Nader ponders run, calls Clinton 'coward'

[brooklynite]

Source: Politico

Ralph Nader says he is seriously considering running for president in 2008 because he foresees another Tweedledum-Tweedledee election that offers little real choice to voters.

"You know the two parties are still converging -- they don't even debate the military budget anymore," Nader said in a 30-minute interview. "I really think there needs to be more competition from outside the two parties."

Even the possible entry of New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg into the race as an independent might not dissuade Nader.

"He is interesting (but) unpredictable," Nader said of Bloomberg. "I really like the stand he took against smoking, but he goes along with corporate welfare in New York and tax-funded stadiums. So he is unfinished in that way."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0607/4580.html

---

Political candidates balance differing measures of ego (the belief that they have the ingredients to be successul despite the long odds and competition) and external awareness (the understanding of how the rest of the world - and especially the voters - view them). Nader is heavy on the first, and apparently totally unaware of, or insenstitve to the second. He is risking becoming the next Harold Stassen -- a one time rising star in politics who became a political joke for his endless and hopeless presidential bids.

[bemildred]

1. This oughta be good ...

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Tesha]

2. Clinton *IS* a coward.

Clinton *IS* a coward.

On the eve of the vote to authorize Bush to blow
the shit out of Iraq, Clinton, like so many other
Democrats, made a crassly political analysis: She
could do the right thing and withhold authority
from Bush, but that would cause her to face tre-
mendous political fire for her actions. Or she
could take the politically easy course, vote
with Bush, and hope that somehow the war would
turn out okay.

So she voted with Bush.

Unfortunately, the war has not turned out okay,
so now she's stuck trying to explain why she took
the politically expedient course.

The alternative explanation, of course, is that
she was ignorant and stupid, completely unaware
of all of the facts that argued *AGAINST* letting
Bush blow the shit put of Iraq.

Which explanation would you prefer? That she's
a political coward or that she's ignorant and
stupid?

Tesha

[MannyGoldstein]

6. She's Taken Many Politically Courageous Stands!!!

I just can't remember one other than no-insurance-company-CEO-left-behind Hillarycare... no, not even a single other one... zip... nada... bubkes...

Oh, c'mon - someone help me out here - she must have taken at least ONE courageous stand as a senator, no?

[Tom Joad]

64. Yes she has! She supports continued occupation of Iraq through

2012. "Limited" roles. This is not what people want. It is courageous. It is crazy and warmongering, but she is daring to oppose the will of the vast majority of people.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

115. voting for the welfare bill was pretty courageous

those poor banking companies didn't have a voice til hillary stood up for them

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

118. Bombing Iran takes courage.

/s

[dmallind]

16. Anybody

Who thinks there is no difference between the two parties after the last 6+ years - regardless of who is the candidate at the top of the ticket - is so monumentally clueless that it would be impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

All the far-left fellow traveler BS about Hillary being just as bad on the war as Bush, even if by any wild leap of imagination it were true, ignores the fact that there are thousands of other issues too. I don;t care if the "war" is all that matters to you, or why - you STILL have to live with the misgovernance caused by the appointment of neocon judges, cabinet secretaries and government officials (including now US attorneys). You STILL have to live with the anti-science agenda that says globs of cells destined for the trash are more important than living breathing MS sufferers, and that humans have nothing to do with global climate change. You STILL have to live with a virulently anti-gay culture that says beating someone to death for who they love is not a hate crime and that what two guys do in their bedroom will have any impact at all on our "real" marriages. You STILL have to live with deficit spending in hundreds of billions to finance top 1% tax cuts (what was the name of the last president to have a surplus again - DLCer as I recall....)

Here's a bet. Go out you uner-progressives and find every single area on which there is substantive agreement between HRC and ANY Rep candidate. Not by mindreading but with cites. I will find FIVE TIMES as many on which there is disagreement, same rules. If I can't do that I'll go five to one yet again - I'll donate $500 to the candidate of your choice, If I can do it - you send $100 to the candidate of mine, ok?

[Tesha]

22. Positions mean nothing; performance is what matters.

Positions mean nothing; performance is what matters.

And so far, Hillary has *PERFORMED*, on the major votes,
exactly like a typical NY-style moderate Republican
would have performed. Flag burning? She's for a law
blocking it. War against Arabs? She's for it. And on
and on...

By the way, how much time did she spend campaigning
for New Lamont, the DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S candidate for
CT's U.S. Senate seat in the 2006 election cycle?

Tesha

[dmallind]

65. OK wanna make that bet on performance then???

You find all the times HRC voted with Bush and teh Reps. I find all the times she voted against. 5 to 1 odds still.

Or does performance mean nothing too unless you can cherry pick?

Do you REALLY want to look at how much money HRC has raised for Democratic cnadidates and the party in general as a point in your favor that she is just like a Republican? Think about that for a minute.. There are several hundred other candidates besides Lamont. Off hand I can't think of three pople who raised more for them than Hillary. Might not even be any as I am not sure where Soros' money actually goes. None of them is a Republican or close to it at any rate.

That's the trouble with narrow-focus obssession over cause A or cause B. If Hillary voted against 10 things you believed in and for 150, why would you want to GUARANTEE the election of someone who would vote against all 160 just so you can throw away a vote on somebody who covers those precious 10?

[Tesha]

73. I don't really care how Hillary voted on blessing National Dogcatcher Day.

> You find all the times HRC voted with Bush and teh Reps.
> I find all the times she voted against. 5 to 1 odds still.
>
> Or does performance mean nothing too unless you can cherry pick?

