions of people are hooked on psychotropics sold by corporations that make large profits and campaign contributions sometimes called bribes.
God Damn The Pusher Man.

[Le Taz Hot]

359. I'm not sure what chemical-laden pot

you've been smoking but the VAST majority of pot around here is lovingly grown indoors, under grow lights and with NO chemicals. In fact non-organically grown pot would be considered a BIG no-no in the growing community. The stuff we are smoking certainly is weed -- cannibus sativa and cannibus endica -- same stuff that's been around for thousands of years. "Our shit" (yes, I was there), was chock full of seeds and stems and you'd end up throwing half of it away because it was unsmokable. The only thing left with that description is ditch weed (usually from Mexico) and no self-respecting pot smoker is going to cough their way through that shit. And it's more potent because there are thousands of new strains, not because of "chemicals."

[dysfunctional press]

364. bullshit.

"it's more potent cause it's got CHEMICALS in it!" :eyes:

the main chemical being thc.

[etherealtruth]

151. How old is your son now?

I realize that individual experiences vary greatly ... My son developed the same issues when he was 16. He (we) went through several years of hell.

After years of ever changing drug therapies and treatment by skilled mental health professionals .... he became symptom free and has been for the past 7 years (he's almost 28). He survived an horrific car accident (he was not the driver) and remained symptom free ... sometimes, there really is hope.

[pnwmom]

294. So sorry, taggline.

There's nothing worse than having to suffer along with our children.

[merwin]

299. Do you realize that many mental illnesses don't manifest

until the mid to late teenage years, drugs or not? A good number of people in my family have clinical depression and/or anxiety, a couple more with bipolar and a schizophrenic uncle... none of which were present as children and most of them had no drug use at onset.

After onset there was drug use by several, but that goes along with the nature of mental disorders.

There is no actual scientific evidence that the chemicals in marijuana trigger the onset of mental disorders. Until scientists can pinpoint what chemical supposedly triggers it and have hard data that proves the chemical reaction in the brain that triggers onset, all you are actually left with is correlation. And that correlation could easily be reversed to say that 80 percent of people with schizophrenia have used marijuana, therefore schizophrenia causes drug use.

This article is backed up with fake science that proves nothing other than people with mental disorders have a high risk of drug use.

To actually prove this you would have to follow a group of people in their early teens who do not know what the study is regarding, test them regularly for drug use, and have them evaluated by a psychiatrist often for several years. That is the only way to know when the mental illness is triggered s well as when the drug use is started. If thre are asignificant number of people who develop schizophrenia within a short period of time of initial drug use then maybe they would be on to something... There are too many variables and unknowns in the current study to prove anything.

Otherwise it's just a trumped up pile of shit that holds as much validity as those who claim they got the flu due to getting a flu shot.

[winyanstaz]

304. amen

[AngryAmish]

428. word

I don't smoke pot and it has been my experience that people who smoke tons of pot are losers.

BUT

I think scare mongering with phony science is terrible. You nailed it.

[d_r]

131. with the relative anonymity of the internet

I'll say this. When I was a kid I smoked a lot of pot without having psychotic breaks. I've lost complete touch with reality probably 1/2 dozen or so times in my life. Usually those involved lots of alcohol mixed with pot, but there was always pot involved. I've also had psychotic spells from huffing gas without pt and from smoking tea (pot with pcp on it) without alcohol. I've always regained reality by the time I woke up the next morning. I'm old enough now that I haven't smoked any serious dope in 20 years. But I would smoke it a good bit in high school, etc.

I've certainly had milder symptoms of schizophrenia - paranoia, delusional thinking - I mean out there delusions - from smoking pot. These weren't a total break from reality. What I am talking about above is being completely out of touch with reality. I guess I've had an acid trip or two come to think about it. But my point is, I am not psychotic at all in day to day life, I never have been without some dope. I don't hallucinate, I don't have delusional thoughts, I'm in total touch with reality.

Anecdote, fwiw.

[mdmc]

159. thanks for sharing

peace and low stress

[Zhade]

315. There's no evidence those delusions were because of pot.

NT!

[LisaL]

213. What evidence have you got to support your statements?

Why are you claiming that someone is born with schizophrenia?
This disease usually doesn't even develop until someone is in his or her teens.

[Zhade]

317. Um, it's called genetics. "Runs in the family" ring a bell?

NT!

[mdmc]

366. At this time there is only one proven cause

heredity.

[TuxedoKat]

241. I'm curious too.

I didn't think they knew what caused schizophrenia. I know in some cases it is hereditary, but
aren't their other theories about its causes as well, such as viruses or certain childhood illnesses?

I haven't read anything about it in awhile though, so I'm not up on all the current info on schizophrenia.
Someone close to me wsa diagnosed with it once.

[winyanstaz]

306. I believe it is caused by asshole parents that dont give a shit..

just my own opinion on this.... :)

[TuxedoKat]

382. Hmm...

that opinion went out in the '50s or '60s, but I guess you were trying to be funny.

I hope you never have anyone close to you suffer from this disease. The drugs are often ineffective
or the side effects are so bad the patients won't take the drugs. Medical professionals are often
indifferent too and the patients won't let you help them either sometimes, especially went they haven't
received adequate help in the past. It's sad to watch someone you love die a slow torturous death
because they won't get help or let others help them.

Have a nice day.

[winyanstaz]

410. I am sorry if you had a loved one suffer. I was once married to a man that had this problem....

I still believe it was his crazy parents that started him on the road. As a child he was beaten one day for the same thing he was allowed to do or praised for the next...no wonder he had problems.
He committed suicide in the va after they locked him up because he became violent.
I also have dealt with a lot of run aways and teenagers that are messed up from parents...so that is what prompted the post...not an attempt to be funny.
have a nice day also.

[TuxedoKat]

412. Hey...

I may have overreacted here, so I'm sorry. I have had a few people snark on me in the past at DU for
no good reason except it seemed they wanted to be mean and since this is a subject near and dear
to my heart, and yours too I see, I'm overly sensitive about it.

I'm sorry about your ex-husband. The VA let my loved one down too, although he has received some
good care at some of their hospitals.

I agree with you too about parents messing up their kids. I don't necessarily think that it could
cause schizophrenia except maybe it could in some extreme cases, but having a difficult childhood
where one is not raised with adequate skills to deal with problems later on, makes it VERY difficult
to treat that person for schizophrenia if they develop it later on. Thanks for writing back and clarifying.

[eShirl]

427. not in my brother's case

our parents were/are great

[mdmc]

367. heredity is the proven cause

everything else (virus, illness, abuse) are speculation.

[noiretextatique]

397. my nephew is schizophrenic...so was his father

and two of his father's three sisters. our family (his mom, my sis) has no history of schizophrenia. heredity is clearly the only (known) cause.

[Winterblues]

72. I have witnessed for more of such behavior with alcohol usage.

I think this study is more bogus than the old Canard that pot is a gateway drug...

[Forkboy]

119. Seeing too many Republicans can trigger that too.

[Joe Fields]

281. Um, the article doesn't say ANYTHING about the (alleged) research

that was supposedly done to support them holding their hands out and asking for a half million dollar grant.

The article mentions twice that earlier research done in Victoria suggests that...etc...BUT they don't reference the research that was supposedly done. Frankly, I find this to be an effort on the part of the conservative Canadian government to demonize pot again. Let's face it, scientists have been studying the longterm effects of prolonged marijuana use and have yet to come up with any conclusive findings. This has been going on now for four decades.

Again, I scream bullshit on this article.

[shugah]

284. i don't think the article is actually saying anything at all

there is nothing in the article to support the headline.

sorry about your friend.

[Duval]

147. My husband is a psychiatrist, and

totally agrees with you!

[Maraya1969]

209. I had horrible feelings of unreality from pot and now I have panic

disorder with the worst symptom being a feeling of unreality. My doctor told me that certain people who have a tendency toward biological panics can be made worse by smoking pot.

I am pissed that so many people unrecommended this thread. I recommended it and it is still below zero.

Pot is a drug that is beneficial to many people but just like any drug it can cause problems. Just like aspirin is a wonder drug for your heart it can be hurtful for people with bleeding problems.

I wish pro-pot people will be more realistic and not think it is without potential problems.

[Flatulo]

225. I had the same experience as you!

I tried smoking pot a few times in high school and college - each time I had a horrible panic attack that lasted for hours. After each attack, I told myself that there was something wrong with the weed, but each and every adventure had the same outcome - massive panic attack with complete and utter terror for hours.

When I got older (21~ish), I began to have panic attacks on a regular basis without any stimulants. I have been battling this for over 30 years. I take medication every day and can function normally, but I continue to experience dread and unease at fairly normal everyday activities (driving over bridges, flying, etc).

I don't blame the pot - I may just be wired this way. But for me, pot is a nightmare from hell. My son seems to have inherited my general disposition, so I strongly counsel him to avoid it, and so far he has.

Good luck with your panic disorder. It's notoriously difficult to treat without meds.

[Maraya1969]

396. I am really sorry you have this. It is Hell with a capital FUCK.

The one self help program that helped me more than anything is called Recovery Inc. They have a website. Basically the man who developed it around 1930 was, in my mind the father of cognitive therapy.

I do take medicine and have taken it for years. I also have bipolar so that adds to the mess.

[Flatulo]

413. Thankfully my wife and son are very very understanding...

They know that fairly mundane tasks such as going to the airport can be very difficult for me. I do it anyway, but they know I am stressing and do their best to help me along.

As you no doubt know, the worst of the problem is the *expectation* that an attack can occur. It's like you can never let down your guard. This sets up a positive feedback loop whereby the fear of the panic attack now becomes the primary trigger.

Good luck with this fucker of a condition. I'm going on 32 years with it, about 25 under pretty good control/

Peace!

[Zhade]

320. We ARE realistic. It's the anti-pot ignorant who are the real problem.

Without marijuana, I'd be going blind. My own doctors told me this, and we have documented evidence it improved my eyesight.

Pot has never been shown to cause schizophrenia. Period. To pretend otherwise is a lie.

[gbate]

379. Same thing happened to me. It is not without its problems.

[pnwmom]

291. So what? If something -- like the flu -- triggers latent asthma or Celiac disease,

the person is still stuck with a life long condition that may not have occurred if the person hadn't been exposed to that trigger at that point in time.

With most diseases, a genetic predisposition doesn't guarantee that a person will develop the condition; a trigger is often the proximate cause.

Anyone with a family history of schizophrenia or a personal history of panic or anxiety disorders would be well advised to steer clear of pot.

[Zhade]

322. EPIC FAIL. My own doctors know I have a family history of schizophrenia, and they RECOMMEND pot.

You're so wrong on this it's not even funny. I appreciate the concern, but it's misplaced.

[pnwmom]

341. Doctors can disagree, even looking at the same research. Plus, your doctors know

about your specific circumstances, which may make marijuana use advisable in your case.

[Zhade]

407. The point is, if there was evidence it caused schizophrenia, they'd tell me.

There isn't. Period. Correlation is not causation.

[jobycom]

66. Happened to my brother, too. He's still an invalid.

Tried to kill me at least twice after that, but that's another story.

[Bonobo]

112. LOL. Perhaps your friend did. Perhaps not. But it had nothing to do with cannabis.

Silly rabbit.

[time_has_come]

153. Perhaps he did not? WTF are you talking about?

Your statement is rude and offensive. And you know less than nothing to say it had nothing to do with cannabis.

If your goal was to be a jerk and offend me, you succeeded.

[Bonobo]

163. Mission accomplished! nt

[time_has_come]

192. Although it's likely...

..you were a jerk before you wrote that. So your mission was unnecessary.

[pnwmom]

342. You can't know that, because you don't know the person or the situation. n/t

[frylock]

384. you can't know that, because you don't know the person or the situation..

the same can be said of the test subjects. think about that.

[pnwmom]

385. I didn't say that, you did. n/t

[frylock]

387. i copied and pasted your reply to Bonobo!

so not knowing the "person or situation" applies only when it fits your viewpoint? or can you admit that you don't know what controls were applied to this study, which by the way, NOBODY can find any reference to aside from the article in the OP.

[pnwmom]

389. The difference is that I never made a claim one way or another -- Bonobo did.

I believe that without knowing more about the study, or about an individual case, no claim can be made.

Bonobo asserted otherwise.

[NoSheep]

265. Many folks have psychotic episodes who have never smoked.

That's what I hate about statistics...they are never conclusive. That being said, if you aren't in good mental health, don't self medicate. Also: stay away from schools, churches, jobs, automobiles, smog, crowded places, assholes, airports, community watch meetings, libraries, video games, sex, the Katskills, fatty foods, sugar, caffiene, people who speak a foreign language, mixed nuts, op-ed columns, hospitals, YOUR FAMILY, Wal-Mart, the local US post office, automated phone answering services, bus stations, nursing homes, funeral homes, grave yards, Tela-Tubbies, biker bars, Vegas, South Carolina, Virginia, Arizona, Colorado, and especially OKLAHOMA CITY for fuck sake.

[Greyskye]

425. +5

:rofl: :thumbsup: :rofl:

[HughMoran]

283. I came so close to falling over the edge last time I smoked (couple of years ago)

I swore off pot for the rest of my life. I don't need to go crazy, thank you very much.

[Joe Fields]

288. It's not for everyone. But very few people who smoke go crazy.

[HughMoran]

292. I smoked an awful lot of pot in my life

The pot today is so strong and my aging body just can't handle it any more. The mental overload from my last experience was awful. I locked all the doors in my house, curled up into a paranoid ball in my bed and prayed that time would speed up so I could regain control of my mind and body. It was awful.

[Zhade]

323. nm

nm

[grahamhgreen]

301. Delete

[grahamhgreen]

302. A friend of mine had one after drinking - is there a link?

[gbate]

378. It happened to me. Fortunately not that bad. You never know when it may happen.

I smoked for years beforehand and suffered no ill effects.

[jobycom]

64. Why?

The link between pot usage and psychotic episodes has long been documented. What's not clear is how much pot triggers the episodes, and how much it is the result of people with emerging mental illnesses using pot as a sort of self-medication.

[ShortnFiery]

228. I knew a lot of pot smokers in college but ...

*note: This is JUST MY OPINION - not an expert - just a masters level puke who has worked in the addiction field. This is commentary, not scientific.

