BREAKING CLINTON LOSES FIRST PLEDGED DELEGATE

[grantcart]

Source: Washington Post

Prince George's County Executive Jack B. Johnson, a Democratic convention delegate pledged to support Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, said yesterday that he thinks Sen. Barack Obama has "in a real sense" won the Democratic nomination and that he now plans to support Obama at the August convention.

Johnson, who endorsed Clinton nine days before Maryland's February primary, said he will urge Gov. Martin O'Malley and Sen. Barbara A. Mikulski, who co-chair Clinton's Maryland campaign, to bring all of her delegates to Obama's camp for the sake of party unity.

"I cannot in good conscience go to the convention and not support Barack," Johnson said in an interview. "She ran a great campaign, but she fell short of the line."

"The freedom to change your mind or change your vote does exist," Paulson said. "They're not like superdelegates, but they do have this flexibility."

Obama swamped Clinton in Maryland, capturing 61 percent of the vote statewide and 79 percent of the vote in Prince George's County. Given the results in Maryland and elsewhere, Johnson said, the Maryland party would be unenthusiastic about the November election if Obama were not the nominee.

A decision by O'Malley or Mikulski to release all of Maryland's Clinton delegates could be the start of a national wave to unify behind Obama, Johnson said.


Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051202554.html?referrer=digg

---

THIS IS A STUNNING DEVELOPMENT --- AFTER LOSING SEVERAL SUPER DELEGATES HILLARY CLINTON HAS LOST HER FIRST PLEDGED DELEGATE


THIS IS SURE TO COMPETE WITH THE HEADLINES FOR THE WEST VIRGINIA ELECTION


IF EVEN A FEW MORE FOLLOW THEN IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR HER TO SUSTAIN ANY RATIONAL REASON TO CONTINUE HER CAMPAIGN.

[Richard Steele]

1. The first of many, most likely. nm

[VeraAgnes]

14. So, this tactic is completely unfamiliar to me....

The OP opening statement is grossly misleading....but, that's typical on DU now.


It was my understanding that pledged delegates are fixed until the Convention. The delegate can drop out and be replaced by another supporting candidate delegate alternate but could NOT switch the vote pledge to a different candidate at this stage of the pre-convention.

Someone, please share the rule which authorizes this activity.:shrug:

snip>

"The freedom to change your mind or change your vote does exist," Paulson said. "They're not like superdelegates, but they do have this flexibility."

[druidity33]

29. Hillary

has been pushing this meme for months. Frankly i was unaware that Pledged delegates could switch too, until one of Wolfson's(?) conference calls and on her campaign trail she's mentioned it. I thought she was actively working to switch Pledges TO HER... this is not the development she was hoping for....

:shrug:

[Window]

Wasn't that about the same time she began calling them "automatic delegates."

[druidity33]

52. yeah, i think so

it seems like it was just before or after the early March round of Primaries (5th or 6th?)

Sometimes when you try and score an edge it'll come back to bite you in the ass.

I don't think anyone should be able to switch Pledged status until at the convention or not at all... but that's just my opinion.

:shrug:

[Igel]

178. "Automatic delegate" refers to super delegates.

Also known as "unpledged delegates", in addition to the long official term.

"Automatic delegate" is the official shorthand for the long official term, according to the Democratic Party.

[krkaufman]

69. Personally, I don't agree with such a move ...

... but the irony of Clinton's own tactic coming back to bite her does give me some small pleasure.

[Zhade]

182. The irony is delicious. Hoisted on her own petard!

Couldn't have happened to a more deserving compulsive liar.

[ekwhite]

185. Yes, they have been pushing that theme

It is ironic it would come back to bite her, although I think that person should drop out in favor of a Clinton supporter.

[City Lights]

58. Clinton started hinting at going after Obama's pledged delegates awhile

ago. This piece is from early March:

A few days ago, Ben Smith reported that during a conference call with reporters, top Clinton aide Harold Ickes noted that pledged delegates aren’t formally bound to vote for the candidate they’re elected to support. “That binding rule was knocked out in 1980,” he said. Ickes didn’t actually say the Clinton campaign would start pursuing pledged delegates, but the fact that he would highlight the rule raised eyebrows.

Hillary Clinton personally sparked new speculation about this in an interview with Newsweek. Asked how she could still win the nomination given Obama’s delegate lead, Clinton said:

“<The math> doesn’t look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they’re all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose. Even elected and caucus delegates are not required to stay with whomever they are pledged to.”

Those last 16 words have stirred quite a bit of controversy in Democratic circles over the last 24 hours.

more... http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14837.html

Here's more from Hillary on this subject:

Hillary: Pledged Delegates "Just Like" Supers — They Can Switch
By Eric Kleefeld - March 25, 2008, 12:09AM

During an interview with the Philadelphia Daily News editorial board, Hillary Clinton again pitched the idea that she can close the gap in the pledged delegate count — by pointing out that pledged delegates can always switch their votes.

"And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged," said Clinton. "You know, there is no requirement that anybody vote for anybody. They’re just like super-delegates."

Hillary previously hinted at such a strategy about two weeks ago, while over a month ago the campaign had to deny reports that they would attempt such a thing.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/hillary_pledged_delegates_just.php

[crispini]

61. Yes, they can switch.

In our state they were very careful to point this out at delegate training.

[Gman]

124. Depends on the state

in some states they could be prosecuted.

[jasmine621]

148. This guy was under tremendous pressure from his district which is primarily black.

Lots of fairly well-off blacks live in Prince George's County, MD. Well educate too.

[CoffeeCat]

189. I am a pledged delegate...

...and we can do whatever we want.

I'm an Obama delegate, but if I wanted to switch to Clinton, no one could stop me.

Pledged delegates can throw their support to whomever they choose, once they get to the convention.

[Tesha]

92. Quick! Buy more Pledge!

Whoops! No money! Credit card declined!!!

Tesha

[skyounkin]

184. LMAO!!!

[Apollo11]

2. It's a shame this guy couldn't wait until June 4th

Maybe it's the way I was raised, but kicking a lady while she is down is not my idea of class.

[lisa58]

35. Is it kicking her when she's down or...

...gently walking her to the door?

[Igel]

179. Some don't see a difference.

For them, "gently walking a woman to the door" involves kicking and humiliating them if possible.

[Window]

40. I imagine the party is becoming quite anxious to get the primary resolved

as soon as possible in order to begin working on McWar.

[Heather MC]

49. IF SHE WAS A MAN WOULD IT BE ALRIGHT???

Let's face it if Hillary was a man, HE would have been pushed out long ago. She can't agree that she has "testicular fortitudes" but then not want to be treated like "One of the guys"

[Apollo11]

60. I disagree with pushing out candidates while some States did not vote yet.

Whether it is a man or a woman, black or white or whatever.

I also agree with all of those folks below who are saying that pledged delegates should go with the candidate they are pledged to support, as a way of respecting the voters who voted for them.

In the extreme case that a pledged delegates decides to jump ship and switch sides - while I disagree with it in principle - if someone feels that they absolutely HAVE to switch teams before the Convention - then I wish they would at least keep their mouth closed until after all the States have had a chance to vote and every voter has had a chance to express a preference.

[yardwork]

79. This is politics, not a tea party.

If you want to object to kicking a person while they're down, that's one thing. But don't treat Hillary differently because she's a woman. That's insulting to all women.

[Dinger]

82. A "guy", What A Surprise!

It's a man's world, and apparently it will stay that way for a looooong time.

[iamthebandfanman]

93. what if shes kicking

and biting you while shes down there?

[Megahurtz]

152. Hahahahaha!

[cliffordu]

94. BWAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH

:rofl:

Fuck, man that's funny.

[Chulanowa]

101. Ladies don't get involved in politics.

It's a very rude and unbecoming career choice that always ends up with someone covered in shit.

[hisownpetard]

109. "Lady"? Who said anything about a "lady"?

[Sam Ervin jret]

134. Hillary is not a "lady" she's a woman. And as one myself I'd say stop patronizing.

It may seem like you're being polite or gentlemanly but what it does is reinforce the idea that in some way a woman needs to be handled in a more gentle manner because of their fragile nature.

Does Hillary seem fragile to you? I think not.

She has fought a long tough fight. At the end she needs to be respected for that.

Sorry to jump on you for this, as it may seem a small matter in the context of the whole discussion but I thought it needed to be pointed out.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

137. its "reverse kitchen sink" strategy

its hoisting her on her own petard..

[Alcibiades]

187. But today she wins West Virginia

Which we are told by her campaign will sweep the Clintons back into the White House. So it's hardly a "down" day for her.

[CarbonDate]

3. Karma.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/10/hillary-clinton-pledged-_n_90697.html

"It doesn't look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they're all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose. Even elected and caucus delegates are not required to stay with whomever they are pledged to. This is a very carefully constructed process that goes back years, and we're going to follow the process."

She shouldn't have opened her mouth about poaching pledged delegates.

[Cieran]

13. Open mouth. Insert foot. :D n/t

[VeraAgnes]

22. Too bad for that stupid delegate.

He/she will now be replaced. They can not switch their pledge. They had to of been picked pre-primary! This supporter should of tried to get in at the Obama table pre-primary.

[Kokonoe]

53. I agree, I think its just more from the rove playbook of confusion.

Its not like the pledged delegates actually vote.
They can be for anyone they want, but it does it change the official results.

[Tesha]

100. There may not be a mechanism to replace the delegate.

In most states, what are elected are slates of
delegates (by name). It is *ASSUMED* that these folks,
who are usually big-time partisans for their candidates,
will be faithful to their candidate, but there probably
doesn't exist any mechanism to replace a faithless
delegate.

That this guy is willing to turn against his candidate
is a sign of just how far things have gone, and how many
people wish not only that it was now over but that it
had not gone this far.

Tesha

[LiberalFighter]

136. I don't believe there is a mechanism to replace once they have voted the delegates

Each candidate can accept or reject anyone running as a national delegate supporting their candidacy. If a delegate candidate is a Obama supporter and runs as a Clinton delegate then Clinton can reject that person.

[Exultant Democracy]

153. That pledged delegate was elected to be a delegate in the primary .

No one can overturn that election so he will be seated at the convention.

[CoffeeCat]

190. I'm not sure of the specifics in the switcher's state...

...but in my state, pledged delegates can switch at any time in the entire process.

For instance, let's say I caucused for Obama, and I decide a month later that I want
to support Hillary Clinton. I can show up to our County Convention (where the delegates are
counted) and stand as a delegate for Hillary.

Or...if could continue to support Obama all the way until the Convention, and then suddenly, if
Hillary makes some awesome speech and Obama is caught making out with Chris Matthews behind
a podium, I could switch to Hillary.

Pledged delegates are free to switch--at any time. They are not replaced if they switch.

That's my general understanding of pledged delegates, and I thought this was the case in each state.

[Politicalboi]

4. Eat Crow Hillary

Yes pledged delegates can change their vote. But I am sure this is not what she meant.
:rofl:

[jeff30997]

5. Lol.

But rest assured that she will stay the course.:)

[gbrenna]

28. Why?

The race is lost.

