Stranded Galveston residents call in vain for rescues

[kurth_]

Source: Houston Chronicle

Stranded Galveston residents call in vain for rescues
Galveston, Harris call curfews to protect evacuees' homes
By DANE SCHILLER, KEVIN MORAN and MIKE TOLSON Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle
Sept. 12, 2008, 10:55PM

As Hurricane Ike pushed a swelling surge onto Galveston Island tonight, many Galveston residents who ignored a mandatory evacuation order phoned for rescues to no avail because emergency workers were called off the streets, officials said.

Help wasn't expected until after dangerous storm conditions subsided.

"We don't know what we're going to find tomorrow," said the city's mayor, Lyda Ann Thomas. "We hope we'll find that the people who didn't leave here are alive and well."

City Manager Steve LeBlanc went so far as to ask the media not to photograph "certain things" in the aftermath, referring to the possibility of dead bodies.



Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5998538.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Doesn't it burn you up?

This is the City Manager: "City Manager Steve LeBlanc went so far as to ask the media not to photograph "certain things" in the aftermath, referring to the possibility of dead bodies."

Of course not. It might reflect badly upon the GOP, which consistently puts Americans in harm's way.

[Bubbha Jo]

5. Thought I like blaming the GOP for a lot of things

anyone who stayed after a mandatory evcuation mentioned possible death can't expect rescue personnel to die getting to them during this storm.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. Hurricane Ike did a LOT of damage in Cuba......

Cuba is an EXTREMELY poor nation. I don't need to emphasize that. However, only 4 people died in Cuba due to Hurricane Ike, tho it encompassed and nearly obliterated the entire length of the country. WHY?

I'll tell you why. Because the government and army ENSURE that everyone is evacuated. They PLACE people. They actually physically evacuate them. Here? Here they're left to die, float, drown, whatever. If countless die in this, as in N.O., it will not be because they were stupid, or they were lazy. It will be because the U.S. government did not take matters into its hands and ensure the complete evacuation of people.

[paulk]

9. and if the US government went in and forcibly removed people

against their will -

you'd complain about that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. I'm not so sure. Generally, in the U.S. the ones that die are the ones that don't have the money .

to evacuate. The U.S. needs to evacuate people. I thought the military and national guard had to protect the well being of Americans? I just don't understand leaving the poor and helpless to die because the U.S. govt. has no method in place for evacuating people. Doesn't make sense at all.

[dysfunctional press]

14. that's not the case with the people who CHOSE to stay in galveston.

from what i understand- all the people who wanted out- no matter how indigent, were evacuated.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. Hmm... who all stayed behind? The very ill? The very old? nt

[heliarc]

33. Thank you... this is exactly the right response to that sort of idiocy.

"pull yourself up by your bootstraps" my a$$

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. Thank you. The pull yourself up by your bootstraps is bullshit

The helpless MUST be evacuated. Everything else is murder.

[emilyg]

41. They evacuated the very ill.

[kirby]

48. Also the very dumb...

Many people simply said, I'll take my chances. I'll wait it out. I've survived these before so I can survive this one.

[Suich]

54. Some didn't like the traffic jams before Rita hit and decided to stay.

Others thought they could ride it out. Buses were made available for those who needed transportation.

[ensho]

90. yes, I have a friend whose ill brother died on the road during Rita

traffic was horrible

[barbtries]

72. i think there was a backlash from the Rita evacuation

people spent 12 and 14 hours on the road. i've been watching the coverage all night long and that is definitely a factor. and again as with katrina you're talking about people who've been through all the hurricanes over the year. overconfidence in their ability to withstand the storm. i don't know the demographics of galveston. from the local coverage i was watching though, i know that a lot of the people plainly did not believe it would be that bad.

and again, i just hope they're okay.

[snappyturtle]

98. I think the real lesson learned from Rita is that there is no way to

remove everyone from the danger zone. They get those out who are are the biggest threat of being injured or killed. Rita was a disaster. Consequently, as I understand it from local San Antonio tv, was that certain zip codes were told to evacuate. The rest would have to ride it out even though they're still not out of harm's way. Case in point....my mother-in-law relocated from north Houston to her one daughter's home in Spring,TX about ten miles north. We finally got a hold of them an hour ago and the home in Spring is surrounded with fallen big pines to the point they cannot get out of the house. If they open a window to get some air (no ac because they are out of power) it rains in too much. A tree broke off too and fell across my sister-in-law's new car and broke the wind shield...they could see that much. The were lucky the trees didn't fall through the house. The mother-in-law's house has the carport wrapped around the front of the house blocking the front door and the big trees in the backyard are all down. One of my brother-in-law's is a Houston cop and he checked it out the best he could. Others in the family just have fences and trees down....but it's still raining. They told us Galveston is bad. I was surprised when we went to Galveston how small the island is; it's just a barrier island. I was there in a motorhome ONCE in a normal type thunderstorm and that was scary enough for me. Thank God for the seawall.

Of course Governor Perry was right in there helping: excused evacuees in hotels they don't have to pay state sales tax! whoopee!

[barbtries]

122. wow

i'm glad nobody was hurt. been out registering voters for obama's campaign; gotta go check the latest news on ike and on the train wreck

[jayfish]

75. There Are Threads IN GD About The ID10T's Who Stayed Behind.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3983184&mesg_id=3983184

This is not Katrina.

Jay

[Dreamer Tatum]

86. KHOU showed plenty of JACKASSES who thought it was cool and funny to stay

I hope those people found Sharpies.

[Honeycombe8]

142. No. Anyone who needed help was bussed out for free. Ill, elderly, poor. nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

146. Not according to this woman

Winters, on the other hand, had tried everything to get out before Ike hit. The native Galvestonian has been registered for special assistance for the last five years, she said, but no one came to the retirement community on 61st to help her and her cat escape.

Increasingly desperate as forecasters and government officials warned of certain death for coastal residents who remained in Ike's path, Winters spent the last few days on the phone, trying to find someone who could help her out of her first-floor apartment. She called 311, 211, 911 and the number for the city's Emergency Management Center. But she was still waiting at 8 p.m. Friday, when all rescue attempts ceased. That's when police, EMS and firefighters returned to the San Luis hotel, where they bunkered down with city officials and journalists.

Winters parked herself in front of the TV, switching between three networks and the Weather Channel until the power went out. Then she turned on her battery-powered radio and went to the bedroom to lie down. She woke up later with water trickling on her toes.

