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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:11 PM
Original message
Venezuela's Chavez calls Obama "ignoramus"
Source: Reuters


Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:24pm EDT

(Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday his U.S. counterpart Barack Obama was at best an "ignoramus" for saying the socialist leader exported terrorism and obstructed progress in Latin America.

"He goes and accuses me of exporting terrorism: the least I can say is that he's a poor ignoramus; he should read and study a little to understand reality," said Chavez, who heads a group of left-wing Latin American leaders opposed to the U.S. influence in the region.

Chavez said Obama's comments had made him change his mind about sending a new ambassador to Washington, after he withdrew the previous envoy in a dispute last year with the Bush administration in which he also expelled the U.S. ambassador to Venezuela.

"When I saw Obama saying what he said, I put the decision back in the drawer; let's wait and see," Chavez said on his weekly television show, adding he had wanted to send a new ambassador to improve relations with the United States after the departure of George W. Bush as president.

<snip>


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE52L19G200...



Have at it, Chavistas and non-Chavistas.
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Doctor Cynic Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Running out of time, running out of money, and running out of a bogeyman.
I know! Make another one!
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hes trying to provoke him
Resist, and open the US to Cuba - that will LITERALLY show him!
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Remember the Arkansas Project?
The media wa part of the anti-Clinton propaganda war.
This is just more of the same genre liberal bashing,
albeit this is an improvement on shooting us in the heads!

Deja DU: Bush vs. Gore, the 'Arkansas Project,' the USA firings, and the Swiftboat Admiral
Jun-02-07 0 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
71. Yes, You make an excellent point. Remember our M$M is NOT free nor fair. n/t
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
162. Provocation -- From Whom?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 09:36 AM by justinaforjustice
The provocation came from Obama, who publicly castigated Chavez for "Exporting terrorism", a charge that is baseless. Chavez's contacts with the FARC were at the official request of Colombia's president, Uribe, who asked Chavez to negotiate for the release of FARC's Colombian hostages. Chavez did so with much success, although greatly hampered by the U.S.'s equipping a Colombian military team, from its base in Ecuador, which illegally bombed the Ecuadorian camp of the FARC's chief negotiator, thus committing murder, international crimes, and obstructing the release of hostages.

Obama's charge is also almost laughably hypocritical, coming as it does from a country which has done little but foment anti-democratic terrorism and commit international crimes Latin American and around the world for more than the last hundred years.
Is the U.S.'s illegal invasion of Iraq not a terrorist act of the most horrendous proportions?

But, in response, did Chavez even call Obama an ignoramus? No, the translation "ignoramus" is in-exact:

CARACAS, Venezuela Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday called President Barack Obama "ignorant," saying he has a lot to learn about Latin America.

The socialist leader said he had been ready to name a new ambassador in Washington when Obama took office, but put that on hold after the new U.S. president accused him of "exporting terrorism" and being an obstacle to progress in the region.

"At least one could say, 'poor ignorant person,'" Chavez said on his weekly television and radio program, adding that Obama "should read a little bit so that he learns about ... the reality of Latin America


www.idahostatesman.com/worldnews/story/706941.html >


Either President Obama is truly ignorant about Venezuela and relying on the same State Department hacks who wrote Bush administration press releases about Chavez and Venezuela, or he is building Chavez into his own straw man, pandering to right wingers, to prove how tough he is on terrorism. In either case, Obama's accusations against Chavez are patiently false and he should be ashamed of them. Why go out of his way to make scurrilous remarks about the democratically elected president of another country who supplies the U.S. with oil and who has made statements indicating his desire to improve relations with the U.S.?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #162
190. Justina, do you think that Obama repeated those remarks to Lula
during their recent meeting, and that's why Chavez is bringing this up again?
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #190
227. I Really Don't Know.
But obviously Chavez was not happy about the report he got from Lula on his meeting with Obama. It seems inexplicable that Obama is going out of his way to attack Chavez as "exporting terrorism" and disrupting Latin America, other than that Obama is using this apparent "toughness" against Chavez to prove he is not the "socialist" that the right wing claims.

It may be that Obama believes that if he shows even basic civility toward Chavez, he will be tarred as an evil Chavista. But, the right wing is going to call him a socialist -- and many things worse -- no matter what he does, so it is a destructive waste of breath to attack Chavez in order to stave off the right. I think Chavez was disposed to be a friend of Obama's, but these baseless attacks are driving him away.

The Venezuelan people were very, very supportive of Obama's election, and it is too bad that Obama is erasing that support by his
factually baseless attacks on Chavez and their country. Everyone here knows that Chavez is not a terrorist and doesn't support terrorism.

He has always acted to avoid violence, even refusing to attack or jail most of the oppositionists who carried out the illegal coup against him in 2002. Indeed, when the coup started, many of his supporters were pleading with him to resist it violently. He refused to do so, saying that armed resistance would cause a blood bath and he wasn't going to see people killed. He actually left the Miraflores Palace peacefully when they arrested him, although he refused to renounce the presidency, despite the fact that his thousands of supporters would have fought to the death for him had he called on them to do so. The thousands of people who took to the streets to demand his return did so peacefully, but there were so many of them that the coup leaders were completely overwhelmed.

In the two years I've been here, I've observed that, in face of deliberately provocative opposition demonstrations against him, Chavez has put the police under extreme restraints prohibiting them from injuring anyone. An inconvenient result of that restraint is that the oppositionists frequently block streets with tire fires in their demonstrations, stopping traffic and greatly inconveniencing the rest of the citizens.

One of the major impetuses to Chavez's revolutionary career was the terrible massacre of more than 2000 people by the Prez government carried out against innocent protesters in Caracas in 1989, known as "El Caracazo". The protests were triggered by Prez's imposition of severe International Monetary Fund restrictions.

Chavez organized progressive young officers and soldiers in the military to refuse to act against the people. It was these progressive soldiers, wanting to stop the corruption and repression in the country, who participated in the failed uprising of 1992 for which Chavez took responsibility and was jailed. Up until Chavez's election in 1998, the majority of Venezuelans were very poor and very brutally governed. Chavez, in contrast, has been the very opposite. He is certainly not a dictator by any stretch of the imagination. The majority of the people have an enormous human affection for him.

There is an excellent biography of Chavez's - and Bolivarian Socialism's -- development, titled "Chavez Nuestro" (Our Chavez) by Rosa Mirium Elizaldi and Luis Bez (Havana, 2006), though I'm not sure it has been translated into English. It sheds a great deal
of light on Chavez's roots, actions and ideas. I certainly wish Obama would read it!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #227
235. Good points, especially about violence. Yes, I saw how peacefully
he left Miraflores and also have observed how much restraint has been exercised when those brats start setting fires in the streets.

Speaking of books, Obama's remarks about Chavez sound like they're straight out of that horrible Doug Schoen's new book. Thom Hartmann demolished Schoen when he was on his show. I hope Obama's State Department manages to get its act together. Lula didn't sound thrilled about his recent meeting with the president.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #227
236. You are correct that Chavez was not happy
and for that matter, Lula apparently was not either.

From a Brazilian newspaper, the nut graphs: (translation mine)

"Lula foi se reunir com Obama (em Washington) e eu aceitei que fizesse uma intermediao entre ns. Mandei-lhe uma mensagem na qual escrevi todas as declaraes contra a Venezuela feitas pelas autoridades da Administrao de Obama, entre elas as da sra. (secretria de Estado americana, Hillary) Clinton", disse Chvez.

"Lula went to meet with Obama (in Washington) and I agreed that (Lula) mediate between us. I sent him (Obama) a message in which I wrote all the remarks against Venezuela made by officials of Obama's administration, among them by Hillary Clinton," Chavez said.

O presidente venezuelano, que no deu mais detalhes do contedo dessa mensagem, acrescentou que, "infelizmente, Lula saiu insatisfeito com a resposta de Obama".

The Venezuelan president, who did not give more details of the message's content, added "unfortunately, Lula emerged unsatisfied with Obama's response."

"Mediante o que li nas entrelinhas e expresses (da resposta), conclu que Obama sofre de algo que pode ser superado: a ignorncia do que acontece de verdade na aqui (Amrica Latina)", disse Chvez.

According to what I read between lines and the expressions (in the response), I concluded that Obama suffers from something that can be overcome; ignorance of what truly occurs (in Latin America), Chavez said.

Segundo o chefe de Estado, essa ignorncia se deve ao fato de o presidente dos Estados Unidos "ainda ouvir a mesma coisa que lhe leem alguns assessores do Pentgono e da Casa Branca que serviram Administrao anterior".

According to the head of state, that ignorance is due to the fact that the president of the United States "is still hearing the same thing read to him by some advisors who worked for the previous administration in the Pentagon and the White House.

Full article (Portuguese)

http://portalmaratimba.com/noticias/news2.php?codnot=24...



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #236
237. The State Department is as polluted as the Justice Department.
Ditto for the Pentagon. It's going to take years to clean up this government if it can be managed at all.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #236
238. This article from Lula's own country sounds exactly the way the more thoughtful
posters who also read the Spanish version of the news said it was written, and that it was the corporate message formed to mold public perception here which claimed, as always, Chavez was calling someone a name. What we got was a poor translation designed to inflame the slow, and willfully uninformed among us.

If I'm not mistaken I think you also mentioned in an earlier post your own reading of the Spanish articles.s

Isn't this sad? These passages are excellent, from portalmaratimba.com:
According to what I read between lines and the expressions (in the response), I concluded that Obama suffers from something that can be overcome; ignorance of what truly occurs (in Latin America), Chavez said.
And:
According to the head of state, that ignorance is due to the fact that the president of the United States "is still hearing the same thing read to him by some advisors who worked for the previous administration in the Pentagon and the White House.
I remember reading years ago you were in Brazil. I should have realized back then you also are fluent with that language, as well.

Thank you for shedding more and more light on this.
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
254. Actually,
he's been quite reserved considering the sort of comments coming out from the Obama administration about the Chavez government in the last 3 months. Guess he couldn't keep it back any longer.
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David_NSU Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Chavez is crazy...
he had a chance to be civil towards the US once again and he blew it
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
86. Doing you know what Obama did during his inauguration week, David_NSU?
If you know what Chavez is reacting to, then you know that it was Obama who had a chance to be civil to Chavez and he blew it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #86
93. Do you have a ref, Peace Patriot? Because I remember that
but have lost the text.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
112. When has the US ever been civil to the people of Latin America?
Do you even have a clue as to what America has done in Latin America?

Question: Where is the biggest terrorist training camp within the United States?
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Chavez has shown me the light...
I guess we can right this down as gospel. :sarcasm:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
Yes, Chavez and Latin Americans are reacting to organized political murder of liberals and social activists.

Check out 160 some posts here if you are an Ignoramus about this issue:
==================
Deja DU: George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
Dec-12-07 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plan Condor: Crimes Without Borders in Latin America
Marie Trigona - 12 Dec 2007 - http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1042/1

Former military dictator Jorge Rafael Videla and 16 other military leaders in Argentina will be prosecuted on charges of conspiring to kidnap and kill political activists in a scheme known as Plan Condor, developed by Henry Kissinger and George Bush Sr., head of the CIA at the time. Dictators in Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina killed opponents in the 1970s and 80s under the plan, also known as Operation Condor. The United States and Latin American military governments developed Operation Condor as a a transnational, state-sponsored terrorist coalition among the militaries of South America. In Argentina alone some 30,000 people were disappeared as result, leaving loved ones to seek justice decades later.

Coordinating Terror with U.S. support

Plan Condor began with the U.S. supported military coup against Chile's democratically elected socialist president, Salvador Allende. Allende's government was targeted as a threat to U.S. strategic policy in Latin America early on. White House tapes reveal that on Sept. 14, 1970, then-President Richard Nixon ordered measures to force the Chilean economy into bankruptcy. "The U.S. will not accept a Marxist government just because of the irresponsibility of the Chilean people," declared Henry Kissinger, Nixons secretary of State.

Declassified U.S. Department of State documents have provided evidence to Plan Condor's broad scope. The Operation was an ambitious and successful plan to coordinate repression internationally. FBI special agent intelligence liason to the Southern Cone countries Robert Scherrer (now deceased) sent the letter to the U.S. embassy in Argentina on September 28, 1976: "'Operation Condor' is the code name for the collection, exchange and storage of intelligence data concerning so-called 'leftists,' communists and Marxists, which was recently established between cooperating intelligence services in South America in order to eliminate Marxist terrorist activities in the area."

The memo also specified Argentina's enthusiasm over the plan. "Members of 'Operation Condor' showing the most enthusiasm to date have been Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. The latter three countries have engaged in joint operations, primarily in Argentina, against the terrorist target." Operation Condor has been difficult to investigate, due to the selectivity of victims and lack of official declassified documents from the CIA and Department of State. Many of the documents that have been released have been heavily censored. However, following an extensive investigation by Argentine courts beginning in 1999 and the decade long work of human rights groups to collect forensic evidence, 17 military leaders will be put on trial for their participation in the illegal persecution of social activists.

............
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
150. George Bush Sr.?
How can we take the author seriously if she doesn't know the name of the person she is writing the article about?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
64. Thanks God the US has never promote terrorism
:sarcasm:

Brazil urges US not to interfere in Latin America


President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva used his weekly radio address on Monday to ask the White House to develop fresh Latin ties based on a "vision of partnership and not interference, of contribution and not intervention."

"I am convinced that the United States can definitely have another sort of relationship with Latin America," said Lula on Monday, after a Saturday meeting with US President Barack Obama in Washington, Xinhua reported.

Lula, who has not yet wrapped up his US trip, said Latin American countries and the US should join forces to tackle the global economic firestorm.

Lula, speaking at a Wall Street Journal-sponsored investment forum in New York, also insisted that the United States should lift Cuba sanctions, noting the controversial measure makes no sense in the 21st Century.

"There is nothing any more from the political perspective, from sociological perspective, from the humanitarian perspective that impedes the reestablishment of relations between the United States and Cuba," Lula said.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article159387.html
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
185. Well chosen, accurate words from Lula. Thanks for adding his informed, valuable comments. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #185
198. Judi Lynn, do you think Obama repeated the Bush State Dept talking points to Lula
during that meeting? I'm beginning to think that's what happened.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #198
205. Haven't seen one word written about it. Not one. Sure would like to know,
since he's conducting our foreign policy in our names.

He hasn't made the slightest step away from that entrenched bully, dominator position which everyone knows is going to be going on a radical diet, once its constant feeding on Latin American forced submission and exploitation becomes curtailed. That shift is inevitable, only the blindest of the blind don't see it yet.

They don't want to go through their past over and over again. Too expensive in destroyed lives, broken people. They don't want it. What sane man/woman could hold it against them, after all?

Some U.S. President's going to have to face reality, and start acting civilized as our national leader, and treat Latin American leaders with honest respect, not just the one fascist Uribe, and his bitterly insufficient but obsequious collegue, Alan Garcia in Peru.

All I've heard of that meeting was that they expect to continue the conversation at the upcoming summit in April. What about you?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #205
206. Well, the premise of this report about Chavez is that he got a report
from Lula and that's why he made these comments. It could be pure fiction but then again, it could be dead on. Hard to see any other reason for those unfortunate comments to be brought up again. :shrug:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #206
211. I've looked around a while, and still can't find any real news on what was discussed.
It looked as if Lula da Silva and Chavez both had a bit of hope a lot of misunderstandings could be cleared up in that meeting. They had actually seemed optomistic about Lula's trip earlier in the month.

It doesn't look as if that happened, does it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
95. The word is "write". And you can also stop attending your grad classes on Latin America
which I'm sure will be a huge relief to you.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
129. Obama is no ignoramus. However, whether or not Obama blew an opportunity with
Chavez (or vice versa) is probably neither gospel nor apochryphal, but something in between.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Anyone who says Chavez exports terrorism *is* an ignoramus. I have not seen one act of terrorism
come out of that country since Chavez was elected President.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And anyone who calls our President that is an ignorant SOB
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 04:35 PM by ailsagirl
Even the repugs don't resort to that!!

:puke:
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. yes, and here what President Obama was referring to
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 04:37 PM by Bacchus39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sEWDlTirWU

Chavez denying supporting the FARC after venerating the FARC.

Chavez is a disgusting pig. the meeting in Trinidad next month should be interesting though.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
66. Venezuelans Exiles: Parallels between Barack Obama and Hugo Chavez
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 11:18 PM by AlphaCentauri
Any one wonders how the Oligarch living in the US voted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgCI7fuIRRw
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. The point is too subtle for the people who read headlines
and never wonder where they came from. Of course the anti-Chavez Venezuelans were also anti-Obama. That's rocket science if I ever saw it.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. Are they the same who now say nobody mess with my president?
but want him to fail

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. What are you ref'ing, Alpha?
I checked out for most of the day and started learning Pipil (Nawat).

And, hey! Xipe Totec is a Corn Goddess among us and I NEVER knew! lol :hi:
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #88
98. since we are at it
I'm referring to the center-right democ... }(

here are two more words in Nahuatl

Macehualtin: left wing peasants, farm workers, labors, teachers, doctors,

Pipiltin: CEO's (like AIG's executives), Bankers, Investors

you got the idea ;)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. Pipiltin. I'll remember that one.
}(
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. There is one name I like a lot

ITZEL: Rainbow Lady

:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. x!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #83
133. I have not seen them saying "Don't mess with my President," only that someone
further left than our President is a POS in general.

If you read the posts, you can pick out those on this thread who probably have a lot more in common with Freepers than they do with DUers.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Don't think you can tell Democrats what Republicans call the President.
We know for ourselves what he's been called by the filthy right-wingers.

Democrats tend to read a lot more than Republicans, and Republican posters.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Something has probably got lost in translation.
You'd need to quote the exact word he use. Find out what it was before you jump on your high horse.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
101. Good point, Dipsydoodle. Chavez has been mistranslated before.
And this is a Rotters report. They as as bad as the Associated Pukes and the Wall Street Urinal. They would most certainly misquote Chavez to stir up trouble, and try to prevent fairer and more just U.S. policy in Latin America--the global corporate predator rape and ruin playground. But Chavez is a blunt man, as I discuss below. And he has reason to feel injured in this case. Obama seems to be following the Bushwhack "divide and conquer" strategy which was a colossal failure. Isn't that the definition of insanity? To keep doing something that has been a colossal failure? I am hoping that "failsafe" has not been reached, continuing the Bushwhack insane course to a point beyond which good U.S./Latin American relations are irretrievable.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #101
145. Not only misquotes or bad translations. Sometimes, media simply makes up
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:46 AM by No Elephants
stuff from whole cloth. You want, at a minimum, a direct quote. Things like "So and so said" or "So and so broke a promise," etc. is very likely to be bs, utterly devoid of truth or basis. In the first example, you want at least one direct quote. In the second example, you want at least two direct quotes (the exact wording of original promise and also of the statement that supposedly recanted the original promise). Without direct quotes, don't even bite.