After earning scoring a government position as an Alcohol and Drug Abuse "Psychologist" in the beautiful Republic of Panama, I was astounded that only ONE of an entire Brigade of Infantry troops ever tested positive for the entire two years I was assigned in country.

Why?

Marijuana is a mild psychedelic and although readily available, it was the cocaine that could be scored for five bucks and ounce that drew in the abusers, i.e. we were close to a major port and a known trafficing point.

Type A, potentially paranoid people don't "seek out" marijuana because regular smokers sometimes develop amotivational syndrome. What? They don't call it "stoned" for nothing. I haven't tested a large sample but I haven't encountered any regular marijuana users who were what one might term "an intense personality."

I'm not a promoter of marijuana use at all but I think it should be decriminalized because the potential for abuse and addiction is less than that for the LEGAL drug, alcohol.

With regard to the onset of schizophrenia we are back to the old nature vs. nurture debate. Schizophrenia tends to run in families. A person who has this disorder in their family, perhaps should "rethink" using marijuana as it could be an environmental stressor that may be just enough insult to create the right conditions for this disorder to present itself.

A key consideration: Did these researchers control for PURE marijuana usage only? It can easily be laced with "other" illicit drugs? Psychotic episodes have been produced through the use of amphetamines and LSD. That is, the only "self-medication" that the highly functional pot-heads in college were seeking out was for relaxation and escape. :shrug:

[Zhade]

325. Absolute bullshit, of course. Correlation is not causation, as you well know.

There's zero evidence it TRIGGERS anything.

Try again, failmaster.

[Wetzelbill]

156. well if anybody should know....

:)

[awoke_in_2003]

165. That was my first thought...

[JeffR]

187. ffffff...

:smoke:

[stray cat]

202. Because? Do you unlike everyone else know the cause of schizophrenia

if so - please enlight the world with your evidence

[merwin]

274. I bet at least 80 percent also drank soda.

Therefore soda causes it as well.

Correlation does not equal causation. People with mental disorders are more likely to use mind altering substances. That is all that study proves. And even that has been a known fact to anyone with an ounce of common sense for decades.

I would be willing to bet that a significant majority of people with bipolar disorder also have used marijuana as well.

The tendancy for self-medication is built into us as humans as a mechanism to try to bring back the natural balance of chemicals in our brain.

People with clinical depression or anxiety are also more likely to use it because it is a natural anti-anxiety and anti-depressant. The problems come when people use it as a crutch instead of more effective means such as therapy and meditation, which can be combined with marijuana.

Of course, I also think that LSD has an awesome potential for treatment of severe mental disorders when used as a tool by qualified physician under controlled circumstances.

[Turbineguy]

2. Make that

14

[wildbilln864]

3. Bull friggin shit!

[caseymoz]

60. No, no friggin shit. Two people I knew had psychotic episodes from pot.

However, I'd say that people still have a right to use it. I just wish they wouldn't forget that its drug with side effects that could be overused.

[wildbilln864]

223. yeah, some people freak out on aspirin! nt

:rofl:

[Wizard777]

245. I've known people with Kids that bad reactions to red dye. It makes them violent.

If you eliminate all the red dye from the kids diet. He's a well behaved really nice kid. But if he eats red dye. He'll bounce off the walls and obsess on things until he gets violent.

[wildbilln864]

249. that is awful!

Are you pulling my leg?
I remember a 60 minutes segment from years ago where a senator's(IIRC) son was having seizures as many as 100 a day and they couldn't determine the cause. I've been hoping to run across the story again. Anyway, they found out after a long period that just having a certain type of fat in the child's diet completely eliminated the seizures. I wish i could find that piece again.
:hi:

[Wizard777]

266. No I'm serious. The last I heard about that was his doctors were thinking it was an allergy.

Because they found the cause of the symptoms and resolved the symptoms by treating it like an allergy. But all his symptoms were psychological. He doesn't get the typical physical symptoms of an allergic reaction. So the doctors weren't entirely sure it was an allergy. They just knew treating it like an allergy, in avoiding the food item that causes the reaction, works. But there is no shot to counteract his reactions. If he eats red dye. He just has to wait for it to work it's way out of his system and he's nasty until it does.

[Zhade]

326. Sure they did. And you know for a fact it wasn't tainted, for example?

Of course you don't. Hence, your anecdotal "evidence" is useless.

[caseymoz]

353. Fair statement. I don't expect that detail to convince anybody.

I wrote it to convey what I saw, and something about my own experiences that convinced me. One occurred before I began to see scientific reports on the subject, one occurred after I had read some other literature. BTW, I didn't begin to look for studies because of the first friend having a psychotic episode. I just began seeing it reported in and about the scientific literature. The second friend had exactly the sort of anxiety attacks and psychosis I heard described by a clinician on the radio. Afterward, it followed that marijuana didn't do anything for her anymore-- just as that clinician described. In the meantime, it really took her life apart. It was almost like having a case study right after hearing the latest findings from clinical research.

So, I'm pretty well convinced myself that it does have some negative effects and should not be used carelessly. Recreational use should be moderated.

[stray cat]

205. Can you explain your enlightened scientific evidence or are you just making ignorant exclamations?

[caseymoz]

355. I was just waiting for somebody to ask.

Here are some studies from other countries reported on Science Daily, which is hardly a site committed to fighting drugs or fighting for industry. The studies indicating a link between marijuana and risk of psychosis are coming in from all over the world:

This study from Spain indicates that there may be some connection:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325132328.htm

From Melbourne, Australia:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080602160845.htm

Here's one from Britain that is really a review of the data in 35 studies, indicating that marijuana use increases the risk of psychotic illness 41 percent:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070731125526.htm

Another one from Britain indicates a rise in cases of schizophrenia due to marijuana use increasing in that country:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070324132832.htm

Here's a study from Switzerland, indicating that, yes it's cannabis, not any impurities that would cause psychosis:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050419105717.htm

Here's a report of another one from Britain:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041201143205.htm


Here's a domestic study which suggests some important negative changes in the brains of youths from marijuana use:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090202175105.htm

Here's another domestic study linking a principle brain cannabinoid receptor to schizophrenia:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080707161411.htm


Now, that's only the studies from the last several years reported on one site which is definitely not an industry or government shill.

To be fair, there are many stories on that same site about the positive effects of marijuana use. Here are a few:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080626150628.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071024141745.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080307110348.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080720222549.htm

So, basically, it is in many ways beneficial. No drug is going to be beneficial in every way at every dose. On should just be careful, use moderation, and don't over-promote it.

[zappaman]

4. Yeah, right.

I bet 100 per cent of youth who have had a psychotic episode were using water.

[DCKit]

Chicken and Egg Argument.

"People who are prone to schizophrenia more likely to self-medicate" is a far more likely theory.

[time_has_come]

24. But aren't they saying that pot can trigger a psychotic episode?

That's exactly what happened to a friend of mine.

[Oregone]

38. No. It says people on the edge of psychosis feel like smoking pot

Sometime they hop on over, before or after the smoking. Sometimes they also like Slurpees too.

[mdmc]

41. yes that is what they are saying

eventually the psychotic episode would have manifested due to some trigger. But your friend always had the illness, it was in no way caused by the pot.

The illness is one of perception - it is a perception disorder. Pot has a disorganizing effect, thus triggers this illness.

[Zhade]

329. Not so fast. The evidence does not support pot as a trigger.

Correlation is not causation.

[DCKit]

47. Not "An uncle's, friend's twice removed cousin" but a friend? Or PCP laced weed?

Granted, some people might have a different reaction. My own S.O. claims to be allergic and Mom admitted just recently she saw penguins dancing across the yard the one and only time she tried it. Yeah, there wasn't anything in THAT joint, we only had one penguin growing up. Seriously deprived.

If the true statistic were actually valid, there would be about thirty million schizophrenics running around the streets of the U.S. right now.

[caseymoz]

81. One friend I had went to Amsterdam for some heavy smoking.

She came back and had a serious psychotic episode.

People should have the right to smoke pot, but they should never make the mistake that its a completely benevolent drug without side effects, and that it can't be overused. Having the right to it recreationally has no bearing on whether it is totally safe.

I remind you that this is a Canadian study not given to the political divisions over the drug prevalent in the US. In general, the recent research is all indicating that side-effects of pot use are not all good. This is not the only study that has indicated that pot might cause psychosis. Also, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support it (ever hear of paranoia from pot?) I think we are finally getting some impartial studies on about it; and it is too bad the pro-marijuana people are not going to accept the findings for a long time. Most of the studies showing that pot is harmful are now coming from countries in Europe and Canada, not the US where you would expect a bias against pot.

Here are some other studies indicating harm from pot, just from one science news website.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?type=news&keyword=marijuana§ion=all&filename=&period=90&sort=relevance#

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090803123240.htm

This one from Sweden:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090615095940.htm

and here's a study from Spain that basically confirms and goes further than the Canadian did. It indicates that people showing no previous precursors of schizophrenia can become psychotic from pot.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325132328.htm


I've left out any findings from US studies, due to the fact that they are more questionable, and if you do a search on the website, you'll find that studies also indicate some very beneficial medical effects for pot. But no drug can be completely beneficial. It's impossible.

[mdmc]

129. the brain can be harmed by many things

including substance abuse and addiction.

That being said, there is only one proven cause of schizophrenia and schizo-effective disorder - that one cause is heredity.

Pot is very dangerous to those that suffer from perception based illness. And like you said, it can also be beneficial in other cases (Alzheimer's and people suffering from lack of appetite).

[time_has_come]

321. The article didn't cite the research identifying any specific percentage of pot smokers developing

psychosis, so your statement "If the true statistic were actually valid, there would be about thirty million schizophrenics running around the streets of the U.S. right now," is wrong.

[DCKit]

333. "...a seven-fold increase in risk ..."

Given the relatively low number of schizophrenics in comparison to the relatively HUGE number of people who have smoked at least ONCE in their lives, we'd be talking about a "Day of the Dead" situation.

Go try to brainwash someone else.

[time_has_come]

339. I can't teach you math, but understand only that "a seven-fold increase" does not mean a percentage

of all pot smokers will therefore experience psychosis.

I'm being honest with you here. Maybe stow the insults?

[DCKit]

346. Where's the science if they don't know the percentage or numbers of a "seven fold increase"?

Are you saying they just pulled that number out of their asses? That they're ONLY looking at teens and young adults who use weed?

Leave me alone. You bore me.

[time_has_come]

348. You made a poor suposition

and now your mad about it.

A seven-fold increase does not translate into a percentage among total users.

You don't understand that, yet, and that's ok. Numbers are not a simple thing. But don't get mad at and insult me.

[Flaneur]

49. I think that's correct--in someone who has a preexisting condition.

If you're crazy, you probably shouldn't smoke pot.

That said, this whole "cannabis causes schizophrenia" thing seems absurd on the face of it. It's been forty years since pot gained mass popularity. Where are the legions of schizophrenics?

The British have been freaking out over similar allegations, but they are typically overblown. Typical headline: "Cannabis Causes 40% Increase in Schizophrenia Risk" in adolescents who start smoking at an early age. The headline doesn't include that latter qualifier, nor does it explain that the 40% increase means the number of young schizos increases from 1 per 1,000 to 1.4 per 1,000. Nor does it show causation, only correlation.

[mdmc]

59. you got it

1% of the population has schizophrenia or schizo-effective disorder. This percentage does not increase or decrease with changes in pot use in the same population.

[Zhade]

328. There is no evidence to support that allegation.

Not even in the article.

And no, you don't know that's what happened. CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION, for the thousandth fucking time.

[pleah]

5. BS

[Webster Green]

6. Reefer Madness

What a fucking load of crap, as usual. :eyes:

[NoSheep]

269. Again.

:crazy:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. The Harper government is putting up $550,000 to gather research on marijuana use and mental illness.

Says it all to me.

[time_has_come]

17. So...if the Harper government gives money to study climate change, what does that say to you?

Don't do yourself a disservice.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

40. Harper is waging his own political war on drugs in Canada

I realize you may not be familiar with all the ins and outs of his politics. However, this reeks of nothing more than an attempt at political manipulation by Harper to my nose.

[Flaneur]

53. The Harper government is only interested in proving drugs are bad, m'kay?

It is not interested in science. The Vancouver safe injection site has been rigorously studied and found to reduce crime, illness, and other pathologies without increasing drug use, yet the Harper government wants to kill it.

Similarly, the Conservatives are in the midst of a campaign to increase penalties for marijuana production. Any studies they fund are designed to come up with evidence to support that push.

[time_has_come]

63. I'm not saying anything about that. I'm saying this was a scientific study.

The Harper government is also interested in having the issue of climate change just go away. Still, they give money to study it. Not as much as an NDP or Liberal government would give, perhaps, but they still give.

And don't think for a second that an NDP or Liberal government wouldn't be giving money for research such as this also.

Discounting real science because it was funded by a government you don't like is a fools game.

[Flaneur]

75. Uh, there is no science in the article.

There is an unsupported assertion that cannabis causes a seven-fold increase in risk.

There is mention of "recent research out of Victoria, BC, linking pot smoking and mental illness." Note that "link" does not equal "cause." Correlation is not causation.

There is a Winnipeg Conservative MP asserting that science has shown something or another.

The subhead in the article about says it all: "Harper government devotes funds to studying the link between marijuana use and mental illness."

Gee, I wonder what they would find it they studied links between alcohol/nicotine/high fructose corn syrup and mental illness? But they aren't spending any taxpayer money on that, are they?

[time_has_come]

76. research, by scientists, isn't science?

o.k.

[Flaneur]

77. Point me to any actual research findings in the article, please.

[time_has_come]

82. Look at the title. As well, the CEO of the Schizophrenia Society...

is cited in the article as pointing at "recent research" which he says shows a "seven-fold increase" risk in developing schizophrenia.

And then there's this, on the same research:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1202583/How-just-joint-wreck-mental-health.html

The research team from the Institute of Psychiatry at King's College, London, injected the active ingredient of cannabis, THC, into 22 healthy university students and staff, observed their behaviour, and asked them to take tests and answer questionnaires.

Their report, published in the Psychological Medicine journal, said: 'The findings confirm that THC can induce a transient, acute psychotic reaction in psychiatrically well individuals.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1202583/How-just-joint-wreck-mental-health.html#ixzz0OfOKyLQl

So, it is real, published, scientific research.

[Flaneur]

95. I couldn't find the UBC Victoria research mentioned in the article.

But I did find this, from those same folks: http://www.heretohelp.bc.ca/sites/default/files/cannabis.pdf

What are the risks and health
effects of using cannabis?

