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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:09 PM
Original message
Germany invited to D-Day events
The move marks the growing ties between French President Jacques Chirac and the German chancellor.
Allied forces disembarked on the Normandy coast in the first step towards liberating France from German occupation during World War II.

Mr Schroeder has said he will participate in the ceremonies.

The move shows how close a relationship has developed between the two countries since they put aside their wartime enmity.

Just 10 years ago it was deemed too soon to invite a German chancellor to the 50th anniversary, with the late French President, Francois Mitterrand, taking his German counterpart, Helmut Kohl, to a Franco-German youth festival instead.

...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3361763.stm
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. If the French can forgive the Germans
then maybe one day the Palestinians will be able to forgive the Israelis. (And vice-versa)

This story gives me hope for the new year.
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Will they be taking part in the re-enactment of the battles?
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Maybe in another 50 years.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. How about re-enactment scenes of the French women
"servicing" the Nazi soldiers?
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Judging from your profile it sounds as if that you'd be interested
in "servicing" to expand your "hobby."

Did you have a mean French nanny that beat you with a shoe?

What sort of bigotry does a person have to have to condemn a nation based on here-say from RW talk shows?

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Here say?
What here say?

The French shipped their own neighbors to the death camps. That is a fact.

The French women gladly gave themselves to the Nazi killers. That is a fact.

I never post here say.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. You are speaking in absolutes. You are incorrect.
There were far more heroes than cowards.

THAT is a fact.

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. There were far too many cowards
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
67. From where do you acquire this amazing expertice and insight
into the WWII French population?

I'm sure that if there was a Panzeer division in your front yard you would become Rambo and take them all out with cleaning products and a Swiss Army knife.

Petain's actions were to save the greatest number of civilians at he moment. The armistace was struck with Germany because they had no other choice. They would have been dessimated if they hadn't.

One of the first acts of public resistance to German occupation was a small public demonstration of secondary school students at the Arc de Triomphe on 11th November 1940, when they celebrated the Allied victory over Germany in the First World War.

A group of scientists and lawyers working in Paris led by Boris Vilde began publishing a clandestine newspaper calling on the French people to resist the German occupation. The Muse de L'Homme group was infiltrated by a supporter of the Vichy government and as a result virtually all of the men and women involved with producing the newspaper were arrested and executed. It is claimed that one member of the group, Valentin Feldman, shouted at the moment of execution: "Imbeciles, it's for you, too that I die."

In occupied France the Gestapo began hunting down members of the Communist Party and Socialist Party. Most of them went into hiding. The obvious place to go was in the forests of the unoccupied zones. Escaped soldiers from the French Army also fled to these forests. These men and women gradually formed themselves into units based on political beliefs and geographical area. Eventually these people joined together to form the Maquis. As the organization grew in strength it began to organize attacks on German forces. They also helped to get Allied airman, whose aircraft had been shot down in France, to get back to Britain.

Radical members of the Socialist Party, including Pierre Brossolette and Daniel Mayer, formed one of the first resistance groups in France when they established the Comit d'Action Socialiste in January, 1941.

The Communist Party also became involved in the struggle against the German occupation. As they had been working in secret since 1939 they were ideally suited for clandestine activities. In its newspaper, L'Humanit, edited by Pierre Villon, the Communist Party called for a "National front for the independence of France." In May 1942, Villon established the resistance group, Front National.

Some early supporters of Henri-Philippe Petain and the Vichy government had become disillusioned and joined the resistance. Henry Frenay, who had initially worked for the Vichy administration, became active in the resistance in February 1941. He published underground newspapers such as Les Petities Ailes and Vrits, before forming Combat in November, 1941.

During this period, three important resistance leaders, Jean Moulin, Jean-Pierre Lvy and Emmanuel d'Astier, emerged in France. At first Levy and d'Astier concentrated on producing underground newspapers but eventually established the resistance groups, Francs-Tireur and Liberation-sud. However, both these groups only had a few thousand members.

