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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:47 AM
Original message
BREAKING NEWS: Obama will seek to block Gitmo interrogation photos, official tells NBC News
Source: MSNBC

No link yet
http://www.msnbc.msn.com /

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. For what possible reason?
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Because we can't handle the truth.....
...or some such bullshit like that.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Well, I WANT the truth...
...because IMO if this comes out, Obama will have NO place to go except to find Bush, Cheney and the rest of the cabal and see that the motherfuckers are charged.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
328. Exactly

"because IMO if this comes out, Obama will have NO place to go except to find Bush, Cheney and the rest of the cabal and see that the motherfuckers are charged."

It's a very cynical political decision.


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SWr Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #328
521. why
What purpose does it serve for you to see them?

For the Truth? Truth isnt reality lots of people here on DU make up their OWN truths
to satisfy their own SICK facination with distorted reality
just cruse over to the 911 thread and view the tin foil hat crowd that dont know a dam thing about
what happens during building fires.

There are LOTS of things your NOT ENTITLED to see or read in the governement every day. So what?!! Who cares
move on with life.




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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #521
537. We need the whole truth in order to make our decisions about
who to vote for. This is supposed to be a representative democracy. At this point, our representatives mostly represent big business and the military, not those of us who vote for them.

Yes, we do have the right to see everything. These photos have nothing to do with foreign policy secrets or even military secrets since the events they depict took place years ago, supposedly. We are not negotiating with foreign powers about these photos. Our troops are supposedly not torturing anyone, nor is the CIA or any other American permitted to torture anyone.

We need to release the photos and bring criminal charges against the torturers, and we need to do it now. The best way to safeguard our troops is to prosecute all torturers, whether in our government or in foreign countries. Torture cannot be tolerated. It must be prosecuted everywhere in the world where it occurs. We need to make that clear. How can we expect Pakistan or Afghanistan or the Sudan to prosecute torturers if we refuse to do it? Letting torturers know that they will be prosecuted if they torture is the only way that we can rid the world of torture.

Torture is the tool of dictators. Only dictators and thugs torture. So much for Bush and Cheney -- torturers, that's what they are.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
60. "You can't handle the truth"
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. because the Cheneys are controlling the message - if the photos
are released we will "embolden the terrorists" :-(
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
206. .........................
I can hear him saying that, I wish cheney would just go away.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:49 AM
Original message
Probably because they're disgusting beyond belief, and will serve to undo all the work he's
done to date.

Just a guess. I have no earthly idea if that's not it.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
41. Because government always lie, and always try to block information to their people. It's the same
old same old.

Governments also always have excuses ready about why they always lie and always attempt to block information.


That's the whole reason for the constitution, the bill of rights and rule of law. Because the founders knew that whether some future President was named Obama or bush or had a D or an R behind their name that governments always lie and always try to block information, eventually or from the get go.

I hope Obama fails to block these photos and I hope he fails big.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. I don't think that all governments lie. This position is not a "lie." It's an
unwillingness, for whatever (national security, the "disgust" factor, you name it) reasons, to share details of a truth that we all already know.

I'm guessing the request to attempt a block came from DOD, though I don't know that for a fact.

We'll have to see what happens, I guess.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
103. Regardless of whether the request originated with Obama or with the DOD
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
214. I don't think he's trying to shirk responsibility. If he were, we'd know for sure
who was the person who put forth the argument that the President signed off on, and that person would be getting all the finger pointing.
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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
106. Not good enough
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #106
209. What's not good enough? nt
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
343. Lying by omission
Is still lying!!!!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #343
503. No one's "lying."
Not providing picture attachments to a completed investigation isn't lying.
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Old Codger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
357. Depends on
How you define lie,if he is not lying At this time then he was lying during the campaign when he said he would be open and transparent,of course we all know that no one is expected to keep "campaign" promises don't we? This is not the first reversal and I doubt it will be the last. What it really comes down to is "politics as usual" different names same old shit.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
414. Please see response 383 near the bottom. nm
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GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
465. Too bad they didn't count on the Australians...
They published some of the photos in the Sydney Morning Hearald. You can see them here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/photos-us-doesnt-want-...

Click on the "Related links...Photos: More snaps from Abu Ghraib" under the photo. I could only stomach about the first five. I can understand why President Obama didn't want them released. They are enough to infuriate everyone except the rethuglican haters, who probably get off on this kind of thing. I can only imagine how some of the Muslim extremists feel...

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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #465
492. So some of them are out there anyway?
Than this would seem to be more of a domestic ban then. Unless somehow they think their being published in Australia won't spread to other parts of the world? That just seems silly.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. I hope Obama fails to block these photos and I hope he fails big.
Perhaps he means to.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
119. He's beginning to turn into "Bush-Lite"
No prosecution of the CIA terrorists now this.

the guys who shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums(until they screamed) are dancing for joy
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #119
344. "Bush-Lite" indeed
It's pretty sickening to watch this unfold like this.

"No prosecution of the CIA terrorists now this.

the guys who shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums(until they screamed) are dancing for joy"

Seymour Hersh talked about this on Charlie Rose a few years back
he had heard the tapes and seemed completely shaken and disgusted
by it all.

I'm sure there are Americans that believe torturing Children
in a vain and futile attempt to get the mythical
"actionable intelligence" is a necessary evil.

There must be because that's what Americans did to these kids.

It makes my blood boil....





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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #119
440. Are you catholic?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
195. The courts have stood up for more than a year to get them released . . !!!
Let's hope they continue to stand up for truth and justice ---

Cause, if this stuff doesn't swiftly bring justice, I don't know what could!!!

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
349. "Perhaps he means to"
That very well could be. He's pretty slick, thankfully.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #349
497. This is not being slick, it is being stupid.
Obama has lost a great deal of my confidence as a result of this - if it is indeed his decision.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #497
539. I'm not so easily swayed
I'm basing my opinions on what I've seen from him, not from what I want. I don't have all the details, he does. I'm not privy to information that would allow me to understand what the options for him are, nor do you. I prefer to give him a little time, let the story unfold, and have a little faith that he can turn this one around too.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
365. I think he will be unsuccessful, or if he succeeds, will destroy his Political capital
The Political Capital that was allocated to him by the Corporations and the Invisible Hand that really runs the Government and the Economy.

This is just more of the same in the vein of Fisa, Withdrawl, Bank Bailouts, DLC allegiance, etc.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
438. Could care less.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
86. I believe that the two issues are separate;
And the President does not want them to be lumped together. Prisoner abuse could be lumped together with torture, however in this case he may want to prove that torture was systematic and pervasive from bush to the cia bastards that did the beatings. Prisoner abuse may seem just as it's depicted; seemingly random acts by republicans who have multiple issues.

Just saying!
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #86
377. The real issue is that the Torturers were Corporate Contractors in many cases.
This fact seems to be lost on many people, and this fact is documented quite cleary in the film, "Iraq For Sale: The War Profiteers".

The films interviews many people that were involved and it paints a pretty clear picture that Contractors had a large role in the abuse of prisoners. So one may think that Civilian contractors would be innappropriate in the extraction of sensitive intelligence, but that is exactly what was done. The Contractors also were highly profit motivated, and were not subject to the UCMJ. They basically had free reign to arbitrarily choose victims for their abuse and torture.

There is one interview in the film of an Iraqi that was "Processed" in Abu Ghraib. He relates that he was stripped naked and then several Soldiers urinated on him simultaneously. He was very calm and composed as he related his thoughts of "What's the reason for doing this?"

After watching the film, one gets the impression that the intent was to hide behind the skirts of Corporate law, as written in the 1700's that states that Corporations are extensions of the monarchy and cannot commit any crimes. This plank of Corporatism basically stands intact today, because it shields corporations from their responsibilities to respect basic rights of humanity.

One can see this behavior in predatory business practices in the civilian sector as well, such as the incredibly harmful Tobacco industry, where they can continue to kill people with cigarettes, and then blame the the physical addiction to nictonine as the result of an Americans "Freedom to Choose". It's all Bullshit.

The Corporation are so big that even if we wnated reform, the big corporations can blackmail the country in many ways, from triggering recessions, shortages, inflation, deflation, unemployment, healthcare, transport, etc. They can shut this Government down in a heartbeat if they so desired. I think this is what we are seeing these days. The Corporations are basically calling the shots, and Government is between a rock and a hard place trying to cope the best it can without collapsing.

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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #377
507. And who do these contractors work for & take their orders from?
The buck does not stop with them, it follows up the chain as in anything.

Who is Obama protecting, and why?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
99. The rest of the world probably knows more about this than we do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #99
197. Absolutely . . . my sister's in Europe and she had seen torture photos before we did ....
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #99
220. The people who know are the people who have seen the images. NT
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diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #99
369. Absolutely. This move is to shield the truth from Americans! n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
147. That's my guess too. n/t
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
324. That's got to be it. Seriously. I think he wants justice but it would destroy
any chance of our nation returning to any dignity and integrity in the eyes of the world.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #324
346. What???
And how does hiding the truth return our integrity and dignity???

If Obama hides the truth then he will show that this country has little integrity and less dignity.
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #346
371. I hear and understand your point. I really do.
I just think that this is SO BAD - so much worse than we may want to know really, that we should use the pics in court to get these guys locked up but that if we put all those ugly visuals out there we are screwed as a nation. Maybe some. Maybe enough to get the tide of public sentiment to the point of realizing that what they did was obviously unnecessary but this could stain our country's reputation forever and whatever Obama does to try to heal the wounds between us and the rest of the world will be for nothing. I want the truth out and I want these guys to pay, I really do. But I think that there are plenty of individuals and countries out there who are leaning towards never forgiving us (whether consciously or not) and actively hating us that this could actually put us in a very unsafe situation.

Visuals have a hard core impact. I totally disagree with what they did but I think it would be easy for some to think of us as "the good Germans" no matter how bitterly we disagreed with what they were doing. We will always be thought of as in the same league as Nazi Germany and worse.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #371
385. If thats the result, then WE MUST RELEASE the images.
The American people must see what was done in their name if they are ever to wake up for this alternate reality that is painted by the Mass Media, Government mouthpieces and paid corporate schills.

There are a great many of us who were kept in the dark, and we did not hide behind the skirts of a few bad apples such as Cheney and Rumsfeld. In fact, we were kept out of the loop entirely until people witnessing these atrocities could stand it no more.

Hiding ones head in the sand will not change the fact that these atrocities did occur. It's kind of like Income Tax. If you demand to see the law that requires an individual wage earner to fill out a 1040 Form, the IRS will refuse to produce one that unequivocally mandates this act. Filling out a 1040 for personal wages is Voluntary, not mandatory, but the IRS will coerce people with harrassment, confiscation of property, and abuse of the legal system to apply pressure.

Remember that the Torture memos were secret until just recently, and were never formally discussed with Congress or the American people. Neither was Fisa. Now that these memos prove that Tortue was initiated by the executive branch, it has to be revealed wherever it takes us, not matter how distateful that may be.

It's kind of like buying a beautiful house, and then one day you are planting roses and you dig up a bone that has a ring on it... Do you just ignore it or deal with the devastating reality that something awful has just been discovered.



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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #385
406. I'm not saying hide your head in the sand at all. We have to acknowledge
what happened completely. We need to prosecute and convict. BUT we don't need to add more negative images to the world's perception of us. Visuals will make things worse beyond a certain point. Release enough to get public sentiment in the right place to convict but some things are better left to the imagination. Some things can't ever be removed from the memory banks and those of us who didn't know and weren't responsible for their actions could pay a heavy price.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #346
508. Thank you
for that comment.

These crazy excuses are mind boggling.
I bet if any Repuke --or the previous pResident-- did these things they'd say the same things. :eyes:
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
401. Well, that's certainly the message he's sending -- which is counterproductive
1. We've already seen enough photos to engender lots of anti-American sentiments.

2. Obama refuses to release other photos saying they will make things worse.

Ergo: The photos we're not seeing must be worse.

If I were someone inclined to have anti-American feelings, this is what I would conclude. So, I don't really need to see the photos to make me angrier.

Imagine that someone has shown you photos of your spouse or significant other having oral, anal and vaginal sex with your neighbors and a close relative in a orgy at your church. Then, they tell you they have other pictures, but they're not going to show them to you, because they're afraid they would piss you off. What are you going to think? Right.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #401
502. If you were someone inclined to have anti-American feelings, being able to put
faces and names to abuse would make a bad situation worse.

You are perhaps not as familiar with the culture of martyrdom that is prevalent in the conflict region. I'm very familiar with it, and for this reason I agree with the decision of Obama.

We know what happened. These investigations are completed ones, and they make it plain what happened. I can do without illustrations, thanks, anyway.

Your example is not a good one. These are pictures of people who are alive, who have names and faces and lives that they've returned to, many of them. How is dragging their humiliation at the hands of brutes to the fore helpful to them, particularly in that culture? They've been compensated and moved on. You want to revisit this and make them an object of political martyrdom or curiosity at best, and ridicule (yes--in that culture, it's often YOUR FAULT if "the authorities" punish you, even wrongly) at worst.

Releasing the pictures don't change the results of these investigations. The investigations are completed already.

Releasing the pictures doesn't "prove" that BushCo approved this sort of stuff, because BushCo punished the people who did this stuff--this stuff was "over the line" for them. These are completed BUSH investigations.

It's voyeuristic, the desire to see these things. It doesn't move the ball down the field in any way at all.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #401
549. They're not, worse, apparently.
Someone at the senior levels of the Pentagon say they are of the same level of offense as the Abu Ghraib pictures that we've seen already. That's not to suggest that it's "no big deal" but it's nothing we haven't seen already.

I do think a picture is worth a thousand words. There's already a spring offensive going on in both theaters of war.

Revisiting this situation with imagery will only make a bad spring offensive worse. I can understand why he's rethought this issue.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
491. Yeah, that's why he was talking about the "few low level" people
who responsible for this and how they have been punished (clip was on Countdown tonight). I don't like Lynndie England, but I really don't she should take the entire rap for this.

Continuing to cover it up is way more apt to undo any good he's done rehabilitating the U.S. image and just show the world that the more things change the more they stay the same.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
534. Too bad, release them, or hire a special prosecutor.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #534
546. To prosecute .... WHAT?
Perhaps you are unclear as to the origin of these pictures. They are from completed investigations, not ongoing ones.

There's nothing left to investigate with regard to these pictures. The people who abused those in the photos have had their day in court already. These are simply attachments to completed investigations--not ongoing ones.

And who prosecuted these individuals? The Bush administration. Years ago.

If you want to go after the Bush administration, these horrible pictures (which the Pentagon says are similar in tone, view and attitude to the ghastly Abu Ghraib photos) will not help the situation.

It's the Bush administration who meted out punishment to the people who did this stuff already.

To "get" the Bush people, you have to go after the people who crafted the guidance that allowed "enhanced interrogation" AKA torture (that the guards in the pictures exceeded), not wave around pictures of victims who have (or their families have) been compensated and likely do not want to be revictimized, or guards who have already been punished.

I do think we need to go after the people who wrote the guidelines that went over the torture line, but rehashing completed investigations isn't the way to accomplish that.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #546
561. Non e of those who directed this has been held accountable.
If you think this was all perpetrated by a bunch of NCO's , you are blind and stupid."Completed investigations"???? Obviously not.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #561
562.  You're completely unclear as to what the ACLU is asking for.
The ACLU request doesn't have anything to do with holding higher ups accountable. Further, I don't "think this was all perpetrated by a bunch of NCOs" and if you read my comments on this matter fully, along with the link I provided on this thread, without the urge to "post and not read" you'd realize that.