I don't really care how Hillary voted on blessing
National Dogcatcher Day; I care how she voted on
the big issues. And on every big issue where her
vote or her voice might have made a difference,
she's defaulted, taking the politically expedient
and easy stance rather than a stance which, while
far more correct, would have been politically
"tough".

And I say this as someone who donated quite a lot
of money to help get her into the Senate in 2000:
I'll probably never support her again, and I am
actively working against her during this primary
season.

Tesha

[Red1]

79. You Don't Know What Your Talkin About

War against Arabs? She's for it.

flag burning? Yaw, a great, really important issue <nyuck nyuck>


"America is ready for a leader who will end the war in Iraq and a president who will respect our Armed Forces by properly planning for the missions we ask our troops to undertake. If the Bush administration won't, as president and commander in chief, Hillary will end this war."

"Hillary opposes President Bush's plan to escalate the war and proposed, along with Senator Robert Byrd, legislation to end authority for the war in Iraq. The legislation will propose October 11, 2007 -- the five year anniversary of the original resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq -- as the expiration date for that resolution."

"America is ready for universal health care. Hillary has the vision and the experience to make it a reality.

This is a battle Hillary has fought before -- and she has the scars to prove it. She knows better than anyone how to fight and build the political support to get the job done.

Nearly 47 million Americans -- including 9 million children -- don't have health insurance. And it's not just the uninsured who are at risk, but those who are underinsured: those who have insurance, but when they need a certain medication, treatment, or surgery, their insurance company refuses to pay for it.

Hillary is also focused on the skyrocketing costs of health care -- over the last six years, health care premiums have almost doubled.

Hillary has the experience to take on the insurance companies, work with members of Congress from both parties, and ensure that all Americans have the health care they need.

As First Lady, Hillary introduced a plan to provide full coverage for all Americans, which was defeated after aggressive opposition.

She continued the fight by helping to create the State Children's Health Insurance Program, the single largest expansion of children's health care in American history. SCHIP provides coverage for more than six million low-income children."

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/healthcare/

[catgirl]

90. Hillary will end this war?

Where are you getting your information? She hasn't exactly been the anti-war candidate.
Perhaps flag burning is more important to her than getting our soldiers out of this lame
excuse for a war. I think that was the point. Hillary doesn't deserve to be the president.
Hillary compared to Al Gore, Wesley Clark and Obama...well there is no comparison. And
she won't win anyway. We need a candidate that can win-bottom line. In the end, we'll
all be fighting the same battle, to beat the republican.

[Tesha]

91. Yeah, it's just your Constitutional Rights -- fuck those!

> flag burning? Yaw, a great, really important issue <nyuck nyuck>

Yeah, it's just your Constitutional Rights -- fuck those!

Actually, I think *THIS ONE ISSUE* sums up very nicely
the cowardly nature of Hillary Clinton; she's more than
willing to vote for something that's blatantly wrong if
it will pander to a crowd that might vote for her.

Tesha

[John Q. Citizen]

67. Are you claiming the two parties debate the defense budget? Or is that just trivial? n/t

[dmallind]

152. I'll bet HRC if elected (or any Dem)

Will spend FAR less on military spending than Bush has. The "military budget" is a bit of a fatuous concept when the 12 digit "war" is off budget.

But yes I do believe any Dem will spend less. Who closed bases? Who started and then restarted a silly unworkable Star Wars pipedream? Vote for Nader in enough numbers and you'll get more of the latter, and doubtless more off budget spending on war too.

Why can't Naderites see that a realistic reduction in harm is far better than an unrealistic increase in benefit?

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

116. don't want ralph to have impact? then stop hillary's nomination!

nader isn't a threat if the dlc doesn't gain control again and give people a reason to vote for him.

after all the hard work of the netroots and grassroots to rebuild this party after 25 years of mismanagement, to put the carville/lani davis/begalla people back in control again would be a disaster

[dmallind]

153. you seem to be under a misapprehension here

That it's either fringe candidate or Hillary. I won't be voting for Hillary in the primaries. My money has gone elsewhere and will continue to in the primary season. I suspect HRC will win, but it won't be due to me.

And yeah those damn DLC evil morons really fucked up the country last time didn't they? Let's campaign against a return to frictional unemployment, budget surpluses, progress to peace, lowest interest rates in 4 decades, and all the horrors the last Clinton put us through.

[bottomofthehill]

23. Clinton may well be a coward but Ralph is....

One of the worlds great DICKHEADS and i put him in that category easily, Ralphie Boy, how can we ever miss you if you wont just go away. Or put another way, Fuck off and die

[Tesha]

25. DU seems to have a lot of hostility to certain truths. (NT)

[liberalnurse]

30. You are so very far behind the 8-ball.......

you can't even see the sun rise at the horizon when it comes to recognizing greatness. Hillary will be the next President of the United States....and just think, your legacy will be that you missed the call by miles.:hi:

[Tesha]

37. And your best argument is to call me names? (NT)

[liberalnurse]

47. Oh Pleazee...........

Work on your reading comprehension skills will ya.:think:

[Tesha]

95. Ah -- further cogent, incisive argumentation! (NT)

[nxylas]

63. Not so much name-calling as deploying the Borg argument

"You will be assimilated, resistance is futile".

[John Q. Citizen]

68. yes, the boring borg argument. And the Hillary supporters still wonder why the

great majority of Americans don't bother to vote at all.

Thay just can't figure it out.

[Red1]

80. You Are ABsolutely Correct - Go Hillary!!!

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tesha]

38. Then you should have no trouble citing an instance of her "guts".

> She Has More Guts...

Then you should have no trouble citing a clear, unambiguous
example of her "guts". So why didn't you do so?

Tesha

[Red1]

66. Reread the Post

I just listed a few. What, you can't figure that out?

[Tesha]

71. I was hoping for something a little more specific...

> She has seen more horrendous events, been exposed to more
> nightmares had to deal with more intrusions into her private
> life than you can imagine, little freeper buddy.

I was hoping for something a little more specific.
Like how she bravely voted to ban flag burning,
even though such a ban is *BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL*.

Instead, you just carried on insulting me.

Tesha

[John Q. Citizen]

69. Aw, that poor Hillary. She's almost as bad off as the 750, 000 dead Iraqi civilians,

the 4 million Iraqi refugees, and Monica Lewinski.

I really feel sorry for her, and I see you do too.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

82. You listed no experiences, you listed the whiny litany of "poor Hillary,"

Personally I won't vote for Ralph and I won't vote for Hillary. If she's so naive as to be fooled by the bush administration vis a vis Iraq, then I feel it's my patriotic duty to not help put an abused clueless waif into the White House. All she had to do was read the UN Report by the inspectors who were in Iraq during the Clinton administration to know that Iraq had little to no WMD capabilities. Iraq was and is about oil. She knows it, and I know it. Hillary is a proponent of American Empire. I am an opponent of American Empire. She voted to go into Iraq so we could steal the oil and build and maintain military bases in Iraq. You may fooled, but I'm not.

I hope, for the good of our party (that would be the Democratic Party) and the good of our nation that she doesn't get the nomination. If she does, we will lose. I live in Montana and I can guarantee this state will not be voting for Hillary in 08. So, if she's the nominee, I'll either write in a candidate, or I'll just skip the presidential contest altogether.

Why do you suppose it is that the Dems and the Repos no longer debate the defense bill? Ralph is right about that, and it's a sign of the sick and unhealthy political system we are burdened with. It's become increasingly reminiscent of the old Soviet system. The fact that the great majority of Americans consciously choose not to vote at all is appalling but very understandable.

[Tesha]

89. Hans Blix, the man "most in the know" disagreed with our gloom-and-doom...

> Once again, the intelligence from those supposedly in
> the "know" reflected a weapons dangerous situation that
> needed to be addressed, promptly.

Hans Blix, the man "most in the know" disagreed with our
gloom-and-doom assessment of the weapons situation in
Iraq. As you'll recall, his efforts to find any evidence
of weeapons at all were cut short when he and his team
had to evacuate ahead of our "Shock and Awe" aerial
campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix

I'm sorry if you believed Colin Powell, but I certainly
never did. And Hillary should have known better than to
believe any of the Bush gang about anything. Again, she's
either dissembling now or she was stunningly naive back
then; either one is a disqualifier for the Presidency now.

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

50. Clinton a coward?

Who are you, The Virgin Mary? There is a bus or train from Everywhere USA to her Washington DC office, why not tell her that so she can defend herself?

[John Q. Citizen]

70. I sent her an E-mail, but she didn't reply. Gutless I guess.

[DainBramaged]

81. Did you curse at her?

[John Q. Citizen]

84. No I didn't. Would that of helped get a reply? n/t

[DainBramaged]

96. No, try again, maybe she didn't like you??

[John Q. Citizen]

133. I figure getting some people to be responsive is probably impossible. Some people

view themselves as some kind of royalty, above the concerns of the common folk.

Think about it. It seems to be a growing problem that's showing up in more and more places.

My analysis is it's connected to the growing imperial attitude accross our government. The same thing happened in Rome during their empire.

[DainBramaged]

134. Praising them in the first few sentences helps

She answered my letter


about 2 years ago:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hi:

[DainBramaged]

51. Dupe

[MaineDem]

3. And so it begins... n/t

[liberalnurse]

32. It's going to be boring here at DU.....

watching all the infighting when trying to seek out heartfelt discussion....but, I'll survive.

I already know Hillary will get the nomination so I'm focusing on local state candidates.

[MaineDem]

52. We have a super Senate race here in Maine

We'll put lots of energy into that. I'll support the Dem Presidential nominee and work hard for her/him when the time comes.

[liberalnurse]

55. That's the ticket!

You are in for a roller coaster of fun! For the Ohio 06 Election, we had Sherrod Brown win the U.S Senate seat from repug Mike DeWine. Ohio went Blue for all but one lead State Seat, the State Auditor. I was extremely active and involved with those campaigns. You will enjoy every second of the ride.

:kick: :woohoo:

[MaineDem]

135. Sherrod Brown and Tom Allen are great friends

I expect Brown will help with Tom's campaign. I'm eager to have him visit Maine on Tom's behalf.

You had a terrific Sec of State race, too. I met Jennifer Bruner during her campaign. In fact, I donated to her sign campaign. She put up signs with colored ribbons to show from which part of the country the donation came from.

[ryanmuegge]

125. Not to start a fight, but what he puts forth a valid argument.

I mean, it's all in how you look at it, but his case isn't crazy. It depends on how far left you are and what you expect from a "liberal" candidate.

There is a sizable portion of the left-leaning electorate that feels the Clintons do not an adequate job of representing liberal causes.

Again, not to start a fight.

For Nader to say anything even remotely good about Bloomberg, though, is ridiculous.

[Red1]

157. ?

[madrchsod]

4. nadar?

is`t he like really old .......

[BigDDem]

5. Poor pitiful Ralph

Not getting enough attention lately?
Go away loser, go away.

[wildhorses]

7. yeah --

and take that loser clinton with you when you go

[BigDDem]

11. NEWSFLASH:

Hillary's ahead! She's not losing. Get use to it.

[wildhorses]

13. NEWSFLASH:

it ain't voting day...deal with it

[BigDDem]

17. Give lots of money and time to Ralph

and let us know how that works out.

[wildhorses]

46. gore/clark 08

:patriot:


if i have to write his name in

[liberalnurse]

56. Yea,,,,,,I suggest not paying the rent and give

for the "Nader" cause! :banghead: :rofl:

[samsingh]

35. As you said: Gore & Clark all the way.

[wildhorses]

48. thank you !!!

:hi:


if i have to write his name:patriot:

[Wickerman]

8. thanks for the insights Ralph

you've been such a big help in the past.

[Skip Intro]

9. nader can't see past his own ego

really, ralph, you've done enough, thanks, sit this one out and get some rest, ok?

[Haole Girl]

166. Agreed. n/t

[maddezmom]

10. don't disagree with his comments on the 2-party system

But I highly doubt he has enough support this time around to hurt anyone.

[fudge stripe cookays]

27. I wouldn't be too sure...

Last time he took Repub donations with no regrets. Think he won't do it again?

[John Q. Citizen]

74. What if he took money from Murdock! Gasp! Everybody takes money from Repos.

Who do you think sits on the boards of the corporations giving Dems contributions?

Other Dems?

Grow up, or at least figure out what's going on.

Ralph is just an unreasonable man. He ain't the devil, no matter how much people try to demonize him. I won't be voting for him, but I'm pro democracy enough to welcome anyone who cares to run throwing their hat in the ring.

Ralph makes some good points, such as the fact that the Dems and Repos don't even bother debating the defense budget any more.

That's true, and it's a sign of the sick political society we inhabit.

[fudge stripe cookays]

105. Erm...

For a guy who pretends to be so above the fray, and so righteous that he's BETTER than the Democrats, it's bullshit.

Because he badmouths both sides, and because he paints himself to be so much more pregressive, it's more hypocritical than when EVERYONE ELSE does it.

YOU grow up. I voted for the sonofabitch in 2000 because my Canadian husband tried to convince me of the viability of the 3rd party a la Canada. I WON'T make the same mistake again.

[pokercat999]

86. I seem to remember dear hillary being at a freeper fund

raiser with Murdock or was he at her fund raiser.......seperating hillary and the rethugligans is getting harder and harder.

[Zhade]

98. Nice hypocrisy from the Clinton loyalists, eh?

NT!

[fudge stripe cookays]

104. Yup.

I can't stand Hillary either.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

110. and the dems hired ken starr's law firm to keep him off the ballot

yeah, they're a real savory bunch.

so some individual republicans donated to ralph. people here stupidly act like he was getting checks straight from the GOP.

he's right on about hillary and if she's the nominee, the dems ignore him at their peril. he'll easily beat his 2000 numbers if a pro-war candidate gets nominated-especially one that follows the advice of scooter libby's friend, james carville, and goes to the right and takes progressives for granted once she clinches the nomination.

[robcon]

12. and he would run for president - why?

To keep a Democrat from winning seems to be his only goal. He can't win... he can't even get 5% of the vote... but he can get a Republican elected.

[Poppy Lee]

14. Nader, Again?

Ralph, we applauded you in the 60's and 70's for bring
consumerism to the American consciousness. In the 80's and
90's we loved the way you supported and encouraged public
interest litigation and your role as an eminence gris. But in
2000, you blew it!

Please take personal responsibility for keeping Bush so close
in so many states that the Republican vote-theft machine and
the Supreme Court could saddle the US, the World, and
innocents in IRAQ with the most uncaring and illegal
administration of the Century.

You did it, Ralph! Don't do it again!

[dogfacedboy]

15. You know, I like Nader, and what he stands for, but

he's not a viable candidate for President(see 2000 election), and all he's going to do, at best, is siphon off votes. Hillary isn't exactly my first choice, and, quite frankly, I'm an Obama guy. I will, however, back the Democratic Party nominee(please, Al, for the good of OUR NATION, throw your hat in the ring!!!).
Please, Ralph, don't run!!!

[Mark D.]

18. Why Nader?

The times he's run as Kucinich has run, he acts like there are no real progressive choices
from the left. I think he's full of shit. He did well in many of those efforts he has made,
getting safety belts standard and so much more. The sad parody of himself that he seems to
be today just insults that work and he won't be remembered for that but the looser who will
not stop running and at best can only help the Republicans. I hear all the time how "Dennis
can't win". Well, I know someone with less of a chance to win (Nader). So get lost...Ralph.

[scavok]

87. Follow the money

I think Kucinich runs as a tax dodge. Perhaps Ralphie is looking for a few tax breaks too.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. Anyone who still thinks there is no difference between Dems and Repubs is a moron.

Plain and simple. There exist no nicer terms to describe such a person.

[Tesha]

24. Oh, there's a difference.

> Anyone who still thinks there is no difference between
> Dems and Repubs is a moron.

Oh, there's a difference: Democrats talk like they're
on our side (before they screw us) whereas Republicans
make it clear from the get-go that they'll screw us.

Tesha

[hippiechick]

29. Agreed.

But I do wish Ralph would hush up and go away. There was a time and place for his indignation (I was a Nader campaign volunteer in '96 and 2000) ... but that time has passed.

The corporatocracy simply isn't going to allow this country to have proportional representation, and the citizenry is just too numb and too dumb to take the country back on their own.

:( Let it crumble like Rome, and lets hope some of us bleeding heart do-gooder's are left to pick up the pieces and start over.

[BigDDem]

39. When you volunteered for Ralph in 2000...

did you think there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between
Gore and Bush?

[hippiechick]

59. Between the DNC/DLC and the GOP party mechanisms, you mean ...

... and the answer is no. They show us over and over again that the 2 major party machinery operations take money from, and line up to protect, the same military/industrial corporate interests - not the interests of the little guy.

I will stand by that sentiment until they bury me.

[BigDDem]

83. No, that's not what I mean, read the question again.

I know you dont like answering it but suprise me....

[Zhade]

99. And well you should, being absolutely correct.

There are none so blind as those stupid fuckers who think a D after the name automatically means the candidate is on the right side of the issues.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

111. pre 9-11 bush and consultant-crippled gore were virtually identical

they agreed 40+ times in a single debate.
that siad, i would back gore now. he's learned a lot since then. hell, he and ralph have even made peace.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. I see you're a Nader supporter.

I think my comments already make it clear where I stand.

[Tesha]

49. Actually, no. Always voted for the Dem. But Clinton...

> I see you're a Nader supporter.

Actually, no. I've always voted for the Democrat,
even if it required a lot of nose-holding.

But Clinton is a sorry excuse for a democrat and
it's quite unpredictable whether or not she'd win
for the Democrats; you might even see the first
50-state Electoral College sweep for the Republicans.

Tesha

[Megahurtz]

92. LOL that's for sure! n/t

[dmallind]

155. For fuck's sake how blind can people be?

Would Gore have nominated Roberts and Alito? Would he have politicized the Justice Department, suspended habeas, started a war of choice which recruited thousands of new anti-US jihadists? Would he have established an energy policy with and for Enron and Exxon, denied millions of minorities the right to vote by caging, or condemned millions of agonized disease sufferers to hopelessness to save dumpster-bound globs of cells no bigger than the dot below this question mark? Would he have given away trillions to the mega-rich (quick - which tax brackets were raised and which lowered when he was VP?) that meant we had to borrow more and more from China? Would he have gutted the EPA and put theocratic puritans on charge of the FDA and CDC? Would he have handed billions to the pharma companies by writing into law that the biggest customer for their products has no power at all to ask for lower prices?

That's just a surface tiny sample. Honestly if people can't tell the differemce between Gore and Bush NOW I wonder how they manage to work a keyboard (and if you can, why trust the fucking idiot who persuaded you there was none 8 yrs ago?).

[Tesha]

156. The immediate question, of course, was discussing Democrats and Republicans...

The immediate question, of course, was discussing Democrats
and Republicans as a whole, not the specific case of Bush
versus Gore. And Democrats have delivered quite a bellyful
of poison over the years including:

o Welfare reform
o NAFTA
o Significant help delivering bankruptcy reform
o Quite a few Bush appointees confirmed
o Significant help delivering the Partial-Birth abortion
o Significant help delivering the War
o Continued expansion of the prison-industrial complex

o No healthcare
o No impeachment or even hard-hitting investigations
o Hardly any energy policy (a Potemkin policy)
o No drug policy reform

Shall I go on?

Tesha

[The Stranger]

41. Given current events -- Iraq war funding, impeachment "off the table," Iran war non-opposition,

perpetuating the GOP-election guaranteeing "War on Terror" canard, I think you have it exactly wrong.

Anyone who still thinks there are differences between Dems and Repubs on the most important issues to the entire fucking nation (and, come to think of it, the world), and which polls overwhelmingly show such importance and overwhelming opposition to the Dem and Repub positions, is a moron.

Plain and simple. There exist no nicer terms to describe such a person.

There is only one relatively small group (in opposition to the popular consensus of the entire fucking world) perpetuating the lying, torturing, war crime going on in Iraq -- wait, check that, there are two. Can you guess which ones?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. Except you have a completely twisted and incorrect view of those issues.

But clearly, you've made up your mind.

[The Stranger]

45. Don't blame me. Blame the American people for these views.

They are overwhelmingly against the Iraq war crime going on.

And, come to think of it, so is most of the world.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

57. You seem to enjoy twisting arguments and logic. (nt)

[The Stranger]

85. I enjoy to Twist and Shout.

[Zhade]

102. Maybe he just likes being on the right side of history.

NT!

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

112. dems could have stopped the iraq war

but followed the advice of the al from-types and thought it would be political safer to back bush.
so they proved raplh right in '02. and don't give that crap that they didn't vote for war. they knew damn well what that reszolution was for. if that wasn't the case, why didn't they raise hell when bush invaded iraq?

[OregonBlue]

20. We have Ralph Nader to thank for Bush, here is the email address for their "political" contact

and my response to them.

[email protected]

According to press reports this morning, Ralph Nader is considering another run for President. While I agree that Hillary Clinton is not a Progressive, a Clinton presidency would be much less dangerous for the world than Fred Thompson or Mitt Romney. Will you support another Republican who will ignore global warming,attack Iran, continue the privatization of the government, continue Abu Ghraib? Because that's what your support of Nader will get us. If you truly love this planet, get off your asses and support Edwards or Gore or a Democrat that would make a difference. You can't win, you can only help to put another planet-hating Republican in power.

[hippiechick]

26. Actually, we have the SCOTUS to thank for Bush.

:eyes:

[OregonBlue]

33. Without the Nader vote, there would not have been a case to begin with!!

[hippiechick]

34. Not true. Buchanan drew more votes in FLA than Nader did.

n/t

[OregonBlue]

53. Your point being? Nader drew 97,000 votes in Florida. Per WIKI

Nader received some 97,000 votes in Florida. According to the Washington Post, exit polls there showed that "47 percent of Nader voters would have gone for Gore if it had been a two-man race, and only 21 percent for Bush," which would have given Gore a margin of some 24,000 votes over Bush. Democrats claim that had Nader not run, Gore would have won both New Hampshire and Florida and won the election with 296 electoral votes. (He only needed one of the two to win.)

[hippiechick]

60. ... and yet recounts done since, show Gore WON Florida.

.. but the SCOTUS stopped the recounting and appointed Blivet.

So what's YOUR point?

[OregonBlue]

100. Had it not been for Nader, Gore's vote total would have been so high there never

would have been a recount. I know Greens don't want to believe that they are responsible for this mess but THEY ARE!!

[ProudDad]

160. Nope, it was Monica's fault!

MONICA G. MOOREHEAD Workers World Party Presidential Nominee Got about 3,000 votes in Florida...

That was bush's margin of victory...and NONE of those votes would have gone to Gore.

You Nader Haters are a hoot :rofl:

[OregonBlue]

163. I assume you voted for Nader. So many people who did don't want to

admit it because they see where it got us.

[0007]

165. More choices equal a better government

Not too much difference between the two parties as it.......'tis just one crooked crap game, much like the Gambinos running it for a time and then the Cosa Nostra family having a wrack!

With the main rule that no one else can run the crap game.

[nxylas]

94. What makes you think he'll run as a Green?

Didn't he run as an independent in '04?

[Highway61]

21. Your kidding right?

Would someone take him to the woodshed and give him a good talking to?
Good man, no doubt. We're in crisis mode here...no room for ego... ummm, I mean error.

[liberalnurse]

28. Nader needs Viagra.

He is impotent and not "up" to the rhetoric he trys to spins. He talks the talk but can't ....you know what I mean.

Thats my assessment. O8)

[DainBramaged]

107. Does Ralphie understand sex?

[DainBramaged]

36. Nader runs, we lose

As I say in my sig "how did Nader work out for you last time?"


This sonuvabitch no home walking the dog mouther fecker is going to toot his shit and the media will lap it up and 3,000,000 people will vote for him and we'll see another 8 years of Rethug rule.


Fuck him


PS

I don't give a shit about those of you who jump to defend him. It's like defending a Depends adult diaper, the end result is shit.

[natrat]

42. jeez not him again-he is such a complete piece of shit

[onehandle]

44. "another" Tweedledum-Tweedledee election!!???

Ralph, are you talking about Bush vs. Gore?

I hope not, because we all know how that turned out.

Surely you aren't saying that a President Kerry would have been the same as as President Bush.


Fuck you, Ralph.

[Exiled in America]

54. I disagree that there are "zero" differences between parties. But I do agree on this point:

I agree with independent critics that there is not enough difference between the political powers in Washington. There are differences, but they are simply not enough. The list of issues that are not even debated anymore by either partly grows longer each year.

The parties can debate whether troops should come home from Iraq, but no one is debating whether or not people in the bush administration should not just be impeached, but be held criminally accountable for their actions. As Nader points out, no one seriously debates the amount of our budget devoted to military spending.

No one talks seriously about REAL honest to god corporate reform. Democrats may favor more "regulation" perhaps than republicans, but no one is talking about revoking corporate charters and liquidating the assets of corporations that are judges to be persistent law-breakers or not functioning in the public interest. No one debates a living wage. No one talks about serious tax reform. The two sides may debate tax cuts for the middle class or rich, but no one talks about ending a system in which 61% of us based corporations pay zero in taxes.

Of course no one talks about land or wealth redistribution - just an example of kinds of subjects that are "forbidden" in US politics.

The spectrum of debate in this country is incredibly narrow. Compared to the rest of the world, our "left" represents the middle-right and our "right" represents the far right.

I wish we had either a multi-party or a no-party system. But the two party system isn't the best way to go.

[Doctor_J]

58. Are the GOP staff working for Ralph again?

Who listens to this guy amy more?

[Hobarticus]

61. Just give Ralph a reality TV show...

He'll get the attention he craves and go away.

[Tom Joad]

62. Clinton is not just a coward, but by claiming the problems of the Iraq war are the fault of the

Iraqi people, she is also a racist. Despicable for her to blame the poor outcome of an illegal war of aggression on the Iraqis at all... The blame is entirely on Bush and his supporters in Congress.

Hillary has yet to accept responsibility, or to ask forgiveness for her part of this nightmare. It is not surprising that a great many progressives see the prospect of her entering the white house as Bush's replacement as nothing more than a continuation of a morally bankrupt policy.

Her slogan should be "Four more years!"

on edit: Just to be clear... i am not really supporting Nader at this point, but i can say now that i do not favor a run for the Presidency by Hillary Clinton. she so much does not deserve it, any more than her ideological companions Sam Brownback, Giulini, Biden or the rest. They all supported Bush at a critical times... it is imperative for us to oppose them.

[harun]

101. She is trying to woo Republicans with that strategy, someone

should remind her she is still in the primaries.

[Tom Joad]

103. I think she is speaking from her "heart".

and the heart of these pro-war dems like biden and clinton leave much to be desired.

[olddad56]

72. Nader has been a 'has been' for 40 years.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

113. because the dems sold out and ignored citzen action

and marginilized him, thinking NAFTA and GATT and all that shit were the way to keep office.

you have the dlc to thank for the fact that they lost what should have been a landslide over bush, and it's the carvilles who gave us the gingrich congress by turning labor off with corporatist policies. way to depress turnout, james!

[Tom Joad]

119. citizens don't contribute enough. It's all about the mother's milk of politics

and the rich provide the milk, and the Democrats (usually, with a few exceptions) Suck ('xcuse the pun)

[olddad56]

144. no, because he didn't get anything done when he had the opportunity.

[mac56]

76. Ralphie is irrelevant, befuddled, hypocritical, and megalomaniacal.

Jesus Christ, what a loser he is.

[Tom Joad]

120. yeah, he didn't support the iraq war when he was supposed to!

what a loser!

[mac56]

128. oh puh-leez

You really can distill everything about Ralphie down to that one comment?!

As if Citizen Ralph was in any position to dictate policy on Iraq?!

Remember this every day and try to live with it: If it weren't for Nader, Gore would be President right now. No amount of licking Ralph's boots will change that fact.

[Tom Joad]

129. god, the only reason gore ain't president is because he couldn't get enough people to vote for him

Not even in his home state.
Maybe if he had not agreed with Bush so often (saying he supported every previous US intervention) in the foreign policy "debate" (lovefest) Gore may have inspired more people. Nader got 3%. No one got 50%... thats the kind of action (or lack of action) gore inspired, a majority of people were turned off by the bushgore show.

go put it in your lockbox.

[Tom Joad]

130. btw, what's this about licking boots? right now the issue is hillary's licking of bushboots

when the vote on Iraq came up. That was an historic vote, most of us knew a)it would almost certainly lead to war b)it was a war that was not only unnecessary but morally wrong. It was a war of aggression.

She chose to side with George W. Bush.

[bluestateguy]

77. A lot of states of Democratic Secretaries of State now

And I would expect them to vigorously scrutinize every single sigunature submitted by Ralph Nader's campaign to be on their state's ballot. Every dotted i and every crossed t; seven the slightest error will result in the signatures being discounted. Then force Nader to spend all of his campaign finds in court to sue his way on to the ballot, thus tying knots in his campaign.

[Tom Joad]

121. No ballot access except for Democrats!

How else are we going to reclaim our democracy?

[mdmc]

78. who will fight to stop adults from playing violent video games?

:shrug:

[SharonRB]

88. I wonder if a Gore entry could dissuade him

[LisaL]

93. Yea, like in 2000.

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

97. Ralph "no home ridin a bike no car homeless lookin" Nader

Presidential caliber? World leader?



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[BigDDem]

106. Dear World,

There's not a dimes worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush.
They have the same global warming and war policy.
That's our reality so leave us alone.

Love,

Ralph and his groupies

[martymar64]

108. I'd he rather not run, but he's absolutely right about Hillary

She's great at speaking out of both sides of her mouth. I have zero trust that she would do the right thing. She only does what benefits corporations, the American people be damned.

[youngdem]

109. Fuck you Ralph. Don't you have enough blood on your hands already?

:grr:

Do you still believe there is no difference between Al Gore and George W.? You fucking idiot!

There would be no Iraq War if not for you. There would be no Patriot Act if not for you. There would be no Guantanamo, no Abu Ghraib, no UN bombing, no stem cell vetoes, and on and on and on.

Haven't you done enough already? Haven't you been directly responsible for hundreds of deaths and ruining thousands of lives because Al Gore wasn't quite green enough for you, and so you elected the fucking Antichrist?

You corporate tool and world class fool, go the fuck away! You have destroyed any legacy you had. PLEASE take a long walk off of a short pier.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

114. there would be no iraq war if the dems had voted against it

but they didn't, no matter what they say.

i suppose you want to blame ralph for making the dems confirm alito and roberts, passing the welfare bill and all the other other bush-enabling

[youngdem]

126. Oh really, since we were in the minority?

:crazy:

[Skittles]

117. can someone please put that egotistical bastard out to pasture?

:puke:

[JerseygirlCT]

122. Can't stand the guy. Hope he's soundly ignored by all

Just go away, Ralph.

[arewenotdemo]

123. FUCK YOU, NADER.

[gmpierce]

124. ralph was right

It's amazing the number of people who still hate Nader for being right.

When they froze him out of the debates and would not even let him attend as a member of the audience - with a ticket - the Democrats earned everything they got. And the rest of us deserved it for supporting those assholes in the first place.

He said at the time that we have one malignant political party with two heads. Nothing that has happened since the last election contradicts that. For example: Have we got our constitution back? Has any Democrat stood up on his hind legs and named this half-assed dictatorship for what it is?

Ralph needs to start campaigning while there is still time to set up some primary challenges that will get rid of the worst of the DLC DINOS.

[DainBramaged]

127. NO, WE HATE HIM FOR PUTTING BUSH IN OFFICE

You Nader whatevers have NO ONE to blame but Ralph for the Bush mis-Administration. Not SOTUS, because if the morons in Florida had voted for Gore, we'd be celebrating our 16th consecutive year of peace and prosperity, not war and poverty. All we needed was 5000 votes to seal the deal and it would have been done. And 3,000,000 more Nationwide, piece of cake.

Ralph fucking owes me about $500,000 in lost income thanks to that shit head he put in office.

[Tom Joad]

131. I think the voters who went for Bush had more to do with it.

[DainBramaged]

132. Sorry, no rationalization

EVERY count proved it, time to stop defending Ralph and face the truth, something Mr. Limelight doesn't want to do.

[ProudDad]

161. You're WRONG

Gore WON Florida...

http://elandslide.org/display.cfm?id=181

[Nihil]

139. "owes me about $500,000 in lost income" ? Wow ...

So much for pretending to be a humble American car-worker in the SUV wars!

:wow:

> All we needed was 5000 votes to seal the deal and it would have been done.

Remind me, what percentage of i) the electorate and ii) the turn-out this was?


Strikes me that it would be more productive to get the apathetic folks
going for a clear "D" rather than sitting on their fat arses watching TV.
At least the Nader people *bothered* to vote ... and *didn't* vote for
a Republican ... maybe there was a little more to the problem than your
simple-minded blame cycles (though I will admit that it fits into your
approach on other threads).

:think:

[Maribelle]

140. That coffin required many nails and many planks

You naderites are merely a few old rusty ones and perhaps a rotted plank or two

[Nihil]

151. And in English?

On second thoughts, don't bother ... you've already convinced me
of your ignorance ...
:P

[Tom Joad]

141. Gore lost because he could not get enough people to vote for him

wimpy-ass war lover/pro Nafta anti-fair trade/anti-labor/anti-poor/Gore (gore said he supported every US intervention previous to the year 2000)just didn't get enough votes to overcome the vote stealing in Florida. Then wimpyGore could not fight for a full recount, but rather pursued a partial recount... which is what a wimpy guy could be expected to do.

[Maribelle]

143. Gore didn't lose..

it was stolen.

The United States of America lost. You lost. I lost. Our children lost. Hard working Americans lost. Senior Citizens lost. Veterans lost. The education system lost. Our environment lost. The Middle East lost. Europe lost. Russia lost. The world lost.



And the screaming window bangers of Miami made sure of it.

[Tom Joad]

147. The middle east was losing under clinton/gore as well

they continued deadly sanctions.
We need real change, not merely different management of morally bankrupt policies.

[Maribelle]

138. If he was right ...

then why is it he attempts to attract fools using the exact climate crisis Gore warned about?

If he really cared about the environment he would have supported Gore rather than seeing to it Bush won.

Sadly for this nation, for the middle east, and even for the entire world, Nader put his inflated ego far ahead of obvious inabilities.

Now we have a climate crisis endangering our children's very existence, which would have been under control had Gore taken the oath of office in January 2001 instead of the most corrupt administration in this nation's history.

Where are the "courageous" Hillary bashers taking responsibility for their stupid actions - - and what are their plans to correct the injustices they've leveled against our children?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

167. What is it with you and "Hillary Bashers"

You are replying to a post that has nothing to do with Hillary and yet once again, you go after any Hillary Clinton critic as a 'basher.'

Please do tell what 'their stupid actions' are? Having an opinion you disapprove of.

Oh....nevermind.

[Tom Joad]

142. It is absolutely proven that if Gore had NO oppenents in the 2000 election then he would have been

swept into office. The mere fact that there are elections with more than one choice dooms some democrats. don't worry though, there may be a time when contested elections end in the US, and then the gore/clinton/bush types can stop worrying. The Dems and Repubs may complete their merger, and shut down alternative (and confusing) voices.

[Maribelle]

146. Democrats don't seem doomed to me.

Even though right wing hate mongers have continually attempted to marginalize democrats, it does not seem to be working. On this beautiful day, tt appears democrats are on the threshold of taking back America, completely trouncing the republican hate machine.

Desperation is driving wingnuts crazy, as they manifest nervousness and agitation over the spanking they will receive in 2008 - - especially those flat freeper projections firmly gripped by Bush's fingers attempting to screw them tighter to the right.

[ckramer]

136. Nader the old fart shut up already

Hillary is not a coward but a fox.

[Maribelle]

137. Why is it widdle men and subservient women call Hillary gutless?

She has more courage than the lot of them rolled into a fat wad of inadequately chewed bubble gum, all sticky and even laughable.

[Tom Joad]

148. I would never call her gutless. she has guts to support war. guts to support

Bush when it really mattered. She is as brave and strong as Condi Rice!

[Tesha]

154. Heck, someday she may even demonstrate some!

(Instead of caving in to political expediency on every
important vote.)

Tesha

[fightthegoodfightnow]

168. Sounds to Me that You Are Showing Your Sexism

Seems you are carrying alot of baggage about Hillary.

Me think you doth protest too much.

How about just sticking to the issues........and accept the fact that she is not good on many.

She voted to keep funding this war as recently as two months ago which in the end enabled Bush to send *more* troops to Iraq.

She hasn't lead our nation. She's followed Bush.

[BigDDem]

145. Ralph Nader in 2012:

President Huckabee and Barack Obama are Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
There's not a dimes worth of difference between them.
Therefore....

[Tom Joad]

150. President Clinton in 2012:

President Hillary Clinton said today: "I firmly believe we need to maintain our military presence in Iraq, it is the right thing to do! I hope the next President will continue this policy.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E6DB1E31F936A25750C0A9619C8B63

[BigDDem]

158. FOUR MORE YEARS!

FOUR MORE YEARS!!

[rayofreason]

149. He did so well in 2000.

[ProudDad]

159. She IS a coward

:shrug:

[CreekDog]

162. Given Nader's track record with the truth, he's not a reliable source anymore

Back in 1980 he thought it would be good for liberal causes if Reagan won

In 2000, he pretty much thought the same thing

Nader has for a long time sort of operated on the theory that things have to get a whole lot worse before they can get better.

I'm just wondering why he thinks he is supposed to help them get worse in order for the better times to come around?

1984 was a warning not an instruction manual. (i love that quip)

[laylah]

164. I wonder how much money

the Republics will funnel into his campaign THIS time?

[classysassy]

169. $$$$Ralph$$$$$

how much are the repugs paying you?.