General Charles De Gaulle was keen to unite these different resistance groups under his leadership. Jean Moulin, who had spent time in London with De Gaulle, was sent back to France and was given the task of uniting the various groups into one organization. He arranged meetings with people such as Henry Frenay (Combat), Emmanuel d'Astier (Liberation-sud), Jean-Pierre Lvy (Francs-Tireur), Pierre Villon (Front National), Daniel Mayer and Pierre Brossolette (Comit d'Action Socialiste), Charles Tillon and Pierre Fabien (Frances-Tireurs Partisans).

After much discussion Jean Moulin persuaded the eight major resistance groups to form the Conseil National de la Resistance (CNR) and the first joint meeting under Moulin's chairmanship took place in Paris on 27th May 1943.

On 7th June 1943, Ren Hardy, an important member of the resistance in France, was arrested and tortured by Klaus Barbie and the Gestapo. They eventually obtained enough information to arrest Jean Moulin, Pierre Brossolette and Charles Delestraint. Moulin and Brossolette both died while being tortured and Delestraint was sent to Dachau where he was killed near the end of the war.

In December, 1943, Joseph Darnard, an fanatical anti-Communist, became chief of secret police in Vichy. Called the Milice, its 35,000 members, many of them fascists, played an important role in investigating the French resistance. Like the Gestapo, the miliciens were willing to use torture to gain information.

On 15th March, 1944, the Conseil National de la Resistance published a charter that demanded a series of social and economic reforms should be implemented after the liberation of France. This included the establishment of universal suffrage and the equality of all citizens. The charter claimed that to ensure true equality it would be necessary to nationalize the large industrial and financial companies. It also called for a minimum wage, independent trade unions, comprehensive social security, worker participation in management, educational equality, and the extension of political, social and economic rights to colonial citizens.

During the D-day landings in June, 1944, the Maquis and other resistance rose up to help in the liberation of their country. This included attacks on the occupied garrisons in the towns of Tulle and Gueret. In revenge for the French attack on the German garrison 120 men were hanged in Tulle on 9th June. Later that day another 67 were murdered in Argenton.

These armed resistance groups were able to slow down the attempt by the 2nd SS Panzer Division to get to the Normandy beaches. It was decided to carry out a revenge attack that would frighten the French people into submission. On 10th June a group of soldiers led by Major Otto Dickmann, entered Oradour-sur-Glane, a village in the Haute-Vienne region of France. He ordered the execution of more than 600 men, women and children before setting fire to the village.

Despite these atrocities the French Resistance continued to take up arms against the German Army. After the war General Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote: "Throughout France the Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without their great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."


(from) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FRresistance.htm
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. How's about a re-enactment of Grampa Bush,...
,...making a killing off of dealings with Hitler?

There are no pedestals in this country. Sorry. We put ourselves in as deep of sh*t as anyone else. So,...don't crusadin' when the pockets of sin run every bit as deep by virtue of our very own ex-patriots.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. WARNING: STAY FOCUSED!!!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. WARNING: STAY FOCUSED!!!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
79. DANGER, WILL SMITH!!!
THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED! ALERT! ALERT!
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. LOL!!!! Thanks, I needed that!
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. The way the French collaborated with the Germans
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 03:26 PM by sexycool
I would think they wouldn't want to broach the subject.

"Although most people believe that the French were violently opposed to the German Occupation, in reality, many of the French were surprisingly accommodating to their German 'guests'."

http://www.albertson.edu/languages/Hiroshima/FrenchHistory/German_Occupation/collaboration.htm

"Despite their efforts to control prostitution, the French and German governments had trouble stopping destitute women from selling their bodies to the German soldier. This type of prostitution was fairly common; some estimates run as high as 80,000 to 100,000 poverty-stricken women selling their bodies in Paris alone (Burrin 205)."

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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Hmmm....aren't some of the Iraqis "surprisingly"
cooperative with us now? (Chalabi comes to mind.)