The ACLU's request is extremely limited. In this filing, they only want the pictures that were attached to specific COMPLETED (yes, your snark aside, "completed") investigations where the perpetrators have already been punished with punishments ranging from reduction in rank to imprisonment and fines. The ruling that the ACLU got from the courts only addressed those COMPLETED investigations at specified sites other than Abu Ghraib. Why don't you go read what the courts granted them? Then you'll have an idea what Obama stiff-armed them on, and you wouldn't have to be all snarky and faux-superior to me for reasons I can't fathom.

While you're getting angry and pissy at me about these photographs, you're ignoring the documents (like the Senate report that I provided a link to--all two hundred and some odd pages) that provide a very clear and unambiguous blueprint for a prosecutorial effort. These photos don't do that--the photos only illustrate behaviors that the Bush administration themselves found "unacceptable" and punished. That's hardly a basis for a prosecution. Without the people up the chain, you got nuttin'--and the four hundred some-odd NCOs were unable or unwilling, for whatever reasons, to point the finger at anyone before they were marched off to jail. There's a link missing--the NCOs can't or won't provide it. For that reason, one has to go UP the chain and see if there's a crack in the armor there. The Senate report is helpful in that regard.

But hey--be dismissive and uninformed--or, as you so charmingly call it, "blind and stupid." It's the New DU paradigm, I guess.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. It would endanger US troops
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Aren't they already in danger?
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. They would be in a lot more danger
if enemy troops see what we did to their troops. They would be more incensed to kill our troops if the pictures come out now while we are in country. When the troops come home from Iraq and Afganland it would be more appropriate to release them for publication.

As much as i would like to see them to further lambaste the Bush junta, the reality is it would result in more U.S. tortured and killed.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. There are plenty of photos of abuses already out there
They shouldn't of tortured in the first place if they are worried about it. Cheney is going around on a media tour saying there is nothing wrong with torture so I don't see the point. Sorry. I'm not much of a fan of government secrecy myself.
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. "their troops"?
The terrorists are not 'troops'. Troops wear a uniform and fight for a sovereign nation. If they were troops, they would be POW's. Some of them are enemy combatants while others were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. Oh bullshit!
WHATEVER they wear or don't wear, calling them "enemy combatants" justifies us treating them as less than human, including torture, and a complete stripping of their civil rights.

Obama doesn't want to release them because he doesn't want to prosecute the Bush torturers. If those photos came out, there would be one helluva outcry for the prosecution of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Rice, AND a few of the high-echelon military who instituted these torture programs.

The problem is, they think they've got it all under control right now, and they don't. These photos WILL be leaked.

And then they're going to look just as bad as the torturers, themselves, for trying to protect such barbarous acts.
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. Not bullshit, but law...
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:02 PM by kirby
First off, nowhere in my post did I support or condone torture. I think it is not only despicable, but does not work. I also stated that I think there are more than just 'enemy combatants' at Gitmo. There are people picked up during raids (or turned in for rewards) and are stuck in a legal state of limbo because the bureaucracy does not care.

Second, there is a distinction within the law (also referred to by the Supreme Court in 1942), between POW and enemy combatants/unlawful combatants. This class of person is still not allowed to be tortured. They must face military tribunals rather than a civil trial per the law.

As far as whether Obama should release the photos, I think he should. He should demonstrate how Bush behaved and demonstrate how his administration is different.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #88
228. Because bullshit and law are mutually exclusive...
:sarcasm:
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
176. Thank you! Excellent post. nt
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
194. Funny--Washington's Army didn't have a uniform, and they
weren't fighting for a sovereign nation.

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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #194
233. ?
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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #62
378. whatever they are called doesn't change what WE did
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
117. That something is your opinion does not make it "the reality." It is your
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:19 PM by No Elephants
belief, that's all. And not a belief with which I agree.

Those in the Middle East have probably heard stories that are even worse than any of the photos--and fully believe all they've heard.
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
124. they're not torturing enemy troops
they're torturing enemy "combatants"
and innocent people.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
199. Laughable.
The anti-secret secret! :think:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
201. This is the "appropriate time" for truth -- NOW. Further, we had no trials and have no idea. . .
if anyone of the 140,000 or more people who got dragged in -- sometimes sold to us

by bounty hunters -- were guilty of anything more of being in the wrong place at the

wrong time.

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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
241. My question is, can't enemy troops read?
You said:

"They would be in a lot more danger if enemy troops see what we did to their troops."

Which would be one thing if it were a comment buried in the responses at DU. But the thing is I know the same comment is going to be stated all over the mainstream media, including media sources available to enemy insurgents. So why would they be less pissed off hearing that "what was done to them is too disgusting to see" than actually seeing it? I would follow that logic if it was stated behind closed doors, but the fact is it won't be. So what is there to hide?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
395. What enemy troops? I don't see any uniforms on the insurgents
The only uniforms I see are those fitted on the Iraqi puppet government forces. This argument is such chicken hawk bullshit that it makes me sick. The troops know they are in harms way. I million Iraqi people dead and wounded are proof of that. The Soldiers signed up on their own accord, and if they disagree with what they are doing, they can ask to be discharged or become conscientious objectors. If they fell strongly enough about it, that what diffenece is it whether you are in harms way, ready to be killed at a moments notice, or are in a holding cell waiting for a court martial?

Watada did and succeeded btw, and I applaud him for his courage to do what was right for him. More people need to think about the ramification of their choices, and when they realize that they've been cheated, such as 5 consecutive tours overseas into a combat zone, while the criminals get off scott free and live out their retirement in impunity, then maybe only then will they see how naive they were.

The stage has already been created via stop loss, Blackwater and Contractor profiterring at the expense of Soldiers, and the destruction of the rules of the Geneva Convention which started this whole thing in the first place.

As a Veteran of the Cold War, I cannot imagine how anyone with any brain could actually go along with the Iraq War. It was such an obvious lie from the start that I'm amazed that the propaganda machine was able to coddle it into reality so quickly.

The whole system is dependant on the Cooperation of the people, and people are realizing that the methods used by Government to obtain their cooperation is a fraud. If the entire Military said, I'm taking a day off, the world would not come to an end. In fact, it would tell the Government that they have lost control and the people have woken up to the futility of war.


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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #395
436. .
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
462. That's the biggest lie ever.
Do you really think that insurgents would say, "The US doesn't torture us, so we won't torture them?" Biggest load of bunk ever.

And how can they be more 'incensed' to kill our troops when they already do want to kill them?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
466. How do you know "They would be in a lot more danger"? They are at war and fighting
day by day. How does revealing the truth change that.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #44
538. The stories are already out there. The pictures almost trivialize this.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Why increase the danger if it is not necessary?
:shrug:
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. That's just a theory
The enemy already knows about abuses, we already have pictures of abuses and murder of detainees out there.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. One that apparently the President subscribes to, upon consultation with his top military commanders
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. I guess we'll have to disagree
They already have a target on their backs. We did when I was in Iraq so I don't see any radical change. :hi:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
131. They don't have crystal ball and are not infallible. OF COURSE, Bushco leftovers are going to
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:21 PM by No Elephants
say anything they think will cause Obama to keep the photos under wraps. That does not mean they are right.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
185. Many of his "TOP COMMANDERS" are War Criminals
Who the fuck killed this Guy




Ya crickets
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #185
399. They don't want to release the image where this woman is rubbing her tits in his face.
Or maybe squatting over him and urinating on his corpse in full view of the other prisoners.

Yeah, I could see why they would not want to release those photos, but I think they should regardless, because it shows what a bunch of fucked up psychopaths Americans can be when they put their minds to it.

Sure, it would destroy the carefully crafted Hollywood imagery of the Chivalrous Americans save the day, probably cost Billions of dollars in revenue!

Sure, it would forced millions of dollars into renewed reaearch into the causes of this sort of neuroses in individuals. It would be worth it, because if these people exist, where they are able to do such atrocities under orders from their authority, then we have a big problem when they are released back into society and raise generations of similar psychopaths that we we have to interact with.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
152. Not of rape,
an especially egregious crime to the sensibilities of a Muslim populace (as it should be). The outrage would result in an increase in the deaths of U.S. military personnel.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #152
170. Their are already thousands dead and maimed
Abu Grahrib had whatever you could ask for, murder, humilitian, torture, etc. It was the same then as it is now. As long as they are over there there will be attempts to kill them. However it is our media shielded us from things, over there you have the realities of war shown to them so there is already anger.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #152
225. They know it happened in reality, yet have no desire to take violent action. However, if they see
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:28 PM by No Elephants
a photo of what they already know, they will become violent. Is that the theory?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
127. You're assuming that releasing the photos will increase the danger. It ain;t
necessarily so. The photos may be less bad than people will imagine if we insist on keeping them secret.

People know we've tortured. They know the photos exist. Now they know we don't want to release them. And they've already seen a good number of photos. And heaven knows, they've heard stories from detainees we released. What conclusions do you think they'll draw about photos we're desperate to hide?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #127
208. Child sodomy child pornography
Children anally raped in front of their fathers to get them to talk--- that's what
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. We don't know if that is true
I hear MSNBC telling me the photos are similar to Abu Gharib. Sure we can believe a source from somewhere but have they seen the pictures?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #219
231. Its in the Taguba Report.
CIA operatives shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums to get their fathers to talk.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #231
242. It's already done and the information is already out there. The photos of it, if they exist, are
not going to make the difference between a violent and a nonviolent response to the data. Our attempts to shield and our insistence on not prosecuting, as we are legally obligated to do, however, might well do that.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #219
525. Use your fucking BRAIN - the PROOF has already been out there for YEARS now...!!!
But go ahead - keep your fucking head up your ass or in the sand...!!!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #208
237. I can only refer you to Reply 225 and ask you to read Reply 127 again.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
203. Why have ILLEGALLY invaded Iraq when it was not necessary?
Didn't that "endanger our troops" . . . ??
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
274. It is necessary.
These were crimes committed under our flag and in our names.

Maybe Germany should have just plowed under the concentration camps and built farms on them?

Genocide and torture are two different crimes in their scope and severity, but both were perpetrated by a government and it's military and both against international law.

The difference is that Germany and it's people faced up to their crimes, and have begun to reclaim their humanity.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
392. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
455. Silly question, the Iraqis and the rest of the World
knows more about the war crimes, torture eg, committed by the Bush administration than the American people and the danger to the troops as a result of those crimes, has been ongoing and will not increase any more, according to some soldiers I know, as a result of a few more pictures. THEY LIVE with the victims, the women who were raped, the children who were tortured, the families of those who were tortured to death.

This is news apparently, only to the American people. Sy Hersch, John Pilger and other independent journalists wrote about these horrors years ago, and they got their information many times, from Iraqis themselves. Which, btw, was called BS until the Abu Ghraib photos emerged.

Otoh, the danger to the troops is likely to decrease if Obama makes sure that the guilty parties, Cheney et al, are held accountable for the injustices they inflicted on the Iraqi people. That will help more than anything.

The US sadly, is still arguing against the reality of the situation. The danger to the troops resulted from the crimes not the photos. When those crimes are addressed and the victims get some justice, that danger will decrease. That is what the world was waiting for when Obama was elected. It looks like the troops will have to continue to bear the burden of the crimes of their government. It's pretty simple, crimes were committed and they are being covered up, still.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Pull them out. That would make them safe. Or is that asking too much?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Yes, that is asking too much
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. Can you elaborate on your support of U.S. militarism? n/t
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #63
75. We need to stop the Taliban from retaking Afghanistan, and our withdrawl from Iraq needs to be
responsible and phased.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. So troops saftey isn't really that important. It's subordinated by our thirst for oil?
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:56 PM by John Q. Citizen
Except and until it comes to the free flow of information.

Then at that point troops safety is paramount?

Sorry, I ain't buying the crap you will.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. Afganistan is not a major source of oil
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
113. But it's right on the planned pipeline route from the Caspian Basin to the Indian Ocean
You do know what Karsai 's job was before we made him our puppet in Afghanistan, right?
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #93
153. and as wrong as we were to into Iraq, the mess needs to be cleaned up responsibly now.
Big emphasis on the word "responsibly".
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
84. How long is that going to take and at what cost?
'Responsible and phased' just means less troops coming home and more troops going back.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. no its not. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
205. It's asking too much of those who profit from war -- and Patriot Act . . . etal . . .
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
57. In which country? Do they have any business there? At home, they'll be safe.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Apperently the President believes that there is still work to do in Iraq and Afganistan
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:49 PM
Original message
More likely that he's been either cajoled or threatened into keeping the troops there
to do exactly what?

Every foreign intervention in my lifetime (with the possible exception of the Korean War) has caused more problems than it has solved.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
80. Stop the Taliban from retaking Afghanistan and further destabilizing the region
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:01 PM by Freddie Stubbs
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. Oh, wait, they're already retaking Afghanistan
not to mention the fact that they grew out of the Mujaheddin fighters that Reagan mischaracterized as "freedom fighters," when they were actually Islamic fanatics who didn't know the difference between Communism and consumerism but who sure as hell didn't want their daughters going around with bare faces.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Would immediately withdrawing US troops hinder the Taliban retaking Afghanistan more than staying
there and fighting them?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #94
249. The Taliban are winning because the U.S. took money it could have spent
providing an economic base for Afghanistan and blew it in Iraq. Hence the incentives to restart the heroin trade, which finances the Taliban. (It would be much cheaper just to buy the poppy crop, sell it to drug companies, and destroy the rest.)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
211. STOP the Taliban from producing more heroin . . . oops . . .
America seems to love to sell drugs --

When Taliban was in control, production was being reduced --

When we took over, production has reached news peaks!

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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #80
407. Perhaps you should change your Icon to that of the Norwegian Blue parrot Freddie
Are you cutting and pasting your one liner talking points from some other window open on your desktop?

You are nothing more than a parrot making no sense, stringing along a series is jingoistic points in order to apologize for this decision by the Government.

Refusing the release of the images is a blatant indication of the weakness America has, and hiding behind the troops yet again is another political ploy that you seem to embrace. It's disrespectful for the tropps, especially since the truth WILL come out eventually, and then it is likely that the Troops won't be able to deal with it rationally and create serious blowback.

The fact is that this cancer in our so called Democracy needs to be cut out, or it will grow into something that destroys our country.

You want to put makeup over the festering wound so nobody notices the damage.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #407
463. I wonder what the blue dog means for freddie. nm
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
461. Right wing propaganda. Is this Sean Hannity? nm
Edited on Wed May-13-09 06:43 PM by rhett o rick
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #461
496. DLC....n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #80
494. Modern domino theory.
As in Indochina, the force likeliest to push over the dominoes are the US aims and policies of war: as ever ill-informed, destabilizing, arrogant, duplicitous -- their variety of material interests cloaked in pious missionary ideologies -- profit-seeking, chaotic, murderous, imperialist, insane and ultimately self-destructive.

Too bad the realization of the last comes only after millions die, with twenty or one hundred brown foreign people killed for every precious US soldier. (Not counting the belated casualties of war injuries, PSTD, freak-outs and whatever poisons will inevitably come to be associated with this war.)

Do the reflexive geostrategists of unreal "realpolitik" and might-surely-makes-right never tire of being wrong, decade after decade? Of course not, because that's their job. So they seek out the next threat and the bloody merry-go-round starts again, and always there are those who will step up to help the inspiring new leader as he discovers new and better, more humane reasons to go to war.

Brzezinski was among the professors at Obama's department as an undergrad at Columbia. Figures.