[jeff30997]

173. Of course it is.

I know it and you know it too but HillyBilly will go on at all cost,causing as much damages as

possible.Just like Chimpy.That's why I said She'll Stay the Course.:)

[Usrename]

6. Oh my!

:rofl:

[pjt7]

7. I'm starting to wonder if she will make

it into next week.

[Usrename]

11. Why wouldn't she?

She don't need no steenking delegates!

[dkf]

8. Hillary says its ok for pledged delegates to vote for whoever they want.

Obama says pledged delegates should vote for the person they pledged for. Ergo, Hillary's pledged delegates are free to roam and Obama's will stick to him to fulfill the purpose they were appointed to.

They are only following the advice of their respective leaders.

[hokies4ever]

24. I love this logic

Assuming that the pledged delegates follow the philosophy of the candidate they've pledged to, Hillary is screwed!

[LiberalFighter]

138. And Obama supporters were making a big stink about the delegate process

All because too many people on this board don't understand the process themselves.

Just remember, those that are now gloating about Hillary losing delegate support it could reverse itself between now and the convention.

The reason behind the process is to allow the delegates to switch their support should there be an incident that tarnishes a candidate to the point that everyone shuns them or a more viable candidate shows up before convention time. Or even a broker convention resulting in someone other than the 2 remaining candidates being nominated.

And for the record this is not an election to be decided by the voters in the primaries and caucuses. It is an election to be decided by delegates who are party activists. Preferably mostly by the volunteers that spend their free time campaigning for local, state and national candidates on a regular basis.

[hokies4ever]

159. That's a lonely limb nobody is going to venture on

Why oppose the next President of the USA and go down infamously in history this way?

[KSinTX]

123. Fascinating perspective, and sadly a little too true

Scorched earth leaves a horrible stench.

[Igel]

180. But since Obama supporters loathe the idea of a pledged

delegate being faithless--there was great outrage at the idea of a BO delegate going turncoat--shouldn't they stick to their principles and argue the man should stay loyal, at least through the first vote.

I mean, saying it's a moral wrong to leave Obama's team and ok to leave HRC's ... what principle is that?

Oh, yeah. Partisanship: If it helps me, it's right, otherwise it's wrong. I forgot that for many, that's a lofty principle.

[Zhade]

183. I'm willing to forgive them for abandoning a proven compulsive liar.

Granted, I support Obama, but I suspect I'd feel the same even if I didn't. I don't think liars like her should prosper.

[Alcibiades]

188. I showed no outrage

Lots didn't. This isn't a big problem. Rarely happens, and when it does, it's never the deciding factor.

"If it helps me, it's right, otherwise it's wrong."

That's been the Clinton motto from the moment she announced, if not before.

[ashrob123]

9. This is fuckin huge

but I'm sure she will stay the course. I'm proud to be a Marylander!

[marylanddem]

77. Me too! Jack Johnson rules.

[David__77]

10. Wow!

Clinton perfectly set up this scenario, but never imagined she'd be on this end of things.

[Zachstar]

12. With even the delegates falling apart I just can't see how Clinton can keep it up beyond today.

[skyounkin]

15. Ugh.....

I have some respect for the guy but "She ran a great campaign"? In what freaking reality does running off a cliff into an erupting volcano equate to great? Sure, visually it's probably stunning but really- you don't want to be anywhere associated with that.

[skyounkin]

16. Ugh.....

I have some respect for the guy but "She ran a great campaign"? In what freaking reality does running off a cliff into an erupting volcano equate to great? Sure, visually it's probably stunning but really- you don't want to be anywhere associated with that.

[NM Independent]

17. K&R

If that isn't Karma backfire, then I've never seen it.

:evilgrin:

[Doug.Goodall]

18. The candidate for the Democratic Nomination is now plainly obvious to all

Hillary needs to end this farce so we can support our candidate Obama and get on with the business of defeating McCain.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

19. This is just wrong

Pledged Delegates breaking faith with the voters they pledged to support? Dean should dope-slap this a**.

This is disenfranchising the voters. It sets a bad precedent. It breaks a trust. He should be bounced from the party and not allowed to run for dogcatcher (no disrespect to animal control officers intended).

[Cieran]

21. Telling voters their election won't count...

then retroactively trying to count it because you win unopposed is what disenfranchises voters.

[hokies4ever]

23. Hillary was the one who said that there's no such thing as a pledged delegate

Ain't karma a bitch? :rofl:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

27. I know it's funny

especially since I support BHO, but still, pledged is pledged.

And it's not like his vote is going to affect the eventual outcome. He should vote for Hillary, like his constituents elected him to do, then applaud like crazy when Obama is nominated.

I know Hillary said there's no such thing as "pledged". This is just one more thing she's wrong about.

[WHAT]

144. one person, as a "test case", is ok...

I'm an Obama supporter, also, and was chagrined when Hillary implied that pledged delegates could switch. It reminded me of the Michigan and Florida cheating. I think this is a form of cheating, also, but I want to hear what the Clinton campaign says. In that it might force a response, I think it's ok.

[hokies4ever]

181. Can't wait to hear Hillary's spin on this

no doubt they'll claim that it's good news, since it now means that all of Obama's pledged delegates are in play. :rofl:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. I agree. But it's been Clinton supporters that have been saying there is no such thing as pledged

delegates.

[ashrob123]

32. I would agree with this

if the overwhelming majority of his county went with Clinton. But since he's moving with the will of his constiuents I think that it only makes sense.

[Window]

43. Bull.

The tactics used in this entire primary has set a bad precedent.

