Mom kills son, then self at Casselberry shooting range

[Hugabear]

Source: Orlando Sentinel

Marie Moore and her son, Mitchell, were taking target practice at a popular shooting range Sunday when, without warning, she shot him in the head and then turned the gun on herself.

Mitchell Moore, 20, died at the scene. Marie, 44, died a short time later at Florida Hospital Altamonte.

There was no argument or any other sign of a problem, said Casselberry police Lt. Dennis Stewart.

Witnesses said Moore, of Altamonte Springs, just pointed the gun at Mitchell and shot him at the range, Shoot Straight on U.S. Highway 17-92.

Read more: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-asecgunrange06040609apr06,0,5962752.story

[CrownPrinceBandar]

1. WTF?...................

Folks have gone insane.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. She had "a history of mental illness", according to the article

Depending on what it was, you might say that she shouldn't have been at the gun range with a gun.

[bdamomma]

25. she had a history of mental illness and probably was not on or couldn't

afford psychiatric meds to take care of her problem, sad very sad, these killings are getting more and more common.

[Barack_America]

51. No no no, she has a right to arm herself, mentally ill or not.

As long as those around her are also armed, they can protect themselves.

Oh, wait....



(:sarcasm:)

[Critters2]

90. *snort* nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. Classy, making fun of the mentally ill. Your parents must be proud.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

131. he is not making fun of the mentally ill. he is mocking the stance of the nra

and others who think gun rights are absolute.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

140. Do you have a link to the NRA supporting gun rights for the mentally ill?

The NRA supported the National Instant Background Check System and has supported strict enforcement of the laws keeping firearms out of the hands of citizens barred from possessing them.

DAvid

[JerseygirlCT]

149. I definitely might say that... nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

129. They've always been insane, around here.

It's what I've been trying to tell y'all for years.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

139. You're funny when you're mad......n/t

[sufrommich]

2. Good Lord. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Yep more guns!!

Aren't we all glad we have the right to own a gun! Running her son over with her car would have been so much messier!!

:sarcasm:

[Somawas]

9. I'm quite glad that we have the right to own guns.

Sorry that you aren't.

[Justyce]

10. Agree. nt

[boilinmad]

13. I know, I know......

.....guns are beautiful things!! GUNS FUCKING SUCK

[Threedifferentones]

195. Guns keep you safe

Guns also threaten you. I agree, guns suck. Right now my job fucking sucks too. But, you won't see me trying to quit it, let alone get rid of landscaping altogether.

[boilinmad]

210. Guns, Jobs.....

......Apples, Oranges.

[Threedifferentones]

212. Things you need

Think about it a little more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Are you glad she was able to shoot her kid in the head?

[rd_kent]

96. Uh, Yeah, right!

I suppose that if they were at a xmas tree farm amd she decided to use the axe to cleave her son in the head you would say "Are you glad she was able to axe her kid in the head?" Gimme a break.

[Somawas]

125. Sure. It's ever so much neater than an ax to the head.

How do you expect the absence of guns to deter people who are pretty badly mentally unbalanced? If it isn't a gun, it will be an ax.

[Dr Fate]

151. Sure-exactly the same scenario- except she kills him at an ax throwing range.

And people would have ax racks in their trucks...

[earthside]

11. It's Not the Gun ...

... it's the American culture of violence.

Video games that depict continuous killing in the name of entertainment have more to do with this acceptance of violence than guns.

But, just watch, you'll hear the plaintive cry ... "You can't blame video games!"

Oh, yes, you can.

[Hugabear]

14. When is the last time a video game killed anyone? Or a movie, or a heavy-metal record, etc?

People have been using entertainment as a scapegoat for a long time. I remember when Judas Priest and Dungeons & Dragons were blamed for causing people to commit suicide.

No, it's so much easier to blame videogames than it is the easy access to guns in this country.

[Abq_Sarah]

145. When video games

Become a protected constitutional right, we can compare the two.

[havocmom]

208. guns are tools. the hands that use the guns for murder are the problem

and the root of THAT problem is poor social skills to serious mental health problems. The root of THAT bigger problem is the violent society.

Lot of people run over others but there is no big cry that cars are the problem.

[InvisibleTouch]

33. The cause is neither video games nor guns.

There are countries which have at least as many "violent" video games and animation (Japan, for instance), and just as much access to guns (Canada, for instance), and the level of actual violence isn't even on the same scale. Why is it that these countries have no problem recognizing that video games and movies are entertainment, and guns are tools meant for a practical purpose - not permission to go on a random killing spree? There's some other disconnect in our culture - for instance the constant fearmongering of the media (because it drives the ratings) which puts people on edge, and the sense of lacking a connection to other living beings. I also wonder to what extent drugs are involved, and possibly even nutrition (many of us in the U.S. are well-fed but malnourished, which has a measurable effect on mental functioning), as opposed to other countries where this stuff happens much less frequently.

[heliarc]

187. "Practical purpose"

Last time I checked, a personal handgun's "practical purpose" was shooting people in the head (or anywhere else), whether it's used for personal protection or an assault like this... the practical purpose of a gun is clear... especially a quick reloading sidearm like the one she has in the surveillance pic.

I also don't see how this was a "random killing spree" since she killed only her son and herself and left a note to chronicle at least her desperation in the act. Sounds pretty specific to me. Not random at all.

You are right. Guns are tools... tools for killing. Video games happen to be forms of sublimation.

[liberalmuse]

35. Guns are a HUGE part of the culture of violence.

Without guns, you'd hear about the occasional stabbing. I'm sick of the gun fetishists in this country. I think it is a disorder or a mental illness, or a sign of weak character. Maybe people have a right to own guns, but no one has the right to cut a life short, not even an animals. I have the right to send my kid to school without your kid taking your gun to school and blowing her and her classmates away. Fuck the gun culture. And fuck the fetishists who come out of the woodwork to defend guns every time one of their own goes on a rampage.

[superconnected]

141. The interesting thing, is it's usually the gun owners going crazy and killing people.

They're also the most likely to want to kill someone else who is bad instead of just apprehend them and put them in jail.

I agree, we'd be safer without the gun nuts. It's their mentality, not their guns though. I'm against arming them for that reason.

[wickerwoman]

67. Because 44 year old moms spend so much time playing first person shooters.

This seems like a kind of strange case to bring up desensitization to violence.

She was mentally ill. She had access to a gun.

She should have had access to health care and she shouldn't have had access to a gun. Those seem to be the most relevant issues here.

[TXRAT2]

92. She should have had access to health care and she shouldn't have had access to a gun.

I agree with both but have a question. What if they refuse the necessary health care?

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Yes you can

But of course we can't blame video games or violence in the media. That would infringe upon the rights of so many who enjoy violence!

:sarcasm:

[BulletproofLandshark]

130. Nice post, Tipper.

[Pharlo]

209. It's not the video games, it's not the 'American culture of violence'

It's the inability of some people to discern the difference between fantasy and reality.

If you want the underlying reason for the US propensity to slaughter fellow citizens, start with the US mental health care "program".

Look at other countries where guns are available to its citizenry. Are video games banned?

Or, do they have a reasonable degree of access to mental health care for individuals that need it? Do they have social programs in place other than "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" that prevent people from the stress and depression of knowing they are better off dead.

It's not the American 'culture of violence' that promotes this issue, it's the American 'culture of greed' that says, "I've got mine, screw you."

It's not the guns, it's not the video games, it's the underlying decay of a society that could care less about those who need assistance - be it mental health, physical health, education, or stress from under/un employment.

Until those issues are addressed, guns and video games will be nothing more than scapegoats.

Having said that, I feel that, as a society, the US needs to review the role we want guns to have in our social fabric. We are no longer the country we were when the Constitution was written. We have a vastly more populated society, 'guns' are no longer muzzle loading 'three shots a minute' tools for survival, and we no longer have to hunt for meat. Many may opt to hunt for meat, and that option should be open to them. I do not believe that guns should be abolished. I think limitations should be placed on certain weapons, and that there should be no limitation to what video games a person over 18 can play - before they're 18, there is a thing called 'parental control' which should be exercised.

All I'm saying, is don't put the blame on the guns and video games. The real problem goes much deeper than that. If you were to ban guns and video games tomorrow, the individuals affected would just find other ways of manifesting their illness. Until the root cause is addressed, you are just going to slap a band-aid over one symptom and watch while another symptom manifests itself. Knives, axes, and poisons are just as deadly as guns. Books can be just as violent as video games. Where does the 'banning' end?

Please note that while I appreciate that you did not promote banning either guns or video games, the fact is, once blame is assigned to a particular factor, eventually, someone will come up with the brilliant idea of 'banning the cause' to prevent the unwanted outcome. And, while this strategy may work when dealing with the root cause, it will not be successful if aimed at a symptom.

The root cause in this instance is mental health access in the US.

Symptoms of a lack of proper mental health care access in the US are the senseless shooting sprees we've seen lately - and individuals who think what happens in video games is reality.

[The Straight Story]

69. Women have also drowned their kids, should we ban water

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. We need water

However, it is possible to go through life (as I and most of my friends have) without owning a gun.