But what's your excuse for identifying with the war machine rather than its victims, Freddie Stubbs?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
207. obama is locked into corporate-welfare . . . look at the $12 TRILLION in bailouts . . .
while he has insulted us by suggesting that we can afford corporate-welfare but

not Single Payer Health Care -- !!!???

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
295. yes, there's still soooo much $$$$$ to be made!
and so many annoying people in the way, all of whom need to be murdered so we can grab what we want.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
429. Certainly the Iraq occupation remains as illegal as it was on Day 1.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:38 PM by JackRiddler
And your authoritarian bullshit cuts no ice. If the president's for war, he can kiss my ass.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
74. B.S. It would air "the truth" and make sure that this does NOT happen AGAIN.
If we don't flush out the truth and seek accountablity, this WILL happen again. :(
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #74
217. True . . . from the beginning this is true . . . from JFK coup, to MLK, RFK . . .
on and on -- Iran Contra, October Surprise, Savings & Loan Thefts & Embezzlements ---

Watergate and failing to hold Nixon responsible -- Ford Pardon was not only wrong,

it was wrong for the future of America.

Look at all the Iran-Contra criminals who came bounding back into government with W!!!

This has all permitted fascism -- and corporate-fascism -- to invade America . . .

slowly -- from the time of Operation Paperclip --

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
259. And even if it doesn't, the world will NEVER forgive us.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #74
423. Conservative cowards like him aren't interested in the truth.
NT!

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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
77. You're absolutely right. I want the truth out there as much as anybody
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:50 PM by The Hope Mobile
and I think they should be used as evidence in court but this really would have the impact of making the world's hatred of the US skyrocket. Sodomizing children, which we already know about, is unconscionable in any culture. Imagine the things we don't know about yet. I think Obama is thinking of the impact on our troops and he's right about this. Some of this really needs to be handled delicately. What matters is that these guys pay for their crimes. Maybe they could leak it to FOX and Limbaugh types, who would never put it on the air but they might just STFU?!? That would certainly be a pleasant/positive response to such heinous behavior.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #77
273. If I simply know for ccertain that you sodomized children, I can be calm. But, show me the picture
and that is going to make all the difference. I live with the fact that you did it without acting out, but seeing the photo will make me kill you. Is that what some people are this thread are saying? If so, I don't believe it for five seconds.
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #273
308. No, they have tapes of children being sodomized. This was posted
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:24 PM by The Hope Mobile
here on DU yesterday. (Not the tapes). What I am saying is that if we know that they did that, my guess is that was just scratching the surface and that things were much uglier than that and I don't think that means that the average person will kill Americans as a result of that knowledge . . . but some people who aren't as stable will be pushed over the edge by the visuals.
Visuals always have a more profound impact. They are very capable (and have a history) of changing public sentiment toward or against. Bush used pictures of 9/11 to get the people to unite behind them. That's why Gore uses slides in his presentation. Anti-abortionists use pictures of fetuses after a D & C. Screaming, bleeding, running asian children, black hoods, white hoods, lynchings and burning crosses, the depression era woman with her children, all of these were/are used to make an emotional connection with the people involved.
I don't think its just about "killing Americans" as a direct/immediate result but I think that its an ugly seed in the back of the heads of people who are already livid with what the BFEE has done for the last 8 years. My concern is that seeing things profoundly worse than sodomizing children puts us in such a horrific light as a country . . . one that those who are looking for justification or who just have poor control over their emotions or limited intellect (like most of the GOP) will use as their last straw and/or will perceive as representative of Americans in general and that the perceptions of the US will be irreversibly damaged like when people started seeing what was really happening in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.
It took Germany decades to start recovering from those perceptions. Even if we were totally against it we will be perceived as the "Good Germans". My husband has family of German descent and they were devastated when this all came out.
Why doesn't most of the world like us already? This will put a permanent negative image in the back of their minds and draw a much closer connection between Americans and "evil". That connection will have the backlash of revenge by people who were already leaning in that direction. Not you or me.
You don't have to "buy" it but it wouldn't hurt you to consider that there are people in the world who are very capable of using this as an excuse.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
87. Then so be it
Patrick Henry and the founders were willing to say "Give me Liberty or give me death!" They had ideals they were willing to die for.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
115. No. Torturing endangers US troops. We've done it for years and the whole world
already knows about it--probably more than we know about it.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
120. Wow, even a computer could never be programmed to be as consistent.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
125. Then hold the torturers accountable for endangering the troops.
Next question.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
200. Actually, it would FREE our American troops to use conscience/common sense . . .
their sense of justice -- and that's no good for a military that needs to teach

hatred for the enemy -- !!!


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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #200
412. It is clear the Conscience or Common sense are frowned upon in today's military.
Just take a look at the huge increases in convicted felons being admitted into the military. Just look at the epidemic of Suicides in today's military, and you can see that something is terribly wrong.

There is a great repression of the most common functions of life in the Military, and the increasing prosletyzing by the Religious insurgents trying to manipulate the troops into focusing their conflict is not working.

I was a Soldier once, and I am always proud of remembering what a cohesive team of people working together can do when driven by a just and honorable goal. However, when that goal becomes contradictive, such as torturing random iraqi's, or gunning down whole neighborhoods on orders from some distant commander, something breaks down. It just becomes a mechanical job, a grinding, unpleasant job, with no real outlets for the unpleasantness experienced day in and day out.

Todays military depends on conforming, repressed followers. Independant free thinkers are not allowed, because they'd walk off the job like Watada.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #412
456. Thanks -- fantastic post . . .
I was a Soldier once, and I am always proud of remembering what a cohesive team of people working together can do when driven by a just and honorable goal. However, when that goal becomes contradictive, such as torturing random iraqi's, or gunning down whole neighborhoods on orders from some distant commander, something breaks down. It just becomes a mechanical job, a grinding, unpleasant job, with no real outlets for the unpleasantness experienced day in and day out.

Todays military depends on conforming, repressed followers. Independant free thinkers are not allowed, because they'd walk off the job like Watada.



:)
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #412
498. Or get shot 4 times in the FOREHEAD by their own side...like Pat Tillman. n/t
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
224. Well, That Sounds Familiar (nt)
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
382. Wrong. That is a bullshit reason. We already did the shit, our troops are already in danger.
The enemy knows what we did, the only people that don't are the gullible American public.

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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #382
400. But it will be the Iraqi and Afghan and Pakistan civilians" that will pay the price of increased vio
It's a safe bet more civilians will be in the wrong place when the 'freedom fighters'< strike in the open air market,bus stops,employment lines, funeral/wedding processions, etc.[br />People at Iraqi body count" are keeping score.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #400
404. If telling the truth puts people in danger, so be it. To hid the truth on the pretense it makes
people safer is bullshit. It is what fascists say. "you can't handle the truth". It may cost, but there is no other way.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
402. How so?
We've already seen enough pictures to piss off the pope. So, is Obama saying that the unreleased pictures are worse? Yeah -- that's going to help.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
445. Not prosecuting the torturers and the ones who gave the orders is what will endanger our troops...
The whole world KNOWS we did it.

The cabal must be tried for war crimes
so that the world will see that we DO NOT
condone these "activities".

Refusing to reveal the evidence does
NOT make it any safer for our troops.

That is LUDICROUS.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #445
460. EXACTLY. nm
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
510. Which is why torture should NOT have happened in the first place.
* & Cheney knew that what they authorized would endanger the troops but they green lighted it anyway because they are sociopaths.

The damage has already been done.

US troops are already endangered.



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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
524. BULLSHIT! The TORTURE ALREADY 'endangered" the troops!!!
The PHOTOS did NOTHING - they are just "THERE"!!!

If the "troops" and every fucking person so fucking "concerned" now with those "troopts" were SOOOO "CONCERNED" - THEY SHOULD HAVE NOT RESORTED TO TORTURE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

IT'S THE FUCKING TORTURE, NOT THE FUCKING PHOTOS, THAT HAVE ALREADY ENDANGERED OUR "TROOPS"...!!!
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Old Coot Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."
According to one official, "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30725189/
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
56. hasn't that already happened
with Abu Ghraib? Do you think the photos at Abu Ghraib made a great recruitment tool or the people in Iraq already knew what was going on? How stupid can you be to endorse torture, taking the lower ground? Some in the ME already stated that it was our use of torture that made them decide to go against the US. If we don't prosecute, will the US go down a slippery slope of further atrocities foregoing the rule of law? What keeps this country looking like any other third world Banana Republic? Hell, we were almost there. Fraudulent elections, controlled media, knuckle dragging hate-spewing mouthpieces, complete power of the executive branch (one party controlling the judicial, executive, and congressional, corporate power over the will of the people.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
156.  Invading and occupying Iraq and torturing put a bullseye on the backs of our forces. Photos are
merely pieces of paper.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
421. Are you even daring to suggest that not revealing the pictures will make the troops safer?
Think about it for a minute. Our troops are in danger because we allowed our government to do horrific things in our name. If you want to sweep it under the rug, you are as bad as the republiCons. Never again.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. My personal theory is that some of the photos show
Pelosi & Reid on a Gitmo field trip, using cattle prods on detainees.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #59
390. certainly plausible. shit, everything else is fucking bizarre enough today.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
101. Here's why he's doing it.
It's simple. Doing this will fan the flames of outrage against the past administration hugely. HUGELY. When pictures come out of children being sodomized in front of women, as is rumored, all hell is going to break loose.

So instead of concentrating on the running of our government and pulling our economy out of the crapper, our government is going to get wrapped up in a huge, huge, huge investigation.

He doesn't want to deal with scandal right now. He doesn't want to be the president that concentrated on criminal prosecution of things already done when there are things that need taking care of right now.

Personally, I say, "too bad". Prosecute.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
172. I think your explanation is correct.
But I, too, want there to be prosecution.

Obama wants to try to have everyone look forward, not backward. That's a lofty ideal.

But I'm not sure we can effectively GO forward without properly examining the last eight years. If anything, we need to learn from those atrocities and put permanent laws into effect that prohibit torture from ever happening again - regardless of WHO sits in the oval office.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #101
196. of children being sodomized
Little boys screaming in agony as their anuses and rectums are savaged by CIA beasts

"see the Taguba Report"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #196
221. By the way, where does the CIA get troops that would do such things . . .????
Are they finding natural Sadists or training them?
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #221
288. Yes. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #288
326. Frightening thoughts when you begin to think about it -- !!!
I'm convinced we've had sadists running government the last 8 years!!!

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #326
342. I try not to, it gives me night terrors.
There are things out there that are beyond rational thought and fall outside the confines of sanity.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #342
446. I understand, however . . .
Edited on Wed May-13-09 06:24 PM by defendandprotect
As I began to read about the Third Reich -- I, too, questioned it --
and people told me "if you could understand insanity, you would be insane."

However, there were answers . . .
Hitler was in large part - by his own admission -- imitating the Catholic Popes --
only he was going a step further in final annihilation.
Europeans had been saturated with anti-Jewish propaganda long before the Nazis
began its use.
After the forced release of Jews from the Vatican ghettoes -- where they were barred from
professions, employment -- and even barred from associating with the rest of society --
forced to wear yellow stars which Hitler also copied -- the Vatican began a 100 year
propaganda campaign against the Jews. The Vatican naturally had wide journalistic
capabilities - wide networks for disseminating information.

There are many other reasons -- but if one fails to seek truth and answers, one is
defeated before you even begin.


I'd recommend . . .
"The Rise of the Fourth Reich" by Jim Marrs
"The Beast Reawakened" by Martin A. Lee
"The Secret War Against the Jews" by Aarons . . .
this is kind of a misnomer because the book deals with so much else --
and
"Crusade" -- by James Carroll
Your library will have all of these books if you are interested.

:)


Howard Zinn also repeats this often -- which I try to blungeon myself with as often as
possible . . .

"Sentimentality without action is meaningless."

That's why I so much hope the material is released -- all of this can only serve to more
strongly wake up the American public and get them moving.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #446
505. one my many hobbies is reading history as well....
prepping the population and making them numb to torture or making it a "common" thing is what scares the living crap out of me.

Thanks for the recommendations, I will add them to my already gigantic list of things to read. :)

I'm in the process of reading Armageddon. It's a book on WWII. Deals with the battles and for the first time, each of the battles discussed has an after action like summation. interesting stuff.

but earlier this year I read, "Stalingrad", my god, what a truly epically horrifying siege and out right massacre of the Russian population. Not only were the Nazi's killing the Jews and basically all other ethnicities, handicapped peoples and people not of the christian religion in the concentration camps, this book points up the basic blighting of whole towns from the face of the earth when the Germans invaded Russia.

I go through "waves" history. I did a long study of the cold war for many years, mixed in some WWII. Then I moved on to just WWII. Now, I believe my next wave is beginning with the dark ages, more succinctly on the Crusades.

In the end, after reading so much of the horror humanity has cursed upon this earth, I can't help but come away with the feeling that we haven't learned much from our failings. It's just the techniques and procedures that have been updated, but the pain and misery remains the same.

Achilles once made an incredible remark when laying siege to Troy, "humans are wretched creatures".

Peace. :)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #505
512. "Man's Inhumanity To Man" . . .
Edited on Thu May-14-09 12:39 AM by defendandprotect
Weird that I rarely get into the book section here --

My one regret is that on my first trip to the library at age 6, the librarian showed me
only FICTION!

I do very much agree with this . . .

"prepping the population and making them numb to torture or making it a "common" thing is what scares the living crap out of me."

In fact, as I understand it, the main purpose of torture is to frighten and intimidate all of society.

Wars aren't a subject I'm interested in, mainly. Though I do recall reading a book a few years
ago on our massacre of Koreans. I will look for "Stalingrad" when I'm next in the library, tho
not exactly my usual reading.

I go through "waves" history. I did a long study of the cold war for many years, mixed in some WWII. Then I moved on to just WWII. Now, I believe my next wave is beginning with the dark ages, more succinctly on the Crusades.

They say that everything is a circle and it doesn't matter where you start. I found that to be
true in my reading . . . one book leads you to another.

In the end, after reading so much of the horror humanity has cursed upon this earth, I can't help but come away with the feeling that we haven't learned much from our failings. It's just the techniques and procedures that have been updated, but the pain and misery remains the same.

Certainly, I've had to conclude that there is something grossly wrong with our species.
Maybe we're hybrids? Maybe our pollution of the planet and our violence have done damage
to our minds? Certainly the patterns of violence repeat regularly.

I noticed in the stores recently that the PEACE symbol is back -- mainly in jewelry for women!

I think Father's Day should be rededicated as an anti-war day as Mother's Day was intended to be!

Maybe we'll chat again in the book section here sometime?
Meanwhile, if you come across any hot new non-fiction, let me know - !!




:)
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #221
333. And they have been given blanket immunity
to come coach Little Leauge teams across America.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #221
470. And are they going to release these sadists into the public? nm
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #221
522. Where you ask--- Look around
What did Lt "Rusty" Calley do?

crickets
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #196
464. America, Fuck Yeah!
The world's greatest beacon for Democracy.

The epitome of Christian morals.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #101
408. I hear you. And heh well rescuing the economy is no job for the DOJ
(wait, maybe it is) so I'd say prosecuting war crimes and dealing with the economy can be done in parallel.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
114. Because we don't wish to undermine Cheney's
credibility. Someone might get the idea that raping didn't produce actionable intelligence. We can't have 'wrong thinking'.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #114
222. Exactly . . . this would be the proof of how insane and sadistic Bush/Cheney regime has been . . .!!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #222
376. Insane and sadistic is right.
They are like some comic book Nazis, or something.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #376
439. You might have missed my post . . .
where I mention that the CIA funded right wing Senators/Reps . . .
two mentioned were Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerald Ford; the latter having
done considerable damage with his presence on the Warren Commission in keeping
the coup on JFK covered up.