More...
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6000366.html


DU discussion on this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3996995

[heliarc]

39. Are you certain?

Because while I'm sure people learned a lot from Katrina, part of the problem there was that the City of New Orleans had outsourced evacuation preparations to Private contractors... who did not have the resources on hand -- not enough busses or helicopters to-- evacuate the sick and those in nursing homes. I can't say we know yet what the aftermath will prove about how well they were evacuated. All the Hospitals? All of the Nursing Homes... I really really hope so.

[ohio2007]

93. I noticed that's what NOLA was doing with the hurricane before IKE

As you may recall by reviewing older threads posted here, they started to finger point problems with transportation before the Gustav hurricane strike but luckily, it turned out to be a dud. Problem is, people have objections to being rounded up like cattle and put in box cars which happens to be a mainline of egress.

Hey, people want to go greyhound or better which defeats the purpose of mass evacuation. I'm sure Cubans were moved like cattle but will those stories of evac be told to a US MSM audience ?

hell no

[xxqqqzme]

126. 40% of the population decided to stay

AFTER the mandatory evacuation notice. They were warned there would be NO rescue available. The choice was theirs to make. I would have gotten my ass out. Some people are lousy eciders.

[Mind_your_head]

31. True that.

Personal responsiblity/judgement has its ups and down sides.

(to be clear, this comment has NOTHING to do with people who didn't evacuate b/c they couldn't afford to/didn't have the means/resources to do so....that is another matter entirely).

[Bubbha Jo]

10. And we are free and they are not.....

You have the freedom to be stupid here at the risk of your life in many situations. This is just one of many.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. Freedom to go hungry and die, freedom for your child to die from no health care if you can't get any

I don't know if I'd call that freedom. I think I call that torture.

[Spouting Horn]

81. Yes, Cuba is Freedom

and the USA is torture.

Why don't you go to Cuba, criticize castro, then see how free you are.

[reggie the dog]

102. In Cuba you are cared for

in the USA you are left to your own misery.

If you want to talk about freedom try doing something that is accepted as normal in the Netherlands. Sit outside a cafe and light a joint in the USA, then see how free you are.

[Billy Burnett]

104. Just to be clear - just as one is "cared for", one cares for also.

It's not a one way street.

The Cuban government doesn't care for everything. The local communities form volunteer committees to care for those in greatest need. There are no shortages of volunteers because in Cuba it is perceived as one's civic and patriotic duty to volunteer and help one's fellow citizens.

I've been to Cuba and have observed their actions during a hurricane. Amazing response by almost everyone.

Viva Cuba!

[reggie the dog]

118. I wish it were like that here in France

we are a bit better off than in the USA in ideas of solidarity but I think we are far behind Cuba.

[WriteDown]

106. Which Castro?

The dead one or the new one? :evilgrin:

[Billy Burnett]

57. The logic of a pretzel.

Right. World class healthcare, education, and complete disaster mitigation have to be forced on an unwilling population. :crazy:

Bubbha isn't describing Cuba (I know, I've been there), Bubbha's describing Koolaid world.

[dgibby]

21. It's against the law

It's against the law to forcibly remove residents from their homes, so if they CHOOSE to stay, there is nothing the govt can do about it. My understanding is that every effort was made to evacuate people, providing transportation, including evac for pets as well. I live in the SC lowcountry and we are faced with this choice often. As a nurse, I had to stay during Hugo, but believe me, it was no fun, and we did have problems, but we learned a lot, and things are much better now. We have shelters that take animals and their people, and we have people only shelters. We start evac early, use contraflow on the interstate, get nursing homes and critical patients out early,etc. We're not perfect, but I do think we do well; however, no amount of pleading can convince some people to leave. At that point, it comes down to individual choice, and unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about it.:shrug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. If there's danger, or we're attacked, or there's a fire, one cannot be moved forcibly?

Of course they can. People are moved forcibly from burning buildings all the time.

[silverojo]

52. They should make a law like they have in Arizona

If you're stupid enough to drive into a flooded road, where it was clearly posted that it was flooded and you shouldn't drive there, the driver has to pay for the rescue.

It's ridiculous that taxpayers have to foot the bill for idiots who refuse to listen to warnings. Of course, we need to rescue them--idiots are people, too--but the knowledge that you'll have to pay for the rescue would very likely make people think twice about staying home and having "hurricane parties".

A law of this nature in hurricane-prone states should be made, in light of Hurricane Katrina. As a safeguard, poor or ill people who weren't evacuated should have the right to sue.

This would be the fairest way to protect the defenseless, while punishing the idiots and helping the states recoup their losses.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. So if there's a fire in your house, and the fire dept. forcibly moved you, that's against the law?

I think not.

[cobalt1999]

34. Totally different.

A fire fighter can remove you as you would be considered a danger to the first responders.

In a mandatory evacuation, you are just waiving the rights to having emergency services respond to you.

I can't believe a liberal is arguing for the right of the government to physically remove people from their homes because they believe there might be a danger to the citizen.

I've stayed during mandatory evacuations before. They can't force you out. Learn a little about a topic before spewing B.S about something you have obviously never experienced.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. I can't believe you're arguing that the government should not save someone from

certain death.

[cobalt1999]

40. That I am.

Furthermore, of all the "mandatory evacuations" and large numbers of people who choose to stay it's NOT certain death.

Besides, I have the right to evaluate my situation and probably have better information than any locally elected government official. You might like to give up your rights, just so you feel "safe". I'll determine myself the situation.

There have been times I've evacuated, there have been times I've ignored the mandatory evacuations. Unless this is my ghost typing, it's NOT certain death for most folks.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. Well, as someone mentioned, the pull yourself up by your bootstraps thingie is crap

If there's danger of certain death, people need to be evacuated. Look at who died in N.O.

[cobalt1999]

43. Now you are making no sense at all.

I'm off to bed then.

Just as well, you favor fascist government actions over individual citizens rights, so I have no respect for your opinion.

[ChazII]

132. Cobalt1999, thank you!

That some folk favor gov't actions over individual rights is scary. It is good to read your words.

[AngryOldDem]

133. I second that.

What an amazing exchange.

If people are willing to assume the risk after ignoring all warnings to leave...not much anybody can do about that.

[jberryhill]

78. Yes, under emergency situations people can be forcibly evacuated

What you have here is a prime example of the reason for doing so.

