BREAKING NEWS: Obama will seek to block Gitmo interrogation photos, official tells NBC News

[Roon]

Source: MSNBC

No link yet
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

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[aquart]

1. For what possible reason?

[Aviation Pro]

3. Because we can't handle the truth.....

...or some such bullshit like that.

[Hepburn]

7. Well, I WANT the truth...

...because IMO if this comes out, Obama will have NO place to go except to find Bush, Cheney and the rest of the cabal and see that the motherfuckers are charged.

[LibertyorDeath]

328. Exactly

"because IMO if this comes out, Obama will have NO place to go except to find Bush, Cheney and the rest of the cabal and see that the motherfuckers are charged."

It's a very cynical political decision.

[SWr]

521. why

What purpose does it serve for you to see them?

For the Truth? Truth isnt reality lots of people here on DU make up their OWN truths
to satisfy their own SICK facination with distorted reality
just cruse over to the 911 thread and view the tin foil hat crowd that dont know a dam thing about
what happens during building fires.

There are LOTS of things your NOT ENTITLED to see or read in the governement every day. So what?!! Who cares
move on with life.

[JDPriestly]

537. We need the whole truth in order to make our decisions about

who to vote for. This is supposed to be a representative democracy. At this point, our representatives mostly represent big business and the military, not those of us who vote for them.

Yes, we do have the right to see everything. These photos have nothing to do with foreign policy secrets or even military secrets since the events they depict took place years ago, supposedly. We are not negotiating with foreign powers about these photos. Our troops are supposedly not torturing anyone, nor is the CIA or any other American permitted to torture anyone.

We need to release the photos and bring criminal charges against the torturers, and we need to do it now. The best way to safeguard our troops is to prosecute all torturers, whether in our government or in foreign countries. Torture cannot be tolerated. It must be prosecuted everywhere in the world where it occurs. We need to make that clear. How can we expect Pakistan or Afghanistan or the Sudan to prosecute torturers if we refuse to do it? Letting torturers know that they will be prosecuted if they torture is the only way that we can rid the world of torture.

Torture is the tool of dictators. Only dictators and thugs torture. So much for Bush and Cheney -- torturers, that's what they are.

[OhioChick]

60. "You can't handle the truth"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbfTFTf9n-0

[sabra]

5. because the Cheneys are controlling the message - if the photos

are released we will "embolden the terrorists" :-(

[bdamomma]

206. .........................

I can hear him saying that, I wish cheney would just go away.

[MADem]

Probably because they're disgusting beyond belief, and will serve to undo all the work he's

done to date.

Just a guess. I have no earthly idea if that's not it.

[John Q. Citizen]

41. Because government always lie, and always try to block information to their people. It's the same

old same old.

Governments also always have excuses ready about why they always lie and always attempt to block information.


That's the whole reason for the constitution, the bill of rights and rule of law. Because the founders knew that whether some future President was named Obama or bush or had a D or an R behind their name that governments always lie and always try to block information, eventually or from the get go.

I hope Obama fails to block these photos and I hope he fails big.

[MADem]

49. I don't think that all governments lie. This position is not a "lie." It's an

unwillingness, for whatever (national security, the "disgust" factor, you name it) reasons, to share details of a truth that we all already know.

I'm guessing the request to attempt a block came from DOD, though I don't know that for a fact.

We'll have to see what happens, I guess.

[No Elephants]

103. Regardless of whether the request originated with Obama or with the DOD

[MADem]

214. I don't think he's trying to shirk responsibility. If he were, we'd know for sure

who was the person who put forth the argument that the President signed off on, and that person would be getting all the finger pointing.

[lsewpershad]

106. Not good enough

[MADem]

209. What's not good enough? nt

[atreides1]

343. Lying by omission

Is still lying!!!!

[MADem]

503. No one's "lying."

Not providing picture attachments to a completed investigation isn't lying.

[Old Codger]

357. Depends on

How you define lie,if he is not lying At this time then he was lying during the campaign when he said he would be open and transparent,of course we all know that no one is expected to keep "campaign" promises don't we? This is not the first reversal and I doubt it will be the last. What it really comes down to is "politics as usual" different names same old shit.

[rhett o rick]

414. Please see response 383 near the bottom. nm

[GoCubsGo]

465. Too bad they didn't count on the Australians...

They published some of the photos in the Sydney Morning Hearald. You can see them here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/photos-us-doesnt-want-seen/2006/02/14/1139890737099.html

Click on the "Related links...Photos: More snaps from Abu Ghraib" under the photo. I could only stomach about the first five. I can understand why President Obama didn't want them released. They are enough to infuriate everyone except the rethuglican haters, who probably get off on this kind of thing. I can only imagine how some of the Muslim extremists feel...

[Seldona]

492. So some of them are out there anyway?

Than this would seem to be more of a domestic ban then. Unless somehow they think their being published in Australia won't spread to other parts of the world? That just seems silly.

[AlbertCat]

50. I hope Obama fails to block these photos and I hope he fails big.

Perhaps he means to.

[saigon68]

119. He's beginning to turn into "Bush-Lite"

No prosecution of the CIA terrorists now this.

the guys who shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums(until they screamed) are dancing for joy

[LibertyorDeath]

344. "Bush-Lite" indeed

It's pretty sickening to watch this unfold like this.

"No prosecution of the CIA terrorists now this.

the guys who shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums(until they screamed) are dancing for joy"

Seymour Hersh talked about this on Charlie Rose a few years back
he had heard the tapes and seemed completely shaken and disgusted
by it all.

I'm sure there are Americans that believe torturing Children
in a vain and futile attempt to get the mythical
"actionable intelligence" is a necessary evil.

There must be because that's what Americans did to these kids.

It makes my blood boil....

[Butch350]

440. Are you catholic?

[defendandprotect]

195. The courts have stood up for more than a year to get them released . . !!!

Let's hope they continue to stand up for truth and justice ---

Cause, if this stuff doesn't swiftly bring justice, I don't know what could!!!

[JuniperLea]

349. "Perhaps he means to"

That very well could be. He's pretty slick, thankfully.

[tabasco]

497. This is not being slick, it is being stupid.

Obama has lost a great deal of my confidence as a result of this - if it is indeed his decision.

[JuniperLea]

539. I'm not so easily swayed

I'm basing my opinions on what I've seen from him, not from what I want. I don't have all the details, he does. I'm not privy to information that would allow me to understand what the options for him are, nor do you. I prefer to give him a little time, let the story unfold, and have a little faith that he can turn this one around too.

[Grinchie]

365. I think he will be unsuccessful, or if he succeeds, will destroy his Political capital

The Political Capital that was allocated to him by the Corporations and the Invisible Hand that really runs the Government and the Economy.

This is just more of the same in the vein of Fisa, Withdrawl, Bank Bailouts, DLC allegiance, etc.

[Butch350]

438. Could care less.

[greiner3]

86. I believe that the two issues are separate;

And the President does not want them to be lumped together. Prisoner abuse could be lumped together with torture, however in this case he may want to prove that torture was systematic and pervasive from bush to the cia bastards that did the beatings. Prisoner abuse may seem just as it's depicted; seemingly random acts by republicans who have multiple issues.

Just saying!

[Grinchie]

377. The real issue is that the Torturers were Corporate Contractors in many cases.

This fact seems to be lost on many people, and this fact is documented quite cleary in the film, "Iraq For Sale: The War Profiteers".

The films interviews many people that were involved and it paints a pretty clear picture that Contractors had a large role in the abuse of prisoners. So one may think that Civilian contractors would be innappropriate in the extraction of sensitive intelligence, but that is exactly what was done. The Contractors also were highly profit motivated, and were not subject to the UCMJ. They basically had free reign to arbitrarily choose victims for their abuse and torture.

There is one interview in the film of an Iraqi that was "Processed" in Abu Ghraib. He relates that he was stripped naked and then several Soldiers urinated on him simultaneously. He was very calm and composed as he related his thoughts of "What's the reason for doing this?"

After watching the film, one gets the impression that the intent was to hide behind the skirts of Corporate law, as written in the 1700's that states that Corporations are extensions of the monarchy and cannot commit any crimes. This plank of Corporatism basically stands intact today, because it shields corporations from their responsibilities to respect basic rights of humanity.

One can see this behavior in predatory business practices in the civilian sector as well, such as the incredibly harmful Tobacco industry, where they can continue to kill people with cigarettes, and then blame the the physical addiction to nictonine as the result of an Americans "Freedom to Choose". It's all Bullshit.

The Corporation are so big that even if we wnated reform, the big corporations can blackmail the country in many ways, from triggering recessions, shortages, inflation, deflation, unemployment, healthcare, transport, etc. They can shut this Government down in a heartbeat if they so desired. I think this is what we are seeing these days. The Corporations are basically calling the shots, and Government is between a rock and a hard place trying to cope the best it can without collapsing.

[Cherchez la Femme]

507. And who do these contractors work for & take their orders from?

The buck does not stop with them, it follows up the chain as in anything.

Who is Obama protecting, and why?

[No Elephants]

99. The rest of the world probably knows more about this than we do.

[defendandprotect]

197. Absolutely . . . my sister's in Europe and she had seen torture photos before we did ....

[MADem]

220. The people who know are the people who have seen the images. NT

[diamidue]

369. Absolutely. This move is to shield the truth from Americans! n/t

[pnwmom]

147. That's my guess too. n/t

[The Hope Mobile]

324. That's got to be it. Seriously. I think he wants justice but it would destroy

any chance of our nation returning to any dignity and integrity in the eyes of the world.

[atreides1]

346. What???

And how does hiding the truth return our integrity and dignity???

If Obama hides the truth then he will show that this country has little integrity and less dignity.

[The Hope Mobile]

371. I hear and understand your point. I really do.

I just think that this is SO BAD - so much worse than we may want to know really, that we should use the pics in court to get these guys locked up but that if we put all those ugly visuals out there we are screwed as a nation. Maybe some. Maybe enough to get the tide of public sentiment to the point of realizing that what they did was obviously unnecessary but this could stain our country's reputation forever and whatever Obama does to try to heal the wounds between us and the rest of the world will be for nothing. I want the truth out and I want these guys to pay, I really do. But I think that there are plenty of individuals and countries out there who are leaning towards never forgiving us (whether consciously or not) and actively hating us that this could actually put us in a very unsafe situation.

Visuals have a hard core impact. I totally disagree with what they did but I think it would be easy for some to think of us as "the good Germans" no matter how bitterly we disagreed with what they were doing. We will always be thought of as in the same league as Nazi Germany and worse.

[Grinchie]

385. If thats the result, then WE MUST RELEASE the images.

The American people must see what was done in their name if they are ever to wake up for this alternate reality that is painted by the Mass Media, Government mouthpieces and paid corporate schills.

There are a great many of us who were kept in the dark, and we did not hide behind the skirts of a few bad apples such as Cheney and Rumsfeld. In fact, we were kept out of the loop entirely until people witnessing these atrocities could stand it no more.

Hiding ones head in the sand will not change the fact that these atrocities did occur. It's kind of like Income Tax. If you demand to see the law that requires an individual wage earner to fill out a 1040 Form, the IRS will refuse to produce one that unequivocally mandates this act. Filling out a 1040 for personal wages is Voluntary, not mandatory, but the IRS will coerce people with harrassment, confiscation of property, and abuse of the legal system to apply pressure.

Remember that the Torture memos were secret until just recently, and were never formally discussed with Congress or the American people. Neither was Fisa. Now that these memos prove that Tortue was initiated by the executive branch, it has to be revealed wherever it takes us, not matter how distateful that may be.

It's kind of like buying a beautiful house, and then one day you are planting roses and you dig up a bone that has a ring on it... Do you just ignore it or deal with the devastating reality that something awful has just been discovered.

[The Hope Mobile]

406. I'm not saying hide your head in the sand at all. We have to acknowledge

what happened completely. We need to prosecute and convict. BUT we don't need to add more negative images to the world's perception of us. Visuals will make things worse beyond a certain point. Release enough to get public sentiment in the right place to convict but some things are better left to the imagination. Some things can't ever be removed from the memory banks and those of us who didn't know and weren't responsible for their actions could pay a heavy price.

[Cherchez la Femme]

508. Thank you

for that comment.

These crazy excuses are mind boggling.
I bet if any Repuke --or the previous pResident-- did these things they'd say the same things. :eyes:

[nichomachus]

401. Well, that's certainly the message he's sending -- which is counterproductive

1. We've already seen enough photos to engender lots of anti-American sentiments.

2. Obama refuses to release other photos saying they will make things worse.

Ergo: The photos we're not seeing must be worse.

If I were someone inclined to have anti-American feelings, this is what I would conclude. So, I don't really need to see the photos to make me angrier.

Imagine that someone has shown you photos of your spouse or significant other having oral, anal and vaginal sex with your neighbors and a close relative in a orgy at your church. Then, they tell you they have other pictures, but they're not going to show them to you, because they're afraid they would piss you off. What are you going to think? Right.

[MADem]

502. If you were someone inclined to have anti-American feelings, being able to put

faces and names to abuse would make a bad situation worse.

You are perhaps not as familiar with the culture of martyrdom that is prevalent in the conflict region. I'm very familiar with it, and for this reason I agree with the decision of Obama.

We know what happened. These investigations are completed ones, and they make it plain what happened. I can do without illustrations, thanks, anyway.

Your example is not a good one. These are pictures of people who are alive, who have names and faces and lives that they've returned to, many of them. How is dragging their humiliation at the hands of brutes to the fore helpful to them, particularly in that culture? They've been compensated and moved on. You want to revisit this and make them an object of political martyrdom or curiosity at best, and ridicule (yes--in that culture, it's often YOUR FAULT if "the authorities" punish you, even wrongly) at worst.

Releasing the pictures don't change the results of these investigations. The investigations are completed already.

Releasing the pictures doesn't "prove" that BushCo approved this sort of stuff, because BushCo punished the people who did this stuff--this stuff was "over the line" for them. These are completed BUSH investigations.

It's voyeuristic, the desire to see these things. It doesn't move the ball down the field in any way at all.

[MADem]

549. They're not, worse, apparently.

Someone at the senior levels of the Pentagon say they are of the same level of offense as the Abu Ghraib pictures that we've seen already. That's not to suggest that it's "no big deal" but it's nothing we haven't seen already.

I do think a picture is worth a thousand words. There's already a spring offensive going on in both theaters of war.

Revisiting this situation with imagery will only make a bad spring offensive worse. I can understand why he's rethought this issue.

[dflprincess]

491. Yeah, that's why he was talking about the "few low level" people

who responsible for this and how they have been punished (clip was on Countdown tonight). I don't like Lynndie England, but I really don't she should take the entire rap for this.

Continuing to cover it up is way more apt to undo any good he's done rehabilitating the U.S. image and just show the world that the more things change the more they stay the same.

[MNDemNY]

534. Too bad, release them, or hire a special prosecutor.

[MADem]

546. To prosecute .... WHAT?

Perhaps you are unclear as to the origin of these pictures. They are from completed investigations, not ongoing ones.

There's nothing left to investigate with regard to these pictures. The people who abused those in the photos have had their day in court already. These are simply attachments to completed investigations--not ongoing ones.

And who prosecuted these individuals? The Bush administration. Years ago.

If you want to go after the Bush administration, these horrible pictures (which the Pentagon says are similar in tone, view and attitude to the ghastly Abu Ghraib photos) will not help the situation.

It's the Bush administration who meted out punishment to the people who did this stuff already.

To "get" the Bush people, you have to go after the people who crafted the guidance that allowed "enhanced interrogation" AKA torture (that the guards in the pictures exceeded), not wave around pictures of victims who have (or their families have) been compensated and likely do not want to be revictimized, or guards who have already been punished.

I do think we need to go after the people who wrote the guidelines that went over the torture line, but rehashing completed investigations isn't the way to accomplish that.

[MNDemNY]

561. Non e of those who directed this has been held accountable.

If you think this was all perpetrated by a bunch of NCO's , you are blind and stupid."Completed investigations"???? Obviously not.

[MADem]

562. You're completely unclear as to what the ACLU is asking for.

The ACLU request doesn't have anything to do with holding higher ups accountable. Further, I don't "think this was all perpetrated by a bunch of NCOs" and if you read my comments on this matter fully, along with the link I provided on this thread, without the urge to "post and not read" you'd realize that.

The ACLU's request is extremely limited. In this filing, they only want the pictures that were attached to specific COMPLETED (yes, your snark aside, "completed") investigations where the perpetrators have already been punished with punishments ranging from reduction in rank to imprisonment and fines. The ruling that the ACLU got from the courts only addressed those COMPLETED investigations at specified sites other than Abu Ghraib. Why don't you go read what the courts granted them? Then you'll have an idea what Obama stiff-armed them on, and you wouldn't have to be all snarky and faux-superior to me for reasons I can't fathom.

While you're getting angry and pissy at me about these photographs, you're ignoring the documents (like the Senate report that I provided a link to--all two hundred and some odd pages) that provide a very clear and unambiguous blueprint for a prosecutorial effort. These photos don't do that--the photos only illustrate behaviors that the Bush administration themselves found "unacceptable" and punished. That's hardly a basis for a prosecution. Without the people up the chain, you got nuttin'--and the four hundred some-odd NCOs were unable or unwilling, for whatever reasons, to point the finger at anyone before they were marched off to jail. There's a link missing--the NCOs can't or won't provide it. For that reason, one has to go UP the chain and see if there's a crack in the armor there. The Senate report is helpful in that regard.

But hey--be dismissive and uninformed--or, as you so charmingly call it, "blind and stupid." It's the New DU paradigm, I guess.

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. It would endanger US troops

[JonLP24]

29. Aren't they already in danger?

[Submariner]

44. They would be in a lot more danger

if enemy troops see what we did to their troops. They would be more incensed to kill our troops if the pictures come out now while we are in country. When the troops come home from Iraq and Afganland it would be more appropriate to release them for publication.

As much as i would like to see them to further lambaste the Bush junta, the reality is it would result in more U.S. tortured and killed.

[JonLP24]

53. There are plenty of photos of abuses already out there

They shouldn't of tortured in the first place if they are worried about it. Cheney is going around on a media tour saying there is nothing wrong with torture so I don't see the point. Sorry. I'm not much of a fan of government secrecy myself.

[kirby]

62. "their troops"?