The CIA saw no difference in taking money from the KKK or Nazis -- in fact, the
CIA was founded with ex-Nazis brought in by Allen Dulles under "Operation Paperclip."
Pat Buchanan and others - Jesse Helms -- were among those who received these funds!

So . . . yes, the Nazi movement was not snuffed out -- it simply moved on --
and Allen Dulles -- Chair of the Warren Commission -- and fired by JFK after the Bay
of Pigs fiasco -- originated that program and founded the CIA with these ex-Nazis and
also put many into the FBI.



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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #439
517. Fascists torture. nt
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #114
234. I THink That fucker's running in 2012
Don't doubt it. he's been all over t.v., for no earthly reason. Something is up. he'll announce 18 months from now. I want someone with a backbone.
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
454. Because now it's his responsibility to safeguard the troops n/t
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. I am watching MSNBC....
...WTF is up with that?

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. same as it ever was....
:grr:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. I wonder. Can he block the release or is this an innoculation against
the right wing talking point "you're putting the troops at risk"?
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Oh fuck that. What are we, fucking babies?!
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. After reading the Esquire article, Idiot America.....
...no, we're just idiots.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Lovin' all the "change!"
n/t
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
253. Me, too! "Yes We Can"...fall in love with slogans and act like Bush-lite!
YES WE CAN!
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
447. Don't give up your dam job...etc.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. How did they get to him?
is there dirt somewhere in his history that they could be using to coerce him?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
226. Well, either they're threatening his life OR . . . this is false loyalty to torturers . . .
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:26 PM by defendandprotect
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
245. He was always theirs.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:39 PM by bagrman
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
262. He's fallen into the trap of listening to the "grey beards" Gates and Petraeus
and others.

I heard this scenario predicted on the Bill Press show when Obama was first elected and now its coming true.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #262
372. Trap?
President Obama campaigned on listening to his Generals and weighing their advice.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #372
458. So, he also campaigned on transparency. nm
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #372
482. well, we know those generals are not his generals
most of the generals with a conscience, a sense of honor and plain common sense were let go because they didn't believe in what the * junta planned to do. Ya'll remember when we had the general purges--Shinseki was one. Let's see there's the general purges, the CIA purges. Now, ya'll don't really believe that these generals are his generals or most of these CIA agents are his?
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
368. Maybe a pod, placed under the bed?
Do we need any more proof of the poison that is Washington?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
420. Its called, you better not or we crash the world economy
Starve the masses, cause fuel supplies to dry up, layoff millions of workers in "Cost Cutting Measure" and generally shit on Obama's world.

I hope he calls their Bluff and lets them attempt it.

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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
448. NO! He's fucking doing what best for the country lame ass!
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montanacowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
11. Obama Admn says releasing photos
will put a big target on the back of our servicemen

HEY, OBAMA, ALL THE WORLD KNOWS ABOUT THE PHOTOS ALREADY

RIGHT TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNMENT AND CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN

I AM GETTING PRETTY SICK OF THIS SHIT
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
123. Didn't releasing the first bunch of
photos fuel the insurgency? I mean, wasn't that when it really took off with IEDs killing U.S. servicemen every single day?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #123
179. No. Our actual actions--invasion, occupation, torture-- fueled the insurgency.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:59 PM by No Elephants


The Abu Ghraib photos were a lot more of a shock to us than they were to the people of Iraq.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #123
426. You don't think the Iraqi's knew about it first hand?
Are you so stupid?

The photos only alerted the Americans what was going on in their name. It had nothing to do with the realities experienced by the unfortunate Iraqi'a that were swept up in this crime and subsequntly released to tell the story of their experiences to friends and family.

Use your atrophied brain and start thinking.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #426
519. Thank you for such kind words, Grinchie.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
227. NO -- photos don't do that -- ACTUALLY TORTURING PEOPLE DOES THAT . . .
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
292. so, emperor O, bring the troops home! problem solved! DUH!
oh, I forgot! those 30 pieces of silver are conditional on maintaining a constant state of mayhem, murder, TERROR, and warfare so all the bloodsuckers' bank accounts will stay fat and full of taxpayer dollars.

fuck you and your "change" BULLSHIT. And you can take your "constitutional scholar" CRAP and shove that too.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
450. What worse...hearing about your sister getting her ass kicked or a picture of it?
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
12. Reuters Breaking: OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/WBT011235.htm


OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS, FEARS WOULD P
13 May 2009 16:49:25 GMT
Source: Reuters
OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS, FEARS WOULD PUT U.S. FORCES AT RISK--US OFFICIAL
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Dear POTUS:
The world already knows. Doing something about it is what will make our soldiers safer. Hiding it? The opposite effect.

JMHO
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. US OFFICIAL, very authoritative source.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm Beginning To Think "Change" Is Just A Word That Got TOO MUCH
attention! I'm not feeling well today, but as I skip through these threads, the knot in my stomach just swells.

I've got to leave for now! It's TUMS TIME!
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. Chump Change.
a term some of us older timers are familiar with.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
356. Change . . .




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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #356
434. This is exactly why Obama needs to be careful. His status quo
and Nostalgic re-enlistment of the DLC is frightening to say the least, particularly because the DLC is bought and paid for by the Big Corporations.

We are not going to get change until we boycott the big corporations and force them to become good citizens, but it's way too late for that. They own washington with all the monopoly money they wield in order to shape policy for their own benefit.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. Quel Surprise
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
188. PUMA!!!!!
:sarcasm:
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. This is what we all voted for. STOP WHINING!
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
254. NO. This is NOT what we voted for.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #254
373. Actually, it is
Obama promised to listen to his Generals when it came to waging war and protecting the troops.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #373
435. The Generals AKA Military Industrial Complex, are wrong.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #435
474. And you are qualified to say that because.....
Why should Obama trust your opinion over theirs?
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #474
535. The generals would be right
if they court-marshalled every m'f'ker who were resonsible for the torture in front of a firing squad.
That would be appropriate and that would show that they are actually in control of the situation.
As it stands - they are not in control, they are targets each and every one of them over there in Iraq. Hiding things has never solved a damn thing.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #254
452. Yes it is!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
430. I didn't vote for covering up war crimes.
Don't even begin to assume you can speak for anyone but yourself.

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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. may be it would lead to prosecutions if those pictures are released?
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
193. The photos that were already released....
weren't sufficiently graphic enough to get the prosecution ball rolling? Show them all! Show the kids getting sodomized. Just pixelize their faces because we don't care about their faces. So what if the victims recognize themselves, or their mother or father recognize their bodes in the photos. Who cares about what they think. We care what happened to them and we can't do that without seeing the pictures. Don't they get that?!? :sarcasm:
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. ABC: President Obama Reverses Course on Releasing More Detainee Abuse Photographs
President Obama Reverses Course on Releasing More Detainee Abuse Photographs
May 13, 2009 12:45 PM

President Obama met with White House counsel Greg Craig and other members of the White House counsel team last week and told them that he had second thoughts about the decision to hand over photographs of detainee abuse to the ACLU, per a judge's order, and had changed his mind.

The president "believes their release would endanger our troops," a White House official says, adding that the president "believes that the national security implications of such a release have not been fully presented to the court."

At the end of that meeting, the president directed Craig to object to the immediate release of the photos on those grounds. In an Oval Office meeting with Iraq Commander General Ray Odierno, the president told him of his decision to argue against the release of the photographs.

The move is a complete 180. In a letter from the Justice Department to a federal judge on April 23, the Obama administration announced that the Pentagon would turn over 44 photographs showing detainee abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq during the Bush administration.


more:http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/05/preside...
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. fucking disgusting
n/t
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Our enemies might hate us more?
Is it a matter of our enemies hating us more or our few allies liking us less? The world will rise up against us at some point. The way it rose up against Nazi Germany. But wave the flags and be good Germans.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
129. Like they don't already PS This guy's testicles are electrically wired
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
169. dupe
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:51 PM by saigon68
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
229. What Obama and torturers fear is us rising up against them -- !!!
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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
366. Our friends will.....
...hate us now.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. That's how the BFEE gets away with it.
They do things so disgusting they know it can't be revealed for "national security implications".
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. "...But the president strongly believes
that the release of these photos, particularly at this time, would only serve the purpose of inflaming the theaters of war, jeopardizing U.S. forces, and making our job more difficult in places like Iraq and Afghanistan."

There's only one logical course of action: End U.S. imperialism, and bring all military personnel back where they belong.


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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
105. End U.S. Imperialism
I can't believe that OBAMA is going to be "every the bit" of WARMONGER that LBJ was ...

THIS IS OBAMA'S VIETNAM. :grr: :nuke:
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
134. Yes, thank you. Put 'em on the planes and boats this afternoon.
And no, I'm not kidding. Never should have been either place in the first place.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
232. That's a load of BS . . . intended to keep imperialism going -- get out of Iraq/Afghanistan -- !!!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
432. PER A JUDGE'S ORDER -- you're not above the law, Obama.
"Change".

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Cowards
Hiding the facts does not undo what the agencies you now command did. Cover-ups make it worse, always.
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Xolodno Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. How about the dignity of those who were tortured?
If those photos are released and lets say some of those prisoners are released to their home country...they may not be welcomed back. For example (albeit a bad one), what if one of them was photographed while being force fed pork? That may put a stain and stigma on that individual for the rest of his life. Why torture them even more? Save the photos for the judge and jury.
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. They could easily blur the faces of the innocent.
We simply need to SEE what our government was doing in those prisons. They need to release ALL OF IT immediately.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. No thanks. I want the truth. n/t
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yay! Now THIS is the "change" we voted for!
Same old crap, different party.

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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. HaHa...
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:09 PM by jefferson_dem
Making fun of supposed "change" not delivered.

That's (not) a new one.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. That's (not) a new one.
Apparently neither is this administration.

Sucking up to big money on Wall Street, ignoring the average American in health care, now this.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. time to raise a ruckus. this is not acceptable. fuck this.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
441. I already have. It's called divorce from the American Capitalist system
This decision is the only thing we can do to indicate that we are not going to go along with this crap willingly.

We have to follow the models of Gandhi, Martin Luther King and other Pacifist resistors and refuse to serve the powers that abuse our trust, steal the fruits of our labor, and do things in our name that we do not agree with, or know about.

Armed insurrection will do nothing but cause chaos and hardship for innocents, and the government is too well equipped to be able to confront head on. We must all stand together and become less involved with the operation of their systems of governmnet until they can no longer function. They will pass laws forcing people to go to work, or prohibit certain actions in a move of desperation and attempt to coerce the general population to conform, but sustained resistance will cause them to capitulate.

They derive all of their powers on our cooperation, and once that disappears, they got nothing. There are simply more of us, and we are the ones that actually run the country.


For those of us that woke up to this fraud in the early 2000's we are already self sufficient. It is too soon to see how the millions of uneducated sheeple will react when they realize that we are losing our republic to the Corporate interests.


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BlueJessamine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. ACLU SLAMS:
If its true that theyre reversing position, we find that wholly unacceptable, ACLU attorney Jameel Jaffer told POLITICO. Its inconsistent with the commitment theyve made to the court and its inconsistent with the promise of transparency that theyve repeated many times both before the election and since.

Jaffer said the ACLU had not been officially informed of the governments change in stance, which he earlier called an effort to renege on the administrations prior promise.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22470.html
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Whatever is in those pics...
...must come out. Bad, good or indifferent, we the people have a right to know what was done in our name.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
218. Agreed, but it should come out in court, during court,
and not before. Showing these photos will make not keep it from happening again. There are bad actors and sometimes seeing these kind of pictures just encourages them, gives them ideas. You can also endanger a good prosecution case by releasing your evidence. We know these things happened because we can read reportingn on it, and reading it is bad enough. I do not need to see pictures before I am convinced.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #218
236. "Gives THEM ideas" . . . ??? WE attacked THEM . . .!!!
For those afraid to see truth - fine . . .

On the other hand, I think we need to see it and maybe we will get the shock of our

lives and WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

That's what they truly fear--!!!

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #236
240. I'm talking about the perverts out there....
We already know the truth, we can read about it. I don't need to see pics to prove it. That kind of EVIDENCE should be reserved for a court of law, the Hauge if you will. I'm saddened that people need to see pictures of abuse before it is real for them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #240
320. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Gonzalez . . . are "the perverts" . . .!!!
and exposing them and American policies is the best way to prevent thisfrom ever

happening again!

Who reads in America? Americans needs to see this evidence and wake up to the truth --

and, again, it is THE COURTS WHICH HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR YEARS TO RELEASE THIS INFO

TO THE PUBLIC!!!

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #320
327. And they don't give a rat's butt...
I think its wrong to release the photos.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #327
330. The Courts are right in fighting to release this info -- America needs to see it--!
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #330
335. Free child porn and snuff photos for the masses...
won't change a thing. Won't prevent a thing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #335
339. YOU may see this as "porn" . . . but I doubt other Americans will . . .!!!????
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #339
350. Definition of "porn" or "pornographic"...
Per American Heritage Dictionary - 1. "Sexually explicit material that sometimes equates sex with power and violence." 2. The presentation or production of this material."

Yep. I agree these pics would definately be considered porn. I bet others consider it the same as well. What do you consider porn?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #350
352. Few will see this torture as "sex" . . . they will see it as TORTURE . . .
And let's hope that's how you will also see it!!!

Some people see "porn" as love making tho it is abuse and degradation of females ---
and in many cases children!!!

Some people have some perverted ideas about sexuality and expression of love --
but I have faith that Americans will see this for what it is -- TORTURE!!!

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #352
354. I did not refer to it as "sex" I refered to it as porn. It is porn.
It is abuse and it is torture.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #354
419. Your American Heritage definition: "Sexually explicit material that EQUATES sex . . . "
Again "porn" is simply a distorted, perveted view of normal human sexuality . . .

"Sexually explicit material that sometimes equates sex with power and violence." 2. The presentation or production of this material."

Anyone who would see "porn" or "sex" in torture is perverted . . .

And, again, how many replies on this thread .... I haven't seen anyone else suggest that
Any American would find sexual stimulation in films of torture!


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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #419
533. Fine.
Since no admits to it publicly then surely it never happens. I'm sure that's why there is no market for things like snuff films or child porn.

:banghead:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #533
553. Don't judge others by yourself . . .
Nor project your own views onto others --

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #553
557. One doesn't have to be a pervert
to know they exist.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #240
457. Ain't that the truth!
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
367. It's also the only way
that many right wingers will believe that these atrocities were actually committed.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. NYT: "... Robert Gibbs .. is set to take questions .. 1:30 PM ..."
May 13, 2009, 12:43 pm
Obama Tries to Block Release of Detainee Photos
By Jeff Zeleny
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/white-hou...
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
212. key word: TRIES
we'll see...
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. according to the link Roon gave
According to one official, "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."

According to military officials many of the photos are similar to the infamous prisoner abuse photos out of Abu Ghraib prison, but some of these photos reportedly include mug shots of prisoners who appear to have been badly beaten during their capture or interrogation.