"I ignored one before and lived"

The 'tell' here was when he/she/it said that a firefighter could remove you from your own burning house because "you'd be interfering with a first responder".

Quite often - extremely often - firefighters have to restrain family members from re-entering a burning house to attempt to save a family member or pet who may have already left the house.

[cobalt1999]

79. An approaching hurricane is different than a fire, as already said.

When firefighters are at your house, you or someone trying to re-enter, can endanger the lives of the firefighters.

Deciding yourself to not obey a mandatory evacuation means you give up the right for emergency services.

The government can recommend that you evacuate
The government can withhold emergency services if you don't evacuate.
The government can NOT break down your door and force you to evacuate.

The final decision in a free society is yours.

[jberryhill]

82. You are absolutely wrong, and it's been done before

Hang your junior JD on the wall, pal, I am an attorney.

Yes, the governor can declare a state of emergency pursuant to state law and, yes, have the national guard forcibly evacuate residents.

You do not know what you are talking about.

Back it up with a link or go stuff it.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/537336_2

Governments have ample authority to order and enforce mandatory evacuation orders in a wide variety of disasters. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit has noted: "Almost every state...has adopted statutes providing for the exercise of police powers in the event of an emergency or disaster (such as fire, flood, tornado, or hurricane)."

[cobalt1999]

92. There's your problem. You are an attorney.

You view statements like "A person can't flap their arms and fly" and say, legally, YES THEY CAN!

I never talked about the law. I'm talking real world. In the real world you can't flap your arms and fly, and in the real world, the police don't have the time, inclination, nor manpower to force an evacuation.

You do not know what you are talking about.

[jberryhill]

112. You obviously also don't remember the times this has been done

Not the police - the National Guard.

This used to be done on a regular basis. They'd get out the transport trucks and take people out. What are you, ten years old?

You know why they don't do it now? Because a lot of the guard and their stuff is in Iraq, and they don't want to spend the money.

The "mandatory evacuation" order is given for the purpose of protecting the government from various sorts of liability.

And, guess what, not only is Barack Obama an attorney, but Joe Biden was one of my professors, so stuff the attitude about lawyers too, jack.

[cobalt1999]

116. Name one hurricane where the National Guard forced evacuations.

I've been living on the Gulf Coast since the early 60's. I've been through more hurricanes than you ever will. Not once in 50 years has the National Guard showed up to force an evacuation before a hurricane landed.

I've seen the Guard help get people out who CHOOSE to evacuate; I've never seen the Guard FORCE people out of their homes for a hurricane.

Name one hurricane where the Guard came in and FORCED all the people to evacuate. I won't hold my breath.

[AngryOldDem]

134. Could it be the subtle difference between "mandatory" and "forced"?

I have a friend whose mother lives in the Florida Keys. Whenever a mandatory evacuation is ordered, I ask him if she is planning to get out. Almost always, the answer is no, for various reasons.

To me, who's landlocked, I understand "mandatory" to mean that if you want to leave, a mandatory evacuation connotes that NOW is the time to go, as opposed to forced evacuation, where you have to go no matter what, or face...what? Jail? A fine? Like you, I've never heard of a forced evacuation. If people are willing (or in some cases, stupid) to assume the risk, then they are responsible for what happens to them. One of the many joys of living in a free society -- the long-lost concept of personal responsibility.

There are much better things for first-responders to be doing in the run-up to a hurricane than going door to door and forcing people to leave who have made the free-will decision to stay. Plus, I think the admonition of toe-tagging oneself or leaving a SSN on your person is a very lowkey, yet effective, way to make people think twice before riding a bad one out.

[cobalt1999]

137. It's impossible to FORCIBLY evacuate a population before a hurricane.

There are just too many people who ignore the mandatory evacuation order and there is not enough time between the order and the landfall of the storm. Which is why it's never been done before a hurricane.

Like you said, the officials terms like "Mandatory Evacuation", "Certain Death", "Next of Kin", etc to try and get people to think twice and evacuate voluntarily, but it's never been a FORCED evacuation because it's physically impossible.

[Honeycombe8]

144. Enough was done by the various govts. Warning of "certain" death if you stay....

mandatory evacuation....providing busses for those who need transportation to leave....warning that no rescues would be available for a while afterwards....

When it comes down to it...the government is not a nursemaid and cannot do everything for everyone who won't help him or herself.

Our govt resources were being stretched and assigned at the time of a gigantic hurricane that was immediately following another hurricane in the Gulf...the LAST thing we need to spend our resources on is trying to forcibly remove people from their homes who don't want to go and are not in imminent danger of death.

When it comes down to it...we have free will, and we have choices to make. People who live in Galveston know plenty about hurricanes, incl. the risks.

[paulk]

97. also, it's worth pointing out that the function of the fire dept

is not necessarily saving you or your house - it's ensuring that the fire doesn't spread and burn the whole city down.

Something that happened more than once back before we had organized fire depts.

[reggie the dog]

105. the problem I have with you idea

is this.

How, and by whom, is it determined that an evacuation is to be forced upon people? Should we really be able to force people out? If we put in enough resources to evacuate everyone and some people refuse then that is their right. I personally support the right for people to kill themselves as well as doctor assisted suicide. My view that people should be allowed to harm themselves is the same view that makes me believe that all drugs should be legal for people 18 and over. If someone wants to snort heroin all day long so be it, if you want to drink gasoline go for it. Having said that my desire for solidarity makes me want to have health care as a right so that doctors, psychiatrist, and addiction counselors would be available to all. If, after society has done all they can to aid someone, the person still wants to hurt themselves we should not really do anything to stop them.

[kirby]

46. Fine, just dont expect rescue workers to risk their life to save your ass.

Once things settle down and they can get to you fine, but until then, you are on your own and responsible for yourself.

[cobalt1999]

76. That's the bargain with a mandatory evacutation

The government can strongly recommend that you evacuate. The government can tell you that you are on your own if you stay. However, in a free society, the final decision is yours not some elected official.

[jberryhill]

83. You are uninformed and wrong on the law

This is old case law, and you are absolutely wrong. Since Jacobsen v. US in 1905, courts have consistently recognized temporary emergency powers.