And, yes, if the source is in a foreign language, you want that, too. If nothing else, remember Hillary and her "reset" button. And that was not even the corporate media (or intentional). That was the U.S., making an effort to be lighthearted, but accurate.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. No body is perfect even the president may ignore some facts about latin america
I understand that president Obama could be speaking for what he was toll by third parties, knowing that Univision is a run by RW republicans he probably was trying to please that political sector.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
96. Chavez is a blunt man. I wouldn't descibe Obama as an ignoramus. But
Chavez certainly has a right to. He is the one who was wronged, by Obama's interview on a rightwing corpo 'news' monopoly during his inauguration week, following some Bushwhack script about Chavez loving "terrorists" and being "bad for the progress of the region." Both things are wrong--untruthful, uninformed. So I would call Obama ignorant of South American events and trends, badly misinformed and very ill-served by someone, probably partly the Bushwhack holdovers in the State Dept., the foreign service and the CIA. Latin America has obviously been on Obama's "backburner," and that is understandable, considering what he has had to deal with his first two months in office (the Bushwhacks' Financial 9/11, and two wars). But Latin American policy has suffered, and somebody--or several parties--have been creating problems where there don't need to be problems. I would call that broadcast a major blunder. It was designed to provoke Chavez, and it did. Now Obama is stuck with that, unless he does something dramatic to reverse it. He has inflicted further injury on an elected president--not to mention a very popular president within Venezuela and throughout the region, including many Chavez friends and allies among South America's leaders--who was the target of Bushwhack assassination and coup plots. It must seem to Chavez that Obama agrees with that Rumsfeldian shit. And it is up to Obama to change that impression, unless he isinto that shit. Ignoramus, no. Ignorant, apparently. And making what may be grievous mistakes in Latin American foreign policy, basically pitting the U.S. against the vast majority of Latin Americans, once again.
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The abyss Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #96
217. 
Question, if I may. Judi posted this story:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Not much in the way of comments, as of yet. I am wondering if there is not a linkage here? A kind of good cop bad cop approach in attempting to change the US historical approach to SA?

Yes/No/Maybe?



Thanks!


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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
130. Anyone who calls Obama an ignoramus is wrong. However, Repugs have called
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 06:24 AM by No Elephants
Obama that and a lot worse. Surprised a Democrat would say otherwise, but maybe you simply run into Repugs that post more civilly than the ones I run into. That's why I stopped posting where they are welcome to post. Then I learned some of the morans post here regularly.

I don't blame Rethugs for wanting to post with Democrats, but they don't belong here. Amoong other things, it's very dishonest to post on a Democratic board if you are not a Democrat. And they certainly don't fool anyone.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. If Obama said this he IS an ignoramus!
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 06:05 PM by L. Coyote
In a January interview with Spanish-language U.S. network Univision,
Obama said Chavez had hindered progress in Latin America, accusing him
of exporting terrorist activities and supporting Colombian guerrillas.

But, who trusts Reuters?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
134. Or AP? Or UPI? Yet, they are going to supply most or all of the
actual national and international news. Newspapers are dropping like flies and those that remain mostly reprint stories from the wire services, as do Internet sources--at least the Internet sources that don't simple make up their stories.

It's a brave, new world into which we are entering and I don't like it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
84. The actual quote was 'pobre ignorante' according to Venezuelan press
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 12:18 AM by IndianaGreen
Chavez did not call Obama an ignoramus, but an ignorant poor man.

Chvez califica a Obama de "pobre ignorante" y lo manda a leer

http://politica.eluniversal.com/2009/03/22/pol_ava_chav...
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is so mind boggling...does Venezuela really deserve to be our enemy?



do they have nukes? where is the threat ? We buy billions in oil from them and they have even helped our own poor with lower heating bills.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We are wasting a huge opportunity by not allying with Venezuela. (nt)
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. yeah, Obama can simply ignore Chavez. Chavez is just a big fat baby crying for attention n/t
s
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Huge ego still pissed Obama keeps the weapons embargo in place against him
And after Chavez 'ordered' the price of oil cut from $60 to $40 bbl while the US laughed at his 'openness' to hosting Russian bombers


http://english.eluniversal.com/2009/03/17/en_pol_art_us...
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
51. Venezuela buys huge amounts of food from the U.S.
Except they will not grow GMO crops in Venezuela. I wonder how they get around not getting GMO food from America.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
168. That's why they make such a good enemy
No danger to the U.S.

"pobre ignorante". I'm glad someone grabbed the actual words. That isn't ignoramus.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #168
244. It just occurred to me that while China is destroying Tibet
Hillary Clinton said, on her last visit, that she wasn't broaching the issue of human rights. But both Clinton and Obama has now repeated the Bush bs that Chavez supports terrorism, an accusation for which there is no shred of evidence. Unreal.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #244
245. Strawmen need to not be able to nuke us out of existence
Besides, we've used the Central and South American countries as our whipping boys for so long, it's hard to break the pattern.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. I wouldn't call Obama an ignoramus..
I'd call him a company man, or an American President following tradition.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
169. I like the phrase, "reluctant populist".
I think it hits the nail on the head.
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mecherosegarden Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. and Chavez is one big "stupidamus"
me...

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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. this will be fun to watch ... the Repukes suddenly saying nice things about
Chavez ... after painting him as just slightly more evil than Satan ...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
139. IMO, it's more likely, they will just bash Chavez without saying anything good about
Obama. At least, that's what the usual suspects have been doing on this thread.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Did he really, really, really call Obama "an ignoramus"?
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 05:30 PM by tuvor
'Cause not all reports mention it. In fact, only two do:

http://news.google.ca/news?pz=1&ned=ca&hl=en&q=obama+ch...

For example, from the International Herald Tribune:

Chavez: Obama seems to lack knowledge on region

CARACAS, Venezuela: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said President Barack Obama doesn't seem to know much about what's going on in Latin America.

Chavez made the remark in clips of an interview with Al-Jazeera shown late Friday, also saying Brazil's president came away from his recent talks with Obama not entirely pleased.

"What I read between the lines," Chavez said, is that "Obama has for now and that can be overcome a great lack of knowledge about what's really going on here" in Latin America.

The Venezuelan leader also said he thinks Obama "is still reading the same garbage the advisers pass on to him." He told the pan-Arab TV channel that Obama seems to be taking advice from many of the same officials who worked under former President George Bush.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/03/21/news/LT-Venez...

Sorry, Reuters, I smell bullshit.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Technically, ignoramus just means "ignorant person"
Yet it obviously has a much more pejorative sound than just saying someone is revealing his ignorance of a given subject. It may be that someone decided to translate this speech as provocatively as possible.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignoramus
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. ..and not to be confused with "dances with morons"
splitting hairs to cover some translaters ass?

Hugo threw out US diplomats so the writing is on the wall, he doesn't want to lose a straw man
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. So did Nicaragua, Ecuador and Bolivia. I guess Chavez made them do it!
You slay me. lol
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bgr1938 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. i have to agree
with eferrari on this. chavez calls them as he sees them,but in this Case it was probably mis-translated, someone trying to stir the pot. can't have President obama making friends with President chavez. no no no
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Chavez is always reported this way. I bet you most people here
who jump on these threads couldn't name the leader of Ecuador or Bolivia. The corporate media has done a pretty good job of making him a negative figure. Here's a good article on that topic:

The New York Times Versus Chavez

May 23rd 2006, by Greg Grandin - CounterPunch.org

You can tell that the US-led campaign against Hugo Chvez has reached a critical stage when the New York Times starts providing rhetorical cover for Condoleezza Rice's and Donald Rumsfeld's increasingly desperate efforts to isolate the Venezuelan president.

Chile's center-left president Michelle Bachelet -- who Rice name-drops every chance she gets to prove she can have socialist friends -- just last week warned Washington not to "demonize" Chvez. Yet despite this endorsement from Latin America's most lauded reformer, the Times on Saturday ran a 1300-word, front-page hatchet job by Juan Forero titled "Seeking United Latin America, Venezuela's Chvez Is a Divider; Some Neighbors Resent His Style as Meddlesome."

The article quotes seven sources, all openly anti-Chvez save for Brazil's president Luiz Incio Lula da Silva. Lula, like Bachelet, has repeatedly defended his Venezuelan counterpart against Washington. But Forero ignores this support, instead choosing to cherry-pick through Lula's public statements to find, and take out of context, a rare criticism.

Other supposedly objective comments come from the center-right -- NYU's Jorge Castaeda -- to the Right-Right -- Johns Hopkin's Riordan Roett -- of the political spectrum. Its worth noting that Roett's primary claim to fame was a 1995 memo he wrote while an emerging-market consultant to Chase Manhattan Bank urging the Mexican government to "eliminate the Zapatistas" and to slowdown democratic reforms. Now that's "meddlesome."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1755
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. do you support Obama or Chavez? n/t
s
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. It's a small world, I support them both.
Why on earth would anyone want to do otherwise.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. Re-pugs, divide and conquer
in post #66 there is a video where RW nuts compare Obama and Hugo Chavez, at first they did not Obama to win then they are trying to create discrepancies between the two countries.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
170. We have been one of central and south Americas biggest problems
I don't blame them for throwing us out on our asses.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I agree with your hunch.
I'm having trouble taking any news item at face value anymore. Probably should have adopted that attitude years ago, but better late than never, I guess.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Exactly so. This sort of thing exasperates me.
Of course, you have only to look at several of the posts above yours to see why they do it. It works. So many Americans have already decided what they want to believe (in this case that Chavez is a dictator, that he steals elections, eats babies, etc.), all they need is someone to give them justification for it. It doesn't need to be true, hardly anyone is going to check anyway.

Honestly though, as the President of a nation that was unjustly accused of exporting terrorism, I wouldn't blame him if he did say exactly what was claimed. It's an outrageous accusation to have leveled against Venezuela.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. Today, some posters were upset because Obama was asked if he was punch drunk.
:shrug:
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. thank you.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. OF COURSE NOT!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. Yup. More bullshit.
Figures.

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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Why did Obama say those ignorant things?
rhetorical question
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Maybe Chavez will 'challenge' Obama to a bowling match next month in Trinidad
and settle the he said she said tiff once and for all
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. Reuters = Propaganda
"Chavez, who heads a group of left-wing Latin American leaders..." What BS.

They don't need a leader to be "opposed to the U.S. influence in the region".

What a horrid piece of journalism.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Peace Patriot calls them "Rotters" and she's right. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. 'Way to post flame bait, cali. n.t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. guilty as charged
I think the Chavez wars are the most amusing thing on DU.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. The Chavez wars on DU are stupid and completely unproductive
Chavez is fucking annoying as are arguments on both sides of this. I am not sure why anyone cares about this dude enough to flame on about him and I am not sure why anyone would purposely want to start a flame war based on Chavez and give the mods more crap to clean up.