And wasn't Grant surprisingly friendly toward Lee at Appolmattox Courthouse?

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. So you compare the Nazi occupation of France
with the Coalition's occupation of Iraq?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It does have a lot of similarity
Wouldn't you agree?
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The French shipped their Jews to the Nazi death camps
and the French women had many French/Nazi babies.

I would compare the Allied invasion of France with the coalition invasion of Iraq myself.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Wow
Really? The Vichy French that collaborated with the Germans were representative of the French people under German occupation? The French elected the Vichy? Oh, wait, no the Vichy French government was installed by the Germans (much as the current Iraqi government was installed by the US). So how can you make such a sweeping generalization as "The French shipped their Jews to the Nazi death camps" when only a handpicked few were the ones that authorized it?

"the French women had many French/Nazi babies."

And many Vietnamese women had many Vietnamese/American babies, and many Native American women had Native American/white babies, whats the point? Since wars began, many As I said earlier, there is quite a difference between French women prostituting themselves out or even being raped by Germans (with the risk of pregnancy) just to survive, and French women swooning over the Germans and having these babies out of love/lust.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Hmm, let's see, if you mean the unprovoked grab of a weaker
country's assets which was planned years in advance of a national leader's ascension to power....well, yes I do!

What coalition anyway? Let's face it, it's a US action with a hundred troops here and there thrown in for good measure.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Opposed and accomodating are not mutually exclusive
The French women had to do whatever they could to survive. If that meant "servicing" German soldiers, so be it. That is FAR different than French women rushing to the charming German soldiers begging for sex, which seems like what you are implying. Oh, and I guess you've never read much about the French Resistance then? You could hardly call them accommodating.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Most of the French populace turned belly up.
And they shipped some of their neighbors to the Nazi death camps. I don't klnow about you but that just turns my stomach.

Why are you so supportive of France given that kind of record?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. What would you have had them do?
In WWI, France lost over ONE MILLION young men in the trenches. When you look at the percentage of men killed in that war in relation to the population of the country, it would be proportional to the US going to war today and losing something like 15-20 MILLION soldiers! I doubt any country could bear that kind of depopulation of their forces and recover in only 20 yrs to fight again. The French never had a chance to rebuild their forces to anywhere near being a strong enough force to stop the German assault with their new air and armor power. Of course they went belly-up; their country never recovered from the first assault. They put all their faith in the Maginot line as a way to make up for their lack of manpower, but the Germans were able to cut through. Once that line fell, they didnt have enough troop support to put up any kind of defence. Would you have had them fight and be cut down by German troops? Maybe suicide charges with pitchforks and hatchets would have satisfied you? Old women and children trying to beat Nazi troops with brooms and pots? Look at the Japanese example; their troops fought to the death even when outnumbered instead of retreating and regrouping. This cost them dearly as their best troops were killed off. To fall back, regroup and sustain a guerrilla war when you are clearly outnumbered is smart; to fight head-on senselessly when you're clearly outnumbered is stupid.

Again, you are still not getting my point. I am NOT supportive of the Vichy French. They were the puppets put in place by the Germans and were hardly representative of the French people. The acts of the Vichy are NOT representative of the French people.

Now may I ask, why are you so angry at the French people? Note the word "people"; this does not mean the Vichy French select few, but the general population of France.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. You kinda missed the more recent U.S. sex-slave stuff, huh,...
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. While the Neo-cons are still stuck in the past,...
,...these countries are moving towards the future. Too bad the neo-cons can't just GET OVER that the cold war is behind us,...they are desparate to find other excuses to stir up more world warring.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Uhhh, Germany was on our side in the cold war
So was France. This is about pre-cold war events.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Refresh your geography
Until the Cold War ended, there were TWO Germany's. West Germany was with us, East Germany was against us.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The French collaborated with the Germans
BEFORE the cold war. There, I've "refreshed" YOUR history.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sexy cool....... LOL

I've never seen a france bashing freeper that was sexy and cool
I only saw fat, hate mongering rednecks

France didn't buy your lies assholes and never will
go back watching the carnage on faux little man
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Huh?
The thread is about French-german relations dude. Did you know the French shipped Jewish French citizens to the Nazi death camps?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. FREEPY BOY


Did you know that the American gvt is responsible of the genocide of 4 millions in south east asia in the 60's and 70's

as for Franco-German relations, this goes to to show you that 'old europe' as you ultra right wing freaks like to call it is more united than ever against the neo faschists that you worship
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Now I get it.
You're French. I am so sorry to bring up bad French history to you.

Were you born immediately after WW II?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. before you get banned


no I was born decades after but my grandfather died as a resistant fighter but what you're doing is spinning the truth to make the French look bad nothing more.

If germany had invaded the US I wonder how many jewish you would have sent to the death camps
After all the grand father of the man sitting in the WH collaborated with Nazis himself
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Sorry
We know what the French did. And we know the allies freed France.

Are you not the least bit grateful to the United States and Britain?

Did you know that French troops actually fired on allied troops?

You obviously have a personal stake in this and in trying to get me banned. Please work that out somewhere else okay?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. freepy

We're a free country and very grateful although the allied killed more than 60 000 French people bombing their houses and there weres more than a few rapes committed by GI's after the war but we're still grateful and I promise you that if one day

the Irakis invade the US we'll gladly help you
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Again, have you ever expressed thanks
to the Brits and the Yanks?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. LIPS open, BRAINS move,...
,...I confess,...you are good,..."LIPS",...

You studied Goebbels, big time, huh,....

Diversion, switch n' bait, simplicity,....

You fuddle and muddle the past/present/future into one pot.

You are devious,...and very good at it.

What does that make you?

Not my kind of guy/gal.

You are a troll.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:30 PM
Original message
Get a grip dude.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Get a grip dude.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
53. Dear France
Thank you for helping us become the free and great nation we are today. Without your help, we would never have succeeded against the British. Oh, and thanks for that Statue of Liberty too.

Love and kisses,

Sexycool
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
85. French military help in the USA?
Twice in the past 100 years, we in the USA have rescued Franch from occupation from foreign troops. Yes, in the biggest war in history, France suffered several thousand civilian casualties, but you have to understand that it was a TOTAL WAR.

In in earlier post you indicated France's military had not recovered by the time they were invaded in WWII and this is not true. When Germany invaded France in 1940 the French army was at full strength and French tanks and armored vehicles outnumbered German panzers. It was poor military leadership on behalf of the French that led to a quick defeat.

As for Iraq invading the U.S., I know you were just be facetious but if the USA is ever invaded I'm sure we can count on the French to help us construct a massive defensive line with very impressive guns and underground bunkers that the enemy will just go around.

BTW, my grandfather was one of the Americans who suffered a near fatal injury in a gas attack in WWI liberating France. His lungs were permanently damaged, but a French surgeon came to the USA and operated on him and improved his quality of life after the war.
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Cuban Peril Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
106. Yikes!
This could be the most inane post for all of 2004 and we still have 364 days to go.

Please enlighten all of us on the S.E. Asian 'genocide' perpretated by the U.S.. As far as your second point, a team of English language researchers could work for a year on that screed and still come up empty.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. what's the problem moron ?


you've never heard of the VIETNAM WAR ?

4 millions south east asians killed by the US military
doesn't ring a bell ?

6 posts eh ?

I assume you're another revisionist freeper


kick

back to freerepuke now



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Bozola Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
72. You are leaving out all of the occupied countries there

All of the occupied country did that; when the civilized restraints are removed, the freepers will run wild, exacting retribution against the Jews, the liberals, socialists, and intellectuals.

That the "big three" (US, England, and France) were more concerned with petty imperialism and the "growing threat of Bolshevism", is uncontested. The industrialists and governmental leaders rather liked the Nazis. Henry Ford was a close buddy. They considered Hitler to be the great bulkwark against creeping communism.

In otherwords, Hitler was "let happen" whilst the Allies sat around on their fat backsides, casually ignoring his weapons build up (and profiting from it, too). Hell, they encouraged his aid of Franco, the Anschluss, and most despicably, the invasion of Czechoslovakia.

Heaven forbid you mention the S.S. St.Louis, either. You want to start talking about moral rot? No, you want to discuss the reprehensible actions of a subjugated people.

Yes, the French government (which, like most French governments of the twentieth century, wasn't very stable) had a LOT to answer for. They were slack at defending their borders. Sheer states in "The Nightmare Years" that Hitler, in documents, stated that if so much as a single shot had been fired when he crossed the Rhineland, he would have been forced to retreat; an aaction that would have ended his political careen. As it was, nobody was defending the guns.

But, you equate the people of France with the government, and thus the deserved punishment for the laxity of the governments of Britan, France, and the US is to be had by the Jews being shipped off to their deaths, and women prostituting themselves. As usual, the people of the country are f*cked and left holding the bag.

One thing I am curious about, though you rightwingers keep saying "we" the US liberated them. A number of my relatives are those WWII liberators; from a doctor in the Pacific, a cook on an aircraft carrier, to a Lieutenant at Utah beach. They take great pride in their actions. They all, to a person, equate George W. Bush with the Nazi party, and don't bear ill-will to any peoples on the planet, or believe they are "owed" anything.

Who are these "we" are you refering to?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. And I quote:
"Uhhh, Germany was on our side in the cold war"

I was referring to your statement about the Cold War, not pre-Cold War history.

"The French collaborated with the Germans"

Yep, thats why they lost tens of thousands of troops in battle, organized a quite successful Resistance movement that harassed and locked up German troops in France when they were needed elsewhere, and gave the Allies valuabe info on German troop and armor positions which the Allies used to plan D-Day.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Tens of thousands?
The allies lost hundreds of thousands freeing them.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. that's right freepy

92000 thousands french troops died to defend their counrty in WWII

25 years before more than 2 millions. They got a litte tired of war you know.....
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I'm of German descent. Anyone who puts down the French
as cowards or collaborators obviously doesn't know the bravery the French exhibited in WWI at the First Battle of the Marne when they stopped the Germans cold outside Paris and then pushed them back. The French died by the thousands bravely in that battle.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Now where was that battle fought again?
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 04:01 PM by sexycool
What country?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. obviously, like the rest of the AWOL faschist gang
you lack some knowledge of French history

google 'le chemin des dames' or 'Verdun', ''French resistance''

Charles de Gaulle, 2me DB

enjoy your read.

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Le Freep boy
So the Germans have invaded France what, 3 times in the last 150 years? Why weren't they able to repel them any of those times?

Did the French ship their own citizens/neigbors/friends to the Nazi death camps, yes or no (Oui o no?)
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. No
"Did the French ship their own citizens/neigbors/friends to the Nazi death camps, yes or no (Oui o no?)"

The HAND-PICKED (by the Germans) VICHY FRENCH authorized the deportation of the Jews from France. Why is it so hard to get this point across? The entire French population did not all have a vote and say "Lets ship out the Jews to their death." By your logic, if you are this angry about what a few French did, you should be absolutely ENRAGED at the Germans to this day, because they actually did the killing of the Jews. Of course, neither the general German or French people even knew about the extermination/concentration camps, much less what was going on there. The US government didn't even believe the rumors of the Jewish genocide until a few yrs into the war. It was not common knowledge at the time that the Jews were being slaughtered en mass.
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. I'll fill you in on WWI
The Germans got no closer to Paris in that war and eventually gave up albeit with US help. But they did most of the dying. (They didn't run)
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. exactly
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 04:04 PM by Kellanved
I AM German and subscribe all of your words.
French bravery was not limited to WW1. I'm disgusted on how this great news are used to ridicule and smear France and the sacrifice made by the French.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
75. Are you grateful to the U.S?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #75
89. of course I am
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 05:01 PM by Kellanved
I get tears in my eyes when I read about the Berlin blockade.

I don't think that this is the issue here; you're making today's France responsible for the actions of individuals generations ago, actions that happened in all occupied nations. You're totally discarding the actions and sacrifices taken by others at the time.
The French never backed and tolerated the Nazis in any way close to like the Germans did.

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. So you believe the French displayed
A bravery on par with the allies?

I disagree.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. well disagree or not it's true

I strongly suggest you have a look at this site http://www.miquelon.org/index.html
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. LeFreep boy
Everything I havve quoted is accurate, deal with it.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. accurate LOL


poor freepy...

it may be accurate on free republic LOL
and faux is fair and balanced and Dubya is the greatest president this country has ever known
Sure..whatever you say
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Are you grateful or not LeFreeper ?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Are you an American? Are you grateful towards the French?
After all, if it weren't for the French, the British would have stomped our asses in the Revolutionary War. We owe them gratitude for our very existence as a nation. If you want to ask if the French are grateful for our help, it is only fair to ask the same of yourself.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Of course I am grateful
We would have won anyway, but any help was/is appreciated.

The French of the last 60 years are not the French of 227 years ago, that is for sure.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. woulda, coulda, shoulda, is that all you got?
The Americans of the last 40 years are not the Americans of the previous 200, that is for sure.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. So now you want to bash Americans?
Most of my posts in this thread talk about the allies in WW II.

Why do you single out the Americans?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. You sneer at the French and the help they gave us in the Rev. war
THAT's what I'm "bashing", foolio.

Most of your posts are nothing but smeer. The few facts you do post are spun way out of context. The "eyes of history" you pretend to know so much about can see quite clearly that the Vichy regime was a Nazi occupation tool, not one elected by the French people.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
69. You can believe that if you want
But the truth was that, without the French, we would have been badly outnumbered. We may have won eventually, but how long would you have the US wait? 1800? 1825? 1850? At the time of the revolution, the US resistance would have been crushed within a few years by the British, if it weren't for the French blockading shipping of troops and supplies to the colonies from England. You may remember from history classes that the first few years of the Revolution went very poorly for the US troops, and there were several points where the US troops were in full retreat and on the verge of being defeated.

"The French of the last 60 years are not the French of 227 years ago, that is for sure."

But somehow the Vichy French of WWII were the same as the typical French population, and the French of WWII are the same as today?
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
105. Don't be silly. Better look up the French naval blockade whilst
the rebels were losing every battle they were in and only fighting "Indian style" (which today is known as "terrorist style").

The other actions the French and British were engaged in made us look not worthwhile to the Brits, and so they left.

There's more, but without the French, we would not have won. Why do you think Jefferson, Adams and Franklin ALL spent time in France? wine?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. you're the freeper here freepy

I'm grateful althought the allied bombs killed more than 60 000 french people and there were more than a few rapes after the war like I said before. But it's hard nowadays not to be pissed off by the blatant xenophobia of a good part of the American people vis a vis the French people like you dispay here.
.

But we know that unlike you and your freepers budies the majority of the American people is made of good compassionate open minded people.( I hope)




I hope you're happy the way you are.
That's all that matters to me

I also hope you've learned that the French people can't be bullied around .
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. You are the one who started the namecalling
That is against the rules.

Face it, the actions of the French in regards to the Jews and the Germans was absolutely and positively disgusting to anyone without prejudice FOR the French.

The Germans have redeemed themselves in the eyes of history more than either the Japanese or the French.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Redeemed...... ?




who the hell do you think you are ?

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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. REDEEMED:
To pay the penalty of; to make amends for; to serve as an equivalent or offset for; to atone for; to compensate; as, to redeem an error.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. Two words: VICHY FRENCH
Why are you so loath to address this topic, if you are so confident in your historical facts?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. it ruins "sexycool"s whole argument
"sexycool"s premise is that the French liked the Nazis so much that they collaborated willingly with the occupation. From that, he can smear the French left and right, as being a nation of unrepentant racist wimps and whores.

Of course, in order to do this, one has to ignore whole mountains of historical context and fact. The circumstances of the Vichy regime are a large part of that mountain.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Is any of this inaccurate?
"PARIS -- French banks systematically sold stocks belonging to Jewish customers during World War II, according to documents recently obtained by a French daily newspaper. The 100 documents, obtained by the newspaper Liberation, reveal how the pro-Nazi Vichy regime ordered French banks to sell stocks belonging to Jews "without delay, nor market considerations."

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk980130/ireveal.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
"PARIS, Nov 20 (AFP) - Jewish leaders in France expressed outrage Thursday over the installation of a circus on the site of the Drancy detention center outside Paris, through which 67,000 Jews passed en route to Nazi death camps."

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/du/Qfrance-wwii-jews.R1MB_DNK.html

Shame on the French.


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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Is that some kind of crusade
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 04:32 PM by Flagg
this smear campaign against the French for you people ?


go there seriously http://www.miquelon.org/index.html


shame on you and hate mongering buddies
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. A smear campaign
is where untruths are told. I have told the truth and backed it up with sources.

Point out any post that is inaccurate. Go ahead, I'll wait.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. dude

I know French history more than you ever will

I studied it for 4 years with French teachers.

But as usual with the French bashing rhetoric you only focus one one specific aspect of history to make the French look as bad as possible ,to make them pay for not buying Bushco's lies .
Although some of you people are real xenophobe and racists ( I don't know if you are , I don't care, I'm not asking)

but just so you know the behaviour of the American gvt during those years when France lived under occupation was rather ambiguous. I mean the American gvt was the first one to establish normal relation with the Vichy gvt , the grand father of the man sitting in the WH today was a Nazi collaborator, they refused to help e Gaulle (who never really forgave the Americans for that)etc....


You should really go there seriously
http://www.miquelon.org/history.html



this is Democratic Undergroung here
c'mon people
are we gonna let this France- Bashing freeper have the last word
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. The "truth" is,..."sexycool" *LOL*,...
,...that you have an agenda,...and that agenda does not involve "truth" at all.
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Everyone has an agenda
For you to pretend you don't is disingenuous.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. WAS THE VICHY REGIME EVER ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE OF FRANCE?
Answer the question.

Was it elected or installed by the Nazi occupiers?

Was there a popular resistance movement that fought the Nazis even after the Vichys came to power?

Figure it out. Think about what you're saying.
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Puppet Vichy Government
You are correct, the Vichy government was only a puppet of the Nazis, and eventually even that wasn't enough to please them and they occupied the entire country.

There was an organized resistance movement as there was in all occupied countries, but the French resistance was not nearly as intense as it was in the Balkans.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #49
73. You'd get right along with the Nazis, wouldn't you sexycool?
They spoke of the French and the Polish and the Russians and us Americans and the British and the Jewish in much the same terms that you are speaking of the French.

Are you sad that the Nazis lost, sexycool? Are you still fighting WWII from the Nazi side?
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. My father and three uncles fought againat the Nazis
One of my Uncles had French troops fire on him when they liberated Northern Africa.

I guess you'll be shutting up now.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. So you're asserting that those French troops were
Intentionally trying to kill your uncle? Mistaken identity never crossed your mind there? Even today with all our technology we still lose troops to friendly fire. Why would you feel there could be no mistaken identity and friendly-fire mistakes made with 40's-era technology?

My grandfather fought the Germans in WWII side-by-side with French troops after D-Day, and he and his fellow soldiers took shelter in many French villages. Does that trump your hand? So I guess you'll be shutting up now.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. And they'd all be ashamed of your sneering attitude, I'd wager
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 04:53 PM by 0rganism
You'd shoot too, if your regiment had a gun to its head. Of course, you might try to miss. Do you suppose just maybe your uncle is alive today because the Frenchmen shooting at him decided to miss?
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. Vichy French Troops attacked Allies in Africa
Just to clarify, when the Americans landed in North Africa in WWII they arrived in territory that was occupied by the Vichy French government.
Some French units did open fire on the Americans landing on the beach, but they surrendered quickly (after all they are French).
The French units felt they were only doing their duty at first trying to defend their territory.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. you are a RACIST


enough said...
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. I'm sorry, I don't see how the post you're replying to is racist
Can you clarify?

Nationalist, perhaps, but not racist.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. surrendering (after all they are French)
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 05:38 PM by Flagg
that's racism

it is not funny

300 000 French people died in WWII

I understand how the French bashing stuff may have started as some kind of joke

But this has gone on way too long not to be mere racism
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. 595,000 French deaths in WWII
There were far more than 300,000 French dead at the end of WWII.
All my sources say the total was close to 600,000. This includes 350,000 civilian deaths, and 245,000 military deaths.

I have nothing against the French people. War just isn't their thing, and I can't really blame them.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. being a racist is hard to admit eh ?
never heard of Napoleon moron ?
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. Do you hate the Polish as well?




The Troll Slayer
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
110. Locking......too many Personal Attacks here to weed out....
DU Moderator
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
54. WARNING: STAY FOCUSED!!!
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sexycool Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
77. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO SAY-I TOLD THE TRUTH
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. Can't we all just get along?
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #77
86. No you didn't

go back to freerepukes now
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. I see Flagg and Sexycool getting married someday!
It's just a prediction, but this could be the start of something special for them.

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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. not in this lifetime LOL
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. If we keep this up, we'll get to 1000 posts in no time
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
100. sexycool can't be a Freeper
I have yet to hear PIAPS or Klintoon out of sexycool
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. I agree, "sexycool" isn't the typical freeper troll we get here
1. Spelling and grammar are correct past the point of raw legibility

2. Actually attempts to use facts complete with source links to back ideology

3. Sticks around to argue, with a low ad hominem quotient.

4. Doesn't try to blanket-smear liberals, socialists, or minorities

So I'd say it's more of a lone nationalist dork troll than a freeper.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. You told a small part of the truth and used it to attack an entire country
There is no greater evil than that which disguises itself as good.

WAS THE VICHY REGIME EVER ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE OF FRANCE?

Answer the question.

Was it elected or installed by the Nazi occupiers?

Was there a popular resistance movement that fought the Nazis even after the Vichys came to power?

Figure it out. Think about what you're saying.

Or, you could just declare victory and leave.

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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. A s a frenchman

I'm really proud of that Franco-german 'special' relationship we have today. I hope that lasts as long as possible.


It's a relation based on respect and equality unlike the poodle-master relationship between the US and the UK


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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Thanks for the poodles!
I like French poodles, and will never call them freedom poodles as some in the USA now call them.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. you are a RACIST Mcoven
Edited on Thu Jan-01-04 05:05 PM by Flagg

and a sad excuse for an American
and you are going to surrender way before me
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #91
103. It will help in strengthening the EU
I offer a toast to steadily improving relations between France and Germany. You guys have come a long way in the last 50 years.

:toast:

Unfortunately, so has my own country, in the opposite direction. Pray for us.

:scared:
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C_eh_N_eh_D_eh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
98. Let's just hope nobody does something petty.
I remember hearing about a Japanese diplomat's visit to Canada (or maybe it was England) some years back. Evidently some of the soldiers in the military band greeting him were former POWs, because they thought it would be funny to play the song from "Bridge on the River Kwai". Higher-level officials on both sides were not impressed.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. well, can't let the France-bashing crowd having the last word


not here on DU of all places
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