Therapist: Anthrax suspect tried to poison people

[SpookyCat]

Source: SF Gate

Bruce E. Ivins, the late microbiologist suspected in the 2001 anthrax attacks, told his psychotherapist after learning he was about to be indicted that "he was going to go out in a blaze of glory, that he was going to take everybody out with him," she said.

Social worker Jean C. Duley also said Ivins left her a telephone message in mid-July, after she had alerted police to his threats, telling her that that her actions had made it possible for the FBI "to now be able to prosecute him for the murders."

<snip>

"As far back as the year 2000, the respondent has actually attempted to murder several other people, either through poisoning ... He is a revenge killer. When he feels that he's been slighted or has had — especially toward women — he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings," Duley said.

She added that Ivins "has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer. I have that in evidence. And through my working with him, I also believe that to be very true."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/02/national/a180744D95.DTL&tsp=1

---

This just sounds desperate to me. Every thing that comes out raises more questions for me than answers.

[liberalmuse]

1. I thought psychotherapists weren't supposed to reveal stuff about their patient's.

This one is sure spilling the beans.

[ohio2007]

2. imo, the 'therapist' was most likely clueless as a greyhound bus driver in Canada

thats why he makes the big bucks ;)

[SpookyCat]

3. Yup. I especially like this,

"...has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer. I have that in evidence."

I hear a child's voice..."see? see I got evidence...yeah...I do. But you can't see it, cuz it's SECRET!"

Pathetic.

[Wizard777]

4. It used to be that they didn't. But now Doctors and even Priests have to inform police of crimes.

But I don't think they are allowed to release information to the press under any circumstances.

[phillysuse]

7. She is not a psychotherapist - she has a B.A. in Social Work

and some training in addiction.

[jeff30997]

9. I agree with the other posters bu I have this to say:

He's dead Jim.

[SpookyCat]

19. Star Trek references are always appropriate... n/t

[jeff30997]

27. Hehehe.

Live long and prosper SpookyCat. :)

[stray cat]

14. If you have reason to believe the patient is about to murder someone you are an accessory

particularly if you can not hide behind an appropriate degree.

[undergroundpanther]

16. any psychologist ,psychiatrist or social worker or counselor

who has a patient confessing to doing murder,or is convinced the patient is going to murder somebody,or if a patient threatens someones life,seriously.That 'professional' is under legal obligation to report it to police.
Any shrink or social worker who FAILS to do this is guilty of being an accessory.
You are correct.

Will this therapist be charged as an accessory?
Who knows... I think she should be.
Considering the stuff this psychopath was working with at his job. His revenge fantasies would be a huge red flag to anyone,and his diagnosis a neon warning sign. Anyone working in a sensitive government facility has to go through a clearance,a personality evaluation, he should have been denied access to bio weapons,and been turned down for the job,but he was hired anyway. The fact he was hired fantasies and psychopath diagnosis and all, proves to me he was useful to someone,useful enough to take the risk,that he would poison people..Useful for a time.And when he became a liability...

[Julius Civitatus]

42. OK, I have a few QUESTIONS about this "theripist"...

So many things don't make sense in this case:

• How long has this Jean Duley person has known Bruce Ivins?
  
  
• How long was she "treating him", even though she's not a true "therapist", but a drug counselor?
  
  
• Why was she treating him?
  
  
• If, as she claims, Ivins was such a psychopathic monster with murderous tendencies since 2000... why didn't she alert the authorities until July 2008?
  
  
• She claims Ivins made these threats in alleged "group sessions". Are there any witnesses to this? Any witnesses willing to come forward? Oooooooooh! Of course not, silly me. It's an alleged "drug counseling group session", so nobody would reveal their identities!
  
  
• How can a therapist misspell her own profession?
  
  
• Why did Jane Duley said she lost her job as a "theripist" and had to spend all her money in lawyers?
  
  
• Why did she go into hiding in an "undisclosed location"? (her words)
  
  
• Why did Jane Duley make clinical accusations on Ivins of psychopathy, an homicidal sociopathy... but she's not a psychologist, psychiatrist, just a drug counselor with a dark past and lots of legal troubles?
  
  
• Why did she claim Ivins had a history of murderous threats going back to his college years, yet nobody can find any evidence to this claim? All people that knew him seem to be in absolute disbelief about this accusation.
  
  
• Why, if the FBI claims Ivins was a suspect from the start, did the Dept. of Defense award him with high honors in 2003?
  
  
• Why, if he was such a dangerous suspect, was he allowed to keep his high security clearance until last month?
  
  
• If the author of the anthrax letters was such an extremist right-wing nutjob (as suggested by the investigation), why all evidence points to the contrary? Ivins was a registered Democrat, volunteering for the Red Cross, involved in his community, and open-minded (his letters to the editor in his local newspaper paint a the picture of a religious man, open to accept homosexuality, and women as ordain ministers of the church).
  
  
• Sorority obsession: the media are reporting that "several official sources claim" Ivins was obsessed with the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority... back in his college days in Cincinnati, OH. And apparently that's why he drove 200 miles to Princeton, NJ to send anthrax letters to Leahy and Daschle from a mailbox 100 yards from a Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority. And Ivins was a registered Democrat sine 1982!!!
  Can anyone explain this one to me? Does this make any sense? Is this "evidence"? It sounds incredibly flimsy.

More and more questions keep popping up. None of this makes any sense to me. No true motive, circumstantial evidence, hearsay from questionable "theripists" and anonymous sources. This is a mess of colossal proportions.

[EFerrari]

5. All we have is her word and she isn't a psychologist.

:shrug:

[SpookyCat]

6. Yeah, I hate to be so cynical

but this little bit of new info here, little bit of new info there just strikes me as..."well, they're not buying it, say something more incriminating, maybe that'll shut them up"

And since he can't defend himself, they can say anything they want.

This whole thing stinks to me.

This and now possibly Blackwater doing raids here in CA...it's all making me edgy. I don't fucking like this.

[undergroundpanther]

17. yeah it stinks

I think the whole cabal of thugs are a bunch of psychopaths,and being psychopaths they'll use anybody and take stupid risks to get the ends they want,which is full spectrum domination of this world.
The fact this guy was psychopath is not the issue to be concerned with,the real issue is how did he pass his security clearance and why and WHO wanted him to be hired to mess with very dangerous microbes ,and granted him access to them despite his dangerous personality traits and red flags?

[Jefferson23]

36. I agree 100%

[superconnected]

37. Agreed!

[undergroundpanther]

15. you don't have to be a psychologist

to understand the personality traits that a psychopath has,you just have to be observant and not fool yourself about what you are seeing.
A cop can tell who's psychopathic ,if the cop isn't a psychopath himself,an abused person who has lived with a psychopath and was victimized by one knows how dangerous they are,a social worker can tell too.I can tell and I avoid them like the diseased slime they are.

If you lived through knowing a psychopath personality,or seek to find out what the traits of a psychopath is, it is pretty clear to see past the mask of sanity they wear if you are observant ,have clear personal boundaries,and have two brain cells to rub together..

[EFerrari]

31. Sure. But this woman is being treated as an expert witness

and we have no indication that she is an expert. I have more training than she did and I'm certainly not an expert.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. These would be, I hope you admit, untrained opinions rather than professional diagnoses

That's the point. I can look at somebody's behavior and decide for myself that that person is a "sociopath," but I would be speaking very roughly, and without the proper training to make any such diagnosis.

[NoodleyAppendage]

38. You have to be licensed by the state to diagnose and treat.

Social workers are NOT qualified to diagnose, which is what this crackpot is doing. Personally, I think she's a plant.

J

[Waiting For Everyman]

8. Is Duley alleging that Ivins was charged with attempted murder before?

Or is this just her convicting him on her own? What attempted murders? I live in the area, and any attempted poisonings are news to me. I'll believe it when I see it.

This looks like her manufacturing evidence for the charge they intended to bring against him. And the quote of Ivins' words in the article was Duley paraphrasing him, not specifically quoting. If Ivins' long-time coworkers weren't scared of him, why was she? Unless she was in fact sabotaging him and he knew it?

He's dead. He won't be charged now. So what's the point of the public media smearing a guy who won't be defending himself in court?

They are exploiting his death to close an inconvenient case. Pretty foul, on its face. As in the Oswald case, they learned that the best patsy is a dead one... so they figured in this case, apply enough pressure and it's over.

From what I've read in the local papers, Ivins' "crime" was believing the (religious) right were "good guys". It must've been very disillusioning for him, to find out who the neocons really were that he been working for all those years. They probably offered him life at Gitmo as a best-case scenario.

[HooptieWagon]

10. If this is true

Then she should have had him Baker Acted... it should be able to be verified in county records. If he was a serious threat, as she is claiming, and she didn't have him Bakered, then she is guilty of culpable negligence and may be sued by the anthrax victims/families. Perhaps the filing of civil litigation will cause her to spill the beans on the parties putting her up to this obvious BS.

[hedgehog]

33. What about the "several top psychiatrists" who knew who

was a hazard to society? If they even exist, why didn't they Baker Act him? WHy didn't security at Fort Dietrich pick up on any of this? "Yeah, that Doc Ivens, he's a psychopath intent of murdering thousands and he's working with bioweapons, but his kid is on my kid's Little League team, so I say leave him alone."

[HooptieWagon]

39. Exactly

this claim he was a homicidal sociopath going back decades that recently surfaces, yet he somehow got a security clearance to work with biological weapons, retained that clearance after 9/11, and he was until just now not judged to be a threat to others nor himself by his doctors (based upon no Baker Act)? OK, either those mental healthcrae workers are grossly incompetent and negligent, or they are following orders to help set up a patsy for a fall. I smell the latter.

[undergroundpanther]

11. our government

is full of psychopaths.Charismatic psychopaths adept at appearing like they care.One problem though a psychopath cannot maintain that fakerery forever.It cracks as soon as you get close to the truth of seeing who they really are and you are not sufficiently obedient and enchanted by the psychopath's charismatic appearance of authority...
It's the psychopaths among the psychopaths in this corrupt system that fail to be useful to the bigger more manipulative psychopaths,that seem to become"serial killers" when they have not done their job as planned .

Serial killers that although seen as dangerous,are also seen as useful assets by the bigger psychopaths,the guy was too useful to our psychopath leaders, to not let him invent horrible biological weapons,and test them on expendable people,even a few of the'enemies'.

You see our cold hearted leaders love having all kinds of really nasty and cruel torturous weapons to bully other nations and intimidate people they don't like,or who don't play it their way.

And when this minor psychopath tool was no longer useful to the bigger psychopaths that hired him to make bio weapons,and it looked like he might become a liability to the bigger psychopaths plans for domination ..he got a heads up they were going to prosecute him.

And so knowing his personality already,they knew he would prefer to die like Hitler did.When he was sure he was trapped by the'enemies' he created ,he hid away and kills himself.Many killers kill themselves rather than be caught. Some psychopaths do this because they refuse to lose or concede any power or position,he does not want his true personality to be exposed or his incompetence,he does not want his victims to have a voice,And he cannot stand the idea that others would constrain him,his actions,deny his desires to get back at others,would not be his enablers,threaten his cohorts,..He want to be controlled by any people,any one he has harmed,or any laws.
And if he was already a known psychopath,the people who hired him into such a sensitive and dangerous job knew what he was capable of doing with those bio-weapons. And they LET him do it.
By proxy of course,so the bigger psychopaths who hired him and funded him would always have plausible deni-ability the psychopaths best defense.

[Doctor_J]

12. He's a revenge killer? So why Daschle and Leahy?

I call BULLSHIT

[undergroundpanther]

13. Right-wingers

have lots of revenge/omnipotent fantasies.They are quite willing to use any means to get their ends,which is full spectrum domination.
The right-wing ideology and it's core tenets and methods fit hand into glove with the agendas and the desires of people who have personalities of psychopath/sociopath authoritarian and narcissism.
Every right wing bully that gets power abuses it.The whole right wing ,and possibly some on the left or even the entire corporate/military/theocratic/government corrupt bunch on the hill and in the boardrooms and private meetings in high places shares personality traits with this guy.

[EFerrari]

40. Except he wasn't a winger. n/t

[sendero]

21. Here's the other thing that bothers me..

... I'm pretty sure that the "doctor-patient" confidentiality arrangement between a psychiatrist and subject is MOOT when it comes to the comission of a violent crime.

If a psy knew someone tried to kill someone and didn't report it, that is a violation of the law.

So, is this idiot ready to go to jail?

[Marie26]

18. Who is the psychotherapist?

It can't be Daley.

[truthisfreedom]

20. Someone please explain to me how he "died Tuesday, two days after taking an acetominiphen overdose"

when he was in custody on suicide and homicide watch?

[SpookyCat]

30. I can't begin to explain one single "fact" here...

I'm trying to get through Glenn Greenwalds article in Salon right now, "Journalists, their lying sources, and the anthrax investigation"

All I have are questions and suspicions and deep bone chilling dread, even more than the sort of low grade fever of dread I've had since 2000.

Maybe my defenses are down right now since I'm tired and loopy from Sudafed, and this will all look, not better, but maybe not as dire, in the morning.

It just seems to be getting worse though, doesn't it? Every new story, every new line makes it *less* likely to me that it happened as reported. You know they doth protest too much...

[EFerrari]

41. He wasn't in custody at the time. This was after he checked out

of the hospital.

[Ian David]

22. Why would we listen to the rapist?

Oh.

Not "The Rapist."

"Therapist."

Nevermind.

[geomon666]

23. I'll take The Rapists for 800 Alex. n/t

[Doctor_J]

32. Penis mightier than the sword

OK we're getting off topic a little

[SpookyCat]

24. Made me smile on a crappy day...

:-)

I worked as an admin for a therapist once, and let me tell you, spell check won't help you with "the rapist"...luckily I caught it before the letter went out! Oi vey!

[Ian David]

25. Spell check won't help a P.R. firm with "Pubic Relations" either. n/t

[SpookyCat]

28. LOL for real! I startled Comrad Snarky! n/t

[mitchum]

26. LOL! I prefer to listen to the advice of a combination analyst and therapist...

y'know...an analrapist
god, I miss that show

[Mind_your_head]

29. What would Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, et al......"think about"/"handle" such a charge?

'Honesty' is THE key.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. This person is a social worker who does factory-style drug counseling

She is one step above the person who teaches the course you take for having too many speeding tickets.

Ms. Duley has no qualifications at all to make diagnostic claims about ANYBODY. They need to release all the FBI files on Mr. Ivins immediately, and stop pimping out this woman's hearsay non-medical speculations as if they were scientific evidence for something.