Isn't posting flame-bait against the rules anyway?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Chavez is not
annoying! Isn't posting flame-bait against the rules?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Cause he's got oil, and is nationalizing the Big Corporate Interests
Which is in his right as a leader of a Sovereign country.

I puts the idiotic policies of the CIA in their respective place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. So you've said over and over and over. In fact, that's usually
the sum of your contribution. How nice for you to find the war on democracy in Latin America so entertaining! It must be a relief to the insects and small animals in your neighborhood.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
123. yes, yes. finding the silly battles over Chavez
here funny is de facto evidence that I pull the wings off flies. Sorry, it's not. And face it, virtually everything posted here about Chavez is flamebait to those who worship him and those who loath him.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #123
136. Well, at least we've had a demonstration of the difference between classic trolling
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:02 AM by No Elephants
and having a sense of humor. No one with a sense of humor would have responded to the insect post as though it had been meant literally.

"And face it," what you said about Chavez threads applies equally to threads about Hillary or Obama or any prominent personality, including the Pope.






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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. nah, chavez threads
are actually quite revealing. they illustrate the black/white good/evil mindset that so many have here in a way that's pretty singular. chavez isn't an actual human being so much as a symbol. I find the whole thing fascinating. And it's not like he has any real impact on the lives of Americans.

.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #143
149. In your mind, MAYbe, the black/white reactions to Chavez are singular. However, that opinion may
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 08:02 AM by No Elephants
say more about your fixation than it does about objective reality. Or it may be something you say to justify yourself.

To my mind, posts on threads about Hillary, Obama, Pope, etc. threads are equally black and white as posts about Chavez, if not more so. Then again, I have no investment making one of those folks wrong (or right).

And, as you know, Chavez most certainly does have real impact on the lives of many Americans. As I posted on another of you Chavez threads, his donations of home heating fuel alone have quite an impact, lifesaving, in fact.

However, none of the above addresses your self-confessed enjoyment of your intentional flamebaiting, does it?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #149
158. lol.
no, Chavez really has very little impact on the lives of Americans. There are only about ten thousand things that have more of an impact. That he sold cheap heating oil to those in MA for a short time is pretty irrelevant to the lives of the vast majority of Americans. And he hasn't done it in a couple of years.

And you're just wrong about threads about Hillary and Obama. The flame wars were in the context of a heated primary. Chavez threads are a different animal. They bring out those that have a very black white view on political phiolosphy.

And I hardly have an obsession. It's more like a casual past time.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #158
166. So you admit it-you're all about shit stirring as a past time. I knew it all along.
:puke:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #158
179. You're misinformed, cali. The heating oil program is ongoing.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #158
184. People receiving heating oil from Venezuela in 23 states would disagree with your view
the heating oil program is irrelevant.
Last year, the heating oil program provided some 200,000 households in 23 states with fuel, including over 65 Native American tribes and large low-income housing cooperatives in New York City. In addition, the CITGO funds provided heating grants to over 210 homeless shelters in 14 states. The 2008-2009 heating season marks the fourth year of CITGOs donations.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/38785

If you took only a fragment of the time you spent attempting to slash away at people you want to mock, in getting informed on the subjects they have made a point to find out about themselves, you'd be doing yourself a favor, and have a more positive impact when you decide you want to set up some serious people for ridicule by starting another flamefest.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #158
248. You are misinformed. Citgo has donated oil every year, including this one. Limbaugh was babbling
Edited on Tue Mar-24-09 05:13 PM by No Elephants
that Chavez (Citgo) left Joe Kennedy "high and dry" this year, but he was wrong. Citgo came through this year as well. According to Joe Kennedy, Citgo provides ninety percent of the funding for Joe Kennedy's program nationwide, not only in Massachusetts.

As to my being wrong about the Hillary or Obama threads, LOL. Just post something in any forum that criticizes Hillary and see what happens.

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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #143
228. Speak for yourself. n/t
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #41
135. Now, THAT's actually funny.
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. haha I agree.. Chavez and guns.. Imagine the two topics combined.. GASP..
I'm easily amused.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #52
137. Apparently, you are not alone.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. Why would Obama say such a thing if he wants to mend
broken relationships that shrub Co caused?

Chavez is not doing himself any favors by stirring the pot. Who cares if Chavez lets Russia house bombers in his country, it is his country. At least they do not have military bases all over the world. The US attitude of 'Do as I say, not as I do' is bullshit and needs to stop.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. do you think Obama is overly disappointed that Chavez hasn't named an ambassador?
I think not. Obama just met with President Lula of Brazil. Mexico is a much more pressing concern. Colombia remains a US ally. Chavez and Venezuela are not at the top of the list if they are even on it. Venezuela sells oil, we buy it. what else?


its just crap mouth Chavez spouting off. Obama isn't going to dignify this pig with a response.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
212. And you just love an "ally" that accounts for half the murdered labor organizers in the world
Quite a few of us don't at all identify with the white sociopathic shitstains who have been bleeding Latin America dry for a few centuries.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
151. Perhaps the President believes what he is saying is true
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. Chavez a histrionic troll; film at 11 (nt)
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED - 1:14:31
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED - 1:14:31 - Apr 23, 2006
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED DIRECTED AND PHOTOGRAPHED BY KIM BARTLEY AND DONNACHA O'BRIAIN IRELAND, 2003 74 MINUTES IN SPANISH WITH ENGLISH SUBTITLES HUGO CHAVEZ ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA IN 1998, IS A COLORFUL, UNPREDICTABLE FOLK HERO, beloved by his nation's working class and a tough-as-nails, quixotic opponent to the power structure that would see him deposed. Two independent filmmakers were inside the presidential palace on April 11, 2002, when he was forcibly removed from office. They were also present 48 hours later when, remarkably, he returned to power amid cheering aides. Their film records what was probably history's shortest-lived coup d'tat. It's a unique document about political muscle and an extraordinary portrait of the man The Wall Street Journal credits with making Venezuela "Washingtons biggest Latin American headache after the old standby, Cuba."
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espiral Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
35. Typical US media bias
"left-wing Latin American leaders", oy vey. Anything to keep that good ole McCarthyism endlessly stoked in this country...
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Thomson Reuters is the world's largest international multimedia news agency
Thomson Reuters shares are listed on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE: TRI);
Last Trade: 25.46
Down from 39.75 in just the last year!!!

Thomson Reuters is the world's largest international multimedia news agency ....
"Thomson Reuters journalists are subject to an Editorial Handbook which requires fair presentation and disclosure of relevant interests."
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espiral Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. re:
Come on; do you honestly believe that the world's mainstream press is immune from capitalist bias?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. I believe that was the poster's point.
:)
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #69
121. Indeed. Propaganda often is released in international media.
Corporatism has no boundaries. Ask Murdock!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
207. When I want to see what the right wing is up to, I google a story
and count the reiterations aka, spam.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
42. Oh, Mr Chavez, I want you to be the father of you children!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
140. You may get your wish, then. Men are often the fathers of their children.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #140
189. Amazing, isn't it? It's one of life's mysteries, for sure. n/t
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #42
176. Too bad you wasted all those smilies on a dumb joke
that you didn't even get right.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
45. If Obama said that, Chavez is right -- he's not "exporting terrorism".
Only idiots believe THAT horseshit.

So I'm wondering if that's really what Obama said.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
70. Obama has said that. I was hoping it was just because
there's so much else going on that he was just reading from State Department crib sheets. I guess, I'm still hoping that's the case.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. Or maybe he knows more than you do
There is that possibility.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Yes, and I might be your long lost twin. It's possible.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
48. K&R #4 for, and ignoramus calls CHAVEZ "chavez"!1 n/t
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. that IS an ignorant thing to say about Chavez
obama needs to step away from the DLC corporatist troglodyte shitheads and educate himself.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #49
125. Yes....
he needs to educate himself.

Cause he's such an ignoramus. LOL!


:eyes:
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. well, if he is aware of the reality, why would he say something like that?
if he's NOT ignorant, maybe he's just trying to make brownie points with the PTB. I am disappointed that he insists on appeasing the status quo instead of trying to demonstrate some understanding and even appreciation for the positive changes that Chavez has spearheaded. He might even learn a couple of things from him about running a country truly for the benefit of The People instead of for the stinking corporations.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #126
180. Or maybe
his opinion, and the opinion of people that run this country, is that Chavez's actions are a danger to the freedom of some groups of people in Venezuela, Colombia and Latin America. They can reach a different conclusion through intelligence available to the government than what we have.

Or he's pulling ideas out of his ass.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #180
182. The thing about Chavez is that he says what everyone else is thinking.
Lula must have been pretty displeased with the meeting he had with Obama for Chavez to have made these comments.

The only group in Latin America that Chavez and the host of left leaning leaders endanger are oligarchs and multinational corporations. That's where this "he supports terror" cr@p comes from. In fact, recently a right wing shill published a book that says the very same thing that Obama is saying. Schoen, The Threat Closer to Home, and it's about Chavez It's a work of considerable art, lol! You have to know if Schoen put out a book that some entity with deep pockets is invested in spreading the meme. I'd love to know who cut that check.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #182
208. Well, I in no way
mean to imply that we haven't had our fair share of questionable interactions and dealings when it comes to Latin America, however, I am of the opinion that Chavez is neither saint nor demon. He is a man with faults. He has some wonderful political moments and some questionable deals.

I also don't think Obama is perfect and incapable of making a mistake. I just took umbrage at calling him (Obama) uneducated. I'm sure that he knows more than any of us the background and history of Chavez's popularity and performance in Venezuela.

And not everything is black and/or white.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. That's right, not everything is black or white at all.
I've written as many defenses of Obama as of Chavez. But, there is no indication whatsoever that Obama knows more than several posters to this board about the mixed bag that is Hugo Chavez. None. At the moment, his line about Chavez is identical to the Bush line. Maybe that's simply due to all the other horrible fires he has to put out right now. That's my guess, anyway.