The terrorists are not 'troops'. Troops wear a uniform and fight for a sovereign nation. If they were troops, they would be POW's. Some of them are enemy combatants while others were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Th1onein]

78. Oh bullshit!

WHATEVER they wear or don't wear, calling them "enemy combatants" justifies us treating them as less than human, including torture, and a complete stripping of their civil rights.

Obama doesn't want to release them because he doesn't want to prosecute the Bush torturers. If those photos came out, there would be one helluva outcry for the prosecution of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Rice, AND a few of the high-echelon military who instituted these torture programs.

The problem is, they think they've got it all under control right now, and they don't. These photos WILL be leaked.

And then they're going to look just as bad as the torturers, themselves, for trying to protect such barbarous acts.

[kirby]

88. Not bullshit, but law...

First off, nowhere in my post did I support or condone torture. I think it is not only despicable, but does not work. I also stated that I think there are more than just 'enemy combatants' at Gitmo. There are people picked up during raids (or turned in for rewards) and are stuck in a legal state of limbo because the bureaucracy does not care.

Second, there is a distinction within the law (also referred to by the Supreme Court in 1942), between POW and enemy combatants/unlawful combatants. This class of person is still not allowed to be tortured. They must face military tribunals rather than a civil trial per the law.

As far as whether Obama should release the photos, I think he should. He should demonstrate how Bush behaved and demonstrate how his administration is different.

[D23MIURG23]

228. Because bullshit and law are mutually exclusive...

:sarcasm:

[Iowa]

176. Thank you! Excellent post. nt

[msanthrope]

194. Funny--Washington's Army didn't have a uniform, and they

weren't fighting for a sovereign nation.

[montanto]

233. ?

[choie]

378. whatever they are called doesn't change what WE did

[No Elephants]

117. That something is your opinion does not make it "the reality." It is your

belief, that's all. And not a belief with which I agree.

Those in the Middle East have probably heard stories that are even worse than any of the photos--and fully believe all they've heard.

[patrick t. cakes]

124. they're not torturing enemy troops

they're torturing enemy "combatants"
and innocent people.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

199. Laughable.

The anti-secret secret! :think:

[defendandprotect]

201. This is the "appropriate time" for truth -- NOW. Further, we had no trials and have no idea. . .

if anyone of the 140,000 or more people who got dragged in -- sometimes sold to us

by bounty hunters -- were guilty of anything more of being in the wrong place at the

wrong time.

[napoleon_in_rags]

241. My question is, can't enemy troops read?

You said:

"They would be in a lot more danger if enemy troops see what we did to their troops."

Which would be one thing if it were a comment buried in the responses at DU. But the thing is I know the same comment is going to be stated all over the mainstream media, including media sources available to enemy insurgents. So why would they be less pissed off hearing that "what was done to them is too disgusting to see" than actually seeing it? I would follow that logic if it was stated behind closed doors, but the fact is it won't be. So what is there to hide?

[Grinchie]

395. What enemy troops? I don't see any uniforms on the insurgents

The only uniforms I see are those fitted on the Iraqi puppet government forces. This argument is such chicken hawk bullshit that it makes me sick. The troops know they are in harms way. I million Iraqi people dead and wounded are proof of that. The Soldiers signed up on their own accord, and if they disagree with what they are doing, they can ask to be discharged or become conscientious objectors. If they fell strongly enough about it, that what diffenece is it whether you are in harms way, ready to be killed at a moments notice, or are in a holding cell waiting for a court martial?

Watada did and succeeded btw, and I applaud him for his courage to do what was right for him. More people need to think about the ramification of their choices, and when they realize that they've been cheated, such as 5 consecutive tours overseas into a combat zone, while the criminals get off scott free and live out their retirement in impunity, then maybe only then will they see how naive they were.

The stage has already been created via stop loss, Blackwater and Contractor profiterring at the expense of Soldiers, and the destruction of the rules of the Geneva Convention which started this whole thing in the first place.

As a Veteran of the Cold War, I cannot imagine how anyone with any brain could actually go along with the Iraq War. It was such an obvious lie from the start that I'm amazed that the propaganda machine was able to coddle it into reality so quickly.

The whole system is dependant on the Cooperation of the people, and people are realizing that the methods used by Government to obtain their cooperation is a fraud. If the entire Military said, I'm taking a day off, the world would not come to an end. In fact, it would tell the Government that they have lost control and the people have woken up to the futility of war.

[fascisthunter]

436. .

[chrisa]

462. That's the biggest lie ever.

Do you really think that insurgents would say, "The US doesn't torture us, so we won't torture them?" Biggest load of bunk ever.

And how can they be more 'incensed' to kill our troops when they already do want to kill them?

[rhett o rick]

466. How do you know "They would be in a lot more danger"? They are at war and fighting

day by day. How does revealing the truth change that.

[JDPriestly]

538. The stories are already out there. The pictures almost trivialize this.

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. Why increase the danger if it is not necessary?

:shrug:

[JonLP24]

55. That's just a theory

The enemy already knows about abuses, we already have pictures of abuses and murder of detainees out there.

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. One that apparently the President subscribes to, upon consultation with his top military commanders

[JonLP24]

67. I guess we'll have to disagree

They already have a target on their backs. We did when I was in Iraq so I don't see any radical change. :hi:

[No Elephants]

131. They don't have crystal ball and are not infallible. OF COURSE, Bushco leftovers are going to

say anything they think will cause Obama to keep the photos under wraps. That does not mean they are right.

[saigon68]

185. Many of his "TOP COMMANDERS" are War Criminals

Who the fuck killed this Guy




Ya crickets

[Grinchie]

399. They don't want to release the image where this woman is rubbing her tits in his face.

Or maybe squatting over him and urinating on his corpse in full view of the other prisoners.

Yeah, I could see why they would not want to release those photos, but I think they should regardless, because it shows what a bunch of fucked up psychopaths Americans can be when they put their minds to it.

Sure, it would destroy the carefully crafted Hollywood imagery of the Chivalrous Americans save the day, probably cost Billions of dollars in revenue!

Sure, it would forced millions of dollars into renewed reaearch into the causes of this sort of neuroses in individuals. It would be worth it, because if these people exist, where they are able to do such atrocities under orders from their authority, then we have a big problem when they are released back into society and raise generations of similar psychopaths that we we have to interact with.

[Enthusiast]

152. Not of rape,

an especially egregious crime to the sensibilities of a Muslim populace (as it should be). The outrage would result in an increase in the deaths of U.S. military personnel.

[JonLP24]

170. Their are already thousands dead and maimed

Abu Grahrib had whatever you could ask for, murder, humilitian, torture, etc. It was the same then as it is now. As long as they are over there there will be attempts to kill them. However it is our media shielded us from things, over there you have the realities of war shown to them so there is already anger.

[No Elephants]

225. They know it happened in reality, yet have no desire to take violent action. However, if they see

a photo of what they already know, they will become violent. Is that the theory?

[No Elephants]

127. You're assuming that releasing the photos will increase the danger. It ain;t

necessarily so. The photos may be less bad than people will imagine if we insist on keeping them secret.

People know we've tortured. They know the photos exist. Now they know we don't want to release them. And they've already seen a good number of photos. And heaven knows, they've heard stories from detainees we released. What conclusions do you think they'll draw about photos we're desperate to hide?

[saigon68]

208. Child sodomy child pornography

Children anally raped in front of their fathers to get them to talk--- that's what

[JonLP24]

219. We don't know if that is true

I hear MSNBC telling me the photos are similar to Abu Gharib. Sure we can believe a source from somewhere but have they seen the pictures?

[saigon68]

231. Its in the Taguba Report.

CIA operatives shoved plastic flashlights up little boys rectums to get their fathers to talk.

[No Elephants]

242. It's already done and the information is already out there. The photos of it, if they exist, are

not going to make the difference between a violent and a nonviolent response to the data. Our attempts to shield and our insistence on not prosecuting, as we are legally obligated to do, however, might well do that.

[TankLV]

525. Use your fucking BRAIN - the PROOF has already been out there for YEARS now...!!!

But go ahead - keep your fucking head up your ass or in the sand...!!!

[No Elephants]

237. I can only refer you to Reply 225 and ask you to read Reply 127 again.

[defendandprotect]

203. Why have ILLEGALLY invaded Iraq when it was not necessary?

Didn't that "endanger our troops" . . . ??

[MilesColtrane]

274. It is necessary.

These were crimes committed under our flag and in our names.

Maybe Germany should have just plowed under the concentration camps and built farms on them?

Genocide and torture are two different crimes in their scope and severity, but both were perpetrated by a government and it's military and both against international law.

The difference is that Germany and it's people faced up to their crimes, and have begun to reclaim their humanity.

[Name removed]

392. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

455. Silly question, the Iraqis and the rest of the World

knows more about the war crimes, torture eg, committed by the Bush administration than the American people and the danger to the troops as a result of those crimes, has been ongoing and will not increase any more, according to some soldiers I know, as a result of a few more pictures. THEY LIVE with the victims, the women who were raped, the children who were tortured, the families of those who were tortured to death.

This is news apparently, only to the American people. Sy Hersch, John Pilger and other independent journalists wrote about these horrors years ago, and they got their information many times, from Iraqis themselves. Which, btw, was called BS until the Abu Ghraib photos emerged.

Otoh, the danger to the troops is likely to decrease if Obama makes sure that the guilty parties, Cheney et al, are held accountable for the injustices they inflicted on the Iraqi people. That will help more than anything.

The US sadly, is still arguing against the reality of the situation. The danger to the troops resulted from the crimes not the photos. When those crimes are addressed and the victims get some justice, that danger will decrease. That is what the world was waiting for when Obama was elected. It looks like the troops will have to continue to bear the burden of the crimes of their government. It's pretty simple, crimes were committed and they are being covered up, still.

[John Q. Citizen]

43. Pull them out. That would make them safe. Or is that asking too much?

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Yes, that is asking too much

[ronnie624]

63. Can you elaborate on your support of U.S. militarism? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. We need to stop the Taliban from retaking Afghanistan, and our withdrawl from Iraq needs to be

responsible and phased.

[John Q. Citizen]

83. So troops saftey isn't really that important. It's subordinated by our thirst for oil?

Except and until it comes to the free flow of information.

Then at that point troops safety is paramount?

Sorry, I ain't buying the crap you will.

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. Afganistan is not a major source of oil

[John Q. Citizen]

113. But it's right on the planned pipeline route from the Caspian Basin to the Indian Ocean

You do know what Karsai 's job was before we made him our puppet in Afghanistan, right?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

153. and as wrong as we were to into Iraq, the mess needs to be cleaned up responsibly now.

Big emphasis on the word "responsibly".

[JonLP24]

84. How long is that going to take and at what cost?

'Responsible and phased' just means less troops coming home and more troops going back.

[Mari333]

76. no its not. nt

[defendandprotect]

205. It's asking too much of those who profit from war -- and Patriot Act . . . etal . . .

[JackRiddler]

57. In which country? Do they have any business there? At home, they'll be safe.

[Freddie Stubbs]

66. Apperently the President believes that there is still work to do in Iraq and Afganistan

[Lydia Leftcoast]

More likely that he's been either cajoled or threatened into keeping the troops there

to do exactly what?

Every foreign intervention in my lifetime (with the possible exception of the Korean War) has caused more problems than it has solved.

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. Stop the Taliban from retaking Afghanistan and further destabilizing the region

[Lydia Leftcoast]

91. Oh, wait, they're already retaking Afghanistan

not to mention the fact that they grew out of the Mujaheddin fighters that Reagan mischaracterized as "freedom fighters," when they were actually Islamic fanatics who didn't know the difference between Communism and consumerism but who sure as hell didn't want their daughters going around with bare faces.

[Freddie Stubbs]

94. Would immediately withdrawing US troops hinder the Taliban retaking Afghanistan more than staying

there and fighting them?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

249. The Taliban are winning because the U.S. took money it could have spent

providing an economic base for Afghanistan and blew it in Iraq. Hence the incentives to restart the heroin trade, which finances the Taliban. (It would be much cheaper just to buy the poppy crop, sell it to drug companies, and destroy the rest.)

[defendandprotect]

211. STOP the Taliban from producing more heroin . . . oops . . .

America seems to love to sell drugs --

When Taliban was in control, production was being reduced --

When we took over, production has reached news peaks!

[Grinchie]

407. Perhaps you should change your Icon to that of the Norwegian Blue parrot Freddie

Are you cutting and pasting your one liner talking points from some other window open on your desktop?

You are nothing more than a parrot making no sense, stringing along a series is jingoistic points in order to apologize for this decision by the Government.

Refusing the release of the images is a blatant indication of the weakness America has, and hiding behind the troops yet again is another political ploy that you seem to embrace. It's disrespectful for the tropps, especially since the truth WILL come out eventually, and then it is likely that the Troops won't be able to deal with it rationally and create serious blowback.

The fact is that this cancer in our so called Democracy needs to be cut out, or it will grow into something that destroys our country.

You want to put makeup over the festering wound so nobody notices the damage.

[rhett o rick]

463. I wonder what the blue dog means for freddie. nm

[rhett o rick]

461. Right wing propaganda. Is this Sean Hannity? nm

[PassingFair]

496. DLC....n/t

[JackRiddler]

494. Modern domino theory.

As in Indochina, the force likeliest to push over the dominoes are the US aims and policies of war: as ever ill-informed, destabilizing, arrogant, duplicitous -- their variety of material interests cloaked in pious missionary ideologies -- profit-seeking, chaotic, murderous, imperialist, insane and ultimately self-destructive.

Too bad the realization of the last comes only after millions die, with twenty or one hundred brown foreign people killed for every precious US soldier. (Not counting the belated casualties of war injuries, PSTD, freak-outs and whatever poisons will inevitably come to be associated with this war.)

Do the reflexive geostrategists of unreal "realpolitik" and might-surely-makes-right never tire of being wrong, decade after decade? Of course not, because that's their job. So they seek out the next threat and the bloody merry-go-round starts again, and always there are those who will step up to help the inspiring new leader as he discovers new and better, more humane reasons to go to war.

Brzezinski was among the professors at Obama's department as an undergrad at Columbia. Figures.

But what's your excuse for identifying with the war machine rather than its victims, Freddie Stubbs?

[defendandprotect]

207. obama is locked into corporate-welfare . . . look at the $12 TRILLION in bailouts . . .

while he has insulted us by suggesting that we can afford corporate-welfare but

not Single Payer Health Care -- !!!???

[ima_sinnic]

295. yes, there's still soooo much $$$$$ to be made!

and so many annoying people in the way, all of whom need to be murdered so we can grab what we want.

[JackRiddler]

429. Certainly the Iraq occupation remains as illegal as it was on Day 1.

And your authoritarian bullshit cuts no ice. If the president's for war, he can kiss my ass.

[ShortnFiery]

74. B.S. It would air "the truth" and make sure that this does NOT happen AGAIN.

If we don't flush out the truth and seek accountablity, this WILL happen again. :(

[defendandprotect]

217. True . . . from the beginning this is true . . . from JFK coup, to MLK, RFK . . .

on and on -- Iran Contra, October Surprise, Savings & Loan Thefts & Embezzlements ---

Watergate and failing to hold Nixon responsible -- Ford Pardon was not only wrong,

it was wrong for the future of America.

Look at all the Iran-Contra criminals who came bounding back into government with W!!!

This has all permitted fascism -- and corporate-fascism -- to invade America . . .

slowly -- from the time of Operation Paperclip --

[No Elephants]

259. And even if it doesn't, the world will NEVER forgive us.

[Zhade]

423. Conservative cowards like him aren't interested in the truth.

NT!

[The Hope Mobile]

77. You're absolutely right. I want the truth out there as much as anybody

and I think they should be used as evidence in court but this really would have the impact of making the world's hatred of the US skyrocket. Sodomizing children, which we already know about, is unconscionable in any culture. Imagine the things we don't know about yet. I think Obama is thinking of the impact on our troops and he's right about this. Some of this really needs to be handled delicately. What matters is that these guys pay for their crimes. Maybe they could leak it to FOX and Limbaugh types, who would never put it on the air but they might just STFU?!? That would certainly be a pleasant/positive response to such heinous behavior.

[No Elephants]

273. If I simply know for ccertain that you sodomized children, I can be calm. But, show me the picture

and that is going to make all the difference. I live with the fact that you did it without acting out, but seeing the photo will make me kill you. Is that what some people are this thread are saying? If so, I don't believe it for five seconds.

[The Hope Mobile]

308. No, they have tapes of children being sodomized. This was posted

here on DU yesterday. (Not the tapes). What I am saying is that if we know that they did that, my guess is that was just scratching the surface and that things were much uglier than that and I don't think that means that the average person will kill Americans as a result of that knowledge . . . but some people who aren't as stable will be pushed over the edge by the visuals.
Visuals always have a more profound impact. They are very capable (and have a history) of changing public sentiment toward or against. Bush used pictures of 9/11 to get the people to unite behind them. That's why Gore uses slides in his presentation. Anti-abortionists use pictures of fetuses after a D & C. Screaming, bleeding, running asian children, black hoods, white hoods, lynchings and burning crosses, the depression era woman with her children, all of these were/are used to make an emotional connection with the people involved.
I don't think its just about "killing Americans" as a direct/immediate result but I think that its an ugly seed in the back of the heads of people who are already livid with what the BFEE has done for the last 8 years. My concern is that seeing things profoundly worse than sodomizing children puts us in such a horrific light as a country . . . one that those who are looking for justification or who just have poor control over their emotions or limited intellect (like most of the GOP) will use as their last straw and/or will perceive as representative of Americans in general and that the perceptions of the US will be irreversibly damaged like when people started seeing what was really happening in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.
It took Germany decades to start recovering from those perceptions. Even if we were totally against it we will be perceived as the "Good Germans". My husband has family of German descent and they were devastated when this all came out.
Why doesn't most of the world like us already? This will put a permanent negative image in the back of their minds and draw a much closer connection between Americans and "evil". That connection will have the backlash of revenge by people who were already leaning in that direction. Not you or me.
You don't have to "buy" it but it wouldn't hurt you to consider that there are people in the world who are very capable of using this as an excuse.

[marshall]

87. Then so be it

Patrick Henry and the founders were willing to say "Give me Liberty or give me death!" They had ideals they were willing to die for.

[No Elephants]

115. No. Torturing endangers US troops. We've done it for years and the whole world

already knows about it--probably more than we know about it.

[mikelgb]

120. Wow, even a computer could never be programmed to be as consistent.

[The Stranger]

125. Then hold the torturers accountable for endangering the troops.

Next question.

