Fatal Ending to Ariz. Exorcism Response

[Hissyspit]

Source: Associated Press

Fatal ending to Ariz. exorcism response
By PAUL DAVENPORT, Associated Press Writer
Sun Jul 29, 6:46 PM ET

PHOENIX - Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday. The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.

The relative who called police said an exorcism had also been attempted Thursday. "The purpose was to release demons from this very young child," said Sgt. Joel Tranter.

- snip-

The officers forced open the door enough for one to enter, leading to a struggle in which an officer used a stun gun on Marquez, Tranter said. After the initial stun had no visible effect, another officer squeezed into the room and stunned him. The girl was freed and passed through the door to the relative, Tranter said.

Marquez was placed in handcuffs after a struggle with officers and initially appeared normal, but then stopped breathing, Tranter said. He could not be revived and was pronounced dead at a hospital. The cause of death was not immediately known, and autopsy results probably will not be available for several weeks, Tranter said.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070729/ap_on_re_us/exorcism_death

[Ian David]

1. See also:

Edgewater, Fla official and husband face abuse charges stemming from Exorcism
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Pope's top exorcist says Harry Potter is 'king of darkness'
Topic started by IChing on Sep-04-06 01:33 AM (60 replies)
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[Az]

2. Which outrage to focus on?

The exorcism or the death by "nonlethal" weapons?

[Ian David]

3. See also:

Environmental activists get a shock in Vt. Brattleboro Cops taser protesters
Topic started by IanDB1 on Jul-28-07 01:20 PM (11 replies)
Last modified by shance on Jul-28-07 03:54 PM
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[Posteritatis]

30. Simple - the exorcism

If someone's throttling a three-year-old For Her Own Good or whatever it was, I want in a position where they can no longer do that sort of thing or out of my gene pool altogether, and I don't feel particularly picky as to which.

The cops could have used a belt sander and I still wouldn't bat an eye; not for this guy, I wouldn't.

[BreweryYardRat]

43. Bingo. 999 times out of 1000, an exorcism's going to be fanatical bullshit.

The cops did exactly the right thing here.

[LostinVA]

32. I believe there's only one outrage here

If you check my posts, you'll see I am NOT a cop booster, but the cops were 100% right in this situation. The man was at the very least torturing his little grandchild, and apparently not for the first time.

[Ian David]

4. See also:

Edgewater, Fla official and husband face abuse charges stemming from Exorcism
Topic started by IanDB1 on Jul-14-07 06:59 AM (7 replies)
Last modified by Toasterlad on Jul-14-07 07:21 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1332752

Wacky Religionists...Leading Mexican exorcist priest: Harry Potter may help devil enter kids' minds
Topic started by Madspirit on Jul-21-07 02:04 PM (17 replies)
Last modified by Evoman on Jul-22-07 02:17 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=136266

Romanian priest sentenced for exorcism death
Topic started by IanDB1 on Feb-19-07 12:37 PM (8 replies)
Last modified by IMModerate on Feb-22-07 01:18 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=112832

Pope's top exorcist says Harry Potter is 'king of darkness'
Topic started by IChing on Sep-04-06 01:33 AM (60 replies)
Last modified by muriel_volestrangler on Sep-06-06 09:09 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=87128

[YankeyMCC]

5. Fatal ending to Ariz. exorcism response

Source: Boston Globe

(snip)
PHOENIX --Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday.

The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.
(snip)

(snip)
"The purpose was to release demons from this very young child," said Sgt. Joel Tranter.
(snip)

(snip)
A bed had been pushed up against the door; the officers pushed it open a few inches and saw Marquez choking his bloodied granddaughter, who was crying in pain and gasping, Tranter said.

A bloody, naked 19-year-old woman who police later determined to be Marquez's daughter and the girl's mother was in the room, chanting "something that was religious in nature," Tranter said.
(snip)

(snip)
The mother was not arrested, but police will consider criminal charges, Tranter said.
(snip)

Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/07/29/fatal_ending_to_ariz_exorcism_response/?rss_id=Boston.com+%2F+News

---

The fatality was the grandfather who was tasered by the police.

[Trillo]

6. Releasing demons = child abuse.

Exorcism released demon exorcist!

[Kagemusha]

7. This is one taser fatality I won't be mourning.

If I was a cop and my alternative was a gun, I'd have shot him on the spot.

[TomInTib]

10. A gun would have been safer for the little girl.

If the guy had his hands on the girl when he was zapped, she is in a world of trouble.

[krispos42]

17. I don't think it would hurt the girl

The current flows through the electrodes, which usually imbed themselves in the skin of the target. I don't think it would flow through the little girl.

I think the officer make the right choice in this case.

[TomInTib]

18. Oh, yes it will.

If they were in physical contact, she would have received quite a jolt. He would have grounded out through her.

Go pick up a cat and put it against an electric fence and see what happens.

[krispos42]

19. My cat beats me enough as it is...

She's also fluffy enough without the added charge! :-)

[TomInTib]

22. One Cool Cat.

If I remember, I will send you a cool cat story tomorrow.

Tom

[cui bono]

24. I was thinking that if he was choking her and his hands clenched from the taser

he could have killed her. She was only 3 and he was already doing it for who knows how long.

[Frank Cannon]

28. How would he have grounded out through her?

Unless he was somehow suspended in midair... like the cat in your analogy.

[Miss Chybil]

13. Same here. Thank goodness they got there before he killed her. nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. We really need more details before

we know if the mother was a willing participant in this-since she was bloody and naked, I wonder. I also wonder what form of religion they claim to have been practicing. Any religion that performs exorcisms, or even removing negative influences from a residence, will not allow lay people to perform the rite. It is done by ordained individuals who have had some kind of training. In the case of the Catholic Church, I believe that there are always at least two people in the room with the "possessed" person. Prayer and holy water are the main items used. Definitely the individual is not choked, though I believe there have been cases where the possessed person had tried to choke the priest.

When all is said and done, I predict you'll find the deceased was a controlling, dictatorial person who cowed his daughter into submission through physical abuse as a child, and was continuing the practice on his granddaughter.

[Chulanowa]

14. This is how the unaffliated fundamentalists do it

They believe that as they have been "born again" they are all viable stand-ins for Jesus himself.

[PurpleChez]

15. Right. I'm hardly a cheerleader for the Catholic Church

but it is my understanding that they take the notion of posession and exorcism very seriously and that it is considered only after they believe all other more mundane possibilities have been ruled out. I don't know if the Roman Ritual prescribes two priests, but I am instantly reminded of some comedian (or perhaps Krusty the Klown), in a reference to the film version of the Exorcist, calling out "I need a young priest and an old priest!" Seriously, though...my leanings are toward Buddhism and I don't generally believe in the whole demonic posession thing, but.... There is perhaps one passage from the New Testament that actually gives me goosebumps. Much of the Gospels is written in what my ex, a biblical scholar, tells me is called a "laconic" style, very matter-of-fact and relatively emotionless, especially considering that you're supposedly talking about the Son of God. "He stood up...he walked around...he sat down again...." But, in the 8th chapter of Luke, Jesus speaks to a demon that has posessed a man and demands to know its name. The demon replies (in some translations), "We are legion." That just gives me the willies. I am convinced that that was written by someone who was a first-hand witness to severe mental illness if not actual demonic posession.

[colorado_ufo]

36. That is really quite a story and makes great reading,

even if you are not of a religous turn of mind. This afflicted man lived like a wild animal, naked among the tombs. It is not mentioned how he got food or water. People were quite afraid of him and even tried to chain him, but he was so strong that no chains could hold him. Jesus and the demons actually have a conversation, through this man, and in the end, Jesus even shows a mercy to the demons. It only takes about five minutes to read, and there are a lot of offhand references to this story in our culture, so it is worth taking the time to check it out: Luke 8:26-33.

[Luke_R]

16. Thanks for that information, Ayeshahaqqiqa

When is it right for the government to step in and say "No, your belief is wrong"? It's very hard to decide. Certainly when someone's life is in danger, it is the government's responsibility to stop it. What if their beliefs were right, though?
In my mind, even if I disagree with a particular religious belief/ritual, I have a hard time saying it's not the individual's civil right. Take Jehovah's witnesses, for example, who don't believe in doctors/medicine. Is this child neglect, or is it their right to let God handle it?

However, when I take into consideration your comment, Ayeshahaqqiqa, it pretty much takes the religion out of it, and makes it a much simpler decision.

[cui bono]

25. How would you feel if the religion was into sacrificing?

Be it animals or children?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. Welcome to DU!

Thanks for this thoughtful post.

[Tansy_Gold]

39. Jehovah's Witnesses do believe in traditional, scientific medical treatment.

They do not, however, believe in blood transfusions, even if said transfusion is necessary to save a life.

Christian Scientists rely on prayer for healing rather than scientific medicine and have been known to refuse medical treatment for their very ill children.

Many years ago, friends of mine who were Christian Science believers lost their 5-year-old son to spinal meningitis. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, after the parents finally gave up on prayer. No charges were filed against the parents, though his illness could have been easily cured with timely medical treatment with common antibiotics.

Just one of the many reasons why I have no use whatsofuckingever for people who deny reality in favor of imaginary friends. Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventurists, don't make no difference to me: they're all delusional as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I respect their right to believe and practice their "religion," but that right ends when it puts someone else's life in jeopardy, especially a child's.


Tansy Gold

[jberryhill]

21. D'ja notice this?

The story says that the mother was 19 and the child was 3. Pregnant at age 15. No mention of a father. And where was grandma?

[bitchkitty]

26. Probably Santeria -

the article doesn't say so but that's what it sounds like.

[knight_of_the_star]

34. I doubt it

Santeria holds a very different perspective on spiritual possession, more in line with Voudon than Christianity, and if it was Santeria there probably would have been a dead chicken involved somehow or other indicators than just two people in the room one strangling a three year old.

That and in my experience if there is any HINT of outside the mainstream religious involvement ie Santeria, Voudon, Heathenry, Wicca etc the media jumps on it like a hungry Doberman on a rare steak.

[knight_of_the_star]

33. That and the Church's bar for exorcisms is VERY high

They don't sanction the Roman Ritual unless the victim is examined by a psychiatrist and it is determined by the shrink that what is going on cannot be quantified as mental illness or some other medical condition. I know Pagan exorcisms, which happen somewhat rarely, involve no contact beyond possibly tying the victim down so they don't hurt themselves or others in the room. There's a reason that something like this isn't performed so casually or flippantly as the fundie groups do, if it is needed its a much more serious matter than just, "DEMON BE GONE!" and those groups often don't know what the hell they are doing.

[happyslug]

45. Some of the things the Catholic Church does is to minimize harm to others.

The Classic situation was the "Tests" for Witches. Since MOST people will sink when thrown into water (And it is easy to fix with some Iron) the "Test" for Witchcraft was if someone was rejected by Water and floated when tossed in water (and this indicate either the person was NEVER a witch OR God forgave them for practicing Witchcraft). Given this tendency for most people to PASS the water test was the reason that Protestant Churches BANNED the water test in the 1600s and preferred a public trial where "Spectral" evidence could be introduced (This occurred in the Salem Witch Trials).

Exoticism falls into the same category. They are people who believe it is needed and rather then let people do it themselves the Church has "Experts" in the field. Many "Exorcists" study the occult and some believe in Witchcraft, but the procedures are very rigid to make sure no one is injured (or try to make sure no one is injured if people follows the rules, which do NOT happen always).

People do respond to these exorcism, mostly people who have convinced themselves they were "possessed" and the devil was "removed" by the exorcism (such people often need an "Exorcism" to help them remove the thought they were "possessed", more psychological than witchcraft in intent).

In the Church as a whole, exorcism (from what I have heard) is looked down on, exorcists exists but more as an option if someone is thinking someone will get hurt in an unofficial exorcism. Thus most exorcisms are done to make sure people like the man in the start of this thread do NOT do one and harm someone in the process. Is suspect the Pope's Exorcist is just a position within the Vatican Pope Benedict appoints. Like most leaders he appoints a lot of people into positions where he never expects to see the person again. Just a comment on the Catholic Church (And most main line Protestant Churches).

[TomInTib]

9. And I thought that MY neighbors were weird. nt

[kestrel91316]

11. It's all Satan's fault. We just need to pray harder and stone the gays......

[Posteritatis]

12. God, this stuff pisses me off

(...Er, pun not intended.)

One of my closest friends - someone who doesn't just pay lip service to the notion of Christianity but actually gets it and lives it, and who pretty much taught me how to care for and about others when I was absolutely not able to understand such things beforehand, one of the few utterly good people I know - was put through something not quite this absurd but definitely in the ballpark of an involuntary exorcism because she was (gasp!) upset at being on the wrong end of some terrible abuse when she was younger.

Heaven forbid someone's problems are real, tangible, of this world and plane - no, of course not! It's easier to claim demons, or to punish people for, well, having been punished! It's not harm if it's committed by a member of the congregation, right? Right?

Hearing about this kind of crap, and hearing of how isolated it isn't, helped me to grok another emotion when I was younger. That one? Anger.

[WindRavenX]

20. religion is awesome!

wow...

[reprobate]

44. I believe that what you meant to say was that RELIGION IS AWFUL.

[Endangered Specie]

23. Talk about releasing a demon... a 10000 volt demon that is

;)

[sampsonblk]

27. What about religious freedom?

[dogfacedboy]

42. That ends where bodily harm begins. n/t

[dogfacedboy]

31. A perfect example of how religion can screw some people up,

and a perfect example of how nature, sooner or later, cleanses the Earth of badness and madness.
This man was a problem. Problem solved.

[knight_of_the_star]

35. Just to point out

It isn't the fault of the religion that such people turn up, its more the people themselves who would use any handy justification for doing such things to other people.

[dogfacedboy]

40. Without religion, there would be no idiotic ideas like "exorcism". n/t

[superconnected]

37. Actually many people are screwed up without religion.

And some people go find religions that follow their screwed up thinking, and reject religions that dont, even if they were brought up in one that doesn't.

[dogfacedboy]

41. And some people turn their minds and lives over to fantasy,

which is the basis of "The Big Three", to say the least.

[sarcasmo]

38. Santa Jesus strikes again.