One classic case involved an evacuation in Wyoming. The evacuation was prompted by lethal gas pollution seeping underground beneath a subdivision built near a coal mine. A resident named Miller challenged the power of the county to evacuate the subdivision. He lost, first in the federal district court in Wyoming and then in the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit in Denver. Miller v. Campbell County, 722 F.Supp 687 (D.Wyo. 1989); Miller v. Campbell County, 945 F.2d 348 (10th Cir. 1991). The district court rejected Miller's argument that the county improperly interfered with his liberty to live in the subdivision, and cited the police powers of the county granted by a state civil defense statute. It affirmed that the government's powers "clearly include the power to order an evacuation of an area within the county stricken by a disaster of natural causes such as the seepage of lethal gases." 722 F.Supp. at 693.

Every state has a similar statute.

[cobalt1999]

91. I'm talking real life, not what's on the law books.

Legally, do they have the right to pull me out? Yes.

However, in the real world, they CAN'T. Why? Think about Galveston. 40% of about 60,000 didn't obey the mandatory evacuation, that's about 24,000 people. Who's going to force that many people out of their homes? The local police? How long would it take? What if someone were injured during a forced evacuation?

As a lawyer you are only focused on the law books and in there, yes, they are allowed. CAN they really do it in a real world metropolitan hurricane situation? No. There are plenty of examples where they haven't just because of the logistics.

What REALLY happens (since you are obviously uninformed about the real world), is they go around telling you that you HAVE to get out. They say it's mandatory. They say if you don't that you're on your own. They ask for next of kin information. Then you know what happens, they leave.

[jberryhill]

113. It's been done in real life

They don't do it anymore because the guard is in Iraq, and it costs money.

[cobalt1999]

117. Name the hurricane.

Where the guard FORCED all the people to evacuate.

[cobalt1999]

136. Still waiting for that Hurricane name...

Looks like you are full of it.

[jberryhill]

147. I'm sorry it's not my highest priority

Since I can recall it happening on either the outer banks or islands off Georgia quite a few years ago, but don't have the specifics at my fingertips.

However, I'll mention IKE for now:

"GALVESTON, Texas (AP) — About 250 people who withstood Hurricane Ike on a coastal sliver of land will be forced off it so crews can begin the recovery effort, authorities said Tuesday, vowing to invoke emergency powers to make it happen."

But you have moved the goalposts anyway, since your point was that it was somehow not legal for a forced evacuation in an emergency.

Your comments about practicality and warning are also not well taken. Among other things, there are mandatory wide area evacuation plans required for the licensing of every nuclear power plant in the country.

[cobalt1999]

149. So in other words, you've got no example.

I didn't move the goalposts, you were the one talking legalities, not me. I was the one who told you to get your head OUT of the law books and look at reality. CAN'T doesn't mean it's legally allowed. CAN'T means it can't be done which is why I gave you the arm flapping example.

The original post and all of mine are talking about the impossibility of FORCING an evacuation BEFORE the hurricane due to the number of people and the lack of time.

The best you can do is an example AFTER a hurricane when most people are gone and there is lots of time? LOL

Fail, Fail, and Fail again.

I hope you are better at things that are a priority for you.

[jberryhill]

150. Wildfires move faster than hurricanes

...and you were talking about whether it was legal.

Understanding that my personal memory is not a reference, it's on the long list of things to find, but I do work for a living.

Your larger contradiction is interesting, though. On the one hand, you are proud of your lack of sympathy for folks who didn't leave, but your other point is that there is no practical way for them to have gotten out.

Odd.

[cobalt1999]

153. You seem to have a lack of reading comprehension

For example:

"On the one hand, you are proud of your lack of sympathy for folks who didn't leave, but your other point is that there is no practical way for them to have gotten out."

Simple, where did I say there is "no practical way for them to have gotten out"? I said there is "no practical way a government can FORCE people out". Two different things. You read too much into things that aren't there, that seems to be a recurring problem for you.

So, where did I say there is no practical way for them to have gotten out? I'll make it simple, just give me the post number.

You can't give a hurricane example, you make up things that you ASSUME people mean and then try to debate those assumptions. You give a wildfire example now. :rofl:

You obviously don't know when to quit while losing.

Like I said, you better focus on things you know something about.

[depakid]

108. You might want to get the cites right

The case you cited was an entrapment case from 1992....

[jberryhill]

114. Which one

Miller v. Campbell County is a forced evacuation case.

[depakid]

119. You were probably looking for the vaccination case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

[jberryhill]

148. Same line of cases...

...all dealing with emergency restrictions on 14th amendment liberty interests. Vaccination, quarantine, curfew, evacuation, etc.

[1monster]

89. Well, if it is legal for police to tear gas and rubber bullet peaceful protesters from

our streets, then removing idiots from their homes that are in the direct path of a killer hurricane is not problematical...

[reggie the dog]

103. were there busses for the poor?

If there were resources put in place to evacuate everyone who wanted to evacuate then I agree with you 100 percent that those who do not want to leave should not be forced to leave. I wish we could keep that kind of freedom and have access to the possibility to evacuate like they do in Cuba, as well as access to health care and education like they do in Cuba, with access to salaries like we have in the USA.

[Le Taz Hot]

66. Terry Schiavo (sp?) anyone?

See how that slippery slope thing works now?

Re: "I can't believe you're arguing that the government should not save someone from death"

[ingac70]

29. Cuba does FORCE the evacuations.

People are told if they don't do as they are told, they are on their own. The folks in Galveston are still there by choice.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Of course they force them. And while in N.O. people died drowned, by droves....

in Cuba, despite a hurricane of this savagery, only 4 died, and through electrocution because lines had fallen.

[clixtox]

77. Just curious if you have a link to the info about "of course they force them"

Perhaps you have been there yourself and you are reporting from your own experience....

Down thread this allegation is refuted by another DU poster. Just saying...

It turns out that there isn't any difference between the "mandatory evacuations" in Cuba or here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

124. Pardon? nt

[clixtox]

131. Is my post confusing...

I responded to your post where you assert, without attribution, the provocative idea that in Cuba the residents in the path of a hurricane are forcibly removed if they do not flee voluntarily. Did I misconstrue your post...

Perhaps you were being sarcastic in your reply to the previous post...

I asked before under the head, <Just curious if you have a link to the info about "of course they force them">

Perhaps you have been there (Cuba) yourself and you are reporting from your own experience....

Down thread this allegation is refuted by another DU poster. Just saying...

