Supreme Court to Hear White Firefighters' Case on Affirmative Action

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court hears arguments today in a Connecticut firefighters' civil rights case that has the potential to change hiring practices nationwide.

The court will weigh whether New Haven's decision to scrap a promotion exam because too few minorities passed violates the civil rights of top-scoring white applicants.

The discrimination lawsuit was brought by 20 white firefighters — one also is Hispanic.

The city argues going ahead with the promotions based on the test results would have risked a lawsuit claiming the exams had a "disparate impact" on minorities.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517448,00.html

---

It will be interesting to see how this one comes out. Really no winners though, no one has been promoted in the department in the affected pay grades while the case has worked it's way through the Courts.

David

[EFerrari]

1. Has anyone checked to see if their test is stupid?

How frustrating for all those guys.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Of course not. As long as white folks are the ones judging "reverse racism" cases....

White folks will always win. It's really a wonderful system we've come up with.

[notesdev]

4. Isn't it time...

... we stopped judging people on their skin color rather than the content of their character?

[EFerrari]

8. What does that have to do with administering fair tests?

[sarah FAILIN]

22. I would really like

People that are qualified to get jobs instead of people that are only hired because they fulfill the correct racial profile.

[Trajan]

124. After 400 years of suppression ....

Isnt it time we tried our best to correct the defective results caused by anti-black policies ?

Do you think enough has been done to correct the imbalances ?

I do not ....

[customerserviceguy]

131. So, it's fair

that the current generation of people needs to bear the cost for 400 years of suppression? I sure like how the current generation of males needs to bear the cost for 5000 years of chauvinism...

If anybody's wondering why racism and sexism still exist, this might provide a bit of a clue.

[Trajan]

132. The current generation of families of slave heritage

Still, by most accounts, bear the burden of their ancestor's suppression ...

I would consider the matter 'closed' when the percentage of such families living below the poverty line matches, more or less, the percentage of NON-slave heritage families living below the poverty line ...

Correcting the wrong though a corrective remedy would be a fair proposition.

Providing reparations for a previous harm does not 'induce' racism .... Male chauvinism is another matter entirely ...

Hatred induces racism ... Justice should not ...

[customerserviceguy]

139. I was born in Canada

is there a website that calculates just how much each white person should pay, taking into account things like number of immigrants (and their timing), and the number of Union vs. Confederate Civil War soldiers that are in one's family tree?

I want to see people of color live well, too. But if we handle this in such a naked way that takes from one group to give to another, expect resentment as a result. And expect the Repukes to capitalize on that resentment at every opportunity.

[Trajan]

140. This isnt about some naked money grab ...

I dont know where you got the idea that money was transferred from whites and given to blacks ... This notion DOES play into this 'race resentment' meme that you are promoting, and it is utterly false ...

It is a matter of providing EDUCATION, paid for by all citizens through the same public education funding mechanisms that have been in place for since public education existed.

The way for blacks to achieve parity with whites after 400 years of forced servitude is through education - and as long as they can be engaged within the public school system, being allowed into colleges and universities that for most of history refused entry to blacks - then black families will see their fortunes rise and better match those of their white neighbors ....

If laws and ordinances are color blind, and public education made available, then THAT is what is necessary, at the least ...

This isnt about a handout from whites to blacks, but about removing racist obstacles from the path to higher education ... A college degree is a sure path (generally) to economic success and social parity.

THAT'S what Im talking about ....

[customerserviceguy]

141. No, it's not a direct transfer of money from one set of people's pockets to another

but it's over promotions, and that almost always translates to more money. It's not going to be difficult for the Rethugs to make the point anyway. I'm not 'promoting' the meme, as you charge, but I am bringing it up. There are a lot of people in the mushy middle who took a look at their choices last November, and decided that voting for Barack Obama was not going to hurt them. You can bet there are a lot of wingnuts out there looking for excuses to tell them that they were wrong to think that way.

I'm very much in favor of building up crumbling schools in communities that serve people of color, that is the way to acheive a fair measure of equality in our society, President Obama agrees with me on this. I'm not sure why you went off on a tirade about higher education on a topic that involved civil service promotions, maybe you dusted off some old rhetoric from the Alan Bakke days (involving a charge of reverse discrimination in accepting medical school students), and simply forgot to change some of the stock phrases.

The only way that we acheive the goals of having a Democratic supermajority in Congress, and a Democratic President in the White House is to make sure that changes designed to bring up those in our society that have been disadvantaged is to be seen to be fair about it. Tossing out an exam just because it does not "fit" the preconceived "result" is pretty easy to cast as being less than fair.

[CTLawGuy]

6. so you believe that an entire test should be thrown out

for the sole reason that not enough minorities passed it?

[EFerrari]

7. You do know that tests can skew to white culture right?

It's a reasonable question.

[DissedByBush]

19. There are two kinds of firefighting

White firefighting and black firefighting?

Come on, might as well say a math test can be biased on skin color.

If too few minorities passed then that means there were no qualified minorities in the pool. Too bad, hit the books, try again next time. In the mean time promote those who did pass regardless of race.

[EFerrari]

25. Not about firefighting, about about test giving.

It would be the same with any testing situation, for christ's sake. If the girls always do better, if minorities always do worse, any time you get a lopsided result, you need to take a look at the test and the testing situation.

[No Elephants]

27. BINGO!

[notesdev]

32. You need a specific and coherent complaint

If some possible results are unacceptable, why test at all?

[No Elephants]

48. Not at all sure what you are trying to say.

[notesdev]

108. I'm saying that without a basis in reality

you sound like a person who judges people on their skin color.

Someone who complains about a result when he had no complaint before the result was known is engaged in an exercise known as "sour grapes".

[DissedByBush]

45. Is it a test or is it a feel-good exercise?

If minorities always do worse, then check your population as to why minorities do worse. Minorities, except for Asians, tend to do worse in the standardized tests in my kids' school. Does this mean the tests are biased? No. The tests are fine. But the minorities often are poor, come from one-parent homes or from cultures that don't value education. That is why they do worse, not the test.

You would have them dumb-down the test to fix this disparity. I would have them work on fixing what is in the kid, society and home that makes them do poorly on the test. I do not want to live in Harrison Bergeron's society.

[No Elephants]

47. How do you know the tests are not culturally biased again? Sounds as though you are simply

assuming that. It also sounds as though you are assuming that the tests at your kids' school have something to do with the test at issue in this SCOTUS case. Neither is a valid assumption.

BTW, I came from a very poor home. When I was ten, it became a one-parent household. As I posted a few minutes ago, elsewhere on this thread, I always tested in the 96th to 100th percentile on every single standardized test. I am white. IMO, every standardized test I ever took was biased culturally,

[DissedByBush]

114. The description is of a firefighting skills test

How do firefighting techniques differ between blacks and white?

I was also poor, single-parent, scoring high on standardized tests, end of 12th grade level as of 9th grade. The only thing I could consider cultural bias would be American history (what racists call "white" history), except then the only people it could discriminate against would be immigrants.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. I think it was the written portion of the exam they called into question.

[DissedByBush]

125. Yeah "What do you use to put out a petroleum fire"

and other such questions have white and black variations. No, they called it into question because it requires memorization. Blacks can't memorize. That's a new one for me. I'll tell the highly-qualified, professional black people I work with in my technical field.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

127. I didn't say they were right or wrong to call it into question.

Promotions to this level in the Fire Service are very competitive and quite possibly a one time opportunity for some. They pull out all the stops.

David

[EFerrari]

66. I don't think we need any more dumb around here. n/t

[Winterblues]

77. So if girls do worse on Math tests it must be the test's fault?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

87. If the results are always lopsided, a professional checks the test

to make sure it isn't.

[notesdev]

119. 2+2 = ???

Whatever you feel is okay!

[muryan]

80. This is firefighting, not jeopardy

If an applicant can't correctly answer the amount of heat his suit can handle then he shouldn't been wearing one. Putting in unqualified candidates only ends poorly.

[EFerrari]

88. And how does that relate to this discussion about testing?

[muryan]

97. What do you think a firefighter test entails?

[EFerrari]

103. Looks like you've solved the problem. You should call that veneu

immediately and let them know you have it covered.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muryan]

122. One would hope that snark

However from the general tone around here im not so sure

[One_Life_To_Give]

130. Determine Proper Discharge pressure for

400ft 1-3/4 in line
SM-30F Nozzle DIscharging 225 GPM
4th floor, tenament, room and contents fire
State losses due to friction, losses due to elevation and total pressure indicated on pump panel discharge gage.

State proper inductor ratio for using AFFF applied thru Low Velocity Fog Applicator

When would a Pompeir Ladder be employed in a fire?


The most likely part of a burning car to explode is? (Hint: It's not the gas tank)

[CTLawGuy]

33. I have heard it is possible

but I am skeptical, especially in this case.

[EFerrari]

67. Obviously we don't know enough about this situation. n/t

[snooper2]

60. wow

:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. The report I heard on NPR said there was testimony about the actual test and..

the testimony of one of the white firefighters that was part of the suit. He testified has several learning disabilities and studied 13 hours a day to try and overcome them. That was testimony from the lower court trials. Like I said no winners in this mess.

David

[EFerrari]

5. One of my cousins was caught up in a very similar deal here

about 15 years ago. There was some flap about the test and I don't remember how they sorted it out but he didn't get in. Too bad, too, because he was born to do that job. Big guy, smart, worker, good instincts and good with people, too. Oh well.

[No Elephants]

28. Absolutely correct. That's the unfortunate result of having enslaved a people and then

discriminated against them for a few centuries. There is no perfect way to even try to go forward, though I fear the Supremes will say otherwise.

Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas. :puke:

[AlphaCentauri]

70. I don't see in the article how the firefighters prepare for this test

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. They study on their own time. Here is the link to the NPR story.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103289178

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Delete.

[AlphaCentauri]

75. A possible solution would be to go back to the old classroom and workshops methods

where they can interact with the instructor and ask questions.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. It is quite possible they do that also.

We do for the Driver/Operator Exam due to the technical nature of the job and the math involved.

David

[petronius]

23. This is the second story I've seen on this, and neither mentioned any effort to determine

whether or not the test actually is culturally biased. It seems like that would be the obvious question. (In fact, it's the only question aside from whether or not the test is a valid indicator of job performance after promotion...)

[No Elephants]

29. Please see Post # 3.

[CTyankee]

102. My husband. He is a solid progressive, union member.

He does believe that the city's exam was fair. I have not seen the exam and don't know but he, until the recent layoffs, was an employee of the city of New Haven. He has seen it and thinks it was fair. I was surprised to hear this but he is no racist nor is he a covert rwinger. I don't have any specifics for you, unfortunately, just what I have heard from him. But take it from me, the guy is not prejudiced against any minority.

I will try to get more info, however...

[EFerrari]

105. Thanks, CTyankee.

:)

[ddss75]

9. I thought that we were moving past this

Obama showed that race should not be a factor. The job should go to best qualified person. If your child was being treated in a hospital, would you want the doctor that got in because he had the highest scores? Or would you want the guy who had mediocre grades, but got in because he was an under-represented minority.

[EFerrari]

10. How does this relate to the OP?

[ddss75]

11. it is relevant

the guys that score the best should get the job. race shouldn't be an issue, it shouldn't even show up on the application process. the fact that it is influences the application process in itself.

[EFerrari]

12. If the test is race or culture neutral, it shouldn't show up on the test.

[ddss75]

13. it has to show up somewhere

If it didnt show up, they would not have any way to quantify which races performed better on the test.

[EFerrari]

14. LOL That kind of analysis comes AFTER

the group takes the test.

[Gator_Matt]

15. Race neutral?

There are differences in scoring depending upon race with the SAT. Is the SAT racist?

Perhaps a better question in the case of these firefighters is why the minorities scored lower and how it can be addressed. Simply throwing out the test because a quota wasn't met is ludicrous without explicit evidence of a tainted test.

[EFerrari]

17. Right, just as letting the test stand without analyzing it

for bias would also be ludicrous.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. I would agree with that.

Of course it would actually have to be analyzed not just thrown out because not enough of any certain people passed.

David

[Dr. Strange]

64. That's what's so tricky about this particular situation.

The city went through a lot before the test, in an attempt to make sure it was unbiased. The only reason the test is being ignored is because of the results. They're not going back to analyze the test, because even if it is determined to be completely fair, the city doesn't want to be sued on the basis of the test results.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5glt1tqOv1o8H6STNon8CzMS7ET3AD97L103G0
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124035774411441127.html

This could be a HUGE case, because it goes right to the heart of the "equal opportunity" vs. "equal outcomes" debate.

[No Elephants]

31. Do you have evidence that the SAT is race neutral? And affirmative action is not ludicrous.

I am just asking, re: the SAT, not challenging. I have no idea, one way or the other, if the SAT is race neutral or not these days. It sure wasn't when I took it, though.

[No Elephants]

34. Something "Should" be so, just because you say so? Affirmative action exists for

VERY good reasons. IMO, it "should" exist. Obviously, you disagree, but understand that is your opinion, not some absolute. objective truth of the universe, like the existence of gravity.

[No Elephants]

30. You have that wrong in so many ways. First, affirmative action does not help

only those who are, at best, mediocre. We had a lot of brilliant African Americans before Obama, yet NONE of them was President of the Harvard Law Review, let alone of the United States of America, before Obama, who was the fist of both.

Affirmative action is a remedy for past discrimination, not a remedy for mediocrity in minority populations. Or among women, another population finally given a break by affirmativve action.

Second, affirmative action may help you get into a school. It does NOT help you get out. So, no African American or other minority arge graduated from medical school without having met the same standard as the Craig's List Killer met. No women either.

Third, that blond blue eyed male doc coming toward you in the Emergency Room may have graduated dead last in his class, yet I bet you don't ask his grades or class rank when he approaches you.

And, if you claim that Obama's election to the Presidency proved that race should never be a factor ever again, since the country FINALLY elected one--count 'em folks, ONE--one in a row--minority to the Oval Office:

1/ Perhaps you were asleep between 2006 and 2008.

2/ You really have some thinking to do.

[notesdev]

35. The logical flaw

is the underlying assumption that racism is an exclusive property of white people, which is of course a racist assumption in itself.

[No Elephants]

39. Good thing I never made that assumption then, isn't it? However, the undeniable reality is

that the disempowering group that populated the soil on which this nation now sits power structure on this soil--the one that enslaved people, slaughtered them, disenfranchised them, denied them access to schools, jobs, politics, unions, etc. ad infinitum, was white male. Hence affirmative action for everyone but white males.

[notesdev]

41. The problem with that theory

is that the experience of your typical white male in this day and age is that he is the one discriminated against by official acts of government and by private organizations at the behest of government.

Isn't it time we stopped making such distinctions among ourselves and started viewing each other as human beings, as MLK exhorted us to do?

[No Elephants]

52. What "theory?" It's historical fact. And, there is no perfect solution to

centuries of wrongs done by white males to women and minorities. It's a hoot that you and some others think the past all goes away if white men have to suffer for the blink of an eye even a fraction of what they inflicted on others or centuries. The wrongs of the past have consequences in the present. Affirmative action attempts a remedy. It's nowhere near enough to even the playing field after all that went down, but but no one has come up with anything better so far. And it's not perfect, but do you have a more fair remedy for the present effects of centuries of wrongs?

[Romulox]

68. So many things wrong with what you write...

"It's a hoot that you and some others think the past all goes away if white men have to suffer for the blink of an eye even a fraction of what they inflicted on others or centuries."

Problem number one: the average lifespan of a male in this country is 70 odd years. Nobody has inflicted anything on anyone for "centuries". Individuals are responsible for their own actions, and no one else's. What you describe is known as "blood libel".

Problem number two: White women are the result of a pairing between a white man and a white woman. It's illogical to suggest your gender excuses you from the collective guilt you yourself want to ascribe to "white males".

A little hypo will make this clear: Let's say your father was a powerful (and oppressive!) white male (your mother, of course, was blameless!) Let's say that when he dies, he leaves you, a white female, a decent inheritance derived from his ill-gotten gains.

Now let's say that I was raised by a poor single mother. Perhaps she even worked for your (admittedly horrible!) father.

Now explain how I, a white male, am guilty of oppressing you (for centuries, no less!) while you, a white woman in possession of ill-gotten gains, are blameless.

I'll take my answer off air! :hi:

[DaDeacon]

83. You are joking right ?

I'm just saying your number one ALONE is incorrect as state sponsored apartheid just ended in the US in the Late 60's, well within you 70 year time line...But you are joking right?

[Romulox]

85. Of course I am not.

"I'm just saying your number one ALONE is incorrect as state sponsored apartheid just ended in the US in the Late 60's"

I wasn't born in the late 60s, for one. For two, the point about individuals being responsible for their own actions stands. The poster I responded was not speaking about the culpability of the US Government, at any rate--solely "white males".

"But you are joking right? "

Of course I am not. Please "demolish" my points if you can. If you can't, type "you are joking" a few more times and call me a name. :hi:

[DaDeacon]

94. well OK ....

Problem number one: the average lifespan of a male in this country is 70 odd years. Nobody has inflicted anything on anyone for "centuries". Individuals are responsible for their own actions, and no one else's. What you describe is known as "blood libel".

****Answer 1******

I have addressed this issue in my last post but let me expand on it to further help you understand my position. You present that "Nobody has inflicted anything on anyone for "centuries"'and that "the average life span of a male in this country is 70 odd years" These two facts are incorrect as to juxtaposition, a lack of generational fault. As I previously stated " state sponsored apartheid just ended in the US in the Late 60's" during, before, and after this time physical, economic, political and mental harm had been and continues to be committed against the Americans of African decent. The taking of property rights and further economic disparity directly resulting from institutional racism have directly put current living and yet to be born members of this race in a step behind many born during the same time period with what one might consider "even playing field". In that very way IF you are of Western European background your ARE given the benefit, of if nothing else a fist round bye at the most a head start to the finish. You

Problem number two: White women are the result of a pairing between a white man and a white woman. It's illogical to suggest your gender excuses you from the collective guilt you yourself want to ascribe to "white males".

A little hypo will make this clear: Let's say your father was a powerful (and oppressive!) white male (your mother, of course, was blameless!) Let's say that when he dies, he leaves you, a white female, a decent inheritance derived from his ill-gotten gains.

Now let's say that I was raised by a poor single mother. Perhaps she even worked for your (admittedly horrible!) father.

Now explain how I, a white male, am guilty of oppressing you (for centuries, no less!) while you, a white woman in possession of ill-gotten gains, are blameless.

******Answer 2:******

The male female thing is a whole bag a worms that That I will abstain from baring this one point.
The power structure in the US was not intended for other members outside of white male land owners. Many have worked to expand this but to believe the work is done because at least we can all enter the rat race is a bit silly. I would never assume that you really believe that gender rights or made up, let alone that the power structure in the US never separated persons down a gender line.

p.s. my great grand mother on my mothers side was a "Surviving " slave. She actually told my mother she couldn't do to college once when she was a school girl. Why? "Because little nigger girls can't learn that smart." My mother now a Department head at Emory didn't listen.

[Romulox]

95. You are arguing a point I didn't make.

Nobody is arguing that institutional racism has not existed in this country, or that it does not continue exist (to our shame as a nation.)

It does not follow from this that "white males", regardless of their individual involvement, are culpable for this institutional racism based on some bizarre gender/racial intergenerational guilt (which doesn't attach to white women for some self-serving reason.) Which is the point the poster I was responding to was trying to make.

"The power structure in the US was not intended for other members outside of white male land owners. "

White women are descended from these self-same "white male land owners".

"p.s. my great grand mother on my mothers side was a "Surviving " slave. She actually told my mother she couldn't do to college once when she was a school girl. Why? "Because little nigger girls can't learn that smart." My mother now a Department head at Emory didn't listen."

That's a wonderful story. My father didn't finish high school.

[DaDeacon]

98. You can bring a horse to water...

If in a race others in the same race start behind you you will win, if all the parties are for the most part equal. That's all I'm saying. So unless you can start as a minority you ARE the recipient of an "intergenerational guilt " and that's OK. I'm in it to win it, and if that means me and mine have to to twice as good to been seen as your equal then it is what it is. YOU need to stop denying any advantage to being a white male in western society. It's not ignorance it's just a lie. If you need to sober up some, READ THIS BOOK from an ex co-worker of mine @ the AJC Doug Blackmon who just won Pulitzer Prize http://www.slaverybyanothername.com/the-book/

Second It doesn't mater if white women are decedents they weren't meant to be in the power structure. Read the constitution, the same one that said I'm 2/3 a man. The right to vote wasn't given to the "girls" of those in power. (the constitution not it's amendments)

[Romulox]

109. Again, you are arguing a point I didn't make...

I admit the continuing existence of institutional (and interpersonal) racism. It is real, and I have observed it directly. Correcting this is not the same thing as punishing a person who is not guilty of perpetuating racism. White privilege exists; the above poster's diatribe about "white males" doesn't follow from this fact.

"Second It doesn't mater if white women are decedents they weren't meant to be in the power structure."

Of course it matters. Rich fathers have rich daughters. Poor moms have poor sons.

(Decedent means dead person, btw.)

[notesdev]

107. You condone what you call wrong by emulating it

If discrimination is wrong for others to engage in, it's wrong for you to engage in.

Martin Luther King would consider you with the same contempt in which he held the KKK.

[christx30]

120. How far back should we go

to get social "justice"? I mean... no one that is alive in the united states today has held anyone of any race as a slave, being that slavery was outlawed in this country after the Civil War.
So how far back should we go in order to make up for slavery over a hundred and 40 years ago.
Should the government of Egypt give reparations and give preferential treatment to the Jews to make up for the slavery that Moses freed them from? If you are still hung up on something that that happened to ancestors of yours, then will anyone EVER be over anyone?
And what about the black people that are descendants of the blacks that held and sold other blacks as slaves? Should they get the preferential treatment as well? Or are they excluded?

[Joe the Revelator]

136. Reread what you wrote there. How can you honestly say that isn't racism?

I did not enslave,slaughter,disenfranchise or deny access to ANYBODY but because my skin is white and I have a penis you feel that it is ok to exclude and discriminate against me. That is the very definition of racism, and it makes me sick that some people think that way.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. you're bringing a lot of clarity to an issue that's usually just a giant flamefest

thanks!

[Gormy Cuss]

128. If the guy with the mediocre grades still passed his exams then yes, he deserves preference

under affirmative action. If he's incompetent then he doesn't qualify for affirmative action.

[McCamy Taylor]

16. Unless someone can prove that test taking ability is directly correlated with ones ability to

fight fire, I say that any test used to determine raises or promotions has got to be gender/race/ethnicity neutral. You determine that by giving the test and seeing if there are skewed results that can be explained by demographic differences. If a skewed test is used when those administering it know about the problem, then there is legitimate grounds to claim bias.

Don't forget, several generations of Blacks were denied the right to vote, because they could not pass a "test".

Also, many so called aptitude tests only measure a person's ability to....take tests.

[EFerrari]

18. My IQ went up by a very surprising 40 pts between 1st and 4rth grade

because I'd had more experience with speaking English. Or, maybe more experience taking tests. lol

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. The test was for Captain and Lieutenant so a good portion was likely leadership and tactics.

[No Elephants]

40. Or someone's view of what constitutes leadership. I wonder if women had a hard time with it, too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. Every Fire Department test I've ever taken was based on NFPA and IFSTA manuals.

Our test applications include a list of the source material for the test.


David

[DissedByBush]

21. Statistical analysis is flawed if you don't control

Simply giving a test and declaring it biased if too many minorities failed is not valid.

What if the pool of minorities was on the average less educated or motivated than the average white person in the pool? You must control for that. How do you control? Give a test? We're back to the beginning.

You can tell if a test is biased by looking at the questions. It should be easy in a technical test such as this. Bias is only a possibility if it strays from the actual subject of firefighting, and I doubt it does.

"Don't forget, several generations of Blacks were denied the right to vote, because they could not pass a "test"."

It was a little more complicated than that and not even close to the same situation. Here we have the same test given to all under the same conditions. Back then brain-dead easy literacy tests were given to whites if at all, while blacks got long, hard tests and often even had to take down dictation from the fast-speaking, mumbling white election official.

"Also, many so called aptitude tests only measure a person's ability to....take tests. "

The guy suing has a learning disability in taking tests, and he busted his butt to be able to do well on this one. Question: How many of the minorities who failed studied 13 hours a day?

[No Elephants]

42. You're mentioning ONE white guy who studied that way because of a specific learning disability, then

asking how many members of minority groups studied that way?

Do you see the errors in that?

[DissedByBush]

46. He is the one suing

So he is the one I mentioned. Appropriate, I believe.

I mentioned that because you mentioned that test often measure the ability to take a test. This guy didn't have much test-taking ability yet he worked so hard studying that he was able to pass anyway. Obviously the test is difficult. I would want that for my firefighter captains.

Race biased? I don't know, does it contain any secret white knowledge I don't know about?

[No Elephants]

49. It was not mentioning him that was the flaw in your post. It was the question that you asked

after you mentioned him.

I see the answer to my question is no, you don't see the errors.

You want "hard" tests for you firefighter captains? Yes, there are skills, reflexes, thinking, etc. involved, but it is not neurosurgery. While on the subject, though, maybe I want a firefighter captain who doesn't have to study 13 hours a day to pass a test. A lot of quick thinking/reacting IS involved and we don't know if this guy is capable of that or not.

However, we don't know whether most of the population would consider the test in question difficult or not. The issue is whether it is biased in some way. That does not necessary correlate to easy or difficult. All questions to which I already know the answer are easy for me.

I don't understand your sarcasm about bias. If you are assuming that a test cannot be race biased or culturally biased or even gender biased, then your remark reveals that you don't know much about the subject of bias in standardized tests. Lucky for you that you can joke about it, though.

[Bacchus39]

51. it is biased against those not prepared for it n/t

s

[No Elephants]

53. Yawn

[Joe the Revelator]

137. The response of someone who has be throughly eviscerated in this thread

[DissedByBush]

115. Test taking doesn't measure quick thinking

Some people do have a problem taking tests. They may be very intelligent but they just have a problem taking tests. I believe one of the things they said was biased was a requirement to memorize things. WTF? Blacks can't memorize as well as whites? Who's the racist here?

I will admit there is a cultural bias. Some subcultures on average don't value education very highly, while others do. In general the people from the former won't do well on tests and the latter will. If tests have a bias against minorities, then why do Asians score higher than whites on average? Are the tests biased towards Asians and against whites?

[sarah FAILIN]

26. On testing...

If my son does poorly on his science test, I'm not going to wonder if it was the tests fault, I know it would be because he didn't study well enough. Testing on a specific set of material judges how well you learned the material and that isn't going to change no matter what your color is. Earth is still basically round no matter if you're a white kid or a black kid taking a science test just as 2x2 will always equal 4... I will agree that IQ type tests can be culturally skewed but standard tests on a particular subject aren't IMO. People just need to study the material better.

[Nevernose]

38. I've seen cultural bias in subject specific standardized tests very recently

I've seen cultural bias in subject specific standardized tests very recently. Our state administered their high school math proficiency exam last month, and one of the questions began "Venus and Serena Williams were playing doubles tennis..." (moving on to some word problem). I work at a large urban school, largely black and Latino, and after the test the first question I was asked was "Mister, who the fuck are Venus and Serena Williams? And what the fuck is tennis? Has anyone in this room ever even been on a tennis court?"

Now, I'm certain the authors of this test thought that they were consciously trying to be as multicultural as possible by using African-Americans as examples, but were inadvertently just as culturally biased. You may be thinking "big deal, where's the cultural bias," but asking kids in this neighborhood about stuff like that would be similar to me giving you a math problem that began "Krrgyz and Oolo were fermenting yak's milk..."

As far as the firemen's test is concerned, it's kind of hard to imagine it being culturally biased (you either know how to put out a fire or you don't), but as far as standardized, subject-specific tests are concerned, it's very easy to accidentally bias them away from a particular group.

And just as a general note, since I have to go to work now, I'd like to add that most bias, testing or otherwise, skews more towards SES than race. While racial justice is still important, it's not nearly as big a problem as economic justice.

[MellowDem]

58. Good response...

Especially this:

"And just as a general note, since I have to go to work now, I'd like to add that most bias, testing or otherwise, skews more towards SES than race. While racial justice is still important, it's not nearly as big a problem as economic justice."

I see this in my school as well. And the example you quoted doesn't seem to be indicative of cultural bias so much as economic bias. Either way, it shouldn't impede the students answering a math question too much. You don't need to know what tennis is to do the problem. And considering these are Standardized Tests, there will always be people who do not fit into the "standard" US student profile and therefore will experience some form of bias while taking the test. Just one of the inherent problems of standardized testing.

[Bacchus39]

79. yeah, and we know all white kids play tennis and know who Venus and Serena are

I'd love to know how the firemen's test was biased.

Venus and Serena Williams were playing tennis when an enraged fan through napalm on at them. Whoa, wait a minute?? what is tennis and who are Venus and Serena since obviously that is so critical to how the firemen would respond to the incident.

[Nevernose]

117. I believe I said that the fireman's test probably wasn't biased.

As I said in my earlier post, you either know how to put out a fire or you don't. My reply was to the statement that there isn't ever bias in standards-based tests.

[sarah FAILIN]

91. I don't see the bias just in the names

Using tennis could POSSIBLY be causing cultural bias but it would depend on the problem asked. Say the question is that they played for 2 hours starting at 10, had a 30 minute break followed by 2 more hours of play..what time did they finish for the day? That is a simple math question that could just as easily be done by a kid in an urban school as anywhere else IF the kids are truly studying. You don't have to know how to play tennis to do math and my kids could easily do a similar problem if it were talking about milking yaks or whatever. It sounds to me the kids were "shining you on" especially if they said the exact words you used. Don't bother asking me about what you add to the yak's milk to ferment it though unless you want to give me a tutorial ahead of time, that would be as culturally biased as asking your urban kids how to keep score for Venus and Serena.
When I was in school, my math teacher taught us to just ignore any information in a word problem that didn't relate to the actual problem because she said it was just trying to confuse people by giving more information than you needed. She would make up names like schwizzlemackers instead of regular names in word problems when she made up tests just to be entertaining and it was the only class I still remember enjoying. Maybe we need to take this approach with today's kids instead of worrying about Venus and Serena.

[Nevernose]

118. That's an excellent idea.

And a lot of math teachers don't understand that they're really READING teachers. Teaching someone to understand a word problem isn't much different than teaching someone to read, period. Math itself is just a different alphabet for the same (usually English in the US) language.

[DatManFromNawlins]

110. That isn't racial or cultural bias

It's a teacher's lack of ability in getting his/her students to understand how to do word problems on a math test.

Racial or cultural bias would be asking specific questions that have specific answers that someone not familiar with that particular culture will have a disadvantage in answering due to needing to know outside information about the problem.

Asking a New Yorker what a cochon de lait is would be a culturally biased question. Asking a white kid what Kwanzaa is without explaining it to him in class would be a culturally biased question.

Asking a math question about Venus and Serena Williams is very much NOT culturally biased, because who they are has no bearing on the question or the answer. Had they been properly instructed by their teacher, they would have known that the subject matter of math problems depends on the numbers, not who represents the numbers. Neither are questions where you have to read a passage and then answer specific answers about the content of the passage.

Black kids don't score lower on standardized tests because of cultural bias. They score lower on standardized tests because they're generally poorer than white kids and more likely to have a single parent with a poorer education than other racial groups who will have to work two jobs just to make ends meet. People acclimate to their communities.

It still doesn't mean that the tests are culturally biased. They are what they are. Standardized.

I'd rather spend more money giving the underprivileged children the extra help they need in school then changing the standards for the tests.

[No Elephants]

50. And you say these things based on what? Have you studied the subject of bias in

standardized tests, even a little? Doesn't seem like it.

[sarah FAILIN]

84. I said STANDARD tests, not STANDARDIZED...

I'm talking about a group of students sitting in class all week long with their teacher and either paying attention to the lessons and passing the tests on the material or choosing to goof off and not doing so well on Friday. It is the fault of the student if they are exposed to the lessons and choose not to study. It's not the tests fault that the kid next to you has some really cool erasers the two of you were playing with instead of paying attention. I'm not talking about the SAT's or anything like that. If you want to learn the material, you study it just as you would if you were taking a test to be a firefighter. Information doesn't fall into one's lap without putting the work into it and that goes for every child or adult no matter their color.

As for me studying bias in standardized testing, I haven't gotten my degree but I am involved in my husband's practice. He is a therapist and as part of his practice he does psychological and IQ testing, lol! Little hint, never ever take a psychological test... No matter how sane you think you are, very few people that are required to take one of these tests come out showing no elevations. I like to think it's because they're most all in the court system that causes the skew but we won't even pretend to answer the questions ourselves.

Really, you were a bit rude with your response...

[No Elephants]

36. I agree. The ability to do well on a standardized test is exactly that--nothing more or less. And

I say that as someone who has always done jaw droppingly well on standardized tests. I often could not believe my own scores because I knew what my reality was, especially in math and science. Yet, I'd score somewhere between 96th and 100th percentile, whether they were testing for IQ, aptitude or achievement.

As a result, my teachers and parents were always all over my case for not being up to my alleged potential. I was though, because my real potential was for doing well on standardized tests.

On edit:

P.S. I wish that I had been able to figure this out when I was a kid, so I could have answered people when they tried to make me feel ashamed of myself for "not trying."

[ShortnFiery]

37. Thanks to Senator Reid NOT filibustering Alito, we are doomed to right-wing Supreme

Court Rulings for years to come.

Thanks Harry. :grr: :thumbsdown:

[No Elephants]

43. Maybe, maybe not. A lot depends upon whom Obama and his successors appoint. So far

Obama appointed a corporatist so-called moderate. We need to keep up pressure for really progressive judges, not DINOS.

[ShortnFiery]

44. But we START with a deficit. Obama will not nominate anyone close to balancing out these right

wing nutcases who will be there for life. Like Darth Cheney, these right wing bastards must be part cyborg and thus, nearly immortal. :(

[No Elephants]

54. AGREED. We start with a huge deficit. That's why "moderates" are NOT acceptable. As

far as immortality--no. They are not superhuman, immortal or anything else extraordinary. They are just pampered POS's.

[No Elephants]

55. Anyone notice that, when certain kinds of subjects become the subject of a thread, low count

posters show up? I noticed it a couple of weeks ago, on a thread about the South/Confederacy. I have not checked the low count posters on this thread. Some of the low count posters on the South/Confederacy thread had joined DU years ago.

I guess some posters are interested in posting on a Democratic board only when certain subjects are under discussion? I wonder how they know when one of those subjects becomes the subject of a thread here.

:shrug:

[MellowDem]

56. The real question in the case is...

whether or not the test was biased by race. Seems like it would be pretty hard to do if it is a firefighter's test being taken by firefighters, but I don't know much about the test they take. But having racial gaps in test scores is not automatically indicative of a biased test. A lot of times it is indicative of the way things are in society. SAT and ACT test results constantly show blacks scoring lowest. But this can be explained by the fact that incomes in black communities are overall lower and home involvement with school is also lower, two huge indicators of school success by students.

The larger question is whether affirmative action is effective. From looking at the statistics, it is not. It's a pretty crappy system. Instead of addressing the issues that cause racial gaps in the first place, such as poverty, we try to patch it over by simply lowering the bar for minorities to get in. And it hasn't helped minority communities. We are focusing on the wrong end of the problem, on the effect and not the cause. And we are sanctioning racial discrimination while doing so. Affirmative action is the easy way out of addressing racial gaps. It's time to look at the causes.

[No Elephants]

57. Things need not be mutually exclusive. BTW, we've looked at the causes for decades. And, truth be

told, a lot of them are obvious and never required that much looking to begin with.

If only white males cared this much about discrimination against women and minorities between 1607 and today! We would not be talking about remedies today.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Two wrongs don't make a white.

BTW, thanks for proving the point of Post 55.

[MellowDem]

59. Post #55...

You mean the childish post #55 that harps on "low-post count" users and attempts to pigeonhole them? Yeah, that guy is a real winner. Nothing like an internet forum bully who can't discuss an issue but rather only discuss the posters he disagrees with.

But you're right, the causes are obvious and have never been addressed. Then it's not surprsing when year after year racial gaps continue (or even grow!). You know what other gap has been expanding recently in America? The economic one. There is a connection.

But I agree, and if only black males hadn't been willing to sell their peers into slavery in Africa. Oh, what a world it would be!

[MellowDem]

62. Nice editing...

except usually when you edit a post to make yourself look less bigoted, you don't leave in bigoted language.

So instead of discussing the issue, you would rather attack white males of the past (not to mention their damn descdents of the present). Truth is, history happened and now we must deal with it. You can be an irrational "white male" hater and refuse to look for a solution, or you can be rational.

"Yeah, yeah, I know. Two wrongs don't make a white." But they do make a bigot.

[Romulox]

69. I'm waiting for an explanation as to how white women escape racial guilt

White women are descended from the dreaded white male, of course!

[Joe the Revelator]

138. You are a disturbed person

In the same breath you say that white males of this generation are on the hook for discrimination dating back to 1607 and in the next you make a smarmy, thinly veiled comment like "two wrongs don't make a white".


Again, I ask, who is the current racist?

[EFerrari]

74. Affirmative Action doesn't really work that way.

It's not "lowering the bar" in the way you imply. For college applicants, for example, it can mean compensating for deficits in extra curricular activities that colleges weigh when looking at applications that are otherwise on par academically.

And here's a clue: compensating for institutional discrimination isn't discrimination.

[MellowDem]

82. It's not institutional discrimination

keeping minorities out of college. It is societal ills such as poverty which disproportionally affect minorities due to past, not current, discrimination. The sooner we realize that, the better. And while it does not always mean 'lowering the bar', often times it does. Either way, the minorities who mostly benefit from it are those who have "made it" already. Affirmative Action without economic consideration helps middle class blacks, not poor blacks. Those are the ones scoring the highest on the SAT and getting the best GPA.

[EFerrari]

86. I think you're misunderstanding the term "institutional discrimination". nt

[MellowDem]

92. You mean...

the way an institution is set up that inherently discriminates? Colleges do discriminate against the poor. You grow up in a community with lots of problems where education is not a priority, in a household (like many others) with a single parent who does not have time to be involved in your school life like other middle class families. Because of this, you have a huge disadvantage already at doing well in school and scoring as high on standardized tests as those who are richer than you. And colleges don't care. Unless you're a lucky one, the odds are stacked against you.

[Bacchus39]

99. believe me, only she knows what she means n/t

s

[EFerrari]

116. I've been working the poverty street for many years.

You are interpreting "institution" too narrowly. City policy is also an institution, Social Services is also an institution, etc.

[Romulox]

90. You'll find most supporters of raced based AA are ADAMANTLY opposed to class based AA

For obvious reasons: the current Affirmative Action system works to the benefit of the ruling classes by cementing their power and tamping down resistance to the social-darwinism of our present economic system.

[kwassa]

76. What statistics do you have to show affirmative action is ineffective?

You seem to have a misconception about affirmative action

http://affirmativeactionawareness.com/Misconceptions.aspx

Affirmative Action does not mean giving preference to any group. In fact, it stands for just the opposite. Included in the concept of Affirmative Action is the idea that all individuals must be treated equally and that a position should be given to the candidate most qualified. However, a hiring committee MUST make a good-faith effort to create a pool of candidates which reflects the number of women and minorities who possess proper training for the position. Once the qualified candidates are identified, a candidate's ability to provide cultural diversity to a department, to serve as a role model, and to offer a range of perspectives should be major elements in the evaluation and selection progress.

[mvd]

81. Right

Thanks for providing that.

[MellowDem]

89. Your link wasn't working.

Either way, your definition leaves a lot of wiggle room that basically allows for people who hire to "lower the bar" by not hiring the most qualified people, just people who are qualified enough to fulfill the position. In all reality, I am all for considering diversity (smartly) when hiring. It's a rather subjective idea, but I understand that. But what I really don't like about Affirmative Action is that to many it has become THE tool to close racial gaps, and it doesn't. It's not effective and it has us ignoring strategies that will close the racial gap. Having universal health care would do more to close racial gaps than Affirmative Action ever will.

As for the statistics, look at Table 14:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/perindex.html

The percentage of poor people who are black started off around 30% and has recently(and disproportionally) been hovering around 25% since the Civil Rights Movement. To me, any of the positive change that has been made can largely be attributed to anti-discrimination laws and the repeal of Jim Crow. Affirmative Action has done little to nothing to close the racial gap in my opinion, from looking at those statistics. And looking at the percentage of the poor who are white, which has remained fairly steady as well, the image I get is a society that has very little economic mobility. Once you're poor, you will stay poor. And the only demographic that is consistently growing (Hispanics) as a percentage of the poor is due to increasing population.

[kwassa]

93. The link works fine for me ... and ...

I think you are dealing in a number of broad unsupported assumptions, without support.

1) That employers lower the bar to comply, you have provided no support for this assertion, which is of course the fundamental attack position on Affirmative Action. You assume that AA hires are less qualified.
2) That is sole tool used to close racial gaps, which is quite false. There is much activity around the country to close the achievement gap in public schools between the different racial groups. EEOC regulations also help to change the culture of how people are hired, and as such, served to raise consiousness everywhere about hiring desicions. Job training programs help make poor persons more employable. Earned Income Tax Credits and other tax incentives keep more money in the pockets of low income earners.
3) The tables you referenced show black poverty declining from 31.3 % in 1966 to about 24.8% in 2007, which, while not huge progress is progress. It is a steady decline, too.

This table shows black poverty declining from 55.1% in 1959 to 22.7% in 2001.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

[MellowDem]

112. In reply...

1. Affirmative Action would not have to exist if AA hires were the most qualified. Think about it. You could say that they don't lower the bar as long as one minority fits their minimum requirements, but of course where they set their minimum requirements is going to be somewhat dependent on making sure they meet their diversity obligations. AA hires are by definition not the most qualified, if they were, it wouldn't be AA. The fundamental flaw with AA to me is that it mainly helps minorities who have "made it" and does nothing to permanently improve the lot of all minorities. It's why Asians are often not included as part of affirmative action, which is smart, but it also means that those minorities most able to take advantage of AA are middle or upper class minorities. I don't think that is a smart or fair system.

It's an incredibly inefficient and ineffective system for closing gaps, not to mention controversial. Who wants to get passed over for something because of their race? Not exactly something that helps race relations or anti-racist efforts. And it's not even like it's a "sacrifice" the passed over person makes, because AA mainly helps the best qualified minorities the most, who themselves are usually among the best off in their communities. And it's not a permanent fix at all, it's an artificial one. One pretty well off minority is given the job and the community they come from still has the same problems and the vast majority living there still will never have a chance.

If we are going to use government sanctioned racial discrimination, it had better be for a real good reason. Considering AA is ineffective at closing gaps and inherently favors the wealthier minorities, I don't think it is near a good enough reason.

2. I never said it was the sole tool, just that some see it as the main tool.

3. I noticed that decline, which hasn't been quite steady if you notice, but I attributed it to civil rights victories and other factors rather than Affirmative Action.

As for the table you show, that's not quite the right table to be looking at. That shows the percentage of blacks living in poverty, not the percentage of people living in poverty who are black, which is a better measure of the racial gaps in our society. So while only 22.7% of blacks are living in poverty in 2001, around 25% of all people in poverty in the US were black. Considering the standard of living has consistently been rising overall for the US (except in the last decade or so), it's not surprising that poverty rates dropped among blacks, especially after Jim Crow was repealed.

My opinion of why the percent of poor people who were black dropped from 30% to 25% is just that, an opinion. There are so many factors that influence that 5% drop, and I highly doubt AA had much to do with it over the many other factors present. There were rises in the standard of living overall, repeal of Jim Crow laws, better anti-discrimination laws that passed (and were eventually enforced), and then you have to consider the growing population of poor Hispanics, which will of course push down the percentage of poor people that are black.

[kwassa]

126. I think you are seeing AA as something other than what it is intended to be.

1. Affirmative Action would not have to exist if AA hires were the most qualified.

This is a false premise. This assumes that the qualifications are correct, when in many cases of historical discrimination they were not, but rigged in some way to prevent minority access to job and housing opportunities. This assumes that the qualifications are objective and race-neutral. It also does not call into question the impact that hundreds of years of discrimination in creating limited access for minorities to get qualified in the first place, due to lack of resources available to non-minorities

The fundamental flaw with AA to me is that it mainly helps minorities who have "made it" and does nothing to permanently improve the lot of all minorities.

I would also like to see you substantiate this claim. What AA has done is open doors that were permanently closed to minorities, which is historic and permanent improvement right there. AA is the enforcement arm of the Civil Rights Act, and only affects those state and private companies taking Federal money. It is not, and was never intended to be the the sole tool to close gaps, which is what you are representing it to be. You have an expectation that was never part of its plan. You seem to want to do away with it because it hasn't fulfilled your personal expectations!

I also don't know that it necessarily rewards the most well-off minority to start off with, either. That claim is quite a stretch on your part.

I can't find the link I had last night (different computer), it a law site on AA, but it showed tables of polls of blacks and whites, and very high percentages in both groups said that AA has not affected them in any way whatsoever.

[MellowDem]

129. Generally...

I look at AA as goverment sponsored racial discrimination. That is what it is, just like how "advanced interrogation techniques" are torture. I understand that AA has good intentions, but it doesn't make it right or effective. I keep seeing the same logic with those who defend torture and those who defend AA. I'm not making a comparison between the two, just pointing out the same logic is being used.

Honestly I don't know if there is any information that tracks who benefits most from AA, but it seems logical to me that it would be those most qualified minorities who usually already have economic or other advantages compared to their peers. That's not a stretch to me.

[snooper2]

63. Oh, and if somebody really wants to look at some of the types of tests

http://www.ct.gov/cfpc/site/default.asp

Commission on Fire Prevention and Control- Connecticut Fire Academy

The Commission on Fire Prevention and Control is making available Certification Practical Skills Examination Sheets in electronic format to more effectively distribute them to the Connecticut Fire Service and as a means to help ensure that all candidates for certification have had an opportunity to thoroughly review the appropriate skills evaluation sheets prior to particpating in a practical skills examination.

The links listed below will take you to the respective folder where the skills sheets are presented in Adobe pdf format and where they may be either reviewed on screen or downloaded and copied for either individual or widespread use. All sheets for a given level are presented.

Agency's and Entities that desire a complete set of skills evaluation sheets for any level but are unable to download and print the sheets locally, may contact Practical Skills Coordinator Ed O'Hurley, extension 223, in state toll free - 877-528-3473, or email [email protected] to request an electronic set on CD or a printed booklet.

Firefighter I skill sheets 2008

Firefighter II skill sheets 2008

Operations Level HM/WMD skill sheets 2008




FIREFIGHTER II SKILLS EVALUATION SHEETS
5.1.2.1A Donning PPE and SCBA 5.1.2.1, 5.1.2.1.(3)(C)
5.1.2.1B Doffing SCBA 5.1.2.1, 5.1.2.1.(3)(C)
6.2.1A Complete a Basic Incident Report 6.2.1, 6.2.1(B)
6.2.2A Communicate the Need for Assistance 6.2.2, 6.2.2(B)
6.3.1A Foam Stream Application 6.3.1, 6.3.1(B)
6.3.1B Fire Suppression – Open Pans of Combustible
Liquids (with water)
6.3.1, 6.3.1(B)
6.3.1C Open Liquid fires 6.3.3, 6.3.3(B)
6.3.2A Interior Attack – Below Grade 6.3.2, 6.3.2(B), 6.2.2, 6.2.2(B)
6.3.2B Interior Attack – Above Ground 6.3.2, 6.3.2(B), 6.2.2, 6.2.2(B)
6.3.2C Interior Attack – Grade Level 6.3.2, 6.3.2(B), 6.2.2, 6.2.2(B)
6.3.3A Flammable Gas Cylinder 6.3.3, 6.3.3(B)
6.3.4A Preserve Evidence of Cause and Origin 6.3.4, 6.3.4(B)
6.4.1A Vehicle Extrication 6.4.1, 6.4.1(B)
6.4.1B Cribbing and Shoring 6.4.1, 6.4.1(B)
6.4.2A Rescue Team Assistance 6.4.2, 6.4.2(B), 6.4.1(B)
6.5.1A Private Dwelling Inspection 6.5.1, 6.5.1(B)
6.5.2A Program Presentation 6.5.2, 6.5.2(B)
6.5.2B Prepared Documentation 6.5.2, 6.5.2(B)
6.5.3A Prepare a Pre-Incident Survey 6.5.3, 6.5.3(B)
6.5.4A Portable Power Plant Maintenance 6.5.4, 6.5.4(B)
6.5.4B Power Tool Selection 6.5.4, 6.5.4(B), 6.4.1(B)
6.5.5A Annual Service Test 6.5.5, 6.5.5(B)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. UPDATE: Link to NPR story, much better than the AP.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103289178

[One_Life_To_Give]

78. Question is how do the different portions of the test results compare

The testing included at least the Written and an Oral Board. (I would guess the rest of scoring was based on seniority, certifications, and training) One section such as the written exam could have a bias. But if the results/ranking are consistent across the different tests then it's a moot point. I would hope a apparent disparity between indicviduals doing exceedijngly well in the Oral and with many Certifications/Training classes doing poorly on the written was the cause. But I think the Hartford case casts a shadow over such.

[KamaAina]

96. The guy with the learning disability should have sued under ADA

instead of playing the race card, because it doesn't sound like he was given a reasonable accommodation.

Of course, in the Reagan/Bush court system, "reverse discrimination" suits tend to fare slightly better than those based on the civil rights of people with disabilities, for whatever reason.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. He didn't have grounds to sue under ADA.

[KamaAina]

104. Really? Specific learning disabilities are covered

and, as a government entity, the fire department is covered under Title II.

http://www.ada.gov/q%26aeng02.htm

Q. Who is protected from employment discrimination?

A. Employment discrimination is prohibited against "qualified individuals with disabilities." This includes applicants for employment and employees. An individual is considered to have a "disability" if s/he has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, has a record of such an impairment, or is regarded as having such an impairment. Persons discriminated against because they have a known association or relationship with an individual with a disability also are protected.

The first part of the definition makes clear that the ADA applies to persons who have impairments and that these must substantially limit major life activities such as seeing, hearing, speaking, walking, breathing, performing manual tasks, learning, caring for oneself, and working. An individual with epilepsy, paralysis, HIV infection, AIDS, a substantial hearing or visual impairment, mental retardation, or a specific learning disability is covered, but an individual with a minor, nonchronic condition of short duration, such as a sprain, broken limb, or the flu, generally would not be covered....

Q. Does title II cover a public entity's employment policies and practices?

A. Yes. Title II prohibits all public entities, regardless of the size of their work force, from discriminating in employment against qualified individuals with disabilities. In addition to title II's employment coverage, title I of the ADA and section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 prohibit employment discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities by certain public entities

Of course, as I mentioned, the Reagan/Bush courts have tended to interpret the ADA as narrowly as possible, which is why Congress passed the ADA Amendments Act last year -- too late, alas, for this firefighter.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

111. He passed the test and was getting promoted, he had no grievance until the test was thrown out.

[IDFbunny]

106. Reverse discrimination is necessary and legal

otherwise you have Jim Crow like employment challenges where most minorities will get fuqt.

[MellowDem]

113. There is no such thing as reverse discrimination...

it's just discrimination against whites.

A good analogy to me is the excuses people make for torture. Torture is a bad thing, just like racial discrimination. But maybe torture is necessary and legal since otherwise we will surely be blown up by the terrorists. Just like racial discrimination against whites is necessary and legal otherwise we'll be back to Jim Crow days. Not impressive arguments. So far, it is not clear that torture is even effective (in fact, it could be hurtful) for getting information. Just like it's not clear that AA has done anything to help minorities in this country (and in fact could be hurting them). And of course, those being tortured (or discriminated against) are ignored.

[U4ikLefty]

133. Comparing AA to Torture is crap logic. n/t

[MellowDem]

134. Well, good thing I didn't

I compared the logic for both, not the actual acts. It's the "necessary evil" logic. They both use the same argument to justify their uses.

[customerserviceguy]

142. Well said

There are ways of equalizing many years of disadvantage, but some are far more useful to our opponents in achieving their political goals. The big push during the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations for AA gave us the "law and order" candidate who was able to exploit racism to put the Repukes in power for the next eight years.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to make changes so quickly and so drastically that it just hands our political enemies the chance to come in and reverse what we've done.

[madville]

135. Connecticut is 90% white

I don't know the make up of their fire department demoraphic but if the state is 90% white would it be safe to say at least 75% of their firefighters are white. Maybe they, as individuals, just simply did better on the test and deserve their promotion. If people know they are going to get extra points just because of their color wouldn't that make them not feel they have to study as hard or know their job as well?

[Dr. Strange]

143. Link to transcript.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/07-1428.pdf