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whyzayker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:34 AM
Original message
Nader is running
Just announced.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. He may run
but that doesn't mean that anyone will vote for him. I did last time, but not this time.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
97. Here's the site that exposes Phony Ralph
http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Ralph already made my nephew Jonny a quadraplegic for life. I'll be dammned if he does anything to my other nephew in Iraq!
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Running from What?
Idiot
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Self absorbed ass
No one will support him.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Pisses me off..
If Bush gets another term, this country DESERVES him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sweettater Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. My consensus on this is
if the powers to be (PNAC) want * in for another 4 years then it will happen. WE have no say so, like it or not. Sad but true.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. So the checks from the RNC have arrived
enjoy the $$$ Ralph.
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dsewell Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. What If They Gave a Nader and Nobody Came?
Sounds like a strategy to me.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Good point!
In 2000, did people vote green or Nader? <trying to find some optimism in all of this>
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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. RUN NADER RUN
for President of Iraq :evilgrin:
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
100. Now there's a good idea.
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
106. I'd go for that one! ha n/t
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. Now he's really done it
He is over. Blew his chance to be a hero.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

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LuLu550 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. He won't have the support
He'll just pick up those people who are already saying "there is no way I can vote for Kerry or Edwards." The ABB people far outnumber them, IMHO.
It's so sad Ralph couldn't bring himself to end his career on a better note than this. This just shows him as an egotistical, small minded person who puts the needs of this country behind his need for attention.
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bushalert Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. Who gives a s*it
He's a nobody, good luck!
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kysrsoze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
89. Yeah, I'd love to see that @ss get 0.5% of the vote this time
What a jerk.
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RamblingRose Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. My mom lives in Florida and voted for the SOB last time. She won't be
so stupid again, especially after the stolen selection. She knows we have got to get shrub out of office! Can only hope others will see the light!
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LEW Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. Central Time-MTP Nadar announces as candidate
Damn, damn, damn watch this on MTP. This man is delusional!!!!
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whyzayker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's like he hasn't paid attention..
..to the last few years! I can't believe he believes what he's saying.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. What is he saying?
The same crap he spewed in 2000?
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:45 AM
Original message
How much money will the GOP pump into Nader??
.
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
92. Nader's WH Bid Website up and running
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 12:16 PM by Angel_O_Peace
How can it be discovered who the major $$$ contributors are?

The world is getting crazier by the day...I have a gut feeling that between Ralph, Rove and Diebold, the 2004 election will go down in history as worse than what happened in 2000...and I truly hope not. Bush has got to go FOREVER!

http://www.votenader.org /

Snip from the homepage:

A thank you note from the Campaign Manager

On behalf of the Nader 2004 Presidential Exploratory Committee, I want to thank everyone who took the time to provide inputs to our inquiries both pro and con. We appreciated the feedback especially the thoughtful discussions of issues and concerns for the future of our country. We will try to respond to the correspondence as best as we can, but we also tried to answer some of the general questions and concerns in our FAQ.

It is a big country out there and we heard from a lot of people! Now that Ralph has decided to run, we are no longer taking a referendum on the question of whether he should. If you encouraged him, we hope you will now help by getting him on the ballot, contributing to the campaign and volunteering at the local level. If you discouraged him and disagree with his decision, dont support or vote for him. But please keep an open mind and have the courtesy to recognize that others would like to have the opportunity for more choices and voices in the electoral process to move this country forward. And that is exactly what this campaign will be all about. Stay tuned.

Thank you.
Theresa Amato

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:45 AM
Original message
So is Nader just a distraction
or will he actually stimulate more public debate?

It seems he hates everybody, conservatives and liberals, so he's a bit of a wild card.

I doubt he will have any impact on the outcome of the November election. Very few people will throw their vote away this time. But if the neocons have some trick up their sleeve to take over the world between now and then, it won't matter anyway. Fortunately, I do think the gig is up for the neocons too. People are waking up.



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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm sure the Repukes want Nader to run
But I really don't think that will be enough. They need more than his "help" to save Chimpy.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
47. It just may work against Bush.... There are plenty of really ticked off
Republicans who wouldn't vote for Kerry for any reason, but might, just might, vote for Nader as a protest vote.

I, for one, would really enjoy seeing the Bush machine get bitten on the posterior by its own (snake) dog... :evilgrin:
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. is this the October Surprise?
probably not ... I'm sure the BFEE has other things up their sleeve ...



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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
18. Link?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. kick
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
58. Hi Saigon! I just noticed your sig line....
It could have "Iraq" in place of the word "Vietnam", and be equally as correct. No?

:hi:

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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. here
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 09:55 AM by Kellanved
Nader to run for president
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Ralph Nader, whose third-party White House bid in 2000 was blamed by some Democrats for helping elect President George W. Bush, says he will try again this year, running as an independent.

Ignoring the pleas of Democrats who have asked him to stay out of the race, the veteran consumer advocate said on Sunday he was running out of a strong desire to evict Bush from the White House.

"I've decided to run as an independent candidate for president," he said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Nader's Green Party bid picked up nearly 2.9 million votes in 2000 and was blamed for siphoning support from Democrat Al Gore -- particularly in Florida, where Nader won 97,488 votes and Gore's loss by a bitterly contested 537 votes cost him the presidency.

...
reuters UK article

Edit: fixed link
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. "Strong desire to evict Bush" Like *WE* don't?
God-damn egomaniacal sum-bitch.
Yeah, we'll evict Bush...in 2000

It's over. Here comes the Murkan Taliban, courtesy of the GOP.
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
54. "Running out of a strong desire to evict Bush"
Wow, just imagine if we all did the same. Millions of people with a srong desire to evict *jr. writing their own names in on the ballot.

Yeah, that's the answer, Ralph. :eyes:
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. LOL!
Same net effect. Good one. :thumbsup:
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. Ralph is making me want to ralph...
I used to look up to this guy... I used to admire him....
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
20. The man is an egomaniac...
... even the work that put him on the map, "Unsafe at any Speed", has been thoroughly discredited. Not only that, the VW Beetle had the problems he attributed to the Corvair in a much greater degree, but you never saw him go after the bug, that would have pissed off his "base".

You have to wonder why a moron like him just keeps running. He knows he'll be lucky to get 1% of the vote. He knows he'll get NO media attention for his message. I attribute it to some form of insanity or just plain hubris.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. Won't be as big a deal this time
He'll still garner some votes, but not enough to swing a state. He's going independent this time, rather than Green.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I agree
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
24. Did anyone have any doubts? Obviously, nader is a bush republican.....
a conservative of some sort who wishes all the worst for the country.
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
75. I agree... I hate to agree, but I do...
I voted for him TWICE in 96 and 00 and have been repenting ever since... this is making me sick.
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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
26. This is NOT the time for idealistic thinking..
Please use your brain: A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. Plain and simple.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. That's not what the latest polls say..
Kerry can *easily* beat the chimp one on one.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. I thought the Pukes thought Dean was their ideal candidate
to defeat. Surprise--the Dems did it to him first! I don't think the GOP like Kerry as well (to defeat) they know the non-veteran attack they could have used on Dean is out the window, and Kerry has important friends-maybe even more important than the Shrub's little criminal clique.

Don't get me wrong--I think Dean is a great American, a fantastic candidate and got treated shamefully by "our" fourth estate. Nevertheless I know the Pukes would have preferred to face Dean if they had a choice (next to Sharpton.) I don't think they are right---but that is what they thought.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
114. It might had been the Democrats that did it to him first...
but based on reports that I have read Dean probably had a hand in his own defeat unfortunately.

It takes more than a candidate to win an election.
It takes a campaign staffed with the right people and a candidate making the right decisions.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
46. Dean had his chance. The PEOPLE decided otherwise - resoundingly!
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 10:43 AM by TankLV
The PEOPLE were very clear and strong in their desire to kick bush out. Kerry may have some baggage, but Dean had become an embarrassment. The DNC and others may have supported Kerry or someone else, but, sorry to burst your delusional bubble, the DNC did not vote in the primaries. The PEOPLE did - AND NOT ONCE DID THEY EVER GIVE DEAN A WIN - not even 3rd or 4th in most places.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. The leaders of our party did not win the primaries for Kerry....
We, the people did that.

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Thistle42 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
57. I know you feel betrayed by what happened to Dean...
but listen to an "old lady" here. I am still a "newbie" or I would have started a thread of my own. Let me just say that I have been disallusioned like you way back in 1968; a time I would like to forget. I went to Vietnam via the Army Nurse Corps Program...the Army paid for your college education and you paid back the time when you graduated. Thus when the Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred, I was on a boat to the South China Sea late in 1965 and I served a year in Vietnam as a 23 year old girl as naive as they come. I took care of the wounded and the dying and I still carry the memories that are seared in my heart.

When I came back I felt like a piece of Jello...my country was in chaos and it only got worse each day. I worked for peace candidates and they were all assassinated or smeared by the left and the right.

That brings me up to 1972 and the Nixon/McGovern campaign...anyone read Frank Rich's column in the NYTimes today? My computer will not behave so that I can bring it up...but it is about Vietnam...all over again. Ron Kovic, like Max Cleland was spit on and called a traitor for speaking out against a war he once fought by the hawks. Things haven't changed much now, have they? Vietnam still is reverberating and has meaning.

Now, for my thoughts on Kerry and why I support him now after giving money to Dean, Kerry and Clark. I was angry with every Senator that voted for the Iraq war...EVERY ONE! But, I know that our country is such great peril today that we have to beat Bush with the best weapon we can. If it is a Kerry/Edwards team, then I am for it...or Kerry/Clark or Kerry/Dean. I admire Dennis Kucinich, but I thought from the first that he would not make it on the national stage against Bush. We cannot afford to be purists...idealists yes, but we must fight them. Corporations and the Miltary Industrial Complex are to be fought, but we can't win with Ralph or Howard, or Dennis.

I am fogiving Kerry for his Iraq war vote because my fears are so great for the future of our country. I may be too late as it is.

A Vietnam Nurse
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. nice and important post, Thistle42 (Vietnam Nurse)
Welcome! :toast:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
77. Welcome!
Your input was marvelous. That's why I come to Democratic Underground ... to read such marvelous opinions. You must feel like I do ... I fought some battles in the 70's, such as fighting for women's rights ... and now I'm having to fight them again ... unbelievable.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #57
83. Great Post
and welcome :toast: :hi:

I have come to agree with a major point you raised. We cannot afford to be purists in this election. Although many of us here agree with Dennis on so many issues, the country is still suffering the hangover of right-wing, and fundamentalist indoctrination. Change will have to come in increments. I'm thinking in terms of evolution as opposed to revolution.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
116. One of those ways is electing any Democrat...
that will have a good shot of replacing retiring SC Justices and possibly naming the Chief Justice.
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Thistle42 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #83
142. Hello and THANKS TO YOU TOO!
I really enjoy the DU and it gives me hope. As Studs Terkel says, and he says it best..."Hope Dies Last."

I wrote so quickly that I didn't even proof read, sorry to say. I was in a hurry and very emotional. Great combination!

At least one thing I noted about Nader's speech...except for saying that he thought Gore would have ordered troops into Iraq, he never mentioned whether he would have done it pre-emptively, nor did he mention the dead and wounded that occur almost on a daily basis.

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
115. It also takes more than the President to pave the way for America
WE must also elect members of Congress that will guide the president down the right path. WE must after elections are over continue to let our elected officials know what we think and want.

I don't expect a candidate that I support or vote for will be 100% for the issues that I care about. I am only one of many. I do expect that they will be reasonable and will seriously listen to my views. The constitution is suppose to be there to prevent the masses from destroying those that don't agree with them. A GOP president is not likely to care about the constitution unless it suits their goals.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
125. Great Post!!!
And Welcome to DU :hi: :thumbsup:
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
129. Dear Thistle42
Wise words, and thanks for the post.

Your concern about idealism v. pragmatism is the right one. With nearly half the nation declaring itself "born again" as well as contented with Bush after all his miserable lies and failures, we face a tremendous struggle to regain power. Our task is nothing less than wresting control from the grip of the ignorant and violent. Before they bring us all down with them.

Still, on this matter of idealism, there's a problem, as I'm sure you've observed over the years: there isn't much of it going around, is there? Idealism is probably never in great supply. But its absence isn't accidental. Idealism is ground out of people, and that grinding can be influenced and regulated.

Probably no force in America now is more responsible for curtailing idealism than those politicians who know better, yet go along with policies like Iraq, the Patriot Act, and tax cuts for the rich. And it's nothing new. Look back to the 90s: the vicious gutting of welfare didn't come from the Republicans. Look back to the 80s: the majorities voting for Reagan's policies weren't Republican, either.

When you have a moment, check out this piece by the socialist writer Alan Maass. It puts some things, like Dean's destruction, and the mantra of "electability," in useful context. I suspect given your politics and background you'll like other writing on the Counterpunch web site, too:

http://counterpunch.com/maass02032004.html
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Thistle42 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #129
143. Ah, Voltaire, you wise one! I need to
get back with an answer to you, but must again give up the computer to my husband who is receiving medical scans as I type. I will try to answer you later tonight.

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Thistle42 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #129
145. I read the Maas article you linked...
and I concur with his points. It does more than upset me this "electibility" notion. I want to say that I feel very cynical indeed about our political leaders. We all started out feeling like we could change things especially after the grueling '60's. Oh, how I would like to tell you that my idealism stayed with me, but I cannot. Clinton/Gore were no more my cup of tea than yours. I was born and raised in Minnesota and proud of my progressive upbringing.

What to do now? I swear I am schizoid about this...one day I think we have a chance...the next day I am in a dysfunctional funk about what is going to happen here. I read far too much to be comfortable. I am surrounded as most of us on the DU by people who think the US is just FINE and Bush IS JUST FINE to save us from the TERRORISTS. Oh, dear God! The more I read, the more I despair. Have you read the "Sorrow of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson? Kevin Phillip s's books "Wealth and Democracy" and "The Bush Dynasty"?

To handle the fear and despair...I have joined WellstoneAction...and the local Civil Dialog group near me. The pragmatism of voting for John Kerry if he gets the nomination...do we HAVE A CHOICE? I am not entirely sure we have any other option. I wish Studs Terkel were here to give me an injection of hope...

Good to see you again, Voltaire...loved you on Abuzz.



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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
60. I know - Kerry's only leading Bush by 12%. Unelectable.
Or not.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
113. Party picked him... that is what Limbaugh and GOP want you to think
They were saying that about Wesley Clark and he is out. Now that Dean is out and Kerry is the front runner they are trying to destroy Kerry.

I don't care who gets the nomination... the mindset that all of us no matter who we supported should be ANYBODY BUT BUSH!!!!

Any of the 9 that are/were Democratic candidates are better than any Republican especially gw*. UNITED WE STAND.. DIVIDED WE FALL
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
124. When will be the time for some ideals in the party?
Your tired warning is the one that was given last election. And the election before that. And before that. Yawn.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
28. Darth Nader ....The Nightmare Continues.
.
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LuLu550 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. I never heard that one before!
God, it is good! LOL!
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. Nader, Unsafe at any Speed...
says it all. It doesn't change my vote and it won't change my repub family's vote, now that they have seen the true republican party maniacs. Good Bye Bush and Criminals!
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
108. Off-topic: I commiserate that you have Repub family.
Me too. :( It gets hard sometimes.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. Express your outrage
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. NO. No. No....Don't give him the time or ear....
Ignore the bastard.
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rhino91063 Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
34. I wonder
how much the republicans are paying Nader to run? I wish this country still had good independent invetigative journalists.
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buckeye1 Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
36. Stumbling.
What a loser. A fraud. He steals DK's thunder.
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undergroundrailroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
37. Associated Press Link:
Nader Announces He'll Run for Presidency

By SAM HANANEL
The Associated Press
Sunday, February 22, 2004; 9:50 AM

WASHINGTON - Consumer advocate Ralph Nader announced Sunday he will run again for the presidency, declaring that Washington has become "corporate occupied territory" and arguing there is too little difference between the Democratic and Republican parties.

Nader, who will turn 70 this week, said he contemplated retirement but decided against that. "I've decided to run as an independent candidate for president," he announced on NBC's "Meet The Press."

"This country has more problems and injustices than it deserves," Nader said, bemoaning a "democracy gap." He said he needed to get into the race to "challenge this two-party duopoly."

"There's too much power and wealth in too few hands," he said . "They have taken over Washington."

"Washington is now corporate occupied territory," Nader said. "There is now a for-sale sign on most agencies and departments. ... Money is flowing in like never before. It means that corporations are saying no to the necessities of the American people. ... Basically, it's question of both parties flunking."


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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
88. No difference between the parties? Then why vote in the middle of night?
If both parties are the same, why all the extraordinary means to keep Dems in Congress from having time to read through bills before votes?

Why hold votes in middle of the night?

Why would the malAdministration have to lie to get their war resolution through Congress?

Why all the secrecy and hacking?

Why the push for paperless voting that cannot be verified?

Why all the threats?

Why all the thug attacks?

Why the anthrax in Dem offices and not Repub offices too?

Why was Plame outed?

Why is Wellstone dead?

Why would the pResident have to speak only to hand picked crowds?

Why would Chicken Hawk Dick have to hide in his undisclosed location and not let anyone in the other branches of government know what titians of industry he has working with him to write policy?

Perhaps there just might be a few differences in the parties?

Ralph, if you wanna help, run for school board at your local level. There is enough damage being done there and it is the jumping off point for many right wingers getting into politics. Stop them at their source and help kids get some real education. It would be a great help in the long run.

If you wanna help, turn your attention to outing the media's uneven treatment of events because of their corporate interests!

If you wanna help, grow the ***k up.
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smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
150. Here's Why
If both parties are the same, why...?

"My cousin Francis (I of France) and I are in complete agreement -- he wants Vienna, and so do I."
--Emperor Charles V

The two halves of the Republicrat Party are in competition for the same pot of megacorp boodle. Of course they fight each other tooth and nail. That doesn't mean that there is any meaningful political difference between them.

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Isere Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
38. Excuse me, please
I have to go set my hair on fire.

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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
39. way to go rove...
the ultimate repulikan dirty trick...we re on to you boy..won t work again!!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. my republican husband
is even disgusted by this. nadar does nothing, he doesnt spend money campaign do a single thing as if he is running, just sucks off votes

my husband doesnt want bush again either and he is a midland texan, lol. i think he doesnt want me in htis house with george as president for another 4 years, lol.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. Welcome to DU seabeyond
:hi:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. ty
:toast:

living in panhandle of texas way to many years, ah the last week of reading these posts have been heaven sent you know,
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
41. Nader makes me want to RALPH!!!
:puke:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
42. There is a special place in Hell for this egotistical, arrogant prick.
It's not allowed to wish harm to anyone on this board, so I won't - but only because of that rule.

My disgust and hate for this man is second only to bunkerboy, who is first in that regard.

Now, naderites, tell us again that there's no difference between the democratic party and the fascist, nazi repukes. Go ahead, tell us.

And tell us that nader DIDN'T cost us the last time. Go ahead.

Idiots.
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GreenNADER Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. sorry but ...........
sorry but everyone needs to face the facts.

We have alot of problems, the corporations have taken over washington.

Our partys leadership has sold us out with Kerry.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
62. Interesting screen name
but you do realize Nader is running as an independent, not a green. BTW, here's a heads up: Once the primary is over, you won't be allowed to campaign for Nader here.
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
63. How did the Greens sell us out with Kerry?
There seems to be a disconnect between your username and your statements...
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
65. Yep - you also need to face the facts.
We do have a lot of problems. Not a single candidate is perfect. Our party's leadership did not sell us out - the PEOPLE voted for him! Get that thru your thick skull. Practically ANYBODY is better than bunkerboy - ANYBODY! Everyone is free to vote their conscience, but wasting a protest vote on nader is just that - he won't win ANYTHING and will do harm to the dem candidate and help the repuke effort. You can't deny that.

Kerry has a LOT going for him - INFINITELY more!
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #48
86. Hogshit.
nt
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
98. Sure
"And tell us that Nader DIDN'T cost us the last time. Go ahead."

250,000 DEMOCRATS voted for Bush in FLA. 2000.
1.1 MILLION gays did.
Now explain why they aren't more of a problem than Nader was?
Just once it would be nice to see an informed DEMOCRAT. Instead of the ignorant arrogance that passes for knowledge.
You may also want to keep Greens, Libertarians, Natural Law, and that marijuana party from running as well.
I'm sure they will also " steal" votes from the Democrats.
You may also have to question why Democrats would vote for anyone else.
Could it be their party is so weak they need to fear any rational alternative to the one party corporate system we have now?
Really, if you had a strong party ( as Republicans seem to have) then any third party candidacy would NOT challenge you.
But you don't.
Why is that?
Have you moved too far to the right to call yourselves liberal?
Terry M claimed that Kerry doesn't support Gay marriage. Clinton signed Defense of marriage.
How many other segments of the population do you wish to alienate?
NAFTA cost the US jobs. The jobs of Democratic voters.
Who signed NAFTA into law?
What about media Deregulation and the problems we face today?
Who was responsible for that?
Until the Democrats find their heart, ethics, and morals, many of are glad to vote for a third party with integrity.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. I am obviously talking past you.
You didn't comprehend a single word I said.

1) We're speeaking about that idiot "nader".

2) The fact that he got 100,000 votes and bunkerboy claimed a win of just about 500 votes DOES make the big difference.

3) 1.1 million gays voted - I'll bet they voted for the democratic ticket about 99.999999999%.

4) THE PEOPLE voted for Kerry resoundingly. Dean got zip. Nada. He's toast. Guess the PEOPLE don't know who they want. Guess the PEOPLE are wrong then?

4) I'm gay - he hasn't alienated me - we've FAR bigger fish to fry - might as well not vote for Kerry because of the way he combs his hair - and get 4 more years of bunkerboy. Sure I didn't like many of his past pronouncements - the primaries are the time to vote my "conscience". But Kerry looks like the PEOPLE's choice. So I will support ANYBODY BUT bunkerboy who has a shot at actually kicking him out of OUR White House.

But go ahead, put your head back in your butt/in the sand and ignor the obvious.

Maybe you would feel comfortable in some OTHER website?

Oh, and about me being so conservative. That's rich.

Do a littel search under my name to see how "conservative" I am.

RIIIIIIIGHT.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
128. "Hatred"? "Wishing harm" to Nader? Ugh.
Hatred? Why do you hate Nader? Because he's for a living wage? Against corporate power run amok? For fair trade? Against the wealthy hoarding their piles to the detriment of society? Or simply because your candidate didn't win last time?

Of course Nader cost Gore the election. In our system, anyone can "cost" another an election. That's electoral democracy. It works that way.

Vehemence is your right, of course. But when you start talking about "wish(ing) harm," that's scary and raises a fundamental question. If you wish harm to people who hold political views different to yours, then what is the basis of your claim to being interested in democracy?
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ms_splash Donating Member (823 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. That's just sad
You've got to feel sorry for the guy (almost). He has become a complete farce. Any sane person in his shoes would have bowed out gracefully. Instead, his ego has gotten the best of him, yet again.

At 70, you'd think he would rather be relaxing by the poolside.
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Damn shame
I used to be a monster Ralph Nader fan. I was the groupie in the front row at his speeches. Cheered him at rallies against nuclear power. Had his photo on my dorm-room bulletin board.

He's done so much good for consumer's rights ... has been a champion for so many progressive issues.

And now he does this. After all the good he's done, his name will now be synonymous with TRAITOR. TRAITOR to the cause.

I have so few people I can believe in anymore. When my idol fell in 2000, it truly hurt my heart. But the scars have healed. Ralph can't hurt me anymore. Now, he can only hurt OUR COUNTRY by helping leave us with four more years of George Bush. Which will RUIN this country.

Ralph, your legacy could have been marvelous. Now, it's just ca-ca.
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
53. So What
When I heard about Nader's appearance and his announcement in re running for president, I was furious. Afterall, I live in Florida, "been there, done that" scenario.

However, now that it is official, that he will run, I beleive we should use him rather than give his candidacy power. The more power we give him and his candidacy, the less energy we have for Bush and Rove

If I were John Kerry or Edwards, I would say "welcome Ralph" and good luck. Besides, I am not worried, at least at this point, that the election will be that close where Nader will make a difference, If after the last three years, if the voting public supports the policies of Bush, they deserve what they get.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
55. moran
as a "car guy" i was willing to look past his silly book about the corvair, and i voted for him in 2000. NOT THIS TIME!

at the same time, i do feel bad that now i am reduced to the "anybody vut the other guy" paritsan politics. just because of bush*.

i guess he isn't happy to let his political career fizzle, he wants it to go down completely in flames!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
56. OMG
Here we go again.

:eyes:
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bleu Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
61. we must stop nadar

We can not risk another 4 years of bush

http://www.ralphdontrun.net/
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
64. Wait a minute...
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 10:52 AM by Baclava
Nader told NBC's "Meet the Press" on that he will run for President as an indepndent candidate?

If he's not running as a Green, and can't get on the state ballot's as an independent, what difference does it make if he's "running?"
so - I wonder who the Green Party will run?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
117. It might depend on which states his name is on the ballot
Nader wouldn't necessarily have to make it on the ballots of all 50 states.

Let's say he gets on the ballot of Florida, California, New Mexico, Wisconsin and a few others. What happens then? California may not matter. But Florida, New Mexico and Wisconsin might be close enough that Nader could put gw* in as the winner instead of the Democratic candidate.
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treefrogjohn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
67. Yawn.
I think we are safe this time in just ignoring him.
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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
68. Maybe he will siphon off some of the ad money from Bush and
some of the television coverage that would have gone to Bush.
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #68
82. yeah... siphon it off by the rethugs GIVING him some ad money...
Like they did in Wisconsin for him.

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TheWhitneyBrown Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
69. Nader's Strategy - Trotskyite
Besides being an self absorbed, bitter, and hateful prick, Nader has another rationalization for running. He hopes that another 4 years of Bush will so outrage everyone that there is a giant progressive backlash that magically turns the entire country to the left.
That's how he thinks, as he said in 2k.
I guess he assumes the damage Bush has done by then can then all be magically undone. What an idiot. I assume he envisions himself at the head of this giant progressive backlash. Moron
I think the real damage he can do is not the votes he'll suck up, which should be tiny and not Dem votes anyway.
The real damage is that a lot of people may actually buy his constant theme that there is no difference between the parties and so it doesn't matter who you vote for, thereby encouraging the cynicism that leads to voter apathy.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. 97,000
votes he got in florida in 2000
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
71. Nader is a Spoiler
I know he said he hates that characterization, but there is truth to it.

Nader decries the 2 party system, both of which are beholden to corporate interests. He said words to the effect of no other democracy would attack a candidate this way. Yet, he has also acknowledged the problem of the electoral system.

HELLO!!!!

It is the winner take all electoral college that makes any third party candidates spoilers in one way or another. What has Ralph been doing these past 4 years to change the electoral system, to push for greater campaign finance reform? What has he done to try and improve this country other than to go around babbling, attacking our current system?

Does he really think he can become POTUS? Does he not think that with his "celebrity" he could raise awareness of these important issues in other ways?
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
72. 2-time Nader voter, mad as hell with him now... despicable...
I will always respect him and love him... but he has gone off his nut, poor guy... Did he not, like the rest of us, learn some bitter realities of the US electoral system in 2000? Winner takes all, if you don't collaborate in November you will NEVER win.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
74. Wow! over 70 posts on this thread.....
...and not ONE mentions a single issue.
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #74
78. um... yes they do...
how about the fact that this is a winner take all system, not a parliamentary democracy. In our system, for better or worse, you need to form your coalitions BEFORE the end of the primary, otherwise you are dividing one half of the political "spectrum" and the more unified, organized other half of the spectrum will win.

If you think of it as a bell curve, Nader is actually pushing the "center" further to the right, if by taking votes from the left of the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party will have to push further to the right to make up for those lost votes.

The Democratic Party is not going to shift leftward to pick up the 2-3 per cent on the tail end of the left spectrum if it means that for every 2 per cent they gain on the left means 10-15 per cent they lose from the center.




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ahimsa Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #78
90. Let it play out
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 12:02 PM by ahimsa
This is sort of how a democracy is supposed to work. I don't think we can even guess the net results of this yet.

On the negative side:
  • if Nader sticks around thru the election (which I think is unlikely), he might take votes from the Democrat*.
  • He might think up some novel attack on the Democrat that Rove didn't think of (also unlikely)

On the positive side:
  • He might just take votes from Bush (I think it's more likely than his taking votes from the Democrat - if the general assumption is that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush)
  • His campaign will siphon of some percent of the Republican tidal wave of campaign funds (and every million not aimed at the Democrats will help)

I predict that overall his campaign, however short-lived it turns out to be, will help the progressive cause.

*edited to say "the Democrat" instead of "Gore"! :) Also, FYI, I'm a Kucinich fan
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DisgustedTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. You're correct bvar. I actually liked what he had to say on MTP
I will not vote for Ralph, but instead of ranting like lunatics did any of you happen to actually LISTEN?

Conyers to possibly introduce IMPEACHMENT filing vs. * on Iraq. Nader also defended Clinton's impeachment as being irrelevant compared to what ammunition the Democratic party has now.

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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. la-la-la-la-la
First of all, please forgive our gnashing of teeth and beating of chests...

Second of all, who the hell cares about what he said on MTP? I would probably care if he wouldn't have announced his candidacy... my vision turned red at that point. I have been doing penance for the last 2 and half years at least over this and for him to be so psycho-delusional really pisses me off.
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DisgustedTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. I'm not voting for him expatriot - he's irrelevant.
If Kerry winds up being the nominee ( a high likelihood), I'm voting Kerry after the TX primary. My vote is with Kucinich - who thinks like Nader, but has a conscience.

I agree with some of the earlier posters - use Nader as another mouthpiece to get the word out where others (i.e Kucinich) are largely being ignored.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
76. Nader/Ego 2004. And here's a nice AP lie...
"As the Green Party's nominee in 2000, Nader appeared on the ballot in 43 states and Washington, D.C., garnering only 2.7 percent of the vote. But in Florida and New Hampshire, Bush won such narrow victories that had Gore received the bulk of Nader's votes in those states, he would have won the general election."

The Bulk? Try 538 out of 90,000+.



Luckily Nader will not be a factor this time around.
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expatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Does Nader REALLY believe that he did not lose FL for Gore?
Is he really THAT fricking delusional... I will tell you that if Nader wasn't in the race I would have voted for Gore. And I am sure most of my friends would have too.


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Nadero4 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #80
87. I like and respect Mr. Nader..
And I fully plan on voting for him in November. I do feel that in order for true government reform to be done, it takes someone thats not in the pocket of big business as I feel both the Democratic and Republican party are.
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
101. More Dems in FLA voted Bush
so 250,000 Democrats voted for Bush in 2000 FLA, yet Nader is to blame for the loss?
1.1 MILLION gays voted Bush nationwide 2000, yet Nader is to blame for the loss?
How does that work?
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dw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
85. This is his rationale...
From his website:

Apart from their ways, the democrats need to be shown additional ways -- strong, rational, emotive ways to defeat Bush and the Republicans. Why? Because their leaders and consultants are either too cautious, too unimaginative or too indentured to vested interests to even conceive, not to mention field test, these vulnerabilities of the Bush regime.

Enter an independent candidacy in a duopolized system who does not believe the election has to be totally enclosed by a zero-sum game among the major candidates. Instead there should be various strategies and probes and anticipations inside the electoral arena that in important ways escape the zero-sum mind so as to more likely achieve the common goal of ouster.


Why not work within the party, Ralph? Doing it this way, you're proving yourself to be just an egomaniacal moron!!!
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Entente Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
91. Democrats will win, Bush will lose
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 12:01 PM by Entente
In the meantime we need to accept Nader. I think Nader running could turn in our favor. He will be saying things that need to be said, and everytime Bush will look worse and worse.

I will be voting for Kerry, but will definitely be listenning to Nader!!!
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Nadero4 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Nader is my man!!
I plan on listening to all the cadidates and sincerly hope that Mr. Nader will be invited to debates and be heard. I am leaning heavily towards Nader however.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. Hahaa, good one, freeper.
Sorry. Go ahead and warn me.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #93
121. LOL! Buh-Bye!
:nuke:
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #93
135. Why?
I may have respected him 5 or 6 years ago. But I've had second thoughts ever since.
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
94. My email to nader
You said today you want to unseat bush.
Liar.
By doing this you play right into their hands.
But you know that all ready.
Pathetic attempt to stroke your ego, ralph.
Oh, how much are you getting from the fascists to run?

Sign me disgusted.


I cannot believe this, I really want an answer from him.
The payoff is??

nader is a fascist enabler.

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JackDragna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
95. Ah, here comes the indignation.
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 12:37 PM by JackDragna
Constant slander of the man as egomaniacal, uncaring about the American public. No mention is made, of course, of the two major remaining Democratic candidates supporting the president in two of his worst political decisions, namely the Iraq war and the Patriot act. Ralph Nader is the product of liberal discontent with the Democratic party, not its cause. He would not exist as a political force in 2004 if the Democratic party had not been so eager to march lock-step with the president, beating the drums of war. Nader also exists because the Democratic party now seems interested in running mostly centrist candidates who will criticize the president, but not push any policy the public might see as "liberal." The DLC's badmouthing of Howard Dean and the abuse Dean and Kucinich took during the debates are examples of this.

The problem with that strategy is that it allows Republicans to better frame political discourse at the national level. The Republicans have moved so far to the right and so embraced the language of super-patriotism and simple-answers-to-complex-questions that a simple "that's just not a good idea" won't do. The Democratic candidates end up looking maudlin and unattractive. Bill Clinton did well as that style of candidate, but Clinton was also a good campaigner. Al Gore was not and I fear Mr. Kerry won't be, either. The bottom line is that even if Mr. Nader didn't exist, the Democratic party is adopting a long-term strategy of failure by pushing people like Kerry. As the situation in the U.S. worsens, people want someone whose differences between the Republicans are sharply defined. I know Kerry is much more liberal on his social positions, but sharing the same positions on big issues like whether to go to war on Iraq weakens him as a candidate. The big issues get the most media coverage and if those in your electoral base see you as too much like the opposition, they'll vote for a third-party candidate or just not vote at all. Republicans toss bones to their voting blocs (born-again Christians, NRA members, etc), yet the Democratic party seems to want to alienate its base.

So, before all of you crucify Mr. Nader, remember he wouldn't exist if the Democratic party wasn't mismanaging its presidential campaigns. Dean may have been conservative on some issues, but he took umbrage with the president on those issues which will get the most play in the media. If you support a pro-war, pro-Patriot act candidate now, you support the continued deterioration of the Democratic party at the national level.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Good post...
and it also points out a great saddness...

Your the only one out of HOW many 'Progressives' or 'liberals' in this thread that points out the obvious...

"If you support a pro-war, pro-Patriot act candidate now, you support the continued deterioration of the Democratic party at the national level."

This bears a lot of thought by people who suggest that EVEN a guy with the stature of Ralph Nader or even Dean (many many people really) can't impact the Democratic Party in any meaningful way...and so many seem to think this is right and proper.

Shut up and vote...coz we have to defeat (fill in the blank)...

How many times have heard this 'battlecry' on the Left? Sure, ABB--but does this also go for ABGov.,ABRep, ABsenator, etc etc...

Get a little meat to the debate guys

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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
99. Who?
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
103. Its always been about
ralph. He should be an insignificant factor in the election and will be lucky to pick up 1% of the vote, if moore runs he ought to get that much as well. I do think Kerry will be forced to not neglect the progressive vote however, which he shouldn't forget anyways.
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Nadero4 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
105. Give him a chance
If getting Bush out office is so important, maybe the Dem's should look at voting for Nader. If the only result wanted is ABB, why not run with Nader.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #105
123. Still here? Well... Nader has zero chance. Zilch. Nada. Zip.
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 03:29 PM by FlashHarry
A vote for any third party 'progressive' candidate is a vote for Bush, pure and simple.
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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
107. He has a right to run. And he'll score some points on bu$h.
Raising the impeachment issue, like he did on MTP, can only serve to weaken the incumbent and the Congress that refuses to fulfill their constitutional duty.

Nader understands that only a few states are really in play. That's the great lesson of 2000.

When the dems settle on a nominee, that part of the bu$h bashing will cease until the convention. But Nader guarantees bu$h bashing all the time. I can live with that.

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
109. I agree with what most of you said: Nader doesn't give a hairy rat's ass
what happens to this country. His decision to run can only hurt us.
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Nadero4 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. And the Democrats deserve it..
Nader voters will stick with Nader because the underlying issue remains the same. The two parties differ only by which corporations pay them. Democrats supported the war. Democrats voted for the Patriot Act. Democrats have stood by and let Bush do everything he has done. Anyone paying attention knew there were no WMD long before the war started. Anyone paying attention knew the Patriot Act was unnecessary and would be abused. Democrats are gutless Republican wanna-bes. If anything, the appalling Democrat response to Bush has me even more committed to voting for Nader. If Democrats want to hand the election to Bush again, so be it. They are ruining this country by their gutless nature. I'm voting for Nader.

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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #111
126. The RNC thanks you for your vote.
Why not cut out the middle-man and just contribute here.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #111
131. I'm probably not voting for Nader. It's a taste question
But I'm supporting his entry into the race. Much of your critique I agree with - it formed the basis of my vote for Nader last time.

However, consider this riddle. If the two parties are essentially the same, then why not choose the more palatable of the two? Surely staring at Kerry's lantern-jawed somnambulence for four years is preferable to enduring Bush's flinty-eyed ignorance.

And I don't mean merely physical difference. Bush is a pre-modern fundamentalist; he is western civ's version of an Islamicist, with the autocratic and theocratic tendencies magnified by the enormous arsenal at his disposal. He must go. Further, a Kerry regime will appoint reasonably sane modern men and women to key departments. They won't be as mad as Bush's lot. Their policies may differ in small or even in no degree (e.g., trade), but they'll be marginally easier to stomach.

Then there is the matter of appointments. Do we want Justice Stevens' seat to be picked by the current administration? Shouldn't we try to keep a few more raging right wingers off the bench for as long as we can? I know it's a losing battle, but we might be able to eke another quarter century of reasonably post-medieval justice out of this broken, doomed system.

Yes, barring the big deal of court appointments, taste is the crucible. We're going to get corpocracy anyway. Why not get a less vulgar form of it?
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #111
138. You are in a minority.
tht is growing smaller over time. I can not vote for him ever. ABBXN
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Supply Side Jesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
110. Nader: Super size my ego please!!
Hey Nader, the only thing thats going to get spoiled is the potato salad when no one shows up for your stinking rallies.
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Jinx Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
112. No ones going to vote for this guy
What an ego.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
118. My he wither at the vine and disappear.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
119. I guess he thinks he's doing us all some big favor...
...of RALPH- MY SAVIOR!!!!!! :puke:
:puke:
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
120. Just because you can make a difference
does not mean you always should. Nader has LONG outlived any usefullness he ever had. I used to respect him...... many years back.
All he can be now is a political pariah/ parasite.
The SOB has done enough harm already.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
122. Nader can educate Kerry and the Democratic leadership
Can't say I'm happy about this news, even though I admire Nader's distinguished career. Not that I'm worried about him hurting Kerry's chances; I'm simply sorry Nader has no chance of winning. But it's not all bad.

The good part about Nader running is that it will help with the Democrats' NASCAR drift - the past quarter century of pandering to the right on issues like taxes, trade, corporate regulation, and, lately, war. Nader can help keep the party honest by forcing it to pay attention to its liberal-progressive roots, and by showing it what real opposition to abusive corporate power looks like. (Hint: if you voted for most of Bush's regressive policies, you were part of the problem.) And the first lesson that needs to be learned: NAFTA has to go.

Will this cost Kerry the election? Well, there's a way to avoid that, isn't there: the party can further distance itself from the GOP, and Kerry can shift his views on issues of importance to progressives. No one should bemoan Nader's threat of taking left votes from Kerry if Kerry doesn't change. That's how the game of politics has always been played - pressure!

On the occasion of Nader announcing, it's time to refer people again to Harper's Magazine editor Lewis H. Lapham's brilliant 2001 essay on him. If you've never read it, here's your chance:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/1804_301/6469752...
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GaryL Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
127. My repug. buddies are absolutely gleeful over this.
Just as in 2000, Ralph the wonder dog will do everything he can to siphon votes from ANYWHERE! This man built his career and his fortune on sensationalism and there was no doubt he was going to run again. He simply can not stand to be out of the spotlight.

He will focus on the Iraq war vote and the "similarities" of the two candidates all over again, despite whatever he's spewing today. What as ass!
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. Check your facts
Whatever your personal animus against Nader, there's still a burden to get the facts right.

Nader built his career on opposing irresponsible manufacturing decisions. His campaign against unsafe cars brought him to prominence.

Over the years, he built several public interest groups that have campaigned tirelessly for reform. He's sued the government successfully many times to halt or prevent overreaching of government power.

Nader's much more than you give him credit for being. You could learn a lot from him, Gary.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. But I still hold him accountable
for the results of the 2000 election. Sorry. He adds nothing of value today, unless its to be a lighting rod for the GOP.
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GaryL Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #132
139. You might check yours too.
I know what Ralph has done. I don't discredit the short term results. Unfortunately, what I dislike most about him is his "throw out the baby with the bathwater" approach. I can debate with you all day that he helped kill the early small car industry in the US and numerous other examples, but I won't.

I'm sorry, but I've worked with too many people behind the scenes who grapple with much the same as Ralph has. They have had to eat a lot of s*** to get desired results and they're not making a fortune off their work, unlike Nadar. Those are the people I choose to learn from. You might try it too.
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
130. He's the Corvair of Candidates!
Ralph Nader is no consumer advocate. Ralph Nader is a man afflicted with delusions of adequacy, and he presents himself with all the passion of an old maid's neutered tabby cat. Letting a touch of resentment creep into his monotonous drone, he remarked that he thought being called a spoiler was a term of "contempt".

Damn straight it is. Contempt is too good for Ralph Nader, and the fact that he confuses contempt with clout is laughable -- or would be, if the end result wouldn't be four more years of a bushwhacked administration.


More of Sherrie G's scathe of Ralphie here!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #133
140. Bye Bye Freeper!
**drop this Kerry guy and through your support behind Nader**

the fact that you can't put together a grammatically correct sentence was the dead giveaway.

I'll leave you with this: Your monkey boy prez is going to get his head handed to him this election.

Now go back to Freeperland and tell 'em you just got dissed at DU :)
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #133
141. because he is clueless
If I believed he could do a "Ross Perot" to the chimp...then maybe i would not be so vexed by Naders entry into the race. Nader is clueless. More of a lose cannon than a viable candidate.
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #133
144. Doc_Groan on Nader's (cough) "courage" (snicker)
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 06:49 PM by johnfunk
"Nader's courage has energized me and thousands like me to get in {sic} the game."

First, Dick... er, Doc, it would help your credibility immensely if you would take the time to learn American English grammar.

Second, what "courage"? Do you mean:
- The courage to snub, insult and demean Green Party volunteers and organizers in favor of his quite Roveian inner circle of compadres from Public Citizen during the 2000 campaign?

- The courage to make his various organizations block public input?

- The courage to bust unions? (I can see that this would appeal to a FReeper.)

- The courage to attack his those who have questions about him in a vindictive manner? (I can see that this would also appeal to a FReeper.)

- The courage to conceal a luxury GOP lifestyle?
Well, Dick... er, Doc?

He might have shown courage by dropping out a few days before to 2000 election -- but then, I wouldn't hold my breath for a demonstration of courage from millionaire stockholder/investor Ralph Nader.

But he didn't.

Because he's a phony.

And you've either been had -- or are a FReeper. Which is it, Dick... er, Doc?
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
134. Ralph Nader and Karl Rove
Two idiots who are happy today.
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He loved Big Brother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
137. Why should we feel threatened?
If the Democrats feel threatened, they should just adopt some of his positions.

If they don't feel his positions are in sync with the Democratic platform, they have nothing to worry about and no room to bitch.

Competition is good. It makes people work all the harder to earn the support and votes of their rivals.

A lot of people say Nader is why we have Bush. They forget to mention the huge number of Democrats who voted for Bush. Were Nader not in the 2000 race, perhaps the majority of Nader voters would have voted for Gore. Perhaps not. Obviously, Gore did not give them enough reason to vote for him. Vote-Fraud is why Gore lost Florida and the election, not Nader's candidacy. If Democrats want to bitch about Nader, they should also bitch about Dems who voted for Bush, and Dems who didn't vote at all.

They should also remember that Gore's positions won him over half a million votes more than Bush, DESPITE Nader being in the race.

Some Senators ask where's the sense in the fact that 41 votes can override 59 or some variation thereof. To that I ask, where's the sense in one guy getting over half a million more votes than his rival and yet not winning the presidency? Runoff voting would make more sense than the electoral college method.
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SideshowScott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
146. I have a question: Will Nader run as a green or not?
Then if not will the Greens run a Pres? After the election 2000 and the California recall it seems to be a republican strategy to try to split the democratic vote as many ways as possible.. I'm not saying that Nader or the Greens are pro republican but the republicans are defiantly pro Greens and Nader..Im sure there was much rejoicing in ingoreland today.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. independent
:)
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SideshowScott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Great.......
Now the vote will be split 3 ways against bush....Im telling you guys its a new republican stargey..Nader and the Greens will be cashing big checks from GW's war chest and Friends
When Nader said that he will go after bush i really really dont believe him after the "there is no difference between Bush and Gore" lie.
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Fargin Ice Hole Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
149. Boy, for someone no one cares about, he sure gets alot of posts.
I mean really... It's like you all come scouring out of the wood work to voice your oppinions about this guy.He sure brings out more anger in most of you then Bush does.

I love the hipocricy of this website being pro democratic????
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