It turns out that there isn't any difference between the "mandatory evacuations" in Cuba or here.

[Billy Burnett]

56. Oh please. NONSENSE.

I've been in Cuba during a hurricane, and no one is forced.

Some of the killed and injured in Cuba were people who didn't evacuate.

Deadly Ike smashes Cuba
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVWjsPEiqe1tEu2mhBIRaxxGi8owD932PQD80

Evacuations are not mandatory in Cuba except for pregnant women and small children.

[watrwefitinfor]

61. Thanks for your post., Billy Burnett.

Unfortunately, sometimes reality and commonsense don't get very far at DU. This seems to be one of those times. Also a good excuse for the irrational Cuba haters to come out of the woodwork. Funny, that.

Wat

[aquart]

37. Thank you. Galveston ducked, dodged and belittled Ike.

Why should the people take evacuation seriously?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. :( I guess they cannot. nt

[Billy Burnett]

55. Cuba does it by community organizing so that everyone can evacuate.

Despite the Cubaphobic bullshit posted on this thread by DU Cuba "experts" who have never set foot on the island, no one is forced to evacuate in Cuba, but 99% do out of love and respect for each other. Everyone from every community pitches in to help evacuate or provide safe shelter. It is a true culture of life.

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/emergencies/2004_tsunami/background/cubalessons

Oxfam America recently studied the experience of Cuba in its development of disaster prevention and mitigation programs. Situated in the Caribbean Sea, Cuba frequently stands in the way of serious hurricanes. While its neighbors are battered, losing lives and property, Cuba is unusually good at withstanding these calamities, and suffers much fewer dead.

Oxfam’s report, entitled Weathering the Storm: Lessons in Risk Reduction in Cuba cites a number of attributes of Cuba’s risk reduction program that can be applied by other countries. Three in particular are transferable to Asia and other regions:

Disaster Preparedness: Cuba was especially good at mobilizing entire communities to develop their own disaster preparations. This involves mapping out vulnerable areas of the community, creating emergency plans, and actually simulating emergencies so people can practice evacuations and other measures designed to save lives. When disaster strikes, people know what to do.

Commitment of Resources: Cuba’s strong central government prioritizes resources for its civil defense department. This helps the country to build up a common understanding of the importance of saving lives, and the citizens trust that their contributions to the government are well used for this purpose. Their collaboration on developing emergency plans helped build confidence in the government, so people trust in the plan they helped develop.

Communications: The communications system for emergencies in Cuba builds on local resources. Using local radio stations and other media to issue warnings on potential hazards also reinforces the disaster preparations. Since the local population is already involved in mapping risks and creating emergency plans, they are more inclined to act on emergency bulletins. Good communications, packaged simply, and built on existing, commonly used resources, is another way to build trust in disaster preparations.

Cuba is a unique example. There is a strong central government committed to protecting all its citizens, even the poorest and most isolated who are typically the most at risk. The most common natural disaster in Cuba is a hurricane, a threat visible for days and even weeks in advance. Yet building a culture of disaster preparedness, and involving local communities in mitigating risks, are strategies that can be applied in many other places, regardless of how rich or poor a country might be.

[Trajan]

58. Its not fair to make that comparison ....

Cuba was a different experience in a different environment ....

I would never praise the GOP idiots who run things in Texas, and they could have done better, but EVERYONE KNEW Ike was coming, for nearly a week ....

Those who stayed of their own choice ..... Well ? .... WTF should anyone do ? .... arrest them ?

Somewhere, at sometime, people have to take personal responsibility IF they can .... If they chose to stay against the evacuation order, then that is their fault ....

Man is the Superman .... and must take responsibility for his extraordinary freedom to act ... or not ....

[DeltaLitProf]

65. But this country would never accept a forcible evacuation policy

. . . tragic though the consequences are. We chose a government that respects human freedom (at least nominally) and unfortunately many do stupid things with that freedom. That's the unfortunate but necessary cost of it.

[jberryhill]

85. Bull - We do accept it, and it is legal

Miller v. Campbell County, 945 F.2d 348 (10th Cir. 1991)

Post a link to a case saying otherwise.

[bean fidhleir]

135. "We chose a government that respects human freedom (at least nominally)"

Does the "nominally" refer to "chose" or "respects"?

I hope it refers to "chose", because the government doesn't respect human freedom even nominally. Evidence: the drugs war, the "patriot" act, the repeated and consistent violation of even our enumerated rights, and on and on.

[JeanGrey]

69. WE do that too! But our people are allowed to say NO.

That is the difference. In Cuba there is no NO.

[jberryhill]

88. Sorry, but the governor can use emergency powers to enforce evacuations

Same as temporary curfews.

[JeanGrey]

96. You cannot FORCE anyone.

At first light, it was unclear how many may have perished, and authorities mobilized for a huge search-and-rescue operation to reach the more than 100,000 people who ignored warnings that any attempt to ride the storm out could bring "certain death."

"The unfortunate truth is we're going to have to go in ... and put our people in the tough situation to save people who did not choose wisely. We'll probably do the largest search-and-rescue operation that's ever been conducted in the state of Texas," said Andrew Barlow, spokesman for Gov. Rick Perry.

[jberryhill]

115. You can, and it's been done

It used to be more common than it is now.

[JeanGrey]

138. When? What Hurricane?

[Courtesy Flush]

70. You have it at least partly wrong

There's no way you can force the entire population to evacuate. I agree that buses and other transportation need to be offered to those without means, but many people refuse to evacuate for storms. I'm not talking about poor people. People from all walks of life refuse to leave. You can't knock people's doors down and drag them out of their houses. People stay because they choose to. Many of the people who call for rescue are those who made a conscious decision to ride out the storm, despite having the means to evacuate.

[bvar22]

99. You really haven't thought this through.

The "government" forcibly forcing people out of their homes?

What our government SHOULD do is provide FREE quality/comfortable transportation, housing, and care for everyone in an Evacuation area.
If someone says "NO"....they are on their own.

[JonQ]

121. So you are saying

the army should have been sent in to forcibly drive people from their homes? What if they refuse, shoot them?

I'd say the government has the obligation to warn people appropriately, and help any who want to leave but are unable to do so on their own. But if you were warned, and had the opportunity to leave, but didn't, then whatever happens is on your head. I don't think we should risk the lives of emergency personnel to help those who refused to help themselves.