Research shows that cannabis can help relieve
pain, nausea and muscle spasms, anxiety,
depression, fatigue and insomnia. It can also
promote weight gain and appetite. These
effects make cannabis useful for treating
many different health conditions and related
symptoms.

While some people find the effects of cannabis
to be beneficial for their health and well-being,
not everyone has pleasant experiences with
cannabis. Some people get moody or down.
High doses of THC can cause panic attacks
and temporary psychosis, including paranoia
and hallucinations, in some people. Anxious
reactions occur most often in new users, or after
eating cannabis.

Cannabis can alleviate anxiety and depression,
but it also can make them worse. Some
people with schizophrenia may find relief in
using cannabis, but others may find cannabis
increases their symptoms. Cannabis may also
prompt an early onset of schizophrenia in those
who are vulnerable to the disorder because of a
personal or family history with the condition.
Cannabis is associated with temporary shortterm
memory loss. It is also associated with the
regeneration of brain cells after a brain injury or
stroke and as the brain ages.

For a period of time after using cannabis, users
may experience some physical and cognitive
deficits. These reactions occur most often with
high dosages and in new or occasional users.

[droidamus2]

117. Gee ya think

Let's see you inject THC directly into the blood stream and you get weird reaction who woulda thunk. I think anybody that has smoked pot for awhile has had the paranoid reaction which I am sure psychiatrists would say indicates 'psychotic' effects. Of course the paranoia last all of a few minutes and runs to things like 'no you go into the 7/11 and get the munchies and beer. If I go in everybody in there will know I'm stoned'. Also, yes smoking pot does seem to have a temporary effect on short ter.. what was I typing about? oh yeah it has an effect on short term memory. Are these effects really 'psycho' or 'psychotic' or are these scientists taking a list of effects indicating 'pyschosis' and trying to make pots effect match them because that's what they want to find?

[mdmc]

136. the "acute psychotic reaction" in well individuals is a proven fact

pot will make the user laugh at something that they normally wouldn't find to funny. It is a psycho-active drug. It has a psychotic effect. It does not increase a persons chance of developing schizophrenia or schizo-effective disorder.

Basically the study that you cited proved that 22 college students were able to get high on injectable THC. The "transient acute psychotic reaction" is another term for being stoned to the gills.

[droidamus2]

170. So basically we are saying the same thing

Being high is a psycho-active response and therefore the effects are similar too, mimic or are low grade versions of what a psychotic person goes through. The difference would be that for people who do not have a genetic tendency toward psychiatric problems to begin with these effects are transient.

[green917]

149. There are some serious questions raised by this study

The research team from the Institute of Psychiatry at King's College, London, injected the active ingredient of cannabis, THC, into 22 healthy university students and staff

I've never known any user of cannabis to inject it. I would be very interested to know the answers to the following questions before I lend any credence to this "scientific" study:

1. Why was the THC injected into the research subjects when injection is NOT a widely used (once again, I've never heard of such a thing) delivery method for the drug?

2. In what concentration was THC injected into these students and faculty members?

3. What was the rate of individuals taking part in this study with a history of mental illness in themselves or their families?

4. Was there a control group and, if so, what were the parameters of this group and how was the control administered?

IMHO (I am not a doctor nor do I play one on tv), this is reefer madness all over again. PM Harper has never made any bones about his disdain for the various and sundry decriminalization laws in Canada and drugs in general. I believe that an anti-drug stance was a crucial part of his campaign platform. I know many many people who habitually ingest cannabis and exactly none of them has ever had a psychotic episode. I think this whole thing is a load of horse hockey!

[bitchkitty]

251. Not quite.

It's real, published research on the effects of ONE active ingredient of cannabis, THC.

I'm on medical marijuana and have been for years. I know a ton of people who use marijuana, and not one of them has ever extracted THC from marijuana and injected it.

Flawed? Yes, I would say so.

[Seldona]

92. Are you being obtuse?

Do you think that government funded science isn't subject to politics? Seriously?

What about stem-cell research? Evolution? A large segment of society considers science the enemy!

[time_has_come]

93. Not at all. This is published research by scientists. That was the question raised...

and addressed:

The research team from the Institute of Psychiatry at King's College, London, injected the active ingredient of cannabis, THC, into 22 healthy university students and staff, observed their behaviour, and asked them to take tests and answer questionnaires.

Their report, published in the Psychological Medicine journal, said: 'The findings confirm that THC can induce a transient, acute psychotic reaction in psychiatrically well individuals.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1202583/How-just-joint-wreck-mental-health.html#ixzz0OfOKyLQl

The poster I was responding to was questioning if there was any real science in the article.

Say what you will, but it is real, published, scientific research.

If politicians like it, or not, that doesn't diminish it.

[Flaneur]

103. Uh, I don't think this is the research mentioned in the article.

That was from UBC Victoria. This is from King's College in London. And I would be much more comfortable seeing the actual research than reading about it in the rabidly anti-cannabis tabloid the Daily Mail.

Oh my God! I just looked at your link. Typical Daily Mail scare bullshit: "How Just One Joint Can Wreck Your Mental Health!"

The article mentioned that the in the experiment researchers INJECTED subjects with THC. Really? How much THC? More than what one would ingest in a normal smoking session? Who knows? You and I certainly don't.

You have to be very careful with the way even the responsible press--not to mention the Daily Mail--handles scientific research findings.

[time_has_come]

121. Right you are, good eye. Nevertheless, the original artical mentions research

which shows a link, and results of the research showing a 7-fold increase in occurance.

[Zhade]

331. NO IT FUCKING DOES NOT. STOP MISCHARACTERIZING THE RESEARCH!

It suggests a CORRELATION. IT DOES NOT PROVE A LINK.

[time_has_come]

349. I said it "shows a link". You prefer "suggests a correlation", ok.

Nothing is ever proven in science anyway.

And you don't have to yell.

[droidamus2]

171. One thing missing

At least in this article there is not mention of peer review of the results. That is part of the scientific method as well. Peer review at least in part helps to weed out biased or badly designed and performed research or poor interpretations of results.

[winyanstaz]

311. In the last 40 years...I have seen tons of negative reports by "Scientists"

about how terrible pot is. Just like you are now seeing tons of reports by "Scientists" of how the ice caps are almost gone...never mind all that new ice growing there or that this year we have had record cold spots.........sheesh.
Scientists are good and some are bad and some will report anything that helps their bottom line. Like this guy...of course he will get a lot of great publicity for this as well as his clinic will be the one parents take the kids too...after all..its easier to blame pot than accept responsiblilty.

[Kevin_X2]

372. BY A SCIENTIST?!?! IT MUST BE TRUE! scientists would never lie to me....

grow up.

[Kevin_X2]

390. Not necessarily. If a scientist cant take a shit, based on the sample 100% of scientists cant shit

you just trust white coats too much. Not everybody is your friend and ally, fighting for the greater good of you... the all-important individual.

Get real buddy

[droidamus2]

113. Consider

Not that I have any proof of this one way or the other but consider the influence on a 'scientist' as to who is giving them the money. Was this scientist asked to study the 'bad' effects of marijuana or just the effects of marijuana in general good or bad. If the scientist knows that those paying for the research have an anti-drug bias and he wants to keep making his living doing this kind of research is he more likely to interpret and report the results in a negative light? I don't know anything about this particular scientist and he may be totally on the up and up but I think it is fair to say that some so called scientists opinions can be bought.

[time_has_come]

258. It doesn't say that the completed research was funded by government,. And in any case...

...a research scientist studying the relationship of pot smoking to psychotic episodes/onset of schizophrenia would probably not risk his career and credibility by fudging any part of a study or allowing bias to enter, knowing that peers will be examining it.

The same attack is made against scientists findings on global warming, and it's a slippery slope to step on.

[droidamus2]

289. Maybe..

Maybe it is just the cynic in me but I think there are people in pretty much any profession even the sciences that can be bought. If they are that unethical they can probably make a pretty good living using their credentials to back up lay peoples arguments. Not saying this study is an example, but people have pointed out the apparently the current administration in Canada is doing the anti-drug thing and may have influenced the direction of this study. Also, scientific findings are sometimes not that cut and dried. By that I mean two different scientists can look at the same results and logically explain to you and their peers why they come up with two different interpretations of what they mean. In the end that's what leads to more studies.

[stuball111]

33. Bingo...!

If you read between the lines enough, something comes out. And the SSC seems to be a private groups, maybe even lobbyists for....something... maybe the synthetic fibre industry like Dupont? All I know, is that the people that experience symptoms of mental illness probably had them before they toked up. And Harper is an Idiot.

[Le Taz Hot]

361. As usual when investigating anything of this sort,

follow da money. No agenda here. No sirree. :eyes:

[unpossibles]

8. coincidentally around 80% of youths have probably tried using cannabis

causation and correlation are not the same.

[crim son]

9. Why is this being dismissed out of hand?

Obviously some studies are crap; what is the argument which persuades every respondent so far to call bullshit? I don't know a thing about this subject.

[NYC_SKP]

12. Drug induced paranoia?

:hide:

[LanternWaste]

18. Sacred Cows, I would guess...

"Why is this being dismissed out of hand?"

One of contemporary pop culture's most Sacred Cows are being slow-roasted over hickory coals, I would guess.

[theHandpuppet]

96. That's my guess as well

I'm not on any side but I'm certainly open to listening to discussions of this issue from many viewpoints, even from contradictory studies.

[Zhade]

332. Or because, you know, this story is bullshit. Correlation is not causation.

NT!

[LanternWaste]

369. I imagine many people believe they are aware of what I know...

I imagine many people believe they are aware of what I know or don't know...

[Zhade]

401. Any rational human being should understand that basic fact. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

NT!

[LanternWaste]

422. I never claim nor pretend to be clever

I never claim nor pretend to be clever.

My only claim is that sacred cows are never more sacred (or satisfying, depending on which end) than when on the end of fork.

[elocs]

25. Because this is DU and if any study, poll doesn't agree with commonly held beliefs,

then it is crap. It makes the belief system much easier to grasp.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

30. I can't speak for others

For myself, it's due to the way Harper has addressed his own version of "The Republican War on Drugs" in his government.

Also, there's the fact that money in Canada which used to go to studies which linked schizophrenia to an increase in self-medication via substances such as THC and nicotine, now go to fund research which appears be geared toward furthering his political career.


Study: Schizophrenia and Self-Medication
By Heather Cox
March 20, 2006

Researchers at the University of Montreal in Canada conducted a meta-analysis of current research to test the schiophrenia self-medication hypothesis - the idea that there are high rates substance abuse among those with schizophrenia because drugs such as marijuana, nicotine, etc. are a way to relieve symptoms of the disorder. Their findings are published in April’s Psychological Medecine.

They used search engines to mathematically analyze data from 11 studies that assessed negative symptoms in patients with schizophrenia and substance abuse disorders, using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms (SANS), and found a moderate effect. Those with substance abuse disoders had fewer negative symptoms compared to those who were abstinent. These results suggest that either substance abuse relieves the negative symptoms of schizophrenia or that the patients with fewer negative symptoms would be more prone to substance use disorders.
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2006/03/20/study-schizophrenia-and-self-medication/


Perhaps I've grown too jaded, but perhaps I'm just be seeing through the smoke screen of emotional manipulation?

[defendandprotect]

123. Interesting . . . well, past history shows reliance on "reefer madness" . . .

and also unless someone is growing their own stuff, it would be easy to contaminate

marijuana with stuff that is harmful and I wouldn't put it past those who want to

keep control of drugs with doing that.

Meanwhile, I think we've also seen the drugs of many celebrities contaminated to create

these drug deaths -- another aid to creating myths about drugs connecting them to death.

[rfranklin]

90. Because avid pot smokers are like gun nuts...

they do not allow any criticism of their infatuation.

[Webster Green]

231. Oh bullshit!

If the teens drank milk, why not blame the milk for the disorder. The study is obviously flawed, just as your dumb-ass comment is. :rofl:

[onehandle]

257. +1 nt

[devilgrrl]

374. -1 nt

nt

[Kevin_X2]

376. When the critic is a private study tested in more then a day with un-biased samples, methods

and results, ill accept it. Here, the same people telling me not to smoke because it "funds terrorism" and "causes cancer, psychosis, lower spirm count(acutally substantially higher), impairs motor skills, makes you gay, can by synthasized into crack and nuclear devices" are the ones warning me against it. Just like vitamine b12, an essential nutrient to protect against REAL problems, is being banned in the states.

If you put so much faith in your government that you take everything they say at face value, i feel sorry for you. They may be on top, but they do NOT work for your best interest. Hemp could save the world if it wasn't outlawed as "marajuana", something which it is not.

Twisted faith will kill you.

[mdmc]

140. I know a great deal about this subject

I think people here at DU are defensive about pot. They are defensive about using "science" to defame pot. All the studies that show pot "causes" schizophrenia could just as easily shown that alcohol causes schizophrenia.

What these "studies" do is ask schizophrenics "Did you use pot?" Most have. Therefore the "study" shows a (in this case) 7 fold increase in schizophrenics due to pot use.

I think people are so defensive about this because in America this same study has been done over and over. The fact that pot does not cause schizophrenia or schizo-effective disorder has been proven consistently, but it is often buried in the study.

There is only one proven cause of schizophrenia and schizo-effective disorder - that one cause is heredity.
There is also no cure, just tools to manage the illness. For the record pot is not one of those tools. Pot is very dangerous because it increases (as opposed to decreasing) the symptoms of the illness.

[noiretextatique]

399. thanks for a very sensible post

my nephew is schizophrenic and has been for ten years. like most schizophrenics, he was diagnosed as a teenager. i am sure he has smoked pot, and i am certain it is not good for him. he didn't "get it" from smoking pot...he would have gotten anyway because of his dad's family history of the disease.

[redqueen]

423. It's very sad to me that this is not glaringly obvious already.

It's sad that anyone needs to ask about the reason for the reaction.

*sigh*

[TwilightZone]

154. Because anecdotal evidence trumps scientific research.

Secondly, denial is a strong motivator.

Lastly, strongly held personal beliefs are difficult to influence.

[devilgrrl]

375. Personal beliefs like all pot smokers are losers....

:popcorn:

[mdmc]

162. schizophrenia has one proven cause - heredity

if you are not born with the illness, you will not develop the illness - ever.

