Taser jolt can cause fatal heart rhythm, probe told

[CHIMO]

Source: THE CANADIAN PRESS

VANCOUVER–The company that sells more conducted energy weapons to law enforcement than any other rushed to market with faulty safety and medical research, claims the head of a company that plans to market a device to compete with the Taser.

Ken Stethem, founder and chairman of Ageis Industries, told the public inquiry into Taser use that Taser International's methodology was flawed in designing, developing and deploying the conducted energy weapons (CEWs).

Normally a company would develop medical and safety data, then test the product on animals and humans, Stethem told the inquiry.

"If there's a person that dropped dead suddenly after Taser application and you can find nothing else on the autopsy, I would venture to say that's due to arrhythmic death."



Read more: http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/423950

---

Time to set the metrics.

[alittlelark]

1. K&R...

[seriousstan]

2. Fall back to the billy club and gun then. Much safer.

[thunder rising]

4. Howabout the MF learn to do their job and quit being lazy, fat assed donut holes.

[seriousstan]

7. You must have been in law enforcement, I mean you know so much about it.

I guess you think they should engage in a fair fight with criminals.

[Riktor]

9. Right...

... every person the cops have ever lit up with a Taser has been a "criminal". Please...

Studies have shown that police training and equipment contribute significantly to the deindividualization of law enforcement, making them far more likely to engage in cruel and sadistic behaviors against ALL citizens, not just criminals. Furthermore, studies have also shown that in categorizing certain weapons as "Non-Lethal", officers were more likely to use them in a liberal manner... thus the change in terminology to "Less-than-Lethal".

Put those two factors together and add in a potentially fatal Taser, and you've got a big problem.

[Th1onein]

12. I call BULLSHIT on this post.

You miss the point. Typical knee jerk reaction.

These cops are tasing people when they should be using their fucking training to restrain them physically, WITHOUT the use of the billy club OR the gun. They're tasing people who are simply loud, or saying things that they don't agree with. And they are tasing them OVER and OVER and OVER again, even after they've been restrained. They are acting as judge, jury and executioner for the ones that die from the tasing, and they are TORTURING the others.

[shadowknows69]

32. Spot on.

[fascisthunter]

82. Good Catch

[CoffeeCat]

3. You know...

...the subject of tasers really, really bothers me.

It simply rocks me to my core. To think that the police can treat us
like cattle, and cause that much pain--is really unimaginable.

People die from these things, yet the cops keep using them.

How many times have we seen cops use them when someone backtalks or
because the cop is angry and wants to punish.

It's so hideous. Every time I think about this reality, I seriously
want to cry.

What can we do to stop?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. I've never seen one used for backtalking.

As a matter of fact it's probably against protocols so if you have seen it you should probably report it.

David

[Riktor]

15. Yeah, and I've never been to Wyoming...

... that doesn't mean Wyoming doesn't exist.

[Th1onein]

16. Where have you been hanging out? Mars? Look at these:

Tasing at U of Florida--this guy was exercising his right to free speech during a political event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

Or how about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

Or this one? This woman is on the ground, handcuffed and gets tased over and over and over again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ3GXLpClD4

Or this Best Buy incident, who was being accused of stealing her own credit card. Ohhhhh! How dare this dangerous criminal ARGUE with a police officer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdCUdR8qNF4

Or this guy, who didn't get his driver's license and insurance out fast enough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RGe8fJ597w

You know, I'm sick of people being tortured by these storm troopers. You need to get informed and get vocal about this kind of abuse, instead of claiming that it doesn't happen.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. You need to quit misrepresenting what I said.

I didn't say it doesn't happen I said I hadn't seen it. Tasers are overused I have stated that in almost every post on this subject. The don't tase me bro guy was trying to get tased. I rarely see people being tased that are complying with officers and never for just backtalk. It's really, really stupid to be non-compliant with a man with a gun and a taser.


David

[Th1onein]

35. Well, NOW you can see it, can't you? And by the way....

Anyone who "hasn't seen it" must be disinterested. It's all over the internet. It happens enough so that I can go on Youtube and spend just five minutes, picking the videos for you, so that you CAN see it. And you ought to be outraged.

But, THERE YOU GO AGAIN! "I rarely see people being tased that are complying with officers and never for just backtalk." REALLY? What are ALL of the videos I just sent to you showing?