I heard this reported on my headphones will listening to Thom Hartmann..the report also said that judge had already ruled they be released so we'll see what happens.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
238. It's not the photos that put a "target on the backs of troops" . . .it's TORTURING PEOPLE . . .!!!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #238
317. Absolutely right!!!
Re It's not the photos that put a "target on the backs of troops" . . .it's TORTURING PEOPLE . . .!!!
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
282. gee, if they weren't over there to begin with, wantonly killing & torturing,
where would the "target" be?

as if those fighting the imperialist invaders don't know what kind of monsters they're fighting.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
42. Could they do a hard copy release at a controlled location?
How about some kind of exhibition where people are able to see them but not able to take copies?

That might be a good compromise.
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. I'm sure this is heresy, but I was having doubts about the positive
impact of releasing those photos at this point in time.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. It's not heresy. It's a POV.
You might catch some shit from some people, but not from me.
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blueclown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. Who the fuck cares what the President thinks.
Release the damn photos for the public good.

President Obama isn't a dictator.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
81. What "public good" will come frome releasing them?
We know the abuse happened, no one is covering that up. We know the photos exist and can probably guess what they are. Other than a whipped hysteria to prosecute an ex-president, which releasing these photos will do absolutely nothing to further advance, what possible "public good" comes from releasing photos of beat up people?

Will actually seeing the bruises and blood somehow give you more information than you have now?

Meanwhile backlash against the soldiers and against Obama's initiatives to reach out to the Muslim world are very real, very tangible effects. This is not the best time to highlight these abuses any further than they already have been on the world stage.
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blueclown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
107. The public good is the truth.
The truth should always prevail.

Backlash against the soldiers is just a right-wing talking point that Boosh's syncopants are throwing around so he can escape accountability and embarrasment.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #107
178. More platitudes
Again, what other good comes from seeing pictures of beaten detainees?

And even if you are willing to risk the backlash against the soldiers, Obama is planning a historic outreach speech in Egypt in less than a month. What good comes from graphically reminding everyone that we were beating up Muslims not to long ago even as we try to make peace?

What are we proving other than some crap about the "truth?" We know what bush did, why do you need the pictures so badly?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #178
198. why... to expose the truth so americans can judge for themselves
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:08 PM by fascisthunter
we don't live in a dictatorship... "What would the images do"... get real! You know exactly why they need to be released.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #198
239. We KNOW the truth already
Why do we need it graphically spelled out?

Look if we were exposing Abu Ghraib for the first time, or showing that abuse happened when other people were expressly denying it, I would agree with you. That's not what these photos are.

They are just more of the same. We know what happened. Does seeing it in all of its gory details - and creating more mistrust in the Arab world and more recruiting posters for terrorists - really make anything we ALREADY KNOW more or less true?

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blueclown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #239
263. We don't know the truth.
We do need it spelled out for us. In pictures.

How do you know these photos are just more of the same? Have you seen them? Do you have some special clearance as to where you are entitled to seeing these pictures?
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #263
314. Multiple news sources have said they are further pictures
of Abu Ghraib and Afhghanisan abuse which have already been exposed and prosecuted. CNN said over 400 military personel have been disciplined for detainee abuse.

These are old crimes, not new ones, just with more photography.

And again, after starting the whole conversation with releasing the waterboarding memos, what possible otivation does Obmama have to start hiding evidence of new crimes now?

You don't need to see every single photo of every single detainee to know what happened.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #239
374. Maybe you know the truth,
but there are many right wingers denying that these atrocities happened. They try to justify water boarding by claiming that it isn't really torture, but if the photos depict the obscenities I've read about, there is no way anyone can justify or rationalize what was done in our name.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #239
527. Because "we" DON'T "know the truth already"!!!
That's why we need to release THESE photos!!!

People are still in DENIAL!!!
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #178
302. "Again, what other good comes from seeing pictures of beaten detainees?"
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:12 PM by MilesColtrane
Hopefully, it shocks the American people into not allowing this to ever happen again.

A country that doesn't thoroughly and honestly acknowledge it war crimes breeds crazy, right wing nationalism. (See Japan, who only in the past 15-20 years has begun the debate on the extent of its criminal past.)
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #81
111. I have had....
serious misgivings about the release of the photos...

I will preface this by admitting I have a very sensitive make-up,
and visual images affect me greatly for long periods of time,
so even if they were released, I would not view them, for my own mental self care.

And, I have wondered just what would be the purpose in releasing them?
What good end would it serve?

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
126. I don't know whether seeing the photos will give me more information than I have now.
Because I haven't seen the photos.

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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #126
181. And I'm sure Obama and the Admin have
ANd If there were truly something to reveal other than senseless violence, I'm sure he would release that information. He opened this can of worms releasing the waterboarding memos in the first place. If hiding the 'truth' from everyone is what he wanted so bad, he never had to open that door.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
243. We need an AWAKENED AMERICA. . . we need America to rise up . . .
if these photos helped wake up America, then they are valuable.

And that is the truth of why Obama doesn't want to release them -- because he

knows that they will enrage Americans. Iraqis are already enraged over the torture!!!

We had no trials -- presumably most of the 140,000 people we netted in were innocent of

anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time and sold to us!

We needed to torture people to connect Iraq with 9/11 -- falsely.

Again -- Arabs already know the truth.

Obama wants to keep Americans from knowing it and understanding what was actually done

in our name.



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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #81
526. It's called "catharsis" - only AFTER we confront the SINS of our PAST can we MOVE FOREWARD!!!
Until then, we are just trying unsuccessfully trying to MASK a FESTERING SORE - if we don't EXPOSE and CORRECT the ROOT CAUSE the problem, the PATIENT MAY DIE!!!

WE CANNOT "MOVE FORWARD" IF WE IGNORE PAST ATROCITIES AND WAR CRIMES!!!
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
471. Your not a fucking dictator either.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
52. He'll be "forced" to let them out, like he's been "forced" to declassify the memos....
And he'll be laughing from inside the briar patch, the clever trickster, while the sun shines on all the ugliness of the Bush administration and Dick Cheney continues to unravel.

Just my guess based on Obama's trajectory so far.

Hekate


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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Very possible... as the judge has already ruled. However, I have always have misgivings about
releasing the photos in public as a former member of the military.

If their are to be prosecutions and/or investigations, they can be released "in camera"... (as in at the court under controlled circumstances)
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JenniferJuniper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. You could be right.
I hope you are right. Because something is going to have to happen here.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
96. My guess is releasing them will spur prosecutions. Covering up the crimes
will deter prosecution.

As a citizen I have misgivings about ordering troops to participate in an illegal war of aggression. If these photos serve to alert our population to just how illegal our invasion and occupation was and still is, that would be a great service not just to the country but also to the military.

The benefit would far outweigh the downside.

And I'm also loathe to subvert our open government in favor of a secret government for some temporary benefit.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #58
158. Yes, "in camera" release only.
I totally agree.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
246. If you truly want "change," then the public needs to know and to rise up --
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:39 PM by defendandprotect
and THAT is exactly what Obama is trying to prevent --

Iraqis already know what happened -- they've long known --

Americans need to know -- see the whole truth --

It is not photos which endanger our troops -- it is actually having TORTURED PEOPLE

WHICH ENDANGERS OUR TROOPS -- also long known!!



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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. I hope that's what's going on.
It's not a pony we're asking for, it's truth and justice and accountability.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. dupe nt
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:44 PM by Hissyspit
.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. Your guess stands on firm ground.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:48 PM by AlbertCat
This move not only removes the White House and Obama administration far from the images, making it more evident this is a Bush Administration thing, it also reminds us just how bad torture was for the country and our troops and how ugly it all is. If they are not released right away, because they are dangerous to reveal, the imagination of what's in those photos can run amok. This could make them seem even worse than they are! Mainly this can be a reminder why torture is not to be used.

I'll bet they get released eventually.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. I hope you're right and he's not just another Third Way Centrist ....
lest we're all screwed ... well, all BUT the illustrious Investor Class.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #52
230. I was hoping this was some form of his "Rope-a-Dope" strategy to
get the Cheneys and Limbaughs and Rumsfelds to blab on and on defensively.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
305. Its very possible, and part of the reason I'm not fuming that much.
He isn't coming off as over-eager to bring us closer to accountability, but he has done so at several points.

The real question is whether he is playing politics with us or the torture apologists.
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Mark Twain Girl Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
311. Why? I hear this argument and it never makes sense - why? and why this?
The clever trickster? Why does he have to be deceptive about what he wants to do? It sounds like an emotional wish to me -- if you want him to have acted differently, you just claim that he has brilliant motives we just can't understand and then make up some reason why.

If he thinks Bushco committed war crimes, why not just say so?

He has said that he doesn't believe that the Bush admin commited grave crimes. Was he lying then? And lying now? And using right wing memes like "it will hurt the troops?" At the end of the day, it's all just... lies.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #311
364. Here's a link to the article that changed my mind forever about Obama's methods...
Perhaps it will help you see why I say what I do, or perhaps it will fall flat for you. But the more time goes on, the more I see President Obama's behavior through this lens. He wins in the end. He fulfills his promises in the end.

Obama seems to get most of what he wants by giving some of it up, I've noticed. But he doesn't give up much and he reserves the right to come back for it another day.

He plays rope-a-dope with his foes, according to Andrew Sullivan. It seems to be working on Dick Cheney...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/20...
and the original
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/and...

Keep calling and writing your congresscritters -- that's our part in this dance.

Hekate
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
68. Just more Change we can Believe in...
:puke:

RL
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Yep, Soooo, Let's talk about PUPPIES!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
71. Welcome, My Son ... Welcome, ... to The Machine.
The Pentagon RULES Barter Town. :grr: :thumbsdown:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
72. well, we surely cannot jeopardize the OIL INTERESTS in Iraq and Pipelanistan
can we? we have to keep soldiers there to secure OIL CONTRACTS and CORPORATE INTERESTS. instead of BRINGING THE SOLDIERS ALL HOME, they would rather leave them there like so much cannon fodder to protect those HUGE pipelines and oil fields. because thats the only fucking reason we are in either of those goddamned places.
so Obama chooses to leave the soldiers there and not release the photos because it might put the soldiers in harms way??
excuse me, but the soldiers are in harms way, Obama, because you choose to continue sending them over there to protect OIL interests and corporate assholes.
Bring them Home.
and release the frigging photos.

the truth will set you free.


http://www.alternet.org/audits/139983/pipeline-istan%3A...
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
174. Or the PUPPET Mayor of Kabul our CIA Puppet
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
82. I feel the way Windy does
I want them released but should they be on the internet as horrific as they are? Our troops in Iraq are in still in dangerous circumstances. Would like to hear from family members on how they feel about it.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Not a family member
Edited on Wed May-13-09 12:59 PM by JonLP24
But I was over there in Iraq from June '06-'07 and I have close friends currently over there including one that was back door drafted. I support the release, troops are in danger as it is and they would be safer at home. I'm not a fan of government secrecy and something like torture is not something I'm a fan of covering up.
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #89
187. thank you
I'm glad your home :-) I agree with your position. My worry is that in light of the recent fraticide that occurred in Baghdad that the release of the photos might harm the psyche of others already trying to cope with so much they've experienced. I also worry that citizens here might take it out on the troops returning home. I lived through VN and remember how they were chastised. Perhaps it's different this time and the right people will be held accountable. It is time that the suits who sent them there without necessary equipment and for extended deployments pay for their decisions. For too long they've gotten away with it while it trickled down to our vets. That needs to stop today. I appreciate your service more than I can say. You were not drafted and that says a lot about a person's integrity. Thanks
:applause:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #82
250. Did we all die from having seen the orginal photos . .. or did it help?
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
85. I understand the need to be moderate...
to achieve certain goals, but this is not one of those times! C'mon Obama, grow some cojones!
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
90. Everyone who wants to see the photos is just being voyeuristic. I don't need to see pictures of
slavery to know it was wrong. So if they decide not to release photos, but still change the policy, I don't see what the problem is at all.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
121. There are always excuses and moral judgments around government censorship.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #90
255. Many won't believe it until they see it -- you can tell that from the original
reactions to having heard about torture.

Additionally, the COURT did not think it was "voyeuristic" -- of all things!! --

to see the torture photos -- and thought the public should see them.

Meanwhile, it is the torturer who is a "voyeur" -- the torturer who is the sadist --

let's not reverse reality.

America needs to grow up and wake up -- and that's what profit from imperialism and

wars do not want to happen!

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PlanetBev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
92. How much worse than what we've already seen?
That picture of the hillbilly girl with a leash around a naked Muslim man's neck already put a bullseye on everybody in the American military.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. unspeakably worse
So bad that they would make Obama go back on his promise he made to all of us who worked our asses off and gave up time with our families to get him into office.

This is a big disappointment, and I'm old enough to not be easily disappointed.
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #97
118. question?
"So bad that they would make Obama go back on his promise he made to all of us who worked our asses off and gave up time with our families to get him into office."

Was releasing torture photos a campaign promise?
Must have missed that one.

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
136. Umm... I Think That Falls Under The Open and Transparent Section.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM by jayfish
Jay
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #118
451. this is completely inconsistent with everything
Obama ran on with regard to transparency.

This goes to FOIA, and the President's been clear on that: The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. "The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears."

There really are, I think, only three possibilities:

1. These photos are horrible, and they threaten to detract so much from the domestic agenda, that the President is fighting disclosure in order to get healthcare passed.

2. The President knows that the "new legal argument" is completely spurious, and is just looking to buy time.

3. The President knows that the "new legal argument" is spurious, and in fact is just looking to have it invalidated in court while giving himself cover politically.

The actual reason given, BTW, is laughable--endangering our troops? Are they not in a war zone? How much more danger could they be in? Do we need to give our enemies the power to change things like whether we are to remain an open society? This "argument" is so laughable it's hard to credit Obama would credit it for a moment.

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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
95. Aren't the troops who are "endangered" in a war zone?
Sounds as if they are already in danger. If you want them out of danger, bring them home. If you think part of the reason we are supposed to venerate the profession of arms is that they willingly tolerate danger, I don't see the big deal.

Oh, and it was the torture that was reprehensible, not the photos of it. If they are that reprehensible, that sounds like a good reason to make it public, not to cover it up.
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MirrorAshes Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
98. you guys aren't seeing the forest through the trees...
1st off, this WOULD force a new wave of anger through the areas where we have people's lives at stake. That really does mean something.

2ndly, it doesn't change the fact that this slow trickle of information and the debate its causing is keeping the story alive--and keeping the story alive is what will motivate people to take action. Obama hasn't closed the book on anything, he is simply being cautious. Would he ANY of this to be happening if he were simply going to roadblock it? No. That would make no sense. Yes he is being cautious--and some will certainly say overly cautious--but we are taking baby steps in the right direction. This is probably one of the most politically difficult things any president has ever faced--but we have clear indications that this is moving forward... slowly, but surely.

So take a deep breath. We all have to be patient. If, in the end, Obama has done nothing and this all fades away, then by all means, he deserves whatever criticism he gets. But for now... have a little faith. something this awful can't be undone in a day, or a week, or possibly even a year.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. All I'm seeing now is "White Wash" with a side of "Cover-Up" with us (Dems) once again
in the position of enablers / co-dependents. :(
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MirrorAshes Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. well then you're jumping to conclusions.
this is going to take time to play out. possibly a long time. save your anger for when it will actually be justified.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #110
138. No, I will NOT. The longer this takes, the MORE innocent people die.
We must uncover the FARCE that is this occupation and bring our troops home now.

No, we have TWO ongoing OCCUPATIONS and more troops deployed than last year under Bush.

