Bailout failure 'will cause US crash’

[Mojorabbit]

Source: telegraph


Bailout failure 'will cause US crash’
The US stock market could suffer a devastating crash with shares losing a third of their value this week if Hank Paulson’s financial bailout plan fails, US Treasury officials have warned.
The financial system could face a meltdown of 1929 proportions unless US politicians succeed in their efforts for a $700bn rescue scheme, experts added.

snip
One Republican said that the message from government officials is that “the economy is dropping into the john.” He added: “We could see falls of 3,000 or 4,000 points on the Dow . That could happen in just a couple of days.

“What’s being put around behind the scenes is that we’re looking at 1930s stuff. We’re looking at catastrophe, huge, amazing catastrophe. Everybody is extraordinarily scared. It’s going to be really, really nasty.”

Investors fretted about contagion into Europe, where Fortis, which was part of the consortium that bought ABN Amro last year, fired its chief executive after liquidity concerns pushed shares down more than 20pc to a 14-year low. Holland’s ING and BNP Paribas are looking at buying the bank this weekend.
more at link


Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3094318/Bailout-failure-will-cause-US-crash.html

[rateyes]

1. That would be one helluva market correction.

:banghead:

[BearSquirrel2]

68. It's inevitable ...

There was too much credit in the market. Honestly, from a Democratic standpoint, it would be better to have the crash on the REPUBLICAN watch.

Democrats need to load the bailout with every progressive ideal they can including bumping up capital gains taxes. Then let the President veto it. And THEN if the market crashes, it will be GW Bush's fault.

Come on, you guys all know this correction is going to happen!!!!

[nolabels]

99. A lot of them don't want to admit it

Though nobody can be sure how far it's going to fall there seems to be a percentage that don't want to think that way. Reminds me children who must swallow some bad tasting cough syrup. They will try run off and play even though mother is calling

[rockymountaindem]

2. They'd suspend trading before that happened

That's just the Repubs. trying to get the Democrats to cave as soon as possible. I don't buy it.

[Mojorabbit]

4. They seem really worried about getting this

done before the Asian markets open. I wonder if they think a lot of Asian money will be moved out of our markets? The funding of our debt will be cut off?

[rockymountaindem]

9. That's two totally different things n/t

[Mojorabbit]

11. Maybe

but the market goes up or down and massive amts of money is moved on mere rumors. If any semblance of confidence is gone then we could have a problem. I think the whole market is little more than a casino anymore.

[wordpix]

88. you might be onto something, especially with our owing the Chinese for our

$10 trillion debt.

[PSPS]

3. Sorry, but when I see headlines like this, I'm convinced we're being conned.

[glinda]

15. IS THE BAIL OUT BLACKMAIL? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a strange thought today thinking that the timing of the elections, the Military positioning in the US, the problems with voter registration and machines, the ALL OF A SUDDEN BAIL OUT CRISIS, the massive amount of legal cases pending or starting against the Administration and other Republicans, ....what if they are all connected. I mean, what if the Bail Out thing is being shoveled to the Dems to pass in lieu of shutting down the Elections and declaring a National Emergency. What if the President and associated peeps want cash, the Dems to take the hit, the public to take the hit and want to be let go of future charges and that this whole thing is about that. I think I am going a bit mad? I mean, it seems that this would explain the small 2.5 page proposal if you assume that the Dems know what is going on and that this whole thing is a "clean-up" agreement. That would be blackmail would it not?
I had worked long enough in Politics and Community Issues in the past to know that there are no coincidences but there are always connections.

[Mojorabbit]

18. I don't know

but Hong Kong had a run on their bank and Europe seems to be propping up banks too.

[glinda]

23. Forgot to add....

this is about Individual Global Power now not Country Power. Thoughts still work even when this is added. Many of the people in charge even oversees many have connections to people here. Some probably are the same people who work together. I would assume that whatever the crooks do here would certainly affect over there. I was thinking that this whole thing was controlled to go either this way or that.

[0rganism]

75. I had similar thoughts yesterday

Mine are more along the lines of the bailout being protection money to let Obama/Biden survive the election.

I tried to start a thread about it, but it got locked for being an unfounded and inflammatory conspiracy theory. :)

[wordpix]

87. Or is the bailout like WMD in Iraq!? WMD - 911! Must go to Iraq NOW. Sounds eerily familiar

:scared:

[Zhade]

93. YES. It's economic terrorism to steal a trillion dollars!

NT!