[defendandprotect]

200. Actually, it would FREE our American troops to use conscience/common sense . . .

their sense of justice -- and that's no good for a military that needs to teach

hatred for the enemy -- !!!

[Grinchie]

412. It is clear the Conscience or Common sense are frowned upon in today's military.

Just take a look at the huge increases in convicted felons being admitted into the military. Just look at the epidemic of Suicides in today's military, and you can see that something is terribly wrong.

There is a great repression of the most common functions of life in the Military, and the increasing prosletyzing by the Religious insurgents trying to manipulate the troops into focusing their conflict is not working.

I was a Soldier once, and I am always proud of remembering what a cohesive team of people working together can do when driven by a just and honorable goal. However, when that goal becomes contradictive, such as torturing random iraqi's, or gunning down whole neighborhoods on orders from some distant commander, something breaks down. It just becomes a mechanical job, a grinding, unpleasant job, with no real outlets for the unpleasantness experienced day in and day out.

Todays military depends on conforming, repressed followers. Independant free thinkers are not allowed, because they'd walk off the job like Watada.

[defendandprotect]

456. Thanks -- fantastic post . . .

I was a Soldier once, and I am always proud of remembering what a cohesive team of people working together can do when driven by a just and honorable goal. However, when that goal becomes contradictive, such as torturing random iraqi's, or gunning down whole neighborhoods on orders from some distant commander, something breaks down. It just becomes a mechanical job, a grinding, unpleasant job, with no real outlets for the unpleasantness experienced day in and day out.

Todays military depends on conforming, repressed followers. Independant free thinkers are not allowed, because they'd walk off the job like Watada.


:)

[PassingFair]

498. Or get shot 4 times in the FOREHEAD by their own side...like Pat Tillman. n/t

[Dinger]

224. Well, That Sounds Familiar (nt)

[rhett o rick]

382. Wrong. That is a bullshit reason. We already did the shit, our troops are already in danger.

The enemy knows what we did, the only people that don't are the gullible American public.

[ohio2007]

400. But it will be the Iraqi and Afghan and Pakistan civilians" that will pay the price of increased vio

It's a safe bet more civilians will be in the wrong place when the 'freedom fighters'< strike in the open air market,bus stops,employment lines, funeral/wedding processions, etc.[br />People at Iraqi body count" are keeping score.

[rhett o rick]

404. If telling the truth puts people in danger, so be it. To hid the truth on the pretense it makes

people safer is bullshit. It is what fascists say. "you can't handle the truth". It may cost, but there is no other way.

[nichomachus]

402. How so?

We've already seen enough pictures to piss off the pope. So, is Obama saying that the unreleased pictures are worse? Yeah -- that's going to help.

[PassingFair]

445. Not prosecuting the torturers and the ones who gave the orders is what will endanger our troops...

The whole world KNOWS we did it.

The cabal must be tried for war crimes
so that the world will see that we DO NOT
condone these "activities".

Refusing to reveal the evidence does
NOT make it any safer for our troops.

That is LUDICROUS.

[rhett o rick]

460. EXACTLY. nm

[earth mom]

510. Which is why torture should NOT have happened in the first place.

* & Cheney knew that what they authorized would endanger the troops but they green lighted it anyway because they are sociopaths.

The damage has already been done.

US troops are already endangered.

[TankLV]

524. BULLSHIT! The TORTURE ALREADY 'endangered" the troops!!!

The PHOTOS did NOTHING - they are just "THERE"!!!

If the "troops" and every fucking person so fucking "concerned" now with those "troopts" were SOOOO "CONCERNED" - THEY SHOULD HAVE NOT RESORTED TO TORTURE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

IT'S THE FUCKING TORTURE, NOT THE FUCKING PHOTOS, THAT HAVE ALREADY ENDANGERED OUR "TROOPS"...!!!

[Old Coot]

33. "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."

According to one official, "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30725189/

[newspeak]

56. hasn't that already happened

with Abu Ghraib? Do you think the photos at Abu Ghraib made a great recruitment tool or the people in Iraq already knew what was going on? How stupid can you be to endorse torture, taking the lower ground? Some in the ME already stated that it was our use of torture that made them decide to go against the US. If we don't prosecute, will the US go down a slippery slope of further atrocities foregoing the rule of law? What keeps this country looking like any other third world Banana Republic? Hell, we were almost there. Fraudulent elections, controlled media, knuckle dragging hate-spewing mouthpieces, complete power of the executive branch (one party controlling the judicial, executive, and congressional, corporate power over the will of the people.

[No Elephants]

156. Invading and occupying Iraq and torturing put a bullseye on the backs of our forces. Photos are

merely pieces of paper.

[rhett o rick]

421. Are you even daring to suggest that not revealing the pictures will make the troops safer?

Think about it for a minute. Our troops are in danger because we allowed our government to do horrific things in our name. If you want to sweep it under the rug, you are as bad as the republiCons. Never again.

[Jackpine Radical]

59. My personal theory is that some of the photos show

Pelosi & Reid on a Gitmo field trip, using cattle prods on detainees.

[Soylent Brice]

390. certainly plausible. shit, everything else is fucking bizarre enough today.

[gorfle]

101. Here's why he's doing it.

It's simple. Doing this will fan the flames of outrage against the past administration hugely. HUGELY. When pictures come out of children being sodomized in front of women, as is rumored, all hell is going to break loose.

So instead of concentrating on the running of our government and pulling our economy out of the crapper, our government is going to get wrapped up in a huge, huge, huge investigation.

He doesn't want to deal with scandal right now. He doesn't want to be the president that concentrated on criminal prosecution of things already done when there are things that need taking care of right now.

Personally, I say, "too bad". Prosecute.

[hamsterjill]

172. I think your explanation is correct.

But I, too, want there to be prosecution.

Obama wants to try to have everyone look forward, not backward. That's a lofty ideal.

But I'm not sure we can effectively GO forward without properly examining the last eight years. If anything, we need to learn from those atrocities and put permanent laws into effect that prohibit torture from ever happening again - regardless of WHO sits in the oval office.

[saigon68]

196. of children being sodomized

Little boys screaming in agony as their anuses and rectums are savaged by CIA beasts

"see the Taguba Report"

[defendandprotect]

221. By the way, where does the CIA get troops that would do such things . . .????

Are they finding natural Sadists or training them?

[Javaman]

288. Yes. nt

[defendandprotect]

326. Frightening thoughts when you begin to think about it -- !!!

I'm convinced we've had sadists running government the last 8 years!!!

[Javaman]

342. I try not to, it gives me night terrors.

There are things out there that are beyond rational thought and fall outside the confines of sanity.

[defendandprotect]

446. I understand, however . . .

As I began to read about the Third Reich -- I, too, questioned it --
and people told me "if you could understand insanity, you would be insane."

However, there were answers . . .
Hitler was in large part - by his own admission -- imitating the Catholic Popes --
only he was going a step further in final annihilation.
Europeans had been saturated with anti-Jewish propaganda long before the Nazis
began its use.
After the forced release of Jews from the Vatican ghettoes -- where they were barred from
professions, employment -- and even barred from associating with the rest of society --
forced to wear yellow stars which Hitler also copied -- the Vatican began a 100 year
propaganda campaign against the Jews. The Vatican naturally had wide journalistic
capabilities - wide networks for disseminating information.

There are many other reasons -- but if one fails to seek truth and answers, one is
defeated before you even begin.


I'd recommend . . .
"The Rise of the Fourth Reich" by Jim Marrs
"The Beast Reawakened" by Martin A. Lee
"The Secret War Against the Jews" by Aarons . . .
this is kind of a misnomer because the book deals with so much else --
and
"Crusade" -- by James Carroll
Your library will have all of these books if you are interested.

:)


Howard Zinn also repeats this often -- which I try to blungeon myself with as often as
possible . . .

"Sentimentality without action is meaningless."

That's why I so much hope the material is released -- all of this can only serve to more
strongly wake up the American public and get them moving.

[Javaman]

505. one my many hobbies is reading history as well....

prepping the population and making them numb to torture or making it a "common" thing is what scares the living crap out of me.

Thanks for the recommendations, I will add them to my already gigantic list of things to read. :)

I'm in the process of reading Armageddon. It's a book on WWII. Deals with the battles and for the first time, each of the battles discussed has an after action like summation. interesting stuff.

but earlier this year I read, "Stalingrad", my god, what a truly epically horrifying siege and out right massacre of the Russian population. Not only were the Nazi's killing the Jews and basically all other ethnicities, handicapped peoples and people not of the christian religion in the concentration camps, this book points up the basic blighting of whole towns from the face of the earth when the Germans invaded Russia.

I go through "waves" history. I did a long study of the cold war for many years, mixed in some WWII. Then I moved on to just WWII. Now, I believe my next wave is beginning with the dark ages, more succinctly on the Crusades.

In the end, after reading so much of the horror humanity has cursed upon this earth, I can't help but come away with the feeling that we haven't learned much from our failings. It's just the techniques and procedures that have been updated, but the pain and misery remains the same.

Achilles once made an incredible remark when laying siege to Troy, "humans are wretched creatures".

Peace. :)

[defendandprotect]

512. "Man's Inhumanity To Man" . . .

Weird that I rarely get into the book section here --

My one regret is that on my first trip to the library at age 6, the librarian showed me
only FICTION!

I do very much agree with this . . .

"prepping the population and making them numb to torture or making it a "common" thing is what scares the living crap out of me."

In fact, as I understand it, the main purpose of torture is to frighten and intimidate all of society.

Wars aren't a subject I'm interested in, mainly. Though I do recall reading a book a few years
ago on our massacre of Koreans. I will look for "Stalingrad" when I'm next in the library, tho
not exactly my usual reading.

I go through "waves" history. I did a long study of the cold war for many years, mixed in some WWII. Then I moved on to just WWII. Now, I believe my next wave is beginning with the dark ages, more succinctly on the Crusades.

They say that everything is a circle and it doesn't matter where you start. I found that to be
true in my reading . . . one book leads you to another.

In the end, after reading so much of the horror humanity has cursed upon this earth, I can't help but come away with the feeling that we haven't learned much from our failings. It's just the techniques and procedures that have been updated, but the pain and misery remains the same.

Certainly, I've had to conclude that there is something grossly wrong with our species.
Maybe we're hybrids? Maybe our pollution of the planet and our violence have done damage
to our minds? Certainly the patterns of violence repeat regularly.

I noticed in the stores recently that the PEACE symbol is back -- mainly in jewelry for women!

I think Father's Day should be rededicated as an anti-war day as Mother's Day was intended to be!

Maybe we'll chat again in the book section here sometime?
Meanwhile, if you come across any hot new non-fiction, let me know - !!




:)

[Bluenorthwest]

333. And they have been given blanket immunity

to come coach Little Leauge teams across America.

[rhett o rick]

470. And are they going to release these sadists into the public? nm

[saigon68]

522. Where you ask--- Look around

What did Lt "Rusty" Calley do?

crickets

[chrisa]

464. America, Fuck Yeah!

The world's greatest beacon for Democracy.

The epitome of Christian morals.

[BelgianMadCow]

408. I hear you. And heh well rescuing the economy is no job for the DOJ

(wait, maybe it is) so I'd say prosecuting war crimes and dealing with the economy can be done in parallel.

[Enthusiast]

114. Because we don't wish to undermine Cheney's

credibility. Someone might get the idea that raping didn't produce actionable intelligence. We can't have 'wrong thinking'.

[defendandprotect]

222. Exactly . . . this would be the proof of how insane and sadistic Bush/Cheney regime has been . . .!!

[Enthusiast]

376. Insane and sadistic is right.

They are like some comic book Nazis, or something.

[defendandprotect]

439. You might have missed my post . . .

where I mention that the CIA funded right wing Senators/Reps . . .
two mentioned were Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerald Ford; the latter having
done considerable damage with his presence on the Warren Commission in keeping
the coup on JFK covered up.

The CIA saw no difference in taking money from the KKK or Nazis -- in fact, the
CIA was founded with ex-Nazis brought in by Allen Dulles under "Operation Paperclip."
Pat Buchanan and others - Jesse Helms -- were among those who received these funds!

So . . . yes, the Nazi movement was not snuffed out -- it simply moved on --
and Allen Dulles -- Chair of the Warren Commission -- and fired by JFK after the Bay
of Pigs fiasco -- originated that program and founded the CIA with these ex-Nazis and
also put many into the FBI.

[Enthusiast]

517. Fascists torture. nt

[Dinger]

234. I THink That fucker's running in 2012

Don't doubt it. he's been all over t.v., for no earthly reason. Something is up. he'll announce 18 months from now. I want someone with a backbone.

[24601]

454. Because now it's his responsibility to safeguard the troops n/t

[Hepburn]

2. I am watching MSNBC....

...WTF is up with that?

[mike_c]

4. same as it ever was....

:grr:

[EFerrari]

17. I wonder. Can he block the release or is this an innoculation against

the right wing talking point "you're putting the troops at risk"?

[Arrowhead2k1]

6. Oh fuck that. What are we, fucking babies?!

[Aviation Pro]

10. After reading the Esquire article, Idiot America.....

...no, we're just idiots.

[villager]

8. Lovin' all the "change!"

n/t

[Peregrine Took]

253. Me, too! "Yes We Can"...fall in love with slogans and act like Bush-lite!

YES WE CAN!

[Butch350]

447. Don't give up your dam job...etc.

[notadmblnd]

9. How did they get to him?

is there dirt somewhere in his history that they could be using to coerce him?

[defendandprotect]

226. Well, either they're threatening his life OR . . . this is false loyalty to torturers . . .

[bagrman]

245. He was always theirs.

[Peregrine Took]

262. He's fallen into the trap of listening to the "grey beards" Gates and Petraeus

and others.

I heard this scenario predicted on the Bill Press show when Obama was first elected and now its coming true.

[Abq_Sarah]

372. Trap?

President Obama campaigned on listening to his Generals and weighing their advice.

[rhett o rick]

458. So, he also campaigned on transparency. nm

[newspeak]

482. well, we know those generals are not his generals

most of the generals with a conscience, a sense of honor and plain common sense were let go because they didn't believe in what the * junta planned to do. Ya'll remember when we had the general purges--Shinseki was one. Let's see there's the general purges, the CIA purges. Now, ya'll don't really believe that these generals are his generals or most of these CIA agents are his?

[freddie mertz]

368. Maybe a pod, placed under the bed?

Do we need any more proof of the poison that is Washington?

[Grinchie]

420. Its called, you better not or we crash the world economy

Starve the masses, cause fuel supplies to dry up, layoff millions of workers in "Cost Cutting Measure" and generally shit on Obama's world.

I hope he calls their Bluff and lets them attempt it.

[Butch350]

448. NO! He's fucking doing what best for the country lame ass!

[montanacowboy]

11. Obama Admn says releasing photos

will put a big target on the back of our servicemen

HEY, OBAMA, ALL THE WORLD KNOWS ABOUT THE PHOTOS ALREADY

RIGHT TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNMENT AND CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN

I AM GETTING PRETTY SICK OF THIS SHIT

[Enthusiast]

123. Didn't releasing the first bunch of

photos fuel the insurgency? I mean, wasn't that when it really took off with IEDs killing U.S. servicemen every single day?

[No Elephants]

179. No. Our actual actions--invasion, occupation, torture-- fueled the insurgency.

The Abu Ghraib photos were a lot more of a shock to us than they were to the people of Iraq.

[Grinchie]

426. You don't think the Iraqi's knew about it first hand?

Are you so stupid?

The photos only alerted the Americans what was going on in their name. It had nothing to do with the realities experienced by the unfortunate Iraqi'a that were swept up in this crime and subsequntly released to tell the story of their experiences to friends and family.

Use your atrophied brain and start thinking.

[Enthusiast]

519. Thank you for such kind words, Grinchie.

[defendandprotect]

227. NO -- photos don't do that -- ACTUALLY TORTURING PEOPLE DOES THAT . . .

[ima_sinnic]

292. so, emperor O, bring the troops home! problem solved! DUH!

oh, I forgot! those 30 pieces of silver are conditional on maintaining a constant state of mayhem, murder, TERROR, and warfare so all the bloodsuckers' bank accounts will stay fat and full of taxpayer dollars.

fuck you and your "change" BULLSHIT. And you can take your "constitutional scholar" CRAP and shove that too.

[Butch350]

450. What worse...hearing about your sister getting her ass kicked or a picture of it?

[sabra]

12. Reuters Breaking: OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/WBT011235.htm


OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS, FEARS WOULD P
13 May 2009 16:49:25 GMT
Source: Reuters
OBAMA OBJECTS TO RELEASE OF DETAINEE ABUSE PHOTOS, FEARS WOULD PUT U.S. FORCES AT RISK--US OFFICIAL

[Hepburn]

15. Dear POTUS:

The world already knows. Doing something about it is what will make our soldiers safer. Hiding it? The opposite effect.

JMHO

[Downwinder]

39. US OFFICIAL, very authoritative source.

[ChiciB1]

13. I'm Beginning To Think "Change" Is Just A Word That Got TOO MUCH

attention! I'm not feeling well today, but as I skip through these threads, the knot in my stomach just swells.

I've got to leave for now! It's TUMS TIME!

[glitch]

48. Chump Change.

a term some of us older timers are familiar with.

[CrispyQ]

356. Change . . .

[Grinchie]

434. This is exactly why Obama needs to be careful. His status quo

and Nostalgic re-enlistment of the DLC is frightening to say the least, particularly because the DLC is bought and paid for by the Big Corporations.

We are not going to get change until we boycott the big corporations and force them to become good citizens, but it's way too late for that. They own washington with all the monopoly money they wield in order to shape policy for their own benefit.

[LostinVA]

14. Quel Surprise

[ronnykmarshall]

188. PUMA!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[mikelgb]

16. This is what we all voted for. STOP WHINING!

[chimpymustgo]

254. NO. This is NOT what we voted for.

[Abq_Sarah]

373. Actually, it is

Obama promised to listen to his Generals when it came to waging war and protecting the troops.

[Grinchie]

435. The Generals AKA Military Industrial Complex, are wrong.

[Abq_Sarah]

474. And you are qualified to say that because.....

Why should Obama trust your opinion over theirs?

[TheLastMohican]

535. The generals would be right

if they court-marshalled every m'f'ker who were resonsible for the torture in front of a firing squad.
That would be appropriate and that would show that they are actually in control of the situation.
As it stands - they are not in control, they are targets each and every one of them over there in Iraq. Hiding things has never solved a damn thing.

[Butch350]

452. Yes it is!

[Zhade]

430. I didn't vote for covering up war crimes.

Don't even begin to assume you can speak for anyone but yourself.

[AlphaCentauri]

18. may be it would lead to prosecutions if those pictures are released?

[FloriTexan]

193. The photos that were already released....

weren't sufficiently graphic enough to get the prosecution ball rolling? Show them all! Show the kids getting sodomized. Just pixelize their faces because we don't care about their faces. So what if the victims recognize themselves, or their mother or father recognize their bodes in the photos. Who cares about what they think. We care what happened to them and we can't do that without seeing the pictures. Don't they get that?!? :sarcasm:

[maddezmom]

19. ABC: President Obama Reverses Course on Releasing More Detainee Abuse Photographs

President Obama Reverses Course on Releasing More Detainee Abuse Photographs
May 13, 2009 12:45 PM

President Obama met with White House counsel Greg Craig and other members of the White House counsel team last week and told them that he had second thoughts about the decision to hand over photographs of detainee abuse to the ACLU, per a judge's order, and had changed his mind.

The president "believes their release would endanger our troops," a White House official says, adding that the president "believes that the national security implications of such a release have not been fully presented to the court."

At the end of that meeting, the president directed Craig to object to the immediate release of the photos on those grounds. In an Oval Office meeting with Iraq Commander General Ray Odierno, the president told him of his decision to argue against the release of the photographs.

The move is a complete 180. In a letter from the Justice Department to a federal judge on April 23, the Obama administration announced that the Pentagon would turn over 44 photographs showing detainee abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq during the Bush administration.


more:http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/05/president-oba-5.html

[villager]

21. fucking disgusting

n/t

[Baby Snooks]

23. Our enemies might hate us more?

Is it a matter of our enemies hating us more or our few allies liking us less? The world will rise up against us at some point. The way it rose up against Nazi Germany. But wave the flags and be good Germans.

[saigon68]

129. Like they don't already PS This guy's testicles are electrically wired

[saigon68]

169. dupe

[defendandprotect]

229. What Obama and torturers fear is us rising up against them -- !!!

[pauldg0]

366. Our friends will.....

...hate us now.

[CJCRANE]

35. That's how the BFEE gets away with it.

They do things so disgusting they know it can't be revealed for "national security implications".

[ronnie624]

37. "...But the president strongly believes

that the release of these photos, particularly at this time, would only serve the purpose of inflaming the theaters of war, jeopardizing U.S. forces, and making our job more difficult in places like Iraq and Afghanistan."

There's only one logical course of action: End U.S. imperialism, and bring all military personnel back where they belong.

[ShortnFiery]

105. End U.S. Imperialism

I can't believe that OBAMA is going to be "every the bit" of WARMONGER that LBJ was ...

THIS IS OBAMA'S VIETNAM. :grr: :nuke:

[mbperrin]

134. Yes, thank you. Put 'em on the planes and boats this afternoon.

And no, I'm not kidding. Never should have been either place in the first place.

[defendandprotect]

232. That's a load of BS . . . intended to keep imperialism going -- get out of Iraq/Afghanistan -- !!!

[Zhade]

432. PER A JUDGE'S ORDER -- you're not above the law, Obama.

"Change".

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Cowards

Hiding the facts does not undo what the agencies you now command did. Cover-ups make it worse, always.

[Xolodno]

22. How about the dignity of those who were tortured?

If those photos are released and lets say some of those prisoners are released to their home country...they may not be welcomed back. For example (albeit a bad one), what if one of them was photographed while being force fed pork? That may put a stain and stigma on that individual for the rest of his life. Why torture them even more? Save the photos for the judge and jury.

[Arrowhead2k1]

28. They could easily blur the faces of the innocent.

We simply need to SEE what our government was doing in those prisons. They need to release ALL OF IT immediately.

[ronnie624]

40. No thanks. I want the truth. n/t

[DJ13]

25. Yay! Now THIS is the "change" we voted for!

Same old crap, different party.

[jefferson_dem]

27. HaHa...

Making fun of supposed "change" not delivered.

That's (not) a new one.

[DJ13]

31. That's (not) a new one.

Apparently neither is this administration.

Sucking up to big money on Wall Street, ignoring the average American in health care, now this.

[cali]

26. time to raise a ruckus. this is not acceptable. fuck this.

[Grinchie]

441. I already have. It's called divorce from the American Capitalist system

This decision is the only thing we can do to indicate that we are not going to go along with this crap willingly.

We have to follow the models of Gandhi, Martin Luther King and other Pacifist resistors and refuse to serve the powers that abuse our trust, steal the fruits of our labor, and do things in our name that we do not agree with, or know about.

Armed insurrection will do nothing but cause chaos and hardship for innocents, and the government is too well equipped to be able to confront head on. We must all stand together and become less involved with the operation of their systems of governmnet until they can no longer function. They will pass laws forcing people to go to work, or prohibit certain actions in a move of desperation and attempt to coerce the general population to conform, but sustained resistance will cause them to capitulate.

They derive all of their powers on our cooperation, and once that disappears, they got nothing. There are simply more of us, and we are the ones that actually run the country.


For those of us that woke up to this fraud in the early 2000's we are already self sufficient. It is too soon to see how the millions of uneducated sheeple will react when they realize that we are losing our republic to the Corporate interests.

[BlueJessamine]

30. ACLU SLAMS:

“If it’s true that they’re reversing position, we find that wholly unacceptable,” ACLU attorney Jameel Jaffer told POLITICO. “It’s inconsistent with the commitment they’ve made to the court and its inconsistent with the promise of transparency that they’ve repeated many times both before the election and since.”

Jaffer said the ACLU had not been officially informed of the government’s change in stance, which he earlier called an effort to “renege” on the administration’s prior promise.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22470.html

[Hepburn]

36. Whatever is in those pics...

...must come out. Bad, good or indifferent, we the people have a right to know what was done in our name.

[FloriTexan]

218. Agreed, but it should come out in court, during court,

and not before. Showing these photos will make not keep it from happening again. There are bad actors and sometimes seeing these kind of pictures just encourages them, gives them ideas. You can also endanger a good prosecution case by releasing your evidence. We know these things happened because we can read reportingn on it, and reading it is bad enough. I do not need to see pictures before I am convinced.

[defendandprotect]

236. "Gives THEM ideas" . . . ??? WE attacked THEM . . .!!!

For those afraid to see truth - fine . . .

On the other hand, I think we need to see it and maybe we will get the shock of our

lives and WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

That's what they truly fear--!!!

[FloriTexan]

240. I'm talking about the perverts out there....

We already know the truth, we can read about it. I don't need to see pics to prove it. That kind of EVIDENCE should be reserved for a court of law, the Hauge if you will. I'm saddened that people need to see pictures of abuse before it is real for them.

[defendandprotect]

320. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Gonzalez . . . are "the perverts" . . .!!!

and exposing them and American policies is the best way to prevent thisfrom ever

happening again!

Who reads in America? Americans needs to see this evidence and wake up to the truth --

and, again, it is THE COURTS WHICH HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR YEARS TO RELEASE THIS INFO

TO THE PUBLIC!!!

[FloriTexan]

327. And they don't give a rat's butt...

I think its wrong to release the photos.

[defendandprotect]

330. The Courts are right in fighting to release this info -- America needs to see it--!

[FloriTexan]

335. Free child porn and snuff photos for the masses...

won't change a thing. Won't prevent a thing.

[defendandprotect]

339. YOU may see this as "porn" . . . but I doubt other Americans will . . .!!!????

[FloriTexan]

350. Definition of "porn" or "pornographic"...

Per American Heritage Dictionary - 1. "Sexually explicit material that sometimes equates sex with power and violence." 2. The presentation or production of this material."

Yep. I agree these pics would definately be considered porn. I bet others consider it the same as well. What do you consider porn?

[defendandprotect]

352. Few will see this torture as "sex" . . . they will see it as TORTURE . . .

And let's hope that's how you will also see it!!!

Some people see "porn" as love making tho it is abuse and degradation of females ---
and in many cases children!!!

Some people have some perverted ideas about sexuality and expression of love --
but I have faith that Americans will see this for what it is -- TORTURE!!!

[FloriTexan]

354. I did not refer to it as "sex" I refered to it as porn. It is porn.

It is abuse and it is torture.

[defendandprotect]

419. Your American Heritage definition: "Sexually explicit material that EQUATES sex . . . "

Again "porn" is simply a distorted, perveted view of normal human sexuality . . .

"Sexually explicit material that sometimes equates sex with power and violence." 2. The presentation or production of this material."

Anyone who would see "porn" or "sex" in torture is perverted . . .

And, again, how many replies on this thread .... I haven't seen anyone else suggest that
Any American would find sexual stimulation in films of torture!

[FloriTexan]

533. Fine.

Since no admits to it publicly then surely it never happens. I'm sure that's why there is no market for things like snuff films or child porn.

:banghead:

[defendandprotect]

553. Don't judge others by yourself . . .

Nor project your own views onto others --

[FloriTexan]

557. One doesn't have to be a pervert

to know they exist.

[Butch350]

457. Ain't that the truth!

[CrispyQ]

367. It's also the only way

that many right wingers will believe that these atrocities were actually committed.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[struggle4progress]

34. NYT: "... Robert Gibbs .. is set to take questions .. 1:30 PM ..."

May 13, 2009, 12:43 pm
Obama Tries to Block Release of Detainee Photos
By Jeff Zeleny
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/white-house-wants-a-delay-in-the-release-of-detainee-photos/?ref=global-home

[shanti]

212. key word: TRIES

we'll see...

[florida08]

38. according to the link Roon gave

According to one official, "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."

According to military officials many of the photos are similar to the infamous prisoner abuse photos out of Abu Ghraib prison, but some of these photos reportedly include mug shots of prisoners who appear to have been badly beaten during their capture or interrogation.

I heard this reported on my headphones will listening to Thom Hartmann..the report also said that judge had already ruled they be released so we'll see what happens.

[defendandprotect]

238. It's not the photos that put a "target on the backs of troops" . . .it's TORTURING PEOPLE . . .!!!

[Raksha]

317. Absolutely right!!!

Re It's not the photos that put a "target on the backs of troops" . . .it's TORTURING PEOPLE . . .!!!

[ima_sinnic]

282. gee, if they weren't over there to begin with, wantonly killing & torturing,

where would the "target" be?

as if those fighting the imperialist invaders don't know what kind of monsters they're fighting.

[CJCRANE]

42. Could they do a hard copy release at a controlled location?

How about some kind of exhibition where people are able to see them but not able to take copies?

That might be a good compromise.

[Phoonzang]

45. I'm sure this is heresy, but I was having doubts about the positive

impact of releasing those photos at this point in time.

[MADem]

54. It's not heresy. It's a POV.

You might catch some shit from some people, but not from me.

[blueclown]

51. Who the fuck cares what the President thinks.

Release the damn photos for the public good.

President Obama isn't a dictator.

[wileedog]

81. What "public good" will come frome releasing them?

We know the abuse happened, no one is covering that up. We know the photos exist and can probably guess what they are. Other than a whipped hysteria to prosecute an ex-president, which releasing these photos will do absolutely nothing to further advance, what possible "public good" comes from releasing photos of beat up people?

Will actually seeing the bruises and blood somehow give you more information than you have now?

Meanwhile backlash against the soldiers and against Obama's initiatives to reach out to the Muslim world are very real, very tangible effects. This is not the best time to highlight these abuses any further than they already have been on the world stage.

[blueclown]

107. The public good is the truth.

The truth should always prevail.

Backlash against the soldiers is just a right-wing talking point that Boosh's syncopants are throwing around so he can escape accountability and embarrasment.

[wileedog]

178. More platitudes

Again, what other good comes from seeing pictures of beaten detainees?

And even if you are willing to risk the backlash against the soldiers, Obama is planning a historic outreach speech in Egypt in less than a month. What good comes from graphically reminding everyone that we were beating up Muslims not to long ago even as we try to make peace?

What are we proving other than some crap about the "truth?" We know what bush did, why do you need the pictures so badly?

[fascisthunter]

198. why... to expose the truth so americans can judge for themselves

we don't live in a dictatorship... "What would the images do"... get real! You know exactly why they need to be released.

[wileedog]

239. We KNOW the truth already

Why do we need it graphically spelled out?

Look if we were exposing Abu Ghraib for the first time, or showing that abuse happened when other people were expressly denying it, I would agree with you. That's not what these photos are.

They are just more of the same. We know what happened. Does seeing it in all of its gory details - and creating more mistrust in the Arab world and more recruiting posters for terrorists - really make anything we ALREADY KNOW more or less true?

[blueclown]

263. We don't know the truth.

We do need it spelled out for us. In pictures.

How do you know these photos are just more of the same? Have you seen them? Do you have some special clearance as to where you are entitled to seeing these pictures?

[wileedog]

314. Multiple news sources have said they are further pictures

of Abu Ghraib and Afhghanisan abuse which have already been exposed and prosecuted. CNN said over 400 military personel have been disciplined for detainee abuse.

These are old crimes, not new ones, just with more photography.

And again, after starting the whole conversation with releasing the waterboarding memos, what possible otivation does Obmama have to start hiding evidence of new crimes now?

You don't need to see every single photo of every single detainee to know what happened.

[CrispyQ]

374. Maybe you know the truth,

but there are many right wingers denying that these atrocities happened. They try to justify water boarding by claiming that it isn't really torture, but if the photos depict the obscenities I've read about, there is no way anyone can justify or rationalize what was done in our name.

[TankLV]

527. Because "we" DON'T "know the truth already"!!!

That's why we need to release THESE photos!!!

People are still in DENIAL!!!

[MilesColtrane]

302. "Again, what other good comes from seeing pictures of beaten detainees?"

Hopefully, it shocks the American people into not allowing this to ever happen again.

A country that doesn't thoroughly and honestly acknowledge it war crimes breeds crazy, right wing nationalism. (See Japan, who only in the past 15-20 years has begun the debate on the extent of its criminal past.)

[gblady]

111. I have had....

serious misgivings about the release of the photos...

I will preface this by admitting I have a very sensitive make-up,
and visual images affect me greatly for long periods of time,
so even if they were released, I would not view them, for my own mental self care.

And, I have wondered just what would be the purpose in releasing them?
What good end would it serve?

[Hissyspit]

126. I don't know whether seeing the photos will give me more information than I have now.

Because I haven't seen the photos.

[wileedog]

181. And I'm sure Obama and the Admin have

ANd If there were truly something to reveal other than senseless violence, I'm sure he would release that information. He opened this can of worms releasing the waterboarding memos in the first place. If hiding the 'truth' from everyone is what he wanted so bad, he never had to open that door.

[defendandprotect]

243. We need an AWAKENED AMERICA. . . we need America to rise up . . .

if these photos helped wake up America, then they are valuable.

And that is the truth of why Obama doesn't want to release them -- because he

knows that they will enrage Americans. Iraqis are already enraged over the torture!!!

We had no trials -- presumably most of the 140,000 people we netted in were innocent of

anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time and sold to us!

We needed to torture people to connect Iraq with 9/11 -- falsely.

Again -- Arabs already know the truth.

Obama wants to keep Americans from knowing it and understanding what was actually done

in our name.

[TankLV]

526. It's called "catharsis" - only AFTER we confront the SINS of our PAST can we MOVE FOREWARD!!!

Until then, we are just trying unsuccessfully trying to MASK a FESTERING SORE - if we don't EXPOSE and CORRECT the ROOT CAUSE the problem, the PATIENT MAY DIE!!!

WE CANNOT "MOVE FORWARD" IF WE IGNORE PAST ATROCITIES AND WAR CRIMES!!!

[Butch350]

471. Your not a fucking dictator either.

[Hekate]

52. He'll be "forced" to let them out, like he's been "forced" to declassify the memos....

And he'll be laughing from inside the briar patch, the clever trickster, while the sun shines on all the ugliness of the Bush administration and Dick Cheney continues to unravel.

Just my guess based on Obama's trajectory so far.

Hekate

[Windy]

58. Very possible... as the judge has already ruled. However, I have always have misgivings about

releasing the photos in public as a former member of the military.

If their are to be prosecutions and/or investigations, they can be released "in camera"... (as in at the court under controlled circumstances)

[JenniferJuniper]

73. You could be right.

I hope you are right. Because something is going to have to happen here.

[John Q. Citizen]

96. My guess is releasing them will spur prosecutions. Covering up the crimes

will deter prosecution.

As a citizen I have misgivings about ordering troops to participate in an illegal war of aggression. If these photos serve to alert our population to just how illegal our invasion and occupation was and still is, that would be a great service not just to the country but also to the military.

The benefit would far outweigh the downside.

And I'm also loathe to subvert our open government in favor of a secret government for some temporary benefit.

[FloriTexan]

158. Yes, "in camera" release only.

I totally agree.

[defendandprotect]

246. If you truly want "change," then the public needs to know and to rise up --

and THAT is exactly what Obama is trying to prevent --

Iraqis already know what happened -- they've long known --

Americans need to know -- see the whole truth --

It is not photos which endanger our troops -- it is actually having TORTURED PEOPLE

WHICH ENDANGERS OUR TROOPS -- also long known!!

[Hissyspit]

64. I hope that's what's going on.

It's not a pony we're asking for, it's truth and justice and accountability.

[Hissyspit]

65. dupe nt

.

[AlbertCat]

69. Your guess stands on firm ground.

This move not only removes the White House and Obama administration far from the images, making it more evident this is a Bush Administration thing, it also reminds us just how bad torture was for the country and our troops and how ugly it all is. If they are not released right away, because they are dangerous to reveal, the imagination of what's in those photos can run amok. This could make them seem even worse than they are! Mainly this can be a reminder why torture is not to be used.

I'll bet they get released eventually.

[ShortnFiery]

79. I hope you're right and he's not just another Third Way Centrist ....

lest we're all screwed ... well, all BUT the illustrious Investor Class.

[Ilsa]

230. I was hoping this was some form of his "Rope-a-Dope" strategy to

get the Cheneys and Limbaughs and Rumsfelds to blab on and on defensively.

[D23MIURG23]

305. Its very possible, and part of the reason I'm not fuming that much.

He isn't coming off as over-eager to bring us closer to accountability, but he has done so at several points.

The real question is whether he is playing politics with us or the torture apologists.