I will NOT be patient. :grr: :thumbsdown:
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #110
180. WAIT? MORE TIME? INFLAME PEOPLE? Where's MY Transparency??
OMG, as each day goes by, I see that I HAVE ONCE AGAIN been DUPED!! I've HAD IT!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #102
260. The courts have been trying to get this stuff out to the public for years -- !!!
America needs to see them and really wake up!!!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. This isn't about troop safety, it's about politics.
We're bombing women and children to kingdom come. A few pictures can't make anyone hate us more than they already do.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Exactly
Blocking these photos won't stop the roadside bombs or the complex attacks. It is danger zone, I've been there. Contracters got kidnapped, troops got killed, and people over there hated us. Not everyone but quite a few people did.
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MirrorAshes Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #109
144. its about both.
to dismiss the troop's safety argument is to deny reality.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #144
160. The reality is they are already in danger
Complex attacks, roadside bombs, attemted hijackings, etc are a daily occurence. This decision isn't going to make much of a change one way or the other.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #144
161. There was no uptick in attacks on our troops after the Abu Ghraib material was released.
And the so called "enemy" knew about this torture and abuse before we did. So, no, the troop safety argument is bullshit.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #144
173. No. Believing that pieces of paper will endanger our troops more than our actions already have is
to deny reality. We bombed Afghanistan, then we invaded and occoupied Iraq for seven effing years. Meanwhile we tortured, denied legal rights, the whole nine yards.

EVERYOne in the world knows what we did, probably more than we do. And you think the photos are going to matter more than all the actual flesh and blood events, deaths, etc.? That's what you consider reality?

You are buying into someone's Big Lie.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #173
389. I agree completely. nm
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #144
264. It is "dismissable" - had Bush/Cheney been concerned about troops . . .
they wouldn't have permitted TORTURED which does endanger our troops --

Americans need to see this stuff and wake up -- and that's exactly what TPB fear.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #98
128. In the end?
When is "the end?"
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MirrorAshes Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #128
150. I don't know.
Noone does. Which is why we've got to have at least a tiny little bit of faith that once "the end" does come we can look back on it and say we tried our best to undo all the wrongs from the Bush era in as responsible a way possible.

Being too hasty while walking such a thin tightrope is a surefire way to make this all backfire on us and the party. We do it right, a republican might never be elected again. We do it wrong, we could have Sarah Palin in 2012.

This is why I will save my anger and continue to put trust in the man I worked so hard to elect.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #150
267. The courts have been trying to release this stuff to public for years -- !!!!
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
100. Good.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
104. Good.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Yes, if we don't see the pictures, I'm sure the rest of the WORLD has not also.
:crazy:

If we don't show the pictures, THAT means that we didn't REALLY TORTURE?!?

Damn this Administration for PROTECTING DICK CHENEY first, NOT the Troops. :grr:
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #108
332. Releasing photos would harm soldiers, not Cheney. n/t
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #332
363. no it wouldn't. this is from the PAST, under BUSH
our "enemies" know we are not doing this crap anymore.
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diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #332
375. Then get the soldiers out of there.
You think the Iraqis don't already know about the torture Americans have committed? What makes you think they like American servicemen anyway? We are over there killing innocent civilians - mothers and children on a daily basis.

This is NOT about protecting soldiers in Iraq. It is about protecting Americans from seeing the truth of what their govt. is doing. The same reason they don't show video of the carnage the US is committing on the streets over there. The same reason, until recently, that they wouldn't show bodies coming home.

The reason we are rated so low in freedom of the press.
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JustinL Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
112. so he's blocking the release of the photos, but not the firing of gay troops?
I donated hundreds of dollars to the man last year, but I'm about ready to give up on him.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #112
122. If We, The People, stand up and protest this, we could MAKE Obama do his job.
After all, behind all the good looks, intelligence and likability, Obama is a consummate POLITICIAN first and foremost.

Let's MAKE him do it ... we can with our threat of votes for more progressive democrats during the 2010 Primaries.

I'm ready to clean House. Are you?
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #122
269. Would That We Could... Would That We Had The Power... Truth Is...
MONEY talks, and the same people keep getting elected BECAUSE they raise the most money!

BEEN THERE, trying to elect NEW people more times than I'd like to remember. I'm WITH YOU, just don't have a clue as to how to get it done!

One thing for sure, I'm really getting fed up with the "CHANGE" that we keep seeing happen! And it's NOT THE CHANGE I thought we were going to see!

It's POLITICS and I think it's time for me to crawl away! Maybe another day I'll feel different, but what I've seen so far is "small" and unfortunately it appears to comfort a lot of people these days. Obama has done "some" things, but he's BLOWING the bigger stuff!

I'm very disappointed right now!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #112
271. Right . . . too dangerous to overturn "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" but no problem helping torturers . . .
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
130. If the photos are extremely graphic...
Say for example, if they show photos of children being sodomized (which I have seen eluded to on other DU postings), do you really need or want to see it. Not all crime scene photos make it into the media. There's a reason for that - victims have a right to their privacy.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. this is about the privacy of the perpeTRAITORS, not the victims...
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:34 PM by dysfunctional press
and it's fucking disgusting for obama to be putting his tail between his legs for his military-industrial complex masters so quickly.
it's very unbelievably uncle tom-ish of him.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #135
155. No, what's disgusting is that ..
some people would appear to have to see these photos to be convinced. I do not disagree that the perpetraitors should be punished, no matter how far up the ladder it goes they should all be punished, but do you have to see the photos.

If you were a victim of these crimes, and lived, how would you feel about knowing that your pixeled face on every tv and computer screen in the world.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #155
164. up until today, obama was pushing for their release as well.
and for your info- the faces of the victims are generally pixilated and unrecognizable.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #164
175. That doesn't make it better...
The victims will know its them. Guess that's okay with you. What if it was your brother, son or daughter? Is that okay?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #175
183. if it were one of my loved ones- i'd be screaming even louder for their release...
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:01 PM by dysfunctional press
i wouldn't what was done to them to go unpunished and just be hidden away.

if victims of CRIMES are continually 'shamed' into hiding the facts of the matter- even though they've done NOTHING wrong- how would/could criminals ever be brought to justice for their actions...?
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #183
252. So if it was your child...
or brother or father who was abused or sodomized you'd want the whole world to see the pictures? Really?! I completely disagree with your comment that victims are continually shamed into hiding facts, although I might make an exception if I was a victim and someone released pixeled photos of me being raped or tortured to the world. That might be the only way I could feel more humiliated or shamed.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #252
276. I'd absolutely want the videos released and all pictures -- how else do you stop this ????
Do you think you stop torture by hiding the photos of it?

Do you think you stop torture by hiding from the truth of it?

What they fear is having the public rise up over these photos --

they need Americans to stay quiet, stay controlled!



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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #276
291. You use the photos as evidence in a trial and you
prosecute, convict and sentence them. The troops that perpetrated these crimes were ordered to do so. Do you really think that showing Cheney's handywork to the masses will change anything? They will just look at it and say they made America safer by what they did. They are not ashamed of it and they can't continue to order it to be done so what is the point of showing all the photos now. People who are inclined to torture, rape and murder, regardless of who's name it is done in, are not going to change my mind because they see some photos of it being done.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #291
312. The Nuremberg Trials are a perfect example against ....
your false sense of reality --

Nazi crimes/tortures were made public -- all of them --
photos in newspapers -- on film -- released.
Did you die from that knowledge or from seeing those photos?

Eisenhower demanded that German citizens be marched thru the concentration camps.
So the truth could not be denied in future -- by anyone.

Again, "obeying orders" is rejected as an excuse for doing torture.
Check out Nuremberg Trials.

The point of having America see the photos/film is so that it is indelibly impacted
on their conscience -- and hopefully they will rise up and demand prosecution.
THAT is what TPB fear -- America awakening.

America is threatened by the likes of Bush/Cheney -- not by "terrarists" -- In fact,
the whole world agrees that the US is the "terrorist" . . . including the UN so labeling us!

And, think you got a little confused here . . .

People who are inclined to torture, rape and murder, regardless of who's name it is done in, are not going to change my mind because they see some photos of it being done.

The courts have been working for years to release this info to the public -- I think they
judged well. We make grave error when we fail to prosecute and hold people responsibile
for the atrocities they commit. The past 50 years is emblematic of that!

All history argues for truth -- and that truth needs to be seen and understood in full.

Again -- it is our nation's agenda to commit TORTURE which endangers our troops ---
not photos or film of the torture we committed. Americans need to see this truth and
feel the full impact of it.


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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #312
329. The Nuremberg Trials...
really scared the crap out of the Bush administration. Really kept them from committing war crimes. :sarcasm:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #329
334. They will always try . . . however, the precedents sent by not holding Nixon
responsibile . . . by not honestly investigating JFK coup, MLK coup, RFK coup . . .

Iran Contra, S&L Thefts and Embezzlements, Vietnam . . . and our torture program in

Vietnam/Operation Phoenix . . . . 50 years of political violence and election steals --

THAT encouraged Bush/Cheney.

Plus they were able to keep their actions secret -- much of their stuff is still secret.

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #334
338. I agree with that, but ...
photos aren't going to make a difference either. To release the photos would simply add insult to injury for the victims and their families and likely renew violence against our troops and perhaps even everyday Americans alike.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #338
345. That's not true . .. victims identities would be protected . . .
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:45 PM by defendandprotect
and, I'd imagine they would be among the first to want the world to know what

America did to their children! I would.

Again -- it is not photos which creates violence against our troops --

it is the actual TORTURE of people that produces violence against our troops.

Americans need to see this evidence and ACT on it -- and THAT is what TPB fear.

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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #338
477. I like your avatar
But do you know who Dali was?

He did not just paint cool melting watches.

He painted truth.

Just ask him.



I fully agree with Dali that the world should be revealed regardless of people's delicate sensibilities.

cheers, Juno the artist.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #338
529. Another texASS - figures...
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casaloma Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #334
485. Absolutely agree
Had to log in for the first time in yrs to say how much I agree that the atmosphere of secrecy in this country has poisoned and paralyzed us. We HAVE to advocate for truth. It seems so strange to me that so many here advocate for the reverse. Hiding things is what got us into, and enabled, this mess.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #252
405. definitely.
i certainly hope that you are never raped.

if it has to happen- i'd rather it happen to someone who'd have the courage to stand up to their attacker court, in the light of day- to make sure that the same thing couldn't happen to others.

but- if you're happy with your view, that's fine. for you. and an extremely sad commentary on what a weak-willed society we have become.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #252
528. Fucking STRAWMAN argument. BULLSHIT!
If I were the parent - I'd want ALL evidence to build a MOUNTAIN of EVIDENCE to INSURE the the GUILTY are PUNISHED!!!

I'd want JUSTICE!!!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #130
148. IMO, it is important that EVERYone know that deeds like this will not be hidden, covered
up, etc. That America will not look the other way or otherwise aid, abet or enable. That we will expose evildoers and prosecute them, as we obligated ourselves to do in 1988, when we became party to the UN Convention Against Torture.

That and only that is the way we are going to separate ourselves from the Bush Crime Family and their doings and begin to redeem America.

Anything less than that and the world will see no difference between one American regime and the other, no difference between Bushco and America as a whole. We will be less safe and so will our troops.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #148
281. Exactly -- keeping these photos from the public is keeping the secret hidden . . .
it's protecting the torturers --

EVERYONE needs to know that these things will no longer be hidden and kept secret --

That's the way to stop this -- and the only way.

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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #130
540. I trust Obama to handle this in a way that's in our best interest. n/t
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Blandocyte Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
132. Flip-flopping is now bound to be an issue next election year
This sucks.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #132
143. Republicans call it 'flip-flopping'.
Democrats think of it more like being flexible and willing to adapt to changes in circumstances. The truth is President Obama and the country can't suffer through more of the kind of insurgency we had after the original torture photos were released. In the long run it might be a good call. Think back to the horrific insurgency when we were losing service men and women every single day.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #132
162. Oh please.
Silliest comment of the day, and that's saying something.
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Blandocyte Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #162
490. They'll call it flip-flopping
See if I'm not right with my "silly" comment.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
133. hell no he doesn't need to show that sh...
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
137. Holding the photographs back does NOT equate to doing nothing
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:41 PM by demwing
Surely Obama has already seen the photos, and KNOWS what horrible details are included. Maybe, just maybe, we DON'T know what all of the pictures portray. Perhaps we have heard only a small percentage of the crap that has been done in our name, and the complete set of images are revolting and incendiary, dangerous not only to our troops, but to our citizens at home and abroad.

Think honestly for a moment, and answer which of these two scenarios seem most realistic:

1. Obama fooled us, has sold out to the BFEE, and is protecting Bush, Cheney, etc

2. The Bush administration was more evil than we thought, and the photographs depict acts that are much worse than anyone has previously guessed.

Of the two, #2 seems the most logical answer.

I don't care if the photos are released to the public. In fact, I hope they are not. What I care about if whether the crimes are prosecuted, and whether justice is served. Tell me how justice is served any further if the photos are made public?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. Airing THE TRUTH makes sure that these Atrocities do not happen again.
The TRUTH, including those photos MUST be released ASAP.

Holding them back is WRONG. Obama is enabling the "war crimes" of the previous Administration.

I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THAT ... I VOTED FOR TRANSPARENCY!

:grr:
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #141
168. The truth yes...
Photos, no. This kind of thing will probably happen again and again regardless of whether you release these photos. The first ones were bad enough. Use the photos "in camera" as evidence in a trial, but it does absolutely no good to show them to the world.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #168
277. It does a WORLD of good. The criminals can NOT deny or resurface in future Administrations
Do you want another Bush-Cheney Presidency ... but on steroids because they already have set the groundwork, in the future?

We must SHOW the photos. NOW!
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #277
299. That can be done in court...
publishing the photos to the world in advance of a trial can cause you to lose the trial and get sued instead. There is a process to the rule of law and if its not followed you can do more harm than good.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #168
286. You have to have Americans see ALL the evidence of torture . . .
otherwise it can be denied -- and it will not have the impact it should have.

What we need most of all is America to wake up --

What they are trying desperately to avoid is .... having Americans wake up!!!

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #286
303. I'm sure a juries' eyes would be sufficient to convict.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:11 PM by FloriTexan
They have already acknowledged this stuff happened. People have already been convicted. Yes, those convictions need to go up the chain but this is not the way. Also, it won't be just Americans who see these photos. It will be the families of the victims and the families of the perpetraitors. If it was your son or daughter doing the torturing or being raped and tortured would you want their photos all over the world?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #303
313. The Courts and the ACLU do not think so . . . this is for all Americans to see . . .
and feel the full impact of --

and talk to one another about -- on websites and in person.

And, finally, let's hope to rise up as Americans should against this ever happening
again and holding those responsible for it.

If it was my son or daughter doing the torture, I'd probably turn them in!!!

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #313
331. Not a single photo of previous wars...
or photos of previous war crime victims has had the effect of preventing what the Bush Administration did.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #331
337. What Bush/Cheney did is "illegal" -- because of law . . .
Our Constitution bars "cruel and unusual punishment" --

Military law prevents torture --

Geneva Accords prevent torture --

And, common sense and history argue against torture --

We have had 50 years of political violence go unprosecuted . . .

THAT has encouraged Bush/Cheney --
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #337
341. Yes.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:43 PM by FloriTexan
Use the photos "in camera" at trial and convict the bastards. True convictions are not done in the media. They are done in a court of law.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #341
347. THE COURTS ARE ARGUING FOR RELEASE ....
and they've been arguing for getting this information to the public for years ---

So has the ACLU --

I think the courts know quite well what they are doing ---

And, whatever is done in our name, America needs to know it, feel it and see it --

That's why suppressing films of coffins and suppressing film of war is so wrong.