[krkaufman]

72. Yes, I agree that it is wrong. Which is why I also thought it abominable ...

... that Sen. Clinton was promoting such behavior by pledged delegates.

[Bake]

83. If it were an Obama delegate switching to Hillary, can you imagine the reaction here?

The howls would ring to the high heavens. There would be calls for his/her head on a stick. He/she would doubtless be accused of racism.

Bake

[movonne]

89. I am an Obama supporter and I would be heartbroken if it was

the other way around...but I do think by now I would have to accept the inevable...

[jgraz]

161. Can you not see that the two situations are not equivalent?

Switching TO the presumptive nominee is a no-brainer. Switching FROM the presumptive nominee to a proven loser requires some other motivation.

[Bake]

165. It's all a matter of whose ox is being gored.

That's what I see.

Personally, I think as far as PLEDGED delegates go, it's WRONG regardless of the direction of the defection. The VOTERS (whose will the Obamatrons worship as long as it favors Obama) instructed them to go to the convention and vote a certain way. This particular delegate is saying "Screw that." It would be wrong if it were an Obama delegate switching to Hillary, and it is wrong in this case as well.

Bake

[YvonneCa]

154. This is one party choosing its nominee..

...they can do it any way the party chooses. They don't even have to have primaries or caucuses...but they do, to get input from voters.

[lojasmo]

20. But, but, West Virginia!

Schaudenfreud seems like it's not acutally schauden.

[Bake]

85. If you're going to try to impress people with big words

It helps if you spell and use them correctly.

"Schadenfreude"

Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: German, from Schaden damage + Freude joy
Date: 1895
: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/schadenfreude

Bake

[lojasmo]

119. That was not my intent.

Try this: "my candidate lost"

thanks for playing.

[Bake]

120. Your candidate may win the battle but will lose the war.

Thanks for playing.

Bake

[lojasmo]

122. Prognostication isn't your strong suit.

Ciao.

[Ian_rd]

26. Rules or not, this is bullshit.

Johnson should respect the will of the Democratic Party voters. It's wrong for Hillary to encourage pledged delegates to switch, and it's wrong for her own pledged delegates to switch to Obama.

[Heather MC]

50. I agree, it's wrong, but SHE introduced the fact that it's legal, so she only has herself to blame.

[Ian_rd]

54. I think Obama should openly encourage pledged dels to stick to their "pledge"

But leave it open that if Hillary convinces some to switch then he will start to seek them as well. He does not need pledged dels to switch.

[Heather MC]

63. Obama shouldn't do anything, this is HER mess to clean up. She put it out there it's her HELL if...

It backfires. As long as he is not incouraging delegates to switch, It's not fair to say Obama should say anything about this, Hillary put the idea out there that's it's ok to switch.

[Megahurtz]

157. Right.

:rofl:

[Bake]

86. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Doesn't matter who started it.

But then, anything to win, right?

Bake

[Ian_rd]

167. Thank you. I was pissed when Hillary floated the idea.

Just because it has just occurred in favor of my preferred candidate doesn't change my opinion of the matter.

[Bake]

170. See? Hillbots and Obamatrons CAN agree!!

(Actually, that's addressed to everyone else here ... LOL)

As a "Hillbot", I didn't like that b.s. about pledged delegates switching sides either.

:hi:

Bake

[Towlie]

30. The ships are leaving the sinking rat!

[usregimechange]

31. If he is pledged to her he had better vote for her

[stlsaxman]

36. Absolutely right. Fair is fair.

Pledged delegates MUST stick with the voters they represent.

it ain't about "payback" it's about an honest nominating process.

[lisa58]

33. That's a big one!

[onehandle]

34. Headline is not correct for story. More than 4 paragraphs.

Rules are apparently just for our friends who support Hillary.

[TZ]

37. For those of you not familiar with Maryland politics

I don't think this is indicative of a wave of anything. Jack Johnson is someone I have never liked. He always wants to be on the winning side, and will say and do anything to be there. Since his county PG went heavily for Obama he is looking to make himself look good to his voters.
This has less to do with national politics and more to do with a local politicians ego, IMHO.
Oh and as and FYI..I am an Obama supporter and voted for him in the Maryland primary.

[AnnieBW]

175. I second that!

Johnson is an idiot. Crime is worse in PG County since he's been in office. Our schools are a joke. If I had kids, I'd move to MoCo or Howeird in a heartbeat. The good thing is that he's on his second term already, so we won't have him sticking around screwing up PG any more than it already is.

Oh, and even though I'm an Obama supporter, I don't like what he did. But, it's par for the course with him.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

38. OH MY GOD!!!! I have been calling my MD superdelegates!!

I used to live in PG County and had been calling the governor's office, Sens. Mikulski and Cardin, because Obama stomped Hillary in PG County and Montgomery County! This is fantastic. I hope that he is able to convince the senators and the governor--who has been quite a disappointment and is very unpopular. Gov. O'Malley could face a reelection challenge and his unrelenting support for Hillary could mean the nail in his coffin!

This is great news!!

[marylanddem]

76. I still live in P.G. & am delighted with Jack's move.

[high density]

39. Not a good development IMO

And proof that our primary system needs a massive overhaul before the next season.

[Galway girl]

45. Agreed and i support Obama . I don't believe in winning this way

[Vinca]

41. This is stunning . . . and amusing. We should all thank Hillary

for pointing out the rules which indicate pledged delegates can switch.

[Galway girl]

44. I am happy as an Obama supporter but I don't like this development

i was not happy when Hillary brought this idea up of delegates switching . I think this is bad for the system

[npincus]

42. Oh no... the breakdown of order... NOT GOOD

Obama can win with the pledged delegates he has. This kind of precedent is not good.

[rug]

46. If pledged delegates are not bound to a candidate, the count means nothing.

This will go to the Convention.

[Bake]

88. Why waste millions of dollars on primaries anyway?

If the delegates, pledged or otherwise, can vote at the convention for whomoever the hell they want to, why bother with primaries and waste all that money that could be used in the general election campaign? Hell, let's just go back to the old smoke-filled rooms and let the PTB pick our candidates.

:sarcasm:

Once again, the Democratic Party has shown itself to be FUBAR. We are soooooo gonna get our asses handed to us this fall, in an election that should have been ours for the taking. Sigh.

Bake

[dana_b]

112. good point!

If they have no loyalties, then what's to stop either candidate from wooing all of the delegates ("pledged", supers) from now until the Convention? This was not smart. "pledged" delegates should have to stick to their choice. too late now, but hopefully that will change.

[baldguy]

47. And you've got 500 others thinking "I can do that too!"

[Galway girl]

48. I would suggest the party tell the pledged delegates to stay put

[DemsUnited]

51. As an Obama supporter, I think this is really WRONG.

Pledged delegates represent the voters who cast their votes for both candidates, Obama and Hillary, and they should stick with their commitment to represent their share of voters for a specific candidate.

We did have a problem in Virginia finding enough Clinton supporters who wanted to pledge for her at the convention. However, we fully expect all of those who said they'd pledge for her to remain true to that commitment.

So while I cheer each and every super who comes Obama's way, this just feels wrong. I hope the Obama campaign comes out and asks Paulson to reconsider his position.

[mdmc]

56. well, the popular vote is RIGHT

We vote for delegates cause we are too stupid to vote straight up and need a filter (the delegates) to keep power out of the hands of the voters.

Delegates can do whatever the fuck they want. They can all endorse Stephen Colbert, if they wanted.

[Galway girl]

62. AGREED How upset would us o fans be if they broke the other way after O winning them fair and square

What if the lost texas this way

[berni_mccoy]

55. O.M.G. After setting up DelegateHub, She really has Nothing To Say.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

139. LOL great point!!! Berni you are awesome - DelegateHub how ironic!

hehehehehe good memory. There's been so much crap under the bridge, I forgot about
"delegate hub". Thats the end point.

[jmowreader]

57. Riddle me something else, Obama fans...

How come every time Obama picks up a delegate, the headline always reads "BREAKING"? Like it was some sort of huge natural disaster or something? I mean, come on.

[berni_mccoy]

59. Those grapes must be really sour.

[Gman]

65. They're very easily excitable

kind of like kids drinking red pop.

[cliffordu]

97. It irritates you. That's why we do it.

[Megahurtz]

160. *snicker*

[grantcart]

127. First time a pledged delegate has defected from the campaign that appointed him

pretty significant development

[Gman]

64. There are state laws whereby delegates can be prosecuted

for not not voting for whom they are pledged. I'd file the charges.

[brindis_desala]

66. Many in the party still feel loyal to the Clintons

which is why her Supers have been less willing to abandon her. I think this guy is trying to be a hero and take the first incoming fire, but rules are rules.

[Tarc]

67. Hrm weren't the Obamaniacs here shouting awhile ago about Clinton's plot to move pledged delegates?

Carrying on and on about how inherently unfair it was as those pledged delegates were won fair and square via elections? And now y'all are cheerleading one of Clinton's pledges jumping ship? Why shouldn't this person be held to the same standard; vote for who you're pledged to?

This is like cheering an Electoral College voter who jumps ship, it would be a serious breach of the idea that an elector represents the will of the people of their state. No different than this.

So c'mon Team Obama, let's see a show of fairness and honesty for once; condemn the actions of Mr. Jack B. Johnson.

[stevietheman]

71. I think many of us are saying Johnson should stay put. n/t

n/t

[marylanddem]

78. I say Welcome Aboard, Jack.

[stevietheman]

107. But it's improper for a pledged delegate to do this. I don't want Obama getting an ill-gotten...

delegate, even though I support Obama.

[dana_b]

114. not all of us are cheering, tarc.

I think it's a bad move. stick to whom you are pledged to. that's it.

[lakercub]

156. you're not reading

a whole lot of people are doing exactly what you want. And many more are simply pointing out that she has been hoisted by her own petard. There are a few that have been out and out in favor of this...but not that many.

I suspect most Obama supporters believe this is wrong, but they can't help enjoying the irony. I know I can't.

[jonestonesusa]

158. You know, Tarc, there is a fair amount of condemnation already on this thread

from Obama supporters.

So where was Clinton Nation when every conceivable strategy, from rescinding the FL/MI DNC pledge to the kitchen sink, was being trotted out to win delegates, including this identical strategy on pledged delegates?

Clinton Nation was hoping the kitchen sink strategy would win out since H-Clinton has not gained enough support from voting Democrats and party delegates to win the nomination.

As for my direct response to your concerns: while I have never supported unfair play in this contest for the Dem. nomination, and being no less honest personally than Team Clinton and Clinton Nation, I unequivocally and publicly state my opposition to the tactic of undermining pledged delegates before the primary season is over, adding to the concerns expressed by a number of Obama supporters on this thread.

Now, where's your condemnation of H-Clinton's tactics?

[TroglodyteScholar]

174. As far as I can tell...

...this is not something that Obama actively brought about.

Hillary, on the other hand, was more than willing to suggest that pledged delegate defect to her camp.

Fair? No. Good for the party? Who knows. But Hillary is the one with a history of defending a delegate's right to tell the voters "go to hell."

[harun]

68. Tidal waves coming. Hillary supporters better get in their life boats.

The Super's and regular delegates are going to shut this thing down (and for damn good reason).

They know they can't trust Hillary not to race bait right up to the convention.

[Megahurtz]

162. Your post is spot on.

[stevietheman]

70. As an Obama supporter and a supporter of democracy, Mr. Johnson should stay put with Hillary.

Pledged delegates should absolutely represent what the electorate decided.

[gristy]

73. I completely agree

This is a stunning development.

[npincus]

74. Agreed, 100%.

[Lochloosa]

81. Agree, at least for the first vote.

After that......

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

84. Many of you are missing the point!

Obama won PG County by a HUGE margin. Jack Johnson's switch to Obama thus reflects the wishes of his electorate!

[dana_b]

116. then why didn't the goof vote appropriately in the first place?

I mean honestly, does it take a PHD to be a delegate? You are right, he should vote for Obama if his county voted for Obama, I just don't understand why these fools sometimes make such stupid moves.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

130. He pledged to support her *before* the primary took place...

Once he realized that a large majority of his constituents went for Obama, I guess he felt obligated to vote the same way. Since he's not a superdelegate and therefore doesn't essentially vote TWICE, he probably figured that he should switch.

I should also say that Jack Johnson is very unpopular. Like Al Wynn who lost overwhelmingly to Donna Edwards, Johnson probably reasoned that his job is on the line, and for good reason. Al Wynn was just an arrogant DLC scum who felt entitled to his seat...that his black constituents were just going to keep voting for him because of his skin color. He was so wrong and felt that voters wouldn't hold him accountable for his DLC allegiances. Donna Edwards brings a fresh, new, and progressive perspective to Congress. I was overjoyed when she won!! She pummeled Wynn, too!!

[Krashkopf]

96. I thought that "pledged delegates" were obligated to vote for . . .

their candidate on the first ballot at the Convention. If Johnson can't do that, he should step down as a delegate and let a Hillary delegate go to Denver in his place.

Fair is Fair,
An Obama Supporter

[marylanddem]

75. Way to Go, Jack

As one of your Prince George's constituents, I salute you for this bold and courageous move. Obama deserves all the support we can give him at this critical time.

[Megahurtz]

163. Yes!

[kwassa]

199. Jack Johnson is nothing but a sleazeball political opportunist.

Regardless of who he supports, the man is a sleazeball. He is doing nothing but building his own buddy-system political machine in PG County.

and all African-American politicians supporting Hillary are getting huge pressure from their constituents to support Obama, too.

[ToughLuck]

80. Rational reason(s) do not seem to be in Clinton's vocabulary,

I heard her daughter is campaigning in Puerto Rico, where voting does not take place until early June..looks like Hillary is still in.

[BlooInBloo]

87. I'll be damned - there really IS no such thing as "pledged delegates"!

My apologies to Team Clinton on that single issue.

:rofl:

[Pawel K]

90. Why do the rules allow for pledged delegates to switch? Am I the only one that thinks thats stupid?

[TBF]

98. They can switch either way.

[Pawel K]

102. Yes, but why?

What a stupid system. If people voted for someone nobody has a right to change that. Why is this entire process so complicated?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

104. Sometimes things happen before the convention which make it necessary

Such as a candidate dropping out and tossing their support behind another person. While that doesn't mean the delegates have to switch it's usually leads to the majority of their supporters wanting to back the endorsed candidate rather than be irrelevant. There are other scenarios where a candidate may become so embroiled in scandal, or have proven themselves to be a totally unacceptable, which could lead to an exodus of their supporters to another candidate. In such cases it's usually not frowned upon.

Edit: Added a C to scandal...it makes more sense than being embroiled in sandals. :rofl:

[BattyDem]

108. I glad you fixed the typo

There's nothing worse than a political sandal! ;-)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

147. They do tend to vote Democratic though

Even if they're a tad elitist.



:P

[SoDesuKa]

192. Sex Sandals

For some reason I don't associate Birkenstocks with sex.

[electron_blue]

111. Therefore, all delegates are superdelegates, it seems. Beholden to no one ultimately.

[TBF]

113. sure they are - beholden to voters

vote the bastards out if you don't like them. The problem is apathy. Hopefully this election will help with that. An election of McCain vs. Obama should pull people off the sidelines. They have extremely different world views.

[BattyDem]

91. I don't like the idea of a pledged delegate switching sides.

I was furious when Hillary "suggested" that Obama's delegates could switch to her. I felt like she was trying to interfere with the integrity of the process. I don't care if the rules allow it - it's wrong. What's the point of having "pledged" delegates if they don't have to honor their pledge?

HAVING SAID THAT ...

Right now, I look like this: :evilgrin: Hillary said it was okay for pledged delegates to vote for whomever they choose. Her delegate listened to her.

Karma's a bitch! :rofl:


On edit: Seriously ... I think this rule should be changed. They shouldn't be able to switch until they are released. At the very least, they should have to wait until after a first round vote at the convention. If the nominee isn't clear after the first round, then let them switch if they want to. JMHO

[iamthebandfanman]

95. finally , someone doing whats best for the party

versus what they want for themselves.

[BattyDem]

99. Even though I don't like the idea of pledged delegates switching ...

I do respect the man for putting the best interests of the party ahead of his own wishes. :-)

I think the rule should be changed, but at the moment, the rules allow him to switch ... and he voted his conscience. I commend him for that. It couldn't have been an easy decision.


edited: typo :blush:

[CaptJasHook]

133. Sorry, I disagree that this is in the best interest of the party

In the long run, people need to trust that their vote counts for something. The pledged delegates are supposed to represent the will of the people. It is the express job of the Super delegates to provide the flexibility to change the landscape for the good of the party.

If this is allowed to stand, I can no longer call myself a Democrat, because the Democratic party will no longer be Democratic.

[BattyDem]

145. I agree that the rule should be changed and they shouldn't be allowed to switch.

I said that in both of my posts. However, I think this man believes he's doing the right thing. If nothing else ... at least it will draw attention to the fact that pledged delegates can switch (which I didn't know until Hillary mentioned it) and maybe the DNC will be pressured to change those rules.

[CaptJasHook]

150. Got it.

I also see the irony. I have always been under the impression that a pledged delegate is... well, pledged to vote how his district voted. Thank Hillary for opening up all of our eyes to this BS.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

103. I don't agree with his doing this. Here's why.

I was our Delegation Chair and I worked hard to make sure that the ones seated to the convention would represent the candidate their chosen supporters had picked. Unless the majority of those who supported a delegate were to change their minds I don't think anyone should change their position. It just seems wrong to me.

[pdxprog]

105. I agree it doesn't seem like a good move

Count me another Obama supporter who thinks this sets a bad precedent.

That said, given that Hillary dredged this up as a strategy free for the following, Johnson's having done this will have been worth it if party leaders respond quickly by telling him to stay put through the first round of voting.

[Pab Sungenis]

106. Shouldn't happen.

He ought to be pulled and replaced with an alternate.

I'm sorry, I'm supporting Obama, but pledged delegates are supposed to be just that: pledged on the first ballot to vote for whom they claimed at election time.

[Crowman1979]

110. Hillary, please do the right thing.

And become the US Attorney General. I want her to go after those contractors. :D

[TBF]

115. I agree - put her in charge of Justice and let her go after Bush/Cheney -

then we really would see some great karma.

[Liberty Belle]

117. I learned about this when voting for delegates in CA.

Here the rule is any registered Democrat could show up to vote for either Obama or Clinton delegates to the DNC (but not both). Elections were held in each Congressional district.

I voted in the Obama caucus, and with many delegate candidates to choose from, I made sure to choose people I knew who had been working hard for Obama, preferably in leadership roles, to avoid picking a "plant" or a waffler who could be easily swayed to change their vote.

[LiberalFighter]

143. I am a Clinton supporter

But figuring at this time Obama should win the nomination unless something happens before then.

But, you are right about how to vote for the delegate. Vote for the person(s) that you know were working hard for Obama's campaign. I don't agree with preferably leadership roles. There may be more worthwhile supporters that worked their buns off for Obama/Clinton and should be a delegate then some wahoo elected official that just talks supporting a candidate but not much else.

Also, the process allows for each candidate to refuse someone to run as a delegate as one of their supporters if they are suspect. Or to accept. But it is a two step validation process electing the delegates with the state delegates being the 2nd step.

Where I am at we are discussing electing delegates that are not in the major county because our county has dominated the available slots in the past. The only problem is that the other counties need to get together and come to an agreement on the 2 delegates for each camp they will put up. Otherwise, their votes will be splintered.

[MindMatter]

118. Dean and Obama should denounce this immediately

Obama doesn't need pledged delegates to break their pledges. That destroys the integrity of the system.

Clinton is the one with the Shenanigans. Obama shouldn't be involved in any of that. He should be above that level. This is a terrible precedent.

[johnlal]

121. That's not right

I'm for Obama. I will never support Clinton. But, those who voted for her should have their voices heard at the Convention. A pledged delegate should cast his vote as the voters tell him to. Otherwise, why do we even bother to vote?

[quakerboy]

125. I don't like it

Pledged delegates should stay put. At least through a first convention vote. After that, I see them as fair game to do whatever they want.

At the same time, the fact that Clinton strategy is coming back to bite at home is rather... amusing. If she had not opened that door, would this have happened?

[HEyHEY]

126. Could we please get a semi-colon or a dash after the "breaking"?

[CaptJasHook]

128. This is a revolting development

I was aghast that Hillary would try to change pledged delegates against the will of the people and I am outraged that this pledged delegate would attempt to change his vote. It throws trust right out the door. I certainly hope the rules do not allow him to do so.

We have had enough unDemocratic shenanigans in our supposedly Democratic party. Let's not hold this traitor up as some hero.

Hillary should be despised for this tactic as should this Jack B Johnson. Let us not all become hypocrites.

[DWilliamsamh]

129. Well I don't agree with this move....

But I do find it ironic that a few weeks after the Clinton campaign put the idea out that pledged delegates could do what ever they wanted and that they were fair game for poaching, that this pledged delegate is calling for the use of that meme to finally drive a stake into the heart of her failed campaign.

That being said, I hope the Gov. of Maryland tells this guy to sit down, shut up, and play by the rules. I have been advocating nothing less for the whole primary season.

[satireV]

131. If Jack Johnson does indeed turn coat

he will be ending his political career.

He will never be a delegate ever again by not going with how the delegates were suppose to go. He may help get Obama the nod, but he would be persona non-grata in any future selection process.

I doubt he could even be re-elected the County executive again because the local Dem party would never be able to trust him again.

this would be true if he was going from Obama to Clinton or vice versa.

edit: removed super

[CaptJasHook]

132. Important distinction, he is not a Super delegate he is a pledged delegate, nt

[LiberalFighter]

142. Only the following are "super-delegates":

Current Governors, members of Congress.
Current State Party Chairs and State DNC members.
Former DNC Chairs.
Current and Presidents and Vice Presidents.
Former Democratic Leaders of the Senate or House.

If one dies the spot is lost unless their is a replacement as a result of an election. It only applies to Governors and members of Congress getting elected.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

196. Your facts are utterly wrong!

It is the voters who elect county executives and Jack Johnson is very unpopular. I don't think he's going to get reelected anyway. And even if he does, he'll remain a delegate because he voted faithfully for the *party* which is the requirement for delegates. Which Dem he voted for is irrelevant. He could conceivably run again, only this time, as an Obama delegate (if Obama is elected). No one can strip one's delegate status because he vote for the wrong Dem. That's not what the MD rules state.

[dbonds]

135. Pledged delegates should stay pledged to who they were elected for.

I'm not a Clinton fan, but until she drops out I think her pledged delegates should stay with her. They are free to urge her to drop out though.

[berni_mccoy]

141. You Do Realize Clinton has been trying to steal Pledged Delegates don't you?

She set up a website called Delegate Hub (www.delegatehub.com) to convince them that they do not have to stay with the voters in their districts.

[dbonds]

149. I do, and this is karma but...

we can't say it is unfair for delegates from Obama to switch to her if we are not consist for the converse - even is she thinks its okay.

[cui bono]

171. Wow! I missed the hub!

That's so wrong.

Whoa.... even on the home page she is accusing Obama of trying to manipulate the delegates! Sheesh.

As more voters make their choice for the Democratic nomination, there is growing interest in the facts and myths about the race to reach 2209 delegate votes - the number required for a candidate to secure the nomination with Florida and Michigan included. The Obama campaign is claiming, without precedent or justification, that automatic delegates (commonly referred to as "super delegates") should switch to Sen. Obama en masse based on arbitrary metrics, with the aim of tilting the delegate balance in his favor. The fact is: no automatic delegate is required to cast a vote on the basis of anything other than his or her best judgment about who is the most qualified to be president.

[LiberalFighter]

140. Johnson is an idiot!

Encouraging Gov. Martin O'Malley and Sen. Barbara A. Mikulski to bring all Clinton delegates to Obama's camp is not within their power.

Only the candidate can release delegates.

To suggest that "superdelegates" should control the votes of pledged delegates would send a bad message to the voters and the delegates to future conventions.

[Deep13]

146. It's 2:12 p.m. now. Is this still "breaking?"

:shrug:
Just wondering.

[grantcart]

151. and how prey tell do you suggest I edit the title?

[Deep13]

155. Do you always answer a question with another question?

Just wondering.

Seriously. I pulled up DU figuring that gigantic earthquake in China would be front-page news. Instead I see one delegate has changed his or her mind. I guess I've resigned myself to the fact my my lady has lost and most everyone else around here has reached the same conclusion. Anyway, that was the basis of my curiosity.

[grantcart]

168. well I am equally surprised and didn't think that this would generate

that much interest and in fact requested several people to post it in GDP


As my relatives live 1 mile from Burma we watch the events in the area with overwhelming sorrow and pray for a coup to end the suffering in Burma

[tandem5]

164. Obama better denounce this development or...

its the opening salvo of a new delegate war. After all the rhetoric about the sacred aura of pledged delegates to give even tacit approval to this action would be disaster. It wont cost him the nomination but it certainly will not help bring about party unity - that's for damned sure!

[susankh4]

166. I'm glad it was a Hill to Obama delegate that set this precedent!

And not the other way around.

Woohoo!! All the way to the convention now! It's gonna be a free-for-all!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[liberalcommontater]

177. I agree with the others who have said this is not a good precident.

And I don't see why Obama supporters are happy. What happens if some switch for Hillary? What if Hillary holds out until the convention and asks the delegates, all of them, to vote their conscience, or to vote for who they think at that moment will win? And they vote for her?! While I would want them to, I don't think it is right. The primaries will truely mean nothing.

I would much rather that the pledged delegates vote how they are pledged and the supers vote for who they think will win. If Obama gets it, so be it. If Clinton gets it, so be it too.

[HuffleClaw]

193. wait till an Obama delegate does the same, they'll FREAK n/t

[susankh4]

195. Exactly!

Which is why I said I was glad the first went from Hill to Obama.

[liberalcommontater]

169. Unless the pledged delegates look at info like this and start defecting to her.

http://my.opera.com/Vorlath/blog/2008/05/09/who-is-the-safe-choice-for-the-white-house

[cui bono]

172. As much as I want Hillary gone, I don't agree with this. I know it's a rule but...

it's a bad rule. This is going to make people feel their votes didn't matter, and we don't need more of that going around. How did the DNC set up such bad rules that seem to work against the voters at every turn?

[Eric J in MN]

176. This is an insult to all voters.

Jack B. Johnson is telling all of us who voted in a primary/caucus, your vote doesn't count because pledged delegates can break their pledge.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

197. Why do you people keep saying that voters will be angry?

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS:

Prince George's County went OVERWHELMINGLY for Obama!! Johnson's decision to switch REFLECTED the wishes of his county!! JEEZ!!!!!

According to the DNC rulebook, pledge delegates CAN SWITCH!!! We may not like that rule, but there it is.

In this case, his switch is warranted and it makes sense!

[lumpy]

198. Exactly. A pledge means nothing apparently.

Beginning to believe that ultimately our votes don't count anyway. Truth, honesty, morally and integrity is out the window in this screwed up nation.

[Bonobo]

186. It's just a flesh wound.

[New Dawn]

191. lol, so much for Clinton's plan to steal pledged delegates

[Zachstar]

194. Bingo!