Russia to send naval fleet to Venezuela

[bemildred]

Source: AFP

CARACAS • President Hugo Chavez said yesterday that Russian President Dimitri Medvedev wants to send a Russian naval fleet to visit Venezuela.

"Russia has informed us they intend to visit Venezuela, that is, the intention that a Russian fleet should come to the Caribbean," Chavez said on his weekly radio programme.

"I told the president (Medvedev), 'If you're coming to the Caribbean, we'll welcome you,'" Chavez said, adding that the Russian naval fleet would pay "a friendly and working" visit to Venezuela. Under leftist President Chavez, Venezuela has been seeking closer relations with Moscow, in part to buy military hardware, including 24 Russian Sukhoi fighter jets recently delivered, after Washington refused to supply spare parts for the F-16 jets it sold Venezuela in the 1980s.


Read more: http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Americas&month=August2008&file=World_News2008081872441.xml

---

Also this from yesterday:

Chavez calls Georgia's leader a US 'puppet'

CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says he considers Georgia's leader a "puppet" of Washington and is backing Russia in its conflict with the former Soviet republic.

Chavez said Sunday on his weekly broadcast show that the Russians "did what they had to do" in response to what he called a military provocation in the Georgian province of South Ossetia.

Chavez accused Washington of sparking the conflict, saying Georgia's troops were armed and trained by the United States. He did not elaborate, but added that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is "nothing but a puppet of the U.S. empire."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_georgia_russia

[newfie11]

1. when we ever learn to quit trying to rule the world (Chavez calls Georgia's leader a US 'puppet')

This of course will not be broadcast by the media.

[Kokonoe]

14. The media will be doing us a favor. nt

:patriot:Covering For Shrimp:patriot:

[peacetalksforall]

2. If you want your jets and the U.S. refuses to sell the parts to you , do you just let it go or

do you go elsewhere? Interesting timing. Somewhat clever. The path of the naval ships is well out of the bounds of the U.S. territorial waters. Let's see what Ms Liar and the Mister Liars say about this. They will ask the media to make it sound like Venezuela is as close as Cuba for those who don't know their geography and and never look at maps.

[maddezmom]

3. oh boy

Can't wait to hear what McCain will say about this development.

[bemildred]

4. Yeah, I forgot the popcorn.

Should get some excellent examples of bluster in response. We have the beginnings of a global dick-waving contest here.
:popcorn:

[maddezmom]

5. might be time to break down and get one of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQtw-NHRS4&feature=related

[bemildred]

11. LOL.

Popcorn bombs! Weapons of Mass Distraction!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. He's gonna need to find a new song. "Barbara Ann" doesn't...

...work very well as "Bomb Venezuela"

Oh... no...

VenezuEEEELLAAAAAA
Get them on their knees
VenezuEEEEELAAAAAA
Begin bombin' please

Apologies to Clapton. Kinda. That song sucks anyway.

[underpants]

32. "defeat them!"

(fundie crowd roars approval)

HE knows how to win wars you know

[seemslikeadream]

6. Friends

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

7. Now THAT'S gonna piss the neocons off big time.

And there ain't one bloody thing they can do about it! :headbang:

[Auggie]

21. Yeah. Though I expect McSame will try to benefit from it

with some tough-talking B.S. Didn't he help draft the Monroe Doctrine?

;)

[WriteDown]

8. I say we use the Russian-Georgian model

and invade now. As many who have defended Russia have said, these are understandable reactions to their invading our sphere of influence.

[Hugabear]

9. You can't possibly be serious, your analogy is piss-poor

"Invading our sphere of influence" - are you part of BushCo?

Russia invaded Georgia as a result of Georgia's attacks on South Ossetia. Your analogy = FAIL.

[WriteDown]

12. No, not serious...

You think that Russia managed to put together that force and battle plan at the drop of a hat? Not likely. This has been in the works forever. Many other posters cited the reason for Russia's action was the U.S.'s coziness with Georgia. Your analogy is flawed as well. Maybe we should have stepped in when Russia attacked Chechnya?

[Hugabear]

18. The Mexican War would be a better analogy

Remember, Texas started off as a "breakaway province" of Mexico.

[AlphaCentauri]

27. Kosovo and Texas are the perfect examples on how we write the rules

for us but not for them, like when the poor people couldn't vote

[pampango]

24. According to NYTimes, Russia had was prepared and ready when the time came.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html?scp=2&sq=russia%20military%20georgia&st=cse

"“They seem to have harnessed all their instruments of national power — military, diplomatic, information — in a very disciplined way,” said one Pentagon official, who like others interviewed for this article disclosed details of the operation under ground rules that called for anonymity. “It appears this was well thought out and planned in advance, and suggests a level of coordination in the Russian government between the military and the other civilian agencies and departments that we are striving for today.”

In fact, Pentagon and military officials say Russia held a major ground exercise in July just north of Georgia’s border, called Caucasus 2008, that played out a chain of events like the one carried out over recent days.

“This exercise was exactly what they executed in Georgia just a few weeks later,” said Dale Herspring, an expert on Russian military affairs at Kansas State University. “This exercise was a complete dress rehearsal.”

Russian commentators have countered that more than 1,000 American military personnel were in Georgia for an exercise last month. But that exercise focused on counterinsurgency operations to prepare a Georgian brigade for duty in Iraq, a different mission from the seizing of territory or denying an aggressor a new stake on the land."

[14thColony]

26. Of course Russia was planning and praying and hoping for an excuse

which begs the questions: why in the %$#@! was Saakashvili stupid enough to GIVE THEM ONE?

[pampango]

29. Great question. Either he is stupid; he thought Russia was bluffing about a military response;

(in which case he is still pretty stupid); he was set up by someone who doesn't care what happens to the Georgian people or military (in which case he is still pretty stupid); nationalism or territorial integrity blinded him (in which case he is still pretty stupid); or he (or someone else) has a master plan and meant to sucker the Russians into attacking to achieve some longer term political goal (to scare other former Soviet states into joining NATO or otherwise getting along better with the West).

But in almost any scenario, he is just pretty stupid.

[Igel]

45. Dead Georgians, that's way.

The S. Ossetian "peacekeepers", undeterred by the Russian "peacemakers", fired a bit of artillery at some Georgian positions. This is not disputed by most.

The Georgians allegedly did nothing, but were shelled again. This wasn't the second shelling, if it happened. These things have been happening straight along, but Russia got to push the "start button" on the stopwatch. We start counting actions only when Russian grants us permission.

Then it's acknowledged that the Georgians moved up a Grad battery and some armor, <1000 men, and they sat there for a few hours. Apparently the Georgians hoped to take out the separatist ministry part of town and communications infrastructure quickly, then block the tunnel. In any event, to stop the shelling from Ossetia. Russians were on the move anywhere from 5-10 minutes before or after the Georgians opened fire--the timing isn't certain, Russia's not saying precisely (in either direction), Georgia claims the Russians acted first.

It was only after putting their troops in motion that the Georgians opened fire and killed the Russians that triggered the Russian troop movements, Russia says. But then the timing is very, very close--minutes between the first bombardment by the Georgians until Russian troops were armed, in uniforms, on their APCs and tanks, on moving into Ossetia. So close that you no longer can really claim innocnce of motive the Russian side. They were ready, and had a plan that took a while to put together--weeks, at least.

Did Kokoity decide that the time was right and knew he'd have to get things moving quickly? After all, the Ossetian ramp-up in ceasefire violations ran in parallel with the drawdown in US forces.

But a day or two before we're authorized to start keeping track of events by Putin, Ossetians killed Georgians.