Smoking pot triggers the onset of the illness in those with the hereditary predisposition. This is a fact.

So DU'ers don't like politics using science for politics. And DU'ers like pot and defend it.

:)

[droidamus2]

175. Not always valid

The rejection of studies that show negative effects of using pot may not always be warranted but those of us that have been around pot for many years know that our government has been notorious for spread bogus studies and disinformation (see Reefer Madness) in supporting their 'war on drugs'. It just causes us to be jaundiced we see these kind of reports.

[stray cat]

206. Notice - no one has posted any evidence to the contrary - but they do have opinions!

at least the equal to the most ignorant posters on any web site including free republic

[devilgrrl]

377. Evidence: People who use pot are losers who haven't done a decent thing for humanity. Kill them all!

Do it now.

[NoSheep]

268. I would say the reason is we live in such a dysfunctional society, some who

chose to smoke pot and do fine with it, would rather the pot boogie man just go away. Because so few people who smoke have any problem at all. Unlike folks who drink and smoke cigarettes and do any number of things that cause problems...that are perfectly legal and socially sanctioned. I'm trying to answer this as honestly as I can...I'm going to refer you to something else I posted..I have to check the post number...Here-265. I'm serious. And then there is the other nagging thing that pot tends to make people see through the bullshit and if we all got high....we'd stop being sheep. I'd bet my life on it. And most people who smoke know that.

I had to stop a long time ago. it made me too smart. I couldn't live in the world. Maybe people who start out with a certain predisposition do okay with it. It opened my eyes along with other substances and then, out of choice, I put it down. it isn't addictive so it wasn't even an issue. I still drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes though. ever see The Matrix? I'm the asshole that chooses the steak dinner over living in the real world. It's just easier that way. Alcohol and cigarettes are the steak dinner. We aren't all the same though and I think people who smoke it should be left alone. There are MANY MANY more ills in our society that are much worse and no one is saying a fucking word about all that....it's the status quo. Dig?

[ProudDad]

You just answered your own question.

"I don't know a thing about this subject."

As someone who has spent years working in the Recovery Community, I DO know something about this subject...

(I don't use ANYTHING, haven't for a long time...so I don't have a dog in this hunt)

In this case I followed the money and call bullshit.

Some stuff just doesn't pass the smell test...

I've also listened to the stories of hundreds of marijuana users who've been in meetings I've led...

This is just more of the phony drug war bullshit (think Reefer Madness) that gets politicians like Harper cheap votes, fills the jails and prisons and the pockets of the prison-industrial complex, and corrodes our society with lies and unfounded fear.

That same phony drug war that makes it VERY hard for those of us who work in recovery to help those few who actually need help with substance addiction...

[Le Taz Hot]

363. It's being dismissed

because if someone is going to throw out an incendiary device (pot CAUSES schizophrenia???)you BETTER be able to back it up with science. The OP nor subsequent posters have not provided that science. (Hint: Because it doesn't exist.)

And just for the record, I know LOTS about this subject as I've been a heavy pot smoker since 1968. I managed to earn 2 college degrees (Dean's list EVERY semester) and hold down "respectable" jobs for the last 35 years. Additionally, I've known LOTS and LOTS of pot smokers. In all that time, I've only known 2 people that had an adverse reaction. The first got violent after smoking (most people have the opposite reaction). The second is my husband who has A.D.D. It seems that he gets incredibly paranoid after smoking it so obviously, he doesn't smoke.

[devilgrrl]

373. Perhaps people are dismissing because they've heard it over and over and over.

How many pot smokers do you know that are mentally disabled as a result of using it?

:popcorn:

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. They were also drinking as well

I know for a fact that 100% of the people in the study also drank water right before their first psychotic episode.

[TexasProgresive]

11. perhaps, pre-psychotics may be self-medicating

and it is not the pot that is the cause but an attempt to alleviate symptoms.

[EFerrari]

14. My ex did. And when he was smoking, his symptoms got worse.

But, they probably would have gotten worse on any similar substance.

[Javaman]

13. But theconversations with themselves are like real mellow.

Me: so like, what are you doing here?

other Me: ah, what?

Me: Did you just say something?

other Me: who?

Me: that is so fucking funny. LOLOLOLOLOL

other Me: Oh I get it. LOLOLOLOL

[Mythsaje]

35. That's not schizophrenia... That's Multiple Personality Disorder

which is actually as much myth as fact in many minds...

Schizophrenia is delusional--seeing things, hearing voices. When mixed with paranoia it becomes a deal of "my neighbor's an alien and I have to kill him before he sucks my brain out through my nose."

[time_has_come]

43. They do often talk to themselves when having delusional thoughts. n/t

[Mythsaje]

50. Yes... what's your point? n/t

[time_has_come]

65. Perhaps it's that "conversing with yourself" and "talking with yourself" is pretty much the same....

...the poster you tried to correct never said the person was holding multiple conversations with alternate personalities.

They were joking anyway, which maybe you should have picked up on.

[man4allcats]

51. Me: Knock, knock.

Other me: Who's there?

Me: It's me man - Dave. Open the door.

Other me: Dave's not here man.

Me: Open the door you idiot! We're both Dave.

Other me: I'm Dave? No way man. Dave's not here.

[Mythsaje]

15. Interesting that I've never met a schizophrenic...

Given my upbringing and personal experiences.

[time_has_come]

20. How can you know that? nt

[Mythsaje]

26. Okay, fine...

I have never seen any evidence of schizophrenic behavior in anyone I have known.

Like that better?

[kestrel91316]

16. My mom is schizophrenic and, born in 1935, never touched the stuff. I, OTOH,

had an inherent 12% risk of schizophrenia as her offspring, smoked pot liberally in college, and my only problem is a pissy attitude on occasion.

Pot use does not cause schizophrenia. Perhaps people with schizophrenic tendencies are drawn to pot use for some reason.......

[PassingFair]

101. I knew people that became "paranoid" when they smoked pot.

But these people seemed on the edge to begin with.

I think some people should steer clear of pot,
just as some people should steer clear of alcohol.

[winyanstaz]

308. maybe they were "paranoid" because they were afraid of going to jail.....

you think?

[time_has_come]

21. LOL - Google Ad: saynotopot.com

too funny.

[Zorra]

22. If they knew how to spell "Cannabis", I'd be more inclined to give credence

to the article.

So I'm just going to keep doing what my rice krispies tell me to do.

[time_has_come]

28. Good eye. That's the headline written by the Toronto Star though, not the person who wrote the

article, where it is spelled correctly.

[aquart]

23. "Suggested"? Suggestions are not science.

[time_has_come]

31. Uh...that's a politician talking. The article does cite that a scientific study was performed. n/t

[mdmc]

27. effect, not the cause

pot may trigger schizophrenia, but it does not cause it. Currently the only known cause of schizophrenia is heredity.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our third quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[Ichingcarpenter]

34. More for the seven of us to smoke.......including Sibel

Nonsense................I want to see seven independent studies

[northernlights]

67. you're confusing multiple personality disorder

with schizophrenia. Two totally different mental illnesses.

Think John Nash...or Russell Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind."



"How could you, a mathematician, believe that estraterrestrials were sending you messages?"

"Because the ideas I had about supernatural beings came to me the same way my mathematical ideas did. So I took them seriously."

[woo me with science]

316. Yep. Schizophrenia is real. nt

[Oregone]

37. People with psychosis predisposition are 7 times more likely to smoke Cannibis

Fair now?

Correlation does not imply causation

[time_has_come]

42. You tell 'em! You tell those dumb scientists!

lol

[Oregone]

52. Its more of the medias take

Scientists know that correlation does not mean causation. Its a basic principle

[Mythsaje]

44. Alternate headline: Pot makes some people more delusional...

...but nowhere near as delusional as a rule as Right Wing Republicanism.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Perhaps schizophrenics are just more likely to smoke cannabis and

use other drugs.

[eShirl]

46. a spark increases the chance spilled gasoline will combust.

[kenfrequed]

48. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

I think another reading would be that schizophrenic often choose to engage in substance abuse. People with this sort of mental health issue might end up being socially marginalized or exhibit behavoir that is already anti social.

The drug use would not then be an attempt at 'self medication' but would rather be a symptom of the illness itself.

[baldguy]

55. REEFER MADNESS!!!

[Dramarama]

56. By young, what specific age do they mean

[elocs]

57. I know it goes against the belief system here, but in my experience this is true.

My 17 year old daughter has been hospitalized 8 times so far this year, diagnosed with schizophrenia and her psychotic breakdown was brought on by marijuana use. After her initial hospitalization she was placed on medication and was released because she was stable. She was placed in a therapeutic school which in her second week there they simply allowed her to leave the school with 2 other kids and they went out and smoked some pot. This precipitated another psychotic break and she wound right back in the hospital again. She knows now that for her to smoke pot is an absolute disaster for her life.

I realize this is anecdotal evidence and I am very sorry this doesn't fit into the pat belief here at DU that anything negative about marijuana is bullshit, but this has been my experience and it has been heartbreaking and tragic. For anybody who is in anyway predisposed to schizophrenia, marijuana use is a short cut to big time trouble and that holds true for any recreational drug use by those who have schizophrenia which is about 1% of the population. So before anyone is instantly dismissive of anything that does not fit into their belief system about marijuana, realize that although many can use it with impunity there are many for whom marijuana use will seriously mess up their lives, and that is not bullshit for those of us who have had to live and deal with the consequences.

[jobycom]

68. Oh it's true, it's just not what people want to hear.

When Freepers reject clear scientific proof to support their dumb ideas we all laugh at them, but it's done here by some, too.

[elocs]

71. It's routinely done here. Sad really. n/t

[Gman2]

73. It is most certainly NOT true. It is an interesting finding at this point.

Period. More studies are needed. Those factors may be able to be isolated.

[tabasco]

365. LOL!

Point out the "clear scientific proof."

You embrace unsupported claims while screeching about science.

Idiotic.

[jobycom]

391. Thus proving my point...

[fascisthunter]

79. the schizophrenia was already there to begin with

any drug can trigger a negative response for those who have conditions as your daughter does. Marijuana cannot cause schizophrenia, it can exacerbate the condition...

by the way, I'm sorry for you and your daughter's situation. My aunt was diagnosed with schizophrenia only years after being misdiagnosed with manic depression. It's not something I take lightly.

[elocs]

102. Never said it caused it, but marijuana use clearly triggered it.

Too many here want to deny there is any downside to marijuana use and that it is all sweetness and light. The point is that when the subject is marijuana, too many here instantly dismiss any study or finding about it because it doesn't fit into their belief system. There is a percentage of our population for whom smoking pot is an absolute disaster for their lives and it is not all sweetness and light.

[winyanstaz]

309. well then they shouldnt smoke.

I would like to see some proof that it was marijuana that triggered it...and not some crap going on in their lives.

[ProudDad]

334. No, we suggest

that an astroturf organization that receives a half million dollars to push Mr. Harper's drug war bullshit...

is not a reliable source when they are saying that marijuana CAUSES Schizophrenia.

In over a thousand Recovery meetings I've led, I've seen many folks who abused pot, just as I've seen many who abused Meth, Cocaine, Oxycontin and other prescription drugs and tobacco. I'm not one to say all drug use is sweetness and light.

I do cry bullshit on this particular organization and this particular theory they're pushing...

Also, it's the PHONY DRUG that makes it harder to isolate real cause and effect of negative and positive results of recreational drug use since research is made almost impossible...

[Zhade]

408. No, you ASSUME it triggered it. But you have no evidence of that.

NT!

[noiretextatique]

398. marijuana did not "cause" her schizophrenia

as you admit. sorry about your daughter. i've been done that road with my newphew...it's been ten years now since his diagnosis. he's back in jail after doing well for three years...even completed his AA degree. he stopped taking his drugs, and started having his "gangster" delusions again and ended up in jail. there is no place for him. hopefully we can get some meaningful reform that will help him and your daughter.

[Odin2005]

61. More like people at risk for psychiatric conditions should not use mind-altering drugs.

[rd_kent]

62. Lies. All lies.

[Butch350]

69. It's amazing that...

there's been a rash of mary jane reports since the cry for legalization!?.

[Gman2]

70. 2.2 mill sufferers in USA,us pop, 307,218,361

Noway no how. That is one in every 139 persons. Those with perception disorders self medicate. Pot acts as Xanax in a sense, so it is understandable that they would use it. This is bogus. And skewed.

[Zynx]

138. That's not the assertion of the study. The assertion is that it harms otherwise well individuals.

[fascisthunter]

74. lol

this is the third consecutive post I felt the need to respond with "lol".

Anyone with a precondition of mental illness will react negatively to psychoactive drugs. Marijuana in of itself cannot cause schizophrenia but it can either excerbate the condition or trigger that condition.

[sofa king]

78. That's pretty interesting.

Studies are increasingly showing that schizophrenia is like a lock with multiple tumblers in it, all of which have to be teased open to bring on the disease. There has to be a genetic component, but twin studies show that's only half of the story. The other factors have to be environmental.

Schizophrenics have one of the highest substance abuse rates out there, which may lend credence to the theory that many drug abusers may be actually searching for a form of self-medication for undiagnosed disorders. If they're settling on reefer more than anything else, that might further suggest that schizophrenia is somehow related to the cannabinoid subsystem of the brain.

But what it does not suggest to me is that dope causes schizophrenia. But if it did, or if one could make even a fallacious case that it did, the solution would be to legalize the substance in order to better control its distribution to those prone to activating the disease. If the preferred way to acquire marijuana is through a pharmacist or from a "club" like in California, a note on one's health care card might be enough to prevent people at risk from acquiring it. As it is, one need only know a high school student.

[caseymoz]

87. I agree with your last paragraph.

But I think the evidence that it causes psychosis in some cases is strong and getting stronger by the year.

[tazkcmo]

89. What's a health care card? n/t

[Gman2]

139. Also, like in pain supression, you slow the sensations.

So, one of the components of Cannabis, makes the sensations slow down. As the cues and stimulations of Pchyzophrenics must be overbearing, it is NO surprise, especially, in the beginning, when errant stimuli scare and confuse you, you might self medicate with something that slows the flow.

[Doctor_J]

80. That's not what the voices tell me

:shrug:

[time_has_come]

83. This is REAL research. Scientific and published. If you doubt, see here.....

The research team from the Institute of Psychiatry at King's College, London, injected the active ingredient of cannabis, THC, into 22 healthy university students and staff, observed their behaviour, and asked them to take tests and answer questionnaires.

Their report, published in the Psychological Medicine journal, said: 'The findings confirm that THC can induce a transient, acute psychotic reaction in psychiatrically well individuals.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1202583/How-just-joint-wreck-mental-health.html#ixzz0OfOKyLQl

Say what you will, but it is real, published, scientific research.

[caseymoz]

86. It's also confirmed here, along with other studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325132328.htm

It isn't a harmless drug.

[Flaneur]

108. I wouldn't argue that marijuana is a harmless drug.

Any psychoactive substance can be harmful, as can any number of other activities.

It is indeed possible that smoking pot can set up temporary psychotic states, especially in people who are predisposed to mental illness, but perhaps even in otherwise healthy people.

The question then becomes: So what? Is that a basis for criminalizing it? Or is it a basis for warning potential users?

What about alcohol and mental illness?

What about cigarette smoking and mental illness?

What about high fructose corn syrup and mental illness?

What about video gaming and mental illness?

I am suggesting that much of this research around links between marijuana and mental illness is driven by political agendas aimed at maintaining marijuana prohibition. I also suggest that the research findings are commonly much less robust than reported in the mass media.

[caseymoz]

158. No, I firmly believe it shouldn't stay criminalized, no way.

I just don't think anything good can come from blanket denials of studies, especially ones in countries that are outside the political divisions in the US.

[debbierlus]

144. They INJECTED the people with it, inject people with MANY substances that wouldn't normally cause

a reaction -

You will GET one.

Sheesh.

[jotsy]

210. Just because scientists signed off on it, doesn't mean it's scientific or REAL.

Did a news feature about legalization in the early 90's and had a lawyer in the DA's office let me quote him as saying "the anti marijuana movement was founded and perpetuated on a sham." Corporations needed it removed from the market as a textile. Prior attempts to demonize this drug before using questionable research conditions make any argument now suspect.

A couple of other notable questions for me are:

If pure THC has been injected into people to prove the theories set forth, the setting has no basis in reality to begin with. That's not how anybody I know gets high.

What steps were taken to rule out other possibilities? Were there any other common factors taken note of? Like the difference in air quality from rural to urban settings, Drinking from plastic bottles, Any history of Ritalin use? My point is there could be a lot of explanations and jumping to this conclusion based on the referenced article speaks to having an agenda, like it or not.

I used to know someone who said, "God made marijuana, man made alcohol, I know who I trust."

[caseymoz]

84. The total close-mindedness pot smokers are showing here is stunning.

Evidence indicating a connection between pot and some cases of psychosis are strong and getting stronger.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090325132328.htm

Yes, ironically, "Reefer Madness" beneath all its stupidity, might have been based on something factual somewhere.

Why would anybody presume that the drug is completely beneficial and without serious side-effects? If so, its the only intoxicating drug in history that would be.

Boy, I know I'm going to become popular in this thread.

[Robb]

125. Your response is reasoned. However

...it is not my favorite, because Auggie's is damn funny. :D

"Why would anybody presume that the drug is completely beneficial and without serious side-effects? If so, its the only intoxicating drug in history that would be."

Sensible question. Unaddressed, I should add.

[Auggie]

85. Obviously, more research is called for. Volunteers, anyone?

[LynneSin]

88. How much pot does one have to smoke to reach that level?

I'm sure anything done in excess will cause issues but I'm suspecting you'd have to be constantly smoking pot for the last couple of decades for something like this to kick-in.

[byronius]

91. We think this is causally questionable.

[hayu_lol]

100. I wonder if 2nd hand pot smoke ...

would be sufficient to affect those with the problem?

Small gatherings in a small confined space.

[SemperEadem]

97. I don't believe it. Scare tactics being used

besides, no one in their right mind advocates "youth" having access to it and using it, just like no one advocates "youth" having access to and using alcohol.

[droidamus2]

180. Oh you noticed

That is one of the drug warriors favorite tactics. You try to discuss legalizing pot for adult use and they start talking about 'the children' because it causes a much more emotional reaction than trying to convince people that adults shouldn't have a right to make their own decisions about what they consume.

[Fire1]

99. That is such shit!! Absolute shit!!

What pharmaceutical company or product has this guy invested in???

[Sgent]

104. Correlation is not equal to causation

nm...

[murdoch]

118. Absolutely, cigarette smoking...

...can be linked to this sort of thing as well.

[Zynx]

135. That may be well worth looking into considering that cigarette smoking destroys one's health

in almost every other way possible.

[edc]

105. Reefer Madness

all over again.

[NNadir]

106. Um, what would the Schizophrenia Society know about schizophrenia? It is far better to ask stoned

people to adjudge science, since because they are stoned they know everything.

In general I oppose drug laws, but that is not the same as the requirement often stated by people who express a general hatred of science that we say "drugs are good for you."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with not using drugs and not approving of their use.

[zonkers]

107. This explains so much. Thank you.

[Puzzler]

110. Not to boast... but the pot up here is very very strong.

I'm live in Victoria. Much of the world's strongest pot is grown on Vancouver Island. Some of the strongest stuff can, as we say, "wheelchair you". Meaning that a couple of tokes for the moderate to light smoker can render you incapacitated to 20 minutes or so.

I should point out that there not much need to "lace" pot up here. The THC content is high enough anyway.

My point being that the pot the researchers used may not be that representative of "normal strength" pot.

(For the record, I'm pro pot legalization)

[BobTheSubgenius]

219. Heh. I live over near Swan Lake.

Greetings. :D

[Puzzler]

226. Yeah... greetings!

I live downtown. I get out to the Swan Lake area quite a lot as I'm a cab driver (amongst other things).

[walldude]

111. If this were true 1/3 of the people in the world would be schizophrenic

gimme a fucking break. Oh and where is this study he talks about? Can anyone find it? I couldn't.

[Zynx]

134. That's like saying because 25% of people smoke, 25% should get lung cancer.

It is about an increased risk. The percentage of schizophrenics is very low. This is about increasing one's odds of becoming a schizophrenic.

[walldude]

195. If my logic is wrong then the study is meaningless.

It's nothing but a fear tactic. Shouldn't even be in a place that purports to seek the truth.

[time_has_come]

350. Your interpretation of the findings listed in the article is wrong.

Saying there's a 7-fold increase in occurance does not translate into a percentage.

[Riverman]

114. Non-Cannabis users have a 20-fold risk of developing Schizophrenia!

No science, just my own personal life-long survey results! Lol!

[Haole Girl]

115. This is strange

I'd like to see more studies done, using money from a different source than an "anti-drug" campaign.

[debbierlus]

145. I can't even find the damn study they use as their evidence!

When you google it, all you get is articles with the quote from the above story, no links to the actual research itself (which this article omits).

Who the hell put this on the top of DU?

[4dsc]

116. Help, the paraniods are after me...

Great line from MAD magazine.

[deathrind]

120. I am pretty sure...

that people who drink and drive have an increased risk of straight up death so the point here is what??

[Forkboy]

122. Funny, we counted more than seven.

[guitar man]

124. schizophrenia my ass

my ass too

yeah, me too :D

seriously, I think some people would say almost anything to forward their agendas :eyes:

[blitzburgh55]

126. Pot cured my schizophrenia

:)

[Rob Gregory Browne]

127. This has been refuted time and time again. Old news. nt

[rockedthevoteinMA]

128. Who wrote this? Why do I think the US Anti Drug Task Force

had something to do with it?

Check out http://rxmarijuana.com/index2.htm

[time_has_come]

191. Maybe because your paranoid?

:crazy:

[debunkthelies]

130. Does that mean Jesus was schizophrenic?

:crazy: :freak:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

132. A bipolar friend of mine frequently self-medicated with pot when he was manic

and cocaine when he was depressed. The lithium that was prescribed for him aggravated his ulcer.

One day he decided to put an end to the cycle, and went overboard on the cocaine.

Very sad.

Anyway, I'm thinking that's what caused this "study" to end up with its cannabis-damning result. Just one more shoddily-drawn conclusion.

[jmowreader]

133. Very strange study, to say the least

And kind of inapplicable to actual pot smokers. They injected THC into people and some of them went from having the trait for schizophrenia to having schizophrenia.

There are two big problems with this study:

1) real marijuana, as opposed to laboratory preparations, isn't injectable. Could the method of administration affect the schizophrenia-inducing properties of pot?

2) THC isn't the only cannabinoid out there. It's the most important one, true, but there are many of them in any marijuana, and there are different proportions of them in every strain...which is how pot from British Columbia can give a different kind of high than pot from Mexico or Colombia. Does the fact there were no modulating cannabinoids affect the schizophrenia-inducing properties of pot?

However, people in the field who SMOKE marijuana have long known schizophrenic people shouldn't smoke weed.

[Tiggeroshii]

137. I've freaked out after smoking pot before....

So I just decided it probably wasn't the right thing for me. I have lots of friends who enjoy pot frequently, and they seem to be just fine. I'm sure that a major component of the discovered results is people with mental illness medicating themselves with marijuana, I just doubt a seven-fold increase in schizophrenia is caused completely by marijuana.

[Hekate]

141. Very skeptical here. I'm more inclined to believe they are self-medicating with pot.

Good lord.

Hekate

[and-justice-for-all]

142. Statisticly, there will be apercentage of people who have some...

adverse affect to it.

It is the same for prescription drugs and over the counter drugs too.

[debbierlus]

143. There is no link to the data in the article. This article points to a study but no details

And, when I googled the study, I could not find the actual study they were talking about -

This does NOT deserve top of the front page.

I hold the article as completely suspect and requiring further research. And, given I could not find the study on the internet, I am even more skeptical.

[kpominville]

146. Sounds more like the "Harper government" is fishing ...

...for excuses to continue the war on drugs in Canada.

[snort]

148. Ummmm Hmmmmm

DOGSHIT!

[pattmarty]

150. Bullshit!!!!! I read the article and it uses terms like suggested.

AND, it is GOING TO STUDY, not a study already done. This is the first MOST of us here have heard about this. AND, another thing, the study is being commissioned by Harper the conservative prime minister as a drug prevention tool. So, take all that with a grain of salt or better yet a fucking big smelly turd.

[drmeow]

152. Typical bad science reporting

with a propagandist twist. Actually, its not even science reporting. Its economic reporting.

Show me a prospective study of youth starting from birth through age 25 - a randomly selected representative sample with assessments that include family history, regular psychological evaluations, annual life histories and I predict that what you will find is in people with a family history of psychosis and after controlling for a multitude of other variables that in youth who are at risk for Schizophrenia, cannabis is one of the triggers that brings on a psychotic episode. However, it will not be the only trigger. Also - I predict that you will find an early onset of substance use in general in youth with a family history especially if they exhibit early warning signs. What you will not find is that cannabis causes Schizoprenia.

As a scientist who used to study chemical dependency, simplistic and deceptive articles like this really f**king annoy me.

[varelse]

168. The design of this study is questionable

"As part of the society's research, some 30 youths who have experienced psychosis will be trained to gather information about the reasons their peers use cannabis"

Isn't information-gathering best handled by "impartial observers"?

[drmeow]

172. Not necessarily

It depends on their training and the design of the study. More critical is whether the youth know the hypothesis or not. If they are blind to the hypothesis, they follow a standard research protocol, and standardized questions, I don't see a problem. Using youth who've had the same experience potentially gives the research team greater access and the youth may get more honest answers than outsiders and/or adults.

[Piewhacket]

157. CROCK O CRAP. propaganda "science" supporting a POV.

Just look at the claims. They aren't scientific claims, they are political spin.

[time_has_come]

182. The article states that the findings are based on scientific research. I guess global warming

science could also be called "science" supporting a POV, as it so often is? Do you support that contention also?

[Piewhacket]

307. yea, I noticed you posted this so-called "science" based article....

it seems to me a provocative troll. Why people are responding is beyond me, but if you
are asking me to prove, on this public forum under the guise of "debate", you to
be twenty kinds of an idiot WHILST AT ALL TIMES carefully adhering to forum rule #3
then I'm willing to consider your request for its entertainment value.

I admit I'm a little out of practice though, its been a few years since usenet,
so I'll ask you first to spot me a point by explaining whether you actually know
anything at all about science , what it is, what it isn't, how it seeks to ask
and answer questions about the world ...

because I would just feel a bully beating the whey out of some poor defenseless
"creative design" advocate, if that were the case, after that judge damn near
held the last litigants and their lawyers in criminal contempt for their loony
misrepresentations and whacked out theories unsupported by either logic or law.
I would just feel a bully. I'm not a bully. I would have to respectfully decline.

So then, providing you are prepared to claim you know something meaningful about science,
you might explain what makes you think the article claims are based on "science"?

[Hubert Flottz]

160. I tried that stuff one time and I flew right out the window!

But MAN, did I have a happy landing!

The strange voices those schizophrenia sufferers heard was probably just the cops under their house trying to make a big bust and get a raise.

[madmax]

161. Well, now that explains it. >: o n/t

[snort]

164. Gotta love that adbot!

End marijuana addiction now. LOL! What a racket.

[MetaTrope]

166. Instead how about, "Schizophrenics are 7 times more likely to take the risk of using illegal drugs"

"...and then break under the social stress"? A chicken-and-the-egg thing, methinks.

[jberryhill]

208. That's My Question....

When you talk about the population of pot smokers, you are talking about a population of persons who has chosen to engage in an illegal activity.

That right there would seem to indicate that you would find a higher incidence of various types of psychopathic problems in the sample population.

[onehandle]

173. How can this be true when it's bad news about pot? nt

[RoccoR5955]

176. "Science has shown." I know a guy, Harry Science. He shows lots of stuff.

No study cited, just this "Science" guy showing something. If there is a study, reveal it. Don't just say some generality, and expect it to stick. At least not to me!

BTW- This was my first unrec.

[tabasco]

177. Gulliblity is linked to stupidity.

Take your post, for example.

[time_has_come]

179. What about my post is indicitive of stupidity?

I assume your a pot smoker and this angers you. Hence your brainless response.

[BadGimp]

178. Even a lie has some elements of the truth

I have seen a very very small % of people have episodes on pot. Was it the pot or were they predisposed. Either way pot was not for them. I have also know people who get ape-shit crazy on whiskey and tequila.

I have to be careful when I smoke because I become in my words: "hyper aware:. Alchol mutes the psychotic effect for me. So I only smoke when I drink. It's screwed up I know.

420

[CLANG]

181. Nothing wrong with cannabis

People that have never tried it should STFU! (pardon my latin)

[time_has_come]

186. Then I'll keep on not shutting up, with your permission

:evilgrin:

[CLANG]

194. Permission denied!!

:toast: :hi:

[Metta]

183. Since a few have ruined it for the many, there are many questions coming out of this.

What's their sample going to be? A too small sample and the study isn't valid for very much. Is the study longitutdinal? Will it be replicated?; absolutely necessary. How? Who develops what criteria for responses? Who creates the responses so as to not seem to suggest the answers?

Last paragraph, "... it has been suggested ...," without more clarity of how significant this was found in their study, this doesn't suggest much weight.

I'm sure other folks with more extensive backgrounds in testing could add to this.

[Boku-Wa]

185. Another sensationalized report that twists the results of the studies.

Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society, is full of shit if he actually said the following "that cannabis users have a seven-fold increase in risk of developing schizophrenia."

Either he was misquoted or he overreached - hey, there's lots of money to be made churning out the 'research' that government wants. Even the article in the Star says the research dollars are coming out of Ottawa's 'anti-drug' funds. Sounds like they have an agenda.

It's worth looking at the association between cannabis and the onset of schizophrenia among vulnerable individuals who have demonstrated symptoms of pyschosis, but there's no credible evidence that cannabis 'causes' schizophrenia.

And to suggest that all users of cannabis are at a 7 times higher risk of developing schizophrenia - as the article does - is pure ideology masquerading as science.

[time_has_come]

189. How do you know he is misquoted or overreaching and not citing the research he "points" to when

he makes that comment?

Not to mention the title states the same, and mainstream news media (from my own experience as a journalism major) does not pick news headlines lightly.

And before you jump on me for that last statement, recognize I'm talking about news pieces. Not sensationalized entertainment or op-ed stuff.

The Canadian Press is highly respected and publishes a large volume of standards that are utilized by all serious journalists. They would not have a headline like that if the research itself did not support it.

[Boku-Wa]

204. How do I know? Read the article and then google the subject. It's quite simple.

But this is a pervasive problem with media reports of scientific studies. They want to package it for the non-scientist and often - especially these days - reporters don't have the background to do that.

But, hey, believe whatever you want.

[time_has_come]

229. I've done both, and still can't understand how you can make your claim.

I choose to believe what I can evidence. It's not a question of what I want to believe. I can't see the evidence for your statements.

[CLANG]

198. Thank you.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

199. stop spamming

[theaocp]

193. Even *if* true,

prohibition is still worse. End of story.

Legalize and regulate!

[Zhade]

314. Good point. But it's NOT true.

NT!

[Zhade]

196. CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. THE END.

SUCH fucking bullshit -- my grandmother is schizophrenic. It runs in my family. Almost a decade of use and zero mental health issues for me.

[librechik]

421. WORD n/t

[slampoet]

197. Yet Jamaica, Costa Rica, Kashmir and other pot smoking regions have no increase in mental illness.

Funny how they can never replicate these results once studies are attempted in places where conservatives don't control the government.


Schizophrenia was usually a catch all bucket label for ANY young person with a mental problem. It has only changed as a diagnosis once it was found to be a chemical imbalance.

Please note that Harper's research goons are not looking for the chemical process, instead they are trying to gather statistics to spin.

Also note that the Schizophrenia Society of Canada person is located in Winnipeg a Well Known problem city for mental well being.

[CLANG]

200. What a coincidence!

[winyanstaz]

203. I dont believe this for a minute...

These people would have already had to be unhinged big time.

[Joanne98]

207. OH NOESSSSSSSSSS!

The movie Reefer Madness must be TRUE! EEK!!!!!!!!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=196068306363063432

You can always expect a bunch of pot propaganda whenever there's a Woodstock anniversary.

Tobacco and alcohol do WAY more damage than pot as in KILLING people. Nobody ever bitches about that. I bet if you investigated this study you will find they got PAID for it by guess who.


The corporations who are all invested in each other...

Big drug Big drink and big smoke don't what any competition.

DUH!

[grahamhgreen]

211. And what percentage were using Alcohol, Coffee, Chocolate, or on a high fat and sugar diet...?

[windoe]

212. Alcohol has it's share of mental and physical dangers,

and truth be told Cannabis is a specific use herb. It is not for everyone, not for every situation, and every herb has a dosage.

There are people who should not use cannabis, just as there are people who should not take a drink of alcohol. There are high THC varieties and much milder plants. Ideally if cannabis were made legal, responsible use would demand that the plants be identified according to their potency, officially, like alcohol is rated according to proof.

There is a sane way through legalization, all the facts must be weighed and measured, I believe, people would need to be informed about the cannabis plant. This is ALL about education and RESPONSIBLE USE.

Sure pot smoking was and is a part of counterculture, yet to have cannabis out of the shadows and into the light of day, and healthy discussions about the benefits and the limitations of using would make us all safer.

edited to add: This is all about RISK vs BENEFIT, and the benefits of legalization greatly outweigh the risks of legalizing cannabis. The drug crime syndicate, prison industrial complex, broken families have destroyed countless lives, many more than have predispositions for psychoses.

The countless health benefits of legalization also greatly outweigh the risks. How many pharmaceuticals are given out daily like skittles that have shocking and lethal side effects?? These studies need to be further examined and added to the whole cannabis picture, nothing is black and white. There are people allergic to alcohol and tobacco.

Freedom comes with responsibility, and I believe education.

[benld74]

214. Then they must have done it wrong!

[Tobin S.]

215. Marijuana makes me paranoid

And I have a psychosis inducing illness called schizoaffective disorder. Marijuana didn't cause the illness, though. In the book "Surviving Schizophrenia" the author says that illegal drug use probably doesn't cause permanent mental illness. It just so happens that when a lot of people develop severe mental illness they are young and more likely to be using illegal drugs than older people. There is no correlation. Illegal drug use can cause a temporary state of "mental illness" but it goes away after the effect of the drug wears off.

[LanternWaste]

216. I imagine anyone would go a little schizo

I imagine anyone would go a little schizo after watching Wizard of Oz while listening to Dark Side of the Moon and eating seven pounds of White Castle...

<a href="" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[LuckyLib]

217. This shit is what happens when folks don't know how to read, report on, or interpret research.

There may be some strange relationship between A and B, but that doesn't mean A causes B or is caused by B.

The MSM runs with stuff like this and by the time it hits the public it's complete nonsense.

[BobTheSubgenius]

218. First of all, I wonder if it's an example of the "chicken-or-the-egg" syndrome.

People with certain mental illnesses are FAR more likely to self-medicate than another person with the otherwise same circumstances. That would skew the statistics quite a bit, in and of itself. Perhaps if I read the study, that would be accounted for.....but I don't really care to, because I know all I need to know about it for my own "use", so to speak.

That being said, smoking pot can cause dissociative disorders to manifest. I've seen it, lived with it, and had many incidents related to me by my best friend, a mental health professional with 25 years of experience.

Also, I live in Victoria (formerly "City of Gardens" and now "City of Hydroponic Gardens") and sometimes the bud is almost unimaginably strong. Certainly compared to the fond remembrances of my youth. I had to give it up many years ago, because it made me feel like I was having a stroke. I was also anxious, apprehensive and slightly paranoid after using it. Took the fun WAY out of it.

[scentopine]

220. 220 posts on this? I need a drink.

[jberryhill]

221. "CEO of the Schizophrenia Society"

He then went on further to say, "Stop looking at me like that. I can feel your eyes penetrating my brain and making the thoughts fly out of my head and once they get out they are going to fly around and kill us all. I'm keeping my memory of you like a picture and I'm going to burn it in my prayers so that you will burn forever and God will judge you as a sinner like you'll never forget."

[24601]

222. I heard it also affects memory, but we can't recall where that was

documented. What were we talking about again?

[madokie]

224. Thats bull shit

and a bunch of it.

read what they're saying and tell me this is legit. bullhockey is what it is

[chicago legal pro]

227. The response by the DUer pot smokers is classic

The right wing doesn't like the concept of global warming so they say the science must be bad. Pot smokers don't like the fact that pot can send you off the deep end so the science must be bad. Strange bed fellows indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

235. Yeah, the fact that the study hasn't been completed and suggest little to no controls

has nothing to do with the fact that it just may be "government propaganda."

We all know that any conscious altering drug must be used with caution. No thoughtful person is insisting that marijuana can NOT be dangerous for some people. However, many of us believe that marijuana should be decriminalized. Unfortunately big pharma (who seemingly owns our government along with Wall Street and The Pentagon) is making too much money off of Marinol to allow even medicinal use via the traditional smoking or brownie eating delivery systems.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/ongoing/marinol.html

But I can convey with confidence that, as it's presented within this short article, the design of this proposed study is flawed from the onset. If it's run as is, it should not be endorsed by any person who values The Scientific Method.

[chicago legal pro]

247. You used all the same arguments the right uses with global warming

Every single one. It is just "government propaganda", etc. How many hits have you taken today?

[ShortnFiery]

263. No, read my posts again?

As a masters level student enrolled within an experimental psychology course, my professors taught me one all important tenet: If your design is flawed, your findings will be worthless.

Again, the DESIGN of this study does not have an adequate sample population (>50) and does not suggest any controls for extraneous factors.

Too funny FYI: I was fresh out of the Army and tested into the PhD. level course. I argued with the professor that it must be "a fluke" as my other masters level friends were enjoying a dumbed down graduate level statistic course. But no, I made the cut and was forced to remain in this course. After countless hours in the computer lab and in my apartment running BMDP data base software through my PC and 1200 baud modem (linked to the university's computer), I survived the course with an A-. Not bad for a lowly advanced degree puke, aye?

Forgive me, I'm the furthest thing from a right wing knuckle dragger: I value science. :nerd:

[chicago legal pro]

272. I agree with your general points

I wish DUers and everyone else would take science where it takes us. No matter if it steps on the toes of a vice we partake in or not.

[Zhade]

403. It has to be actual science first.

NT!

[Gman2]

296. That is crap. There is a tenuous linkage. We still need to determine what that is.

[Divine Discontent]

237. there is certainly a higher risk of flipping out by using pot, I'm not saying it shouldn't be used,

not at all, however, to refute the facts is asinine, indeed.

I used it only a few times, I enjoyed it somewhat, however, I felt rather disconnected from life when I was using it (and not necessarily just when I was 'using' it), and the friend I did it with 'changed' and become rather crazy over time, and became irrational when he exhibited calm behavior before using it. There's an argument that perhaps he was going to do this anyhow, but the fact is that he was smoking every couple days, and people can decry that fact all they want, but it is one. Also, 3 teens in a car that I knew, while high, nearly killed one of their friends because they weren't paying attention --- as I've always said to people - driving and smoking is an absolute stupid move.

The report stands on the facts - EVERY situation is different, and of course, some people would surely become mentally ill regardless of their use of pot, but it's still facts based on use vs. non-use.

[Wizard777]

250. When you've seen what the government has tried to masquerade as Science.

You wouldn't really blame us for being shy about accepting "Government Studies" as truth. I mean really, how many times did George Bush lie to you before you started calling BS on everything he said just as a reflex. Hell it was pure muscle memory. BS! It wasn't all that long ago "government studies" were showing marijuana made black men rape white women.......and play Jazz music. Some of the stuff they've come out with lately isn't much better than that.

[time_has_come]

262. Where does it say the research already done was a "government study"??

[grahamhgreen]

300. No. It could have been any number of factors - alchohol, coffee, whatever -

It's the alchohol - in fact it's alchohol that has churned out the selfish uncaring modern age , IMHO.

[DCKit]

343. You're assuming we all smoke and don't just know B.S. propaganda when we see it.

Sorry, but eight years of BushCo* and this crew all have honorary (but well deserved) PhD's in BullShit.

Teh War on Marijuana is an incredibly expensive, miserable failure. However, it's also incredibly lucrative for those poised to collect a salary for "fighting" and, especially, for the for-profit prison corporations who make a killing of housing and "employing" low-risk offenders.

By the way, 95% of the "marijuana" seizures carried out by the DEA (and others) are for hemp, a.k.a. "ditchweed", not marijuana.

Keep the Terra level at ultra-violet and funding flows in rivers.

[uncle ray]

351. i see you are choosing words carefully.

"the concept of global warming", non believer are you?

"the fact that pot can send you off the deep end". odd word usage considering the scientific community overwhelmingly agrees that GW is indeed happening for a fact. that is a far cry from the few limited studies that claim that pot causes mental illness. in fact the scientific community also overwhelmingly believes that pot is for the most part harmless, so any association of pot smokers and global warming deniers is purely dreamed up in your head. if only laws were actually based on science...we'd have readily available legal weed, and highly regulated yet still legal alcohol, based on risk calculated on actual scientific data.

[chicago legal pro]

395. You don't follow the latest science

Global warming has fallen into disuse by the scientific community in favor of global climate change. That's why I used the words I did. I notice in your campaign for "readily available legal weed" you didn't mention cigarettes. Would those be ok in your view? Along with "highly regulated" alcohol -- whatever that means. Go take another hit on your bong uncle.

[bitchkitty]

232. LMAO!

It has been suggested that 100% of people who had a psychotic episode drank mother's milk and formula when they were babies. Therefore, breast milk and formula cause cancer.

[swishyfeet]

234. My best childhood friend became schizo

Smoked pot heavily in high school. At age 17 had a psychotic break and his life was completely upended by schizophrenia. His mother moved with him to be nearer their extended family and I never heard from him again. We were the best of friends for 10 years.

Yes, just another anecdote, but among my childhood best friends there is a 1-1 correlation between schizophrenia and heavy pot usage.

[Divine Discontent]

239. amen... I lost the love of my life to heavy pot use...

he pushed me away hard, and the more pot he used the less compassionate and anti-me he became, but when he was not, or barely using it, he thought the world of me and was a very giving person. As the pot use became daily, he was quite paranoid and cruel. I cry over the loss of him from time to time. I thought I'd finally found love in my life, and then to lose it because he associated the bad times with me, instead of the drugs, is quite saddening. Oh well, best we can do is move on and remember the good times, and encourage others to resist the leaf.

[Gman2]

293. My business partner went schizo. He jumped from the coronado bridge.

He did smoke pot, but was going before that. Genius, sensitive artist. The system abandoned him.