[Mark Twain Girl]

311. Why? I hear this argument and it never makes sense - why? and why this?

The clever trickster? Why does he have to be deceptive about what he wants to do? It sounds like an emotional wish to me -- if you want him to have acted differently, you just claim that he has brilliant motives we just can't understand and then make up some reason why.

If he thinks Bushco committed war crimes, why not just say so?

He has said that he doesn't believe that the Bush admin commited grave crimes. Was he lying then? And lying now? And using right wing memes like "it will hurt the troops?" At the end of the day, it's all just... lies.

[Hekate]

364. Here's a link to the article that changed my mind forever about Obama's methods...

Perhaps it will help you see why I say what I do, or perhaps it will fall flat for you. But the more time goes on, the more I see President Obama's behavior through this lens. He wins in the end. He fulfills his promises in the end.

Obama seems to get most of what he wants by giving some of it up, I've noticed. But he doesn't give up much and he reserves the right to come back for it another day.

He plays rope-a-dope with his foes, according to Andrew Sullivan. It seems to be working on Dick Cheney...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/the-ropeadope-again.html
and the original
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article4925049.ece

Keep calling and writing your congresscritters -- that's our part in this dance.

Hekate

[RetroLounge]

68. Just more Change we can Believe in...

:puke:

RL

[HereSince1628]

70. Yep, Soooo, Let's talk about PUPPIES!

[ShortnFiery]

71. Welcome, My Son ... Welcome, ... to The Machine.

The Pentagon RULES Barter Town. :grr: :thumbsdown:

[Mari333]

72. well, we surely cannot jeopardize the OIL INTERESTS in Iraq and Pipelanistan

can we? we have to keep soldiers there to secure OIL CONTRACTS and CORPORATE INTERESTS. instead of BRINGING THE SOLDIERS ALL HOME, they would rather leave them there like so much cannon fodder to protect those HUGE pipelines and oil fields. because thats the only fucking reason we are in either of those goddamned places.
so Obama chooses to leave the soldiers there and not release the photos because it might put the soldiers in harms way??
excuse me, but the soldiers are in harms way, Obama, because you choose to continue sending them over there to protect OIL interests and corporate assholes.
Bring them Home.
and release the frigging photos.

the truth will set you free.


http://www.alternet.org/audits/139983/pipeline-istan%3A_everything_you_need_to_know_about_oil%2C_gas%2C_russia%2C_china%2C_iran%2C_afghanistan_and_obama/

[saigon68]

174. Or the PUPPET Mayor of Kabul our CIA Puppet

[florida08]

82. I feel the way Windy does

I want them released but should they be on the internet as horrific as they are? Our troops in Iraq are in still in dangerous circumstances. Would like to hear from family members on how they feel about it.

[JonLP24]

89. Not a family member

But I was over there in Iraq from June '06-'07 and I have close friends currently over there including one that was back door drafted. I support the release, troops are in danger as it is and they would be safer at home. I'm not a fan of government secrecy and something like torture is not something I'm a fan of covering up.

[florida08]

187. thank you

I'm glad your home :-) I agree with your position. My worry is that in light of the recent fraticide that occurred in Baghdad that the release of the photos might harm the psyche of others already trying to cope with so much they've experienced. I also worry that citizens here might take it out on the troops returning home. I lived through VN and remember how they were chastised. Perhaps it's different this time and the right people will be held accountable. It is time that the suits who sent them there without necessary equipment and for extended deployments pay for their decisions. For too long they've gotten away with it while it trickled down to our vets. That needs to stop today. I appreciate your service more than I can say. You were not drafted and that says a lot about a person's integrity. Thanks
:applause:

[defendandprotect]

250. Did we all die from having seen the orginal photos . .. or did it help?

[MellowDem]

85. I understand the need to be moderate...

to achieve certain goals, but this is not one of those times! C'mon Obama, grow some cojones!

[Dave From Canada]

90. Everyone who wants to see the photos is just being voyeuristic. I don't need to see pictures of

slavery to know it was wrong. So if they decide not to release photos, but still change the policy, I don't see what the problem is at all.

[EFerrari]

121. There are always excuses and moral judgments around government censorship.

[defendandprotect]

255. Many won't believe it until they see it -- you can tell that from the original

reactions to having heard about torture.

Additionally, the COURT did not think it was "voyeuristic" -- of all things!! --

to see the torture photos -- and thought the public should see them.

Meanwhile, it is the torturer who is a "voyeur" -- the torturer who is the sadist --

let's not reverse reality.

America needs to grow up and wake up -- and that's what profit from imperialism and

wars do not want to happen!

[PlanetBev]

92. How much worse than what we've already seen?

That picture of the hillbilly girl with a leash around a naked Muslim man's neck already put a bullseye on everybody in the American military.

[Alcibiades]

97. unspeakably worse

So bad that they would make Obama go back on his promise he made to all of us who worked our asses off and gave up time with our families to get him into office.

This is a big disappointment, and I'm old enough to not be easily disappointed.

[gblady]

118. question?

"So bad that they would make Obama go back on his promise he made to all of us who worked our asses off and gave up time with our families to get him into office."

Was releasing torture photos a campaign promise?
Must have missed that one.

[jayfish]

136. Umm... I Think That Falls Under The Open and Transparent Section.

Jay

[Alcibiades]

451. this is completely inconsistent with everything

Obama ran on with regard to transparency.

This goes to FOIA, and the President's been clear on that: “The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails.” "The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears."

There really are, I think, only three possibilities:

1. These photos are horrible, and they threaten to detract so much from the domestic agenda, that the President is fighting disclosure in order to get healthcare passed.

2. The President knows that the "new legal argument" is completely spurious, and is just looking to buy time.

3. The President knows that the "new legal argument" is spurious, and in fact is just looking to have it invalidated in court while giving himself cover politically.

The actual reason given, BTW, is laughable--endangering our troops? Are they not in a war zone? How much more danger could they be in? Do we need to give our enemies the power to change things like whether we are to remain an open society? This "argument" is so laughable it's hard to credit Obama would credit it for a moment.

[Alcibiades]

95. Aren't the troops who are "endangered" in a war zone?

Sounds as if they are already in danger. If you want them out of danger, bring them home. If you think part of the reason we are supposed to venerate the profession of arms is that they willingly tolerate danger, I don't see the big deal.

Oh, and it was the torture that was reprehensible, not the photos of it. If they are that reprehensible, that sounds like a good reason to make it public, not to cover it up.

[MirrorAshes]

98. you guys aren't seeing the forest through the trees...

1st off, this WOULD force a new wave of anger through the areas where we have people's lives at stake. That really does mean something.

2ndly, it doesn't change the fact that this slow trickle of information and the debate its causing is keeping the story alive--and keeping the story alive is what will motivate people to take action. Obama hasn't closed the book on anything, he is simply being cautious. Would he ANY of this to be happening if he were simply going to roadblock it? No. That would make no sense. Yes he is being cautious--and some will certainly say overly cautious--but we are taking baby steps in the right direction. This is probably one of the most politically difficult things any president has ever faced--but we have clear indications that this is moving forward... slowly, but surely.

So take a deep breath. We all have to be patient. If, in the end, Obama has done nothing and this all fades away, then by all means, he deserves whatever criticism he gets. But for now... have a little faith. something this awful can't be undone in a day, or a week, or possibly even a year.

[ShortnFiery]

102. All I'm seeing now is "White Wash" with a side of "Cover-Up" with us (Dems) once again

in the position of enablers / co-dependents. :(

[MirrorAshes]

110. well then you're jumping to conclusions.

this is going to take time to play out. possibly a long time. save your anger for when it will actually be justified.

[ShortnFiery]

138. No, I will NOT. The longer this takes, the MORE innocent people die.

We must uncover the FARCE that is this occupation and bring our troops home now.

No, we have TWO ongoing OCCUPATIONS and more troops deployed than last year under Bush.

I will NOT be patient. :grr: :thumbsdown:

[ChiciB1]

180. WAIT? MORE TIME? INFLAME PEOPLE? Where's MY Transparency??

OMG, as each day goes by, I see that I HAVE ONCE AGAIN been DUPED!! I've HAD IT!!

[defendandprotect]

260. The courts have been trying to get this stuff out to the public for years -- !!!

America needs to see them and really wake up!!!

[EFerrari]

109. This isn't about troop safety, it's about politics.

We're bombing women and children to kingdom come. A few pictures can't make anyone hate us more than they already do.

[JonLP24]

116. Exactly

Blocking these photos won't stop the roadside bombs or the complex attacks. It is danger zone, I've been there. Contracters got kidnapped, troops got killed, and people over there hated us. Not everyone but quite a few people did.

[MirrorAshes]

144. its about both.

to dismiss the troop's safety argument is to deny reality.

[JonLP24]

160. The reality is they are already in danger

Complex attacks, roadside bombs, attemted hijackings, etc are a daily occurence. This decision isn't going to make much of a change one way or the other.

[EFerrari]

161. There was no uptick in attacks on our troops after the Abu Ghraib material was released.

And the so called "enemy" knew about this torture and abuse before we did. So, no, the troop safety argument is bullshit.

[No Elephants]

173. No. Believing that pieces of paper will endanger our troops more than our actions already have is

to deny reality. We bombed Afghanistan, then we invaded and occoupied Iraq for seven effing years. Meanwhile we tortured, denied legal rights, the whole nine yards.

EVERYOne in the world knows what we did, probably more than we do. And you think the photos are going to matter more than all the actual flesh and blood events, deaths, etc.? That's what you consider reality?

You are buying into someone's Big Lie.

[rhett o rick]

389. I agree completely. nm

[defendandprotect]

264. It is "dismissable" - had Bush/Cheney been concerned about troops . . .

they wouldn't have permitted TORTURED which does endanger our troops --

Americans need to see this stuff and wake up -- and that's exactly what TPB fear.

[Hissyspit]

128. In the end?

When is "the end?"

[MirrorAshes]

150. I don't know.

Noone does. Which is why we've got to have at least a tiny little bit of faith that once "the end" does come we can look back on it and say we tried our best to undo all the wrongs from the Bush era in as responsible a way possible.

Being too hasty while walking such a thin tightrope is a surefire way to make this all backfire on us and the party. We do it right, a republican might never be elected again. We do it wrong, we could have Sarah Palin in 2012.

This is why I will save my anger and continue to put trust in the man I worked so hard to elect.

[defendandprotect]

267. The courts have been trying to release this stuff to public for years -- !!!!

[emilyg]

100. Good.

[laureloak]

104. Good.

[ShortnFiery]

108. Yes, if we don't see the pictures, I'm sure the rest of the WORLD has not also.

:crazy:

If we don't show the pictures, THAT means that we didn't REALLY TORTURE?!?

Damn this Administration for PROTECTING DICK CHENEY first, NOT the Troops. :grr:

[laureloak]

332. Releasing photos would harm soldiers, not Cheney. n/t

[garybeck]

363. no it wouldn't. this is from the PAST, under BUSH

our "enemies" know we are not doing this crap anymore.

[diamidue]

375. Then get the soldiers out of there.

You think the Iraqis don't already know about the torture Americans have committed? What makes you think they like American servicemen anyway? We are over there killing innocent civilians - mothers and children on a daily basis.

This is NOT about protecting soldiers in Iraq. It is about protecting Americans from seeing the truth of what their govt. is doing. The same reason they don't show video of the carnage the US is committing on the streets over there. The same reason, until recently, that they wouldn't show bodies coming home.

The reason we are rated so low in freedom of the press.

[JustinL]

112. so he's blocking the release of the photos, but not the firing of gay troops?

I donated hundreds of dollars to the man last year, but I'm about ready to give up on him.

[ShortnFiery]

122. If We, The People, stand up and protest this, we could MAKE Obama do his job.

After all, behind all the good looks, intelligence and likability, Obama is a consummate POLITICIAN first and foremost.

Let's MAKE him do it ... we can with our threat of votes for more progressive democrats during the 2010 Primaries.

I'm ready to clean House. Are you?

[ChiciB1]

269. Would That We Could... Would That We Had The Power... Truth Is...

MONEY talks, and the same people keep getting elected BECAUSE they raise the most money!

BEEN THERE, trying to elect NEW people more times than I'd like to remember. I'm WITH YOU, just don't have a clue as to how to get it done!

One thing for sure, I'm really getting fed up with the "CHANGE" that we keep seeing happen! And it's NOT THE CHANGE I thought we were going to see!

It's POLITICS and I think it's time for me to crawl away! Maybe another day I'll feel different, but what I've seen so far is "small" and unfortunately it appears to comfort a lot of people these days. Obama has done "some" things, but he's BLOWING the bigger stuff!

I'm very disappointed right now!

[defendandprotect]

271. Right . . . too dangerous to overturn "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" but no problem helping torturers . . .

[FloriTexan]

130. If the photos are extremely graphic...

Say for example, if they show photos of children being sodomized (which I have seen eluded to on other DU postings), do you really need or want to see it. Not all crime scene photos make it into the media. There's a reason for that - victims have a right to their privacy.

[dysfunctional press]

135. this is about the privacy of the perpeTRAITORS, not the victims...

and it's fucking disgusting for obama to be putting his tail between his legs for his military-industrial complex masters so quickly.
it's very unbelievably uncle tom-ish of him.

[FloriTexan]

155. No, what's disgusting is that ..

some people would appear to have to see these photos to be convinced. I do not disagree that the perpetraitors should be punished, no matter how far up the ladder it goes they should all be punished, but do you have to see the photos.

If you were a victim of these crimes, and lived, how would you feel about knowing that your pixeled face on every tv and computer screen in the world.

[dysfunctional press]

164. up until today, obama was pushing for their release as well.

and for your info- the faces of the victims are generally pixilated and unrecognizable.

[FloriTexan]

175. That doesn't make it better...

The victims will know its them. Guess that's okay with you. What if it was your brother, son or daughter? Is that okay?

[dysfunctional press]

183. if it were one of my loved ones- i'd be screaming even louder for their release...

i wouldn't what was done to them to go unpunished and just be hidden away.

if victims of CRIMES are continually 'shamed' into hiding the facts of the matter- even though they've done NOTHING wrong- how would/could criminals ever be brought to justice for their actions...?

[FloriTexan]

252. So if it was your child...

or brother or father who was abused or sodomized you'd want the whole world to see the pictures? Really?! I completely disagree with your comment that victims are continually shamed into hiding facts, although I might make an exception if I was a victim and someone released pixeled photos of me being raped or tortured to the world. That might be the only way I could feel more humiliated or shamed.

[defendandprotect]

276. I'd absolutely want the videos released and all pictures -- how else do you stop this ????

Do you think you stop torture by hiding the photos of it?

Do you think you stop torture by hiding from the truth of it?

What they fear is having the public rise up over these photos --

they need Americans to stay quiet, stay controlled!

[FloriTexan]

291. You use the photos as evidence in a trial and you

prosecute, convict and sentence them. The troops that perpetrated these crimes were ordered to do so. Do you really think that showing Cheney's handywork to the masses will change anything? They will just look at it and say they made America safer by what they did. They are not ashamed of it and they can't continue to order it to be done so what is the point of showing all the photos now. People who are inclined to torture, rape and murder, regardless of who's name it is done in, are not going to change my mind because they see some photos of it being done.

[defendandprotect]

312. The Nuremberg Trials are a perfect example against ....

your false sense of reality --

Nazi crimes/tortures were made public -- all of them --
photos in newspapers -- on film -- released.
Did you die from that knowledge or from seeing those photos?

Eisenhower demanded that German citizens be marched thru the concentration camps.
So the truth could not be denied in future -- by anyone.

Again, "obeying orders" is rejected as an excuse for doing torture.
Check out Nuremberg Trials.

The point of having America see the photos/film is so that it is indelibly impacted
on their conscience -- and hopefully they will rise up and demand prosecution.
THAT is what TPB fear -- America awakening.

America is threatened by the likes of Bush/Cheney -- not by "terrarists" -- In fact,
the whole world agrees that the US is the "terrorist" . . . including the UN so labeling us!

And, think you got a little confused here . . .

People who are inclined to torture, rape and murder, regardless of who's name it is done in, are not going to change my mind because they see some photos of it being done.

The courts have been working for years to release this info to the public -- I think they
judged well. We make grave error when we fail to prosecute and hold people responsibile
for the atrocities they commit. The past 50 years is emblematic of that!

All history argues for truth -- and that truth needs to be seen and understood in full.

Again -- it is our nation's agenda to commit TORTURE which endangers our troops ---
not photos or film of the torture we committed. Americans need to see this truth and
feel the full impact of it.

[FloriTexan]

329. The Nuremberg Trials...

really scared the crap out of the Bush administration. Really kept them from committing war crimes. :sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

334. They will always try . . . however, the precedents sent by not holding Nixon

responsibile . . . by not honestly investigating JFK coup, MLK coup, RFK coup . . .

Iran Contra, S&L Thefts and Embezzlements, Vietnam . . . and our torture program in

Vietnam/Operation Phoenix . . . . 50 years of political violence and election steals --

THAT encouraged Bush/Cheney.

Plus they were able to keep their actions secret -- much of their stuff is still secret.

[FloriTexan]

338. I agree with that, but ...

photos aren't going to make a difference either. To release the photos would simply add insult to injury for the victims and their families and likely renew violence against our troops and perhaps even everyday Americans alike.

[defendandprotect]

345. That's not true . .. victims identities would be protected . . .

and, I'd imagine they would be among the first to want the world to know what

America did to their children! I would.

Again -- it is not photos which creates violence against our troops --

it is the actual TORTURE of people that produces violence against our troops.

Americans need to see this evidence and ACT on it -- and THAT is what TPB fear.

[juno jones]

477. I like your avatar

But do you know who Dali was?

He did not just paint cool melting watches.

He painted truth.

Just ask him.



I fully agree with Dali that the world should be revealed regardless of people's delicate sensibilities.

cheers, Juno the artist.

[TankLV]

529. Another texASS - figures...

[casaloma]

485. Absolutely agree

Had to log in for the first time in yrs to say how much I agree that the atmosphere of secrecy in this country has poisoned and paralyzed us. We HAVE to advocate for truth. It seems so strange to me that so many here advocate for the reverse. Hiding things is what got us into, and enabled, this mess.

[dysfunctional press]

405. definitely.

i certainly hope that you are never raped.

if it has to happen- i'd rather it happen to someone who'd have the courage to stand up to their attacker court, in the light of day- to make sure that the same thing couldn't happen to others.

but- if you're happy with your view, that's fine. for you. and an extremely sad commentary on what a weak-willed society we have become.