And the "don't tase me bro guy was TRYING to get tased"? Are you nuts?

Listen, we should have the right to SPEAK out, to defend ourselves, against unjust treatment, WITHOUT the expectation of getting tased. It's called SPEECH and we're supposed to be able to practice it freely in this country. No one should EXPECT to get tased for arguing with someone. NO ONE.

AND, they're tasing people not once, not twice, but over and over and over again. What is the purpose of that, besides torture? They've got someone subdued, paralyzed, in fact, and they continue to tase them? There's only one reason for that: torture.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. Difference in perception I guess.

I guess some of these officers see your free speech and inability to follow directions as aggressive non-compliance. So take your chances, feel free to exercise your rights, maybe we'll see your video one day.


David

[Th1onein]

42. Ahhhh! A new term: AGGRESSIVE NON-COMPLIANCE!

WOW! What a SPIN!

Give us all a break, okay? There's no "difference in perception" here. Speech is speech. Aggression is aggression. Why would it be considered to be "aggressive" to be pissed off and yelling, and BACKING UP from someone (as in the case of the lady in Best Buy), when they accuse you of stealing your own credit card? Why would it be considered to be "aggressive" when you're standing up and asking a question at a political event? The ONLY "aggression" here is on the cops' part. Period.

It's not a "difference in perception." That's pure and simple SPIN, Fire_Medic_Dave.

It's just plain wrong; and it's just plain torture; and they should, quite simply, be locked up for it.

I realize that some of these cops might be your friends, you being a fire medic and all, but find your conscience in this, and stop trying to spin it.

Oh? And by the way? I will ALWAYS exercise my right to free speech. ALWAYS. Taser or no taser. And if you ever see MY video on youtube? Know that the person who did the tasing will pay for it for the rest of their natural lives. It will follow them to the doors of hell. And so will I.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. Not my perception, not your perception.

The cops perception. If these people feel their rights were violated they have many options to pursue. I do have a few cop friends and I know some cops who are jerks and shouldn't be cops. I have said repeatedly here that tasers are overused. I have said repeatedly that I think that use of a taser should generate the same investigation as a discharge of a firearm. I think that would curb over usage. Having said all that in the real world tasers rarely cause death or serious injury. There aren't any other effective means of dealing with some of these suspects, with the exception of shooting them, that is clearly unacceptable in most cases. That is also far more likely to cause serious injury or death. No one likes getting tickets or dealing with cops. The way many cops are trained increases the level of confrontation instead of diffusing it. Intelligent people know that and proceed accordingly when dealing with the police. For every misuse of a taser there are dozens of appropriate uses that result in no injury. They should though be dealt with on a case by case basis and thoroughly investigated. If you don't want tasers used start where you live and try to get them taken out of service. Let us know if you have any success.


David

[Raineyb]

45. OMG!

Do you not see how dangerous your attitude is?

Police considering "talking back" as aggressive non-compliance? The price of free speech being tasered with the bonus of being humiliated by seeing it on You Tube?

You think this is appropriate?

:wtf:

I guess when the fascists take over we know who to count on to turn us in.

Can it be that the Republicans are right and we as a country are willing to give up our rights that easily?

Regards

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. I didn't say it was.

That's what the police will say though. There are means of recourse, people should use them. Several million dollar payouts by cities will curb their use more than anything. Please read all my posts on this before asking questions that have been answered dozens of times. There are some good posts on this in the gun and health forums go there and contribute to the discussion.


David

[Th1onein]

50. Aggressive non-compliance is YOUR term.

I've heard it used nowhere else. Don't try to write off their bad behavior because their "perceptions are different" or use a stupid term like "aggressive non-compliance." Jesus, how idiotic.

You also don't need to be telling people where to make their posts, friend. We're posting HERE and YOU are posting here, as well. You don't like the fight, YOU get your ass out of the kitchen; don't try to direct US elsewhere.

I doubt very much I'll ever get tased and you know why? Because cops, like most bullies, choose their victims carefully. If they perceive they've got someone who has the money and the brains to drag their asses through very expensive civil litigation for years, and years, and drain their fucking pocketbooks dry, they have a tendency to view the exercise of free speech of these people as just that--free speech. By the same token, if they encounter someone they perceive as helpless in that regard, they perceive this same exercise of free speech as "aggressive non-compliance" and have themselves a taserfest.