[Gman2]

295. My second cousin wandered out into the desert, Schizo.

[Zhade]

405. Still not evidence of causation.

NT!

[Roon]

238. My shrink won't tell me if I am schizophrenic or not

but I do know when I was a teen-ager I HATED smoking pot because of the anxiety and paranoia I would experience.]

It wasn't until I was in my mid 20's,after I started taking zoloft and three other drugs, that I was finally able to enjoy pot. No more paranoia or anxiety. Just a lot of giggling and snacking.

[MrMickeysMom]

310. Now, that was an interesting comment...

Perhaps we need to see studies whereby pyschoactive substances excite chemistry related to various levels of psychosis. You acted differently with anti-psychotic drugs on board.

[Eric68601]

240. Time for a commercial break

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJzIYv_mE04

[wildbilln864]

242. some studies!

linky
:banghead:

[junior college]

243. I smoke mary jane wanna once or twice a day and lately I've been talking to

myself. Nothing too much, just muttering stuff to myself under my breath. Sometimes when I know no one is around I'll actually talk to myself. Perhaps I should keep off the grass and stop "smokin' them hooters on my land" as the farmer barked.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

244. Since the government doesn't allow studies involving cannibas

I seriously doubt this is actually the case. I see that no citations were given.

[quakerboy]

246. I love how we cannot have any middle ground

Pot is either gods gift to man, or its a devil drug out to kill us all. There must be no sane thoughts in regard to marijuana. None.

[chicago legal pro]

248. No sane thoughts?

I think that was the point of the study.

[quakerboy]

275. well played

I award you the point.

[Zhade]

404. Complete bullshit, of course. Stop lying about what the study says.

There is ZERO evidence of causation here.

[LanternWaste]

261. Moderation in all things...

Moderation in all things. I imagine that applies to pot as well as alcohol.

As much visceral entertainment as I receive from watching a few particular pot advocates on this thread reacting precisely as fundies do when someone ridicules and minimizes their faith and using science as the choice tool of that ridicule, I myself see pot as little more than I see alcohol, or sleep-aiding aspirin.

That being said, much like an alcoholic will often deny both to himself and others that he may have an emotional or physical dependency on his "just one bottle of wine a night" habit, I imagine there are many pot users who are also emotionally dependent on it, and just a righteously rail against any perceived threat to that denial.

Sacred cows indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

267. "emotionally dependent" = Psychologically Dependent possibly but much

less likely to be Physiologically dependent (psychedelics) than those folks on opiates or amphetamines. :shrug:

Many of us are NOT avidly promoting FREE FORM marijuana use ... not at all. However, it should at least be decriminalized as treatments of ONLY marijuana abuse are reported as highly successful when the user is motivated.

[LanternWaste]

271. I have zero problems with decriminalization, or legalizing it.

I have zero problems with its decriminalization, or legalizing it. Given the opportunity, a person will hide behind anything to escape examining one's own conscious. Outlaw pot, something else will be put in its place

From pot to bad science-fiction books, that person will always find a justification to abuse hos tool of choice.

[quakerboy]

276. Ouch

Decriminalize Pot now. Or something else. Anything to get the spotlight off my rampant Sci-Fi habit. Any anyone who says they are gateway books to hard science is purely a hater. There is no proof of anything. And you hate words. stuff.

[ShortnFiery]

277. Well put, thank-you for the clarification.

:toast:

[slackmaster]

253. Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma

Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma
Schizophrenia vs. prostate cancer and glaucoma


:argh:

[time_has_come]

256. why "vs."? If you are on chemo, or have glaucoma, then pot is helpful. If you don't...

..then this research may be helpful.

It's not an either/or thing.

[onehandle]

254. Pot CANNOT be studied! It is immune to research! nt

[johnaries]

255. Actually, I think that people with schizophrenic tendencies

tend to smoke pot because they are "self-medicating".

I'm just basing this on personal experience and no scientific evidence, but during my "pot days" I did have a couple of friends that had a very different reaction to it than I did. Whereas it was just a "party drug" to me, it seemed to make them more "normal".

At the time (70's and 80's), nobody had ever heard of ADD or ADHD, much less "adult" versions. But as I have looked back on these old friends I realize that when they were straight they did exhibit all the symptoms of Adult ADHD - when they weren't smoking pot, that is.

Here's an interesting tidbit. One of those people had a hysterectomy in her teens. Later, she was officially diagnosed as having "multiple personalities" by a psychiatrist. I can confirm this, because when we were roommates she had an episode in which she punched holes in the walls of our apartment, threatened me with a kitchen knife, and then held the knife to her own throat saying "one day I'll show you all!". She moved out the next day, although I begged her to stay. She later told me she moved out because she was embarrassed and also because she was afraid, and that's when she told me about her "multiple personality" diagnosis. She told me that her psychiatrist told her that he had exhausted all treatments and he simply couldn't help her.

Much later, she developed a breast lump and was referred to a surgeon. The surgeon referred to her medical history, and rather than "cut her" saw her early hysterectomy and put her on hormone treatments. The lump didn't go away, but her multiple personality syndrome disappeared completely. She went back to her previous psychiatrist who confirmed that she was CURED of her multiple personality disorder!

Unfortunately, the lump turned out to be cancer. She fought it for years.

I will alway love you, Sylvia, my dear friend. Despite all your "quirks". And I miss you.

[NoSheep]

259. So what does this tell you? If you are mentally unstable-don't smoke pot.

Period. No brainer. Most people I know who feel unstable naturally choose not to smoke, even if they have previously been smokers.

Next?

[realitythink]

260. What a load of fucking bullshit!!

It sounds like an onion piece.

[slay]

264. Oh please - more anti-drug propaganda

I'd like to see some REAL research into this - and not some bullshit headline from "The Star". I know TONS of people who smoke/have smoked weed and you know how many have had a psychotic episode? NONE! After all the LIES various governments spew about marijuana, they are nowhere near credible on this issue. LEGALIZE IT, let people have a choice, inform them, but then back off and let people live their lives and consume what they want! :smoke:

[Ho Tai]

270. This is about Marc Emery

The book I've recently been going by is "Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts," a copiously-annotated work on a plant which has been studied by the cold eye of science for 100+ years. Myth #10: Marijuana causes psychological impairment. This means that statistically, the "H-naught" hypothesis holds: you won't see any more schizophrenia in pot smokers than in the general population. In the general populace the figure is around 1%. In those 1 in 100 people, stressors can of course trigger psychosis. If you're schizophrenic or if it runs in your family, then be careful trying pot.

But this article is suggesting that we've "just discovered" that ANYONE has 7X the chance of becoming schizophrenic if they smoke. Believe me, there are enough pot-HATERS out there that if there was even a correlation, they'd be screaming about it, just like they would if weed were correlated with cancer.

Leave it to Prime-Weasel Stephen Harper to "gin up" a study like this one. Know why? Because he is worried about the coming extradition of Marc Emery to a US Federal prison for 5 years. Have you even HEARD of Marc Emery? Didn't think so... He sold pot seeds through his magazine, "Cannabis Culture," to Canada and the US, for YEARS, OPENLY, FROM Canada. When your DEA said enuff's enuff, our government was only too happy to help them arrest Mr. Emery ON CANADIAN SOIL. He was facing extradition & life in a US prison, cuz your cocksucking DEA counted each seed as KILOS of youth-killing marijuana. So he cut a deal for a "mere" 5 years of his life. Like it's a goddamned game!

I don't think it matters how you feel about cannabis -- for a Canuck, this is clearly a matter of sovereignty. We're either our own country or we're the 51st fucking state. Our press-whores have not been covering this AT ALL. They know who butters their goddamned bread! MAYBE they'll mention it the day Mr. Emery's sent over to Tortureland. We have the same morons-per-capita as you, so when the dum-dums see it on the teevee they'll say, "Never heard of him, but it IS a dangerous drug. It causes schizophrenia."


Dear Lord, THANK YOU I was not born an American!

(sorry)

[frylock]

383. welcome aboard!

:applause:

[Ho Tai]

431. Thank you

It's an honour to be here.

DU, Commondreams, Bartcop, The Rude Pundit...all I need.

[applegrove]

278. I've heard it from several sources.

[HughMoran]

279. As "crazy" as this article seems, this is the reason I can't smoke any more

Stuff makes me so paranoid that I have PTSD like flashbacks for weeks after smoking. I just can't smoke any more.

[Gman2]

285. That would be a very bad thing for me. Death. I need it to continue to breathe.

Congestive heart failure.

[FarrenH]

313. Out of interest, what are you paranoid about?

[HughMoran]

388. The weed sets off a set of physical responses that makes me feel defenseless

My vision gets shimmery (very disconcerting) and I become extremely light sensitive. I have trouble breathing correctly and obsess over it as I feel like I'm going to suffocate at times. I have other strange physical sensations. The combined effect is a runaway feedback loop that overwhelms me and makes me feel extremely defenseless (I could not interact with people if needed) and so I become paranoid and lock myself in my bedroom until the effects wear off. Even though I smoked pounds of pot in my life, between the stuff being SO strong these days and my body not being what it once was (>45), I just can't smoke it again - ever. I've always been for legalization, though I also believe that some people should not smoke it.

[FarrenH]

393. I have a friend who used to get what he calls "The Greens"

He just found himself unable to communicate with other people or do anything except sit quietly when in company. He says he felt "overwhelmed". It sounds like a similar reaction, if not quite the same - perhaps just less acute. I know when I was smoking a lot I went through a social paranioia stage where I only smoked alone for a while otherwise I didn't enjoy it.

I'm with you all the way on the legalisation thing. I think people post rashly here, going into lala land where any adverse reactions are denied simply because they're responding to a century of ludicrous anti-dope propaganda. But it clearly hits some people the wrong way. Just not enough to be particularly harmful in 99.9% of cases, hence my long screed upthread about the importance of talking about real risk factors and degree of harm as the basis of legal prescriptions, rather than simply existence of harm. Because on that basis, pot, Ecstasy AND LSD are all less risky in terms of physical dependence, risk of the kind of side effects being discussed, physical harm and social harm, than tobacco and alcohol. And thats a qualfied medical assessment by a government mandated body of a developed country that is unburdened by hysteria and political pressure.

[jaysunb]

280. Where was this guy 50 years ago ??

They just said it would make hair grow in your hands. (so far nothing)
Guess I need to see about getting some meds. :evilfrown:

[pnwmom]

287. Recommend. I wish the un-recommend feature didn't exist.

Too many people use it to squelch valid discussions of issues.

[FarrenH]

290. I think its important to quantify degree and likelyhood of harm

rather than simply establish its existence. Pot prohibition in the US was massively influenced by corporate interests unrelated to health concerns, as indicated by other posters here, and pot prohibition around the world was in turn strongly influenced by that.

Generations of people grew up listening to relentless anti-pot propaganda with no science behind it, regardless of what scientific material is available today. And that has created a lens through which people parse current evidence. At the best of times, non-scientists and lay individuals without a keen interest in science often misunderstand the significance of statistics, correlation et al. In an environment where something's been demonized in a thoroughly unscientific fashion that lens is further distorted. I'm not a scientist, just a software engineer, but I have spent a lifetime reading scientific literature for fun, including literature on logic, epistemology and so on - the fundamentals of doing science and parsing scientific evidence.

The statements I'm interested in coming out of the scientific community are all some form of "may trigger..." and "may aggrevate..."

A little background. I grew up smoking pot. I don't now but I smoked pot chronically for around a decade and a half. Furthermore, around 70% of my friends chronically smoked pot. Statistics indicate that 80% of South Africans use pot at some point in their lives and a high percentage (which I forget right now, but I recall its in the 10's) are chronic (but not necessarily in high dosages) users. We are not a nation of schizophrenics. I've had a silver-haired CEO of a major company quietly slip me some good weed because he guessed I was a user and want to thank me for multiple favours. I met a programmer that was successful enough to only have to work 4 months of the year and travel the world in between, who claimed he was so used to developing while stoned he couldn't write a program if he didn't light up first. My childhood friends, all of whom smoked pot with me, are all engineers, business owners (of businesses they built from scratch), network specialists and so on. 90% of them have honors or master's degrees. I've also encountered drug abusers who's lives are or were train wrecks because of drug abuse (specifically coke, alcohol, meth and mandrax) and that's stimulated a lifetime interest in the differences between and individual effects of psychoactive drugs from a scientific perspective. I'm 40 years old.

I think there are a quite a few people on this thread who's experiences mirror my own, which is why there's an inevitable round of facepalming when someone posts a breathless article about the dangers of pot. Millions, possibly hundreds of millions of people around the world have a massive surfeit of experience with the drug and have never seen it ruin a life. A sociable 40-year old like myself has a sample size of thousands of examples which crosses the line from anecdotal into statistically significant.

And - here's the important bit - the "growing body" of scientific literature describing possible dangers of pot does absolutely nothing to refute that personal experience. One common way of mis-parsing science (as described earlier) is to read "there is a risk" then add your own significant magnitude to that risk in your mind, this latter element being totally unsupported by the science. Where something like pot is concerned that is, IMO, very common among people who (a) have no experience with the drug and especially (b) have some experience of an outlier, who may either be part of the miniscule sample of victims of that risk OR, as implied by a wealth of studies, be self-medicators who are responding to an existing condition (and who even further to that may be taking a slew of other substances, complicating conclusions about which one is doing harm).

With that in mind, lets examine the evidence for a pot-schizophrenia link and what can be claimed, from available evidence, about the magnitude of the risk and degree of harm: Between 0.5% and 1% of the population suffers from schizophrenia in most country statistics I've seen- call it .75%. All of the studies I've seen linking marijuana to triggering of a schizophrenic condition indicate that high risk (75%+) only applies to users who consume large amounts chronically. If we make a reasonable assumption that that constitutes, say 20% of users, it means the risk of any arbitrary individual triggering a schizophrenic condition due to pot use is 75% of 20% of .75%, or .11% of all pot users. So 11 out of every 1000 pot users risk triggering a schizophrenic condition. And that's based on quite pessimistic assumptions. Is that a good reason to proscribe pot use, or advise people with no history of mental illness not to use it? No.

And in fact when magnitude of risk and harm, rather than simply existence of risk, is fairly and scientifically appraised, pot comes out looking a whole lot safer than legal substances.

The UK Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), a panel of experts tasked with advising the UK government on drug policy, use a risk assessment matrix to evaluate the overall harm of various drugs, taking into account known values for physical harm, dependency and social harm. The simple graph showing where they place different drugs when its reduced to a single axis scale might surprise you (look where cannabis is relative to tobacco and alcohol in terms of dependency, physical and social harm - even more interesting, look where LSD and Ecstacy are on the scale):



The color coding shows current classification in law, which is totally out of sync with objectively assessed harm, as it is in many countries. This graph was drawn up in 2008, so it represents a very current, very scientfic view that takes into account available evidence for links between various drugs and mental illness. More information about the matrix and its implications can be found in the following policy discussion document from the House of Commons Science and Technology Department:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmsctech/1031/1031.pdf">Drug classification: making a hash of it?

[frylock]

297. cite the study..

you've been challenged several times in this thread to prove the study actually exists. it, nor any mention of the study, aside from links to this article, can be found ANYWHERE on the interwebs. provide a link. ANYTHING.

[grahamhgreen]

298. No They don't! Yes they do! No They don't! Yes they do! No They don't! Yes they do! Aieee!!!!!!!

[tiny elvis]

303. fear is the mind killer

[lovuian]

305. I think the Pot now days has something harmful in it

it can't be trusted

[FarrenH]

312. Pot these days is stronger, for the most part

that's about it. It just means less pot gets you the same amount of high, thanks to a lot of selective breeding.

There different species of pot - Sativa, Indica and Ruderalis, which purportedly produce slightly different highs. But thats always been true.

[uncle ray]

352. "which purportedly produce slightly different highs"

we need to get some scientists on this ASAP or else we may never know if the different "species" of pot produce different highs, or if it's just the delusions of the schizos who are on The Pot. then wee need to get someone to look into this inter-species breeding of pot plants. it may be part of the gay agenda. :tinfoilhat:

[ProudDad]

319. Bullshit -- come on folks, follow the money...

WINNIPEG -- Ottawa is giving the Schizophrenia Society of Canada more than $500,000 to educate Canadians about the link between smoking pot and an increased risk of psychosis.

http://www.theprovince.com/health/Anti+grant+given+Schizophrenia+Society/1907085/story.html

PR bull shit for money!!!

[time_has_come]

324. Ottawa also funds global warming research. Is that "bullshit" as well?

Characterizing scientific research as "PR bull shit" is a dangerous, slippery slope, unless you have some substantive evidence of it.

[ProudDad]

337. To quote McCamy Taylor

Association is not causality!

Global Warming has more than one lousy study, it has the majority of Climate Scientists and their work over that past Century plus behind it.

"Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society, said the public doesn't realize that cannabis users have a seven-fold increase in risk of developing schizophrenia."

Should probably read: "the public doesn't realize that schizophrenics have a 7 fold increase change of manifesting their symptoms if they use large quantities of pot"...

Schizophrenia is genetic and environmentally caused (as far as they know -- they admit they don't fully know what CAUSES it -- that's why they can't "cure" it)...

-----------------

Nice try at a red herring though... :eyes:

[time_has_come]

340. The link between pot and psycotic onset has more than "one lousy study" also...

...and your bias shows when you call a study you know nothing about "lousy."

Nobody, nowhere, has said that schizophrenia is not genetic or hereditary. The conclusion of the study is that it makes the onset more likely to occur.

[ProudDad]

415. So does "mother's milk"

and Oxygen...

and, possibly, Fruit Loops...

So we should begin a phony war on those?

---------------------------------------

See, I don't use ANYTHING...(except coffee)...

I have no dog in this hunt, except...

The phony drug war has cost us all dearly and sent some friends of mine to prison needlessly...

It also made my work helping people in recovery more difficult since the phony war makes it harder for the few who abuse drugs to seek out help...

This article is another lame excuse to continue the phony "war on drugs"...for that... I PISS ON IT!

-------------------------------------

On edit: from that article "It has been suggested that up to 80 per cent of youth who have had a psychotic episode were using cannabis."

Another reason is don't pass the sniff test -- beware when they have to say "It has been suggested"...

That means they're fucking lying!!!

[ProudDad]

417. Ok, where are they?

YOUR bias is showing...

You are defending a weak, self-serving "study" with unsubstantiated claims to "other studies"...

What's your agenda? Why did you post this provocative nonsense in the first place?

[time_has_come]

420. No, I'm defending science. It's you who is showing bias by calling it "weak" and "self-serving" with

nothing to indicate that, one way or the other.

My agenda? I want to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, of course.

And if you want to see what other studies have been done google cannabis and psychosis and/or mental health. Easy peasy.

[time_has_come]

327. And there's no mention that the already completed research was government funded anyway...

..not that it should matter if it was. The dismissal of science due to government funding, without evidence that the government had a hand in manipulating the reported results as was the case in the Bush admin, is a habit usually associated with the global warming denial crowd.

[ProudDad]

338. See post #337 (n/t)

[time_has_come]

344. Seen and replied to. You didn't really respond to my comment about..

..the wrong-headedness of dismissing scientific studies funded with government money outright.

Not to mention that the study/research that's already happened is not identified as being government funded.

Sure, global warming and the amount of science supporting the conclusion that we're causing it is different. The behavior of dismissing science because the money/funding is from government is the same though. Not a "red herring" at all.

[ProudDad]

416. I dismiss THIS study as anomalous and self-serving... (n/t)

[McCamy Taylor]

330. I am SURE this was a prospective double blinded study.....not.

Altogether now....

Association is not causality.

Jeez. The things that get printed.

[ProudDad]

336. Tell me about it!

:hi:

[ShortnFiery]

358. True. And there is a large body of social science research that suggest scizophrenia

has a strong genetic component. Therefore, the expression of the disorder requires both a genetic flaw and an environmental insult.

Scientific evidence today, would support the notion that both nature and nurture are the combining factors that contribute to scizophrenia.

To be honest, if I were diagnosed with terminal cancer, if at all possible, I would freely use marijuana in order to lessen pain and anxiety. Further, use of this mild psychedelic MAY help SOME PEOPLE those with terminal illness "come to terms" (spiritually and emotionally) with their mortality. I think it would be worthwhile to conduct studies on the suggested hypothesis above instead of hyper-focusing a CAUSAL relationship between THC and scizophrenia.

My suggestion, if you tend to have "breaks with reality" the use of psychedelics may not be a wise choice, recreationally or medicinally. :shrug:

[AlphaCentauri]

335. Anything that alter the state of mind could be harmful

no need to be a scientist to come to that conclusion.

[chknltl]

345. My first ever unrecommended

First off, as others have pointed out, the early alleged study is not cited, secondly the purpose of the further study is to used to provide warnings against marijuana use. If this combination does not illustrate bias to folks reading it.....

To those fellow DUers who still don't see the connection, let me alter the study by one word: caffeine and add a running snarkfilled comentary:

Harper government devotes funds to studying the link between caffeine use and mental illness

Aug 19, 2009 10:55 AM
THE CANADIAN PRESS
WINNIPEG – The Harper government is putting up $550,000 to gather research on caffeine use and mental illness.
((well it's about time someone did such a study!))

The Schizophrenia Society of Canada will use the money to further research the links between caffeine and early psychosis as well as develop promotional materials warning youth about the dangers of drinking caffeine.
((representatives from Starbucks were unavailable for comment at this time....hmmmmmm...))

The money is part of Ottawa's $30 million national anti-drug strategy announced in 2007.
(($30 million huh? Well I should hope we soon see safer saner streets in Ottawa!))

Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society, said the public doesn't realize that caffeine users have a seven-fold increase in risk of developing schizophrenia.
((chknltl strongly urges Chris Summerville to look into the link between road rage and caffeine too.))

He pointed to recent research out of Victoria, B.C., linking caffeine and mental illness.
((What research was that? Did he ask folks over at the Free Republic for their opinions?))

As part of the society's research, some 30 youths who have experienced psychosis will be trained to gather information about the reasons their peers use caffeine.
((AHA!!! Research was indeed done over at the Free Republic!!1!1!!))

The results will be used to develop educational materials aimed at decreasing the use of illicit drugs among young people. ((I knew it! Caffeine really is a gateway drug!!!)

Winnipeg Conservative MP Joy Smith said Tuesday that while the public regards caffeine as a soft drug, ((Good on them!)) there may be very serious consequences for young caffeine users who have a predisposition to mental illness.((Sounds plausable enough but where is the peer reviewed science?))

"Science has shown that caffeine may actually trigger the onset of psychosis ((especially road rage)) and may also intensify the symptoms for those who already have a psychotic illness," Smith said in announcing the grant. ((Again WHERE is THIS science???))

"It has been suggested that up to 80 per cent of youth who have had a psychotic episode were using caffeine. ((I'll bet the number is higher)) And that's pretty shocking," said Smith, who was filling in for Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq at news conference. ((Perhaps Leona Aglluggaq has a daughter who works for Busty Bikini Barista Babes over in Winnepeg's Industrial Park))


Did my alteration make you chuckle in places and go hmmmm in other places?? Well that's what the original story should have done too imo. Caffeine is arguably worse for folks than cannabis if one excludes the fact of arcane/draconian laws.

Folks can be affected adversely by pretty much anything. One doesn't have to be a doctor to come up with a study linking a mental disorder to caffeine-has the person with the disorder ever drank caffeine? BINGO! See how easy that is?

OTOH powerful industrialists gain little to nothing off of demonizing caffeine. The pharmaceutical industry and the cotton industry and even Dupont's own Nylon, Rayon and etc industries do NOT want to compete with a marijuana industry. It would cut into their profits. How much of their $$ do you suppose will go into studies (like this) which set out to intentionally demonize marijuana?

To those who are related to or know someone with Schizophrenia, my heart goes out to you. May I suggest that you look to studies that are not so obviously biased. If you still insist on believing the credibility of this Canadian 'research', perhaps you might consider the caffeine connection I snarkily suggested as equally credible.

FWIW, when I drink a cup of coffee and drive anywhere, my driving IS impaired. I find myself more in a hurry, I drive more aggressively and everyone seems to be in my way. For this reason I have dramatically cut back on my caffeine intake. Furthermore, caffeine is mood altering and addictive. A caffeine-o-holic can experience debilitating withdrawal symptoms. Are there any doubts that a study between caffeine use and road rage would turn up alarming statistics? Who is to say what a study regarding caffeine and Schizophrenia may turn up-not that the coffee industry would ever want to see such a study undertaken.

To sum up, caffiene: bad-but not so bad. Few have any financial need to see it outlawed. Marijuana: not so bad but illegle and there are powerful industries who don't want to have to compete with it. Therefore marijuana is made to seem much worse than it really is in order to keep it from being legalized. This Canadian 'study' is but one of many many examples of this. Perhaps Pot does have an adverse affect upon the masses, well an adverse affect that does not include paying fines or jail-time. I'd not suggest looking to biased studies such as this to find any real adverse affects though.

[TerribleLarryDingle]

347. Obvious troll thread is obvious

[DeSwiss]

354. The most important information in the article....

...was left out. And that was the first line.

WINNIPEG – The Harper government is putting up $550,000 to gather research on marijuana use and mental illness.

- Anyone who believes that Harper asshole probably is schizophrenic.

[onehandle]

356. It's not true because I SAY it can't be true! nt

[Name removed]

406. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

357. Yeah, sure...

... correlation does not equal causation.

Most mental illnesses of this sort manifest in the late teen years, coincidentally the same time most people would begin to experiment with recreational drugs.

People who are suffering from mental disorders are much more likely to attempt to self-medicate with recreational drugs.

This "study" is most likely complete and total bullshit.

[Hugin]

360. Now, let's talk about how nicotine seems to help schizophrenia!

:bounce:

[daedalus_dude]

362. K&R. Yep it happens.

[Steerpike]

368. Bullshit

I have not smoked pot in 14 years. But, I did smoke for near 18 years. I smoked about a ton of pot. I smoked in the morning and in the night. I smoked pot rolled in paper, I smoked it in a pipe. I smoked it alone and I smoked it with strangers. I loved smoking pot. And, I'm here to tell you it won't cause mental illness.

(yes it will)

whoose that??

[truthisfreedom]

370. The predisposed self-medicate.

Cause/effect blur.

[panzerfaust]

380. Correlation is not Causation

The number of whore-houses a city has, closely correlates with the number of churches that it has - as well as with the number of parking spaces, hot-dog sellers, police officers, and latte-bars.

It is unlikely that cannabis is any more closely correlated with schizophrenia than is alcohol, or coffee - possibly even with the number of Big Macs eaten (basing this latter on the assumption that the more disorganized your thought processes, the less likely you are to throw together a Mediterranean meal at home & the more likely you are to go with fast-food).

[robcon]

386. Where did you come up with that?

panzerfaust: "It is unlikely that cannabis is any more closely correlated with schizophrenia than is alcohol, or coffee"

I don't know the answer before the research is completed, but apparently you do!!!

I think there's a good reason to field the research, and I await the results before making conclusions.

[onehandle]

381. Corinthian is not Canadian. nt

[killbotfactory]

394. Don't worry folks, I and a few million other people are currently researching the problem

We will report back with results if we can remember to do so.

...

Has anyone seen where I put my keys?

[chknltl]

400. Oxyconton causes terrible physical problems and yet

nobody is doing any studies on keeping it outlawed. Strange huh? Where's the outcry! What is more important, keeping oxyconton out of kid's hands or keeping pot out of kid's hands?

[Harry Pierce]

402. I have a cousin

who is schizophrenic, born that way. When he would get ahold of pot, which was often, it sent him over the edge, they would have to peel him off the walls.

It's true.

[Zhade]

409. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure it is.

NT!

[KamaAina]

411. Oh, caca de toro

Did it ever occur to these eminent scientists that people with incipient psychiatric illness might be self-medicating with cannabis? Remember, it's all but legal in B.C.

[deep1]

414. As someone who studied biology..........

just because someone performs a study, and sees a slight correlation, it does not make it TRUE. Science is trial and error. There could have been other factors. People don't understand that. What is the population size? Margin of error?

Whatever........

[redqueen]

424. The scientific ignorance in this thread is downright shocking. (nt)

[Ho Tai]

429. Where'd My Post Go?

It was reply #270, "This Is About Marc Emery." I click it and it isn't there.

Ooops, sorry, here it is. I guess the Intertubes are a little constipated today...

:)

[harry_pothead]

430. REEFER MADNESS!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG