BREAKING NEWS: FLDS children heading home today

[maddezmom]

Source: Go San Angelo

BREAKING NEWS: FLDS children heading home today
Judge Barbara Walther of the 51st District Court signed an order this morning vacating the state's custody of children taken from the YFZ Ranch during a raid in early April.

According to the order, issued by the clerk's office at the Tom Green County Courthouse, legal guardians of the children can beginning picking them up starting at 10 a.m. today through 5 p.m. and continuing each day until all the children have been returned.

The document also orders the parent, managing conservator or legal guardian to participate in parenting classes and not to interfere with any ongoing investigations. It also stipulates that agents of the Child Protective Services can visit the home of the children and interview the children, and that CPS has access to the residence of each child for unannounced visits during the hours of 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day.

Every child also shall remain in the state of Texas at all times and shall not be removed from Texas for any reason without approval for the court, according to the order.



Read more: http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/02/flds-children-heading-home-today/?partner=yahoo_headlines

[Ian David]

1. Tom Green County Courthouse?

[Igel]

12. Probably not.

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Green_%28general%29 .


Opening wiki paragraph:

"Thomas “Tom” Green (June 8, 1814<1>– April 12, 1864<2>) was a Texas landowner, politician, and soldier who served as a brigadier general in the Confederate Army during the American Civil War. He was considered as one of the finest cavalry leaders in the Trans-Mississippi Theater"

Sounds like the county was big enough to be a decent-sized state, long ago, according to the wiki TG county entry:
"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the county has a total area of 1,541 square miles (3,990 km²), of which, 1,522 square miles (3,942 km²) of it is land and 18 square miles (48 km²) of it (1.20%) is water," but "it originally comprised an area of over 60,000 square miles." I have trouble accepting that at face value, but Texas in the mid-1800s wasn't a very well settled place, politically or demographically.

Georgia is 59k sq mi. Illinois, Ohio, New York, and more than a couple others are smaller yet.

[Jefferson23]

2. what a mess! The cult has rights.

[papau]

7. The cult will reject order as it interfers with male right to screw kids at will

[cornermouse]

9. I agree.

They aren't about to obey the court orders.

[Ian David]

22. Well, some of them said they didn't KNOW it was illegal to screw kids.

And now, when they get caught again, they'll have to say they FORGOT it was illegal to screw kids.

[hokies4ever]

23. The government doesn't own your children

Too bad the courts had to remind the Texas officials of this little fact. No class-action child lawsuits on their watch.

[Scout]

30. parents don't own them either

i hope many of them learned something of the outside world, and that there are choices besides being a breeder slave.

[hokies4ever]

31. Even Texas officials have to follow the law

That's what I learned from all of this. Cowboy diplomacy is not a Texan trait, just a Dubya trait. :rofl:

Those idiots should have done this right and they would have a case.

[JeanGrey]

33. Yup. We haven't heard the end of this, and DNA isn't in yet!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

15. as much as I disdain organized religions of any kind, I am glad

that the rule of law was applied as appropriate here, even by a texas court. we will face many such challenges after we win the white house, and if this country is to survive, and repair the damage caused by Bush, the rule of law must be applied to all, even to Cheney, Addington, Rove, Bolton, Bolton, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush, gonzales, and many more.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

3. Just in time for June Wedding Season too

Children Return to Polygamist Cult- Just in Time for June Wedding Season

Ridiculopathy on June 2, 2008

SAN ANGELO, TX- Bells are ringing in the Lone Star state on this joyous day. The Texas high court ruled last week that more than 400 children removed from the Yearning for Zion polygamist ranch weeks ago may be returned to their parents- and not a moment too soon since many of them have made arrangements for lavish June weddings. For 12 year old Wanda Mann and her octogenarian shared-husband-to-be, the ruling means that they won't have to postpone their nuptials after all and, mort importantly, they won't lose the deposit on the reception hall at Chuck E. Cheese.

"I hated the thought that we'd have to put this off even for a day," said her intended. "People started saying that I had a fear of commitment because I waited so long to propose to her but I really wanted to make sure she was the one- well, one of the ones. You get the idea."

...Texas prosecutors had ordered the children removed over concerns that they were being abused but on this glorious day during which more than two dozen very young girls were married off with and without their consent, no one could see any evidence of such mistreatment.

"As we all know youth is a state of mind," said jailed FLDS leader Warren Jeffs. "And many of these fundamentalist Mormon girls are very mature for their age. You can't blame a guy for marrying one or two of them without checking ID. Some of these twelve year olds, you'd swear they were fourteen."

...more at the link

[underpants]

6. Rape rooms in Iraq-BAD rape rooms in Texas-GOOD

Because god KNOWS we wouldn't want to get in the way of anyone's RIGHTS in this day and age

:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Taking kids away from their parents without evidence they are being abused - BAD

Acting on an anonymous tip from a mentally ill person who pretended to be a member of the FLDS - BAD.

Assuming all of these people are molesting their kids with no evidence to back that up - STUPID.

[uppityperson]

16. Thanks for posting that article in Editorial section.

For those who might not understand the problem. Yes, satire, or would it be editorializing, but the issue. Here's link for anyone who might wish to participate there: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=363273&mesg_id=363273

[Blaq Dem]

18. Yes, dirty old men can resume their pedophilia sex lives

[mbperrin]

4. And another hate group with good lawyers wins another round.

Sad, since this is a supremacist hate group with an underage sex fetish and slave labor addition.

But yeah, let's get those kids back in there! Then maybe the "dads" who ran off can get right back in there!

[fascisthunter]

5. yes it is sad.... the children and women have less rights than the cult leaders

that's what this says to me.

If ya wanna do perverted shit to women and children, just tell the government you are a religion and God told you so, and all civil liberties of cult members becomes null and void according to Texas Law, you your self and America at large. Screw the COnsititution. Religious freedom to own people is ok... bring back slavery and call it a religion. :sarcasm:

[Frances]

8. Good points

[jpertello]

11. Exactly

Makes me so sick to know this is going on under the guise of "religion".

[hokies4ever]

24. The government doesn't own your children

They never ruled that Texas can't prosecute the cases individually. Just that you MUST prosecute the cases on the merits and not as some holier-than-thou class-action lawsuit over 400+ children.

[fascisthunter]

26. nobody said the government ever did "own" the Children

I said the CULT OWNS THE CHILDREN and Texas is condoning it by considering them a "religion".

[musette_sf]

21. yes, the FLDS is acknowledged as a hate group

by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[emad]

10. The children have legal rights. But the whole FLDS thing stinks.

Only a US Supreme Court appeal ruling can sort out this mess.

Polygamy is illegal same as paedophilia and slavery.

The whole legal system is in denial, care of the GOP's whitewash of justice.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. I feel so sorry for those kids...

for a multitude of very good reasons, but what broke my heart was reading that they had no idea what crayons were. :( One of the foster families were surprised to find the kids had no idea what they were or how to use them. I mean really now, just how crazy fundie do you have to be not not allow your kids to play with crayons. :crazy:

[WolverineDG]

34. Perhaps they didn't know what crayons are

because they use colored pencils that artists use instead.

Just a thought.

dg

[mbperrin]

37. Why don't you go over to the FLDS site where they list the daily

schedules for these children? This is their OWN posting.

You'll find 6 hours a day of indoctrination for 2 year olds and washing dishes as the total "fun" they have. Look at the photos of the compound. There's not one piece of playground equipment of any sort, and look at the "tours" given by the moms on several networks. No toys of any kind.

That's because pets are not allowed, toys are not allowed, and laughing is not allowed. But up at 5:30 am every morning for 2 hours of indoctrination before breakfast? Sure.

[WolverineDG]

43. Actually, I've seen the children's art work first hand

but I know you're mind is already made up.

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. And you honestly believe your fist hand knowledge matters.

Imagine that! :hi:

[WolverineDG]

52. Yeah, quelle surprise that!

Go figure!

Heya proud! :hi:

dg

[Lars39]

54. If you are in a position to see conditions up close, you aren't being

very ethical posting this information on a public message board.

[redtornado]

14. The kids deserve a choice in life

But pulling them out of their home at a young age isnt the way to do it.

[LostinVA]

32. So you think kids should make the decision to leave abuse?

Most kids wouldn't. FLDS or not. They're scared and brainwashed.

Sometimes adults have to make decisions for kids. Non-abusive adults that aren't beating and raping them.

[David__77]

17. Removing them en masse was a terrible mistake.

It was clear from the beginning that this would fail, as have other similar actions in the past. It's a facet of our legal system that groups like FLDS have the right to set themselves apart from the broader community and live as they see fit. Specific evidence of law breaking must be brought to bear in order to take action.

[Blaq Dem]

19. FLDS is basically a religion built around pedophilia

It's a sex cult. No children should live in that condition. The women look scared. The children look scared. It should not be legal under any circumstance.

[David__77]

20. Whether true or not, the law does not allow summary removal.

I would advise that people campaign for revised laws in order to affect these removals if that's what they want. But there will inevitably be tradeoffs in the process that might adversely affect others' rights as well.

[Echotrail]

25. Sad. Children can't be protected from rape and incest.

Arranged polygamist marraiges.

:-(

The parents didn't protect them before. Why should they start now?

[JFreitas]

35. Lack of compassion

Hmmmm..... It seems to me there are a nnt things we should need to take into account.

First, that, much as may dislike it on occasion, "Innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond reasonable doubt" also applies even to polygamist pedophiles.

Secondly, I do not recall reading anywhere that children of the age of 2 or 3 years were being actually abused, quite the contrary, some officials stated that there was no evidence of that. I believe that a kid of 2 years is somewhat different from a kid of 12 or 14, and that even bureaucrats could be able to tell the difference.

Thirdly, that if anything here, the mothers are the real victims. Or isn't that precisely what is being alleged? that they are being forced to marry at very young ages? To add to their already troubled existence the cruel punishment of having their children taken away, especially in the case of really young kids, seems to me to be not only unjust, but also dangerously counterproductive if any sort of education campaign is going to be able to have some success with them.

Fourthly, let's not forget that these kids are being sent to foster institutions in Texas, which may not have the best track record for them in the world. If you read the article I am pointing to following, it should chill your hearts.

All sorts of righteous rantings would improve strongly with a dose of compassion and understanding of the suffering of real people (as opposed to evil archetypical bogeymen of our choice).

http://www.alternet.org/rights/86704/?page=2

The FLDS Children Seized in Texas are in Their Own Private Gitmo
By Richard Wexler, The Nation. Posted May 31, 2008.

Foster care is a toxic intervention, to be used sparingly. In the case of the Yearning for Zion ranch, Texas prescribed megadoses of foster care.

A little boy, maybe 3 years old, walks past row after row of cots arrayed in a sports coliseum in Texas, carrying a little pillow. "I need someone to rock me," he says. "I just want to be rocked, I want to find a rocking chair." Two adults, whose job is child protection, are following him. But they make no move to comfort him. They just follow him and write in their notebooks.

(...)

When children are needlessly put into foster care, they lose not only mom and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers, friends and classmates. For a young enough child, it's an experience akin to a kidnapping. One recent study of foster care "alumni" found they had twice the rate of post-traumatic stress disorder of Gulf War veterans and only 20 percent could be said to be "doing well."

Another study comparing outcomes for 15,000 children found that even maltreated children left in their own homes with little or no help fared better, on average, than comparably maltreated children placed in foster care.

And in the case of the Eldorado 400+, even the State of Texas doesn't claim most children actually were abused; officials say they took the children because they might be abused at some point in the future.

(...)

There is one group of foster-care children for whom the trauma of separation is even worse: those taken from battered mothers who allegedly "failed to protect" them from abuse. Taking children under these circumstances is, in the words of one expert, "tantamount to pouring salt into an open wound." "Failure to protect" is the only allegation against the mothers of Eldorado. The way Texas has handled the Eldorado case can be boiled down to a single sentence: Pass the salt.

(...)

Emotional harm often occurs to children even when foster homes are good. The majority are. But the rate of abuse in foster care, both in family foster homes and in institutions, is far higher than generally realized and far higher than in the general population. Texas institutions are particularly notorious; they were the subject of two scathing reports issued in 2004 by the former State Comptroller. And if the Eldorado detentions go on long enough, many children who probably never were abused on the Yearning for Zion ranch probably will be abused in foster care.

And, arguably, some have been mistreated already. Texas authorities repeatedly have said one reason they separated the children from their mothers was to make it easier to get the "real stories" out of the children -- a tactic that amounts to emotional waterboarding. There also are allegations that authorities pretended to believe some adults they held -- including a 27-year-old who produced a driver's license and birth certificate -- were minors, in order to question them without their lawyers present.

(...)

Neither money nor training is a substitute for due process. At-risk children will be safer when we demand open hearings, higher standards of proof, and meaningful legal representation for indigent families. They will be safer when we demand civil liberties without exception. Shortcuts that bypass civil liberties will win neither the war on terror nor the war on child abuse.

[maxsolomon]

27. has the state at least identified the children & their fathers?

i'd like to see the welfare gravy train ended at least. let the FLDS bear the full economic weight of their religion instead of bilking the rest of us into funding pedophilia.

[uppityperson]

29. As far as I know, they haven't ID'd the fathers.

[LanternWaste]

28. These children will suffer. And the cycle will continue.

One of the reasons I left TX CPS was because too many times I witnessed children going back to abusive families after seeing, speaking, reading and writing about precisely what those "parents" had done to them.

That only in the past year could I look back on particular cases rather than continue to blot them out means I'm making some progress, right? That I don't see those bruised arms, bruised faces, and bruised souls every time I see any child means I'm getting over it a little bit, right?

I could only cry so many times. But, again I'm wrong-- seems I still have enough tears to shed a few over children after I read the OP.

If this appeal is not over-turned, these children will suffer. And the cycle will continue.


(Oh, and my apologies to the TX CPS=Nazi Gestapo crowd-- I imagine that a CPS Worker who gets burnt out and emotional from seeing too much abuse at the hands of "family and friends" must really be a disconnect to your preconceived bumper-sticker philosophies, but that's life-- and not even your imaginary sacred cows are immune from abusive parents...)

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Good

These kids need to be with their families.

[mbperrin]

38. Even though they're a hate group and monitored as such?

Wow. I guess all those KKK kids in the 50s were in good hands after all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I belong to a hate group

Members of my hate group were jailed at the 2004 Republican convention. And in DC. And in Crawford, TX. And in many cities all over the country.

And our kids are in very good hands, thank you.

[uppityperson]

40. What hate group is that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Actually there are several

The Democratic party

The peace community

The anti-war community

All have been labeled hate groups by those who disagree with these groups or their work.

[uppityperson]

55. Those don't count. Every group has someone who hates them.

Being officially designated as a "hate group" is different.

[mbperrin]

41. Exactly which group monitored by the Southern Poverty Law Center

do you belong to?

I hate it when people marginalize serious comments and dangerous situations with a flip comment.

They do it because they're too lazy to Google, even when you give them the search terms.

So back it up. Name the group.

Waiting...............

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. So it's not a hate group unless the SPLC says so?

Tell that to the right wingers. Many think the entire Democratic party is a hate group.

[mbperrin]

50. So you don't know who Morris Dees is, and you don't belong to a hate group.

Just a chance to make a gratuitous "cute" comment. Just as I thought.

Thanks for playing.................

[Frank Cannon]

42. Does your "hate group" rape children too?

Why don't you have a seat over there and talk to me?

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. This doesn't even deserve a response.

[ravencalling]

49. Having posted on this group's move to Texas

Many moons ago, this just really bothers me. I have to agree that the actions taken were what seemed to be in a desperate even heroic if misguided attempt to find evidence of individual abuse, and apparently these actions did not work out as planned. In addition by not following rule of law strictly in this case, it may be a long time before any real abuse can be discovered and handled - which is sad. But my hopes are that the authorities continue to try.

I think with any cult there is a huge difficulty. What do you do? With a closed group such as this, operating outside of the law and system, how do you get individual proof of abuse? Proof is the key. Consider the fact that the brainwashed young women are not going to admit abuse in protection of their so called husbands and families. Marriage outside of the law is hard to prosecute. Rape can only be proven with children and DNA results in this case, to link underage rape with adults.

I agree that this is wholly a cult of pedophilia, where the victims are indoctrinated from birth to accept the circumstance. Very effective and convenient.

My hope is that there continues to be efforts to monitor and quickly go after evidence when opportunity presents itself. The State of Texas is going to have a embarrassingly hard time justifying itself as the the protector and home of a pedophile group which is now exposed to the world.

[JFreitas]

51. More complicated than that

I think it's way more complicated than that. Clearly, the primary accusation here is "statutory rape", that is to say, sex between people which our laws tell us shouldn't be having sex together, due to an age difference. Though I agree with the fact that lines need to be drawn somewhere, I also believe it is impossible to encapsulate reality to a point where you can enforce these laws without creating ambiguity. More than that, I think pretty much everyone would agree that there is a gray area. Is sex between an 18 year old and a 16 old wrong? it may be illegal, but is it wrong? And if the younger partner is 14? Or the older one is 40? It may be wrong, but then again, it may not. Or it may be a wrong that evolves into something else. When I was 19 I had a girlfriend who was 16, and we had sex. I still see her frequently, we're good friends (I'm 444). Not all things are evil as we think. I don't older men should be marrying the young girls as seemed to be the case in that community, but I also think that some sort of good sense needs to be present.

Now admmitedly, the situation initially may have seemed much worse from the outside. I believe authorities were scared that some serious abuse was going on and decided to act first and then sort things out. But it's been weeks now, and at some time errors should be acknowledged and correctiovs be made.

I am not saying that they shouldn't prosecute the group for creating an environment where girls feel it is OK to get married at the age of 14 and 15, and do so. But if these are the only charges (statutory rape), and if nn found of other crimes... do you REALLY think the kids should be taken from their mothers? from all accounts, they were well fed and clothed, and not mistreated. You and I may believe (probably rightly) that the kids are being educated in a bad environment. But should they be made to suffer the pain of separation? At the age of 2? And a mother is no less a mother because she is only 15 or 16. Or do you guys think they don't loive their children, just because they are fundamentalist bigots, and teenagers?

I also dislike extremist muslims. It is a fact that they frequently will take wives as young as 12 or 13, and that they will have children with them. Do you also advocate taking the children away from them?

[shrike]

53. Thanks for pointing out the difference

Pedophilia, as strictly defined, involves pre-pubescent children. As in those who have not reached puberty yet. A 14, 15-year-old girl, except in very unusual circumstances, has reached puberty.

Since I have met young teens who had inappropriate relationships with adults who clearly took advantage of them, early sex, and early marriage, can be quite damaging. Not to mention against the law, if it involves statutory rape.

But I agree there is a huge gray area here. In most cases, a young teen-ager should not be marrying a much-older man and having his child. But are there exceptions? Maybe.

[ravencalling]

56. All good points..

Certainly abuse can be difficult to define if you are limited to the confines of what the law agrees is or is not abuse.

In the case of this cult, it is not a singular occurrence but it is indoctrinated. It seems to me, and I need to qualify that here because I am not involved with this group first hand, that the family groups if you can call them that have created a world with an environment where the children are not aware of any other choices.

Is this abuse? I would say yes, but not abuse that one can easily prosecute or prove. That doesn't mean it is any less abuse.

The difference in my mind is this, which I think we agree on. Two people consent to a relationship, and are aware of other choices, but still consent. There is the argument that children are not mature enough to be able to evaluate their choices and should be protected until they are, and that is actually something I agree with, however, what if, as in this case, a child is indoctrinated to the point where they believe there is only one choice? And that one choice has the potential of severely limiting their lives as adults?

It's not the question of whether or not the 15 yr olds are good mothers, but did the 15 yr olds have a choice in becoming mothers? Did they even know of any other choices? Well, I suppose based on the circumstances of these young women's births that then none of them would have ever wanted to become scientists or doctors or perhaps mothers at a later date in their lives with someone whom they genuinely loved?

I do think it was wrong to take 2 yr olds away from these mothers, as I consider them to be victims in this case, not perpetrators. I believe my point was that the authority's over-reached in their response to this problem. They didn't get the proof they had hoped would cover their actions in their zeal.

It is definitely a complicated issue from a legal standpoint, but the right and wrong of it is not complicated at all.

[JFreitas]

57. Yes...

My point was exactly that. Those mothers were not aware of other choices. They are probably going to be rearing their children the same way. It was wrong for the older guys to marry them at that age. BUT given the huge gray areas taking the kids away was wrong AND counterproductive (IMHO, of course) as it will do little to break the cycle of abuse going on. "Yes, when I was a young kid, the godless federal commie authorities took me away from Mommy, I'm so happy to be back with God's people now!".

I am always afraid to characterize things absolutely here. Who am I to say that at least some of those marriages weren't happy and fruitful ones? One of my best friends (who is from Senegal) is a good example of this: his mother was married to a guy she had never even met in her life, when she was 13 and he was 20, they waited one year for the consummation of their marriage. They seem to me to be well-adjusted, happy people, actually. Personally, I think that it's a case of a bad practice resulting in a happy ending, but even though I strongly disagree with the practices and would be in favor of making it illegal it I would never go as far as taking their kids away just because she was 15 and he was 21.