[TankLV]

528. Fucking STRAWMAN argument. BULLSHIT!

If I were the parent - I'd want ALL evidence to build a MOUNTAIN of EVIDENCE to INSURE the the GUILTY are PUNISHED!!!

I'd want JUSTICE!!!

[No Elephants]

148. IMO, it is important that EVERYone know that deeds like this will not be hidden, covered

up, etc. That America will not look the other way or otherwise aid, abet or enable. That we will expose evildoers and prosecute them, as we obligated ourselves to do in 1988, when we became party to the UN Convention Against Torture.

That and only that is the way we are going to separate ourselves from the Bush Crime Family and their doings and begin to redeem America.

Anything less than that and the world will see no difference between one American regime and the other, no difference between Bushco and America as a whole. We will be less safe and so will our troops.

[defendandprotect]

281. Exactly -- keeping these photos from the public is keeping the secret hidden . . .

it's protecting the torturers --

EVERYONE needs to know that these things will no longer be hidden and kept secret --

That's the way to stop this -- and the only way.

[laureloak]

540. I trust Obama to handle this in a way that's in our best interest. n/t

[Blandocyte]

132. Flip-flopping is now bound to be an issue next election year

This sucks.

[Enthusiast]

143. Republicans call it 'flip-flopping'.

Democrats think of it more like being flexible and willing to adapt to changes in circumstances. The truth is President Obama and the country can't suffer through more of the kind of insurgency we had after the original torture photos were released. In the long run it might be a good call. Think back to the horrific insurgency when we were losing service men and women every single day.

[jefferson_dem]

162. Oh please.

Silliest comment of the day, and that's saying something.

[Blandocyte]

490. They'll call it flip-flopping

See if I'm not right with my "silly" comment.

[democracy1st]

133. hell no he doesn't need to show that sh...

[demwing]

137. Holding the photographs back does NOT equate to doing nothing

Surely Obama has already seen the photos, and KNOWS what horrible details are included. Maybe, just maybe, we DON'T know what all of the pictures portray. Perhaps we have heard only a small percentage of the crap that has been done in our name, and the complete set of images are revolting and incendiary, dangerous not only to our troops, but to our citizens at home and abroad.

Think honestly for a moment, and answer which of these two scenarios seem most realistic:

1. Obama fooled us, has sold out to the BFEE, and is protecting Bush, Cheney, etc

2. The Bush administration was more evil than we thought, and the photographs depict acts that are much worse than anyone has previously guessed.

Of the two, #2 seems the most logical answer.

I don't care if the photos are released to the public. In fact, I hope they are not. What I care about if whether the crimes are prosecuted, and whether justice is served. Tell me how justice is served any further if the photos are made public?

[ShortnFiery]

141. Airing THE TRUTH makes sure that these Atrocities do not happen again.

The TRUTH, including those photos MUST be released ASAP.

Holding them back is WRONG. Obama is enabling the "war crimes" of the previous Administration.

I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THAT ... I VOTED FOR TRANSPARENCY!

:grr:

[FloriTexan]

168. The truth yes...

Photos, no. This kind of thing will probably happen again and again regardless of whether you release these photos. The first ones were bad enough. Use the photos "in camera" as evidence in a trial, but it does absolutely no good to show them to the world.

[ShortnFiery]

277. It does a WORLD of good. The criminals can NOT deny or resurface in future Administrations

Do you want another Bush-Cheney Presidency ... but on steroids because they already have set the groundwork, in the future?

We must SHOW the photos. NOW!

[FloriTexan]

299. That can be done in court...

publishing the photos to the world in advance of a trial can cause you to lose the trial and get sued instead. There is a process to the rule of law and if its not followed you can do more harm than good.

[defendandprotect]

286. You have to have Americans see ALL the evidence of torture . . .

otherwise it can be denied -- and it will not have the impact it should have.

What we need most of all is America to wake up --

What they are trying desperately to avoid is .... having Americans wake up!!!

[FloriTexan]

303. I'm sure a juries' eyes would be sufficient to convict.

They have already acknowledged this stuff happened. People have already been convicted. Yes, those convictions need to go up the chain but this is not the way. Also, it won't be just Americans who see these photos. It will be the families of the victims and the families of the perpetraitors. If it was your son or daughter doing the torturing or being raped and tortured would you want their photos all over the world?

[defendandprotect]

313. The Courts and the ACLU do not think so . . . this is for all Americans to see . . .

and feel the full impact of --

and talk to one another about -- on websites and in person.

And, finally, let's hope to rise up as Americans should against this ever happening
again and holding those responsible for it.

If it was my son or daughter doing the torture, I'd probably turn them in!!!

[FloriTexan]

331. Not a single photo of previous wars...

or photos of previous war crime victims has had the effect of preventing what the Bush Administration did.

[defendandprotect]

337. What Bush/Cheney did is "illegal" -- because of law . . .

Our Constitution bars "cruel and unusual punishment" --

Military law prevents torture --

Geneva Accords prevent torture --

And, common sense and history argue against torture --

We have had 50 years of political violence go unprosecuted . . .

THAT has encouraged Bush/Cheney --

[FloriTexan]

341. Yes.

Use the photos "in camera" at trial and convict the bastards. True convictions are not done in the media. They are done in a court of law.

[defendandprotect]

347. THE COURTS ARE ARGUING FOR RELEASE ....

and they've been arguing for getting this information to the public for years ---

So has the ACLU --

I think the courts know quite well what they are doing ---

And, whatever is done in our name, America needs to know it, feel it and see it --

That's why suppressing films of coffins and suppressing film of war is so wrong.

That's why America's rich partying while we are at war is so wrong.

[FloriTexan]

353. Technically...

aren't the courts are hearing the cases brought by others? Where do these hearings stand? What level are they at? I hope the rule against the release and hold that they should be for in camera use only in a trial. And, again, all the previous photos of war, death and dying, torture and torture victims from the past were unable to prevent Abu Graib. What makes you think these will have any more affect?

[defendandprotect]

428. The courts have decided that the public should see this video/photos . . .

that has been their effort over a number of years -- to bring the video/photos to the
attention of the American public.

Again, we could not prevent Abu Graib because it was done in secrecy -- and people illegally
"followed orders." Soldiers seem to have been denied information about and instructions against
torture as stipulated in Stockholm Syndrome, in Geneva Accords, in Constitution . . .
in Military Law!

Lawyers distorted laws on torture in order to please their superiors - or because of their
own personal perversions.

Doctors/Psychologists assisted and abetted torturers despite their oaths because they either
didn't care to resist or their ability to resist was too weak.

And, also because those in Congress who knew something about this did not act to prevent it.

Further -- because in the past we have not prosecuted government crime -- from Watergate to
Iran Contra and October Surprise.

Bush/Cheney should have been impeached -- these years of torture would have been shortened for the
victims.

[demwing]

270. The truth exists, even if the photos did not

holding the photos back is NOT THE SAME as witholding the truth.

[ShortnFiery]

280. PICTURES make it real. You know that. Abu Graib would not have been if NOT for

the Photos.

[saigon68]

543. So true Graner and the other War Criminals put the Chimp into it

He denied until the photos showed this scumbag to be a War Criminal

[ClusterFreak]

182. Thank you for your sane voice amidst a rising tide of hysteria.

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

186. You know, it's still an appeal to authority, i.e., authoritarianism,

when we do it. And there are other choices besides the false dilemma you pose, like Obama has his own PR reasons for blocking the release.

The best reason to release these photos is to build support for a prosecution. That's how they can serve justice.

[AngryAmish]

139. lookee here

[texastoast]

140. If we don't release them, we look like pussies who can't take responsibility

for what we let the shrub administration get away with.

I'd be all for holding the photos until trial IF we could get a warrant on the Bush cabal.

Meanwhile, these photos WILL COME OUT. It would be better if they came from us who let it happen along with a vow that it will never happen again.

[ShortnFiery]

146. This is more of Clintonian DLC type governing. Dammit, I've been punked again ...

Now what do they call themselves, Third Way? = Status Quo of enriching the Investor Class and pissing on everyone else ... Including the MILITARY with endless damn WAR WAR WAR. :grr:

[snowdays]

165. Its Obama type governing. Obama can accept responsibility for

these decisions.

[ShortnFiery]

275. It's still the same old "DLC" nothing ever changes bull shit - investor class wins

everyone else is fucked. :(

[patrick t. cakes]

142. BOOOOOO !!!

[William769]

145. I would like one person here defending Obama on this

To show where they also defended bush for the same thing instead of trying to castrate Bush for the same thing. BTW, I won't hold my breath.

[jefferson_dem]

151. When you start praising Barack for the stuff you would be praising your primary candidate for...

You can start making such demands, william.

Welcome back. :hi:

[William769]

159. Like I said I won't hold my breath.

Because it will never happen.

BTW, I never went anywhere. I just choose to post when I feel the need.

[pnwmom]

154. There are two major differences.

One, Obama wasn't responsible for the torture, as Bush was.

Two, if Obama is ORDERED to release the photos, I doubt that he will ignore a ruling from the Supreme Court.

But we shall see.

[William769]

163. The only difference is who's trying to pass the kool-aid.

[Kahoneez]

149. OCCUPATION is the BIGGEST Incentive

Supporters of Imperialist who suffer from some gene defect , can't understand when you invade and occupy a country , people tend not to like that and when you knock down doors & make arrests , people don't like that . It's a simple concept , yet supporters of occupation can wrap their jingoistic brains around that, so the photos won't add any more incentive than the old photos of U.S. torture already has or any more than the BOMBS that wipe out wedding parties in Afghanistan or the 25,000 arrested in Iraq by foreign troops (U.S.).
The only difference between Bush the Imperialist and Obama the Imperialist is .....................................................Obama has a jump shot.

CNN/ Kyra Phillips covered the press conference ,spent more time replaying the fun & games with the cell phones going off , showing once again , these degenerates in the so called 'news" media are more interested in entertainment and misinforming the public , instead of reporting this issue seriously . I hate these infotainers !

[jefferson_dem]

157. I'm not going to get worked up over this.

There are a few things I will go to the mat over. The failure of the President to support release of prisoner abuse photos is not one of them.

I totally understand Obama's position here, as I appreciate the push by the ACLU to force the pics into the sunlight. When/if they are released, it will not (necessarily) be with the President's blessing. Cool by me.

[Hamlette]

171. I'm with you Jefferson dem.

I understand Obama's reasons and in some way, I'm relieved I don't have to see them. If Sy Hersh is right and there are photos of troops sodomizing children I can't handle the truth :)

This one is not worth going to the mattresses over.

(BTW, I understand "going to the mat" but why mattresses? The mat seems to be a fighters term, mattresses are for sleeping and other enjoyable things. Sorry, I got distracted by one of my leaset favorite movies. But then, I'm a girl so no wonder.)

[No Elephants]

290. See The Godfather (the original). Keep a special ear out for the dialogue of the

Clemenza character.

[marshall]

213. He's not failing to support the release, he is actively blocking it, reportedly

There's a big difference.

[LaPera]

166. Huffington Post, Raw Story et al). It "broke" hours ago....

[dave29]

167. It is very easy to sit here

and slam Obama for this -- claiming transparency will set us free. If he thinks this will endanger our servicemen, specifically at this point in time, I trust his judgment. I agree that the truth must come out, but it's one thing to type about it, and another thing to ask our soldiers to live (or die) with the ramifications of these photos coming out.

[No Elephants]

298. Please see Reply 225 and 148. Also, somewhere on this post is a post by someone who fought in Iraq.

He or she believes there will be no difference: our troops already have a target on the backs (from the invasion, occupation and actual atrocities).

[dave29]

442. that is one valid opinion

in a chorus. The President has to weigh all of them. If this is his judgment, I trust it. He may be wrong, but at least he is showing concern for their safety, unlike the man who put us in this situation.

[OwnedByFerrets]

177. So much for transparency. New boss, same as the old boss....

in certain areas.

[keepCAblue]

361. same pig just a new shade of lipstick.

[truth2power]

184. Whatever could the problem be? We didn't torture. So sez Darth...

If they have nothing to hide ....

:mad: :mad:

[rjwin]

189. I believe we have had this discussion before

and Mamie Till Bradley made the right choice:

[ronnykmarshall]

190. Oh dear,

[defendandprotect]

191. Heard this on Schultz -- disgusting . . .

Believe me, Obama isn't protecting the public in any sense . . . he's protecting

the TORTURERS .... Bush/Cheney --

[no_more_fascists]

192. Sunlight is the best Antiseptic for a Diseased Political System

What's the sound? Oh wow...it sounds just like back peddling to me! Clinton swept the Iran-Contra Affair under the Oval Office rug. Now, it is Obama's turn to do the same with the torture photos.

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
--from "Casablanca"

[Mari333]

210. welcome to DU and yep nt

[Soylent Brice]

393. welcome to DU

[fascisthunter]

202. It's Not the Americans who Can't Handle the Truth

it's the upper crust losers who have too much to lose who can't handle the truth, so they send out their trolls to argue against transparency, which is important when trying to hold criminals accountable and gain the support of other Americans to pressure this shity government of ours to do SOMETHING besides working for a bunch of rich sociopaths.

[Tikki]

204. Why were these photos taken?....Who were the photographers?...

Were these photos mandated (as in bush, cheney)? Are they part of The U.S. historical database?
Unless we tattooed U.S. military secrets on the backs of the detainees that were photographed
...we need to see them..
If U.S.tax payers' money paid for the photographers and/or the photos we
should have the option of seeing them.


Tikki

[saigon68]

216. Sabrina Harmann and friends

[defendandprotect]

289. Supposedly to frighten and intimidate other prisoners, parents . . . the world, I guess . . .

humilitation was big with the right-wing imperialists --

Personally, I think Bush/Cheney/Yoo/Gonzalez are sadists who probably

enjoyed thoughts of this torture and maybe even watching the films.

[bdamomma]

215. I would like to know what Senator Whitehouse would say about this?

[Dinger]

223. cheney and the torturers threatened him

Don't doubt it folk.

[d_b]

235. Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!

awhoooooo!!elevens!!11

[ima_sinnic]

244. absolutely fucking disgusting

fuck you, you stinking fake "consitutional scholar" and war criminal.
I want my campaign contributions back.
I will never vote for that fucking fraud again.
From now on, when that charlatan is on the tube, I will do what I did with * and the rest of the monsters--reach for the remote as quickly as I can. I will not believe anything that comes out of his mouth.
He sold us out to the banksters, he's selling us out to the insurance fraudsters, he's covering up war crimes, he's got his own useless Vietnam going in Afghanistan, he's french-kissing republican butt and using "lack of bipartisanship" as an excuse for ignoring the will of We The People.
oh, but everything's aok, because he's a "superhuman chess player" who has "secret moves" we mortals "can't understand." He's "eloquent." He's all about "change." He has a "D" after his name doncha know.

adios, ** (whose name I will not say again)

and kick me off this board, too, because I'm done with the fucking democrats--with very few exceptions, they are all stinking scum

[Dinger]

251. Wow, You Said It All

I don't have the nerve.

[ShortnFiery]

261. Amen! It's time for me to move on by working in my local community.

I too hold out NO HOPE for the CORRUPT SCUM who make up our national political leaders. With few, very notable exceptions, they are all career politicians and a waste of humanity.

Here! Here! :toast:

[defendandprotect]

294. They want you to give up . . .

These photos would help America wake up and rise up --

Meanwhile, you voted for Dems -- and doubt you'd vote for GOP --

So where are you going to go?

Work for public financing of campaigns -- FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT HR 1826 --

legislation in the works -- get your Senators and Reps to support/pledge/sponsor --

If we can get IRV voting we can break this circle of fascism...

[ima_sinnic]

321. I don't think I'm even going to vote anymore. Nader was right--there's no difference

"change" is a lie. I've been suckered for the last time. If I don't invest any energy in them, if I simply don't care, I lose nothing. There is nothing, really, to be gained by voting for a democrat, I finally see (after more than 40 yrs of voting for D's and thinking "the next time" would be better--when they won at all).

[defendandprotect]

323. Think of women and African Americans and homosexuals and . . .

Martin Luther King, RFK, and JFK --

do you think they would have given up -- No.

Those who want to control others -- those with a penchant for violence -- will

always be with us. It is a constant battle.

You can't give up.

Look at all you've learned at this point!!

Fight for public financing and IRV voting -- and keep at it!!

[defendandprotect]

293. Where are you going to go?

I doubt you helped Dems only to go vote for Repugs . . .

Fight for public financing so we can get IRV voting and break thru this FU mess . . .

[ima_sinnic]

322. fuck any and all "candidates." I won't vote for anybody. I'd rather work to legalize pot

I'll just stay high all the time, and sell some LEGALLY to help with my retirement. screw the politicians--D, R, what does it matter? it's all war, all the time, in between picking our pockets for their various frauds and scams.

[defendandprotect]

325. I understand it's a bad day when we all feel betrayed . . .

but keep in mind that the COURTS are fighting and have been fighting for years

to get this info out to the public.

Support the ACLU if you can --

Again, they want you to feel helpless and like you can't force change.

I'm also trying to help the marijuana organizations as much as I can with

contributions . . .

The Drug War is another big opportunity for control of the public.

If we can get public financing then we can get IRV voting and bust up this two party system!

Hang in there!

[jayfish]

410. Seems Like Am Awful Lot Of "Bad Days" Since January Though.

Doesn't it?

Jay

[Seldona]

513. Your realistic option is?

What? McCain/Pallin for christ's sake?

There is still a court case. A court case the previous administration was losing, I might add. I don't believe in anyone's cult of personality, but to say President Obama is a war criminal, which puts him on the same level as Bush and Cheney because of this, is completely disingenuous.

That is putting it kindly.

[winyanstaz]

247. Why? We the people have the right to know what went on in our names.

I guess its because if it comes out...they will have to prosecute and this administration has NO intention of prosecuting anyone for crimes in high government offices.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

248. Pull the troops out and release the photos.

Face it, it's a mess that cannot be fixed and it's not one Obama made. Even though the clean up is on his shoulders.

My solution is to accept that chaos will reign supreme if we pull out now or later. The regions are deteriorating with our troops there as it is. Then get our military's butts in gear and vamonos. Then we saturate the media with how the illegal use of torture by the previous administration left the US soldiers in such a dangerous situation there was no other alternative left available without facing massive loss of US soldier's lives.

Yeah, I know it's not going to happen that way.

[defendandprotect]

297. Funding Bush/Cheney wars for two years looks more like they intend to stay . . .

20 military bases in Iraq -- a Taj Mahal of an Embassy -- the oil pipeline -- !!!

Heroin in Afghanistan . . . it's TPB dream come true --

[MilesColtrane]

256. This is political cowardice on Obama's part.

As another poster mentioned, he failed to get ahead of the message Cheney and the other torturers are floating-that the release endangers U.S. soldiers.

Well that ship has sailed. It was the acts themselves that make people hate our country and it's military. Trying to cover up the depiction of those acts doesn't make them go away.

Mr. President, releasing these photos is necessary for this country to begin to correct and heal the crimes and abuses against our Constitution and humanity that were engineered by the Bush administration.
Indeed, there will be NO healing until the band aid is ripped off and the full ugliness is exposed.

It is your duty to attempt to reestablish the ideals this country was founded on. It's why we elected you.

Don't do this.

[Peregrine Took]

265. He's a politician and he wants to get re-elected. Naively, we thought he was

different but he's not - he's just more manipulative.

[No Elephants]

309. I don't know if Obama reads what comes in via www.whitehouse.gov, but I'm willing to bet he

will not be reading this thread. If that is how you feel, at least try getting it to him via www.whitehouse.gov

[MilesColtrane]

316. Done

[Dinger]

257. Fuck It. Kucinich Is My President (nt)

[defendandprotect]

300. Me, too -- cheers to Kucinich -- !!! Keep at it, Dennis!!!

[jefferson_dem]

360. Department of Peace!

NOW!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[D23MIURG23]

258. He is afraid of what this will do to the political discourse.

The more the average person knows about the shit the Bush Cabal was doing, the less sagacious "looking forward instead of backward" sounds.

My sense is that Obama wants this stuff to go away so that he can get other shit done without worrying about the many political difficulties caused by warcrime prosecutions. I wish he would get to it already so that the country can put its criminality behind it.

[ShortnFiery]

266. Releasing these photos could very well help END these useless occupations.

Obama's big bosses in The Military Industrial Complex will have none of that and have ordered him to block their release. :(

[Doctor_J]

268. Someone got to him - either threatened him with death

or terrorism against his family or the like. I don't think he's afraid of Cheney the man, but something has frightened him out of pursuing justice.

[ShortnFiery]

272. I didn't vote for a "frightened" or "blackmailable" President. He should have thought

of the possibility and do his DAMN JOB. :grr:

[Dinger]

283. Fucking A ShortnFiery

Boy, what the fuck is going on here?

[ShortnFiery]

287. I believe that people are trying to take the easy way out. We can't.

It's painful but these law-breakers should be punished.

If we don't AMERICANS could be tortured after the next terrorist attack occurs.

THINK ABOUT THAT? = WE, USA Citizens could be TORTURED because we failed to EXPOSE these evil leaders NOW and they resurfaced MUCH stronger in the future.

[Dinger]

279. That Was My First Fucking Thought, And Yes

that's like a regular thought.

[totodeinhere]

301. You should have said that it is in your opinion. You state as if it were a fact something that...

you have no way of proving. Or in other words, you have posted mere speculation as if it were a proven fact.

While I am not happy about this outcome, I will take the administration at it's word that this decision was made for reasons of national security.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22470.html

[ProgressIn2008]

318. Frightened? If he's that much of a coward, he should resign right now

Damn, he's got armies of Secret Service and better health care than the rest of us could dream of. And he wanted the job. That's a noxious explanation -- his comfort doesn't counteract the rule of law. That would be some kind of monarch or caesar in charge -- here's hoping we're still a wee bit shy of rooting for that.

As the fantasies about Obama's super duper top secret plans go, this one is just unusually awful.

If he/Congress can keep soldiers in wars to die, he should have the balls to "pursue justice," at the very least.

[Bluenorthwest]

340. Then he must resign, for he is derelict in his sworn duty

Such is the fucking nature of the job.

[chrisa]

473. lol

Life isn't that interesting. This is purely a polical decision by a polician. Not that I wouldn't doubt the CIA would do something like that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

278. The wingnuts on my paper's website are applauding this decision

They're all "good Germans" who "don't know" what their country is doing.

We need to know. We need our noses rubbed in this. We need trials of those responsible, and if that includes a few complicit Dems, so be it.

[Javaman]

284. oh well, so much for that transparency, huh?

it's like this, the majority of Americans are calling for morons* head over the torture issue.

Right now Obama can keep a simmering lid on the issue, if he lets out the photos, all hell breaks loose and investigation after investigation begins and it will show that many a Democrat were complicit on the torture issue. Come 2010, not only repukes will be tossed out on their asses by so will dems.

so many forces at work here. So many people screaming bloody murder behind the scenes to keep these pictures out of the publics eye.

We know they exist and at some point will be released. And as much as I respect Obama, this time, regardless of his excuses, reasons, plans, tactics, whatever, those photos need to be release and allow for the chips to fall where they may.

Cleaning out a horses stall first starts with a shovel.

[Lerkfish]

285. and lerkfish wept

:(

[mdmc]

296. close your eyes can't happen here

Alexander Haig is near!

[Doctor_J]

304. Caller on Schultz just said that Cheney is planning another 9/11

and that this media tour is to make sure that when it happens, everyone knows that it's because we're not torturing (enough) any more. Maybe this capitulation is a deal :shrug:

[Generator]

Can we just have that alternate universe

like on "Fringe" where the WTC is still standing and none of this ever happened? I can't take this shit no more.

[nutshell2002]

306. "Change"

Who knew it just meant a new house and dog?

[jefferson_dem]

362. Only fools do.

n/t

[dipsydoodle]

307. Now headline news on BBC TV News here in the UK @ 9pm BST

x(

Hmmm : change................................. same shit different day.

[and-justice-for-all]

310. unacceptable...nt

[ooglymoogly]

315. Change????

change you cant believe.

[JDPriestly]

319. Those who authorized or ordered torture should be prosecuted, and the pictures used as evidence.

Human beings need completion. If I tell you the first part of a story or joke no matter how trivial or stupid, you want to hear the rest of it.

So, how does this apply to Obama's decision to release the torture pictures? The whole world knows that they exist. Everyone in the world outside the U.S. has heard the statements of people who were tortured. If Obama has the pictures and does not release them, if the complete truth is not told, the world can make up its own "facts." The best forum for releasing them is in a legal prosecution of those responsible for the torture. And that is why we need indictments and prosecutions.

If the whole truth is not made public, and if there are no trials, we, as a nation, will start a long process of endless therapy, theorizing again and again about who did what, when, why and whether it was wrong or right, reliving the moral trauma of this situation over and over.

Remember, Americans who lived through the Kennedy assassination still haven't dealt fully with that trauma. You cannot sweep things like an assassination or torture under the emotional rug. They stay in your life and gnaw away at you. That is true of individuals and of nations. It helps to know the whole truth.

Many societies deal with crime through personal revenge. Some believe that failing to avenge a wrong is a breach of honor, as a mark of weakness, a wrong in and of itself. It's the need of people in such cultures for vengeance that threatens our soldiers.

Officially, we do not have a culture of personal revenge. Rather, we have a legal system that relies on due process and evidence to establish facts and punish fairly. If we have lost our faith in the ability of our legal system to achieve justice, to serve as an alternative to vengeance and violence, then we encourage the cultures of vengeance and violence in other countries. We leave others no recourse but to rely on vengeance to restore their honor.

That is why, if we wish to protect our soldiers and other American citizens from revenge for these senseless, cruel acts of torture, then we need to show the world that our system of law works, that we have prosecuted and punished these crimes. We need to "avenge" these crimes through our legal process.

That was the point of the Nuremburg trials. It relieved the society and the families and friends of those who had suffered from the wrongs of the NAZIs of the need to take personal vengeance for crimes committed to them. Society took its vengeance through legal process. The torture pictures constitute evidence. Those responsible for the torture should be indicted, and the pictures should be entered into evidence.

[saigon68]

545. Cheney needs the perp walk

[Wizard777]

336. We have a right to know what our government is doing in our name.

[JuniperLea]

348. What BS

As if the rest of the world hasn't already whiffed our dirty laundry. We've all see the Abu Graib photos... I don't recall a terrorist backlash from those.

[BelgianMadCow]

396. About terrorist backlash

how about if someone invaded the US (illegally) and bombed your house while you were away. You come home to find the smoldering remains of your kids.

Now that is gonna get you some backlash. To call it terrorism would be very unjust.

Any photo pales in comparison. But an image has a big audience you could say. Well, quite some people have experienced the above for real (we don't do body counts though).

[JuniperLea]

397. But it is terrorism...

With the US being the terrorists.

[Bluenorthwest]

351. we must then assume the entire military and Government

to be guilty of the worst imaginable crimes. If they refuse to name the guilty, they wish to share the guilt amongst them. So be it. They are all rapsits and murderers and those who are not are willing to work with and cover up for the most brutal of criminals.
Covering up rape and murder is not acceptable. Only monsters do that.

[Stinger2]

355. When Cheney and Bush go on trial, Then they should be released to the Jurors!!!!!!!!!

[Grinchie]

358. Those Photo's must be pretty devastating.

This must be why Cheney is taunting the Administration to release the torture memos showing how successful they were, because Cheney knows that Obama can't without igniting a firestorm under the troops and undermine the current Chicken-Hawk builup for the next war in Pakistan.

Personally, we've already seen some pretty devastating photos out of Abu Ghraib, but the media had control over the populace at that time, and was able to buy several years of cover for Bush and his fiends. At this period, America is righfully outraged, and is demanding blood from Bush and Crew. But Obama continues to protect them, showing that he really has no say in the matter.

Just imagine the millions of people employed in Government that stay from one administration to the next, and you'll see why we have no change. It's a sham. It's the illusion of change. It's an illusion of Majority rule, because 51% of the people can dictate was 49% of the people have to do. That's not freedom.

[garybeck]

359. CNN LINK here:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/12/prisoner.photos/index.html

[GoldenOldie]

379. If the photos are as bad as Sy Hersch says they are?

I want each and every asshole who participated, from Bush, Cheney right on down to the Congressional Reps who supposedly function as oversight. It doesn't matter be they Repub, Dem or Indp, they all should be tried in International courts,as the war criminals they truly are.

What I truly fear, is that these horrific photo's, will so enrage the Iraqi's and Afghani people that they take it out on our troops, the ones who are right there and represent the US and what we have allowed the traitors to do in our name. Having a grandson in Iraq and a grand-nephew in Afghanistan, I fear for not only them but all of our troops once these photo's are shown.....I would like to think that this is being considered by Obama.

[LAGC]

418. Obama is turning out in many ways to be Bush-lite!

Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU, said the president's decision "makes a mockery" of his promise of transparency and accountability.

"Essentially, by withholding these photographs from public view, the Obama administration is making itself complicit in the Bush administration's torture policies," Singh said. "The release of these photos is absolutely essential for ensuring that justice was done ... for ensuring that the public could hold its government accountable, and for ensuring that torture is not conducted in the future in the name of the American people."

[mvd]

370. What could be causing the President to get bad advice from military officials?

I have a feeling they are covering their own hide, and as Commander in Chief, Obama thinks it might be better for the Courts to decide.

[choie]

384. What could be causing the President to ACT on bad advice from military officials...

cowardice, that's what. Obama is becoming another disappointment.

[Bette Noir]

380. This is not the change I voted for.

[polichick]

381. Apparently "transparency" only applies when the news is good.

[BelgianMadCow]

383. There are only three possible explanations:

1) Block to keep troops safer (debatable at best).
2) Block to keep the US population underinformed. Imagine the clamor that would arise from a release of rape audio/video.
3) Block as a cunning political ploy: announce block, get strong reaction, "reluctantly" unblock. Seem to have seen this one before.

Don't really believe 1, am afraid of 2, hope for 3.

[polichick]

386. It does seem that we've seen #3 before - I sure hope that's true here.

[BelgianMadCow]

413. The stated reason is #2 "endanger troops" it seems (from maddezmom's post upthread)

"The president "believes their release would endanger our troops," a White House official says, adding that the president "believes that the national security implications of such a release have not been fully presented to the court."

Still doesn't rule out deliberately inciting outrage so as to build public pressure, don't like to see it in print though.

[rhett o rick]

387. Best post here. I agree. Maybe (I hope) the President Barack Obama

is saying, "Hey everyone, don't look over here, this is too terrible to imagine. Please please don't look". "Well ok, if you insist. Remember I warned you not to look".

That'd be brilliant.

[mvd]

391. It's very possible

Personally, I won't be happy if they don't come out in some way. But Obama has used language such as "delay," not prevent. I'll see what happens.

[rhett o rick]

398. He has to let them out. He campaigned on transparency. nm

[mvd]

422. I was surprised by this reversal

I'm sure the military was making these arguments before. Something made Obama change his mind, and I don't know what exactly. The world already knows what we did. I don't see releasing the photos as doing anything but providing more evidence in investigations. Maybe Obama knows they will be released anyway during those investigations. :shrug:

[rhett o rick]

433. Yes I agree. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. nm

[ohio2007]

394. I very much doubt that releasing the photo's will see a drop in violence

and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in the rose colored glasses world to think the world decided to love us on 1/20/09.

Releasing pics will get the jihadi sympathizer seething and an uptick in the civilian deaths will rise faster then the futile attempts they make at timimg explosions to kill the well insulated "non civilians" in the same blast zones.

#2 Block to keep the US population underinformed ? Thats a non factor as the majority of americans already know "torture" occured and continues to ocure.


#3 is "change" you can see in action.

There is an undercurrent of people who would dance at the results of a surge in violence the pics would cause. Why? Oh, just in the name of gaining a few meaningless political points for a few weeks...

jmo

Obama is doing the right thing as the spring moves into the summer offensive when the troops will begin to make a show of force.

jmo

[BelgianMadCow]

403. A DROP in violence? Unlikely indeed. And on keeping the public underinformed

(not UNinformed) it's a very real possibility. YES, everyone or almost anyone knows about the possible/probable torture waterboarding debate. But limiting the debate to just that is leaving out a whole host of other atrocities. Surely you don't think everyone has read the Taguba report do you? Or Hersh's pieces?

I don't think the world started to love the US all over on 1/20/09 either. I know if it were my kids or family that died as a result of an illegal war and a continuing occupation, I'd still harbour a grudge. And obviously it fuels extremists as well. The war in Iraq will raise a whole generation of terrorists, regardless of some photos' release. US security has been compromised for quite some time. Cheney with "make us safer" really, I seldom use this but :puke:

Undercurrent of people? Are you implying I'm one of them? That would be absurd. I have no political points to gain and value all life on this planet.

"Obama is doing the right thing as the spring moves into the summer offensive when the troops will begin to make a show of force." I'm sorry but what's your point? That the block is good because there is gonna be more shock and awe and the release would somehow impact that?

[rhett o rick]

411. Bull shit. Noone wants increased violence. Do you think that trying to hid the truth will

keep the violence down? Bullshit. The world knows we did horrendous things and hiding the pictures will not make them forget. Quite the contrary. Hiding the truth is rarely the answer. Horrible things were done and we can't sweep it under the carpet. That sounds like what a republiCon would suggest. Let's get our dirty laundry out in the open and make ammends. Show the world that we know we screwed up and we are ready to go forward. To hide the evidence, especially when everyone knows it exists is wrong and un-fucking-American. The penalties can not be too harsh for those that authorized torture, carried it out and enabled it.

[LAGC]

424. What effect will NOT releasing the photos have though?

I mean, if we're worried about stoking pro-terrorist sentiment, just the fact that there are damning photos that the government won't release speaks mounds in and of itself, does it not?

[BelgianMadCow]

449. "there are damning photos that the government won't release"

The fact Obama is personally and openly discussing these pics gives the ISSUE press.

Imagine the number of dodges Bush would have come up with ending obviously with terra terra nine elevah:

"No comment on an ongoing investigation"

"I have to do everything in my power to protect the american pleople, which I have sollemelly pledged to do."

"Even if it would mean just one additional soldier killed, I cannot put at risk our Fine Military, and I dislike the political games some people play."

"We cannot continue to the beacon of Hope for Iraqis if we allow the behaviour of the very few to influence the errm ...well the view of the Iraqis can't be allowed to deteriorate. And I want to say this directly to the american people - your news is filtered, there is many excellent detainee treatments that is not reported."

"I will let history be the judge of our actions to protect our Freedom and our Country in the face of these evildoers."

"I have had to make choices. And they weren't always easy choices. It's hard work, all the choicing."

"Well I don't ask any of YOU to release all candid photos you have at home do I? hehehehe next question"

Now watch my drive.

[saigon68]

544. Now watch my drive.

I wonder what the Chimp's handicap is?

[McCamy Taylor]

388. Soft on torture is not acceptable. You either follow the law...or you are complicit.

None of us voted for an administration that was "open to debate/bipartisan/let's just move on" from torture . Where is the respect for the law? Where is respect for common human decency? Where are the values? Is money going to be the only thing that anyone in DC cares about? Sure, corporations want the U.S. to torture and kill---it furthers their own colonial interests to have people in other countries scared shitless of our government.

[ProgressIn2008]

479. Excellent post and dead on. I'm with the ACLU: this admin has made itself complicit

Even if I bought the super secret plan theories (which I don't), if we need a super duper secret deception maneuver to **follow the rule of law** then we need to think long and hard about the kind of society we've become.

[EndElectoral]

409. So much for transparency! Not showing these flies in the face of what we represent.I'm tired of this

[rainlillie]

415. Bush and Cheney put our troops in danger by torturing detainees...

President Obama doesn't want to release photos of detainees being tortured and I agree with him. Since evil Cheney is so proud of the success of the "program" why doesn't he want the world to see what he and Bush have condoned?

Sooner or later these photos will come out. If President Obama believes the photos will endanger our troops, then he must also believe that these people were tortured, therefore he should demand an investigation.

The right-wing parrots have a nerve to squawk about the photos, but they have very little to say about the torturous acts being committed in the photos. What planet are these people from?

[rainlillie]

417. We must put our emotions aside for a minute..

I want bush and Cheney held accountable for all the rotten , vile things they've done; but if I had a relative in the military I wouldn't want these photos released to the public. I would want them released to the Senate and to Congress and hope that they demand a special prosecutor be put in place.

[rhett o rick]

431. Fuck that. I have been told to put my emotions aside for too damn long.

Our troops are in danger because we allowed our government to do horrendous things in our name. Trying to suppress the details now is stupid. Now is the time for us to clean this shit up. I am truly sorry you have a relative in the military and I wish them the best. But you will never convince me that holding back the truth will make them safer. You said show Congress and hope (HOPE??) they will do the right thing. Bullshit, Congress has betrayed us time and time again. "I am mad as hell and not going to take this anymore".

[Blandocyte]

453. Totally in agreement

This isn't a matter of "emotion," it's a matter of law, if you ask me. If laws were broken and the pictures prove it, we should put aside emotion and start prosecuting.

You know, if the gov't thought I had pics on my cell phone that they thought were illegal, they'd be wiretapping that sucker like there's no tomorrow. But we citizens can't check on our gov't's activities? WTF?!

[droidamus2]

416. Protect the troops?

The excuse I heard for this is that if our enemies see these pictures it might put our captured troops at risk. This sounds like a major KYA by the military to me. They know that if we have to talk about this torture in the theoretical because we don't get to see that hard evidence it will be much easier for them to convince people it 'wasn't really that bad'. It is a big problem for new presidents in this country that they have to deal with people in the military and government that have had years to perfect their ability to convince people that exposing the crap they do is bad for the country. I was hoping that Obama had the balls to go his own way and let things fall where they may. I more and more see that he promises to do something and then goes behind closed doors that it might effect negatively and he comes out the other side with a moderated or opposite point of view. Overall I am real happy with President Obama but he has to realize that the vested interests in DC will fight tooth and nail to protect their own massive asses.

[rainlillie]

425. If the photos are released and more troops are killed

the right-wing parrots will blame him. He knows how horrendous these photos are and he also knows that crimes have been committed. It's time for him to step up to the plate and say that Bush and Cheney broke the law.

[droidamus2]

444. Your right

Unfortunately your right about the rightwing echochamber jumping on him if their released and troops are hurt. Obama needs to realize the conservatives/Republicans stock and trade is fear. If he starts making decisions based on fearing the political ramifications (read lies the Republicans will spread) then he is playing right into their hands. He has the political capital he needs to use it.

[rhett o rick]

468. Explain to me how more troops will be killed? Will the release of the photos make them shoot more

accurately? They are already dedicated to kill our troops. This is a bullshit answer, one that i would expect from Sean Hannity.

There is no excuse to hid information from the public.

[rainlillie]

530. Hold on!

Pakistan is on the verge of being a failed state. They have nukes. We don't want to fan the flames. Yes Bush and Cheney and anyone else involved in torture should be prosecuted, including Democrats if they knew what was going on. Obama made the right decision. I don't like it, but I think it's the right thing for the time being. The photos should be released to the senate and the congress.

[rainlillie]

532. I don't need to see photos to know that Bush and Cheney tortured people, hell..

We all know they did. So, what's the point? I just want them prosecuted.

[bajamary]

469. The pictures are out

The pictures are out and all over Australia and Europe.

What kind of coward is he.

[fascisthunter]

427. What a Cowardly Dishonest Government We Have

no wonder we are all in a colossal mess. Hiding the truth is what got us here... dumb move. Have fun getting people to believe you for your next election. I won't lie for you.... or anyone else.

[Dukkha]

437. Obama is now an accomplice and guilty of a cover-up

You can't have it both ways. You are either for or against defending the Constitution. And lying about the cover-up under the tired excuse to "protect the troops" is cowardly at best, a tactic as low as Cheney himself.

[Wednesdays]

443. K&R

:kick:

[Baby Snooks]

459. Where is our free press?

If Kay Graham were around, there'd be some investigative reporters trying to find a legal way to get the photos. And she would publish them. She might even look the other way if someone resorted to an illegal way just as long as the someone was not one of her employees.

She would do so because she would be horrified by the loss of our free press. And by a White House that again has placed itself as the "decider" in matters that it has no place deciding.

She was the last of the real publishers who were journalists at heart and she valued truth, and the right of the people to know the truth, above all else. It's a shame it didn't rub off on her children.

That's something that Obama doesn't understand. The right of the people to know the truth.

[scentopine]

484. Sucking at the teats of their corporate and government sponsors

There is no free press, and freedom is becoming just another word. We are all subjects in some sort of new corporate-government oligarchy where the only protest allowed is voting or not voting. We are like passive slugs.

[bajamary]

467. Manchurian Candidate.

Oh boy, the Manchurian Candidate strikes again.

I prefer his performance on the economy. Gold metal for this. (no pun intended)

Next performance winner is the "single payer" off the table of health care "reform". Silver for this , maybe even 30 pieces of silver.

Then I'd say this "yes you see it...oops, no you can't" torture photos gets a bronze metal.

Yep, he's one heck of a Manchurian Candidate.

[scentopine]

495. Gee, whose gonna get the supreme court slot?

I bet it will be a reform minded advocate for consumers and workers who will fight for jus.... LOL! Had you going, didn't I?

Based on what we've seen so far I expect it will be an extreme centrist conservative that makes wall street and conservative pundits comfortable because that's what's most important in this world.

Obama crushing hope like the tiny insect that it is...

[LynneSin]

472. I'm not thinking this is a bad thing

because what we might see could be horrible

[scentopine]

475. Hope? Nope. Just Rope-a-Dope.

And we are the dopes. Hear that? That's the sonic boom created by the sudden and synchronous collapse of the optimism and hopeful enthusiasm surrounding millions reform minded democrats. It was caused by a massive and instantaneous right shift in the Obama space-time continuum trapping us in a changeless state of being for at least another 4 years. Such strong gravity fields are even pulling in dense unmovable planets like Specterus Uranus.

Amnesty for torture, amnesty for Wall Street, amnesty for wire tapping, amnesty for health care exploitation, Wanna bet we'll get a new supreme court justice who gets high marks from wall street CEOs and "conservative" pundits? No takers?

[scentopine]

493. Note to DNC - Bad time to ask for more money from me

you might want to wait til this torture stuff blows over, and maybe wait til this wall street give-away clears out, and maybe wait til the whole wiretapping stuff settles down.

I can almost hear Obama now - "It depends on what your definition of change is..."

The good news is that with so much staying the same, he can run again as the candidate for change!

First four years - so focused on placating the right-wing ideologues, and so fearful of their scorn, he is unable to implement the reforms mandated by his election and continues down the path of deregulation and corporate influence and appoints a conservative "moderate" to the supreme court.

Second four years - as a lame duck, too irrelevant to implement the reforms mandated by his election, continues to develop policy sponsored by corporate interest groups and appoints a corporate friendly, extreme centrist to supreme court.

Retires into private life as a CEO of a wall street investment firm.

[RollWithIt]

476. I believe that President Obama has seen the photos and determined risk to US lives....

In other words, that if the pictures are made public hatred of the US will increase ten fold.

[scentopine]

489. Bull. They thought about that when they first said they would be released.

This is quid pro quo. Somebody made a deal or is blackmailing over the release. There is nothing but respect to be gained for admitting the truth, righting a wrong and demanding justice for the perpetrators.

Instead, Obama is coddling CIA and their golden contractors like little babies. Similar stance with Wall Street. Similar stance with Health care industry, Similar stance with wire tapping - there is a theme here and it stinks like shit. Outrage is more than justified. Anyone with a well calibrated moral compass should be feeling very sick we are watching hope and change disintegrate into business as usual.

But I am very much in agreement of whitehouse garden and new puppy which is what seems to matter to most dems these days.

[rainlillie]

531. ITA!

.

[NorthCarolina]

478. Outrage over this will help to suck the air out of Health Care protests n/t

[sellitman]

480. Best point yet!

Spot on!

[MasonJar]

481. How can he block them? The court ruled that the photos had to be release

Obama decided not to appeal the ruling. Now he is apparently listening to he generals in the field. The President should have done that earlier. No one wants to endanger our troops, so the Bushista cabal and crime family should have considered that probablity before it instituted torture without cosidering national and international laws, the honor and integrity of our nation and the safety of our troops and our citizens. These criminals must be brought to justice; we are already rightfully in disgrace. The world knows what we did. If we fail to act now, our fate is sealed and our disgrace will be permanent. The majority of the world is willing to give Obama a chance. He is taking every route to avoid any action against the former administration. That choice will soon lead the world and many of his supporters to disgust and mistrust. I am one of them. The crossroads are here and now. The future cannot be secured while the past is left rent asunder. It will be worthless. We are talking here about murder, rape, assault, and so many etcs. Did W ever give anyone on death row a second chance? None of those he sent to die reached the pinnacle of his abuse of law; by any measure W's lawlessness was 1000 times any seen since Hitler. If Obama is planning to try to reopen the case for an appeal, then that maay not suit me and the need to try the war criminals, but it is acceptable, but if he is planning another executive run against the Constitution's separation of executive, legislative and judiciary, as did his predeccesor, then he has lost me forever. My advice to President Obama is to check that sign at the crosswords and take Frost's "road less traveled."

[SWr]

520. variety

He has options ... prob. the easiest is to classify the documents under NS act.

No judge has the authority to declassify or order classified info released.

Right or wrong judeges are NOT the final authority here.

[marshall]

542. Can't the President over-ride the court?

The only other recourse is for Congress to step in and do something about it.

And can anyone really see Pelosi and Reid doing that?

[cushla_machree]

483. If they did nothing illegal

Then what is there to hide? Lets see them.

If they don't want to show them then obviously we must get to the bottom of this.

[RoccoR5955]

486. WTF HAPPENED TO TRANSPARENCY?!?!?!?!?!?!?! N/T

[onetwo]

511. How about the mountain of torture memos that were released?

Does that no longer count?

[RoccoR5955]

555. It only counts as part. Transparancy should be total or not.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[onetwo]

560. Complete transparency with respect to gov't matters is an impossibility for security reasons alone.

There are probably a million and one topics where the complete declassification of information would make the country "less safe" for a variety of reasons.

To demand that Obama meet a standard where he releases "everything or nothing" while declaring anything in the middle a disappointment is unfair.

[RoccoR5955]

556. It only counts as part. Transparancy should be total or not.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[balantz]

487. Out of sight, out of mind? And they'll keep on doing it. Some fucking change my ass.

Naziland U.S.of A.

[MetaTrope]

488. More proof that he's in the pocket of America's plutocrats

As if the media's fawning GWB treatment of him during the election campaign wasn't evidence enough.

[JackDragna]

499. It's time to say it...the president is not a friend of Democrats..

..or the American people. He is betraying the party.

[Name removed]

500. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stinky The Clown]

501. I'm sure he has a good reason for this

Can someone please tell me what that might be?


Anybody?







Beuhler?







Maybe a picture thread will help ........

[JackDragna]

504. He likely had a great reason..

..that suited his own purposes. None that served the people or advanced the cause of justice, of course.

[livefreest]

506. time to donate to the ACLU

they'll need all the money they can get to pursue this through the courts http://www.aclu.org/

[JustinL]

515. done

I just used the occasion to renew my membership.

[farmboxer]

509. Obama disappoints me once again. He also needs to give us health care

but the insurance companies will not allow him to do such.

[defendandprotect]

514. This event turned out a monster thread . . . that many seem to have forgotten to "Recommend"--!!!

[bottomtheweaver]

516. This is a big mistake.

I hope Mr. Obama figures that out and reverses this disastrous decision. If he's farming out his military policy to someone on his staff, he needs to stop counting beans with Tim and start doing the job he was elected to.

[Hubert Flottz]

518. "CHANGE"

Sounds more like more of the same old shit every day!

[TankLV]

523. This STINKS on so many levels!! WTF is Obama DOING/THINKING?!!!

This is now a spate of THREE or FOUR major decisions that I'm serious wondering WTF did I ever support Obama for?!!!

Now, I hope and pray, that Obama has something up his sleves, and is playing one hell of a "poker" or "chess" game with all these assholes - he's not a stupid man...

But I am far losing patience and my support supply is fast being depleted...

[apnu]

547. I read somewhere that Obama was briefed by his top brass and they told him...

... that releasing the photos will only incite an already unstable Muslim world and increase attacks against our troops in Iraq and the 'Stans.

They're right, to a point. Releasing the photos will give all the radical clerics advocating suicide vests all the ammo they need for the next 5 years of terrorist activity and recruitment.

However, the flip side of all this, is the raping of justice.

Obama had to pick his poison: help or hinder justice. Help justice and we (the whole West) face renewed assaults when we are trying to calm everybody down and think sensibly. Hinder justice by withholding the evidence and we cheapen our standing in the world and make a mockery of the (once) much respected American legal system.

Obama had to choose one course, and both courses equals total shit for everybody in the world.

It was a lose-lose situation for the United States. Thanks Bush, you motherfucker, thanks a lot.

[DS1]

536. And DU thought Cheney had to have his torture-porn

The right people need to see it, you don't.

[Joe Chi Minh]

541. Actually, when I think about it, I can see a conflict of interest. Short term versus long term.

A week in politics is said to be a long time, so maybe the heightened interest in the depravity of the former US torture regime, which would be world-wide, of course, would certainly be an embarrassment to the US in terms of their geopolitics; while in the long-term, bringing the culprits to book would, of course, earn the respect by the world. But in the meantime, why are they still maintaing the School of the Americas?

[apnu]

548. I believe Obama has a big summit coming up in Egypt in early June

He probably doesn't want the Muslim world pissed off and randy for violence when he gets there.

I'm not excusing his actions, I, frankly, don't know what to think of all this. I can see good reasons for holding the photos and good reasons for releasing them.

Hold the photos and you damage our legal system, our constitution, and the very fabric of justice. Release the photos and you fan the flames of the world conflicts making things much more worse than they are now. What would you choose? Sacrificing Justice or sacrificing lives (both military and civilian)

I suppose there is a third option, that is release them and pin it all on Cheney. Haul his ass into court and make him do the perp walk at the Hauge. I don't think anybody, including the Chimp, would mind if Cheney went up as the fall guy for Iraq and GITMO.

[Joe Chi Minh]

550. You don't think Cheney was the prime mover? I hadn't considered that.

It would be difficult to establish, I expect, as Bush didn't give the impression of being notably humane did he? Perhaps it was a joint endeavour. But basically, we're on the same page, I think.

[apnu]

551. I'm pretty positive that Cheney ran this country for 8 years.

And he fed Bush pretzels whenever he stepped out of line.

Of course, I have no proof of that. But I'm convinced that W was a puppet.

[Joe Chi Minh]

552. It's just occurred to me that the Adminstration may be at least as worried about the effects on the

morale of the US troops out there, and in Afghanistan. Not a welcome reminder.

[apnu]

554. Morale, IMO, is a funny thing.

I don't believe anybody but the troops themselves really understand it. Generals will say these photos will affect the troops morale. Bullshit, I say, the troops have TV, email, newspapers, they know torture happened. They know there are photos, they know, as much as we do about the situation. That something happened, something very bad, something against the Geneva Conventions and that the government is covering it up.

Any affects on morale of this thing, has already happened. The troops either were or were not affected by the story. They don't have to see the photos to be upset (or approving, you never know) about the situation.

What makes things bad for them, and our interests everywhere in the world, is inflamed insurgents. The threat of real and surprise attack at any moment gets worse when this stuff is out there. Now, that would have an effect on morale, but not the photos. I don't think the troops will be any more or less upset about them than they already are.

The photos are not a welcome reminder for anybody, but terrorists recruiting the weak willed and weak minded. Personally, I'd rather see them out there than not. Have them released, have Obama come out and condemn them. Have the Hague prosecute whomever they wish and put this shit to bed. The more it lingers, the worse it becomes for us in the long run. Better to admit the fuckup, let the heads that have to roll, roll, and move on from there. It sucks, but that's the only way to break from this stuff cleanly and get on with life.

We can't expect any other country or group to take us seriously if we conduct what most call torture, then cover it up, or kinda-sorta admit it and then pretend nothing happened. That neither wins friends nor influences people. We look cartoon-ish like the Soviets did when their whole country went to hell and they pretended it wasn't happening.

Still its a lose-lose situation for the U.S. Release them and we screw our troops and operations in Iraq and the 'Stans. Not release them and we are screwed politically, both nationally and internationally.

[ShortnFiery]

558. These photos will "shine a light" on the Chain of Command. Obama was so very WRONG when

he referred to the actions of "a few." At least given my knowledge of the Army's Military Police (MP) Units every ONE of those TORTURE PERPETRATOR SOLDIERS had "a squad leader" + "a platoon sergeant" + "a platoon leader" + "a first sergeant" + "a company commander" + "a sergeant major" AND "a battalion Commander." The foregoing covers ranks from Sergeant through Lieutenant Colonel.

EVER SINGLE INCIDENT, each of these people should have received at a minimum, rank reduction or relief of command.

This is the military and we take seriously "command responsibility" ... well at least on paper and at ceremonies.

You want to talk "good order and discipline?" IF WE DON"T investigate and discipline these torturers GOOD DISCIPLINE is in jeopardy.

In fact, I wonder IF there have not been numerous suicides and "fraggings" of antisocial leaders that NOW and CONTINUES to be covered-up?

Release ALL photos if for no other sake than the benefit of the soldiers who said "NO, I WILL NOT." How many of those soldiers were reassigned to other units - a career ender? How many of those soldiers, were tortured souls, and committed suicide than to partake in cruel treatment of their fellow human beings?

RELEASE THE PHOTOS FOR ALL THE INNOCENT SOLDIERS MAINTAINING THEIR MORAL COMPASS. RELEASE THEM NOW!

[Joe Chi Minh]

559. I think the medium or long-term view is generally, preferable, not just because it

will be essentially superior virtually by definition, but precisely because rascals/villains will always invoke the likely (at least they would claim as much) short-term effects to justify precisely such cover-ups, chicanery, villainy.

Unfortunately, the short term also happens to be the medium in which the most worldly-wise and covetous exist and operate - most notably, particularly these days, in the business and financial world, so even when their excuses are more than usually vapid, they would seem quite plausible to themselves. As they would say, in the long-term, we are all dead - as if that were a helpful insight in most circumstances - unless it concerned rendering immediate aid to poorer folk in desperate straits. Then their claim concerning the infinitely negative, long-term effects would be all together too dire to contemplate. Remember the poor need privation to motivate them to work hard, while the rich tend to claim most vociferously that they need rewards beyond the dreams of avarice. Or else they will depart our shores for a world eager to lavish richer rewards upon them.

I believe Michael Caine and Lloyd Webber have twice threatened to leave the UK on such grounds (higher income tax), but unfortunately to this day, no-one has asked them to put it in writing and have it notarised, so they are still here, as bold as brass.