Alleged (Kobe Bryant) victim ‘bragged’ about situation at party (MSNBC)

[private_ryan]

I report, you decide........
************
Bryant’s accuser was in good mood days before charges filed, party host says

NBCSPORTS.COM NEWS SERVICES

EAGLE, Colo., July 22 — The 19-year-old woman who accused Kobe Bryant of sexually assaulting her attended a party just days before charges were filed against Bryant and appeared to be in a good mood and “bragging” about the incident, several teen-agers at the party told NBC News on Tuesday. Another friend told the Associated Press that the woman had “visible evidence” of the alleged attack a week later.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/942322.asp?0cv=CB20

[lazarus]

1. Isn't that interesting?

"Friends" are telling two sides of the story.

Heard on the radio that the "friend" who revealed the suicide attempt had been paid 10,000 dollars by the OC Register. And that they had had a falling out a month or so ago.

I say we just wait for the trial. Nobody really knows anything.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Here's a little tidbit about my hometown rag the Register

It’s interesting to speculate that Susan’s press-management strategy was inspired by Michael, and to conclude that theirs is clearly a match made in hell. It’s just as interesting to wonder if, more recently, Susan directed the Register to her husband on an unrelated item. In a July 8 story on charges Kobe Bryant sexually assaulted a woman in Colorado, Register reporter Kevin Ding turned to a source intimate with the Lakers guard—a man identified only as season-ticket holder "Mike Schroeder of Corona del Mar."

"As soon as I heard , I thought that doesn’t sound right," Schroeder reportedly told the Reg. "It doesn’t sound like his family or anything I know about the guy."

What does Schroeder know about Bryant? Oh, quite a lot: his tickets are just "one row from Bryant’s family."

It’s a small point, but illustrative: the world shrinks, and soon we see only what the Schroeders and the DA want us to see. And the Register? It connives.

http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/03/46/news-swaim.php

[flamingyouth]

8. Excellent point here

This is just absurd, and the whole thing pisses me off royally, but you and I have already discussed this, so...

[Wonder]

23. She says as she rolls her eyes,

OH YES and I am having a "real blast" with the "whole thing", too!!

[catzies]

17. Now THAT is an interesting link. Glad you brought it up, NSMA!

The OC Weekly looks to be a better source of what's going on behind the Orange Curtain than the established fishwraps.

"But it takes two to manipulate, and let’s be clear about this: the problem isn’t that the Register’s reporters get preferential treatment from the DA—that’s what reporters are paid to achieve in a competitive media market. The problem is the apparent quid pro quo, the possibility that the Register’s chummy, dumbed-down coverage of a dangerous public official is payment for that access. In that deal, the Register’s readers are losers—and so are its reporters. I mean, guys, what’s the value in kissing ass if you’re not even going to write about it?"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. BTW for clarification for people who won't click the story

the DA in this story is Tony Rackaukus, the Orange County DA on another matter.

[Uzybone]

18. well said

counterclaims and charges flying left and right. Teenagers with grudges, star eyes and other motives knowing the media will rush to print anything they say. lets just wait for the trial.

[Wonder]

22. amazing how fast you find out who your "friends" are

that is of course IF the alleged victim is telling the truth.

And I say we just wait for the trial, also. Nobody really knows anything.

[private_ryan]

27. even then people will lie if they can get away with it

Kobe will say he didn't do it cause he risks jail, she will say he did it because she risks everything too.

[Wonder]

50. well yes but I do not understand the point you are making

my point is why take bets on either party at this early stage? For the most part that is what some are doing. Beyond a reasonable doubt they are second guessing what are presumed facts not from the sources themselves but from the media and based on no real conclusive information they are presuming which one of the two is guilty

Why choose to vilify one over the other and right out of the gait based solely on what the media is reporting? With those vilifying the alleged victim falling under deserved scrutiny, not in defense of the alleged victim but to draw attention to the negative ATTITUDES that serve to discourage actual rape victims from come forward and also serve to seriously impede their healing process.

There are rape survivors on these thread some at present who suffer from clincal delayed post rape trauma. Loud and clear they hear. The crime is grossly misunderstood. My feeling is these gross misunderstanding or myths actually are both directly and indirectly responsible for the rise in rape crime itself. There exists the same blind spots with this felony as were prevalent in those days when rape was not even on the books as a crime. And still we have a long way to go, because of the ATTITUDES to which I allude and the UNCONSCIOUSNESS that these ATTITUDES embody.

[private_ryan]

54. and they are guys who are falsely accused of rape

maybe not a great % but still, we hear people being freed everyday . We have to go with what the media tells us for the most part, we do so for Iraq, WMDs, John Ashcroft etc. Almost every post here is based on a media story.

If I was a rape survivor and still had the feelings you describe I would skip the thread, but to ask us not to discuss because it hurts someone is not the way to go.

[salin]

83. I think that what is being asked

is balance in the discussion - especially given that the facts are not yet at hand.

And to equate the number of false accusations to the number of survivors is rather laughable given the HUGE discrepency between incidence of rape and rape reports. The false accusations are a small percentage of the REPORTED rapes, and thus a miniscule percent of the actual rape incidents.

I would ask you to consider and answer, why, in your opinion, is there such a high rate of underreporting of rape (eg women who do NOT go to the authorities)?

[northzax]

85. true, BUT

for the most part, the men being freed after convictions were overturned are often cases of mistaken identity. If Joe gets freed after DNA testing, or the recantation of a witness or the like, it doen't mean that Jane wasn't raped, it just means that Joe didn't do it. Since these are often stranger-rapes, mistaken identity is always a possibility. Somehow I doubt this case is mistaken identity, therefore you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

I challenge you to find me documentation of one case where a conviction for rape (not child molestation, rape of an adult) was overturned after the victim recanted the story of being raped. just one. otherwise, this is a useless red herring to follow.

[Tansy_Gold]

87. Gary Dotson. . . .

. .. was convicted of rape, I think back in the 1980s or early 90s. Victim eventually recanted, had made most of her story up out of bits and pieces of romance novels.

This is probably not a good example, because Dotson had other problems and I think was eventually re-convicted on other charges, but the victim (whose name I cannot remember off the top of my head) did recant.

The details of the case should be available through google somehow. It was discussed in detail when Congress was trying to pass a "victims of pornography" bill that would have held writers of romance novels liable for civil damages if a victim of rape claimed she had been coerced into submitting to her rapist because she had read romance novels in which the heroine/victim had "enjoyed" being raped. I kid you not.

[amazona]

89. link to dotson exoneration

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/Dotson.htm

Crowell not only acknowledged making up the rape story, she admitted to inflicting physical damage on herself. She was afraid that she'd gotten pregnant by her boyfriend through sex the previous day and wanted to have an excuse for her parents. (I can't make this stuff up, read the record for yourself.)

Dotson's life and ability to cope was pretty much destroyed by his years in prison and he became a hopeless alcoholic who got involved in trouble with the law for drinking, domestic abuse, etc.

For a time, Crowell (also known as Webb, which is I believe her married name) traveled around and did the talk show circuit with Gary Dotson -- a rather disgusting spectacle of her crying on stage and asking to be hugged and forgiven. I don't see where he had much option but to go along with this gag, as he needed the cash. (She paid him several thousand dollars.)

I am a woman, and I do not accept the theory that women always tell the truth and that only men are capable of sociopathy. There are damn few sociopathic women who make rape accusations and then come back and want to go on tour with their victims -- after all, in today's climate, there is too great a chance that the victim would come back and sue them. I would assume that most women who make false accusations never confess the truth. Unfortunately, I am not confident in the ability of our courts to sort this out. Dotson was convicted and it took a long, long, <b>long</b> time for him to be cleared. By then, his life was pretty much screwed.

I am just not going to automatically assume that it is impossible for a woman to lie "just to get attention" or in a situation where it seems it would not really benefit her to make up the story. Women can lie, even for stupid reasons. However, I am not going to automatically assume that Kobe Bryant is innocent either. At this point, frankly, all I know is that I just don't know. To me, the initial facts look bad for the woman -- she seems like an attention seeker. <b>American Idol</b> indeed. But I am a private individual and perhaps fully can't understand the outgoing cheerleader type. Maybe it would seem more natural for her to go to a man's hotel room in all innocence, just expecting to hold hands and be beautiful while he acts like a gentleman. In that case, shame on Kobe for attacking her and shame on her parents for not instilling her with more common sense.

Look, my mom met Wilt Chamberlain. He came out to her car and chatted her up and all that...but when push came to shove, my mom did not go back to his hotel room. She got in her car and drove home. Just because someone is famous you don't have to drop your whole life and assume it's time to accept a date at his convenience. The hotel room at midnight...why do that? I admit I just don't understand.

[mjb4]

2. Sounds like Ashcroft wanted a trial

if they did not know this prior, they are doing the girl a disservice

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. How about "You report, we wait to see what is said under oath"

Or is it time for another "alleged victim" bashing thread that has little or nothing to do with evidence and facts?

[private_ryan]

4. wait all you want

but this is a legitimate news story by NBC and we almost never wait for the trial to comment on anything.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Comment all you want. I will challenge you at every turn

May the games begin.

[private_ryan]

14. challenge?

that's why I said "I report you decide", I have no comments. You cannot however blame the media. If the story read "Kobe Bragged About How He Held Her Down" I bet we'd see a different attitude.

he might've raped her or she might be lying, can't rule either of them out..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. As regards a pending case of alleged rape or sexual assault

I would have the same response about statements not made under oath either way.

But don't you think it's a bit interesting that at least half of the story addresses the rebuttal to the "bragging claim" but the title is what it is?

Think it's a bit interesting that the host of a party she was invited to is talking to the press? Think he did it for free? Does HE not have ulterior motives? How much money will HE make from tabloids for having her attend his party?

[Wonder]

24. THANK GOD

for your persistance. I can not bring myself to be as confrontational as you, but you are providing a very good service. Call it like you see it... so far as far as I can see, as far as spades go, you haven't missed yet.

[joeybee12]

7. NOTHING in the news can be called facts or evidence

Even when the trial begins the media won't report on facts. Take everything that's reported now with a grain of salt, and remind yourself that nobody--other than Kobe and the victim--will ever know what really happened, so there's no sense in thinking you ever will know the truth. Celebrity scandal is controlled by the media and lawyers--it always has been--think Fatty Arbuckle and William Desmond Taylor--and always will be.

[flamingyouth]

11. Wow

Fatty Arbuckle and William Desmond Taylor - two of my favorite Hollywood scandals. You just don't see them mentioned here much. I have to admit, I was shocked to see both of those names here. A perfect example of media insanity and hoopla, both.

[joeybee12]

12. Reply to Wow!

Yeah, and that was 1921 and 1922. How times DON'T change.

[flamingyouth]

9. Right

Let's all defend Kobe. After all, he can bounce a ball well and throw it in a basket for lots of money. He must be innocent. Rah, rah, rally around the "good guy" Kobe.

Arrrrgggghhhh.

Well, there's MY comment!

[Paragon]

10. Mods, please LOCK this crap

Pure 100% Grade A flame bait.

[Wonder]

29. I have no clout whatsoever but

I would LOVE THIS TOPIC to be an out topic. There are worthier topics that have bred worthy discussions that have been outted in the last two years on various forums. Why in the world can not we OUT THIS ONE. So many of these Kobe discussions are truly unworthy, filled as they clearly are with subjective and very negative bullshit lacking in any insight at all IMHO.

I say OUT THE TOPIC. What is the sense in speculating on media spin rather than actual facts?

[madrchsod]

13. who cares?

everyday ,every hour some one get assualted in this country.yet do we hear about them ..no. why? money .it`s all about the money....oh yes and fame,must`nt forget fame....

[wontmoveon]

16. I've decided that this girl was not "raped" or "assaulted."

I blame Kobe for getting into this position but I ask you to think about this?

If you are a woman who has been raped or assaulted and are so shaken up by the event AND
you know that this charge is against a celebrity and high profile media event---would you be
out at a party? I couldn't sleep for months after my car was broken into and I wasn't even in it.
A party was the furtherest thing from my mind.

[salin]

26. I went on auto pilot

for a while after I was raped. Sort of translike. The full impact took a long time for me to recognize - but the initial period was spent - at least externally - trying to make everything look as if it was alright.

I don't think this fact alone is necessarily an indicator of anything. Each human being reacts to trauma (if she indeed suffered a trauma) differently. Not realistic to impute meaning to another person's reaction based upon your own reaction. Each is far to individual and unique.

[Wonder]

31. Are you a woman? Have you been Raped?

or suffered delayed post Rape trauma. Can't you see with your eyes that a crime such as this makes you a pariah. Very little around this girl is meant to encourage her to actually deal with any trauma she might have sustained. In fact the opposite is true, almost everything is aimed at having her swallow it back and get on with it because every time she might open her mouth it becomes clear in both sublte and obvious ways that:

1- no one understands what she is feeling including her
2- and that somehow she is guilty of something.

Seasoned rape councelors will tell you some girls do not even feel anything till upward to 5 years later the incident is so incomprehensible to them.

Nothing about her demeanor is suspicious of anything at this present time. Any comments made about her behavior only serve to highlight how completely in the dark people are in regard to the severity of the damage this particular crime causes.

9/11 triggered my rape trauma most of which I swallowed back at the time determine that he wouldn't ruin my life any further than he already had. I did not even know what was going on with me till I was diagnosed a year later with DELAYED post rape trauma. After 10 years up came with great intensity the most incomprehensible grieve and RAGE BLINDING RAGE the depth of it frightened even me. Constant nausea when I would negiotiate my design fees with specifically male clients trying to barter me down. AND THE FEAR AGAIN...the kind of delusional fear that has you hearing things that aren't their but you are convinced they are you run out of your house in panics... ALL OF IT CAME BACK AS IF IT WAS YESTERDAY.

Finally, something made me understand all of it was not related to 9/11 as I had first thought but to this rape that happened a decade before. I went back into temporary crisis counceling so that I could begin to understand what was completely abstract to even me.

I am still trying to keep abreast of what is it that

[Wonder]

40. I left off in mid sentence...

and have come back to finish it.

I am still trying to keep abreast of what is it that might trigger an episode... that is once I even know i am in an episode, and then once that is established I try to figure out how it was it triggered the rape so that as I move forward I can begin to side step triggers with more ease... episodes are not fun.

I will tell you this. I was finally diagnosed with Delayed Post Rape Trauma (DPRT) last october 2002, at this stage of the game I need this rape trial like I need a hole in the head, the off hand and completely thoughtless remarks that come along with this high profile trial I can really do without.

The only reason I even vocalize... is because some of these remarks are indicative of a kind of ignorance that at my stage now I found extraordinarily insulting. They just serve to reinforce all that was negative that cause me to NOT DEAL with this in the first. So little of it I dealt with then it came back even that much more intensely now.

I say this not to infringe on anyones freedom of speech... all are free to express their opinions even the most uninformed and biased ones... so carry on... that is your freedom... and this is mine.

[Lindacooks]

59. You are not her

Never judge what another person does after a traumatic event according to YOUR life. It's a well documented fact that most date rape victims don't even realize that they WERE raped until three months after the rape.

http://incestabuse.about.com/library/archive/bltimelag.htm

How a woman acts in public has NOTHING to do with whether or not she was raped. Some victims are able to act as though nothing is wrong, and even act maniacally happy as a result of shock.

[Wonder]

65. some victims actually become more promiscuous

than they were prior to the rape. People want to talk about rape; they must come to understand rape which is no easy venture. Even the rape survivor has her own troubles understanding rape, along with all the negative symptoms that arise because of a rape.

Yet so many more than should seem to think themselves authorities on how she came to be raped, what she felt before the rape that led to the rape, what she must feel like after the rape, she should be happy, she should be sad, she should take a bath, go to party, god forbid she should go to a party.

How long should she be permited to speak of the rape, must she speak of the rape, better she shuts up about the rape. From where I sit few understand rape and even fewer care to. Yet so so many seem to have so much to say about how they would have behaved, in their effort to understand rape and the victim, in essence they tune out what the victim is saying, like how in the world would the victim know, in essence they erase the victim completely, more important it seems what they would have done.

[jpgray]

19. Trifles and distraction

But if you see a women's equality issue or an evil feminist issue, go ahead and run this thread up to 1000. Your righteous indignation over two people you never met who wouldn't make the local news if one wasn't famous I'm sure has a serious purpose.

[Wonder]

21. So What!!

"appeared" to be bragging???

this only tells me how really determine some people are to smear this girl. Just like it "appears" the original poster is trying to do PERIOD

[Noordam]

25. Sounds like a person looking for $$$$$$

"The victim described Bryant’s anatomy when asked about it at the party, the host said"

[salin]

28. Then again another friend said she still had visible evidence

(would that be bruising?) a week after the event. Article gives information that could support either view.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Especially to people who only wish to hear that

otherwise it looks like a preemptive smear campaign. Like I said, we'll see what the host of the party says for money from a tabloid versus what he says under oath.

Funny how everyone but the alleged victim has credibility when the only person who had to backtrack on a lie so far has been KOBE.

[Wonder]

32. Get away from me.

Look, you can address me in any other thread but the fucking kobe threads. DO NOT address me in the kobe threads you do not know who you are talking to, BLINDED AS YOU ARE by your out of place bias.

[Lindacooks]

60. So?

That has nothing to do with whether or not a rape occurred. One of the most stupid things about the media is that they have bought into this 'Lifetime TV' crap that unless a woman is draped in black and in mourning after an attack, she wasn't raped. And NO WOMAN goes into something like this for money. The amount of scorn heaped upon her is something that no amount of money could ever compensate for.

[private_ryan]

61. "NO WOMAN goes into something like this for money"

did you really mean this or was it a typo?

[Wonder]

66. What's the problem private ryan?

would you be happier if the sentence was phrased, few women go into something like this for money or blank percent of women go into something like this for money. Is that the problem you have with the statement? Just curious.

[private_ryan]

71. exactly

you know it has been done for $$$$$ and it will be done again so don't give that NO WOMAN does thsi for money bs.

[Wonder]

72. ain't you are real sweetheart

I do not believe it twas I who made the statement.

I am not much for bullshit myself.

[private_ryan]

73. no but you jumped in

false accustions happen all the time, just as rape happens all the time. You're a woman and fear being raped /and not getting justice and I'm a man who fears being falsely accused of rape becuase it happens a lot. Once a man is accused he's automatically guilty...

[Wonder]

74. really I do not follow your rationale

I can not speak about whether false accusation of rape happens alot. Statistically speaking it does not appear that it does.

I EDITIED THE BELOW PARAGRAPH

Are you telling me that you yourself have been falsely accused of rape on more than one occassion? You say false accusations "happen alot". What are you basing this assertion on?

And how do you get from a man is accused to he is automatically guilty?

[Lindacooks]

79. Wrong again

False accusations do NOT happen all the time. And it figures that you're a man.

[salin]

84. there you go again

presenting these two events as equal. In terms of frequency they are not.

A great majority of actual rapes never get reported.

A small minority of reported rapes turn out to be false accusations.

Thus the incident of being the victim of a false accusation is a miniscule percentage of the whole number of actual rapes.

To be sure false accusations happen, and that is an awful thing. Both for the victims of the accusations, and for the general cause - because it gives credence to the rape deniers who assume ALL reported rapes to be false accusations (because, perhaps, they view them as equally common incidents). The ugly ensuing treatment then hinders real victims from coming forward. And hence the cycle of the devastating but silent crime continues.

[Lindacooks]

78. My, my

And now the name calling starts, a sure sign that you have lost.

[Lindacooks]

77. I really mean this

Obviously you have never been sexually abused or raped, or you wouldn't think that could be a typo.

[Wonder]

82. I get another feeling altogether lindacook

but it best I keep it to myself.

[Wonder]

81. I am not fond of life time

it is all so meledramatic it stands as a kind of glorification. The mardyrdom of women or something... it's like bad seriel drama from the 80's or something.

[Eloriel]

33. 98% chance

that he's guilty.

Those are the stats.

Only 2% of rape charges by victims are false charges, according to a Stanford study. Meanwhile we also know that thousands upon thousands of rapes go totally UNreported every year -- precisely because of the same type of stuff we see on this thread and the several other Kobe Bryant threads we've seen in the past several days.

I also saw Bryant's press conference. I've rarely seen a more guilty-looking suspect. He couldn't face the camera, he choked on his own words and the word "adultery" seemed especially false the several times he was actually able to get it out.

You can flame me for my pre-conceived notion about his guilt if you want to. The stats are on my side. Doesn't mean he'll be convicted, unfortunately. After all, O.J. Simpson is still looking for his wife's murderer. Isn't he?

Eloriel

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. While I don't share your assessment, the curious thing for me

is all the "beacons of justice" in KOBE's defense who have an issue with the fact that OJ (who did have his day in court) was acquitted.

It is a curious disconnect for me and a delicious irony.

[Wonder]

35. Only 2% of rape charges by victims are false charges, according...

university studies...and even so, I would be remiss if I did not say this.

The fact is we don't know in this particular case what is true either way. I just react to those that are so so so convinced it is the alleged victim that is guilty of something at this early stage. It is a prevelant ATTITUDE that is antiquated and based in conditioning. Has nothing to do with any truth.

Personally I can not say either way, though I could come up with all the same scenarios to either defend kobe or try him. As on the other hand I could also find as many reasons to only defend the alleged victims claim. I can not do that either.

THE FACT IS WE DO NOT KNOW.

[lazarus]

36. The stats don't lie

That statistic and more can be found at http://www.ncava.org/.

You're right about that press conference. It's as if his lawyer didn't prepare a statement, so he wouldn't appear coached, but instead gave him certain phrases that he needed to include. At times he appeared to be struggling to get the sentence around to a phrase.

I dunno. We'll see at the trial, hopefully.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. The 2% stat MAY be innacurate based on reading I did today

It was challenged by a right wing group. The last FBI UCR I read stated there may be 8% incident of false allegations but that report was then shot out of the water based on the fact that the FBI had egg on their face for not going farther and determining cases where law enforcement subjectively did not pursue cases. It also FAILS to take into account the number of UNREPORTED cases of rape compared to cases of false allegations.

The other point is that the category UNFOUNDED gets deliberately confused with the category FALSE ALLEGATION due to lack of uniformity across the nation in classifying. Cases can be unfounded for a variety of reasons and not be false allegations. Therefore it appears even that which can be verified as regards false allgations is FAR overstated compared to the incident of RAPE which is underreported by double digits

[Wonder]

39. Stats on rape one way or another are difficult to nail

because so many DO NOT come forward at all.

[private_ryan]

55. I see. because some website with a clear agenda says so he must've done it

he's an athlete and he's black too. Next case.

[Lindacooks]

80. That's what you are choosing to see

Yes, there are websites devoted to support of women who have been sexually assaulted. So what? You think that's a bad thing? All of your arguments about 'poor wittle men' who have been accused of rape by money-hungry women are really quite questionable.

[private_ryan]

88. I didn't choose to, he /she posted it and I replied to THAT post

n/t

[Wonder]

38. BTW thanks for the stats on that...

I thought the incident of false accusation was low...

but as I said, along with NSMA even these stats mean diddlY...Sadly she could fall into that 2%. I say this not because of anything I have seen or have had to read on this forum, but because the FACT REMAINS we just do not know.

it could go any way.

he could be guilty and be acquited
he could be innocent and convicted
he could guilty and convicted

she could be telling the truth. she could be lying.

that people feel the need to fight so fervently and go as far as to place one article here after another in their obvious attempt to prove the alleged victim is lying, which seems to be happening much more so than we seem to see articles placed here in her defence, is PROBLEMATIC. I have almost memorized now all the arguments aimed at trying the victim. Why? Because it seems that most often this is what is being done here. This is problematic.

[Dookus]

41. the only fervor

I see here is on the anti-Kobe side.

This is a big news story. It's worthy of discussion. The calls here to lock the thread or tell others NOT to reply to posts here are rather extremist, imho.

I wonder what the stats are for false accusations made against famous, wealthy men. Tucker Carlson recently revealed that a bogus rape allegation was made against him recently. Sadly, it DOES happen. I see nothing wrong with discussing it.

on edit: I seem to recall a few allegations against a recent President, too, that didn't hold up well to scrutiny.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I'm the one with all the fervor and I am not pro KOBE nor ANTI-KOBE

My objection for the millionth time is to the bashing and character assassination of the alleged victim with innuendos and stories about her past mental history, what everybody thinks that means and the accusations that she is a golddigger.

As far as the allegations against Clinton, the only one that was ever investigated in a court of law as Paula Jones. Clinton is also a rather poor example given that it was part of an orchestrated plan to discredit.

[Wonder]

44. like pissing in the wind...

...pardon the crude expression. There are those so conditioned you can say it a million more they will still fail to grasp what you have said a million times quite eloquently.

[Wonder]

43. I suppose you are one of those that live in a black n white world

she says as she rolls her eyes!

[Dookus]

45. sorry...

I don't understand what you mean.

A black and white world? Huh?

I said nothing about Kobe's guilt or innocence, nor did I ever say a word about the alleged victim. I merely said this is a topic worthy of discussion, and I'm surprised that some people would prefer to shut down the discussion entirely. That's all.

[Wonder]

47. Have you read through the entire thread.

If you did you would find it might be easier to understand why some would prefer the topic was outted. I do not believe it will be.

If after reading through the thread you still find you do not understand why one some might prefer the thread by locked or would prefer the discussion was shut down as you say, well than I direct you once again to that black and white world it seems some live in. Not necessarily you but some.

I am not sure I can explain it much better than that. At least not at the present moment.

As we move forward keep your eye on how many kobe thread will be open and count how often you will find the alleged victim is tried rather than kobe. It requires you really hear the points being made for why it is it seems biased that at this stage the alleged victim should be tried in the fashion she is being tried in these threads. Those that are making those points are not arguing Kobe is guilty mind you. This is the distinction that needs to be made

NSMA has never argued anything that could be remotely interpretted as anit-kobe, nor have I.

[Dookus]

48. of course

I read the whole thread.

but I'm still unclear on the black/white thing. I've presented absolutely NO opinions on the veracity of the allegations, much less conclusions.

I'm still stumped by your assertion.

[Wonder]

52. my apologies

my assertion was not personal to you per se and I mispoke. Better I would have said that I beg to differ with the assertion that you made that most of the arguments here were anti-kobe. I do not believe they are.

[salin]

53. I think the assertion which is being refered to is that the vitriol

is flying in one direction. Anti-Kobe.

The point is that those perhaps being more assertive are coming one from one direction -but it is not pro or anti Kobe - it is pointing out a dismissiveness towards the alleged victim and focusing on her flaws and likely character.

This is nothing new. Indeed this reaction and fear of this reaction is a huge contributing reason as to why rape is such an underreported crime. There seems to be kneejerk reaction and empathy for the accused (she MUST be lying!) that it is incredibly intimidating to even think about coming forward.

This particular thread is not nearly as ugly towards the alleged victim or towards rape victims as some of the other Kobe threads have been.

One advocated that the victim pledge not to sue Kobe for money (this would, it seems, clear up the issue of motivation for making the claims). This then became a cry for passing a law to prevent those who are raped from being able to sue - after all the crime would be paid for in jail time. On the surface this seems odd but not harsh, but there is no such advocation for this approach to any other crime.

Take the first point - this would say that if the woman really had been raped, she should promise never to sue to recoup damages (legal fees - associated with the pr onslaught to discredit her, nor therapy for the rape). What? Why should she give up her right to redress in a civil court? If she is making false accusations that would be outed in court and she wouldn't be able to make a case for a civil action. Hell if she is making false accusations, she should pay HIS legal fees.

Lets take the next - a law to prevent rape victims for suing for redress. This would make the crime of rape - a brutal physical assault - somehow LESS serious (and rapists less accountable) than mere property damages for which people often sue for redress. That is ridiculous.