But, he did chose an ultra conservative right wing venue for his first speech to a big Latino group last summer. I'm still hoping that was about the money.
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
54. I'm curious how the freepers are taking this...
heads explode?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #54
141. If you really want to know, read this thread and see if you can pick out the
posts of Freepers who dishonestly pose as DUers. Hint: High post count does not always equate to "Democrat."
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
58. Personal Experience on Chavez
Chavez has sent no less than four planes into Honduran territory that have been caught(note that have been caught so I am sure more) all of them had large amounts of drugs and were clearly marked as Venezuelan...the drugs werent headed for Honduras it was a stopping point and he was sending drugs to the US...he is exporting drugs we know to the US and he is probably doing more. I am surprised the news media in the US hasnt gotten a hold of the activity here in the department of Colon since the DEA has been involved in some of those operations. The way to neutralize him of course is legalizing drugs, but it seems with oil falling through the floor he has to keep his pocket full somehow. Chavez is not a liberal or a Democrat do not fool yourself he is a communist and he is a drug smuggler. He is calling Obama names to try to deflect and minimize the truth about who he is.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Welcome to DU
I hope you're well-prepared for the impending attacks.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. Right! No one should be questioned when their recounting of personal experience
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 11:22 PM by EFerrari
CONTAINS NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

:rofl:

You guys, seriously, I don't know what I'd do without the constant Cavalcade of Comedy!

:rofl:
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. So what's your question?
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 11:37 PM by Zorro
Didn't see one, which seems a rather ignorant thing to omit when attempting to make a point about questioning someone's personal experience.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. So touchy! Maybe you and your friend should cook up some personal experience
to put in that post about personal experience. It would be a start, anyway.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #81
148. Still no questions, I see
For someone with admittedly no personal experience in South America, you'd be advised from challenging those that do.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #148
174. LOL
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #68
115. I, too, have a personal experience to share
A real one. I personally witnessed the Red Devil sodomizing puppies, skinning babies (ALIVE!), farting out the Star Spangled Banner on a snare drum, and plotting the destruction of America. This horrible dictator must be stopped!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. Traitor to the Revolution!
:rofl:
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. Apologist for the Red Devil!
:rofl:
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #59
160. Yep
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #160
165. Good
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 09:43 AM by AlphaCentauri
lol :rofl:
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Yep, uh huh, sure, right.... I get it. He's Manuel Noriega... sure, ok.
:boring:
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. Is that you, Eugene Hasenfus?
do you like trolling silly ass crap?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. OMG! I'M SO GLAD YOU POSTED THIS!
He's a COMMUNIST? OMG!

And a DRUG SMUGGLER? OH, NOES! WHAT WILL THE DEA DO WITH ALL THAT COMPETITION!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
77. that is personal?
like hemorrhoids? The department of Colon doesn't ring a bell.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
90. There are many personal experience in Nicaragua and El Salvador
on how Honduras was training terrorist to kill people in those countries.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #90
161. Ok I live in Honduras
what the crap are you talking about? If you are referring to the 3-16 battalion that was a long time ago and it wasnt Honduras that was training them it was the USA and the CIA that was funding that operation and it wasnt necessarily to kill people in El Salvador and Nicaragua it was to keep them out of Honduran territory and to keep the democracy here from collapse. That in no way justifies what occurred because many Hondurans lost their lives too. However, the Sandinista were clearly plotting to import communism to Honduras and I will always defend a countries right to defend itself regardless. Life isnt the same as it is in the US here and the rules are played differently. It is sort of like keeping South Carolinians out of Georgia...the size of the two countries of Nicaragua and Honduras are comparable in size. However, Honduras is economically getting better and Nicaragua is collapsing right now. Do I think the 3-16 still exists and keeps people in check..yes, I do. They appeared seven years ago and took out quite a few gang members and made the streets safe to walk again. El Salvador and Nicaragua had their own death squads they didnt have the need for a Honduran death squad to keep them in check.
If you want to know real information on the School of the Americas that you refer to I can tell you plenty about it, but remember that the US didnt see first hand what went on down here and to blame Honduras for defending themselves from invasions to implement communism in this country is a little short sighted.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #161
163. "I will always defend a countries right to defend itself regardless"
How honduras was defending it self?

Didn't Honduras was the training camp for many of those death squad, the governments of honduras have allowed to train murderers but they have never done it to defend them selves.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/22/world/around-the-worl...

http://www.ww4report.com/node/1127
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #163
175. They were defending themselves from Sandanistas
It was just one death squad the batallion 3-16. They were trained in tactical forces to defend the borders at all costs and sometimes they got a little heavy handed inside the country too. They were a tool that ended up being used by the government to also carry out political assasinations so it was both positive and negative. However, they didnt train any foreign forces and they were trained by the School of the Americas from the US.
They still exist. However, some of the stuff was hype. There were graves and yes they did kill people. However, some of the graves were people who died in combat and were buried all together because no one came to claim the bodies and they had nowhere to put them. My husband was in the Honduran military at that time. The Sandanistas didnt fight fair so I guess they figured a taste of their own medicine was in order. They snuck into the country planted land mines, killed people, ect. So the Honduran government took action against them. They were wrong for that, but I will bet if they hadnt taken that hardline stance we would be here under communism...now what to do about Zelaya...he wants to try to place a continuous government. The constitution forbids this specifically no president here can serve more than one term. I think it should be two terms, but I am an American...so I stay out of it. There will be a rebellion though if he does try to pass continuism here and I really do not want to be in the middle of it all.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #175
178. During the Contra War, the Contras drove Nicaraguan Miskitus in to Honduras
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 12:12 PM by EFerrari
were they were kept in camps by the Honduran government and where the young men were forced to bear arms. So, no, it wasn't "just" one death squad at all. Honduras collaborated with the United States and their Contra whores.

And the Sandinistas were too busy trying to pave roads and feed people to export anything.

"Just" one death squad and a few convenient mass graves. This thinking is why my mother left El Salvador. Thank you, Mom. :wow:
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #178
186. Mosquitos
arent all Nicaraguan. They live in the Mosquitia department of Honduras. Remember I live here. No one forced them to bear arms they live in a remote region and pretty much do what they want to. If they took up arms they are seperate from the government and do their own thing...most of them are fairly untouched tribes. So to say that they were Nicaraguans isnt very longsighted. They are a native population in Central America including Honduras and Nicaragua. I would not want to tick one off either, because they will take your head off no questions asked
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #186
188. Yes, they aren't all Nicaraguan which is why I made the distinction.
And you are wrong or you've been misled. In Blood on the Border, my friend Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz describes in some detail what she found in her investigation of those camps in her capacity as a UN worker for indigenous autonomy.

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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #188
192. It is different
for someone who sees it through the eyes of the UN and someone who actually experienced the situation. My husband fought in the war..so my knowledge is not book knowledge.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #192
193. Roxanne was in and out of the North Coast throughout those years.
Her knowledge is not "book learning", which I presume you don't value very highly.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #193
194. 
No, it isnt that I dont value it...it just sometimes is not the complete picture. It is different for someone on the outside and someone actually fighting in the war. My husband was in the Honduran military until 1992.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #194
196. Roxanne didn't write a report at a desk in New York.
She went into those camps herself on numerous occasions. One of the things she did was to take photographs as proof of life to the families there -- they were basically hostages. The Honduran government told them the Sandinistas had killed their relative(s) and Roxanne would bring letters and photographs to show them that their people where still alive. It was a pretty heartbreaking situation.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #196
199. My husband never did anything like that.
He never held anyone that was Honduran hostage and he never told anyone that some family member was dead that wasnt dead. He was in the battalion decimoseis in the department of Olancho. There were a lot of cross border kidnappings. In this country, if a family member is killed the family gets revenge and they dont wait for the police to do something about it, because they never do. Even car accidents end up deadly sometimes. The Contras and the Sandinistas invaded the territory and they defended the borders not just Nicaraguan mosquitos crossed over, it was rebels, Sandanistas, and population escaping the war plus they had El Salvador doing the same thing. There is no way to really distinguish between one or the other. A UN worker isnt informed of all military operations or what actually goes on all of the time..military does most of their movements without public imput. Ironically, my husband nearly got killed for helping American soldiers through the jungles here it earned him asylum in the US the hard way. He didnt talk about what happened then for years..but he has started talking about it again, because he fears that the 3-16 is being resurrected for use by Zelaya. He thinks that he is using them to quiet people that oppose his positions and to eliminate those who may stop him from sitting permanently as president. There are always two sides to every story.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #199
200. Right. I'm not talking about cross border kidnappings but camps.
Maybe at some appropriate moment, you could ask your husband about them because they have been thoroughly documented after Roxanne discovered them.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #200
213. You are not going to like his response.
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:00 PM by Summermoondancer
He said it wasnt Hondurans that did that but Sandinistas. He said in 1986 the Sandinistas signed a treaty with the Miskito Indians. He also said that Nicaragua would fight bitterly with the Miskitos over the land there. They granted them autonomy in 86 about the time he joined the military..he said that Nicaragua had bad habits of breaking that autonomy. Many of the Miskitos did live in refugee camps if they were from Nicaragua and that about 1,000 were armed against Sandinistas, but Sandinistas wanted to control their region which was supposed to be autonomous. He said to look up YATAMA and it is the council for the Miskito. They felt very threatened by Nicaragua takin control of them during that time frame. He said that Contras also took refuge in the moutains of Honduras he said they also kidnapped people. He did say that in 1990 they deported several back to Nicaragua when Violeta Chamorro won. He said that violence broke out there for lack of food in 91 and that it was quelled by force. He said that Contras and Yatima fighters united to sieze Puerto Cabezas. He said the situation is very complicated but they werent poor me..
Also, he says that the Contras had Honduran uniforms. The US was supporting Contra behind the scenes. He said that they dropped ration boxes and guns in the middle of the night to fight the Sandinistas.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #213
215. I have no need to like his response. That the Honduran government
had these camps is not up for debate. It's been documented. I know about the conflict and resolution between the Sandinistas and the Miskitu because I translated those meetings.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. Did you realize
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:04 PM by Summermoondancer
that the Contra rebels were wearing Honduran uniforms? When were you here debating it? If it was 91 there were riots, but those riots were over food. I have family that is Miskito Indian and Mayan Indian. My husband is Mayan but his nephews and his sister in law are Miskito. What you document or what you are told is not always the complete truth here...these people are very reserved when they talk because they dont want to be killed for what they tell you. Remember that there are always two sides to every story. It is like Honduras being critisized for eliminating gang members with the death squads...the gang members here are terrorists but the UN classified them as children.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #216
234. Roxanne is Native American and she has no trouble moving
among the communities.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #234
242. Me too
so that is something we have in common. However, the communities distrust outsiders. It took me a very long time to gain peoples trust. They dont talk to the police, authorities on any level...and they certainly dont like to talk to reporters. In countries like this one it gets you killed if you run your mouth too much. I maintain that there was really no reason for Honduran military to do anything with the Miskito Indians except for quelling any rebellion which is their right to do...many of the Miskito were Nicaraguan and guests here. You dont get to launch a rebellion in a host country you respect your refugee status. Nicaraguan rebels did have an interest in forcing anyone they could into their battle. Most of the border fighting went on in the areas along the borders with El Salvador and Nicaragua and there was much infiltration. I dont think it would be appropriate at any level to tell Honduran military to just disarm and give up to Communism and that they couldnt defend their border at all costs. People died, there were serious mental affects on many of the soldiers involved...and in the end the bearer of the responsibility was the US. The US ran EVERYTHING here so if any Miskito were forced into anything the US should be the one to shoulder that responsibility.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. You're so right about that. The man we refer to as "Death Squads" Negroponte
-- one of the Iran Contra criminals -- was working out of Honduras at the time. You bet the United States has to shoulder that responsibility.
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Summermoondancer Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #243
257. Thank you for recognizing that
there are many unanswered questions. What is most frustrating is the man in charge now...Zelaya...you know his father was implicated in the murder of Franciscan priests that were protesting the deforestation of Olancho right? That happened I believe in June of 1975. They dumped the bodies in a well in their front yard. Ironically now the son is president and he just announced that he is going to try to reformthe constitution...also this goon is resurrecting the death squad from what one can see...to use against opponents. Amazingly four politicians have shown up dead this campaign season. He is also deforesting his property with rapid pace and refusing to allow anyone else to remove any lumber even clearing out brush in the same area..we shall see how far he gets with his continuism
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #58
92. I wish Chavez were a Communist. He wouldn't have the opposition press that he has.
And he would have tried and executed every single one of the coup plotters, and he would have put the Caracas elites and the stupid Catholic Church in their place!

The fact he hasn't done any of those things, tells you that Chavez is just a socialist, like Bernie Sanders or many Europeans.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #92
144. Chavez has been nationalizing means of production lately. Many Europeans, though? Dunno. I'm not
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:37 AM by No Elephants
even sure about Sanders, who, AFIK, currently calls himself Indpendent (wiki notwithstanding).
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #58
142. Chavez is not a Democrat? He faked his voter registration, too? Shameless.
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #58
147. Where is Your Documentation for This Nonesense?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 08:02 AM by justinaforjustice
What department of the CIA do you work for, perhaps its well documented drug smuggling operation? Calling Chavez a drug smuggler is patient nonsense, as are the charges that he exports terrorism, subverts elections or eats babies.

I am an American who has lived in Venezuela for two years and observed Chavez and his government closely. Chavez's concerns are improving the lives of the Venezuelan people, which his government is doing -- dramatically. Chavez's Venezuela provides free medical, dental and optical care, education, subsidized food and housing to the people with the profits from their oil resources which used to go to American corporations. Chavez is promulgating the same social services policies which we Americans so desperately need, but do not have, because our corporate profits go only to the top 1% of our population.

From his statements about Chavez, Obama proves that he is ignorant of the true facts about Chavez and his government, which the United States conspired to remove from power in the 2002 coup. Armed U.S. officials were in the Venezuelan military headquarters during the 2002 coup personally advising the oppositionist coup leader, Pedro Carmono, then head of the Venezuelan Chamber of Commerce, as he decreed the abolition of the democratically elected National Assembly, imprisoned its representatives, and kidnapped Chavez to the island of Orchila. Carmono commenced the coup by ordering his U.S. trained sharp shooters to kill innocent Venezuelans in the streets of Caracas. ("Chavez Nestro", Elizalde and Bez, 2006, "El Codigo Chavez" Golinger, 2005, "Bush v. Chavez", Golinger, 2006).

Did you know that two months before the 2002, the United States replaced its then ambassador, Donna Hrinak, with Charles Shapiro, the same man worked for the U.S. advising Pinochet in Chile during the U.S. supported coup against the democratically elected Allende government?

In 2003, Shapiro was quoted by the AP as saying "It is not necessarily a crime to kill a president..." (www.diagonalperiodico.net/spip.php?article182 >). After the 2002 coup was successfully stopped by the thousands of Venezuelans who flooded the streets demanding the return of Chavez to the presidency, documents were found in the possession of Carmona's oppositionists detailing their plan to murder Chavez. Who is it that collaborates with terrorists?

The U.S.'s terrorist history in Latin America is abysmal. It is very sad to see the Obama administration so ignorantly continuing the imperialist policies against Chavez and Venezuela. Unlike Bush, Obama is an intelligent man. One only hopes he will take the time to read some history and learn the facts about Chavez, his government and the appalling role the U.S. has played against them.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #147
191. Thanks for providing background on Charles Shapiro. Had no idea of his connection with Pinochet.
His behavior regarding Chavez, even down to his vile dinner after the coup, in which he regaled his oligarchy guests with an entertainer ventroloquist mocking Hugo Chavez has been contemptible, and unprofessional beyond imagination itself. Filthy, absurd little man.

It's time our government started behaving toward the Latin American countries like a government worthy of their respect, rather than their fear. That way isn't going to be accepted any longer, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize it.

What a shame so much suffering, grief, and pure hell has been poured upon so many people in our names, behind our backs. If our country's policies had been virtuous, had been worthy, they wouldn't have needed to hide what they were doing in Latin America, would they? They have been afraid of public outrage, clearly, which would be expected among decent people.

I always look forward to hearing your INFORMED comments which have real value here. Thank you.
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #191
230. Charles Shapiro May Still Be At State Department.
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 10:08 PM by justinaforjustice
After his failed attempt to depose Chaverz and his government in 2002, Shapiro went on to become a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Estate at our State Department, heading a trade section. He may still be there, working no doubt to skew Obama's attitudes toward Chavez.

I must admit, I would feel much, much better if I could attribute Obama's mis-guided attacks on Chavez to Bush-administration carry-overs like Shapiro. It would be extremely depressing to learn that the attacks come from Obama's new appointees or his own independent views.

Thanks for, Judi Lynn, for your comments and for all the important articles you post here on DU about Latin America. They are extremely valuable as our mainstream media carries so little information about events here, and what it does carry is all too frequently, fact-less, right wing propaganda, not objective reporting.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #230
239. Bush's ambassadors were truly destructive people, all over Latin America.
They caused problems for their leftist host Presidents, made public statements ridiculing and contradicting them, got funding for opposition groups working to destabilize their elected Presidents, met with provocateurs, and clearly, in Venezuela, conspired with coup plotters and supporters, etc., and in general behaved in ways one would NEVER expect to see any ambassador anywhere conduct him/herself.

You saw the evidence, no doubt, of the havoc that followed Bush when he made his sweep through Latin America, trying to badger the Presidents into isolating and shunning Hugo Chavez. He was met with resistance in each location, and the people themselves poured into the streets bearing signs telling him to go home, he wasn't invited, in Spanish, "Fuera, Bush" and "Fora, Bush" in Brazil. Those photos didn't get broadcast by our own corporate media tv news shows, not splashed across our newspapers. They can be seen if people go to google images and do a search for Fuera Bush or Fora Bush. Clearly that story was suppressed. People just didn't hear about it here. Perception molding has been in effect for many years, unfortunately.

Thank you for any and all of your comments here. I always am so glad to see your posts any time you've posted. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever which comes close to your impeccable, honest, very intelligent remarks about what you have witnessed yourself.

Hoping we'll all be able to share some very good news this year, after the nightmare of the previous 8. Hoping this is the year we'll finally turn this horrendous tale of exploitation and horrendous abuse around and create a policy, a new history which doesn't dishonor any of us any longer.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
61. Go fuck yourself, Hugo
And to think I used to support him. Jeez, he's turned into a joke.

Evo Morales, now there is a reformer with no authoritarian tendencies and who just oozes class and comes across as a nice guy, unlike Chavez.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
89. Have you even bothered to read the actual quote in the Venezuelan press?
http://politica.eluniversal.com/2009/03/22/pol_ava_chav...

Or do you still believe as Gospel what the MSM tells you? Haven't you learned a frakking thing in the last 8 years?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. yep, Chavez called him a poor ignoramus. Chavez, what an asshole!!
good to see a few Obama supporters here.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Chavez called him an 'ignorant poor man.' When is Obama going to close SOA?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 12:18 AM by IndianaGreen
Accusing Chavez of being a terrorist puts Obama on the same knowledge level as John Bolton, as far as Latin America is concerned. I hope that Brazil's Lula brought some enlightenment to Obama.

I suppose you are an Obama cultist, as opposed to a rational supporter. We must oppose Obama when he is wrong, correct him when he goes astray, and support him when he is wrong.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. he called Obama a "pobre ignorante". that's an insult. Chavez is a cochino asqueroso
but you won't hear that from Obama's mouth. unlike Chavez, Obama has class.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Obama lacks class when he smears Chavez as a terrorist
Obama knows nothing about Latin America. Taco Bell is not Latin America!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #102
156. Right, I'm sure those FARCistas are just swell people!
:sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #156
177. FARC has nothing to do with this unless you believe Bush's
lap dancer, Uribe.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #177
202. Uribe's being a fascist asshole has no bering on the facts of the matter.
"He's an asshole so he must be wrong or lying" is a fallacy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #202
204. Oh, but it does, absolutely. Uribe invites Chavez to negotiate with FARC.
Chavez negotiates with FARC and pretty successfully, too.

Uribe AND Bush then accuse Chavez of supporting terrorists. It was a set up from the beginning.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #204
209. Anyone who bothered to follow current events saw that a mile away.
It was noteworthy because of its treachery.

Uribe approached Chavez on the hostage negotiations. No question about it. Then Uribe shifted tactics, and started accusing Chavez of being a FARC supporter. Talk about political opportunists! That little back-stabbing bastard is a pro.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #100
146. Or an unfortunate, uninformed person.
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 07:52 AM by No Elephants
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espiral Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #100
232. re:
Yeah, he has class. Bourgeois class...
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #97
124. Perhaps we should apply the same standard to Presidents Obama and Chavez.
"We must oppose Obama when he is wrong, correct him when he goes astray, and support him when he is wrong (right?)." True AND we must oppose Chavez when he is wrong, correct him when he goes astray, and support him when he is right, otherwise we become Chavez' cultists.

I get your point that anyone whose support is unwavering and uncritical runs the risk of being perceived as a cultist.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #97
155. I CAN read some Spanish you pobre ignorante, I know what the phrase means.
This thread oozes with estupido mucho. :banghead:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #94
172. What the hell?
Are you saying that we are required to demonize Chavez to be able to support Obama? Not very good logic circuits, eh?
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selous Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
62. funny!!
Just 2 years ago Chavez was the darling of DU!
Now he is yesterdays trash!!


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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. No, a few people haven't learned NOT to trust the musings of the M$M, specifically Reuters.
:shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. You have to see this. It's an ad that anti-Chavez Venezuelans
in exile (read: they took their money and ran) ran against Obama. When will we EVER learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgCI7fuIRRw
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. while i have nothing against chavez
Edited on Sun Mar-22-09 11:48 PM by iamthebandfanman
i fail to see what that proves?

jbecause a group opposed to him also doesnt like obama...
then that means if you dont like chavez you really dont like obama?
that chavez should be perfect in all leftist eyes?

enlighten me on why opposing chavez means aligning with extreme right wing ideology..
nobody is perfect,
pretty sad when you cant even disagree with a foreign leader on anything without being labled something
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. What? I was pointing out that the extreme right wingers that oppose Chavez
came here and opposed Obama, too.

I'm not sure what you're asking. And, I don't think I've ever labeled you as anything but a DUer.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #82
107. Lets start by listing why we should oppose Chavez?
just because Chavez calls president Obama ignorant in a single issue?.
Isn't it a good opportunity for president Obama to show why he did call Venezuela a country that export terrorism? if president Obama has no proof of it, then he will be just pleasing a group of rich powerful RW'ers who don't even like him as president.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #82
131. No fair! You have to pick the black team or the white team.
DU rules. :sarcasm:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
80. Obama hasn't closed the School of Assassins at Fort Benning, Georgia
a good indication that he knows nothing about Latin America, and surrounding himself with the neoliberals that he has, doesn't give me hope that Obama will ever oppose the Latin American elites.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
87. The actual quote is 'pobre ignorante' which means 'ignorant poor man'
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 12:17 AM by IndianaGreen
Translation: Chavez describes Obama as an ignorant poor man and directs him to read.

Chvez califica a Obama de "pobre ignorante" y lo manda a leer

02:16 PM Caracas.- El presidente Hugo Chvez calific hoy de "pobre ignorante" al mandatario estadounidense, Barack Obama, por unas declaraciones que dio meses atrs acerca de que el lder venezolano exportaba actividades terroristas.

El mandatario, que ha dicho que espera que con Obama puedan ser recompuestas las lastimadas relaciones diplomticas entre las dos naciones, revel que unos comentarios del mandatario estadounidense en enero le hicieron echar para atrs la designacin de su nuevo embajador en Washington.

"Ahora me va a acusar a mi Obama de que yo exporto terrorismo? Al menos uno pudiera decir, pobre ignorante, que estudie, que lea un poco para que aprenda cul es la realidad de lo que est viviendo y la realidad de Amrica Latina y la realidad del mundo", dijo durante su programa dominical de radio y televisin.

"Pero son muy malas seales de un Gobierno. Nosotros seguiremos a la espera pero no estamos desesperados, ni nos va ni nos viene el imperio de los Estados Unidos", agreg.

http://politica.eluniversal.com/2009/03/22/pol_ava_chav...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. Which is pretty much what students and scholars of Latin America have been saying for a long time.
But it sounds so much more sexy if you put it in Hugo Chavez's mouth and make it sound like an insult.

Obama needs to get a clue about the democratizing wave sweeping over Latin America. He's a smart person. He can do that.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. you don't think calling someone an ignoramus is an insult?? Hugo, por que no te calles??
what a prick!!!!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #99
104. Obama called Chavez a terrorist. That's untrue, and an insult to boot!
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 12:23 AM by IndianaGreen
BTW, Obama is now responsible for all the crimes committed by SOA graduates, so when is he going to close the School of Assassins?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. Chavez and the FARC were what Obama was referring to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sEWDlTirWU

speak Spanish????

what a total pendejo!!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. Remember when the FARC came down the mountains to live in peace?
Their leaders were assassinated, so they went back to the mountains. This war has been raging for longer than most people been alive.

You hablo espaol.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #110
114. Does this mean you support Colombia's Uribe?
The man that had his own paramilitary death squads?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. So did the Sandinistas and the Miskitu
during the Contra war. I know because I translated the tape from their meetings -- public meetings -- that our press and Congress claimed were not happening.

What the powers that be are trying to do to Chavez is what they always do. And this time, it didn't work. That a few here still fall for the old bullshit is just statistically predictable.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. He is now responsible. You're absolutely right.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #87
226. I think it's more like "poor, uninformed person"
"Ignorant poor man" carries the meaning that Obama has neither knowledge nor money.

"Poor, uninformed person" conveys the meaning of "pobre" as poor in the sense of "pitiful"

And after having spent much time myself with Venezuelans from the barrio, I learned that they often used "ignorante" in the sense of "uninformed". They had choicer words for "ignorant", but their favorite expression seemed to be "No sabes nada, cojeburra"
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
116. People, Obama STARTED WITH THE INSULTS during his inauguration week!
Chavez didn't start it. He is REACTING to what Obama SAID. And Chavez doesn't take shit like that by sitting back and not responding. He has not survived a Bushwhack coup and assassination attempt, and several more attempts, and a Bushwhack instigated oil professionals' strike, and a Bushwhack-funded recall election, and non-stop demonization by the Bushwhack State Dept. and the corpo/fascist press, by being a weenie. He is not polite. Why should he be?

This is Obama's own goddamned mess to clean up. It was blunder. He let somebody among the Bushwhack holdovers in the State Dept., or possibly a member of his own team, lead him by the nose, to do exactly the wrong thing. It was very stupid--if he intends a new, more just U.S. policy in Latin America. The left is winning in Latin America. Chavez is a very, VERY popular guy in his own country and throughout the region. Needlessly insulting him--and repeating Bushwhack lies about him--is no doubt producing the predictable reaction of most of Latin America thinking that Obama is an "ignorant poor man." His own words made him look like a dunce! Doesn't he realize what has been taking place in Latin America, with country after country electing leftist leaders in accord with Chavez--and even the center-left (Brazil, Chile, Guatemala) in accord with Chavez? Does he think he can "divide and conquer" a continent--South America--which just last September strongly and unanimously repelled a Bushwhack funded and organized bloody coup attempt in Bolivia? He can't! And yet that is what he seems to be trying to do! These unfair, untruthful comments on Chavez set him up horribly for the upcoming Americas conference. It puts him in a very bad position. That's why I think it is the doing of the Bushwhacks--and Obama fell into it, during his inauguration week, because he was/is so preoccupied with a failing economy and on-going wars. But if he wants to get anywhere in Latin America, he needs to purge the Bushwhacks from the State Dept., the ambassadorships and the CIA, NOW--or whoever on his team advised this Univision crap in January.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #116
118. Obama also insulted LGBTs by having Rick Warren give the invocation
Let's not forget that one!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #118
152. LOL, now who's flamebaiting?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #116
119. But Chavez should just turn the other cheek because he's just the president
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 01:00 AM by EFerrari
of our backyard.

:sarcasm:
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
122. Obama deserved harsher words than that.
If he's gonna act like a typical imperialist in his lies about Chavez and Venezuela, then he deserves it. I voted for Obama and would happily do so again, but he needs to be educated to mend his ways on this issue. I know he's compelled to say these things, but he needs to do better.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #122
128. yes, you hit it right ont he head. Obama's LIES about Chavez were totally uncalled for.
he demonstrated complete ignorance in his inauguration week comments, and that is regrettable because there is no reason at all that we should be hostile to Venezuela. Obama CLAIMS to have been a "community organizer," yet denigrates someone whose entire administration is devoted to the cause of The People of his country.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
127. Regardless of Venezuela's policies, Chavez has the maturity
level of a 16 year old. What a buffoon.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #127
201. Chavez is a plain spoken man defending himself from very serious allegations
made by the president of the United States. And if Chavez is saying this outright, you can only imagine what other progressive leaders in Latin America are thinking.

It finally won't matter very much. Latin America is much more independent of the US now than it has ever been. But if Obama doesn't want to lose his Latino constituents, he might rethink the way he talks about other leaders in public.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
132. I've been critical of Obama and I have also commended and/or defended Obama,
depending upon the story we're posting on at the time. I consider that a sane perspective for anyone, including a Democrat.

Despite my own approach, I can totally understand posters who defend him no matter what. He's a brilliant guy who inherited an ungodly mess at the end of January. And he is the POTUS and a Democrat, which, in itself, is an awesome combination, IMO.

However, posters who never have a good word for Obama unless and until someone further left attacks him make me laugh.

I really wish only Democrats would post here.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #132
203. Your post sort of confuses me.
Are you meaning, those posters who seem to look for occasions to bash Obama? If so, it's funny because those are usually the same posters who look for an occasion to bash Chavez. :)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #203
247. Exactly. To them, the only thing worse than Obama is someone to the left of Obama. You don't seem
at all confused to me.

Are you sure you're uncertain? (j/k)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #247
250. I can be very slow.
lol
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
138. I'm not seeing a problem.
Obama accused Chavez of supporting mass murder.

Chavez called Obama dumb.

Look folks, I like Obama, voted for him of course, you know the whole deal. But if he's going to say shit like "you support terrorism" about another nation's leader, well, fuck yeah, I'm going to agree when that nation's leader turns around and goes "Wow, you're a dumb son of a bitch. Go read a book"

Hopefully, Obama will take the advice, pick up a couple decent books (or better yet, actually talk to the nation he just insulted) and educate himself. We all have our ignorant spots, after all.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #138
154. Chaez did not necessarily call him dumb. The translation could easily be uninformed. Technically,
that is what "ignorant" meant in English--simply uninformed, not boorish or dumb.

Those connotations have been added by people who were ignorant of the actually definition of :ignorant." "Ignoramus" is pejorative. "Ignorant" is not.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #154
222. Excellent point you make No Elephants


Seems the nuances of the Spanish language often escape the gringo reporters.

Ignorante: Adj. y s. Que no tiene instruccion o concimiento. (One who does not have instruction or knowledge.

Ignorar: v. No saber. (One who does not know)

Pobre: It can also mean "lacking," for example "a book lacking in content."

You are correct; "pobre ignorante" was not necessarily an insult or pejorative. It was just framed that way by the reporters.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #222
249. Thanks. I try. Reading this thread, the reporters are not the only ones who framed it that way.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
153. Divide and Conquer.
With Reuters to help with the Dividing part, the Conquering is made all the more easier
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
157. And he burned mah Kittehs!
CAN WE INVADE NOW?
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
159. Obama will continue to export terrorism and obstruct progress worldwide
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 08:58 AM by Algorem
and project on Chavez

because he doesn't want to end up like the last Irish-American U.S. President.

He's not that much of an ignoramus.

Even if he does crack "tard jokes" on national television.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #159
171. delusional nonsense
and you're the one using the disgusting phrase, genius;. Fuck that. And no there are no excuses for using it. None.
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #171
240. Naner naner.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
164. Democratically elected by a supermajority multiple times
:popcorn:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
167. Gosh, Chavez must really miss having Bush to knock around
Ignoramus is the last word I would use to describe our current President.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #167
187. Do you remember that speech Obama gave last summer in Miami?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 01:36 PM by EFerrari
He was talking to a very conservative group of anti-Castro Cubans, CANF? He told them exactly what they wanted to hear and everyone who follows democracy in Latin America got a stomach ache.

And the ironic thing is, CANF *has* exported terror to Havana and sponsored it in Miami itself, but Obama was happy to take their campaign contributions. :crazy:
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
173. Right back at ya,Mr. Poopypants.
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960 Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
181. What a conflict for those who worship both Chavez & Obama.
Personally I think Chavez' days are numbered.... down into the double digits.
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
183. We support Israel, what does that make us?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #183
195. OK, every state supports terrorism by that standard.
and seriously, I could give a fig if Chavez supports FARC.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #195
197. It's ironic because Chavez is the one who told them publicly
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 01:47 PM by EFerrari
to put down their arms where Uribe in Colombia only stands to lose if they do.
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Tocque Deville Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
214. I've read the whole thread and not one person has stated the obvious
and not one person has stated the obvious.

FARC is not a terrorist group. Unless you're a fascist supporter.

Even those defending Chavez do so by claiming, accurately, that
Chavez was requested by Uribe to negotiate with FARC. This is an
accurate argument but it concedes too much. The terrorists in Columbia
are agents of the government and/or the corporations who back the
government. FARC are defenders of human rights, common decency, and
the interests of the common people in Columbia against the tyrannical
despotism of the corporatist state.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #214
218. here is the obvious: Colombia is spelled with two "o"s
shows how much you know.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #214
219. There is no doubt that Uribe and his whole apparatus are butchers
but FARC's hands are not clean and I won't defend their behavior. Sorry.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #219
224. agree with you that farc's hands are not clean - but -
then you should include the french maquis and the greek and yugoslav partisans who fought the nazis, the jewish partisans of the warsaw ghetto, the spanish maquis who fought franco's fascists, Mandela's anc and so many other freedom fighters - in the same category.

btw: no reflection on your post. agree with most of yours i've read.
just wanted to point out that - circumstances sometimes make people resort to desperate measures, which we might personally abhor, but can understand the motivation behind.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #224
225. Armed struggle is one thing. FARC lost me the first time I saw
that they had put Bettancourt in what appeared to be a dog collar. There is no reason to do something so brutal.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #225
231. did not know that. thanks for the information. (n/t)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #231
233. If you're interested in FARC, you might want to read James Petras.
He's outstanding in general and in particular, very knowledgeable about FARC. I think if you google his name, his site comes right up.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #214
221. good post. sadly, even some liberals, pseudo or not, shut down on logic with the chavez button.
fuming over rhetoric, few look at actions & results. let's list some.

obama:
- mass bail out of wall street & bank corps. but middle & low income workers & home-owners - not so much.
- sends out mass-murdering scum* kissinger, on diplomatic missions.
- appoints corporate hack & kissinger associate, geithner, to one of the most important cabinet posts.
- keeps bush flacks on in important cabinet posts; viz.: secdef gates.
- spends more effort trying to cajole repukes into his bipartisan coalition, than listening & providing a say, to true progressives like kucinich.
- allows a free hand to the cia & pentagon, in continuing the status quo. cases in point: as many posters pointed out - school of the americas; drone attacks in pakistan; continuing presence of troops in iraq.
- vote in support of govt. eavesdropping.
- but, he's a smart, intelligent, ivy-league post-grad, and - i agree - a nice, decent guy, who is sympathetic to those not at the top of the money pyramid, and did & does try to help and look out for them.

chavez:
- nationalization of resources to benefit poor & indigenous venezuelans.
- free elections, vetted by the european union, jimmy carter, et al.
- oil assistance to poor countries, and the poor in rich countries.
- trying & succeeding in increasing literacy in venezuela.
- trying & succeeding in decreasing the poverty rate in venezuela.
- tried to bring farc to the negotiation table; negotiated on hostages.
- allowed the fascists who tried to shut his govt. down in the coup attempt to continue their miserable existence, ad our nauseam.
- helped to propagate a renewed nationalism in the south american continent, to benefit the people of the land; instead of a bunch of rich oligarchs, and the multi-national corps. they ride on.
- but, he's a blunt, plain-spoken, rough-talking, drop-out from grad school, who doesn't have the smooth facade of your average statesman; and will insult other world leaders at the drop of a hat, when they indulge in b-s.

yet, who's the more progressive here?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #214
241. oh bullshit. Whether FARC is a terrorist group can be debated
but an organization of such light and goodness as you worshipfully describe, doesn't kidnap civilians, murder civilians or engage in the cocaine trade. And Chavez disagrees with you about FARC being this ooh so wonderful organization, dear.

On January 13, 2008, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez stated his dissaproval with the FARC strategy of armed struggle and kidnapping saying "I don't agree with kidnapping and I don't agree with armed struggle" <3>. President Hugo Chavez has repeatedly stated his dissaproval of the practice of kidnapping stating on April 14 that "If I were a guerrilla, I wouldn't have the need to hold a woman, a man who aren't soldiers...Free the civilians who don't have anything to do with the war. I don't agree with that."<4>. On March 7 at the Cumbre de Rio, Chavez stated again that the FARC should lay down their arms "Look at what has has happened and is happening in Latin America, reflect on this (Farc), we are done with war... enough with all this death"<5>. On June 8 Chavez repeated his call for a political solution and an end to the war, "The guerrilla war is history...At this moment in Latin America, an armed guerrilla movement is out of place". <6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces...

common decency. What an absurd claim.
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jzodda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #214
246. FARC is awesome
They sell high quality cocaine in large quantities. They are the defenders of all things decent about the growing and manufacture and sale/export of Cocaine. They have killed for it, kidnapped for it and raped for it, all in defense of NARCO dollars. They do it as well as any of the cartels that they have been in bed with for the past 15 years.

Viva FARC!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #246
251. And that puts them head and shoulders above the Colombian government
Bush's lap dancers.
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jzodda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #251
258. That's true it's much harder to get good Coke from the gov
n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #258
259. Wrong. Just about every part of the government has been implicated
in drug dealing, money laundering or the murder of union activists. But, thanks for playing.
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jzodda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #259
260. You know you keep telling me about the government there
Edited on Wed Mar-25-09 08:53 AM by jzodda
I responded to this thread because I read some nonsense about how FARC was some group of freedom fighters, which they haven't been for probably 2 decades. I didn't praise the gov there nor said a word about them beyond a sarcastic joke about buying coke from them. I don't see the need to criticize both sides each time I want to talk about just one of them. I can never understand the need of people to do that. If somebody posts nonsense about the gov then I would be happy to criticize that too. Trying to find something pure about the political situation in that country is an exercise in futility.




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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #260
261. Agreed. Poor Colombia is between the devil and the deep blue sea. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
220. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
223. Thanks for an answer to my question. Head still firmly in ass.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
229. Sad to see this --- who provokes first? Rather, we should be trying to amend our ways
in Latin America!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
252. how endearing nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #252
253. Rght. Being accused of supporting terror should only be met with
Margaritas and sarapes.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #253
255. Chavez is little more than a gobfly
and should learn some diplomatic skills.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #255
256. Another expert weighs in.
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