Rescue these idiots, sure. But don't put any personnel at risk, and do it after everyone else is taken care of.

[marshall]

123. All governments control the media to some extent, Cuba is no exception

I wouldn't trust what we hear out of Cuba anymore than I trust what I hear from here.

[Jawja]

67. Self Delete

[jazzjunkysue]

128. Yep. And think of the children who's idiot parents trapped them in there.

I'd like to see a law passed about refusing to evacuate children having some kind of consequence.

I don't know what it would be, but, there should be some kind of attempt to protect children from their moronic parents.

[BobbyZimmerman]

129. well said

[Honeycombe8]

141. Actually, the warning said those who stayed would face "certain" death and there would be no rescues

possible for a while.

This one is not the government's fault, it seems. One guy I read interviewed on Friday said he was staying because (get this)..."it's only water, man." Well, there you go. Stupid is as stupid does.

[yardwork]

19. Isn't the Galveston mayor a Democrat? She ordered the evacuation too late.

I'm certainly not defending the Bush administration, but it looks like bipartisan stupidity this time.

[ClarkUSA]

25. No one is saying that but you. Why are you attacking the Democratic mayor of Galveston?

It's not her fault that 40% of Galveston residents are too foolish that they refused to leave:

'Frantic Galveston officials opened a shelter at a high school as more and more residents began to request help, Steve LeBlanc, the city manager, said in a televised interview late in the afternoon. “It’s unfortunate that the warning we sent — the mayor’s mandatory evacuation — was not heeded,” Mr. LeBlanc said, adding that there was almost 100 percent compliance during Hurricane Rita.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/us/13ike.html?hp

[yardwork]

49. As recently as three days ago the mayor was saying it would be fine, the seawalls would hold, etc.

She didn't call the mandatory evacuation until Thursday.

[halobeam]

50. Weds. was voluntary evac.

I thought this morning was the first mandatory evac., not yesterday. I'm going to have to check that.

Still, not enough time. I agree with you.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

32. Maybe, just maybe, it would be more respectful of the dead

not to broadcast photos of their bodies on TV 24/7 for a week straight.

But yeah, I'm sure he just asked them to do that to make himself look better. :eyes:

[fasttense]

63. Yes, it burns me up how casually they censor the media.

When you go into court they make you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If a court needs the whole truth to make a competent decision, then don't we the people need the whole truth?

But from reading your posts it sounds like the people who stayed behind didn't trust the local government to make the call, nor did they trust the evacuation plans. Maybe if instead of contracting evacuation procedures and plans out, the local government got people in the community to develop the plans and practice the plans, then people would trust the warnings to evacuate.

[JeanGrey]

68. HOW DOES IT reflect badly on anyone but the fools who

stayed? I don't get this................

[scot]

127. Absolutely. The GOP has to stop ordering up these storms.

The fact that the told these people to stay put and not worry about anything and now won't rescue them.....I'm beyond words.

[wordpix]

151. what burns me is people are allowed to build on barrier islands & coastal surge zones

and then when their houses are blown away, they expect Uncle Sam--- you and I--- to bail them out and rebuild their homes, not to mention provide emergency housing, food, etc. when they're in transition.

I can just about pay for my own home and one kid to go to college, much less bail out those who choose to build on barrier islands that ought to be preserved. Go ahead, flame away, but there has to be an end to the endless bailouts, whether it's for people building where they shouldn't or corporate greedmongers. :grr:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. An independent spirit is sometimes quite admirable.

Other times, it is quite strange and even tragic.

[iamjoy]

8. Oh, Wait For The Spin

When the poor African Americans didn't leave New Orleans before Katrina, they were idiots for ignoring the mandatory evacuation order.
When wealthy, white people stay put, they have courage and resilience.

[yardwork]

20. I doubt many wealthy people stayed in Galveston. There are a lot of poor minorities there.

I imagine that the people with cars left; the others remained behind because they had no way to get out.

[uppityperson]

3. wishing the best for all and please take pictures of everything.

At some point, I am sure they will be wanted. Be respectful, but photo everything. I wonder if FEMA will show up.

[sazemisery]

4. Please don't chronicle the reality of the situation with....

photographic evidence. It would damage the American psyche.


:sarcasm:

[tularetom]

7. I have 3 dogs 5 cats and 2 horse-if for some reason I couldn't get them out

you couldn't get me out either. I try not to be too judgmental in cases like this.

[Doremus]

87. Me too. Unfortuately not all pet owners care enough to make proper

arrangements for their animals. There was a photo yesterday on one of the MSM websites of 2 small dogs left in their back yard when the owners got the hell out of Dodge. This was early in the day and they were already knee deep in water.

I still can't get the image out of my mind. :cry: :cry:

[cyr330]

12. I hope they provided the means to get out.

A lot of people probably didn't have the $$ to get out of town. I wonder if the city provided transportation?

[dysfunctional press]

15. yes, they did. the only people that stayed CHOSE to do so...

and deserve what they get.

[clixtox]

74. They get what they get...

whether they "deserve" it or not.

Pretty high horse you're riding there cowboy/girl!

[kurth_]

16. More than 1300 buses and 300 ambulances were ordered to the area

Transportation was provided at no charge to anyone who wanted to leave - pets included.

[SCBeeland]

18. It costs nothing to put one foot in front of the other

And start running toward Oklahoma or New Mexico.

[Fran Kubelik]

94. you have got to be kidding me

[uppityperson]

107. nope. Try this one also... People in prison deserve to be there, should drown (paraphrased)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3485510&mesg_id=3486307

[CreekDog]

13. My grandparents decided it wasn't worth evacuating their Vero Beach, FL home because of a hurricane

all the next times however, they gladly evacuated.

they weren't so cocky after they learned their lesson.

[Roland99]

17. Sorry but all I have to say is....

Dumbasses.

[kurth_]

24. Why Do Some People Ignore Evacuation Warnings?

The Holdouts
What motivates some people to ignore evacuation orders and warnings of hurricanes and other disasters? Inside the psychology of the stubborn.
By Catharine Skipp | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Sep 12, 2008 | Updated: 7:26 p.m. ET Sep 12, 2008

...NEWSWEEK's Catharine Skipp spoke to Dr. Irwin Redlener, director of the National Center for Disaster Preparedness and associate dean for public-health advocacy and disaster preparedness at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University. Excerpts:

NEWSWEEK: With the approach of Hurricane Ike and similarly with Hurricane Gustav, we are hearing officials using the phrase "certain death." Why haven't we heard the widespread use of this phrase in the past in connection with dangerous storms?
Irwin Redlener: What we are dealing with now is a greater awareness of the legal potential of natural disasters. Post-9/11, the level of sensitivity about our vulnerability to natural and man-made disasters has been ratcheted up significantly, particularly following Katrina. I think there is a level of awareness around the potential danger of large-scale coastal storms and hurricanes and it has been a wake-up call, and more so after the flagrantly inadequate response to Katrina in 2005. It lit a fire under disaster-preparedness officials. The rhetoric, which we even heard from Mayor Nagin when he was strongly urging people to leave New Orleans before Gustav, is continuing as officials are putting out public messages to residents of the vulnerable coast of Texas. What's behind this is the realization that many, many people electively choose not to comply with official orders of mandatory evacuation and intend to stay in place no matter what the warnings are. Many of these people are putting themselves at an extreme level of risk depending on the trajectory of the hurricane...

Can mandatory evacuation orders be legally enforced?
Theoretically, they could physically remove someone, especially if their remaining would endanger anyone else's safety and especially first responders. But the strategy that officials may use, rather than arresting the recalcitrant citizen, is to make it very clear—absolutely clear—that rescue and response services may not be available. In essence, if you don't comply with evacuation orders, you are in effect waiving your right to get rescue and response if you need it. I think we will see much more of that strategy being deployed than officials removing people that don't want to go.

What kind of person stays?
I heard an interview this morning on NPR with someone who was electing to stay in Galveston. This was a guy, his family and extended family, that were moving into a masonary building to ride it out. They are strong-willed, independent individuals who I think relish the idea of riding out something most of us would consider to be too dangerous to remain. However, this is an evacuation with several days' warning.
We just did a study on evacuations under scenarios of disasters without warnings. We are very concerned about disasters that occur without warning when we have to do evacuations in real-time—in essence, immediate—for example, an earthquake or a terrorist nuclear attack. We found about two thirds of people with children would not comply with official orders to evacuate until and unless they were able to retrieve their children from school or day care. If we have two thirds of the population with children that would not comply, what we would have is evacuation chaos and an absolute breakdown of disaster response in circumstances that provided no warning. Under those circumstances, unless we got much better at having well-developed disaster plans that parents were comfortable with, we can anticipate extreme chaos as public officials would be unable to stop parents determined to get their kids...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/158660

[Roland99]

30. They've had at least 48 hours' notice.

[jazzjunkysue]

130. As a teacher, I have to agree with this. The parents come in for all small events.

Things that really don't matter, like, a copy-cat bomb scare. The parents are there, even though they know it's a copy of a fake bomb scare from the school down the road the day before.

We'll have everyone outside, safe and sound, waiting for the busses, and the parents come anyway, knowing that all the teachers are out there with the kids and everything is fine.

We could try to convince them that we'd get them home on busses faster, but that would be a waste of breath, Instead, they'll all come to school at it will take even longer.

Parents came in to get kids on 9/11 even though we were an hour's drive from the towers. Teachers rode busses to bus stops just to make sure the kids were all met by an adult. It worked beautifully, but, you'll never convince parents to let us do it in an organized way.

[Triana]

35. "ignored a mandatory evacuation order"

I have little sympathy. CERTAIN DEATH would result - they were told. They ignored...

[jedex]

47. Too bad

:( What the hell did they expect? They were warned. What is the government supposed to do? Wipe their asses too?

[pop goes the weasel]

51. it's sort of a toss-up

Until Thursday, Ike was predicted to hit somewhere between Port Lavaca and Corpus. A mandatory evacuation notice did go out to all Texans living along the coast, but, as anyone with a map can tell, that is a hella lotta territory. No one seriously expected anyone but the most frail to begin evacuation until Friday. And thus, my elderly relatives hightailed it to Central Texas Wednesday, but my nephew and his family simply drew up their plans and waited to find out if they would be hit. As it turned out, they will be safe where they are, but what if they weren't? Would they be able to get the seven of them, and all their dogs, to safety once the mass exodus began? They've got transportation and family ready to take them in, but the logistics still make it all very difficult. And working class people--not poor, but with nothing in savings--can't just be taking time off from work because something "might" go wrong. The only people who can dare to take off early either aren't working or are fabulously well to do.

So the folks who stayed--most I'm sure just waited too long to make their move. I am more concerned about the 1000 inmates in Galveston's jail. They had no choice. There needs to be some special dispensation for inmates in non-felony cases to be allowed out on their own recognizance during disasters, so that authorities can make arrangements for the much smaller number of inmates they don't dare release under any circumstances. Jails are full of people who just forgot to pay a speeding ticket, and that shouldn't come with a death sentence.

[Trajan]

59. I have been watching news reports of Ike since last weekend ....

The predicted path brought it into South Texas ..... Given the historic vulnerabilities of the Galveston area to these events ... ANY belief that such a storm was coming near that area should have prompted EVERYONE to get ready to leave .... A landing in Corpus Christi would still place Galveston in jeopardy, especially since it would still catch the worst part of the surge and water pile ....

I object to the governments NOT being more forceful, and for maybe not acting quickly enough ... But people have to be proactive, and get ready to leave IF they had the information that has been available for days ....

Many people choose to stay, and it is a huge blunder ... but it is their blunder ....

They should have left this morning at the latest ....

[dchill]

125. They had no choice.

There is an excellent diary on this shameful episode on dailykos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/13/195653/918/140/597874

Despite mandatory evacuation order, the Sheriff refused to evacuate at least 1000, possibly up to 1300 inmates at the Galveston County Jail.

What is known is that the Galveston historic district, where the jail is located, flooded up to 7 feet, according to CNN.

State officials aren't talking. As of this morning, Governor Perry's spokesperson said she "did not know about any Ike-related deaths and did not have any information about inmates at a jail on Galveston that was not evacuated."

If you can, rec it up!

[revolve]

53. Natural Selection NT/

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fran Kubelik]

95. that is disgusting

[Loudmxr]

62. Residents call in Vain.. maybe they should call a different town.

[northernlights]

64. people who want to evacuate

and don't have the means should be provided the means for themselves and their animals. The prisoners should have been evacuated. Period. If there is a mandatory evacuation, then any employer who tries to penalize an employee for following it should be penalized. In this case, seems like there's a good chance they won't have much of a business left so that might be punishment enough.

People who chose to stay are paying the consequences for their choice. They don't get a lot of sympathy from me. Unfortunately their children and animals have to pay as well. That pisses me off to no end.

[barbtries]

71. the media should photograph everything

the people have a right to know.

i hope they're okay. i just hope they're okay.

[kurth_]

73. In Streets of Galveston, the Feel of a Haunted House

September 14, 2008
In Galveston, the Feel of a Haunted House
By IAN URBINA

GALVESTON, Tex. —The eye of Hurricane Ike arrived here at 2:10 a.m. A deafening howl suddenly disappeared, and an eerie silence woke up a curious few who ventured out onto the streets. With winds that raged at more than 110 miles per hour hammering the barrier island most of the night and delivering storm surges topping 15 feet, the Gulf waters came all the way up to and through the bottom floors of the restaurants and hotels that used to sit several hundred feet from the water’s edge.

But for an hour or so, those winds and rains suddenly stopped and the city took on the feel of a haunted house. The island was covered mostly in darkness as more than 1.4 million people’s homes in the region were without power. The only lights to be seen came from the strobes of several building’s fire alarms. Some sections of the east end of the island glowed orange from house fires. At the cemetery, grave statues of saints and white tombstones barely stuck their heads above muddy waters.

The crashing waves and the echoes of car alarms were the only sounds. A thick smell of leaking gas permeated some blocks. One man walking along 40th street appeared from the thick fog. Declining to give his name because the police had imposed a curfew and he was not supposed to be out on the streets, he observed that an odd mix of peace and danger seemed to loom over the island...

Fifty people had been evacuated from around the island throughout the night, emergency officials said. About 260 people were sheltering at Ball High School.

Out on the streets, things were bizarrely askew in that way that only big storms can accomplish. A boat sat in the middle of a road near 49th Street, even though no water seemed to flow down the street. On 53rd Street, four frogs gathered on a small island in the middle of a flooded section of the road. White egrets walked along the sidewalk, as if confused...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/14galveston.html

[AgadorSparticus]

80. superman syndrome. they think they are invincible. they have no idea what the

reality of destruction and death looks like. And I find many people live in a glamorized fantasy about death. They think that they will go out in a "blaze of glory" or that death in general is peachier than what it is. They throw life away like it means nothing.

These people that chose to stay have every right to do so. Why the hell anyone would suggest physical removal is just beyond me. Last I checked this is still a free country.

This isn't about pulling yourself up from your bootstraps. It is about letting go of your ego and growing up.

[jberryhill]

84. The Law Permits Forcible Evacuation

I find it fascinating how many people do not understand that, and provide absolutely no citation to relevant case law.

Miller v. Campbell County, 945 F.2d 348 (10th Cir. 1991)

[Billy Burnett]

100. Welcome to the new and improved DU.

Certainly not the good ol' days here anymore.

:hi:

[4lbs]

101. Sorry, but I have a tough time feeling much sympathy for those that CHOSE to stay.

1.) It was a mandatory evacuation. Anyone care to explain the definition of "mandatory" ?

2.) They had a lot of time to prepare, compared to other 'natural disasters'. Even if it was just 48 - 72 hours, and not 5 to 7 days, that's still more than people would be given in say, an earthquake, tornado, or fire.

3.) Living in Southern California, I've experienced last year's wildfires that scorched most of Southern California and also the forests.

In those fires, hundreds of thousands of people that were in the line of fire (literally), 99% of them, evacuated in just 24 hours notice, sometimes just 12 hours. A wildfire that consumes 1000s of acres per hour can't be ridden out like a hurricane. So, mandatory has a little more meaning.

Most of these people were put up in a football stadium, or at various makeshift shelters at high schools. Classes were cancelled for at least 4 days while this occurred.

I witnessed, with my own eyes, locally, how hundreds of thousands evacuated from wildfires with just 12 to 24 hours notice, and thousands returned to nothing, as their homes and 95% of their possessions burned up.

So, people in the paths of hurricanes still have at least triple the time to prepare, and thus to evacuate. Yet, they chose not to. Why not have them PAY for their own rescue since they CHOSE to ignore the mandatory evacuation?

[ohio2007]

109. all the hurricane coverage you need and they had before the IKE

http://www.maroonspoon.com/wx/ike.html

and those 'left behind' will belly ache they had no warning or are going to be caught live looting

[bvar22]

110. Apples & Oranges, SurferBoy.

What is your guess at the median income of those who live in the Hollywood Hills?

I remember watching last year as CNN interviewed an evacuee whose main problem was not being able to find someone to drive his 2nd BMW out of the fire zone.

How many people would have the means to evacuate South Central?

[4lbs]

120. Quite a few I would believe.

How many people would have the means to evacuate South Central?


****************************


Ummm... If there's a fire coming at you, burning everything in it's path, I would think people would be running as fast as they could, even on foot.

Remember, many of the people who evacuated quite literally could leave with just the clothes on their backs and maybe a few possessions they could hastily throw into boxes and carry with them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

140. 1300 buses and 300 ambulances.

I don't think means is an issue here.

[Honeycombe8]

145. Income has nothing to do w/evacuation of Galveston. I live nearby. Whadya wanna know? nt

[nolabels]

111. Moral of the story, never get arrested in any place near sea level

That warning goes double for states that are controlled by republicans

[IndianaGreen]

139. How come Jesus didn't come to their rescue?

Their current tragedy notwithstanding, many of these folks vote GOP and hate LGBTs because they think that's what Jesus wants them to do. Where is their god now?

[Crowman1979]

143. I think these were the people Bill Hicks warned us about.

[wordpix]

152. why is no one talking about the idiocy of building on a barrier island, as well as

in coastal surge zones?

Not only do I dislike seeing homes sitting on the water's edge when I take my strolls on the beach but it is downright insane that the US and local governments allow homes, towns and cities to be built within the surge zone. And then, people EXPECT US taxpayers to bail them out when their homes and businesses are blown away by the inevitable storms.

Rest assured, they will be demanding whatever rebuilding money their insurance companies won't pay for, pronto.

[Nihil]

154. It seems to be a taboo subject ...

... similar to talking about the dumb shits who rebuild in flood plains
or below sea level after the folly of doing so has been repeatedly proven.

:shrug: