Iraq 'football' gunfire kills two

[demoleft]

Source: BBC

At least two people have been killed in Baghdad by gunshots fired to celebrate the Iraqi football team's quarter-final victory in the Asian Cup, police say.
At least 15 people were wounded when football fans fired weapons in the air across the Iraqi capital after their team beat Vietnam 2-0 in Bangkok.
Many Iraqis - who face almost daily violent attacks - have taken great delight in revelling in the progress of their national team in the Asian Cup.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6910411.stm

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It would be tragically ironic, if it wasn't just tragic.

[Kagemusha]

1. This stuff's just far too common across the whole region

Sadly it won't register as even a blip in Bagdhad given their other troubles...

[bemildred]

2. Another story pulled straight out of someone's ass. nt

[sanskritwarrior]

5. So you are telling me you have

never heard of celebratory gunfire killing people???

Both of my tours in Iraq we would see this about twice a month, weddings, birthdays, soccer matches, many Iraqis enjoy firing their weapons in celebration, that is a fact of life.........It happens around the world

Crete

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20040413/ai_n12781385

Iraq

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jul222007/scroll2007072214428.asp?section=updatenews

America-NYC

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002794.html

Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6396727.stm


It is fairly common around the world, it is MORE THAN fairly from my experiences in Iraq. How could we tell? The families usually told us what had happened, and the bullet wounds on top of the head or straight down through the shoulder kind of gave it away...........

I cannot believe rational people are unaware of how common this is........

[Lasher]

6. Bullets don't just float back down like showflakes

From your third link above:

"...a bullet fired into the air can climb two miles into the air and remain in flight for more than a minute. As it falls, the bullet reaches a velocity of 300 to 700 feet per second. A velocity of only 200 feet per second is sufficient to penetrate the human skull."

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002794.html

There is some controversy about the lethal capacity of such rounds that are fired perfectly straight up. This is due to terminal velocity, or the maximum speed that will be imposed by wind resistance.

I always considered celebratory firing a silly practice. Not even accounting for the danger, it has to be pretty expensive. Somebody needs to sell these folks some bottle rockets.

[sanskritwarrior]

13. I don't think anyone though they fell like snowflakes

However in Iraq celebratory gunfire becomes a "monkey see, monkey do" kind of thing......... If one house is doing it, before long an entire block is doing it, thn half of Khadimiyah in Baghdad is doing it..........The fact that only 1 or 2 peopl died is the amazing part.......

[bemildred]

7. I'm saying the newspersons don't have any way to know what they claim to know here.

They don't have any idea why the bullets were fired, for example, unless they have access to the shooters and can ask them what they thought they were doing. This is a "happy Iraqi" story. I live in LA and I am quite familiar with people shooting guns in the air.

I don't want my newspaper feeding me plausible bullshit, I want them telling me the facts and providing me with the opinions of real identifiable people.

[demoleft]

9. Facts:

2 men were shot to death
- some people were shooting in the air to celebrate victory
- weapons are quite common in Iraq as it is easily understood
- it happens in many societies - though not in LA after NFL matches - that victories are celebrated this way
- in Naples, Italy, it's very common that on new year's night people with weapons shoot in the air. Infact we register wounded people every year also for gunshots
- I think a journalist has a right to report what he sees, what he's officially told, what his connections witness and the authorities confirm - as it is no military secret I don't think the authorities are led to lie in this case. Anyway one is free not to believe
- this is not a "happy iraqui" story: it's a story of desperate people that often react to unhappiness in violent ways - I don't agree but it happens
- the two men - which I believe died out of this futile gunshot - had probably survived the war. To die this way is what I call sadly "tragically ironic"

Then I ask myself: if someone is killed and nobody knows who's responsible and how it happened, shouldn't a reporter give the news because he can't have "real identifiable people"? Should a paper wait for police investigations before giving the news?

Is it possible to discuss the bare fact that happened?

[bemildred]

10. Those are not facts, those are things "police say".

Which police? How did they know that? Are they known to be honest men? Do we have any reason to think Iraqi police might lie or make things up from time to time? There is no evidence in the story that the "journalist" saw any of it. It is all impersonal, third person hear-say. I repeat, they have no way to know what they say they know here. I would wager that there are a few small crumbs of fact behind it, the couple hundred people in the street maybe, and the rest was pulled out of some "public relations" person's ass and fed to the "journalist".

[demoleft]

14. So let's conclude that 2 men died.

What you talk about is police investigations and attorney conclusions.
Not journalism.
Which is often made of personal sources and official resources.

Unless you think there is a global plot to hide the real causes of the death of two people celebrating a football victory.
In Italy we have injured, wounded and - lately - an agent killed after soccer matches. No one even dreams of not giving the news because there is no evidence against someone in particular.

The facts are there, before one's eyes. You can believe them or not, it's your choice.
The journalist (not "journalist") must give the news according to what he was able to check. It's very simple.
And it's been working for years.

[bemildred]

15. Safe enough. There are gunfire and dead people all the time in Iraq.

It seems safe to say the sports victory was as stated too. But with respect to this particular story there are no facts. Who are the two certain dead Iraqis and how do we know why they were shot? Who are the police in "police say"? Does it seem realistic to you to think that all Iraq is uplifted by something so transitory as a sports victory, things being what they are in Iraq? I'm saying the "journalist" never left the Green Zone and never checked anything, because checking things can get you killed in Iraq.

[demoleft]

16. "Whether we are happy or sad we fire guns in the air"

You ask:
"Does it seem realistic to you to think that all Iraq is uplifted by something so transitory as a sports victory, things being what they are in Iraq?"

Yes. I'm sorry to say it does.

"'Everyone in the country follows football, even with our current problems,' says Ammar, 30, a shop owner in the Hurriya neighbourhood."
"'Whether we are happy or sad we fire guns in the air,' his 37-year-old friend Ali adds with a sly smile. 'We are always going to war.'"
Source: AFP, http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/40356.aspx

If you don't believe the report just look at the pictures.

[bemildred]

17. The last part of that is interesting.

Opting for a more subdued celebration, he and his friends sit out in the cool night air and play dominoes at a sidewalk cafe.

"Everyone has his own way of celebrating. Some people drive their cars, some fire their guns, and some people sit outside and play dominos," he says.

So if none of these guys fired guns in the air, then who did?

"The Iraqi police and the national police," Ammar the shopkeeper says.

"After the games you will see them express their joy by firing their weapons in the air. But the normal people don't do it because they are too scared."

Such "friendly fire" can also be fatal, however. Interior and defence ministry officials told AFP that at least three people were killed and 25 wounded by falling bullets during the celebrations.

It seems to me that if you are an ordinary Iraqi, running down the street firing a gun in the air could get you killed. Now if you were an Iraqi cop ...

[demoleft]

18. So at least you seem to imply some cops did it...

...though you have no evidence, no name, no reliable witness!

Then in this case, if you were the journalist: Would you publish the news? And how?

[bemildred]

19. I'm just saying it's a plausible idea. I thought that was enough for you?

In the piece you posted it's reported as a quote from a particular, named, person; which is the correct way for that sort of evidence.

[demoleft]

20. I'm easy.

I don't agree but thanks for discussing it!

[bemildred]

21. OK. My pleasure. nt

[Danieljay]

3. oh come on, why don't I believe a thing I read any more coming out of Iraq? n/t

[stressfulreality]

4. damn, life's a bitch in Iraq. i here brazil is a bad place too... n/t

[struggle4progress]

8. If I have a choice for a vacation spot, I think I'll go to Brazil, thanks.

The death rate seems rather lower than in Iraq, there doesn't seem to be a major refugee crisis there, and Brazilians know how to protest with flair

[tblue37]

12. If you can fly in there or out. They are having a few problems with their

air travel system in Brazil these days, you know.

[tblue37]

11. This sort of crap is even becoming common in some parts of the US.

Why can't some people--usually men, of course--learn that shooting bullets into the air in celebration is dangerous and often deadly. This is just one of the dumbest, dumbest customs in the world, and it is all to freakin' common.

There is a very good chance that at least one of the weddings shot up in the desert by US forces a few years ago and then covered up was targeted because the celebratory gunshots fired into the air made the American pilots believe they were coming under fire from hostiles on the ground.

You would think that in a war zone, where you know the invaders are all too quick to shoot natives, the occupied population would recognize the risks of celebratory gunfire.

Some men and the freakin' guns. Sheesh!

[Javaman]

22. Becoming? it's been like that for years in L.A. nt

[tblue37]

23. I read a couple of years ago about a neighborhood

where they celebrate some holiday by pushing refrigerators and other appliances and furniture off balconies. Does anyone else remember that story and where that "celebration" took place?

[Enrique]

24. Iraq vs. Vietnam

how appropriate.

[anakie]

25. Iraq 2 d Vietnam 0

and now play South Korea in one semi final. The other semi is between Japan and the BFEE's favourite Saudi Arabia.

So a potential final is Iraq v Saudi Arabia. There just may be a bit of feeling to this match up.


peace