[davidinalameda]

43. you do know that South Ossetia is part of Georgia

[eridani]

44. The people living there don't want it to be

Just like in Kosovo

[davidinalameda]

52. and did the Georgian government try to exterminate them like the Serbs did in Kosovo

don't think so

[eridani]

59. Yes--as a matter of fact

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia1

To many Russians this vast geopolitical retreat from places which were part of Russia long before the dawn of communist rule brought no bonus in relations with the west. The more Russia drew in its horns, the more Washington and its allies denounced the Kremlin for its imperial ambitions.
Unlike in eastern Europe, for instance, today in breakaway states such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, Russian troops are popular. Vladimir Putin's picture is more widely displayed than that of the South Ossetian president, the former Soviet wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity. The Russians are seen as protectors against a repeat of ethnic cleansing by Georgians.

In 1992, the west backed Eduard Shevardnadze's attempts to reassert Georgia's control over these regions. The then Georgian president's war was a disaster for his nation. It left 300,000 or more refugees "cleansed" by the rebel regions, but for Ossetians and Abkhazians the brutal plundering of the Georgian troops is the most indelible memory.

<snip>

In the Balkans, the west promoted the disintegration of multiethnic Yugoslavia, climaxing with their recognition of Kosovo's independence in February. If a mafia-dominated microstate like Montenegro can get western recognition, why shouldn't flawed, pro-Russian, unrecognised states aspire to independence, too?

Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?

[davidinalameda]

66. let's take a look at this

Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.<21> Many South Ossetians were resettled in uninhabited areas of North Ossetia from which the Ingush had been expelled by Stalin in 1944, leading to conflicts between Ossetians and Ingush over the right of residence in former Ingush territory.

so, 100K Ossetians were driven out along with 23K Georgians

much less than the 300K you are claiming from your article

Georgia didn't have a policy of driving the Ossetians out of the area, did they? the people fled due to the fighting; not due to any official state policy of moving Georgians into the area

Russian imposed a peace on Georgia (nice way to interfere with the internal activities of sovereign nation-sound familiar)

and it was the Ossetians who started bombing Georgian territory proper; the Georgians moved to protect their land

but then again, there are people on this board that would deny any country the right to defend itself against terrorists from outside

[eridani]

70. Bottom line--Ossetians don't want to be part of Georgia

Why would Georgia have any more right to territorial integrity than Yugoslavia?

[TheLastMohican]

73. I do

Check the war in 1993.
Georgians tried twice to exterminate Ossetians in the last 5 years.
We should carefully choose who to support here.

[hogwyld]

60. Not any more

They've been absorbed into Russia, and that's the way it's going to be for a long time to come.

[eridani]

71. And that'ts the way they want it n/t

[Better Believe It]

78. Not If They Leave!

[maddezmom]

10. Invade Venezuela?

You're not serious, right?

[olddad56]

13. the only country left that our government has the capacity to invade is the USA.

[Pavulon]

54. That would be incorrect..

there are plenty of people on active duty not in iraq or afganistan.

No one is invading anything. Now if he fucks off we may just flip his government upside down. Not like the coup we were accused of, but like the real ones where the former leader ends up full of bullet holes.

Suitcases full of money are standing by.

The cold war was not a happy time in latin america.

[IggyReed]

55. ...

"Not like the coup we were accused of"

ACCUSED. Yeah, countless declassified US government documents proving our support is an "accusation". The US being the first, and one of the only, country to recognize the military dictatorship was "accused". The State Department admitting themselves that they funded the coup leaders. The coup plotters thanking on national television RCTV for their help in removing the democratic government with a military dictatorship, more of the same.

Yes, the cold war wasn't a happy time in Latin America and you're a cheer leader for a return to those times. Screw morals, international law, objectivity, this is about the rules of the jungle and force.

[AlphaCentauri]

62. Time to read about our friendly dictators

GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT
Ex-President of Guatemala
"A Christian has to walk around with his Bible and his machine gun," said born-again General Efrain Rios Mont, military ruler of Guatemala from March 1982 to August 1983. Rios Mont was one in a long series of dictators who ran Guatemala after the Dulles brothers and United Fruit, backed by the CIA, decided that elected President Jacob Arbenz held the country "in the grip of a Russian-controlled dictatorship" and overthrew the country's constitutional democracy in 1954. The succession of corrupt military dictators ruled Guatemala for over 30 years, one anti-communist tyrant after another receiving U.S. support, aid, and training.
After the 1982 coup that brought Rios Mont to power, U.S. Ambassador Frederic C. Chapin said Guatemala "has come out of the darkness and into the light." President Reagan claimed Mont was given "a bum rap" by human rights groups, and that he was cleaning up problems inherited from his predecessor, General Romeo Lucas Garcia. Ironically, Garcia had given $500,000 to Reagan's 1980 campaign, and his henchman, Mario Sandoval Alarcon, the "Godfather" of Central American death squads, was a guest at Reagan's first inaugural celebration. Sandoval proudly calls his National Liberation Movement "the party of organized violence."
Mont simply moved Garcia's dirty war from urban centers to the countryside "where the spirit of the Lord" guided him against "communist subversives", mostly indigenous Indians. As many as 10,000 Indians were killed and over 100,000 fled to Mexico as a result of Mont's "Christian" campaign.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/CentralAmerica.html

GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA
Ex-President of Argentina
Soon after the coup that brought him to power in 1976, General Jorge Rafael Videla began Argentina's dirty war. All political and union activities were suspended, wages were reduced by 60%, and dissidents were tortured by Nazi and U.S. trained military and police. Survivors say the torture rooms contained swastikas and pictures of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. One year after Videla's coup, Amnesty International estimated 15,000 people had disappeared and many were in secret detention camps, but although the U.S. press admitted human rights abuses occurred in Argentina, Videla was often described as a "moderate" who revitalized his nation's troubled economy. Videla had a good public relations firm in the U.S., Deaver and Hannalord, the same firm used by Ronad Reagan, Taiwan, and Guatemala. Not surprisingly, his Economics Minister, Jose Martinez do Hoz, spoke, at Deaver's request, on one of President Reagan's national broadcasts in order to upgrade Argentina's reputation.
Videla also received aid from WACL, the World Anti-Communist League (see card 17), through its affiliale, CAL (Confederation Anticomunista Latinoamericana). CAL sent millions of dollars to Argentina from sources such as the Italo-Argentine Masonic Lodge P-2, an outgrowth of old U.S. anti-communist alliances with the Italian drug malia. As part of its WACL affiliation, Argentina trained Nicaraguan contras for the U.S. Videla left office in 1981, and aftar the Falklands Crisis of 1982 he and his cohorts were tried for human rights abuses by the new government.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/SouthAmerica.html

[pampango]

16. Bad idea. Both morally indefensible and strategically counterproductive.

I suppose you are suggesting this for its irony value. Invading Venezuela would, of course, be morally wrong and against international law. Not that any of that would stop Bush and the boys, IF they had enough uncommitted military power to do it with which they don't.

Even if Venezuela invaded another country, which it shows no signs of doing, and the invaded country asked for help, I believe that all we could legally and morally do is to defend that country and repel the invasion, not to launch a counter invasion of Venezuela (morally and legally - not in Bush's brain).

Strategically Russia's invasion of Georgia may be a case of "short term gain, long term paid". They have obviously taught Georgia a lesson and garnered some new "respect" (fear?) given its willingness to use its military and to do so successfully (though I suppose one could compare this invasion to ours of Panama in terms of the military imbalance of forces).

The "long term pain" would occur if NATO still extends membership to Georgia. If an invasion won't stop that, what will? And rush of Poland and Ukraine to agree to missile defense systems and to generally show a renewed "respect" for Russia's use of its military by allying with the West even more, may not achieve for Russia what it had hoped to achieve.

We won't know for a while which scenario actually plays out. If Poland and Ukraine change their minds about the missiles and looking to the West for help (perhaps a cutoff of Russian oil and gas during the winter might teach them a lesson) and if Saakashvili is replace by a more pro-Russian president then Russia will be content with its actions.

[WriteDown]

19. You got it right...

I was just demonstrating the irony. Your assessment looks correct. It will be interesting to see what direction this goes in at this point. I am betting that Ukraine will be on fact track for NATO membership.

[L0oniX]

20. Having friends and business contacts in Poland I certainly hope that they pull out...

of that missile deal.

[frankieT]

33. RIDICULOUS

USA invaded a lot of countries, bombed the shit out of them (nothing like Russia did to Georgia), toppled their leaders without very much excuses beside "defending US national interests". US never waited this war to find bogus excuses.

Russia replied to a vicious attack by Georgia on South Ossetia a tiny independent region. Of course they were prepared, that's what a good army is supposed to do.
Moreover, the security and geostrategic concerns of Russia are honest : Georgia have a BORDER with Russia, it showed willingness to join NATO (the arch enemy of Russia) and was ready to solve the ossetian probleme with weapons...

Go figure, and try to find at LEAST ONE DECENT example of US being threatened so directly near its borders and its citizens killed. Last time it was Pearl Harbour.

[WriteDown]

34. Surely Putin and the Russians weren't lying....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3442686

Two wrongs do not make a right and the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

36. So are you signing up?

[Mudoria]

17. Might be interesting to see how many of the ships break

down or sink after such a lengthly voyage. The Russkies have a hard time getting those rust buckets to stay afloat much less sail anywhere.

[ensho]

22. and don't forget our newly resurrected 4th Fleet that the neo cons sent to

South Amer. to harass Chavez and other criminal neo con undertakings.

[Doctor_J]

23. Time to sell your stocks & put the money in gold & weapons

The PNAC genii should have seen this one coming.

[otherlander]

25. Hugo Chavez has the worst friends.

First the sexist queerbashing Iranian guy and now this? *shakes head*

[AlphaCentauri]

28. don't forget the poor, the gay, the woman

[judasdisney]

31. Colombian Prez Alvaro Uribe has the worst friends: Death Squads, Bush, McCain

Uribe has mass graves & death squads. Chavez doesn't.

Why is Chavez the Villain, but Uribe is a U.S. ally who kills his own people?

[otherlander]

41. Don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't call him a villain, I just think his allies kind of suck. With so many other democratic socialists to work with right there in South America, why does he have to make friends with Iran and Russia too?

And obviously Uribe is worse. It's pretty much taken for granted that everyone on this website hates him.

[davidinalameda]

58. you can't say anything negative about St. Hugo

don't you know that?

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

30. US Missed (and is mising) a HUGE opportunity.

Taking an oppositional posture to the Populist reforms sweeping across South and Central America is forcing Chavez, and the southern continent into the arms of Russia and China.

Chavez has extended the olive branch to the US a number of times, but has been rudely rebuffed by the Corporate Owned US Government that is more concerned with the Profits of a handful of Predatory, colonial corporations.

There is a HUGE market developing in South America providing the US is willing to play fair.
It is not too late, but sadly, the US (including Obama and the establishment Democrats) blindly continue to oppose the bloodless Populist revolution sweeping across the lower continent.

VIVA Democracy!!!
I pray it spreads to El Norte.
We could use some here.

[RethugAssKicker]

38. Couldn't have said it better !!... HEAR ! HEAR !

[14thColony]

37. If Russians have a sense of irony

...they'll say they were inspired by the US's selfless pro-democracy engagement in the Caucasus and so decided to do their part by supporting democratically-elected governments in South America.

[Igel]

46. They were inspired by Kosovo. (1)

And by rivalry with the US. (2)

And by their own nationalism and humiliation (see 1 and 2).