[superconnected]

38. We are.

[KT2000]

80. We have already been conned

and we now have the results of that.
I tend to think that we need to do something because a crash will hurt all of us.

I think that this is the result of "impeachment is off the table,"
the repubs blocking investigations all these years
dem acquiescence to deregulation
lobbyists running our government

we get burned if there is a crash and we get burned if there is a bailout. The question for us is - which is worse?

[Regret My New Name]

102. Yeah, I get the same feelings when I read stuff like that...

But I don't really know though, but they can't blame people for being skeptical of this whole thing. Although, I would hope that if that was the case then more democrats, hell even some more republicans, would be out there making no doubt that it was some sort of scam....

[rzemanfl]

5. Terror, terror, mushroom clouds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let the Repukes

figure this shit out.

[graywarrior]

6. Boo! Are we orange now?

Sheesh.

[Mojorabbit]

7. another tidbit

Principal Negotiators Meet in Pelosi's Office
Email
Share

September 27, 2008 5:32 PM

ABC News' Z. Byron Wolf Reports: After a week of roller coaster political wrangling, principal negotiators from both parties and houses of Congress met in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office with Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Saturday to hash out a final deal on a sweeping plan to rescue the nation's economy.

Pelosi left the negotiators alone in her office and walked elsewhere in the Capitol, but told reporters that she expects a deal tonight, with votes to come early next week.
snip
Meantime, few details were few coming out of the room. ABC News' Jake Tapper reported that the blackberries of staffers were seized and put in a trashcan to cut down on leaks.
snip

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/09/principal-negot.html

[Zhade]

24. SHE LEFT THE ROOM?

She is so fucking useless, the cowardly quisling.

[bemildred]

8. You know, "cause" is just not the right word here.

"Mark" or "indicate" or "be the start of the acute phase of" or something like that would work. But the "cause" goes back to more fundamental issues than this fatuous attempt to put a finger in the dike.

[Doctor_J]

10. If Congress wants to show us they're trying to help,

they should say they're working on a plan without *, Paulson, or Bernanke. Take * and all of his minions out of the equation, period

[Mojorabbit]

12. I agree

and they should be holding press conferences explaining what they are doing as the process moves along. There has been total silence today except that they think a plan will be done this weekend.

[orwell]

13. Bullshit...

Even if we had a massive drop it would not occur that fast.

[clixtox]

63. Many financial (aka "black swan") catastrophes are occurring which were never...

supposed to happen, well almost never...

Just because something hasn't happened before and should, according to flawed premises, be so unlikely that no underwriting provision needs to be made, doesn't mean it is impossible. Look around! Cwide, Lehman, BearS, fannie & freddie, WaMu

The markets could take an unprecedented dump regardless of what happens with the so-called "bail out". Even if it goes through, in any form, it would be just another stop-gap, thumb-in-the-dike" partial delaying tactic for the inevitable.

If I am correct, or not, the perception of the the investor class, and their minions, is that the hundreds of TRILLIONS of U$ dollars wrapped up in the esoteric paper assets underpinning the whole financial balloon are basically worthless right now because of their being so inter-connected and inter-dependent. The safeguards that were supposed to cover the banks and other investors and issuers a joke now and a huge part of the problem themselves.

I think the best option now is to bring the troops home now and nothing else!

[orwell]

100. Hundreds of Trillions?

...Some say as much as a Quadrillion in derivatives floating around. Pretty soon you are talking about real money...

I agree with much of your post. I don't agree that such a move would happen in days. There are circuit breakers in place that weren't there in the 87 crash (20%+ in one day. I remember trading that day...) There is also a Plunge Protection Team in place that would buy S&P futures if it got too ugly in one day. They would also suspend trading if things got really ugly (remember 9/11.)

I'm not saying that the market can't crash, just that it wouldn't happen in a period of days.

[lligrd]

14. Funny, They Didn't Seem Worried When They Were Getting Us

into this mess. They are either just trying to finish their plan up by ensuring the government can't afford "entitlement" programs anymore or (and this is my take on it) they really are scared because they realize that they screwed up so badly that they even broke themselves. I figure we are screwed either way.

[scarface2004]

16. so...all we have to do is elect mkane/pailen, problem solved!

according to everything i m hearing!

[stillcool]

17. Sure would be nice if there were..

something a person like me could believe. I have never felt so incredibly ignorant. I've done a lot of guess work these last 8 years, but this one is beyond even supposition.

[depakid]

19. Bottom line- the lunatic House Republicans aren't necessary to get a deal done

Hopefully, the Senate Republicans realize this, when push comes to shove.

[mbperrin]

20. Don't need a deal. The market is correctly pricing these currently

overvalued securities, and the market is buying. JP Morgan took WAMU, Buffett is putting billions into Goldman Sachs. There's nothing holy about current values.

Actually, taxing, printing, or borrowing $700 billion with either cut demand sharply, hike inflation to unreal heights, or crowd all other borrowers from the markets. Of course, those who pocket the $700 billion won't give a shit about that. They'll be sitting in Dubai or name your other foreign country of choice laughin' at the rubes.

Hank Paulson made $42 million on his Goldman shares increase on Thursday. That's how I KNOW he's just trying to do the right thing here. Right?

Congress go home. Nothing to see here; market forces are at work. When idiots put sticks in spokes, spokes break, sticks splinter, and dumb little boys get broken hands. All a part of learning.

[Demeter]

21. The US Stock Markets Will Crash Regardless

There are only fingernails that are keeping the markets up right now, to wit:

1) They pull out defunct companies (like AIG) and sub in others (like Kraft Cheese) to keep the Dow artificially inflated. Moving the goal posts at will.

2) The ban on short-selling of any kind shuts down the price-correcting mechanism of the markets. Prices don't rise, but they don't fall, either. Volume declines to a torpid rate. Churning abates. The dissonance between price and value grows.

3) The Fed pumps carloads of cash into the markets in an attempt to re-inflate the bubble. This used to work fairly well and for fairly long periods, but lately it's a daily attempt to prevent a natural corrective process from going forth.

4) The belief in the inevitable BAILOUT has people sitting on their hands, when they're not clasped in prayer.

We can have a managed crash, or a towering crash. What we cannot have is no crash at all. The bailout will ensure that we have a towering crash and no resources to rebuild the country with, afterwards. Is that worth another quarter's delay? I don't think so.

[ozone_man]

26. Well said!

Bail outs will not change the ultimate destination of the market, which is much further down from here.

Put money into something useful like renewable energy development.

I like James K. Galbraith's plan to put several hundred billion into FDIC, but no bail outs.

[ixion]

34. exactly...

it would be much better to try and manage this rather than continue to artificially inflate the system until it collapses.

[fedsron2us]

73. So true.

The whole point of a free market is to let assets find their true value. They can do it quickly or they can do it slowly but they always wind up in the same place in the end. What is ironic is that the High priests of capitalism on Wall Street only want a rigged game. They never really believed in their own free enterprise doctrine. They were just hypocrites like most of the politburo in the old Soviet Union. The crushing irony is that they may well be about to find out that their hoary old mantra about not 'bucking the market' was true.

[Neshanic]

76. Most sensible post yet. You are exactly correct.

[Poseidan]

22. National Socialism

Let's not become Nazi Germany.

[dehaiti]

25. Dow Down 3-4000? Good

Stocks are grossly inflated even now, historically speaking. The price to earnings and cash flow is way above the norm for the history of the market. Irrational exuberance still prevails.
The wholesale marketing of gambling while calling it investing and relying on inventions such as credit default swaps and esoteric derivatives backed by little or nothing tangible must end. Might as well get it over with. Will it be painless? No, but maybe a dose of pain is what it will take to bring people to their senses. None of the people that brought this debacle on seem to be jumping out of windows as they did during the depression, perhaps they need a shove.

[greyghost]

27. Spot on.

[CountAllVotes]

28. agree ...

When the DOW was below 5,000 the economy was a hell of a lot better than it is now. Wages were about the same and everything else is on the decline.

It has no business staying where it is now. Nothing justifies it IMO.

:dem:

[Psephos]

29. Pensions wiped out? Good! State govts bankrupt? Good! Bank runs? Good! Obama's budget gone? Good!

Cuz all these things are a reasonable price to pay for enjoying the schadenfreude of "rich" people wailing and gnashing their teeth.

Meanwhile, you can kiss your own job good bye.

[provis99]

33. none of that will happen. Have you been drinking Republican kool-aid?

[rayofreason]

43. This is no kool-aid

Wachovia is about to go under. Fortis in Europe is about to as well. The damage done to the world's financial system by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae through bundling up bad loans and selling them as grade-A mortgage-back securities is enormous.

If you have a business, think about how long will you be able to function without credit. If you work for a business think about how long you will have a job if businesses go under as the velocity of money slows to a crawl. If you retired, consider what will happen if your pension equity drops by 30%.

This is no kool-aid.

[mbperrin]

46. I've been in business since 1968 and have never borrowed a dime.

We owe no debt and our rate of return is 83% of gross revenues, pre-tax. We'll be fine, and any other prudent business person will be, too.

Who WON'T be fine? Those who never understood cash flow, and those who need a continuous handout because their business model never was any good.

What WILL create havoc is this bailout. Raising $700 billion to give away can only be done through taxes or printing currency or borrowing it.

Tax increase this size will bring the economy to a standstill because there is no increase in production linked to it. Just printing it will ignite inflation not seen since the Weimar Republic. Borrowing it will crowd out all other borrowers and send general interest rates sky high.

How will any of those help any prudent business?

It won't. We don't need a bailout to nowhere. New markets will be built using the good bits of the old, and by creative entrepreneurs, not the gambling hacks there now.

No bailout. No way, no how.

[Mojorabbit]

47. I just can't see supermartkets

quickly being able to pay cash for inventory plus pay for the fuel to ship products. I think before it all shakes out it will be crisis conditions. Peoples pensions would be kaput as well as retirement savings ie 401ks and IrAs.

[rayofreason]

54. Glad to hear it.

No debt, 83% return is an enviable position to be in.

I have a couple of friends who own their own businesses as well. One has been around since '68. 1868, that is. Family-run the whole time. He needed some cash a few years back to buy his father out and to expand. Another friend, also in a family business, struck out on his own recently and is doing very well. He also took out a loan to get his start. People like that are the ones who create new jobs. They will be fine, one hopes, if things go sour, because they are both very prudent and did not overextend themselves. If anything, by the amount they work, they were too conservative and could have hired and expanded more.

However, if credit dries up there won't be too many people like them out there. As the rate of circulation of money decreases and economic activity falters, all businesses can get hurt.

I agree with you that the bailout should not be a giveaway. And that it should be done in stages, so that markets can adequately price the value of investment being bought. Otherwise we will overpay. I certainly don't like the idea of paying for this. I have a house and a mortgage and I have always paid my bills on time. Now we are stuck with this mess because a huge number of mortgages were made to people who had no business having the mortgages they had (0% down, interest-only ARM, no income verification, etc.). But I don't want a meltdown either.

I do find it interesting that Newt Gingrich, George Soros, and The Nation are against any bailout.

[BearSquirrel2]

70. Agreed but there is an answer to liquidity without a bailout ...

First, let all that paper burn. Those who invested in it deserve to lose their shirts. Not every lender is involved and we should offer government secured backing for financially prudent lenders to keep lines of credit open.

Finally, there WILL be a correction and it is in the Democrats best interest if it happens BEFORE the election. Otherwise, it will be called the Obama Depression instead of the Bush depression.

[coalition_unwilling]

85. I hope your customers do not use debit or credit cards or, if invoiced net-30, do

not rely on revolving bank lines of credit. What kind of business can you be in that would maintain its free cash flow, even as the economy around it craters? You must be one smart operator, right up there with the likes of Warren Buffett and such-like.

[riskpeace]

98. Why bail out those whose retirement equity is in stocks,

and not those who chose to invest in real estate?

I made the incredibly foolish decision to concentrate my retirement investments in Florida real estate about five years ago. Guess how that's worked out for me? Not so good. Over the last three years, I've lost about half of the equity in those investments. It's been very unfortunate. No one rushed to bail me out as the value of my overinflated retirement investments plummeted. And I did not expect anyone to. Why should those who have 401K-based retirement plans get the bailout? That just makes no sense to me.

[olddad56]

36. I think to consider all of that good makes me think you are a fascist.

and a narrow minded one at that, go vote for McCain and get out of here.

[rayofreason]

40. I think...

...you misunderstood his point.

These things Psephos talks about are BAD not good. His point is that we need to do something to prevent such a crash from happening, which I also believe is needed.

We also need to know how we got here and make sure it never happens again. See my other post downthread.

[Psephos]

41. Wake up old dad, I consider all of those a nightmare

Did I really need to put a sarcasm tag on that?

I doubt the worst is going to happen, but Congress is playing Russian roulette, and what was once impossible has instead become only improbable.

Liquidity is the life-blood of the "real" economy as well as of the financial economy, and without it, the real economy will spiral quickly into deflation, massive joblessness, and the end of many things we take for granted.

[Rockholm]

52. It is everybody that loses, not just the "rich"

Your comment is most ignorant.

[Psephos]

65. I fully agree with you - all would suffer in a credit freeze and asset deflation.

My comment was a parody.

:hi:

The poor would suffer disproportionately and drastically in a financial collapse, which is why I find the anarchists who want the market to crash and the banking system to crumble so repellent.

[dehaiti]

64. Wailing and Gnashing Due!

Many people would consider me one the 'rich people' though I am not in the classic sense wealthy. Would I gnash my teeth and wail? No, but I know people who would because they thought the general populace was too ignorant to ever conceive of the financial 'instruments of mass destruction' they had invented. They literally banked on that and got caught out when their house of straw began tumbling.
"Meanwhile, you can kiss your own job good bye."
If those who perpetrated this con aren't held accountable or forced to lose their ill gotten gains there will later be no jobs to kiss good bye for the average worker in the USA, your jobs will join the ranks of the out-sourced or servile.
Should the people of the USA choose to accept to be blackmailed by these greedy bastards and their partners in government they deserve the fate coming to them which is no job security at all except for those who are capable of holding a country for ransom and their servants.

[Rockholm]

48. Not good. Are you out of your mind?!

[western mass]

66. Double-Plus Good!!!

Looks like somebody doesn't understand the free market.

Stocks will sell according to their value. If stock values drop, that means people realize they're overvalued. If they later realize that they're now undervalued, the stock market will rise again.

What, do you want the government to keep the value of stocks artificially inflated? *That's insane.* I'm not sure there's even a word for that kind of economic system...maybe Corporate Welfare State?

[Rockholm]

96. Maybe we will meet one another in the bread line then.

[BearSquirrel2]

69. I want people on Wall Street to suffer ...

Serious, they looked down their noses and talked about natural "market force" when the high tech industry was gutted and shipped overseas. They've been living high on the hog while I've been suffering. Fuck em' and I hope after they lose THEIR life savings just like me, they jump off their buildings.

[mdmc]

90. I agree

:toast:

[Waiting For Everyman]

30. We might be better off if we

let it crash
mortgage and debt moratorium for a while
outlaw and void derivatives, shorting, speculating
usury limit 2% over cost
guarantee pension funds and deposits

re-fund a new government-held Bank of the US based on reworked WHOLE mortgages, and then do other kinds of debts totally readjusted and rightened.

We need to get rid of the banks and their fantasies, and keep the middle class.

[ishtar66]

32. 90% tax on the top 0.5%-1%

that would address most of your points

[Waiting For Everyman]

35. Yup, that needs doing anyway.

Too much money in too few hands is a power problem, which breeds this kind of problem. The top .5% is a bubble in itself... which needs popping BADLY.

[coalition_unwilling]

86. Cut the defense budget 50-70%. That would also help a lot - n/t

[Waiting For Everyman]

31. It would've been easier to rework mortgages and put a leash on banks 2 yrs. ago.

But nobody cared.

[rayofreason]

39. True enough.

All of this can be traced back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac playing fast and loose with the numbers and encouraging banks to make mortgage loans with 0% down, interest-only, low-rate ARMs that adjust in a year or less! Lots of people with zero credit who had no business buying a house got loans, and many others got loans for purchases far above their ability to pay. All this extra cash chasing the existing housing stock drove up the prices to unsustainable levels.

Lots of mortgages were lent out to people with no credit, or for houses too expensive, or on adjustable terms that that could not be sustained, with no money down, interest only, etc.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bought all the bad paper and recycled it into the economy. Since they were taking it up, many banks said "what the hell - offer more interest only ARMs". Sure, some people were sucked in by predatory lenders, but not all, and not most. Most of these folks made a bad decision based on the expectation that houses, like tulip bulbs, would continue to skyrocket in price. I know several people who bought houses in 2004 and 2005 just to flip them. Lesson to be learned - when everybody starts talking about a boom, the upside is already past. Now, the boom has gone bust, as they always do. But this time, the numbers are big, and because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac covered it up, and injected all this bad stuff into the financial bloodstream, the credit markets have seized up. Each lost dollar of assets means 10 dollars of lost liquidity - money that cannot be lent or circulated in the economy. Something has to be done.

So it remains to the 90% of homeowners, like me, who paid their bills on time and have reasonable mortgages, to bail out the other 10% in some way. What I want to make sure is that however it is done, it does not encourage bad, irresponsible behavior in the future.

Want to read some dark comedy that captures the whole mess? Check this out.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2007/12/please-don...

And note that it was posted in December 2007. Funny and prescient.


The people running Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from 2002-2008 should be investigated and charged with gross negligence. And those who aided, abetted and drove these policies in Washington should be exposed for what they have done. No matter what party. Here is a quote from 2003 NYT article. ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative XXXXX, the ranking XXXX on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Fill in the X's and feel sick about it. People knew, but those who wanted change were blocked.

Here is more - the banks throwing PARTIES for Congressional Representatives this year. 258 parties!!!!

http://sunlightfoundation.com/presscenter/releases/2008... /

Throw the bums out. Both sides.

[CountAllVotes]

42. and to think, we already gave Fannie/Freddie a load of $$$

and they should be in jail as they are criminals of the worst kind as they are now being investigated by the FBI. Instead, we reward them. :wtf:

And We the People have raised up and said hell no to this plan. We are deemed to be intolerant for our views of not supporting this bail out as should be the case.

Why should the honest people (90%+) have to pay for the crimes and lies of the other 10%? :mad:

:dem:

[rayofreason]

44. I am as angry as you..

..but the first order of business is to keep a meltdown from happening.

Once the credit market is stabilized THEN we should hold hearings to investigate all of those folks who were running the show when Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were cooking the books. How many millions did they make? They should have to pay it all back. Those in charge when Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae was faking things should not have just lost their jobs, they should have gone to jail.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32845-2005Apr6.html

ANYONE who had oversight responsibilities with regard to the mortgage industry show have to divulge what kind of rates and terms THEY got over the past few years. And EVERYONE in Congress who got contributions from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should have to explain themselves, in order of the amounts they got over the last few years. Moreover, those folks should not be able to control the hearings and hush things up. Chris Dodd maybe a Democrat who has done good things in the past, but he is up to his neck in this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/13/chris-dodd-kent-conrad-ti_n_106925.html

Yes, there were bad policies. And worse yet, lots of corruption. We ordinary folks are left holding the bag.

Lets get a handle on the crisis first, but then, no holds barred investigations and I don't care who get hammered as long as they deserve it.

[Mojorabbit]

49. There is this too

and it was more than mortgages that caused the problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/business/28melt.html?pagewanted=1&ref=us

[rayofreason]

57. Very interesting...

1. Write insurance policies on debt you think is good, but which is really based on toxic paper (traceable to mortgage-backed securities)
2. Do it through a company with an impeccable reputation, so strong that the policies do not have to be collateralized
3. Make a lot of money doing 1 and 2, which encourages more 1 and 2
4. Set yourself up for a fall while giving your clients a false sense of security
5. Watch it all crash down around you as the housing bubble bursts and the foreclosures roll in

Thanks for the link.

[amandabeech]

72. You slipped your tulip analogy in very gracefully.

This should be a bit of a "Tiptoe through the tulips," indeed.

With thanks to Tiny Tim and the Dutch.

[superconnected]

37. Fear fear fear. Big dollars in fear.

It's a frigging industry. Bush runs it quite well.

[unkachuck]

45. Bailout failure 'will cause US crash’....

....how do we know that?....because 'they' tell us so....because the liars, thieves and scoundrels of wall street tells us so....the greedy who caused the crash will benefit from the crash and if it doesn't crash they'll steal our cash....win, win, win, they never lose playing 'happy capitalism'....

"...we’re looking at 1930s stuff." .... "It’s going to be really, really nasty."

....well listen boys, in the age of text-messaging, the internet and high-speed computers '1930s stuff' ain't gonna cut it....if you want to keep your 'happy capitalist' system 'happy and capitalist' you'd better make damn sure '1930s stuff' never happens....

....because the next economic system we're going to try won't look anything like your 'happy capitalist' pyramid ponzi scheme, with too few winners and too many losers....we can do better, much better....

[closeupready]

50. But how do we know they are being truthful?

n/t

[Mojorabbit]

51. Are you following the weekend thread

on economics?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x388001#388004

[closeupready]

55. If these experts think it's so dire, why a need for capital gains tax cut?

Why resist the conditions which Dems wanted to put on the money? When they do crap like that, I don't sense the urgency that they want the taxpayers to feel - obviously, because they are going to take the money from the taxpayer, not from the wealthiest who could singlehandedly afford to bail out Wall Street on their own.

[closeupready]

53. One reason I don't believe this is that the GOP won't do a bailout without a capital gains tax cut.

Silly stuff like that. This tells me it's basically just pork. Yeah, it would help the market a little, but mostly, I think it's just pork for GOP interests.

[ozone_man]

56. Sort of the opposite of Sander's plan.

He wants to raise taxes 10% on the wealthy to pay for this.

I agree, if the Republicans are talking about capital gains cuts, it's a handout for Wall Street, not a help for Main Street.

[closeupready]

58. That's what I think. We've had top marginal tax rates before which

are far higher than what we have today, yet you don't hear Nancy talking about raising them. Again, she and the rest of them don't really seem to care about paying for such things out of their own pockets - they want to pick OUR pockets and redistribute wealth to those at the top. Sorry, but I just can't get behind that plan.

[BearSquirrel2]

71. Sure we'll cut it ...

We'll cut it -18%. If Republicans want to grandstand on a Capital Gains tax cut, I say we put an increase in.

[joewicker_TX]

59. This is classic Bait & Switch

We are going to get conned into accepting this crap legislation and then next election cycle, after Karl Rove and the rest of his criminal cronies have time to plan a strategy, Obama will be made out the be the "great socialist" and then here come the repukes to save the world.

[Strelnikov_]

60. Next election cycle?

Hell, the attack ads are being made as we speak, to be rolled out right after the thing passes.

The Dems could lose House, Senate and Presidency in 2008 over this debacle.

They need to find a way to delay passage until after the election.

[joewicker_TX]

61. Agreed

[IndianaGreen]

62. Since they stripped the provision to help homeowners refinance their loans

screw the bankers, and let the entire house of cards collapse!

[mbperrin]

77. Second the motion!

I really need to get a pitchfork while I still can....

[struggle4progress]

67. Waddaya expect? It's The Telegraph.

[Critters2]

74. I thought the market was going to crash this week, if the bill hadn't

passed last weekend.

The problem I have with being told the sky is falling is that, if I don't get clonked on the head with something, I become skeptical. But that's me.

Remind me again, where did the market close Friday...up, what...120? Yeah, that's scary. :eyes:

[mbperrin]

78. Yes, and the dollar stayed put as well.

BOOGA BOOGA be afraid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm like you - I haven't seen a chunk of anything yet, except the hasty BULLSHIT they're concocting to get me to the exits.

[TankLV]

79. They've been sayin' that for almost TWO WEEKS now, and it STILL hasn't happened...

I say it's a SCAM - the biggest scam bush* has ever pulled...

NO BAILOUT!

Just like and alcoholic, the stupid fucks who brought this on must HIT BOTTOM in order to recover.

"Rescuing" them will only postpone the inevitable CRASH and MAKE THINGS WORSE in the longterm...

[daleo]

81. Bailout failure will cause a financial atomic blast

There will be a fiscal mushroom cloud, and market firestorm and other scary things, so give all your money to the nice men who caused it in the first place.

[Peterbrownie]

82. Bingo

Should we give billions to irresponsible rich men in the future? It seems so.

[wordpix]

91. rofl! really funny, lol

:rofl: lol

[ShortnFiery]

83. Hey, the crash is coming anyway. This "drop in a bucket" is just a parting kiss to Wall Street.

Damn them, no they can't have my hard earned tax dollars. Wall Street has already stolen enough from the taxpayer. No bid contracts? I hate these horrid excuses for humanity, i.e., corporate crones - and that includes any democrat who votes for this SCAM.

[roamer65]

84. Massive worldwide gov't borrowing and currency creation will delay the big crash.

It will come around 2010, though, in the form of a massive hyperinflationary depression.

[wordpix]

89. how about our BushCo $10 trillion debt causing a crash? Always a diversion

with this gang of thieves.

[Zhade]

92. Bailout 'will cause US crash’

Fixed the headline to reflect reality.

[Critters2]

95. Yep. When you're right, you're right. nt

[ShortnFiery]

94. It's going to crash anyway, no need to REWARD the crooks who financially screwed us. eom

[Orsino]

97. Hank Paulson's bailout plan isn't going to be tried.

"Treasury officials" need to keep up.

[hatrack]

101. Riiiiiight, as opposed to what we're seeing now, you mean?

:eyes: