I'd deny Communion to Rudy, says priest

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Daily News

The priest of the Manhattan church where Rudy Giuliani had his second wedding says he would deny the presidential contender Holy Communion because of his public support for abortion.

"Because he publicly is against church teaching, the answer would be no" if Giuliani requested the sacrament, said Msgr. Thomas Modugno.

Modugno is the pastor of St. Monica's, the East Side church where Giuliani wed his second wife, Donna Hanover. The priest did not preside over the wedding.

Giuliani, a lifelong Catholic who once considered the priesthood, has strained to define and defend his abortion stance. Pope Benedict further inflamed this issue with his comment this week that it is proper to refuse Communion to Catholic politicians who accept abortion.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/05/11/2007-05-11_id_deny_communion_to_rudy_says_priest-5.html

---

And I'd deny your church tax exemption!

[YOY]

1. Heh, the same surname as my mother's maiden name

Probably a relative. An asshole of a distant relative.

[CountAllVotes]

2. the priest is right!

:thumbsup: Father!

:kick:

[JVS]

31. Another vote for priest is right.

Religions have no obligation to allow those who are not obeying the rules of the religion to participate.

[CountAllVotes]

33. hey thanks!

I'm no great devotee, believe me but I do know how the Church is about certain things.

I know my priest where I live would have told him to blow off too I bet (I recall him saying to me once during a bad time in my life, "Well we believe in forgiveness but in this particular case, this is really stretching it!")

If anything, the Church needs MORE priests like this man! Perhaps some healing could begin might I dare suggest?

:rofl:

:kick:

[ChazII]

58. another vote for the priest. n/t

[orleans]

66. then i would imagine the majority of "christians" would get bounced out

on their asses for violation of the ten commandments

[ShortnFiery]

61. No he's not, The Vatican states that "the choice" to receive Communion rests with "the individual"

not The Priest. The Priest and Eucharistic Ministers who stand at the front to give Communion serve ONLY as a conduit between God and "The Individual."

When this issue arose with Kerry, there was a clear reading from The Vatican of this fact.

The only time the Priests and Bishops served as UNILATERAL "deciders" was during The Inquisition.

Now unless we wish to go back to THAT era, I suggest that these arrogant Priest's "get a grip" and realize they are NOT all-powerful.

My liberal Parish would deny NOBODY of Communion. If a person choses to receive Communion when he is not prepared or "worthy", in my belief system, that SIN is between him and Saint Peter when he appears before the Pearly Gates. It certainly is not The Authority of Priests, it's a "GIFT" that an individual chooses to receive.

Shame on those Priests who think they have such power. IMO they'll have some 'splaining to do (and perhaps some Purgatory time) before each pass through the Heavenly Gates. :(

[ohio2007]

77. The Inquisition.The Inquisition.

Monty Python anybody?

[CreekDog]

3. For this?

What about the affairs, divorces, not speaking to his own children, etc., etc.?

[rurallib]

7. That was my first reaction

Never used to be do overs in the marriage game unless the spouse died. These days a person can buy an annulment if they are rich enough. Of course doing this smacks of selling indulgences in the middle ages that led to the reformation.
So Rudi should have joined that large contingent of ex catholics long ago.

[MGD]

51. Let's not forget about marrying his cousin.

[HockeyMom]

4. My Aunt was a Divorced

and Remarried Catholic. Even going back to the 1950s from when I can remember, she was not permitted to take Communion because of that.

Rudy's pro choice stance is moot. He is denied Commmunion because of his divorce and remarriage FIRST.

[CountAllVotes]

8. yep

The priest knows all of this. He doesn't believe that Rudy deserves communion as he has committed many sins that the Church does not approve of. I think it is probably, more than anything, the story about him serving his wife that had cancer w/divorce papers while she was in the hospital! :grr:

I betcha anything that is the reason the priest said this. As I said before :thumbsup: to you Father.

One priest does not speak for the entire Catholic Church by any means. This was the decision of one man that happened to be a priest.

[TexasProgresive]

13. I think you got Newt's story mixed up with Rotten Rudy's

Rudy's 1st wife found out he was seeking a divorce by a press conference that Rudy called. They're both some kind of piece of work.

[HockeyMom]

16. That was Rudy's SECOND wife,

Donna Hanover, who found out at the press conference. Rudy's FIRST wife, his second cousin(cannot remember her name),was in the hospital being treated for cancer when he served her with the divorce papers.

I know. You need a scorecard to keep track of what he did to which wife. Great guy, Mr. Guiliani.

[kskiska]

22. Rudy's wives

Regina Peruggi, Wife #1, is Kingsborough College president and also president of the Central Park Conservancy.

[LiberalFighter]

35. Newt was the one that served his first wife with divorce papers

while she laid in a hospital dying from cancer.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. I thought that was Newt's wife...

or did both Newt and Rudy do the same thing? It really is hard to keep track with Republicans.

[CountAllVotes]

30. lol!

Perhaps you are correct. Just goes to show, birds of a feather flock together eh? All of these slimeballs are the same it just shows, cannot even distinguish one from the other. :evilgrin:

:kick:

[LiberalFighter]

34. What is the point of being a Catholic if barred from Communion due to divorce?

[pnwmom]

5. Since he's on his third marriage, he can't take Communion anyway.

His first one was annulled, but his second wasn't.

[kskiska]

23. Then there's Judi.

Have her two previous marriages been annulled?

[William769]

6. Anybody to deny anyone Communion for any reason, should find another profession.

[JVS]

29. Bullshit! Clergy are not vending machines for sacraments. If you want it your way go to Burger King

[flaminbats]

32. I don't equate communion with profits..

Presbyterians and members of the Christian Church..ie (Disciples of Christ) don't exclude anyone from participating in Communion. If I want food I'll go to Burger King, but if I want a church that offers communion to every member..the Presbyterian Church isn't too sacred for me!

[Critters2]

46. I've got a church full of glbt ex-Presbyterians

who had a different experience.

Just sayin'.

[flaminbats]

49. at least they haven't lost faith..

any Presbyterian church that denies communion to a participating member is one I'll never attend. Thankfully the minister in the Presbyterian Church I once attended didn't question the sexual orientation of the members, but he always offered counseling and support to all who requested it.

the Church you attend sounds interesting, and I would like to learn more about it. :thumbsup:

[Critters2]

50. The Presby pastor didn't exactly deny them communion,

though he did tell 4 of them that they could not be elders, even though they were nominated. They were just made to feel unwelcome, and in time he told them "they'd be more comfortable at the UCC". Turns out, he was right. His loss, our gain!!

My church is a congregation of the United Church of Christ, though, honestly, ALL of those in leadership this year are former Presbys. Makes me wonder who's serving on boards at the Presby church!

[Ilsa]

65. PCUSA members? That surprises me. PCUSA has been

very open minded about sexuality, except for the ministry, which raises alot of debate within. There are some PCUSA churches that might be led by people who are more conservative, but they usually wash out into the evangelical presbyterian denominations.

[Critters2]

72. Yep, PCUSA. Calls itself a "Confessing Church"

They just keep sending folks to us, and we keep accepting them.

[William769]

36. Heres an educational lesson for you, please use it wisely.

Main Entry: com·mu·nion
Pronunciation: k&-'myü-ny&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin communion-, communio mutual participation, from communis
1 : an act or instance of sharing
2 a capitalized : a Christian sacrament in which consecrated bread and wine are consumed as memorials of Christ's death or as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and communicant or as the body and blood of Christ b : the act of receiving Communion c capitalized : the part of a Communion service in which the sacrament is received
3 : intimate fellowship or rapport : COMMUNICATION
4 : a body of Christians having a common faith and discipline <the Anglican communion>

Now why should anyone be denied communion?

[JVS]

37. A dictionary is a poor source for doctrine.

Here are some reasons Catholics have for closed communion.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/closed.html
I'm not even Catholic, but my church has similar views on what the sacrament is and the idea that distribution of the sacrament be left to public opinion is offensive.

[William769]

38. All I can say is then I'm glad I don't belong to a hateful church.

[JVS]

39. I'm glad that I'm not ignorant enough to assume that to withhold the sacrament is done out of hate

In fact, to distribute the sacrament to those who would not be receiving worthily is about as loving as letting them walk blindly over a cliff.

[William769]

41. Jesus died for all our sins, PERIOD!

[JVS]

43. Not for those which are not confessed and repented of.

Those ones stick.

[William769]

45. Not true.

Jesus died for all our sins, past present and future. Now weather you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and repent (which will get you into Heaven), thats a whole other story.

[flaminbats]

40. public opinion polls do not effect my religious beliefs..

I treat communion and prayer as my personal time with God. It gives me a chance to think about the sins and the mistakes I have recently made, and reminds me that I am not more sacred than another sinner.

[JVS]

42. What you believe and what a priest or pastor's duties are may be two very different things

Corinthians 11
25In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
26For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
27Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.


If you allow people to commune who are have not repented, or people who do not acknowledge that the sacrament is the very blood and body of Christ, then you are assisting them in worsening their spiritual status. You're throwing concrete life-preservers.

[flaminbats]

44. if I want a concrete life-preserver, I'll become a Republican..

I don't believe in every word of the Bible, but I think everyone should have the right to.

you can probably find just as many flaws in the church I attend as I can find in the church you attend. but you'll probably agree that our government should never treat one religion or denomination as more or less sacred than another.

[demoleft]

62. ...and should have a look back at the New Testament...

...or buy a more precise translation. Communion is Christ's body renovating pardon and faith. They didn't even deny that to Pinochet, the Chile's dictator...

No pity, no mercy, no understanding of people sorrow...These are politicians' features, not priests'...

[Maribelle]

9. The church vs. U.S. laws?

I thought Giuliani said he was personally against it?

I wonder if the good priest of the Manhattan church would also deny communion because of a person's public support for dropping cluster bombs on the "breathing" innocent children of Iraq? Is this also against church teaching? Perhaps one of his church members could ask him.

[Mz Pip]

10. And I'd deny that church

tax exemptions.

I'm really getting fed up with the churches with millions in the bank getting tax exemptions while they demand their views become public policy.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[truebrit71]

11. Amen to that!

The church needs to stay out of public policy and stick to what it's good at, covering up child-abuse crimes....

[DemSoccerMom]

12. Sadly,

I think most priests are for sale. And I think this is nothing more than a ploy by this priest to try and sway staunch Catholics away from Giuliani.

My father was married before he met my mother. They (my dad and his first wife) were pretty strict Catholics. Well, when they got divorced, he remarried my mom. B/c my mom isn't Catholic, it wasn't an issue and he just converted to her religion.

However, when my dad's ex-wife wanted to get remarried in the Catholic church, she simply had to PAY a fee (?). I think it was called something like the "Sinner Fee" or something like that (I'm not completely sure -- I'm not Catholic). At any rate, DESPITE the fact that my dad and his first wife had a CHILD, a sister who I love dearly, the church essentially annulled the marriage.

Now, I may be talking out of school here, but wouldn't that make my sister a bastard child? If they were never married in the eyes of the Catholic church my sister is an illegitimate child. Am I wrong about this? Could someone enlighten me?

Also, my husband was raised Catholic and converted to my religion (Lutheran) after we married. It's my understanding that although he takes communion in our church, he is still considered a Catholic by the Roman Catholic church and our marriage is considered illegitimate by them.

Whew. Organized religion (in this case, the Catholic religion) has quite a racket going, huh?

ED TO ADD: Oh! I almost forgot: I KNOW for a fact that his ex-wife still gets communion, too. At my sister's Catholic high school graduation (this was like 1989 or '90), she took communion. But, if the marriage was annulled, that explains it, I guess.

[CreekDog]

19. I accept the story, but...

Priests are charged with upholding doctrine. Some issues don't give them much leeway. Perhaps a vote on abortion is one an individual priest could let slide, but being divorced is not an exception any priest can grant I think.

And I don't think priests are in it for the money. Gosh, how much does an average priest make? I don't see too many Lexus in front of the parish on a weekday, do you?

[DemSoccerMom]

24. That's kind of my point.

How can a priest offer communion to a divorcee? My dad's ex-wife was MARRIED in a Catholic church -- BOTH times. How is it even allowable to annul (which means the marriage never took place in the eyes of a church) when A) the parties have a CHILD together, which means B) the marriage has been consummated. Especially if C) neither party "strayed" outside the marriage. When my husband and I got married, he originally wanted to be married at his church (we live quite a distance from my family/church). B/c he was Catholic at the time and I wasn't and refused to convert, his church wouldn't even marry us. Which is fine, and I totally understand the reasoning.

And while I don't think all priests are in it for the money, I do think there are a decent number of Holy Men who aren't very holy. You also have to remember that a priest makes, let's say for argument's sake, $70K. HE HAS NO BILLS other than any credit card debt and/or student loan debt he may carry. The church pays for his residence and utilities. And insurance (and in most cases, insurance for his family ). And car allowance (in some cases). (of course, he has to buy his own food) So that's like $70K of DISPOSABLE INCOME. And, $70K is a conservative estimate. In big cities and the suburbs, that number is much higher.

ED FOR CLARIFICATION.

[CreekDog]

25. Ok, I get you

The idea that Giuliani would be allowed to receive communion despite the divorces and whatnot, but disallowed because of a statement on abortion (statement, not an actual vote mind you) seems inconsistent with Catholic doctrine by placing one's opinion on legal abortion above one's actual actions involving a divorce. This is coo coo bananas.

[llmart]

78. You're naive......

the priest from our local Catholic church lives in our neighborhood in the nicest house/yard in the subdivision. He drives an expensive car and the blinds are always closed in his house. My husband thinks he keeps them closed so no one can see what he's doing when he's home.

True story.

[Beacho]

14. Holy Mother Church wants to play politics?

Then start paying your frackin taxes.

Pay to play, babies.

[sallyseven]

15. The pope should just keep quiet.

They are going to end up with fewer and fewer people practicing their religion. I never go to church anymore because of the popes. They are very selective who they want to bash and why. The church is very republican and obnoxious. They have no right to do this to people running for office. I say to you pope benedict STFU.

[CreekDog]

26. Rule of thumb regarding the pope, priest or parish

Go or don't go to church based on God --nobody else.

This makes sense too. After all, the point of church is God. Some mortal shouldn't get in your way if you want to go. On the other hand, there's no point in doing what you do in church for the sake of a mortal either.

Just my thoughts.

[flaminbats]

27. communion for every member..

I go to a church that offers communion to every member and to the guests who attend. Every person can choose not to participate, but everyone is allowed to. I would never join any church that denied communion to a person that attends the service. I would never join a church that pressured members to take communion.

IMO communion is sacred. I still remember taking communion as a child with my grandfather, and I still attend that church today! but if my church told me or any other member not to participate, I would immediately find another church.

[liberalnurse]

17. That is complete bullshit!

The Priest is making a personal choice, not acting as a Priest. Catholics are to practice their faith and be "judged" on their faith practices.

Politics, that is not about any religious belief. As a politician, he must not evoke his religious belief onto the country. The Priest is WRONG!

[Strawman]

18. What do they do when they refuse to serve someone communion?

Give them a blessing instead like the people who don't want wine? Seems like they wouldn't want to make a scene.

I'm an ex-Catholic, but I went to Church twice a week for years when I was a kid in Catholic school. I never remember seeing anyone denied communion by a priest if they went up to get it. I always understood this as being more self-enforced.

Half the people who get communion probably technically shouldn't be served unless they go to confession semi-regularly. Only time I ever went was when we had to for school and my parents never went. Why single out politicians?

[HockeyMom]

21. My daughter went up to Communion

To put it bluntly, she is a very "butch" lesbian. She was even wearing her rainbow pride pin. The priest not only gave her Communion, but he sought her out after Mass. He had given her her First Communion and apparently still recognized her. He asked her how she was and said, "Happy to see you here at Mass, Alli, may God bless you".

On another note, though. When will these "radical" priests start counting the heads of the "rug rats" of their PARISHIONERS? Excuse me, but I haven't seen many Catholic families with more than the national average of 2.1 children. Will they start questioning this too and denying THEM Communion for "aborting/birth controlling/sterilizing" their children out of existence in defiance of the church's teachings? Targeting the Catholic politicians on this issue is hypocritical when their parishioners don't give a hoot about it.

FORMER Catholic.

[AngryOldDem]

64. Why single out politicians?

I think there's a few reasons:

1) A definite shift in ideology among U.S. hierarchy, as well as a small, but vocal, following of extremely conservative laity who are demanding a return to more "traditional" Catholicism and strict adherence to Church teaching. With these people there are no shades of gray, just black and white.

2) Younger priests, on the whole, are also more conservative than their older counterparts, who came into the priesthood during and just after Vatican II.

3) The Church is waking up to the fact that it is rapidly losing relevance and its place as a social force in the U.S. and elsewhere. Incidences like priests refusing prominent politicians the sacraments is nothing more than an attempt to prove (if only to itself) that the institution still has some influence. It's going to throw around what little weight it has left.

When this came up with John Kerry, one bishop had the perfect advice. Matters such as this should be kept between the politician as an individual (not as a public figure), his or her confessor, and God. To make withholding Communion a public spectacle, as some bishops and priests seem to want to do, is being just as disrespectful to the rite as they claim the politicians are being.

[Strawman]

71. Well said

Of course you're absolutely right about certain priests' motives for doing it (it was more of a rhetorical question really) and you're spot on about why it is hypocritical and morally wrong.

[AngryOldDem]

79. Thanks. One more point...

No matter how well they try to dress it up as an issue of religion, theology, morality, etc., abortion is just as much a political tool for the Church as it is for the Democrats, Republicans, Right to Life, NARAL, NOW, and whoever else. That's why I so strongly object to these grandstand plays of withholding Communion: By that act alone bishops and priests are themselves politicizing the issue. To deny that is hypocrisy at its most blatant.

And, it's just one more in a long list of reasons why churches need to lose their tax-protected status. They cannot (and should not) have it both ways. If they insert themselves this forcefully into the political process, then it's "pay to play" time.

[MichiganVote]

20. And I'd deny the church property tax breaks

[diamidue]

67. And I would ask them to come clean

about their hundreds of millions of dollars in secret investments around the world (maybe in the billions by now). The Church has in the past heavily invested in corps. like Shell, Gulf Oil, GE, IBM, Bethelem Steel, etc. Corporations with less than "holy" backgrounds. The complete list of their holdings is secret, but evidently massive. One of the companies they owned was Istituto Farmacologico Sereno whose best selling product was the oral contraceptive, Luteolas - while at the same time, the Church was speaking out against birth control. It has had ties to the mafia; to Mussolini and Hitler. The Church to me is a filthy rich business venture. It has forgotten how to serve the poor.

[MichiganVote]

70. Tis true. Corrupt through and through.

[JVS]

28. I thought people on their second marriage were already ineligible for communion

[IndianaGreen]

48. I believe that you are correct.

It won't be the first time that Church teaching runs into the wall of logic.

[tammywammy]

60. I think it's okay, if the marriage was annulled

I don't know if Rudy's marriages were annulled through the church though.

[IndianaGreen]

47. The Roman Church is more concerned about what people think, than they are about pedophiles

among their clergy.

[MGD]

52. I'd tax the shit out of all churches that attempt to affect policy, says MGD.

Render unto Caeser the things which are Caeser's...

[Forkboy]

53. I love this stuff.

I hate both the Church and Rudy so I can just enjoy the show no matter which way it goes.

:popcorn:

[Chovexani]

73. Scoot on over will ya?

I'm right with you. Great show, ain't it? :popcorn:

[Solly Mack]

54. guilt, threats....doesn't that shit get old?

[AngryOldDem]

68. It does...

...and that's why many of us consider ourselves to be FORMER Catholics.

Life is too short to be guilted into the grave.

[pokercat999]

56. Wow what a threat. I'm going to deny you the

opportunity to fake eating human flesh and fake drinking human blood. What I can no longer believe in your superstitions? Rudy is better off by far if they ex-communicate his ass.

[jody]

57. St. Monica's! Monica Lewinsky is a saint? n/t

[knitter4democracy]

59. Ummm . . . what about his marriages?

Divorce can get you out of communion all by itself, so why not those? Did he choose to ignore that part and just focus on his abortion stance?

[Joe Bacon]

63. What about Arnold?

Let's see him deny communion to Ah Nold...

[firefox_fan]

69. So? Crackers taste better anyway...

Who cares...

[ryanmuegge]

74. I actually like his position on abortion.

It's good to hear a Republican sound like a conservative on one issue at least. Judges and states make these decisions, as it concerns to constitutionality. It should be of no concern for a president. It was good to hear him basically say that he doesn't give a fuck what a judge does as far as Roe Vs. Wade goes because it's their job, not his.

Now if he could just come out and explicitly say that that he intends to wage domestic economic warfare on everyone outside of the top 3% of the economic ladder while at the same time dominating the entire world through a policy of military imperialism (and, like a true "fiscal conservative," not caring a bit about the implications for the national budget...because only middle and working class people have to worry about that shit) - in the process killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to make sure globalization's even more profitable for his campaign contributors (you know, the two baseline policies of every single fucking Republican politician), I'd have a lot of respect for him.

Of course, why are we (not WE as in we on this board) even talking about fucking abortion?! As a species, we're facing inevitable doom from every direction and our news media's concerned with this shit?!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

75. jeez. all this noise for a tiny piece of yeastless bread? amazing.

although I don't mind passing the wine around.

[ohio2007]

76. But whatever happened to "love your enemy" ?

imo,
the priest isn't acting very "Christ like" in what he preaches