Crucially, you have to understand that many Russians view themselves the same way some arrogant Americans view the US. Things happen not because America thinks it's a good idea by itself, or because the US can't get out of doing something or does something reluctantly. No, it's all because of Russia.

Similarly, what happened in Georgia is all about the US, for some dolts. Not just one factor in many; not even a primary factor. But, for some, the only real factor. (There are similar petrocentric dolts, for whom it's all about the oil and nothing more.)

So some Russians consider (1) and (2) to be about Russia. We invaded Iraq to keep Russia down, Saddam was an old Russian ally, Russia had numerous pre-contracts to explore for and exploit Iraqi oil, Russia was closer to getting sanctions against Iraq lifted and showing that it was important; we supported Kosovo because Srbija was a Russian ally, it showed that Russia couldn't protect its client states (not that Jugoslavija was a fantastic Soviet client state), or even because we hated Slavs or the Orthodox. Not because of genocide, real or imagined; not because of WMD, real or imagined. But to stick it to Russia, as reason number 1, with no reason #2.

[AlphaCentauri]

63. (1) S. Ossetia is for the Russians what El Alamo is for us

[Odin2005]

39. And I though Chavez couldn't piss me off even more.

Georgia is a democracy, unlike the country that invaded them.

[IggyReed]

48. "And I though Chavez couldn't piss me off even more." pure comedy gold

Yeah, because the president of that "democracy" has surely not done anything as "authoritarian" as Chavez, right? Like, with RCTV, I'm sure you were up in arms when Saakashvili outright shut down opposition newspapers (not, in accordance with domestic law like in Venezuela, where the government didn't renew the license of a media company working with an attacking foreign power, helping to establish a military dictatorship) for no other reason than they opposed him, you didn't need the media to tell you to be outraged, and to post about the evils of the Georgian government. I'm sure you did the same in Colombia when Uribe killed journalists who simply asked the wrong questions, and simply removed opposition media. I'm sure in Georgia when there was reported wide spread vote tampering you criticized Georgia, just like the rest of the propagandists in the US said the Venezuelan vote was rigged (despite seven, seven more than the US during the last election, international organizations, including the Carter Center, saying the vote in Venezuela was clean and legitimate), even though it wasn’t. I’m sure you also were up in arms about the obviously rigged Mexican election a few years ago, which human rights organizations noted consistently.

Quick question: Russia sends some military assistance to Venezuela, you object. Do you have the same objections to the US, through “Plan Mexico”, sending billions of dollars of weapons to the Mexican police and military, who have extensive and systematic human rights abuses (if you want links I have them)? Do you object to the US sending as much military and financial assistance to the Colombian government, who is even worse? How about Turkey? Have a problem with the US militarizing countless countries and relying on the means of war for economic survival? I’m just trying to figure out if you have the same standards for every country, including our own, or if it changes depending on what argument you want to make at the time.

[AlphaCentauri]

64. everyday we prostitute even more that word "Democracy"

we have privatize Democracy is not ours anymore, is just for the ones who have the money to buy it.

[DS1]

40. Your move, Mr. Bush

[davidinalameda]

42. so Hugo is making nice nice with Russia

and counts Iran as one of its closest allies

nice

[IggyReed]

49. and the US is "making nice" with whom?

Does the US agree with the actions of the horrible Colombian government? Do they agree with the Saudi government or do they use them for geo-political reasons? Does the US like the reactionary and violent Haitian groups they've supported, or are there are forces at play? I could go down the list of examples a mile long that prove how silly this idea is.

If Venezuela uses this to attack internal opposition or to attack another country, you have a point. At this time, there is no evidence or precedence of either. If they use it to protect themselves, and there is obvious reasons why that would be the case, what the hell argument is there against this?

Militarization of countries is always bad, ours is a perfect example. However, a militarized and militarily powerful country that attacks and undermines governments their investors don’t like causes the countries they're attacking to arm themselves. If the US, for instance, continues to threaten Iran (forget supporting a failed coup like in Venezuela), what would the OBVIOUS & LOGICAL response be? To arm themselves in defense. If the US was being threatened by China, with bases being set up in Canada & Mexico, what would the logical and obvious US response be?

If the US doesn’t want Iran to arm themselves, want a brilliant idea? Stop funding groups committing terrorist attacks within Iran and stop threatening the country (in opposition to international law and the UN charter). Work with the country, negotiate, then if that doesn’t work, use legal means to bring them to the drawing table. It’s irrational and completely hypocritical to threaten and attack a country then to use the response to those actions as a justification for the attacks in the first place.

My god, all these Obama supporters with their reactionary, US exceptionalism world view. No thank you.

[davidinalameda]

50. has the US ever pretended to be anything than it is?

any country that considers itself as progressive as Venezuela does should not be allied with countries such as Iran

that is hypocrisy in a nutshell

and for Hugo to side with Russia over Georgia?

that is the classic definition of imperialism!

Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Empire

[IggyReed]

53. so logically..

it is not "progressive" to defend themselves? If a country is attacking the US, is it "progressive" to just lay over and die? What evidence, again, is there that this will be used for offensive means? What evidence is there of a single bit of Venezuelan imperialism? Give me a break.

If he uses the weapons to attack the internal opposition or to invade other countries you're right. To this point, there is no evidence, or precedence, at all for that. If you use that logic you can invent any scenario you want, many times more likely than Venezuelan "imperialism", and condemn every government in the world involved in weapons transfers. If you want to apply uniform standards and logic, and if you want to be objective, you should ask first for the US and the West to back off of Venezuela THEN see what happens.

There is a mountain of evidence and public statements to show that the US has attacked (endless countries) Venezuela, that they are funding the opposition and they they'd move into Venezuela in a heartbeat if they could. It makes perfectly logical sense for Venezuela to defend themselves.

If you want an example of hypocrisy, look to the US. A short while ago there were reports of Venezuela buying some guns and some low level weapons. The US press went off, a sign of dictatorship. Meanwhile, Bush was over the front pages about building "bunker busting" nukes and sending increased arms to the worse human rights offender in the hemisphere, Colombia. No one seemed to notice how laughingly hypocritical the whole thing was.

[davidinalameda]

57. it's not PROGRESSIVE to ally oneself with repressive regimes

like Iran and Cuba and oligarchies like Russia

Hugh only wants to rub the US's collective nose in the fact that he is allying himself with countries that the US doesn't like

he's no better than Bush

[IggyReed]

76. Aligning?

Iran and Venezuela have a few things in common: large amounts of oil, under constant (and extremely one sided and dishonest) media and military attacks from the US & both are relatively weak and poor compared to the US and the West in general. There is a logical reason why they would work together. You can't only work with governments who are progressively perfect. If Venezuela did that they'd be alone with a few countries at best and would be made to defend themselves against the US and the West, which would be impossible. Both are poor countries and both would benefit with increased trade. You should actually look into the NAM, or the international group of "developing" countries that emerged out of the Bandung Conference in 1955. All of the countries involved were poorer, "developing" countries and despite their (sometimes extreme) ideological differences, they all worked together on common interests. Countries that were persecuting communists would work with communists countries like Yugoslavia, not because they liked or agreed with each other but because they had common interests and goals, even if the means were different.

I also find the Cuba comment interesting. Name a single country in Cuba's position that has a better human rights record and have the access to healthcare, education and food that the average Cuban does. The government has acted strongly, especially in decades past. Answer this question (don't dodge it), how would ANY government act if another country attempted to kill their head of state almost once a month for 50 years? How would ANY government act if there were over a coup attempt a year, constant funding of internal opposition, economic and military war and decades long (and violent) terrorism? What effects would these attacks have here on our freedoms, especially with groups that have close connection and are being funded by the country attacking the US? Do I even have to ask?

If you asked the average Haitian, Dominican or El Salvadorian if they could have the US lifestyle or the Cuban lifestyle they'd obviously pick the US. There's a problem though. There are a finite amount of resources in the world and people in the West consume five to six times the amount of resources per capita than those in the "developing" countries. There aren't enough resources for EVERYONE to live as the West does, even attempting that will destroy the environment (which is happening). So it is a false choice. Ask the same group to choose what Cuba has (given that consumption levels are what they are) vs their country and they'd most of the time pick Cuba. THAT is why Cuba is attacked, not because of any abstract notions of "freedom".

[Judi Lynn]

77. There's a large community, nearing 1,000,000, of former Haitian citizens living in Cuba.

Cuba itself has a population around 11,000,000 people.

One of Haiti's greatest folk singers who was given Haiti's highest medal of honor, Martha Jean-Claude, moved to Cuba to stay. She and her husband were both harrassed, persecuted endlessly by the Duvalier dictatorship, and she was well known, celebrated also in Cuba.



Martha Jean Claude and Nicolas Guilen,
a poet who lived in Cuba, as well.

There's also a world-famous a capella singing group, "Desandann," which lives in Cuba, all the members being descendants of people who moved to Cuba from Haiti.

First heard about the Haitian community reading a U.S. professor had secured a grant to go to Cuba to study their culture.

[bemildred]

79. You are wrong, he is better than Bush.

Barney the Purple Dinosaur is better that Bush. Bush is a disaster. It's hard to find any sense in which Chavez' Venezuela is worse than what went before him, unless you are from the former ruling elites there, and then of course you are pissed off.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. "has the US ever pretended to be anything than it is?"

Yeah pretty much every day of the week. Next question. I mean are you fuckin' kidding? We make a living out of it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. We're going to repeat the mistakes we made with Cuba in 1959, are we?

Our neocons and their dupes never learn.

[MellowDem]

47. Venezuela should be happy

that they are not closer to Russia. If they sat on their border, they'd be trying to get into NATO and asking for defense missile placements from the US. Russia seems to be the exact opposite of what Chavez purportedly is striving for. Why doesn't Chavez try cozying up with other socialist powerful nations, like nations in Europe? That's what I don't get, and that's why I see Chavez as nothing better than a dirty politician.

[Pavulon]

51. no worries

you can look to his general staff for the guy who overthrows him. He was a coup leader and then got elected.

The question is will he be shot in the head or live it up on swiss bank acct money.

[Judi Lynn]

74. You need to be more truthful. He led a coup against a man who had his military fire into crowds of

unarmed protesters who were protesting the fact he had raised their cost of living far beyond their ability to survive.

They ran into the streets, he ordered his police to fire on them, THE POLICE LEFT, so he ordered his military to fire into the crowds.

This was the turning point in modern Venezuelan history, known as "El Caracazo Massacre."

The same President Carlos Andres Perez was impeached for massive corruption, was imprisoned, was removed from office. He remains a powerful friend and representative of the racist, European right-wing Venezuelan opposition.

[David Zephyr]

56. "The chickens are coming home to roost."

George Bush invades a sovereign nation in the 21st Century and Russia follows our "example" by invading Georgia.

George Bush wants to plant more U.S. military bases and missiles at Russia's doorstep and Russian follows our "example" by sending their Navy to Venezuela.

The chickens are coming home to roost.

[TankLV]

65. BINGO! Someone who "gets it"!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Exactly--the U.S. has military bases all over the world and sends its fleet

to any country that doesn't shoot at it, but the Russians aren't allowed to.

[Doctor Cynic]

69. It's only a *visit*.

US Navy ships visit China on an annual basis. Chinese navy ships have visited Japan for the first time recently. The Russians aren't building a naval base in Venezuela.

It's just a friendship gesture than anything else.

[Thothmes]

75. Ships of the Soviet Navy have visited Norfolk