[Pavulon]

74. Dont need tubs. You can't drown in a shower, so the tub must be banned.

for the sake of the children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. I need mine to bathe my dog when it is cold outside

[Pavulon]

80. You can shower with a dog, even a big one.

your right to have a tub is a threat to my children (you could drown them or even drown your dog) showers will make us all safe.

Now we need to repeal that constitutional right to own a tub, I mean the framers thought it was important enough to protect in the document. They only had iron Victorian tubs back them, with the claw feet, so can I have a garden tub?

The whirlpool feature may not be covered by original intent, so all tubs must be like the ones at Monticello.

On a roll..

This topic is so silly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. My elderly mother couldn't stand in a shower

But she never even fired a gun.

So she needed that bathtub :)

[Pavulon]

87. We neeed to mandate safer tubs, they sense attempted drowinings

and automatically drain all the water. Same with 5 gallon buckets. Infant auto protect is needed.

Or just ban drowning people...

This is reaching hysteria levels. We will have some witch trials soon.

Or we could actually address the driving factors in most violence. You know, like why these dont happen in Israel or Switzerland.

[primavera]

104. Yawn

Are we going to drag out this battered old argument again? As you know, unless you're an incurable idiot, no one has suggested banning bath tubs or knives or cars or any of the other household objects which, if used extremely creatively, might conceivably produce a death. Those objects differ in that they possess a utility without which modern life could not function, so accepting a low order of risk produced by those objects in order to maintain a functioning society is a valid cost-benefit analysis. Conversely, most people manage to live just fine without guns, so their essential function is belied by the billions of people on earth who don't have guns and somehow manage to survive. There is consequently comparatively little benefit to guns to offset their formidable costs and risks. So, can we lay off this incredibly stupid straw man argument? It's insulting to our intelligence.

Now why Switzerland doesn't have the same problems with their gun ownership, now that's an interesting question and an even more interesting answer. They don't have the same problems we have because, unlike us, they don't tolerate gun nuts who merely want to play with guns for a hobby, but rather require their citizens to receive extensive, rigorous, military training in the proper and safe handling of firearms. Now, if you'd like to adopt the Swiss policy and require each person who wishes to have a gun to undertake a full year of full-time, formal, military training, I would be only too happy to drop my objections to private gun ownership. Any takers?

<crickets chirping>

No, I didn't think so.

[Pavulon]

106. So with my 8 years, can I keep mine. Anyone who did BIT?

maybe? Active duty (technically not a militia), NG members. Combat MOS only, just infantry maybe. Swiss do NOT require military service to own firearms. Nor does israel, finland, switzerland, and plenty of places with low murder rates.

YOU ARE WRONG. (that cricket is chirping "USE FUCKING GOOGLE" AT YOU)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland


Here is the deal jack. An effective gun ban will NEVER take place in the US. Same as banning weed and booze. This is not Japan or the UK. We are not subjects of a king or emperor. Just a way of flushing a political majority down a rat hole. The smart ones have figured that out in 95. I pretty much approach any person pushing gun bans or other means of pissing on people who follow the law with distrust. There are regulations that cover 99.999% of these actions. They are not enforced or just broken by the people involved.

The VAST majority of people killed either blow their brains our or are committing criminal acts driven by drug and gang (all wind together) activity.

This spree shit DOES happen in the EU, it is just rare. Please start with health care , drug law, and anti poverty measures before pissing a way any hope of political power away on a pointless gun law NO criminal will follow.

TATP was used in the UK bombings and is quite easy to make. Instructions on youtube. People with intent find a method.

Your stop rape by banning cock logic is just ignorant..

EDIT:GRAMMAR

[primavera]

108. You keep working on that grammar

Because pretty much none of what you said made any sense. But thank you for the wikipedia link which you strangely offered up as evidence to refute my claim that Swiss gun owners received military training when, in fact, the wiki link confirmed exactly what I said - that Swiss are required to undergo conscriptive service, are required to serve in the reserves until the age of 30, and, even then, they aren't issued ammo for the guns that they are required to have. How that supports your claim of free access to guns is beyond me, but whatever.

As for your certainty that an effective gun ban would never work, well, I'm quite sure that many critics throughout the other nations of the developed world, in which guns have universally been subjected to stricter controls than we employ here, were equally certain that gun control measures could never succeed, just as people were certain that the earth was flat. And they, just like you, were wrong. By your reasoning, no law should ever be passed, because no one will ever obey it. Congratulations, you are a true anarchist. Thankfully, also an anachronism, because the rest of us manage to pass laws and obey them just fine and will continue to do so whether you think them likely to succeed or not.

Oh, and btw, my name isn't "Jack."

[Pavulon]

109. Finish up the drug ban, then move on..You are 50% right (typical)

MEN are required to do national service. Not always combat training. WOMEN are not and are still allowed to use firearms.

DUDE I have spent time in Zurich and the countryside. People can buy guns and ammo in a gun store. People hunt and fish there. People go to ranges. Drink, eat, pretty normal place. Except there is virtually no crime. Not just shootings, minimal violent crime.

I support the regulations already in place. Most of these events would be covered by their enforcement. There is a common sense balance.

To get a ban you amend the constitution. If you can get that, knock yourself out.

What about that MURDER ban, pretty sure the state (many here) will KILL you if you break it and still people murder.

You guys are really silly.

[primavera]

113. Ehrlich, Du warst in der Schweiz? Ich auch!

I spent several years living in Europe and spent a fair amount of time in Switzerland, which is how I know that, while people do have guns, they also have a lot of strings attached to being allowed to use them. Like I said, though, if we would adopt some of the training and licensing requirements employed in Switzerland and the vast majority of the rest of the developed world, I would be happy to drop my objections to private gun ownership. My problem is that we treat gun ownership as an inalienable right from birth, to which one is automatically entitled merely by virtue of breathing. At that point, anyone and everyone can have a gun, no matter how unfit they are to handle the responsibility.

As for the constitution, I understand that gun advocates here have suddenly come to view Mad Dog Scalia, with whom they'd probably never agreed even once before in their lives, as a true Daniel and the apex of justice on earth because he took their side in re-interpreting the second amendment. Well, it only took him a short while to overturn 200 years of legal scholarship on the subject; perhaps when the court is less heavily stacked with the right-wing extremists who support his and your interpretation, it won't be necessary to obtain a constitutional amendment to restore the second amendment to its clear and proper meaning.

[Pavulon]

146. ich habe keine ahnung, of how much german I forgot.

was in germany for a while. Was able to travel to switzerland while "living" in germany and later on business. I have seen absolute stupidity in the military, like drivers ed soes not prevent stupid people from texting or reading while driving.

The strings are attached to issue weapons. So in the NG we left weapons at the armory after drill. There they take them home.

They also have normal ownership of weapons. Not the issued SIG but others were common. Lets say I did not spend my free time at the firing range..

I thing there is BALANCE on this topic. I think reasonable laws are very important. However laws cover common sense things and reasonable behavior. The do not stop this type of behavior.

I have no problem with the current laws that cover firearm ownership.

The language is quite clear. The Democratic party has no platform item to remove legal firearm ownership.

[IDFbunny]

150. Switzerland doesn't have gun nuts?

They don't have civilian shooting events. They prohibit non military guns? Nonsense.

[Dr Fate]

152. Maybe she could have killed her son at a water balloon throwing range.

Or she could splash him to death. I mean, it could happen.

[Pavulon]

183. Tylenol kills people

so do pools, and straining while taking a shit.

[Dr Fate]

199. But this young man was shot in the head at a shooting range. Water & asprin are not in the picture.

n/t

[SurfingScientist]

4. Firearm suicides in the US: approx. 17000 in 2005 (CDC).

The price of certain civil liberties is a high one.

[poboyross]

12. The price *can* be high, but the others can be as well.

That's why it's up to us to recognize and take care of the human condition, not the tools of the trade. People will always find a way to commit suicide, guns or not. Having been in the damage radius of two, my wife's father and our neighbor's son, it's a horrible thing. We do benefits for suicide prevention, now. One of the first things you learn is that when someone decides to do that, the method isn't the issue, and it's hard to stop them.

The part that gets me is it being at the range. I frequent the range quite often, and I always know what's going on with everyone there. It *must* have been in a split second, seems like someone would have noticed something squirrely before it went down. I don't get what the deal is with all of these people, perhaps they have just lost all hope or they're just plain nuts. The more horrific thing is the killing of other members of the family. I think part of the national mood is that people may lose focus on their own lives, rather paying too much attention to news outlets of any type, always laying down the gauntlet of gloom and doom. Sometimes it's almost like no matter what is done, it will accomplish nothing. I can see why someone would get depressed over the fruits of their labor rotting in their hands....but to go to that level, is that a possible outcome? I just can't believe that there was nothing in that woman's life that indicated she was going off a cliff.

[SurfingScientist]

20. I fully agree, guns are not the reason for suicides, at most a facilitator...

I am very sorry for your losses. it just seems that once a person is going close to a cliff, a gun or other tool that offers a quick 'way out' at low effort may lower the threshold, like a box of sleeping pills. The same is probably true for people who snap and cause harm to others.

It would be a good thing if there were strict criteria for background checks nationwide, and if these background checks were very strictly enforced before someone can buy a gun. A severe mental condition or a violent/criminal history should be a show-stopper for gun purchases.

And I agree, better mental prevention and healthcare are a vital step to lower the rate of any such tragedies. And we are back to healthcare.

[poboyross]

39. One quick thing for you SurfingScientist.....

I would need to see how many people slip through the cracks here in TN, but I do know that they link your mental health records to your court records (state mandated mental health visits, not "average" situations where someone goes to a shrink to talk through some grief). You fill out your paperwork, the gun shop enters your info after you bring multiple forms of ID to prove your identity, and if the database isn't overloaded you can have approval in 30 seconds. Some people think "how can that be long enough" because their states don't have that database in place and thus have to do it manually (waiting periods). I was curious about how many people actually get turned down, and the owner told me that while it's not every other time, it happens more than you'd think. That gives me more faith that my tax dollars were spent on a good program.

[SurfingScientist]

41. Thank you for that information poboyross!!!

I had no idea that some states were that strict. It sounds like a very reasonable thing - while no system will be perfect, this one sure sounds like it works. I wonder if there are numbers about the incidence of firearm injuries/fatalities in states with such a scrutiny and states without.

Thanks again!

[russ1943]

120. Tennesee is carefull...... not exactly

Too Many With Tennessee Hidden Handgun Permits Are Felons, Abusers
Commercial Appeal (Memphis), via gunpolicy.org
12-Mar-09

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/mar/12/armed-and-dangerous-tennessee-gun-debate-prone/

..........The newspaper identified as many as 70 county residents who were issued permits despite arrest histories, some with charges that include robbery, assault, domestic violence and other serious offenses.

One man had 25 arrests on his record when he was licensed. He is now charged with a series of bank robberies in federal court, where he's pleading insanity.

Another, booked 11 times before getting licensed, held on to his gun permit after three new drug arrests and guilty pleas on two felony cocaine-dealing charges. His permit was revoked this month -- 10 months after his last conviction -- when a reporter asked about his status.........

[poboyross]

134. You're basing your assumption on one article.....

That is from a newspaper whose head is blatantly anti-gun. His stunt of publishing every permit holder's name in TN was a cheap shot to dredge up gun fear and promote his own agenda. No one ever mentions that his rag is also plummeting in circulation. Last time I checked, Memphis/Shelby County had about 33300 perits. That comes up to 1/5 of 1 percent of all permit holders in the Memphis/Shelby County area that are suspect in receiving their permits. That is also using numbers from the most crime ridden city in the state. Even applying that statistic to the entire state would only bring you up to 2.79% of permit holders...and that's if TN were one big Memphis. Just so you know my numbers, the most up to date figures for number of permit holders in TN is 250,000 (per TN BATF). That's nowhere near the amount that the Commercial Rag was able to dredge up.

The quote "..........The newspaper identified as many as 70 county residents who were issued permits despite arrest histories, some with charges that include robbery, assault, domestic violence and other serious offenses." is also vague in numbers and what "serious offenses" means. Lay down some numbers, let's see them without applying these terms to the whole. Picking the 5 worst guys and then saying "some with" implies that all were violent. All it takes is a felony to lose your ability to get a permit, and not all felonies are violence related. I have a friend who came within a stones throw of getting a felony charge (and labeled sex offender) for mooning a lady at a block party...no joke. Picking 2 people out of 33300 to substantiate any claim that the system is flawed on any major basis doesn't ring true. If any of those 70 truly should not have received their permits, then by all means, revoke them and tweak the system for a little more redundancy.

One thing our lovely paper doesn't report is that most of those men, while they shouldn't have received or have been allowed to keep their permits, were caught in a re-canvassing of issued permits. They were sent court documents stating that their permits had been revoked and they were later collected by police. This is info from the Shelby County Sheriff's deputies and their office.

[primavera]

28. Crazy people and guns

It seems like this calls attention to a flaw in the logic of gun control opponents. Gun advocates repeatedly tell us that guns in the hands of "ordinary people" isn't the problem; the problem is guns in the hands of crazy people and criminals. But someone who kills another human being with a gun is automatically relegated to the "crazy" person category, even though the day before they shot someone, they were considered an "ordinary person" whose right to own and operate a gun was militantly defended by the same gun advocates who now hastily disassociate themselves from that suddenly deranged individual. It seems a bit like a closed loop of logic: if you haven't shot anyone (yet), you're normal and your right to own a gun is sacrosanct, and as long as you don't shoot anyone, you validate the gun proponent's assertion that normal people aren't the problem. Yet as soon as you shoot someone, you're crazy and you once again validate the gun proponent's assertion that the problem is with the crazy people. Either way, the conviction that guns are fine in the hands of normal people is reinforced. So what circumstance could occur that would contest the supposition that guns are good in the hands of "ordinary" people?

[sufrommich]

30. Great post.primavera and spot on. nt

[poboyross]

38. People are in a constant state of flux, anyone is capable of anything

I think that's the issue that most people don't consider. We all say "I would never do that!", but how true is that? Look at all of the experiments that have been done showing how monkeys react when taken away and sequestered for long periods of time. An otherwise normal creature is exposed to harsh or unique circumstances and becomes something else. I don't think all of these people had hearts of darkness their whole lives, but some were so affected by circumstances or by other people that they weren't strong enough to withstand. That doesn't excuse them or lay blame on someone else, we are our own keepers in the end, but it helps you see how they might have arrived there. There *are* those who are that way from a child and display disturbing behaviors for a long time prior to heinous acts (Dahmer, the big example). Some people are fine till that switch gets flipped for a reason that may be impossible to discern.

Primavera, I recognize your avatar and I believe that I've read other posts by you regarding guns. I'm pretty sure that you completely disagree with the premise that the public at large should be able to own guns. I know it's a losing battle to try and convince you otherwise as I've seen people put down every argument under the sun in support of self-defense rights and they've fallen on deaf ears. The issue of gun violence is so multi-pronged, that reducing it to ridding society of guns doesn't begin to address the subject...or do so in an effective manner. Why do some communities (primarily rural) have so little gun violence and so many guns? What are the factors in society that disassociate people with the consequences of using a gun? Has our culture created a society that has no grasp of life and death? So many have never had need of a weapon for self defense, I have three times. All three were in the city where I went to college, and I had friends shot and one killed. Thank God, while I was prepared to use it; I didn't have to fire a shot. Any one of those times I could have been dead, or my friends might have been, while someone who would have a gun in spite of a ban would still be living.

[primavera]

56. A thoughtful post

You really cut to the heart of the issue. I do not for an instant deny that there are instances in which guns are legitimately used for self-defense. I suspect that the numbers of such incidents are difficult to nail down precisely owing to the frequently, albeit naturally, subjective perceptions of what constitutes a genuinely life-threatening circumstance. I also suspect that, because of the political activism surrounding the gun issue, those numbers are often inflated by interested parties. Nonetheless, I am quite certain that, in at least some instances, guns have indeed saved lives.

Yet, the common denominator in most (not all, assuredly, but most) of those legitimately life-saving employments of guns is that they were needed to save someone from another person armed with... a gun. If your assailant had not been armed with a gun, would you still have needed a gun to defend yourself? Had they had a knife, for instance, perhaps you would have had a chance at running away, unless the assailant had the knife at your throat or something, in which case the assailant could mortally injure you whether you had a gun or not. So it seems to me that the vicious cycle we have going on here is that people have a legitimate reason to fear other citizens because those other citizens have guns and may misuse them, so we're going to go out and get more guns to protect ourselves from other people with guns, thus increasing the number of people armed with guns whom we need to be afraid of, necessitating even more guns. So how do we get off this insane merry-go-round?

You are quite right about me: my ultimate fantasy is a world without any guns whatsoever, in which the violence people are able to perpetrate upon one another is limited to what they can accomplish with a rock and a pointed stick. I know that I can't put the genie back in the bottle and ever create a truly gun-free world, but maybe I can take a few itty-bitty steps towards a gun-freer world by supporting stricter gun control policies. Maybe, in so doing, I can de-legitimize to some extent the culture which accepts guns as an ordinary and everyday fixture of daily life, maybe I can move towards a culture which, if not gun free, at least looks upon guns with greater respect for the life-taking objects which they are.

But that's obviously a long-term goal. In the short term, I may well be responsible for taking away from you the gun that could have saved your life. Am I going to feel badly about that? Oh God, yes, of course, I will and do feel horrible about it. But as things stand now, I have to feel that horribly 30,000 times a year because I am a citizen of a country which allows its populace, much of whom are not capable of using a gun responsibly or resisting their innate proclivity for violence, to have virtually unrestricted access to guns. You see, I can't escape feeling horribly in either case; either way, an utterly heartbreaking number of people will continue to die needlessly. But maybe, through stricter gun control measures, we can reduce the 30,000 figure enough to compensate for the loss of those whose lives could have been saved by guns. So maybe I will only have to feel horrible about 29,000 deaths instead of 30,000. Hey, it's an improvement, and an especially notable one if you happen to be one of the thousand. And maybe, the following year, it'll only be 28,500, and, the year after that, 28,000. Then there may be a hiccup for some reason the next year and it'll jump back up to 29,000, but then it'll fall to 27,000 the year after that. Who knows. The point is, I don't expect stricter gun control legislation to produce any overnight miracles - there are still an awful lot of guns on the streets in hands which shouldn't have them. I don't imagine that when the UK and France and Germany and Japan and all of the other countries that have strict gun control policies first implemented them, they produced overnight results either. Rather, I imagine it was the work of generations to produce a gun freer society. But everyone's got to start somewhere. And the vast majority of the developed world has already taken those first steps towards slowing down the merry-go-round and pulling back from the abyss, and now, generations later, they have successfully achieved per capita homicide rates that are far, far lower than what we have to live with in this country. Here, we refuse to take those first potentially costly steps and so the cycle of violence keeps escalating. The solution to the gun problem cannot be to simply throw more guns at it, that's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, you're just feeding the flames.

As you say, this is of course a multi-pronged issue. Although gun control proponents can occasionally be a little careless in their choice of words, I don't imagine that very many of them believe guns to be the "cause," in the strict sense of the word, of violence; but rather the tool of choice for violence that is caused by a great many things. And I am quite certain that the main reason that countries like France and Germany and the UK and Japan and so on have such vastly lower per capita homicide rates is because they don't treat the poor, the mentally ill, the minorities, the disenfranchised and disaffected members of their societies like so much shit to be scraped off the soles of their shoes like we do. So of course, no argument, the causes of violence are complex and varied and we will not achieve a reduction in violence without addressing those root causes. Which is why I'm a proud liberal and DUer, because I recognize that those are all important pieces of the puzzle. Nevertheless, the enabling role of guns to facilitate mass harm is yet another piece of the puzzle and it too cannot be ignored.

Phew, how I do drone on! By my own reasoning, I should probably be regulated as a weapon of mass stupefication. Sorry, but yours was a very thoughtful and insightful post and really set me to thinking. Thanks for the chat and have a good one!

[FailureToCommunicate]

111. Very thoughtful post primavera, as was #28. "a weapon of mass

stupefication." Now that's funny
What 2nd amendment confusers never want brought up is plain old statistics: US leads the world in gun ownership and gun deaths. But they still always say "but bathtubs kill people- should they be banned?"
10,000 to 13,000 deaths from guns every damn year.
When will the NRA release the Congress from it's grip?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

[primavera]

114. Thank you, how very kind of you!

:hi:

[FailureToCommunicate]

127. Upon further research: NOT 13,000 gun deaths/year, more like 30,000 according to

CDC Centers for Disease Control stats. Donde los yikes!

http://webapp.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

(I long for the good old days when death came mostly by old age or saber tooth tiger...)

[primavera]

133. Yep, and of those 30,000...

... only about 400 were designated as lawful, life-saving interventions, the remaining 98.7% were recorded as wrongful deaths in one form or another.

And don't forget the roughly 80,000 nonfatal gun injuries each year. How many people will live out the remainder of their lives in wheelchairs or suffer long term health problems resulting from gun injuries? One estimate I heard from a study conducted by Duke and Georgetown placed the total cost of gun deaths and injuries in the US at $100 billion a year. It's a pretty steep bill we pay for our guns.

I keep thinking about the lengths we went to after 9/11 in response to those 2,998 deaths. Damn, we have totally turned this country (and much of the rest of the world) upside down. We've pretty much shredded our constitution; embraced official kidnapping, torture, and murder; adopted illegal, warrantless wiretapping; killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians; transformed ourselves into a pariah state amongst the community of nations; spent hundreds of billions of dollars; the list goes on and on, and much of it done with public support, or at least acquiescence. And we've done all of this for the sake of 3,000 lives, a number of lives we lose to guns in this country approximately every five weeks. Yet when the deaths result from our own guns, we will evidently do nothing to prevent them. Amazing.

[FailureToCommunicate]

138. Geesh. You're dead on, of course, about 9/11 and inaction to gun violence.

That last paragraph should be a post. (Maybe you have?)

[spin]

91. Many times people who wave "red flags" are ignored..

and later lose their sanity and use a weapon to murder other people or to commit suicide.

We do need a better method of determining who is really dangerous and others who are merely "strange".

To many of the anti-gun people who post here, many gun owners would be considered mentally dangerous merely because they own firearms and fairly large quantities of ammunition and appear aggressive or don't totally trust their government.

Obviously, a very few of these people are very dangerous and will eventually "loose it". The problem is how does society distinguish between a gun enthusiast and a really dangerous and violent armed individual.

If it would work, banning all guns would be a way of eliminating the mass murders committed with firearms that haunt our society. The problem is that short of a magic spell and a Harry Potter wand, a total ban on firearms is NOT going to work in this country. The criminal element would still have their weapons and many gun owners would simply not comply with any total gun ban law. Any attempt to search and seize firearms would result in more death and injury than most Americans would tolerate. It would also be difficult to convince law enforcement and even the military that risking their life to take firearms away from individuals who have never shown any violent tendencies is worth it.

So we have a real dilemma. The criminal background check does a fairly good job at preventing a criminal from walking into a gun store and purchasing a weapon. How to we improve it to reduce the number of seriously mentally ill people from legally obtaining weapons?

In some cases, when an individual does show the possibility of violent tendencies, the state can step in and require him to turn over his firearms. One example is when a domestic restraining order is issued by a court.

Mass murder committed by firearms upsets gun owners as much as those who oppose private civilian ownership of firearms. Maybe we can work together to come up with real solutions to reduce this problem.

[primavera]

94. But how to know...

The analogy that keeps coming to my mind is handing out vials of ebola virus to a group of kindergarteners. Some of them will certainly play "responsibly" with them and not open the vials. Just as certainly, others will drop theirs or break theirs or open theirs and it'll kill everyone in the room. Because some can be trusted to handle guns isn't at issue, of course there are such people. The problem is that many can't be, there's no practical way to know which category each individual gun owner will fall into, and, if they fuck it up, a whole bunch of people die as a result. To me, passing out guns to such a mixed group, some of whom you know for certain will not be able to handle the responsibility, seems no more sane than passing out ebola virus to toddlers.

As for banning guns outright, well, I agree it wouldn't work overnight. The question in my mind is whether, over time, it might not eventually reduce violence. You might take a look at my post #56 and tell me if you think I'm totally nuts.

[spin]

112. No, I actually thought your post was interesting and...

well thought out.

If we could raise the level of discussion about gun control to the standard of your post, we might be able to find some common ground. All too often the gun-control advocates resort to insulting the pro-gun forces with ridiculous comments about penis size etc. Indeed, you recognize this when you say although gun control proponents can occasionally be a little careless in their choice of words. Its fun to try to stir the pot briskly, but it may not significantly contribute to the stew.

Of course, I disagree with some of your thoughts. You say:

Yet, the common denominator in most (not all, assuredly, but most) of those legitimately life-saving employments of guns is that they were needed to save someone from another person armed with... a gun.

Probably more often than not the confrontation involving a firearm is between an unarmed attacker and an armed citizen. Since authorities don't compile such statistics, it's impossible to get any reliable data on these events. I mention one such event that happened to my daughter in reply #9 to the original post in the Gungeon "Has a policeman ever asked you to sign a form that says that the police will not help you?"

But I do agree with much of your post. You say:

So it seems to me that the vicious cycle we have going on here is that people have a legitimate reason to fear other citizens because those other citizens have guns and may misuse them, so we're going to go out and get more guns to protect ourselves from other people with guns, thus increasing the number of people armed with guns whom we need to be afraid of, necessitating even more guns. So how do we get off this insane merry-go-round?

and:

But as things stand now, I have to feel that horribly 30,000 times a year because I am a citizen of a country which allows its populace, much of whom are not capable of using a gun responsibly or resisting their innate proclivity for violence, to have virtually unrestricted access to guns.

We do seem to be trapped in the cycle you describe. I grew up in the fifties and the sixties and I remember those years as a time when hunters, target shooters and collectors owned the majority of firearms in this country. I would like to return to those days, but it is probably impossible without a time machine.

But we can reduced the number of gun related murders if we follow these steps

1) Enforce existing laws to make carrying an illegal weapon a crime with a punishment so severe that criminals avoid doing so.

2) Take much of the profit motive out of dealing drugs by legalizing some drugs.

3) Treat criminal drug gangs as terrorists (which they are). Use a coordinated effort of local, state and federal law enforcement to accomplish this task.

4) Require people to have passed a gun safety course and have a card similar to a Scuba certification card to purchase a firearm or ammunition.

5) Work to improve the NICS background check to make it more reliable and to incorporate mental health records to eliminate people with serious mental problems.

6) Form a task force to determine what characteristics and actions show that a person that a person is in need of mental health care. Publicize this list so that employers, friends and relatives can find help for people in need of care.

7) Make mental health care available to those who need it as a part of universal health care.

8) Improve education so that people have the skills to obtain profitable rewarding careers.

9) Encourage and create jobs for people that will provide a reasonable standard of living.

10) In order to stop the insane rate of purchase firearms and ammunition that is currently happening in our country, President Obama should state that he will not sign any draconian gun legislation into law that would totally restrict the availability of any firearms currently on the market or any currently available ammunition.

Note that many of the ideas I have suggested would anger both the pro-gun and the anti-gun proponents.

I got a good laugh out of your statement:

Phew, how I do drone on! By my own reasoning, I should probably be regulated as a weapon of mass stupefication.

I might fit the same description.

edited for coherence.

[primavera]

115. Woo hoo!

Far fucking out! After all of this time, we've finally figured out how to solve the problem that has baffled policymakers, or at least taken a good running start towards it. I'm with you, spin, I think we've got an excellent proposal here. Does anyone have Obama's cell phone number? He should hear about this!

On that note of wishful thinking, I'm off to bed. Thank you so much for your great post and have a good evening! :hi:

[spin]

118. All too often we take sides like two football teams...

and do our best to solve serious problems in our society by scoring points against the opposing team. We say, "There are no second place winners."

If we could just work together to find common ground we could actually accomplish important things.

Instead of considering ourselves to be opposing sports teams, we would be wiser to consider ourselves as a team of rowers on a boat. If we all find a way to row together we can reach the other shore. If however we fail to find a way to row in unison but instead those one side of the boat refuse to row, we will merely go in circles. If some of us decide to drill holes in the boat rather than to row, we will sink.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

158. Good post spin.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. Homicides are overwhelmingly committed by people who are barred from possessing firearms.

[xchrom]

5. o-k-a-a-a-y -- and AT the shooting range --

at the shooting range -- at the shooting range.

[Pavulon]

70. Drowned in the bathtub, drove into a lake...a lake

start your lake ban NOW.

[Missy Vixen]

105. How many children have been murdered in the past ten years by a parent driving into a lake?

Go ahead, Pavulon, I'm waiting. How many?

How many children have been murdered in the last 72 hours by a parent with a gun? That number is at least six, counting the five kids that died in Graham, WA. They can join the four others murdered a week ago last Sunday.

I'm still waiting, Pavulon. How many kids were murdered by a parent driving into a lake?

What these people just don't get is that you and your fellow fetishists will excuse ANY behavior AT ALL, so you can keep your precious guns. You love them more than your families, or anything or anyone in your life.

[Pavulon]

147. More drowned in tubs and pools. You people dont care WHY? Really. How Backwards.

Lots of fetish in the constitution? So at least meet the wacko bar of the prohibition people and amend the document. Please, that is your STARTING point. That was a wonderful success. Like the war on drugs, man cant find weed anywhere...

People like water follow the path of least resistance. Now that is a gun. Take that and they will still act.

You people are so myopic you refuse to address the motivation of the action. Why is a person KILLING their family? Fundamental failure of your position.

Really.

[Dr Fate]

155. Many 20 year old men are drowned by 44 year old women in tubs & pools too.

Also the mom could have waited until he came out to the parking lot, then ran him over. She would have found a way to take him down.

I guess the main lesson we need to take away from this is he was going to die no matter what.

[Pavulon]

184. Wife runs over husband. He is just as fucking dead. Ban running over people now.!

http://www.click2houston.com/news/1576669/detail.html
http://www.foxreno.com/news/19107836/detail.html

two cases fo ya. Better ban this action post haste. The horror, the horror, the children must be protected from this run over growing trend.

Next you will have me making runs for plastic sheeting and duct tape.

[Dr Fate]

188. I never said I wanted to ban guns- I'm pointing out that average people won't buy your analogy.

And in this case- I'm not sure the mom would have successfully killed her son with water, or with a car.

I'm also not sure that murder & subsequent suicide by car or water is in comparable numbers with murder & subsequent suicide by guns.

She could not run herself over with a car after she ran over her son, for instance.

Seems like this was a hastily planned killing to me.

What would be refreshing is to hear gun absolutists make arguments that are little more honest and a little more on point.

Drowning a baby in a tub is not comparable to how this women killed a 20 year old man. This argument may get you some High 5s in NRA circles, but average people are still looking for solutions.

[Pavulon]

189. Look to social medicine, drug reform, and mental health reform..

those are progressive, practiced in progressive nations with legal firearm ownership and nominal crime rates. Lets not re-invent the wheel.

[Dr Fate]

191. And the most powerful gun lobbies & conservatives in the USA support NONE of those things, do they?

Don't ask me to look to those things- ask the NRA and the other conservative multi-million dollar groups who fight gun regulation to start pumping millions into fighting for those things. LOL- good luck.

You put us in a difficult position - you ask us to agree with the NRA, a group who has the money power to keep guns from being regulated- yet there is no group with equal power, money and influence that can fight for the counterbalances you propose. In the end, we would get one but not the other or both.

You make a good point though- if the gun absolutists spent as much time fighting for some counterbalances, there would be less problems with gun violence.

[Pavulon]

192. Firearms ARE regulated. Sure when a case pops up (like Dishonorable != felony)

that can be fixed. The vast majority of people do not want felons owning weapons. I dont. The NRA does not represent all gun owners. I am NOT an NRA member but do not want the actions of a criminal, who will still be a criminal no matte what rules you give him, to dictate my life and choices.

Bans do not work. I have not said anything about easing current regulations, just not adding stupid shit that gets dems tossed out.

[Dr Fate]

193. My argument stands- the gun lobby offers few or no viable solutions to counterbalancing gun violence

The only solution they have is to suggest that frightened citizens embrace the gun culture for their own good and to build more prisons.

Whether you are an NRA member or not is irrelevant- you are using time worn NRA tactics, arguments and talking points in this thread- and the NRA is the #1 , multi-million dollar group in America that fights to keep guns from being regulated.

The problem is that if we let these conservatives have their way- we may have more gun violence but none of the counter balances you propose.

Your counter balances are hypothetical, while the NRA and the well funded work they do is real.

We are going to have to agree that DEMS should lay off gun regulation- as I said elsewhere- we have no choice but to become part of the gun culture-the gun lobby is just too powerful- letting them have their way is the only option we have right now.

[Pavulon]

194. I understand you position..but

think we can do some good with social medicine. That is a HUGE step in preventing many deaths. Suicide is over 50% of the annual toll.

The other violence will be "harder" to stop. Drug reform and community assistance are key. People with great lives generally dont go fucking them up by shooting people.

That is the hard part. Making people see that helping others not hit bottom is in their interest.

[Dr Fate]

198. We agree. But, again, if I follow your path, I will get the guns, but none of social medicine, etc.

I would actually find agreement with you if I knew that the NRA or some comparable organization agreed with your emphasis on counterbalancing or curbing the root causes of gun violence.

When it becomes apparent that no one is going to fight for the counterbalances with equal intensity- then more and more people are going to go for the quick & easy solution- ie taking away rights.

That should scare you.

[Mojorabbit]

6. I go to that range a couple of times a month

Nice people own the small business. Papers saying it was a murder suicide. People are snapping everywhere.

[E-Z-B]

7. Why does this weird stuff always happen in Florida?

Something in the water?:shrug:

[timtom]

34. Yes.

That shit in Binghamton and Pittsburgh and Oakland...they happened in Florida, too.

[Hannah Bell]

83. because it's the cutting edge of the new slave state.

[msongs]

8. exercising her 2nd amendment rights nt

[LeFleur1]

15. Video Games

Video games may not kill but they do desensitize.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Yeah. I'm sure this middle-aged mother was spending way too much

time on GTA.

[Javaman]

211. "ma, are you making dinner tonight?"

mom: shut up! I'm about to cap this mofo in the ass!!!

:rofl:

[Javaman]

16. It's official: society has come unglued. nt

[ShortnFiery]

17. One of my additional duties as a 1LT was "Range Officer" - High Stress.

I had every command written down and rehearsed for hours.

Those days functioning as the Range Officer were INTENSE. I would have rather low crawled over broken glass. There's always one or two people per day who "flake" and forget to keep their weapons pointed down range. :wow: You can't overreact in the tower, but instead, depend on the Sergeants on the line to promptly correct them.

It's difficult to believe that this woman showed NO signs of distress? I'd like to know more ... but stranger things have happened. :shrug:

[Tim01]

18. What the HELL is going on with people?

Has everybody gone psycho? Killing people is NOT ok. Christ!

[Lorien]

102. Maybe it's the times, maybe it's this State

I've driven past that shooting range many times. That section of town is pretty poor; cheap motels, a dog track, "gentleman's clubs"; hard times often hit those who are already struggling even harder.

[rfranklin]

19. Wasn't there somebody here telling me how this never happens...

at places where everybody has a gun in there hand? Well. here's the exception to your rule.

[Dr Fate]

156. People never drown at bath tub stores either.

I have no idea what that means.

[Fumesucker]

22. Happiness is a warm gun..

Yes it is..

Meh, I'm pretty much neutral on the Second Amendment but there are apparently one hell of a lot of people in America that shouldn't have access to firearms but do anyway.

[ShortnFiery]

23. Here's a suggestion:

"Marie Moore had a history of mental illness, Stewart said, but he had no details."

It's not fair, but IMO, anyone who has had a clinical diagnosis of mental disorder should not be handling GUNS. Especially a clinical diagnosis of Major Depression.

Even with our law enforcement people - those deemed to be the MOST mentally/emotionally stable - the Number One method of suicide is "Hand Gun."

Therefore, if our so called "normal" perspective people can sometimes become despondent, it is an exponential risk when a mentally distressed and diagnosed person is allowed to own a gun. :(

[Fumesucker]

26. Great way to keep people from going to the shrink..

Make sure they lose some of their rights if they do..

A lot of people will see it that way.

[ShortnFiery]

29. The people who need to "go to a shrink" often feel as you - they have no respect for ...

the mental health system. The point is moot because owning a gun, unlike some opinion, is not the alpha and omega of ENJOYING a good and full life. If owning a gun is more important than seeking assistance, you're probably too far gone to reach intellectually and emotionally.

But that doesn't mean that "the law" or "the 2nd Amendment" says that it's a RIGHT for distressed people seeking Psychiatric Assistance to OWN A GUN.

We're not talking about people with "life adjustment problems" who come into a counselor or even a therapist once a week. We're talking about CLINICALLY DEPRESSED individuals who are in emotional pain.

Far too many "normal" people find it so easy to take a handgun and "eat a bullet" but that's their call. However, if someone is clearly depressed and diagnosed as such, we, as a society, would be REMISS if we made it easier for them to take their own lives.

[Fumesucker]

31. Actually I've "been to a shrink" quite a bit..

I'm bipolar and take medication to stabilize my mood swings..

And I don't own any firearms.

[ShortnFiery]

32. OH ... then please excuse me, I now surmise that you were playing "devil's advocate"

Please accept my sincere apology for my incorrect interpretation? :blush: :hi:

[Fumesucker]

36. That's OK..

No offense taken.

But I was actually making what I thought was a legitimate point.. If people fear their "rights" are going to be taken from them for admitting "weakness" then they will avoid counseling/medication whatever.

It's a thorny problem really and I'm not sure what the best approach might be.

[ShortnFiery]

37. Yes, there are no easy answers.

Personally, I think that I'm going to let my older brother keep the two rifles that my father willed me. I have no use for them but he goes hunting each fall.

When I was in my 20s we'd have a good time going to the range or just to the desert to shoot stuff. The thrill of firing guns has worn off for me. However, I understand the allure and I don't want to take AWAY guns, just protect society without trampling on peoples 2nd Amendment.

The NRA should try to be less adversarial but there are NUTS on both sides. It's good that we can discuss this issue here.

typo edit.

[Critters2]

59. But I thought the argument for guns is that people need them

to protect themselves from rapists and murderers and all. People with a history of depression shouldn't get the protection the gun umm, advocates think we all so desperately need? That hardly seems fair.

[bdamomma]

24. what the hell is going on? people just turning the gun on their families and other people??

is it loss of a job, where they feel they must take other lives???

[paparush]

40. Can we go a day with out a mulitiple homicide shooting or Parent Kills Children / Self shooting?

Our society is melting faster than the ice shelves.

[FudaFuda]

42. media is gonna scrape up every gun story they can get right now.

this kind of thing happens all the time. I don't mean the Binghamton spree killing, but this "middle-aged mom shoots son, then shoots self" kind of thing. Homicides in this country are way down from where they were 15 years ago, but murder does and will always happen here and everywhere else, every damned day. But because of the recent spree shootings, and all the newspapaers sold and viewing time cable news is getting out of it, they're gonna rake up every gun story they can find and make it national news. And don't think they don't know they're just throwing logs on the fire - if overreporting the issue results in more 'stories', then all the better.

[Hugabear]

43. Your concern is duly noted

:sarcasm:

[FudaFuda]

48. you don't think overreporting by the media is making it worse?

hey, you can be a star! Get your share of fame and glory! Just kill a bunch of people and we'll make you immortal on the TV. We'll even publish your manifesto so people will read your words and give your thoughts the attention they deserve.

When some crazy person goes on a kiling spree, yes it's news. But the media's sensationalist methods of reporting are not responsible journalism. It's more like grossly negligent journalism. They play a role in exacerbating the problem. It'd be an impossible thing to quantify or measure, like violence in video games. But the effect is there.

[Critters2]

58. WTF is "over-reporting"? There's reporting the news

or there's silence. This happened, and should be reported. Whether it helps your cause or not.

[FudaFuda]

61. I meant more of how the media covers mass shootings

I blew it on this particular story about the mom at the firing range - discussed that with Barack_America below. But what I was complaining about is the media's 'style' in how they report spree shootings like Binghamton. They put the shooter's face and name up in lights, they publish the shooter's memoirs if any, and they run countless spinoff articles to sensationalize and add to the fireworks as much as they can. Every time a shooting happens, CBS is ready with a "Guns In America" sidestory and hyperlinks that re-run all the greatest hits, and misinform people on basic gun laws. Any manic psychopath who sees another psychopath getting all that attention and glory is bound to consider taking the media up on their promise of fame. I'm as tired of the media's treatment of the issue as I am of the shootings themselves, and I do think there's some causal connection.

People who are in favor of gun control may think its good to whip the public up into an hysteric fear of guns, but I just think it makes the problem worse.

Anyway, sorry just ranting.

[Barack_America]

52. So your argument is that gun violence is so commonplace it's not worth reporting?

Um, okay.

:eyes:

[FudaFuda]

53. hardly. but i don't think this story would've 'gone national' if guns weren't 'hot' right now. nt

[Barack_America]

54. This story is from a local paper.

A Google news search of "Casselberry" reveals 11 sources for this story. They are almost exclusively local.

[FudaFuda]

55. You're right. Chicago Tribune picked it up though. nt.

[Pavulon]

77. Yep, waiting to hear about the black and hispanic victims of drug law driven murder

who are over represented in violent crimes and in prison. Because "black male age 19 found dead ..." is not what news collectively gives a fuck about.

Spree killings push the whole "you can be a victim too" aspect. The routing suicides and murders dont mean shit to the folks setting the agenda.

The real problem will take hard work to fix. Not some stupid law criminals will ignore. Like the ban on crack and the sale of crack.

For anyone stupid enough to think this is racial attack (actually the reverse) please check the FBI and BOP statistics which back the contents of this post.

[Critters2]

57. Yep, that damn 1st Amendment is getting in the way of the 2nd Amendment.

Damn media, always telling us news and truth and stuff!! This should've been kept a secret.

[FudaFuda]

62. well, that's not what I meant

but I was mistaken in thinking this story was running on national news services and etc. I do believe the media is milking and stoking the issue every chance they get, though.

[derby378]

44. Who's the wiseass who thought handing guns to the mentally ill was a good idea?

Seriously, many of you know me as a "gun nut," but even I know this was a supremely stupid thing to let fall through the cracks. If a woman is mentally ill, she needs treatment, not a rifle. If she can be cured, you give her a few years to make sure she keeps her sanity, and if she wants to try her hand at a gun, you evaluate her and make sure she's still sane and stable enough to handle the responsibility.

I think I need to lie down now.

[Hugabear]

45. Can you look at someone and tell if they're mentally ill or clinically depressed?

As far as I know, there is absolutely no way for shooting ranges to verify whether someone is mentally ill - I don't know if they're even required to check someone's background.

[derby378]

47. At the shooting range, they always ask for some sort of ID

I always figured they ran a quick NICS check before they let someone on the shooting range, otherwise it would be way to easy for the shopkeeper to hand a gun to a convicted felon who could then simply grab his license and run out of the store.

[TXRAT2]

89. Thats NCIC

[benEzra]

116. National Instant Check System, NICS.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm

NCIC is a different outfit, with a different purpose, although their databases undoubtedly tie in together.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm

[primavera]

60. Yesterday, you were the wiseass, don't you remember?

Because yesterday, she was an ordinary person whose right to keep and bear arms you and others would have fought to the death to protect. Today, she's crazy and you can't understand how anyone could have been stupid enough to allow her to have a gun.

[derby378]

68. See post #47 (n/t)

[baldguy]

82. The NRA and the gun worshipers.

[BrightKnight]

93. I have seen guns do a lot of good believe it or not.

My parents ran a high school outdoors club when I was growing up. We took kids out frequently with a truck load of shotguns, cases of reloaded shells, and a few throwers.

I have seen many demure and apprehensive young girls being taught to shoot for the first time. They almost always managed to powder a clay pigeon or two with their first box of shells. The look on their face when the did was priceless.

We got a number of at risk kids. Some of them came out with with a head full of TV gun culture. They quickly figured out that it had nothing to do with that and that it was a lot of fun.

One of those kids brought a short barrel, pistol grip street sweeper shotgun. He couldn't hit anything with it and he looked like a complete idiot in front of the other kids. My dad or someone handed him a really nice over/under shotgun and explained the difference between the modified and full barrels. He was just another kid having fun after that.

--
I enjoy shooting skeet with my mother. It sounds like he was actually trying to spend some quality time with his mother. The son knew his mother better than anyone here and he did not think that it was a problem. Perhaps there are no circumstances where it is acceptable to take a mentally ill person to a gun range but I am not buying the knee-jerk cartoon characterization of this event.

[derby378]

110. I appreciate you sharing your story

And I have no problem with families enjoying recreational shooting together - in fact, I encourage it. It's just such a tragedy that this poor woman's mental illness was not interpreted as a danger to herself and her loved ones.

[Posteritatis]

197. Who's the dumbass who thinks "the mentally ill" are a monolith?

Oh, wait. Nevermind.

[Kali]

46. A mother killing her 20 year old son. That is so sad.

This is NOT about guns, it is about not taking care of sick human beings.

[Critters2]

63. And those sick human beings getting guns. nt

[Kali]

64. sure, but addressing causes rather than just symptoms actually solves problems

easy to sit around saying sick people shouldn't have guns, lots more work to help them not be sick. And this particular story is REALLY odd. Not many mothers kill their adult children, in fact women killing is pretty damn rare at all, even in self-defense.

[Critters2]

65. What say we make it hard for them to get guns AND get them treatment? nt

[primavera]

66. Both have their place

If you get an infection, you'll need antibiotics to eliminate the infection, but a little cough syrup to keep you from coughing up a lung while waiting for the antibiotics to work isn't a bad idea either.

[Xenotime]

49. Time to start taking the gun away from the psychos.

I don't know if I can handle much more bloodshed and violence. I honestly feel ill from all the death guns have brought recently.

[ShortnFiery]

50. I believe that if we research all that was going on with this family, MANY people close

to her KNEW that she needed treatment. All of us in society must take responsibility to identify people who need mental health counseling and get them treatment. The young man who killed dozens at VT was known to have mental health issues.

Instead of using slurs "crazy" why don't those of us close to a person in distress talk WITH them and attempt to get them or get the people closest to them - to SEEK OUT TREATMENT?

p.s. my last statement was convoluted but I hope you know what I mean. :blush:

[depakid]

75. Yet another example of how owning firearms increases the risk of harm to people and their families

We're talking properly stored hunting rifles here....

You can bet that neither of these two ever thought "this could happen to me" when aquired their gun(s).

[Pavulon]

79. Ban bathtubs and the internet now, mommy can drown her kids

and bad people can youtube instructions to make tatp which can destroy an airliner or train car in a fraction of a second. Ingredients are at the local drug store. Unless you live in NSW and then your government may restrict that access for you.

[depakid]

84. Fallinmg back on reductio ad absurdum is all the fireams proliferation folks have left

Sad really.

[Pavulon]

85. That and the reality that stupid gun laws = republican majority

and nothing to show for it. Short of what is done in NSW (which will NEVER happen here) there is a better approach to the problem.

However social medicine, mental health, and drug reform are hard, stupid gun laws are easy.

[depakid]

88. Fear tactics

When a large majority of Americans reach their tipping points- that will no longer be an issue.

As I've said many times (and as events have been bearing out) that's a matter of WHEN not IF.

Same holds true for universal healthcare.

[Pavulon]

107. No king here, amend the constitution

or sit down. This method of approaching this problem is silly and has run its course. 95 was a lesson. Fuck with law abiding people and ignore the problems that motivate criminals, loose political power.

Black and white simple. That does not depend on a body count.

[depakid]

121. If you understood American law- you wouldn't keep making ridiculous statements like that

The way it works (to the absolutist's dismay) is that laws can and are written -and upheld all of the time that regulate the exercise of constitutional rights in all sorts of contexts- and vis a vis one another. The nascent jurisprudence of the 2d Amendment won't be any different. Indeed, compared with some areas, it'll see far less scrutiny applied.

[Pavulon]

148. Good Luck with that. Were you around in 1995?

people have not gotten any dumber. Try to polish a turd and sell it see what happens. We have the ability to do lots of good. Or we can piss that away on nothing. Gun control is an elective thing. Like stupid drug law, only those who choose to follow.

[Dr Fate]

153. They were not bathing-they were at a shooting range. The son was too big to be drowned.

The article says the son was 20.

I'm not sure the 44 year old Mom could have taken him out with water.

[Pavulon]

185. Run him over, stab, golf club, give him antifreeze (or hundreds of fatal chemicals)

lots of ways to kill people. None really impacting my constitutional rights. Better get busy with new regulations.

[Dr Fate]

196. I think the NRA and conservatives are the ones who "better get busy" with solutions to gun violence.

Keep hedging, keep stalling, keep throwing up tortured analogies, statistics and semantics tricks instead of doing something to actually counterbalance gun violence- and then see what you end up with.

Most people are looking for solutions to gun violence- not hypotheticals and logic games.

Fact is, this young man was not killed by any of the methods you described- his mother shot him, and then shot herself in what was probabaly a hastily planned action.

[Raster]

76. Mom's mentally ill and off her meds. I know...let's go to the range and fire off some rounds!

[BrightKnight]

95. It sounds like he was just trying to spend some quality time with his mother.

I enjoy skeet shooting with my mother.

Most mentally ill people don't kill their children. The son knew his mother better than anyone here and did not think that it would be a problem. I am not saying that guns should be sold to people with a history of mental illness but the cartoon characterization of the event hides the real tragedy.

[primavera]

97. No worries

If we neglect to fully appreciate this tragedy, another one will be along momentarily, and then another, and another, and another. Why, since this one incident took place, 100 or so more Americans have been killed by guns and we haven't even noticed them. Gun tragedies are like sand on beaches, there always plenty to go around. So don't sweat it, we'll catch the next one, which should be coming up right... about... now. There goes another one. With all of those people dying, surely sooner or later we will learn to respect all of those tragedies. You might not want to hold your breath, though.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

135. Maybe it's just me, but I question the "quality" of such time.

They should have gone bowling instead.

[baldguy]

81. Another RKBA advocate exercises her rights.

[Bluebear]

98. If everyone at a shooting range had a gun this would never happen.

Oh wait...

[TankLV]

101. Good one - will be totally lost on the gun nuts...

[TankLV]

99. Well, it WAS the "appropriate" site for such a thing, after all...

give all the gun nuts guns, put them in one place away from the rest of us, and have them all shoot at each other, then the rest of us can live in PEACE...

[Pithy]

100. hmm

All this shooting violence featured prominently in the news in the last 2 weeks. Seems like someone might be wanting to make a strong case for stricter gun control. Makes you think.

[Trajan]

103. Well ... If he just had a gun to defend himself, this would not have happened ....

And SURELY anyone else with a gun (had they been in the vicinity) would have saved the say ...

Er .... wait ...

[Dr Fate]

154. What we need is bullet-proof vests. Then again, they could still drown us in bath tubs. n/t

n/t

[benEzra]

117. Just a thought, have the police ruled out the possibility

that the initial discharge was an accident (gross negligence, but not intentional), and that she then committed suicide out of remorse? Remorse suicides are not that uncommon.

Just wondering whether the initial shooting being deliberate are an assumption, or if she did express intent.

[BrightKnight]

122. I suspect that you are more or less correct about both points.

I am sure that she killed herself because the realization of what she had done was more than she could manage. A simple shooting accident is possible. Perhaps she was suffering from some form of psychosis at the time.

The vast majority of people with some form of mental illness (including schizophrenia) are no more likely to commit a crime or violent act than the general population.

I think most people find shooting at a range to be very relaxing. The idea that she went into some kind of violent rage doesn't make much sense.

It is very sad and I am not sure that anyone outside of the police and the family needs to know all of the details. The last thing that those people need now is to have this hyped up and splashed all over the National press.

[benEzra]

124. I agree.

The last thing that those people need now is to have this hyped up and splashed all over the National press.

I agree. I think the press have their personal reasons for trumpeting it right now, though.

[MaineDem]

126. That crossed my mind, too. n/t

[FudaFuda]

132. There's video now - Liveleak - 1st shot definitely not an accident. nt

[BrightKnight]

136. The range banned her because she attempted suicide there 2 years ago.

She was not permitted to purchase guns and she was not permitted to use the range.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

128. Okay, guys. Now you know why this place freaks me out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

159. Not really.

[Barack_America]

142. Mom left suicide note, thought "end of world was coming".

Suicide note from mom who killed herself and son at shooting range
By
Zack Stein

@ April 7, 2009 5:59 PM Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBacks (0)

The mother who shot her son and then herself at the Shoot Straight shooting range in Casselberry yesterday left behind several notes that may partially explain her motive for the murder/suicide - she thought the end of the world was coming.

In a suicide note left for her boyfriend, whom she calls "King," Marie Moore refers to herself as a "failed queen," writing, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to hell." She also writes "Save yourself you go to heaven with Mitch."

<snip>

In police reports Moore's ex-husband says she was not supposed to be allowed in Shoot Straight because of a previous suicide attempt, but an attorney for the range says it's simply not true.

http://wdbo.com/localnews/2009/04/suicide-note-from-mom-who-kill.html

[Critters2]

143. If only people in shooting ranges were allowed to carry guns.

Oh, wait.

[mitchum]

144. RELIGIOUSLY INSANE mom kills son, then self at Casselberry shooting range

time to ban all that supernatural horseshit

[LeftHander]

160. Families that shoot together....

Are more likely to die together of gun shot wounds.

[sabra]

161. Mom kills son, then self at shooting range (left suicide note)

Source: MSNBC/AP

'I had to send my son to Heaven and myself to Hell,' suicide note says

CASSELBERRY, Fla. - A central Florida woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range wrote in suicide notes to her boyfriend that she was trying to save her son.

"I'm so sorry," Marie Moore wrote several times. "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

She signed two of the notes "Failed Queen."

Authorities said Wednesday they still had no motive for the murder-suicide that shocked fellow customers and employees at the Shoot Straight range in Casselberry, about 10 miles north of Orlando, on Sunday.

"We have no clue. I don't even want to begin to speculate," said Deputy Chief Bill McNeil of the Casselberry Police Department.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30109090/

---

In an image taken from surveillance video, Maria Moore, 44, points a gun at her 20-year old-son Mitchell at the Shoot Straight firing range in Casselberry, Fla., on Sunday.

[Mudoria]

162. You know, why does someone intent on committing suicide feel the need to take a loved one with them?

Or complete strangers for that matter. Guess I don't understand the mental aspects of that kind of depression.

[phantom power]

163. I don't either, although you can see how religious views play into it.

She thinks she sent her son to heaven. What's not to like?

[RaleighNCDUer]

165. The 'heaven/hell' suggests religious mania.

Perhaps he suggested to her that he had issues with his sexuality, and to save him from becoming one of 'them' she needed to shoot him - which is a mortal sin, so she saved him and condemned herself.

Or she thought he was too open to the Democrats' message, so she needed to save him from the influence of the anti-christ.

Or some other insane religious bullshit.

Usually, when the parent kills the child they make themselves believe it is for the child's good. When someone goes off on strangers, it's just rage.

[No More Bushbots]

166. I support the right of loonies to suicide themselves

But stop taking innocent people with you.

[shadowknows69]

176. Some of us loonies have to make the decision of whether or not to kill ourselves daily

But this particular loony has never considered taking someone else. Thanks for your empathy toward the mentally ill.

[BrightKnight]

186. She was very seriously mentally ill and apparently not getting the help

that she very clearly needed. She was involuntarily committed after she attempted suicide. Did the mental health professionals fail her?

---
If you fell that way I hope that you have found professional help. Life really is beautiful.

[thereismore]

174. I have to go to Hell so there may be 1000 years of peace on Earth" = Christian crazy. nt

[damntexdem]

169. For one thing, suicide is a very hostile act, with hostility aimed at those who are close.

But I also suspect that many who perpetrate murder-suicides would like the whole world to end with them -- and taking loved ones is the closest they can imagine coming to that.

Then some bring in a religious angle in a truly-sick way, as this mother did.

Now, I am a suicide survivor: one who has had a close family member commit suicide. But at least he only did himself in, and only wished to do that much. It still hurt the rest of us tremendously, and we felt the hostility of the act even as we mourned and continue to miss one who was loved. Well, I can understand why he felt he had to do what he did, as stupid as I think the act was. But a parent first killing a child -- that is just beyond me.

[jobycom]

173. Mental illness. I actually feel like I can understand it, a little.

Maybe I've been around it too much in my life, or just spent too much time trying to understand loved ones. A parent often feels that they are saving their child when they kill the child. It isn't really about religion, although I think religion resonates with someone in that mindset because it uses language about eternal salvation and life after death. Someone living in hell in this world--and mental illness is hell--feels that the greatest good is escaping this world, and the greatest love for someone is helping them escape, too. The idea that there might be another life is just an added bonus.

Plus, a parent feels protective, as though they are the only ones who can save their child, and leaving a child on his own is cruelty. Mix a few basic thoughts like that in with a mental illness that makes you stew on the issues and twists any logical conclusions you might otherwise reach, add the depression and terror that goes with such an illness, and the results can get mixed up.

Delving somewhat into classic psychoanalysis, too, the primary caregiving parent forms a feeling of identity around a child, so that killing a child or saving a child can be viewed as killing or saving one's self.

Just generalizations that may or may not relate to this case, though from the clips in the video she sounds like she's doing just that--saving her kid, destroying herself, and in some ways, destroying the evil world around her by destroying herself. She says that she must do this so the world can live a thousand years of peace, that she is the anti-Christ. Often that's not so much a literal belief as a statement approximating how she feels emotionally.

She needed help, she didn't get it, and tragedy ensued. It's a fucked up world that too often brings only tears.

[grytpype]

164. Crazy + guns = bad

[FailureToCommunicate]

180. Simple but true. Crazy + (no guns) = less bad, help still possible

[BrightKnight]

181. unless she puts rat poison in his cupcakes - n/t

[madmom]

167. I would really like to know why a person with a gun was allowed

behind the firing line and why someone (the guy to the right) would allow a stranger with a loaded gun stand behind him?

[phantom power]

168. I asume the act took all of a couple seconds. What could they do?

[RaleighNCDUer]

170. It would not be unusual for an adult to look over the shoulder of

a teen who they are instructing in shooting. The guy to the right would not think anything of it, if he was even aware of it. Between the ear protection and the partition walls between booths he probably didn't even see her there until after she fired.

[madmom]

190. I saw a different video, I think the original surveillance video, that showed the

same guy talking with her before she shot, and it looked like he was helping her with something. So he knew she was there. What was he helping her with? I would never let a stranger behind me in a situation like this.

[Mojorabbit]

178. I have shot there and all I can think is

It probably happened very quick. The woman was just short of the wall behind her back. It is a pretty narrow corridor behind the cubbies.

[FailureToCommunicate]

179. Its a good thing the kid hadn't had HIS gun taken away by Obama yet. Oh, wait...

[BrightKnight]

182. It was all over in an instant. The guy was horrified and screaming for help.

The guy in the other station was chatting with them just before it happened. He appeared to be shooting when she did it. She shot her son and herself very quickly. The guy at the other station was there immediately and had a horrified look on his face. In the next frame he was apparently screaming for help.

[pattmarty]

171. Crazy motherfuckers. Why can't we get all the "crazies" together...........

..........put them in say.......Wyoming? Give each a handgun and 6 rounds of ammo and let them "have at it". Of course we would want it televised and who better to be the "panel" but Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and Bill O'reilley with Rush Limbaugh as the emcee. God, I love America!!!!

[Moonwalk]

172. Go to the link and then to the MSNBC news report. She left audio tapes of what she...

planned to do, and it's quite clear that she was batshit crazy. Which is why she took her son with her. It's really as simple as that. You listen to her and you know she should have been in a hospital on meds, and that kid should not have been in her care. She says things like god's turned her into the antichrist, and apologizes for not being rich enough to save the world, and finally, that she can't die and leave her son behind.

Bad brain chemicals. That's why.

[thereismore]

175. Yes. And an ideology to torture yourself with. nt

[bottomtheweaver]

202. Bad brain chemicals, yes, but induced by whom?

[tomm2thumbs]

177. what a horrid story - thank god he likely did not know what hit him - just horrid

[bottomtheweaver]

201. And now she's dead. Convenient.

We'll never know what drugs she was given, by whom, why, or when.

[bottomtheweaver]

200. Let me put this delicately:

if the CIA and the rest of the intel apparatus COULD make this kind of shit happen, would they? Answer: yes. Then the question is, can they? And that answer is, they've been trying their damndest for sixty years. Draw your own conclusions.

[ShortnFiery]

213. Oh Lord, back away from THAT koolaid. Nobody is going to take away our guns. REALLY!

Also, people can live both rich and full lives without owning a gun. If you struggle with anxiety or depression, it's best for EVERYONE that you don't have easy access to a gun. It doesn't make anyone "lesser than." But not unlike elderly people who lose their sight and can NOT drive a car.

We need to step back from the brink of paranoia.

Stop listening to the CRAZIES in the leadership of the NRA. :shrug:

Simply think, "I'll take firing ranges to avoid for $100 Alex." :evilgrin:

[bottomtheweaver]

215. Oh there's no danger of that, I'm confident. It's a little more sinister

I'm afraid. Basically we're being terrorized by our own government, specifically by the monstrous network of totally unaccountable intel agencies we've allowed it to spawn, for the opposite purpose of creating an insatiable need for weapons, surveillance systems, prisons, privacy intrusions, and all the rest of the gloriously profitable claptrap the state intelligence apparatus craves.

[panzerfaust]

203. 'I'm the anti-Christ': shooting range murder-suicide

Source: The Age (Oz)



A US woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range said she was the anti-Christ and that she needed to save her son.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/im-the-antichrist-shooting-range-murdersuicide-20090409-a12j.html?page=-1

---

God and Guns

Great Combo

[jpak]

204. In this case, the term "gun nut" is apropos

n/t

[stray cat]

205. Actually probably just a nut who used a gun

[havocmom]

206. no, just plain 'nut'

People so insane with delusions because they cannot deal with facing the reality that we each have very little personal power and not gun nuts, they are just mentally unhealthy. The society is very unhealthy or there wouldn't be so many seriously mentally ill people wandering around without help.

We need to work towards a more functional society where people actually grow up able to deal with REALITY and make positive changes when reality needs improving (and it can always stand improving). Letting huge numbers of people go on believing in delusions is the problem.

Guns are just part of the tools used by sick people. Sick people are often made that way by other sick people. That does more damage than guns.

[BeyondGeography]

207. So many unhinged people in this country

[ShortnFiery]

214. And many of THEM are "US" or some of those "CLOSE TO US." nt