Europe celebrates tearing down of borders

[Divine Discontent]

Source: AFP

PRAGUE (AFP) - Nine mainly ex-East bloc countries on Friday tore down their borders to join a European zone allowing 400 million people to travel from Estonia in the east to Portugal in the west without showing a passport.

"The free movement of people is one of the main rights of human beings," European Commission president Jose Manuel Barrosso said as he hailed the addition of the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia to 15 other states already in the Schengen Treaty zone.

Many European leaders have welcomed the pulling down of internal frontiers as a new sign of the continent overcoming its Cold War division. But many people have also expressed fears of increased crime and illegal immigration.

"From midnight tonight, you can travel 4,000 kilometres (2,500 miles) from Tallinn in Estonia to Lisbon in Portugal without any border controls," said Fico.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071221/ts_afp/eubordersschengen

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How nice. In some ways, I realize this would be a great thing everywhere. Obviously, America as a majority would disapprove of this here, but I think with better controls and better management of situations this could work here in time. I give them kudos for doing it there, at least.

[harmonicon]

1. it used to work here just fine, and still would

That we now have to show passports to go to Canada or Mexico is so amazingly stupid. Again, we've been shown to be going against progress in the world. Hooray for the EU, and shame on us.

[TankLV]

2. Yep - it's gonna take DECADES to restore America to the country I grew up in...

pretty sad state of affairs...

and I fear it's going to get a lot WORSE before it even BEGINS to get better...

[harmonicon]

3. It can get worse? Oh, boy.

[lpbk2713]

11. BushCo has taken us several steps backwards in many ways.

And I'm afriad it will take us a long long time to repair the damage he has done.

[mac2]

10. EU without borders

You do realize they did this without consent of the people? There is no Constitution since they removed their rights so the people said no. The original purpose was to have a common currency (Euro) so business would be easier. Instead they formed a union run by the elite. Meetings behind closed doors and no citizen input.

These government unions are all illegal since they are not democratic (European Union, Asian Union, African Union, S. American Union, Americas union, etc.). It is world government by the few. It is not democratic nor do the people themselves determine their own future.

It's not great! A Americas union is coming here without your input or consent. It negates our borders and Constitution.

[harmonicon]

15. I think you're wrong

There has been plenty of consent - countries have voted whether or not they want to be part of the EU - it wasn't forced on anyone any more than your congressman is forced on you. I used to have the same concerns as you until I really spent some time in Europe post-EU and saw how it was really benefitting people's lives and well being. I also know people who were economically hurt by it, but I've never head them say they'd rather go back and give up what's been gained.

[conspirator]

18. The whole process of globalizatin is driven by the elite. It's good for them

cause they can move their businesses around without burocracy.
For the people it can be good and bad. For instance it's good for the skilled and unskilled workers of pourer countries. Cause they will be able to get better jobs in UK, France and Germany without visas. But it's bad for the middle class of those 3 countries.

[High Plains]

20. Do you actually know anything about the European Union?

You can check it out here: http://europa.eu/index_en.htm

It has democratically elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs).

And it has the Council of the European Union, with representatives from all member governments.

It is hardly the boogeyman you make it out to be. And it doesn't have any black helicopters, either.

[salib]

4. We could do that. Of course, we would actually have to see Mexico as an equal

With Europe, Greece was unable to even spend much of the economic aide that the rest of Europe sent to them in order to "bring them up to the European level." Accounting and responsibility was not at that level in Greece. It is now.

Why? Because, Germans and French and English were willing to not only believe, but put their money behind, the idea that Greece was indeed on a level with those countries.

We do not at all believe that for a second about Mexico.

We can be guilty.

We can be superior.

We can simply be indifferent.

However, we cannot be equals without knowing that we are.

Without that realization, there is no "Free Trade Agreement."

[harmonicon]

5. Sadly, I think you're correct.

I used to think the EU was a bad idea, because it would strip countries of their independence, and therefor create repressed minorities. This summer I was in Europe for months, including 3 weeks at a festival/conference with people from all over. I was amazed at the levels of racism between people from different countries and areas. They don't think they're racists, but they have these notions of genetics being somehow related to culture and personality. The first few times I heard people say people from such-and-such country were all 'x', I thought they were joking. When I realized they were serious I was frightened. Anything that could bring these people together to form an understanding that they're al equal on all levels is a good thing, and would be a good thing for anyone in this world.

[Divine Discontent]

7. thanks for sharing that story... yes, maybe it will encourage understanding n/t

[salib]

8. Huh?

Ok, I will pause.

Huh?

What in the name of anyone does this have to do with what I said?

Yeah, I too have spent a lot of time in Europe.

Again. Huh?

[harmonicon]

9. well, I think a lot of the reasons we don't treat Mexico as an equal....

.... is that we don't treat Mexicans as equals. I think we need to combat racism, and having free movement between our countries could help that. In Europe there is also racism, but people are free to move about and even get employment in different countries, so they now come into more contact with people from other cultures than they did pre-EU. A minority group in one country (Hungarians in Romania, for instance) are now just other people, the same as people from different countries. Nationality just doesn't mean that much anymore. Maybe I just got something different out of our comments than you intended, but it was an association that I made.

[salib]

12. Wow.

I appreciate the deferential approach. I think.

However, it is a weird statement: "well, I think a lot of the reasons we don't treat Mexico as an equal....

.... is that we don't treat Mexicans as equals."

SO, we are racist, but we need to be exposed to each other to... what?

The point I thought I was making, which I still believe has value and MEANING: Europe, while not at all perfect, actually approached the issue of free trade as a relationship among equals. It also recognized that equals did not mean "identical" and was going t o work as hard as it can to "make more equal" ALL of the members of the European Union.

You know. Much like we do in the U.S. You know. Where we make sure that Mississippi has the same education as, say, New York.

OOPS!

OK, we do not even understand sometimes.

[harmonicon]

14. hmm...

be exposed to each other for what is a good question. I agree with you about how they made "free" trade work. As you point out, they put a lot of work into making these countries equal by spreading the wealth around, having strict labor laws that applied to all nations, etc. It would be nice if the whole world could work that way, but I think a big stumbling block is, unfortunately, racism. There are plenty of border towns where fences have harmed the community, which is a shame. I suppose I think it would be nice if we didn't see low wages and poor working conditions as a problem for Mexicans, but as a problem in Mexico (like the disparity in education between Mississippi and New York). A lot of racist talk that gets bandied about as "the immigration debate" is misplaced. Instead of focusing on the people who are coming for the jobs (brown people who speak spanish), we ought to be focused on why they're coming for the jobs. If the laws were same between our countries and we really worked to help each other out, there could be open borders for trade. Being from Michigan originally, where there are a lot of Canadians and cross-border families, I never once heard any complaints about canadians coming over to "take our jobs". Because of the cultural and linguistic familiarity, in part, immigration from there wasn't considered a problem. If we, as a nation, felt as comfortable with Mexicans as we do with Canadians, I don't think people would mind, and I don't think the Mexican worker cold be so easily exploited. I know.... lots of rambling on different points - I hope at least a few of them are clear.

[Adsos Letter]

6. At least they don't have to deal with this anymore...

I remember those days well.

[mac2]

13. Are you sure?

Police states are in every democratic country now. There is no Constitution. The Unions are Fascist states ruled by the few elite and corporations.

[dipsydoodle]

16. without any border controls ?

It's difficult to leave the UK without a passport let alone trying to get in without one. That includes its own citizens. The article, unfortunately, is an over simplification.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Because the UK stays out of the Schengen Agreement

But the majority of Europe is in it. The article does point out that Britain (and Ireland, who I suspect stay out because of pressure from the UK, because they can't enforce passport checks on the land border) aren't part of this.

Just like 'Europe' is often used as shorthand for 'the EU', here it's shorthand for 'most of Europe', with the article explaining the exceptions.

[TheLastMohican]

19. Europe without borders?

What a joke! The Berlin Wall has just been moved a thousand kilometers to the east, that's it.

Now try to get to Poland or Hungary from Ukraine in a car or bus. You will lose at least a day and a half in a queue.
There are huge camps set up on the territory of Ukraine for all those illegal aliens trying to get to Europe - mainly pakistanis, indians and chinese. What to do with those?
And it is good for human-trafficking, drug-trafficking and and illegal arms trafficking.
This article is writter from Prague, God gracious, there are like 500 hookers on every corner or something.

Open borders is a good fair tale but this is just sweeping the dirt under the carpet, pretending no one will look there.

[Divine Discontent]

21. I've wondered such...

there literally could be thousands and thousands of people on street corners begging, pandering, selling, etc, and I've thought, perhaps the EU just ignores all that... sigh... this world.