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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:34 PM
Original message
Murtha finds military progress in trip to Iraq
Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

U.S. Rep. John Murtha today said he saw signs of military progress during a brief trip to Iraq last week, but he warned that Iraqis need to play a larger role in providing their own security and the Bush administration still must develop an exit strategy.

"I think the 'surge' is working," the Democrat said in a videoconference from his Johnstown office, describing the president's decision to commit more than 20,000 additional combat troops this year. But the Iraqis "have got to take care of themselves."

Violence has dropped significantly in recent months, but Mr. Murtha said he was most encouraged by changes in the once-volatile Anbar province, where locals have started working closely with U.S. forces to isolate insurgents linked to Al Qaeda.

He said Iraqis need to duplicate that success at the national level, but the central government in Baghdad is "dysfunctional."



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07333/837824-100.stm
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Murtha--now's the time to say, "time to go".
Much easier to leave Iraq when things are calm.
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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Declare victory and come home
Our troops have done what they went there to do... let's bring 'em home!
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Actually, that's the only test of how well our military tactics worked--
when we go home, what happens? Let's see if the GOP wants to resist an exit strategy still. If they do, then they don't have confidence in the results, do they?
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hey, weinerdoggie - that's actually a VERY shrewd comeback line:
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 12:36 AM by calimary
"Let's see if the GOP wants to resist an exit strategy still. If they do, then THEY DON'T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE IN THE RESULTS, DO THEY?" If it's working, then can't we start bringing our people home? What? You doubt your own progress? You don't think it's enough? Hey, if it's working so well, why can't we just say we've won and go home? It's worked! Mission REALLY accomplished! We REALLY mean it this time! Fer sure! Honest! We did it! We're Done! Time to declare victory AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!!! And there'd be enough worshipping bushbots out there who would swallow this whole, the way they've swallowed everything they've been force-fed by these bastards. They've already proven that they believe what they're told to believe. So let's tell them THIS. The war started on a lie. Why not let it finish that way? If it means we get our troops out of there, and save their lives, their limbs, and their sanity, and a few bucks besides, why the hell not?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. LOL! Let's run with that reasoning then, dammit!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Well, the cool thing about hashing this stuff out here is that these ideas
start to wriggle out from the confines of this-here website. Into people's brains. Onto the tips of their tongues. When they, perchance, might get into a debate with some freeper either over the backyard fence or around the office watercooler, or maybe via one of those obnoxious knuckledragger emails that go around every so often. It's like mental ammo. The more of these clever comebacks we all come up with and refine and share with each other, the better-armed we are to respond to the wrong-wingers and smack their idiocies straight back at them. And sometimes, with astute points to make like yours, it might even make some of 'em think. At least it'll hit home and maybe knock 'em back on their heels for a minute.

They're used to us rolling over and playing dead. Or maybe offer such response as: Please stop!!! Please quit hitting me!!! That's not nice!!! They look at that and sneer and say "FUCK 'nice', chump!" They never expect us to fight back because the track record of our "fearless" leaders up til now has been utterly abysmal. Nobody expects punches actually to be thrown since any punches coming from our side tend to be thoughtfully pulled before they even can start moving. Remember? We're the Dems. We're famous for being invertebrates. We're the doormats of the political world. We never fight back, beyond an occasional one of those fearsome "strongly-worded statements" or one of those ever-popular and oh-so-earthshaking "non-binding resolutions"! Let's throw some PUNCHES, BUT GOOD! Preferably with a couple of pairs of brass knuckles hidden deep inside the boxing gloves, 'eh?

If they fight dirty, and we refuse, WE LOSE. Taking the high road with these people takes you straight over a cliff. Back when everyone behaved as ladies and gentlemen, and Capitol Hill was known as a collegial place where opponents could still do business. Not anymore. They don't play by any rules anymore - except for the cockamamie cheating bullshit rules they make up as they go along. And if we stick to following the playbook when they don't, we lose EVERY TIME.

The beauty of what you came up with, and what other people here are so amazingly clever and witty and smart and nimble-minded at devising, is that it's posted here, and others of us can read it, and maybe if it's catchy enough (or somebody decides to write it down to make it easier to remember), it can and will be hauled out and used effectively to shut some idiot wingnut up before he/she has a chance to take a breath amidst lie-spewing.

This isn't just a mere website. It's a frickin' THINK TANK. And we are all stronger, smarter, more powerful, and more effective because of it.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Sorry, piss poor test. Have we gone home from Germany, Japan, Korea?
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 01:18 AM by seriousstan
We have always had permanant bases in damn near enery coutry we have fought since we were a country.

Vietnam comes to mind.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. We have a permanent military presence in Vietnam? News to me.
We're in Korea to keep tabs on China--it's a nice strategic location. We're not really worried about the North Koreans invading over the DMZ, or about keeping the Koreans from killing each other. We stayed in Germany to help get them back on their feet and prevent any further troublemaking from them (and Communism, I guess)--we didn't arbitrarily bomb and invade them for nothing. We're also there for...strategic location. Japan--I'm guessing we stayed to keep an eye on them, but also to stand guard against Communism and later as...a strategic location. That's what BushCo is trying to turn Iraq into--an American-friendly oil producing puppet-state that will allow us to exert more influence in the region. Difference is, we're the aggressors this time. The Japanese and the Germans knew they had to be sorry and atone for their sins and accept us, and we were wonderful to them and helped them rebuild and traded with them. In Iraq, we lashed out and needlessly destroyed a country that didn't even have the ability to attack us, let alone the will. Out of greed. And we're making big profits off of the disaster and bloodshed we've inflicted. And they know it, and they'll continue to know it, and our troops will never be allowed to let down their guard as they do in those other countries, because we not only violated their sovereignty (spelled right?) and their ability to function, but we're an everlasting affront to their national pride, religion and culture. It's unwise to stay, for the Iraqis, and us, and for future terrorism, but that won't stop the neocons from trying.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Our troops have done what they went there to do... let's bring 'em home!
If victory is bringing ALL of our troops home....we won the Vietnam war.





Get a clue.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, I think I have a clue--and I think you and I are on the same side
of the argument. I'm not arguing for staying in Iraq, by any means. I must have misunderstood your comment.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Actually, that's the only test of how well our military tactics worked--
when we go homw.

So, what is our exit strategy for Germany or Japn?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. I'd like to believe "the surge is working"
But the only success that matters can happen only when we leave. Then the truth will be known.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. We all knew before hand this would be the story towards years
end the military was doing a jam up job in Iraq. But, but the surge was to give the iraqi government enough space so they could begin sitting up this government. Yes, our troops are to be commended for, but what will their reward be? Bush wants to create permanent bases and many of these fine men and women will not see home for a long time.

Ben David
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. Violence is down, so we must stay. Violence is up, so we can't leave.
Any other definition of a quagmire, or of the well-planned permanent colonization of an major oil producer?
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
15. murtha make a deal?
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 08:03 AM by Algorem
has that lawsuit goe away yet?

http://cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-00... TODAY LEGAL AFFAIRS
Nov. 19, 2007 4:58 p.m.

Murtha Fights Marines Defamation Lawsuit

By Kathleen Hunter, CQ Staff

Lawyers for Rep. John P. Murtha will appeal a recent ruling advancing a defamation lawsuit brought against the Pennsylvania Democrat by a U.S. Marine under investigation for killing Iraqi civilians.

Justice Department lawyers representing Murtha on Nov. 16 filed notice that they planned to appeal a federal district court judges Sept. 28 ruling allowing the lawsuit to proceed and ordering Murtha to give sworn testimony in the case.

Marine Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich sued Murtha in August 2006, accusing the 17-term congressman of defaming him during a news conference last year on the Nov. 19, 2005 killings of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

Wuterich charges that Murtha publicly and falsely accused him and other Marines involved in the Haditha incident of cold-blooded murder and war crimes and of attempting a cover-up, according to court documents...

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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
16. Of course it's working
An increased imperial presence always works for a while. Then things slide back again, and eventually the empire has to admit that, in the long run, it's losing.

It's an old story in history. Someone (I wish I could remember who; it might have been de Tocqueville) said that Americans think that history doesn't apply to them. We're seeing another example of that.
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