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Branch Davidians had and fired 4 Barrett .50 at the FBI

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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 12:38 PM
Original message
Branch Davidians had and fired 4 Barrett .50 at the FBI
There are probably a few other examples. I saw a simi truck taken out by a swat team with 2 rounds. I am guessing that the second round was not really necessary.

I am not worried about the 99.999 percent of safety conscious gun owners.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Branch Davidians...
Were the only people to criminally use a Barrett that I've ever heard of, and they didn't do a very good job of holding off the FBI. With the money they spent on those rifles, they could have gotten at least a dozen M1As or FALs that would have posed more of a threat to the FBI agents. I'm not convinced that the use of this weapon in one crime merits an infringement of the RKBA, especially when there are many rifles in smaller calibers whose performance is equal to or better than that of the .50 BMG.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. ..and IF they did, they apparently didn't hit anybody with them...
Branch Davidians had and fired 4 Barrett .50 at the FBI

..and IF they did, they apparently didn't hit anybody with them...

The BATFE officers who were killed in the initial botched raid, were not killed by .50's. AFAIK, there has never been a single murder in the U.S. with one in the quarter-century they have been on the civilian market.
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. If they did fire - never heard of this - they most certainly missed. Barret injuries are...distinct.
The wounds wouldn't look anything like normal gunshots, and wouldn't be mistaken for such, just like how handgun and rifle wounds aren't confused by anyone who knows anything about them.

Energy is energy, pretty much.
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RantinRavin Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Not according to the FBI
http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm

FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun

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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999:
GAO report (see page 4):

http://archive.gao.gov/f0502/162586.pdf
-----
list of crimes involving .50 caliber anti-armor sniper rifles:
http://www.vpc.org/snipercrime.htm

http://www.vpc.org/studies/50danger.pdf
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Two of those are press releases from the gun-ban lobby...
Edited on Tue Sep-25-07 12:53 PM by benEzra
and one is a letter citing unnamed ATF sources, with no attribution or direction as to primary source. The actual report presented to Congress says that no .50's were found. Considering that the material RavinRaven cited was from an ATF spokesperson (note the source), I think one can conclude that the ATF concurred with the FBI's inventory and probably helped generate it.

The only things even close to being .50 related at Waco were four magazines for some sort of .50 (possibly .50AE pistols, e.g. Desert Eagle, comparable to .44 magnum), some spare .50 magazine springs (again, possibly .50AE), and some empty .50 links from an M2. The VPC lobbyists are flat wrong on this one.

The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas.

SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians

In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and
more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of
thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified
to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and
silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.

I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's
report on ATF's role in events at Waco.

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)

FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components

61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers

61 AK-47 Type

34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers

13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge

11 7.62MM FN FAL Type

10 Mini-14 Type

7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type

6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1

6 Assorted Rifles

5 M-11/Nine

5 M-14 Type

3 Galil

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

1 Air Rifle

1 Heckler and Koch MP-5

1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers

23 Beretta

13 Glock

8 Assorted Revolvers

6 Safari Arms

6 Assorted Pistols

5 Sig Sauer

5 Walther

2 Taurus

EXPLOSIVES

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.

11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.

219 Grenade Safety Pins

243 Grenade Safety Levers

Rifle Grenades

200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers.

Flash Suppressors

18 Flash Suppressors.

Firearms Barrels

17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)

3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)

1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

2 Ruger. 22 Caliber

1 M-60 machine gun

1 12 Gauge Shotgun

1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel

1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel

Pistol Slides

1 Sig Sauer Model

Revolver Parts

1 .38 Special caliber cylinder

Bolt Carriers

39 M-16

24 AR-15

2 MP-5

2 AK-47

1 FAL

1 Unknown

Bolts

15 AK-47

7 .22 LR conversion

3 M-16/AR-15

1 FN FAL (1)

Bolt Assemblies

3 M-11/Nine

2 M-16

1 AR-15

1 MAC-10

1 Shotgun

Recoil Springs and Guides

3 Glock

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

1 M-11/Nine

Stripper Clips

29 Stripper Clips

Accessories

6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits

Hammers

31 AK-47

18 M-16

12 AR-15

4 M-11/Nine

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

Hammer Springs

3 AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs

36 M-16/AR-15

4 AK-47

Selector Switches

9 M-16

3 AR-15

1 Unknown

Sears

1 M-11/Nine

Auto Sears

8 AK-47

4 M-16

1 FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs

12 AK-47

Disconnects

7 AK-47

1 M-16

Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings

17 M-16

6 AR-15

3 M-60

3 M-11/Nine

2 MP-5

2 Sten

1 AK-47

1 Heckler & Koch

1 M-14

1 Smith & Wesson

1 Beretta

1 Shotgun

Ammunition Magazines

289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type

248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type

108 Sten Gun Type

88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type

72 M-14 Type

61 Beretta Model Type 92

58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type

28 Ruger Mini-14 Type

22 .22 Caliber

17 UZI Type

16 USAS-12 Type

13 .45 Caliber

11 Glock

11 MP-5

11 Sig Sauer P226/P228

9 Unknown Type

7 .308 Caliber Galil Type

6 Walther PPK

5 9mm Unknown Type

4 .50 Caliber

3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine

3 .380 Auto Caliber

2 9mm Smith & Wesson

1 AK-74 Type

1 Grendel

Ammunition Containers

220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)

15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)

4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers)

1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)

Magazine Springs

360 M-16/AR-15

42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type

35 AK-47

28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type

15 Unknown

10 M-14

6 M-1 Carbine

3 .50 Caliber

1 Mini-14 Magazine

1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Congrats---You Won The Battle, But Lost The War

Perhaps there weren't any .50 caliber rifles at the Branch Davidian compound (I guess all those .50 cal. accessories were just used for decorations). But in all my years of arguing over guns, here and elsewhere, I have never seen more convincing proof of the need for stronger firearms regulation in this country than that sickening list of all the guns (legal and illegal), silencers and assorted lethal instruments that a violence-prone bunch of religious cult fanatics was able to assemble. You walked right into this one, Ben; a classic case of feverishly concentrating on a tree and missing a whole forest. And I certainly do appreciate it.

Do you ever get tired of doing these kinds of favors for your opponents?
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-28-07 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Obviously, we need to make silencers/machineguns Double Super Illegal...
since the existing 10-year felony for illegally manufacturing NFA Title 2 hardware without Federal authorization apparently didn't make it illegal enough.

And, using typical ban-the-guns logic, a single incident 14 years ago involving illegal NFA Title 2/Class III automatic weapons and sound suppressors somehow justifies banning the most popular NFA Title 1 civilian target rifles in America in 2007. :eyes:

But keep beating the ban-people's-guns drum if you want to keep the issue front-and-center indefinitely.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-28-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Fair Enough

The only person who's keeping this issue front-and-center is you. Constantly. Day after day. Year after year. Oh, I'll get my licks in periodically, but compared to the barage that you and your gun activist troops have been laying down here at DU, I'm a piker; for every comment I make on one of your gun propaganda threads, I let 3 go by, and I don't post in the Gun Dungeon at all, as you well know. What percentage of your posts here at DU are non-gun related? Less than 5%, I'm willing to wager.

And feel free to keep spreading the falsehoods: that declaring items illegal pretty much does the job, or that current gun laws are a sufficient response to the tide of firearms-related violence in this country. Or that the firearms policy you're trying so hard to put in place here isn't right out of the Republican playbook. Or that the most important element of any shooting incident is the proper ID of the gun involved---because, God knows, the most important detail of 9/11 was the kind of planes that slammed into those towers, right? Or for that matter, that advocating stricter gun regulations---as I do, is the same as gun banning.

Look forward to talking to you on threads dealing with the next 10 school massacres in this country.....

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Not one documented case of a person being shot with a 50 caliber rifle in the USA?
Amazing.
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