That's why America's rich partying while we are at war is so wrong.

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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #347
353. Technically...
aren't the courts are hearing the cases brought by others? Where do these hearings stand? What level are they at? I hope the rule against the release and hold that they should be for in camera use only in a trial. And, again, all the previous photos of war, death and dying, torture and torture victims from the past were unable to prevent Abu Graib. What makes you think these will have any more affect?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #353
428. The courts have decided that the public should see this video/photos . . .
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:39 PM by defendandprotect
that has been their effort over a number of years -- to bring the video/photos to the
attention of the American public.

Again, we could not prevent Abu Graib because it was done in secrecy -- and people illegally
"followed orders." Soldiers seem to have been denied information about and instructions against
torture as stipulated in Stockholm Syndrome, in Geneva Accords, in Constitution . . .
in Military Law!

Lawyers distorted laws on torture in order to please their superiors - or because of their
own personal perversions.

Doctors/Psychologists assisted and abetted torturers despite their oaths because they either
didn't care to resist or their ability to resist was too weak.

And, also because those in Congress who knew something about this did not act to prevent it.

Further -- because in the past we have not prosecuted government crime -- from Watergate to
Iran Contra and October Surprise.

Bush/Cheney should have been impeached -- these years of torture would have been shortened for the
victims.



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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #141
270. The truth exists, even if the photos did not
holding the photos back is NOT THE SAME as witholding the truth.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #270
280. PICTURES make it real. You know that. Abu Graib would not have been if NOT for
the Photos.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #280
543. So true Graner and the other War Criminals put the Chimp into it
He denied until the photos showed this scumbag to be a War Criminal


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ClusterFreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #137
182. Thank you for your sane voice amidst a rising tide of hysteria.
:thumbsup:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #137
186. You know, it's still an appeal to authority, i.e., authoritarianism,
when we do it. And there are other choices besides the false dilemma you pose, like Obama has his own PR reasons for blocking the release.

The best reason to release these photos is to build support for a prosecution. That's how they can serve justice.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
139. lookee here
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
140. If we don't release them, we look like pussies who can't take responsibility
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:56 PM by texastoast
for what we let the shrub administration get away with.

I'd be all for holding the photos until trial IF we could get a warrant on the Bush cabal.

Meanwhile, these photos WILL COME OUT. It would be better if they came from us who let it happen along with a vow that it will never happen again.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #140
146. This is more of Clintonian DLC type governing. Dammit, I've been punked again ...
Now what do they call themselves, Third Way? = Status Quo of enriching the Investor Class and pissing on everyone else ... Including the MILITARY with endless damn WAR WAR WAR. :grr:
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snowdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #146
165. Its Obama type governing. Obama can accept responsibility for
these decisions.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #165
275. It's still the same old "DLC" nothing ever changes bull shit - investor class wins
everyone else is fucked. :(
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
142. BOOOOOO !!!
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
145. I would like one person here defending Obama on this
To show where they also defended bush for the same thing instead of trying to castrate Bush for the same thing. BTW, I won't hold my breath.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #145
151. When you start praising Barack for the stuff you would be praising your primary candidate for...
You can start making such demands, william.

Welcome back. :hi:
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #151
159. Like I said I won't hold my breath.
Because it will never happen.

BTW, I never went anywhere. I just choose to post when I feel the need.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #145
154. There are two major differences.
One, Obama wasn't responsible for the torture, as Bush was.

Two, if Obama is ORDERED to release the photos, I doubt that he will ignore a ruling from the Supreme Court.

But we shall see.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #154
163. The only difference is who's trying to pass the kool-aid.
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Kahoneez Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
149. OCCUPATION is the BIGGEST Incentive
Supporters of Imperialist who suffer from some gene defect , can't understand when you invade and occupy a country , people tend not to like that and when you knock down doors & make arrests , people don't like that . It's a simple concept , yet supporters of occupation can wrap their jingoistic brains around that, so the photos won't add any more incentive than the old photos of U.S. torture already has or any more than the BOMBS that wipe out wedding parties in Afghanistan or the 25,000 arrested in Iraq by foreign troops (U.S.).
The only difference between Bush the Imperialist and Obama the Imperialist is .....................................................Obama has a jump shot.

CNN/ Kyra Phillips covered the press conference ,spent more time replaying the fun & games with the cell phones going off , showing once again , these degenerates in the so called 'news" media are more interested in entertainment and misinforming the public , instead of reporting this issue seriously . I hate these infotainers !
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
157. I'm not going to get worked up over this.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:45 PM by jefferson_dem
There are a few things I will go to the mat over. The failure of the President to support release of prisoner abuse photos is not one of them.

I totally understand Obama's position here, as I appreciate the push by the ACLU to force the pics into the sunlight. When/if they are released, it will not (necessarily) be with the President's blessing. Cool by me.

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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #157
171. I'm with you Jefferson dem.
I understand Obama's reasons and in some way, I'm relieved I don't have to see them. If Sy Hersh is right and there are photos of troops sodomizing children I can't handle the truth :)

This one is not worth going to the mattresses over.

(BTW, I understand "going to the mat" but why mattresses? The mat seems to be a fighters term, mattresses are for sleeping and other enjoyable things. Sorry, I got distracted by one of my leaset favorite movies. But then, I'm a girl so no wonder.)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #171
290. See The Godfather (the original). Keep a special ear out for the dialogue of the
Clemenza character.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #157
213. He's not failing to support the release, he is actively blocking it, reportedly
There's a big difference.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
166. Huffington Post, Raw Story et al). It "broke" hours ago....
Edited on Wed May-13-09 01:49 PM by LaPera
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
167. It is very easy to sit here
and slam Obama for this -- claiming transparency will set us free. If he thinks this will endanger our servicemen, specifically at this point in time, I trust his judgment. I agree that the truth must come out, but it's one thing to type about it, and another thing to ask our soldiers to live (or die) with the ramifications of these photos coming out.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #167
298. Please see Reply 225 and 148. Also, somewhere on this post is a post by someone who fought in Iraq.
He or she believes there will be no difference: our troops already have a target on the backs (from the invasion, occupation and actual atrocities).
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #298
442. that is one valid opinion
in a chorus. The President has to weigh all of them. If this is his judgment, I trust it. He may be wrong, but at least he is showing concern for their safety, unlike the man who put us in this situation.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
177. So much for transparency. New boss, same as the old boss....
in certain areas.
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keepCAblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #177
361. same pig just a new shade of lipstick.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
184. Whatever could the problem be? We didn't torture. So sez Darth...
If they have nothing to hide ....

:mad: :mad:
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rjwin Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
189. I believe we have had this discussion before
and Mamie Till Bradley made the right choice:

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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
190. Oh dear,
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
191. Heard this on Schultz -- disgusting . . .
Believe me, Obama isn't protecting the public in any sense . . . he's protecting

the TORTURERS .... Bush/Cheney --

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no_more_fascists Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
192. Sunlight is the best Antiseptic for a Diseased Political System
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:04 PM by no_more_fascists
What's the sound? Oh wow...it sounds just like back peddling to me! Clinton swept the Iran-Contra Affair under the Oval Office rug. Now, it is Obama's turn to do the same with the torture photos.

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
--from "Casablanca"
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #192
210. welcome to DU and yep nt
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #192
393. welcome to DU
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
202. It's Not the Americans who Can't Handle the Truth
it's the upper crust losers who have too much to lose who can't handle the truth, so they send out their trolls to argue against transparency, which is important when trying to hold criminals accountable and gain the support of other Americans to pressure this shity government of ours to do SOMETHING besides working for a bunch of rich sociopaths.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
204. Why were these photos taken?....Who were the photographers?...
Were these photos mandated (as in bush, cheney)? Are they part of The U.S. historical database?
Unless we tattooed U.S. military secrets on the backs of the detainees that were photographed
...we need to see them..
If U.S.tax payers' money paid for the photographers and/or the photos we
should have the option of seeing them.


Tikki
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #204
216. Sabrina Harmann and friends
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #204
289. Supposedly to frighten and intimidate other prisoners, parents . . . the world, I guess . . .
humilitation was big with the right-wing imperialists --

Personally, I think Bush/Cheney/Yoo/Gonzalez are sadists who probably

enjoyed thoughts of this torture and maybe even watching the films.

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
215. I would like to know what Senator Whitehouse would say about this?
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
223. cheney and the torturers threatened him
Don't doubt it folk.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
235. Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!
awhoooooo!!elevens!!11
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
244. absolutely fucking disgusting
fuck you, you stinking fake "consitutional scholar" and war criminal.
I want my campaign contributions back.
I will never vote for that fucking fraud again.
From now on, when that charlatan is on the tube, I will do what I did with * and the rest of the monsters--reach for the remote as quickly as I can. I will not believe anything that comes out of his mouth.
He sold us out to the banksters, he's selling us out to the insurance fraudsters, he's covering up war crimes, he's got his own useless Vietnam going in Afghanistan, he's french-kissing republican butt and using "lack of bipartisanship" as an excuse for ignoring the will of We The People.
oh, but everything's aok, because he's a "superhuman chess player" who has "secret moves" we mortals "can't understand." He's "eloquent." He's all about "change." He has a "D" after his name doncha know.

adios, ** (whose name I will not say again)

and kick me off this board, too, because I'm done with the fucking democrats--with very few exceptions, they are all stinking scum
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #244
251. Wow, You Said It All
I don't have the nerve.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #244
261. Amen! It's time for me to move on by working in my local community.
I too hold out NO HOPE for the CORRUPT SCUM who make up our national political leaders. With few, very notable exceptions, they are all career politicians and a waste of humanity.

Here! Here! :toast:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #261
294. They want you to give up . . .
These photos would help America wake up and rise up --

Meanwhile, you voted for Dems -- and doubt you'd vote for GOP --

So where are you going to go?

Work for public financing of campaigns -- FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT HR 1826 --

legislation in the works -- get your Senators and Reps to support/pledge/sponsor --

If we can get IRV voting we can break this circle of fascism...

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #294
321. I don't think I'm even going to vote anymore. Nader was right--there's no difference
"change" is a lie. I've been suckered for the last time. If I don't invest any energy in them, if I simply don't care, I lose nothing. There is nothing, really, to be gained by voting for a democrat, I finally see (after more than 40 yrs of voting for D's and thinking "the next time" would be better--when they won at all).
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #321
323. Think of women and African Americans and homosexuals and . . .
Martin Luther King, RFK, and JFK --

do you think they would have given up -- No.

Those who want to control others -- those with a penchant for violence -- will

always be with us. It is a constant battle.

You can't give up.

Look at all you've learned at this point!!

Fight for public financing and IRV voting -- and keep at it!!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #244
293. Where are you going to go?
I doubt you helped Dems only to go vote for Repugs . . .

Fight for public financing so we can get IRV voting and break thru this FU mess . . .

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #293
322. fuck any and all "candidates." I won't vote for anybody. I'd rather work to legalize pot
I'll just stay high all the time, and sell some LEGALLY to help with my retirement. screw the politicians--D, R, what does it matter? it's all war, all the time, in between picking our pockets for their various frauds and scams.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #322
325. I understand it's a bad day when we all feel betrayed . . .
but keep in mind that the COURTS are fighting and have been fighting for years

to get this info out to the public.

Support the ACLU if you can --

Again, they want you to feel helpless and like you can't force change.

I'm also trying to help the marijuana organizations as much as I can with

contributions . . .

The Drug War is another big opportunity for control of the public.

If we can get public financing then we can get IRV voting and bust up this two party system!

Hang in there!





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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #325
410. Seems Like Am Awful Lot Of "Bad Days" Since January Though.
Doesn't it?

Jay
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #244
513. Your realistic option is?
What? McCain/Pallin for christ's sake?

There is still a court case. A court case the previous administration was losing, I might add. I don't believe in anyone's cult of personality, but to say President Obama is a war criminal, which puts him on the same level as Bush and Cheney because of this, is completely disingenuous.

That is putting it kindly.

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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
247. Why? We the people have the right to know what went on in our names.
I guess its because if it comes out...they will have to prosecute and this administration has NO intention of prosecuting anyone for crimes in high government offices.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
248. Pull the troops out and release the photos.
Face it, it's a mess that cannot be fixed and it's not one Obama made. Even though the clean up is on his shoulders.

My solution is to accept that chaos will reign supreme if we pull out now or later. The regions are deteriorating with our troops there as it is. Then get our military's butts in gear and vamonos. Then we saturate the media with how the illegal use of torture by the previous administration left the US soldiers in such a dangerous situation there was no other alternative left available without facing massive loss of US soldier's lives.

Yeah, I know it's not going to happen that way.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #248
297. Funding Bush/Cheney wars for two years looks more like they intend to stay . . .
20 military bases in Iraq -- a Taj Mahal of an Embassy -- the oil pipeline -- !!!

Heroin in Afghanistan . . . it's TPB dream come true --

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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
256. This is political cowardice on Obama's part.
As another poster mentioned, he failed to get ahead of the message Cheney and the other torturers are floating-that the release endangers U.S. soldiers.

Well that ship has sailed. It was the acts themselves that make people hate our country and it's military. Trying to cover up the depiction of those acts doesn't make them go away.

Mr. President, releasing these photos is necessary for this country to begin to correct and heal the crimes and abuses against our Constitution and humanity that were engineered by the Bush administration.
Indeed, there will be NO healing until the band aid is ripped off and the full ugliness is exposed.

It is your duty to attempt to reestablish the ideals this country was founded on. It's why we elected you.

Don't do this.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #256
265. He's a politician and he wants to get re-elected. Naively, we thought he was
different but he's not - he's just more manipulative.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #256
309. I don't know if Obama reads what comes in via www.whitehouse.gov, but I'm willing to bet he
will not be reading this thread. If that is how you feel, at least try getting it to him via www.whitehouse.gov
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #309
316. Done
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
257. Fuck It. Kucinich Is My President (nt)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #257
300. Me, too -- cheers to Kucinich -- !!! Keep at it, Dennis!!!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #257
360. Department of Peace!
NOW!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
258. He is afraid of what this will do to the political discourse.
The more the average person knows about the shit the Bush Cabal was doing, the less sagacious "looking forward instead of backward" sounds.

My sense is that Obama wants this stuff to go away so that he can get other shit done without worrying about the many political difficulties caused by warcrime prosecutions. I wish he would get to it already so that the country can put its criminality behind it.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #258
266. Releasing these photos could very well help END these useless occupations.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM by ShortnFiery
Obama's big bosses in The Military Industrial Complex will have none of that and have ordered him to block their release. :(
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
268. Someone got to him - either threatened him with death
or terrorism against his family or the like. I don't think he's afraid of Cheney the man, but something has frightened him out of pursuing justice.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #268
272. I didn't vote for a "frightened" or "blackmailable" President. He should have thought
of the possibility and do his DAMN JOB. :grr:
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #272
283. Fucking A ShortnFiery
Boy, what the fuck is going on here?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #283
287. I believe that people are trying to take the easy way out. We can't.
It's painful but these law-breakers should be punished.

If we don't AMERICANS could be tortured after the next terrorist attack occurs.

THINK ABOUT THAT? = WE, USA Citizens could be TORTURED because we failed to EXPOSE these evil leaders NOW and they resurfaced MUCH stronger in the future.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #268
279. That Was My First Fucking Thought, And Yes
that's like a regular thought.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #268
301. You should have said that it is in your opinion. You state as if it were a fact something that...
you have no way of proving. Or in other words, you have posted mere speculation as if it were a proven fact.

While I am not happy about this outcome, I will take the administration at it's word that this decision was made for reasons of national security.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22470.html
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #268
318. Frightened? If he's that much of a coward, he should resign right now
Damn, he's got armies of Secret Service and better health care than the rest of us could dream of. And he wanted the job. That's a noxious explanation -- his comfort doesn't counteract the rule of law. That would be some kind of monarch or caesar in charge -- here's hoping we're still a wee bit shy of rooting for that.

As the fantasies about Obama's super duper top secret plans go, this one is just unusually awful.

If he/Congress can keep soldiers in wars to die, he should have the balls to "pursue justice," at the very least.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #268
340. Then he must resign, for he is derelict in his sworn duty
Such is the fucking nature of the job.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #268
473. lol
Life isn't that interesting. This is purely a polical decision by a polician. Not that I wouldn't doubt the CIA would do something like that.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
278. The wingnuts on my paper's website are applauding this decision
They're all "good Germans" who "don't know" what their country is doing.

We need to know. We need our noses rubbed in this. We need trials of those responsible, and if that includes a few complicit Dems, so be it.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
284. oh well, so much for that transparency, huh?
Edited on Wed May-13-09 02:56 PM by Javaman
it's like this, the majority of Americans are calling for morons* head over the torture issue.

Right now Obama can keep a simmering lid on the issue, if he lets out the photos, all hell breaks loose and investigation after investigation begins and it will show that many a Democrat were complicit on the torture issue. Come 2010, not only repukes will be tossed out on their asses by so will dems.

so many forces at work here. So many people screaming bloody murder behind the scenes to keep these pictures out of the publics eye.

We know they exist and at some point will be released. And as much as I respect Obama, this time, regardless of his excuses, reasons, plans, tactics, whatever, those photos need to be release and allow for the chips to fall where they may.

Cleaning out a horses stall first starts with a shovel.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
285. and lerkfish wept
:(
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
296. close your eyes can't happen here
Alexander Haig is near!
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
304. Caller on Schultz just said that Cheney is planning another 9/11
and that this media tour is to make sure that when it happens, everyone knows that it's because we're not torturing (enough) any more. Maybe this capitulation is a deal :shrug:
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:13 PM
Original message
Can we just have that alternate universe
like on "Fringe" where the WTC is still standing and none of this ever happened? I can't take this shit no more.
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nutshell2002 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
306. "Change"
Who knew it just meant a new house and dog?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #306
362. Only fools do.
n/t
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
307. Now headline news on BBC TV News here in the UK @ 9pm BST
x(

Hmmm : change................................. same shit different day.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
310. unacceptable...nt
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
315. Change????
change you cant believe.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
319. Those who authorized or ordered torture should be prosecuted, and the pictures used as evidence.
Human beings need completion. If I tell you the first part of a story or joke no matter how trivial or stupid, you want to hear the rest of it.

So, how does this apply to Obama's decision to release the torture pictures? The whole world knows that they exist. Everyone in the world outside the U.S. has heard the statements of people who were tortured. If Obama has the pictures and does not release them, if the complete truth is not told, the world can make up its own "facts." The best forum for releasing them is in a legal prosecution of those responsible for the torture. And that is why we need indictments and prosecutions.

If the whole truth is not made public, and if there are no trials, we, as a nation, will start a long process of endless therapy, theorizing again and again about who did what, when, why and whether it was wrong or right, reliving the moral trauma of this situation over and over.

Remember, Americans who lived through the Kennedy assassination still haven't dealt fully with that trauma. You cannot sweep things like an assassination or torture under the emotional rug. They stay in your life and gnaw away at you. That is true of individuals and of nations. It helps to know the whole truth.

Many societies deal with crime through personal revenge. Some believe that failing to avenge a wrong is a breach of honor, as a mark of weakness, a wrong in and of itself. It's the need of people in such cultures for vengeance that threatens our soldiers.

Officially, we do not have a culture of personal revenge. Rather, we have a legal system that relies on due process and evidence to establish facts and punish fairly. If we have lost our faith in the ability of our legal system to achieve justice, to serve as an alternative to vengeance and violence, then we encourage the cultures of vengeance and violence in other countries. We leave others no recourse but to rely on vengeance to restore their honor.

That is why, if we wish to protect our soldiers and other American citizens from revenge for these senseless, cruel acts of torture, then we need to show the world that our system of law works, that we have prosecuted and punished these crimes. We need to "avenge" these crimes through our legal process.

That was the point of the Nuremburg trials. It relieved the society and the families and friends of those who had suffered from the wrongs of the NAZIs of the need to take personal vengeance for crimes committed to them. Society took its vengeance through legal process. The torture pictures constitute evidence. Those responsible for the torture should be indicted, and the pictures should be entered into evidence.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #319
545. Cheney needs the perp walk
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
336. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
348. What BS
As if the rest of the world hasn't already whiffed our dirty laundry. We've all see the Abu Graib photos... I don't recall a terrorist backlash from those.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #348
396. About terrorist backlash
Edited on Wed May-13-09 04:53 PM by BelgianMadCow
how about if someone invaded the US (illegally) and bombed your house while you were away. You come home to find the smoldering remains of your kids.

Now that is gonna get you some backlash. To call it terrorism would be very unjust.

Any photo pales in comparison. But an image has a big audience you could say. Well, quite some people have experienced the above for real (we don't do body counts though).
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #396
397. But it is terrorism...
With the US being the terrorists.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
351. we must then assume the entire military and Government
to be guilty of the worst imaginable crimes. If they refuse to name the guilty, they wish to share the guilt amongst them. So be it. They are all rapsits and murderers and those who are not are willing to work with and cover up for the most brutal of criminals.
Covering up rape and murder is not acceptable. Only monsters do that.
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Stinger2 Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #351
355. When Cheney and Bush go on trial, Then they should be released to the Jurors!!!!!!!!!
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
358. Those Photo's must be pretty devastating.
This must be why Cheney is taunting the Administration to release the torture memos showing how successful they were, because Cheney knows that Obama can't without igniting a firestorm under the troops and undermine the current Chicken-Hawk builup for the next war in Pakistan.

Personally, we've already seen some pretty devastating photos out of Abu Ghraib, but the media had control over the populace at that time, and was able to buy several years of cover for Bush and his fiends. At this period, America is righfully outraged, and is demanding blood from Bush and Crew. But Obama continues to protect them, showing that he really has no say in the matter.

Just imagine the millions of people employed in Government that stay from one administration to the next, and you'll see why we have no change. It's a sham. It's the illusion of change. It's an illusion of Majority rule, because 51% of the people can dictate was 49% of the people have to do. That's not freedom.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
359. CNN LINK here:
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GoldenOldie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #359
379. If the photos are as bad as Sy Hersch says they are?
I want each and every asshole who participated, from Bush, Cheney right on down to the Congressional Reps who supposedly function as oversight. It doesn't matter be they Repub, Dem or Indp, they all should be tried in International courts,as the war criminals they truly are.

What I truly fear, is that these horrific photo's, will so enrage the Iraqi's and Afghani people that they take it out on our troops, the ones who are right there and represent the US and what we have allowed the traitors to do in our name. Having a grandson in Iraq and a grand-nephew in Afghanistan, I fear for not only them but all of our troops once these photo's are shown.....I would like to think that this is being considered by Obama.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #359
418. Obama is turning out in many ways to be Bush-lite!
Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU, said the president's decision "makes a mockery" of his promise of transparency and accountability.

"Essentially, by withholding these photographs from public view, the Obama administration is making itself complicit in the Bush administration's torture policies," Singh said. "The release of these photos is absolutely essential for ensuring that justice was done ... for ensuring that the public could hold its government accountable, and for ensuring that torture is not conducted in the future in the name of the American people."
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
370. What could be causing the President to get bad advice from military officials?
I have a feeling they are covering their own hide, and as Commander in Chief, Obama thinks it might be better for the Courts to decide.
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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #370
384. What could be causing the President to ACT on bad advice from military officials...
cowardice, that's what. Obama is becoming another disappointment.
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
380. This is not the change I voted for.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
381. Apparently "transparency" only applies when the news is good.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
383. There are only three possible explanations:
1) Block to keep troops safer (debatable at best).
2) Block to keep the US population underinformed. Imagine the clamor that would arise from a release of rape audio/video.
3) Block as a cunning political ploy: announce block, get strong reaction, "reluctantly" unblock. Seem to have seen this one before.

Don't really believe 1, am afraid of 2, hope for 3.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #383
386. It does seem that we've seen #3 before - I sure hope that's true here.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #386
413. The stated reason is #2 "endanger troops" it seems (from maddezmom's post upthread)
"The president "believes their release would endanger our troops," a White House official says, adding that the president "believes that the national security implications of such a release have not been fully presented to the court."

Still doesn't rule out deliberately inciting outrage so as to build public pressure, don't like to see it in print though.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #383
387. Best post here. I agree. Maybe (I hope) the President Barack Obama
is saying, "Hey everyone, don't look over here, this is too terrible to imagine. Please please don't look". "Well ok, if you insist. Remember I warned you not to look".

That'd be brilliant.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #387
391. It's very possible
Personally, I won't be happy if they don't come out in some way. But Obama has used language such as "delay," not prevent. I'll see what happens.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #391
398. He has to let them out. He campaigned on transparency. nm
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #398
422. I was surprised by this reversal
I'm sure the military was making these arguments before. Something made Obama change his mind, and I don't know what exactly. The world already knows what we did. I don't see releasing the photos as doing anything but providing more evidence in investigations. Maybe Obama knows they will be released anyway during those investigations. :shrug:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #422
433. Yes I agree. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. nm
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #383
394. I very much doubt that releasing the photo's will see a drop in violence
and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in the rose colored glasses world to think the world decided to love us on 1/20/09.

Releasing pics will get the jihadi sympathizer seething and an uptick in the civilian deaths will rise faster then the futile attempts they make at timimg explosions to kill the well insulated "non civilians" in the same blast zones.

#2 Block to keep the US population underinformed ? Thats a non factor as the majority of americans already know "torture" occured and continues to ocure.


#3 is "change" you can see in action.

There is an undercurrent of people who would dance at the results of a surge in violence the pics would cause. Why? Oh, just in the name of gaining a few meaningless political points for a few weeks...

jmo

Obama is doing the right thing as the spring moves into the summer offensive when the troops will begin to make a show of force.

jmo
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #394
403. A DROP in violence? Unlikely indeed. And on keeping the public underinformed
(not UNinformed) it's a very real possibility. YES, everyone or almost anyone knows about the possible/probable torture waterboarding debate. But limiting the debate to just that is leaving out a whole host of other atrocities. Surely you don't think everyone has read the Taguba report do you? Or Hersh's pieces?

I don't think the world started to love the US all over on 1/20/09 either. I know if it were my kids or family that died as a result of an illegal war and a continuing occupation, I'd still harbour a grudge. And obviously it fuels extremists as well. The war in Iraq will raise a whole generation of terrorists, regardless of some photos' release. US security has been compromised for quite some time. Cheney with "make us safer" really, I seldom use this but :puke:

Undercurrent of people? Are you implying I'm one of them? That would be absurd. I have no political points to gain and value all life on this planet.

"Obama is doing the right thing as the spring moves into the summer offensive when the troops will begin to make a show of force." I'm sorry but what's your point? That the block is good because there is gonna be more shock and awe and the release would somehow impact that?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #394
411. Bull shit. Noone wants increased violence. Do you think that trying to hid the truth will
keep the violence down? Bullshit. The world knows we did horrendous things and hiding the pictures will not make them forget. Quite the contrary. Hiding the truth is rarely the answer. Horrible things were done and we can't sweep it under the carpet. That sounds like what a republiCon would suggest. Let's get our dirty laundry out in the open and make ammends. Show the world that we know we screwed up and we are ready to go forward. To hide the evidence, especially when everyone knows it exists is wrong and un-fucking-American. The penalties can not be too harsh for those that authorized torture, carried it out and enabled it.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #394
424. What effect will NOT releasing the photos have though?
I mean, if we're worried about stoking pro-terrorist sentiment, just the fact that there are damning photos that the government won't release speaks mounds in and of itself, does it not?
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #424
449. "there are damning photos that the government won't release"
The fact Obama is personally and openly discussing these pics gives the ISSUE press.

Imagine the number of dodges Bush would have come up with ending obviously with terra terra nine elevah:

"No comment on an ongoing investigation"

"I have to do everything in my power to protect the american pleople, which I have sollemelly pledged to do."

"Even if it would mean just one additional soldier killed, I cannot put at risk our Fine Military, and I dislike the political games some people play."

"We cannot continue to the beacon of Hope for Iraqis if we allow the behaviour of the very few to influence the errm ...well the view of the Iraqis can't be allowed to deteriorate. And I want to say this directly to the american people - your news is filtered, there is many excellent detainee treatments that is not reported."

"I will let history be the judge of our actions to protect our Freedom and our Country in the face of these evildoers."

"I have had to make choices. And they weren't always easy choices. It's hard work, all the choicing."

"Well I don't ask any of YOU to release all candid photos you have at home do I? hehehehe next question"

Now watch my drive.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #449
544. Now watch my drive.
I wonder what the Chimp's handicap is?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
388. Soft on torture is not acceptable. You either follow the law...or you are complicit.
None of us voted for an administration that was "open to debate/bipartisan/let's just move on" from torture . Where is the respect for the law? Where is respect for common human decency? Where are the values? Is money going to be the only thing that anyone in DC cares about? Sure, corporations want the U.S. to torture and kill---it furthers their own colonial interests to have people in other countries scared shitless of our government.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #388
479. Excellent post and dead on. I'm with the ACLU: this admin has made itself complicit
Even if I bought the super secret plan theories (which I don't), if we need a super duper secret deception maneuver to **follow the rule of law** then we need to think long and hard about the kind of society we've become.
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
409. So much for transparency! Not showing these flies in the face of what we represent.I'm tired of this
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
415. Bush and Cheney put our troops in danger by torturing detainees...
President Obama doesn't want to release photos of detainees being tortured and I agree with him. Since evil Cheney is so proud of the success of the "program" why doesn't he want the world to see what he and Bush have condoned?

Sooner or later these photos will come out. If President Obama believes the photos will endanger our troops, then he must also believe that these people were tortured, therefore he should demand an investigation.

The right-wing parrots have a nerve to squawk about the photos, but they have very little to say about the torturous acts being committed in the photos. What planet are these people from?
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #415
417. We must put our emotions aside for a minute..
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:29 PM by rainlillie
I want bush and Cheney held accountable for all the rotten , vile things they've done; but if I had a relative in the military I wouldn't want these photos released to the public. I would want them released to the Senate and to Congress and hope that they demand a special prosecutor be put in place.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #417
431. Fuck that. I have been told to put my emotions aside for too damn long.
Our troops are in danger because we allowed our government to do horrendous things in our name. Trying to suppress the details now is stupid. Now is the time for us to clean this shit up. I am truly sorry you have a relative in the military and I wish them the best. But you will never convince me that holding back the truth will make them safer. You said show Congress and hope (HOPE??) they will do the right thing. Bullshit, Congress has betrayed us time and time again. "I am mad as hell and not going to take this anymore".
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Blandocyte Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #431
453. Totally in agreement
This isn't a matter of "emotion," it's a matter of law, if you ask me. If laws were broken and the pictures prove it, we should put aside emotion and start prosecuting.

You know, if the gov't thought I had pics on my cell phone that they thought were illegal, they'd be wiretapping that sucker like there's no tomorrow. But we citizens can't check on our gov't's activities? WTF?!