The facts are that I've shown you FIVE instances, on film, of how cops use these weapons to curb freedom of speech. And that's to say NOTHING of using them to torture people; and to say nothing of the incidences of death by taser. And you're still saying that their use is okay. These WEAPONS are RIPE for abuse, and that's exactly what is happening with them. But that's okay, huh? Cause some cops perceive OUR behavior as aggressive non-compliance. And if we get killed, it's our own fault, because we didn't walk on pins and needles around cops, right?

Such bullshit. Shame on you.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Th1onein]

69. You really would like to use that taser, wouldn't you, David?

You keep on saying shit like that--are you dreaming of using the taser, David?

And, listen to your choice of words: "law enforcement ARSENAL." Jesus Christ! You've got it bad, babe. Oh! And by the way? You just proved my point--the use of the taser sounds good when you're up against the exercise of free speech, doesn't it? Ie., if I keep on saying the things that I'm saying, then it's likely I'll be tased.

God, it's so obvious. What happened? Did you apply for a cop job and get turned down, and had to settle for a medic's position?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Never wanted to be a cop, definitely don't want to use a taser on anyone.

I was a medic in the army so joining the fire department and becoming a medic seemed like a logical thing to do. You don't need to get personal I realize that's what small minded people resort to, but there really is no need.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. You may be interested.

This is my post last week from a taser post in the gun forum.

If they outlaw tasers, police involved shootings will go way up. Pepper spray, mace, etc. are just not effective against some people. Having said that they probably are overused and their use doesn't even generate a supervisor coming to a scene in some locales. I have good friends who are cops that seem to defuse situations that arise and I know other people, a few firemen in particular, that always cause situations to escalate. Gordan Graham told the LAPD that their policy of having 12 people doing background checks and 100 people doing internal affairs was backwards. If they had 100 people doing background checks they would only need a couple of guys in internal affairs. It is probably a fair point.

David


We don't disagree as much as you think. Maybe if we hadn't started the name calling we could have had a meaningful discussion.

[Th1onein]

72. Pay attention, David.

This is from a citizen's group: http://stoptasers.org/learn

Despite police claims that tasers reduce injuries and save lives by providing officers with an alternative to using their firearms or batons, independent studies conclude that tasers are mostly used in situations where police use of lethal force – or even batons, sprays, or hand controls – would never be justified. This means that tasers actually increase the amount of danger to the public, not decrease it. Electro-shock weapons are particularly open to abuse as they can inflict severe pain at the push of a button without leaving substantial marks. Police often subject targets to multiple taser shocks, even while in restraints and often use them against people posing no physical threat, such as against non-violent protesters or simply anyone they perceive to not be heeding a verbal command. Other studies have shown that suspect deaths by gun, or suspect and police injuries have not decreased.

As for turning this personal, David, you started that when you began talking about me, personally, being tasered and videos of it appearing on Youtube. But you can't take it when I dig a little deeper and use the same tactic on you, can you?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. Your first response asked if I was from mars.

Your second response asked if I was insane. If you think that's civil then we have a different definition. As to your point though, what you are talking about is why I suggest that the use of tasers should be treated like a firearm was discharged and be investigated the same way. If these guys had to ride a desk for a week or two while a supervisor and IAB reviewed the case I can assure you that these weapons would be used only when the officer felt they had no other choice. I have stated in this post and in about half a dozen others that tasers are misused and overused. Research would probably show that the deaths related to taser use are related to misuse (see my Taser Death Hypothesis about lactic acid in the health forum). Stopping the overuse and the misuse is what needs to be done. I can't say though at this point that tasers if they are used properly need to be removed from service, that's just my opinion though.

David

[Th1onein]

74. But they AREN'T being used properly, are they?

FACTS, David. THOSE are the facts. And, in fact, the deaths related to their use are mounting yearly. The number of deaths caused by tasers TRIPLED from 2003 to 2005! The fact is that they are being used on the very people who are MOST LIKELY to DIE from their use!

These weapons SHOULD only be used when the officer has no other choice, but instead they are being used because an office feels insulted, or when his authority is challenged. In one case, they even tased a guy who was ASLEEP on his own couch. And, after he showed them identification, and proved that he was in his own home, they TASED HIM AGAIN!

This from the citizen's site: "Police often subject targets to multiple taser shocks, even while in restraints and often use them against people posing no physical threat, such as against non-violent protesters or simply anyone they perceive to not be heeding a verbal command. OTHER STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT SUSPECT DEATHS BY GUN, OR SUSPECT AND POLICE INJURIES HAVE NOT DECREASED. From: http://stoptasers.org/learn

So, here we have a weapon that is often used improperly, on people who are most likely to die from it's use, and which has not shown any advantage in the saving of lives. At what point do we say, "HEY! This doesn't work!" and get these weapons out of cops' hands?

As to the personal crap, someday, hopefully, you will learn the difference between a rhetorical device and a personal attack.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

78. So we agree.

You wrote, "These weapons SHOULD only be used when the officer has no other choice" I agree completely. If they were used properly you would have few deaths and they would provide one last alternative to deadly force. I even proposed a way to lower the usage. A way that might actually work. You do realize that the police will fight you tooth and nail if you try to remove tasers don't you, and they will win. You may though get the political structures agree that oversight is a good thing and the investigations are warranted. Then when the uses decrease to minimal numbers (cops hate being assigned to a desk for a couple of weeks) you might be able to get them removed completely. As to the personal attack, if you think me saying that your chances of you being tased is higher than you estimate, is a personal attack then once again we have a different definition. I am glad though that we were finally able to discuss it civilly, even though we disagree on some points.

David

[Th1onein]

79. We do not agree, David.

You think that tasers have a place in law enforcement. I DO NOT. That's not an agreement.

Your way of lowering usage is to have people damaged by them, and then settling lawsuits. That's crap, David, and you know it. If you know they're hurting and killing people, you take them OUT of the people's hands who are using them. You DON'T depend on lawsuits to curb their use. What a freakin' joke.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. You must not have read my posts.

I said lawsuits would reduce the usage, I didn't say we should depend on them to do so. What I have said now about 6 times was that the use of a taser should generate the same response from supervisors and IAB that a discharge of a firearm does. The officer goes to a desk job while the supervisor and IAB investigate the incident. If that system was in place you would see misuse and overuse drop to nothing and very rare instances of taser use only when it was the last resort using a firearm. The fact that you missed this makes me wonder if you have actually read any of my posts. The point that I thought we agreed on was you saying, "These weapons SHOULD only be used when the officer has no other choice" Which is why I qouted you? It is in that limited use that I believe tasers should be allowed to be used. Police misuse guns sometimes also. I don't believe they should be disarmed. Stop the misuse and the overuse, prosecute or fire the officers that do it.

David

[Th1onein]

85. I read your posts. We do not agree, David.

What you want to do is let the carnage continue and only investigate AFTER the fact. Not good enough.

We don't need yet another lethal weapon out there and a taser is a lethal weapon. Not in all cases, but in enough cases that it's use should be outlawed.

And, by the way, I don't think cops should use guns, either.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

86. Ok then.

That takes care of it.

David

[143tbone]

53. For those that think only criminals get tased. Thanks for your post.

I know of a fellow activist/vet who was tased three times after he was down and contained. And this was when he was protesting LEGALLY!!! Wake up people. These cops are getting really lazy and power hungry and no one is holding them accountable. I would love to see info on suits brought against police departments for this illegal tasing. Anyone???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. I would love to see info on suits brought against police departments for this illegal tasing.

As I have stated here today, this is the best way to curb the overuse of tasers.

David

[Th1onein]

76. No, David, the BEST way is to outlaw their use. Period.

You want to WAIT until they've killed hundreds more people, and then have those lawsuits settled and THAT will curb the improper use of tasers? What a laugh! What about those people who have lost loved ones from the use of tasers? What do we tell THEM? Hey! Yeah, your loved one died, but their death curbed the overuse of tasers, so now it's all better and it was worth it, right?

If that makes sense to you, I really do believe you must be from Mars.

[Th1onein]

75. Even the COPS are filing suit against Taser for injuries!

Taser International is being sued by police officers across the nation claiming they were seriously injured after being shocked with the electronic stun gun during training classes. Injuries listed included "painful, permanent and progressive" hearing and vision loss and neurological damage, multiple spinal fractures, burns, a shoulder dislocation and soft-tissue injuries. Many lawsuits, including a few class action suits, have been filed from victims and victim's families for wrongful tasering or death, although Taser, Int. has managed to get many thrown out via legal loopholes.
http://stoptasers.org/learn

I am SICK of the gestapo tactics. SICK of them. You know things have gone too far when cops tase people lying ASLEEP on their own couches!

[superconnected]

81. ?

You haven't been reading the news then.

[shanti]

68. i heard that!

:hug: rocks me to my core too...if they'll tase someone in a wheelchair, a child, or an elderly person, we may as well consider that NOBODY is safe. :(:(

[AzDar]

5. Taser Inc., located here in AZ, is aggressively attacking medical examiners who

cite Taser as a factor in deaths nationwide. They actually forced one M.E.( in Ohio IIRC) to change the cause of death to 'show'
that a Taser was not a factor in the case , as the M.E. had originally declared it was.

Scary, SCARY, shit.

[indepat]

6. It's as if they think if someone is tasered to death, they deserve it for they should not

doing something to get tasered for. Geesh! :mad: :grr:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Okay Captain obvious.

"If there's a person that dropped dead suddenly after Taser application and you can find nothing else on the autopsy, I would venture to say that's due to arrhythmic death."


Really are you sure. If anyone anywhere shocked with taser or not drops dead and you can find nothing on the autopsy, then it's a safe bet to say the cause of death was from a lethal dysrhythmia (proper term, not to correct the cardiologist). Notice how he didn't say the lethal dysrhythmia was caused from the taser. He said it could be if the barbs hit in just the right spot and the shock happened at just the right millisecond. Before you start in on me, I think tasers are overused and are possibly a contributing factor in a fraction of these deaths. Either this doctor or this reporter didn't do their job.

David

[Riktor]

14. Not a particularly logical argument...

It seems highly unlikely a post-Tasering heart failure would be completely unrelated to the application of said device. While many have made the argument the majority of taser-related deaths involved individuals with preexisting medical conditions, the fact remains they were alive before the Taser hit them, and they were dead forever thereafter; the Taser being the operative factor in those deaths.

You could likewise argue the number of Taser-related deaths versus uneventful Taser applications is really quite low. However, this argument is just as easily disarmed. The Taser was designed to subdue without death, thus implying the Taser is to be used in situations where the offender is not engaging in a behavior that is immediately death-worthy. In this sense, the Taser has failed in its application, as it has allowed people to die needlessly.

Futhermore, "arrhythmia and dysrythmia" are interchangeable terms... not to nitpick.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. I said I think they are a contributing factor.

As often is poor health and heavy drug use, often stimulants and have pushed their hearts to extremes by running from police and fighting with the police and police dogs. When someone has taken huge amounts of a stimulant you can't say that the taser is the operative factor. Hard to give tasers all the blame when the suspect smoked 1 gram of crack. It would bet a fair number of these deaths are from positional asphyxia after arrest, of course the 600 lbs of cops aren't laying on them when the paramedics get there. Arrhythmia and dysrhythmia are often used interchangeably, that doesn't mean they are both correct. Again I think tasers are overused and don't draw the same investigation when they are used that a firearm does, which encourages more use. Having said that I would much rather be tased than hit with a night stick. I have posted a bunch of other threads on this recently in the gun and health forums.

David

[Riktor]

52. I would disagree on a few points

1) In the case of stimulants, I would have to say the drugs were the "contributing factor". The fact remains these suspects were not dead until the administration of the Taser. Suggesting otherwise is akin to saying it is the alcohol that kills drunk drivers rather than their car slamming into a telephone pole.

2) Again, the Taser was designed to subdue irrational or combative suspects, i.e. those suffering the effects of drugs, without killing them. If the use of stimulants combined with the application of a Taser leads to death, then the Taser is not a suitable tool for achieving this end.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. Stimulants often cause cardiac arrest.

The doctor was talking about people dying minutes after being tased not being in cardiac arrest immediately after being tased. It's impossible to tell which is the contributing factor and which is the cause.

2) Again, the Taser was designed to subdue irrational or combative suspects, i.e. those suffering the effects of drugs, without killing them.

I agree and in 99% of the cases they do just that. How would a cop know that a suspect had taken large amounts of illegal drugs?

David

[CHIMO]

17. Taser jolt can cause fatal heart rhythm, probe told

"Just because somebody collapses of sudden death minutes later after a Taser application doesn't mean that the two are not connected," said Dr. Zian Tseng, a San Francisco cardiologist and electrophysiologist.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/423950

Cardiac arrhythmia (also dysrhythmia) is a term for any of a large and heterogenous group of conditions in which there is abnormal electrical activity in the heart. The heart beat may be too fast or too slow, and may be regular or irregular.

Some arrhythmias are life-threatening medical emergencies that can result in cardiac arrest and sudden death. Others cause aggravating symptoms such as an abnormal awareness of heart beat, and may be merely annoying. Others may not be associated with any symptoms at all, but pre-dispose toward potentially life threatening stroke or embolus.

Some arrhythmias are very minor and can be regarded as variants of normal. In fact, most people will sometimes feel their heart skip a beat, or give an occasional extra strong beat - neither of which are usually a cause for alarm<1>.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrhythmia

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. "Just because somebody collapses of sudden death minutes later after a Taser application doesn't mea

That statement also means just because somebody collapses of sudden death minutes later after a Taser doesn't mean that the two ARE connected. Mine main problem with this is his testimony talks about barb placement and shocking at a certain point of the heart rhythm. Those would be an artificial P wave being generated on a T wave. While I agree that this phenomenon can cause dysrhythmias. The dysrhythmias from this are almost immediate not minutes later. Like I said it may be the reporter.

David

[CHIMO]

22. Taser jolt can cause fatal heart rhythm, probe told

Stethem disputed several claims made by Taser on medical evidence and safety connected to the device.

He pointed to Taser's patent information that says the device puts out between 100 and 500 milliamps of electricity.

Medical experts say it only takes about 100 milliamps to cause the heart to go into a fatal rhythm, Strethem told the inquiry.

He said medical studies say low voltage electrocutions can happen without any visible evidence of injury.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/423950

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. You realize the guy that said that is the ceo of another taser company right.

The company that sells more conducted energy weapons to law enforcement than any other rushed to market with faulty safety and medical research, claims the head of a company that plans to market a device to compete with the Taser.

Ken Stethem, founder and chairman of Ageis Industries, told the public inquiry into Taser use that Taser International's methodology was flawed in designing, developing and deploying the conducted energy weapons (CEWs).


Those business competitors are always good sources, they never lie.

David

[CHIMO]

28. So Where's

The beef?

Where are all the tests ? Where is the analysis that shows it doesn't cause death?

It's now a negative proof that Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle is a tool not a weapon.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Where's the proof the it does,

by itself with no other factors cause death? Let's see no training deaths, no test deaths, only deaths in the field. That would mean that the subjects that died had something contributing factor in common. I believe they do contribute to deaths on some occasions, never said they didn't.

David

[CHIMO]

40. You Are

Missing the point.

It is the same as GM foods. They want a proof that it is a danger.

The proof is on the maker. Prove it is not dangerous. It should be treated in the same way as a lethal weapon and used the same way.

Prove that it is not dangerous.

Using it should be evaluated the same as a gun, until it can be proven otherwise. Simple.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. They are dangerous.

No dispute there. They are less lethal weapons, they aren't non-lethal weapons. The are very rarely lethal weapons. The same cannot be said of firearms. I believe they are overused as I have stated about 50 times. I believe they are more dangerous when they are misused. I believe they are likely very dangerous when misused in conjunction with a suspect who has used large doses of stimulants, is in general poor health and has strenuously exerted themselves running from police. See my post in the gun or health forum.


David

[kestrel91316]

33. I sure as hell hope no cop ever decides to taze MY sassy ass.

I had a problem for a while with irregular heartbeat - got so bad I had to go to the ER - two weeks of ventricular bigeminy (probably due to viral infection >>> sensitivity to caffeine and/or aspartame). At the time if you'd tazed me I probably would have become a statistic. Even now, though the problem has disappeared (I drink decaf and use NO aspartame), who knows if it could be brought on again by tazing??

Ventricular bigeminy ain't far from ventricular fibrillation, and that can be BAD nasty.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Quite possible.

You would be susceptible to cardiac arrest in this case because your ventricles are already agitated. Hypoxia is probably the biggest cause of PVC's, nicotine probably second and caffeine is probably third. You are correct the bigeminal nature of your PVC's is indicative of a more severe problem and probably not a good time to be stressed seriously by being arrested or worse arrested and tased. I really do think they are overused but I think they can prevent people from being shot which is a good thing.

David

[kestrel91316]

39. Glad I don't have them anymore.........

I also had them years ago when I got thrown by a horse and had internal injuries and spent a week in the hospital. They said the PVCs were from cardiac bruising then......

[jody]

11. Tasers have only been tested on HEALTHY subjects that signed the release form at the link below

http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Controlled%20Documents/Warnings/LG-FORM-VOLUNTER-001%20REV%20B%20Volunteer%20Exposure%20Release.pdf

Tasers have never been tested on pregnant women or people with heart disease or people on prescription medication or any other unhealthy condition that might in the presence of a taser shock contribute to permanent injury or death.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Again my point.

Probably a contributing factor. Just like the drugs and poor health and strenuous activity (running from cops).


David

[jody]

27. If tasers are a contributing factor in some deaths, that must mean the suspect would be alive if the

taser had not been used.

IMO that can only mean tasers should be used when a LEO is in a life threating situation.

Under those conditions, I would expect a LEO would feel safer with a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. I don't disagree with your second point.

Tasers should be used as a last resort instead of a gun, but when killing the suspect is not called for. As far as the deaths go it's hard to say would the suspect that smoked 3 grams of crack have gone into cardiac arrest if he wasn't tased and hadn't sprinted a mile. A lot of people that use that much cocaine die so it's hard to say. See my theory in the gun forum, I believe its worth considering.

David

[jody]

34. You say "but when killing the suspect is not called for" but no one has yet proven that tasers are

NOT-LETHAL on people who are NOT-HEALTHY as defined by the release form required by Taser Intl.

Once that has been proven by appropriate scientific tests, then I will rejoin the ranks of those who advocate LEO using tasers.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. They aren't non-lethal weapons.

They are less lethal weapons. You can't test tasers on non healthy human subjects. So you have a conundrum. If someone can come up with an effective viable alternative I'm all for it. I haven't heard of any taser deaths in prisons, they are used quite often there. I wonder what the difference is perhaps an absence of stimulants in the system an overall better health of the prisoner. That would be interesting to look at. I will make this point, if you remove tasers from LEO, you will stop deaths from tasers, you will increase deaths from positional asphyxia, blunt force trauma and gunshot wounds. You will also increase the costs to municipalities when cops are injured fighting with suspects. I fell on some ice at a fire in 2004, it cost the city that employs me over 100 k for that one fall. The taxpayers pay that. My main problem was with the article. The doctor wasn't saying anything other than it can't be ruled out as a cause, can't be proved, but can't be ruled out. The ceo of the other taser company was saying a lot of stuff. It was bad reporting.

David

[jody]

48. If you are correct that tasers are "less lethal weapons" then how much "less lethal" are they than

"lethal weapons"?

IMO a weapon is either lethal or non-lethal where the lethality is determined by the user, not the weapon.

If that's correct, then tasers have only been tested on healthy subjects and they may in fact be lethal on non-healthy subjects.

The notion of "less lethal weapons" appears to me to be trying to avoid having tasers classified as lethal weapons.

That would require LEOs use tasers under the same department guidelines as used for firearms.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. They are far less lethal.

Probably what 50 uses of tasers every day (that's just a guess) nationwide. We have what 10-20 deaths a year. I think the uses of tasers should be investigated like a firearm was discharged. I don't think the procedures or guidelines should be the same though.

David

[jody]

58. If every time a taser is used, there is a probability the target may die, then why shouldn't tasers

be limited to the same policies of use as firearms?

The only difference is the probability of the target being killed.

Taser Intl. skates around the issue by citing other reports that say tasers are non-lethal.

Bottom line is no one has any idea what the probability of death from a taser is because so far Taser Intl. has used the courts to obfuscate the issue.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. There is a probability that a suspect may die if they are restrained.

Lots of people have died of positional asphyxia when being restrained. Nightsticks have caused quite a few deaths. If the officer thinks deadly force is required then they should use deadly force. Double tap to center mass. Lethality probably around 80-90%. So I wouldn't agree that the removal of tasers is good for anyone. I would like to see increased oversight and punishment of misuse and overuse. I do agree that multiple shocks are probably a bad idea.


David

[jody]

62. Taser says it's up to each agency to establish it's own policy for taser use but how can that happen

if coroners are intimidated by judges to exclude tasers as a contributing cause of death?

I assume current stats show essentially zero deaths where tasers were a contributing factor.

That would support a very relaxed policy versus one where tasers had contributed to several hundred deaths.

:shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. The cases here have both been suspect involved in car and foot pursuits.

Both had huge amounts of cocaine in their system. Cause was excited delirium induced by cocaine overdose I believe. Both began to have trouble 5 to 10 minutes after being tased. I agree the policy needs to be looked at and overuse and misuse needs to be stopped. Sometimes though the tasers probably save a suspects life from preventing them from being shot. Before tasers we had an officer shoot a woman in a wheel chair because she got between him and the door and pulled out a butter knife.


David

[jody]

64. Good point about situations where tasers are a step below firearms. Has any LE agency developed a

model policy for using tasers?

If so, do you have a link?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. I haven't seen one.

I think the biggest problem is that their use often isn't investigated. If a cop knew he was going to have to sit at a desk for a week while IAB and a supervisor reviewed his use of a taser, you can be sure he absolutely had no other choice short of shooting the suspect. That's a simple cheap fix. With reduced use you should see a correlation in reduced deaths. If you didn't then tasers may not have been responsible in the first place. If the deaths decreased then it would give some weight to the animal studies and probably result in policy changes.

David

[jody]

66. Makes sense to me. I've been stressing the fact tasers have been tested only on healthy subjects.

Each death that occurred after a taser was used involved a range of conditions such that the victim could not possibly have sighed Taser Intl.'s release form.

See http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Controlled%20Documents/Warnings/LG-FORM-VOLUNTER-001%20REV%20B%20Volunteer%20Exposure%20Release.pdf

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. On a side note, I appreciate your civility and respect.

I wish the same could be said for some of the other people here.

David

[mac2]

29. DA! Of course they are dangerous.

It is for profit by the Bush, Inc. Follow the money.

[soothsayer]

13. Shocker.

[L. Coyote]

18. BUT, they are HUGE Republican donors!!

[kestrel91316]

19. Well, duh.

"If there's a person that dropped dead suddenly after Taser application and you can find nothing else on the autopsy, I would venture to say that's due to arrhythmic death."

We didn't think it was because the person choked on Tinkerbell and her friends, or developed really fast cancer.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. Exactly my point.

You just made it better,

David

[barnel]

43. not like the guy has a conflict of interest or anything

i mean, it's a competing company

[barnel]

44. It does give an alternative to gunshots

think about it - it's insane to shoot someone dead forever, just to stop them from doing something at this instant

taser gives an alternative

the problem of course, is that it could be used much more than the gun would

but there are cases where the taser can do what the gun would, and the taser gives the subject a second chance

[OKthatsIT]

77. Tasers need to go. Police are out of control.

All police are suppose to call for backup. Enough police to overpower someone, handcuff them and get them into a police car. Tasers have killed 300+ in North America alone.

Maybe if the police treated people with respect, they'd get better reactions. Whenever someone encounters a 'jackboot type' in a stressfull situation, you see the police provoke responses from people, they are threatening, they are violent and they are liars. They arrest people who haven't done anything wrong, making false charges, even claim that you assaulted them...which is a felony. They will do anything to get their bonus points and put you into their felony database.

And we're suppose to feel 'safe' about tasers?? The police have the numbers in their database. How many incidents in total across this country? Is there any oversight at all?

[mantis49]

49. Another death after Taser use just happened

earlier this week in the St Louis area.

[Th1onein]

51. Uh oh! Their own fault! They musta been "aggressively non-compliant"!

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Way to be open minded and judge before knowing the facts.

That's progressive.

David

[fascisthunter]

84. Somebody died... boy that point went way over your head

feeling ok there buddy? "Real open-minded" of you... snort.

Real "Progressive" of you... :eyes:

[raul diblasio]

67. Id' like to see the data

How many people out of say, 1000, die due to Tasers?

[fascisthunter]

83. Yeah... Let's Test Equipment and Wait for Lawsuits

in the mean time... ooops. Another victim has a heart attack. "Oh sooo sorry.... our law enforcement was just trying to protect the public and bring justice to it's streets." Riiiiigggghhhhttttt....

To those feeling this way about tasers: please tase yourselves to your heart's content.