In some of the side discussions, the subtle ignorance of the serious nature of rape - shows up again and again.

The reaction may be stronger on this thread than appears to be warranted - but I believe it is a reaction to comments made cumulatively over a number of threads. If one reads closely to the strong objections in the threads it is never about accusing Kobe (though there have been many hostile comments towards the alleged victim), it is about the content of some of the posts in how they treat the victim and thus women in general who may (or have) been raped. Sadly that is one in three women. Again, sadly there are a lot of us with far too much first hand experience with the whole dynamic.

It is very depressing as a progressive woman to see subtle mysognist messages, or the less harsh but very dismissive to victims messages that show up when the issue of rape appears in different news stories. Far too often the majority of responses, at least initially, empathize with the accused and assume that the accuser must be lying (as in "this is going to ruin his life"). Upon reading too many of these threads over the past year and ahalf - on the casual read it often appears that life for one who has committed rape (if convicted) is much worse than life for one who has to live a lifetime with the aftermath of rape. (In terms of which player recieves more sympathy)

If you read the thread again and the objections with this context in mind, it might explain the conversational/discussion dynamic.

[Wonder]

56. You see Dookus Salin is making a necessary distinction

that assertion that most often is fervently expressed in these threads, is anti-kobe. This assertion is incorrect. I disagree with that assertion. It is more the other a way around: what is most fervently being expressed in these threads is anti-victim. In actuality there exists more so an unnecessary smearing of the alleged victim.

In response to these smears there are those fervently drawing attention to the necessity to smear the alleged victim, rather than giving her the benefit of the doubt. Those that are pointing out the vilification do this for a reason.

When it is pointed out, this propensity some have to so easily vilify the victim based on what many times is anti-women mythology based solely on media spins which quite frankly are also aimed at smearing the alleged victim, what seems is also occurring is this is being MISINTERPRETED as being anti-kobe. In actuality they are not by a long shot expressing anything that could be interpreted as anti-kobe. In fact, I have heard these same posters now being misinterpreted as anti-kobe also argue that he is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

This is an important distinction that is not always being made.

The truth is IF she is lying whether kobe is acquited or convicted, that she falsely accused him would also have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. At which time she too must be presumed innocent til proven guilty. If proven that in fact she is lying. Lying women are equally as heinous to me as rapists, and I would opt for legislation that would make false accusation punishable under criminal law.

Career rapist progress during their career as what motivates the crime even in its least extreme form is power over, many times motived by deep hatred for women. The trick is catching rapists before the graduate to maiming and/or killing. Not that I am suggesting Kobe is in a catagory wherein he would graduate in this manner, I am not.

I have no idea how the DA has profiled him in this particular case.

It is not a fly by night topic as subject matter goes, that is for sure.

[Dookus]

57. You're right....

the posts are not anti-Kobe. I chose my words poorly.

But I was referring to the fervor of the defenders of the alleged victim. I saw no fervor on the part of Kobe's defenders. That's what I meant to say.

But it's a minor point. The issue I was trying to raise was that it's NOT illegitimate to discuss this topic. In fact, I think this thread is very enlightening, and I'm a bit dismayed at the desire of some people to shut it down.

Whether we like it or not, this *IS* news, and it reflects on larger issues in our society.

Now... to stir the pot a bit:

I've always been somewhat ambivalent with the notion that the identity of rape victims (or accusers) must be kept secret. On one hand, I understand the sensitivity involved, and have no desire to inflict further damage on victims of any crime. On the other hand, Kobe WILL be tried in the media and the public, too. I could understand if the identity of the accuser AND the accused were kept secret until the outcome of the trial, but that's not the case. If, for instance (and I'm not saying I believe this) it turns out the woman's claims are entirely unfounded, then Kobe will be stigmatized for the rest of his life and will lose tens of millions of dollars DESPITE his innocence. It just seems unfair. Further, the constitution requires public trials - keeping the plaintiff's identity from the public undermines that requirement.

[Wonder]

62. Kobe WILL be tried in the media

well as you can see SO IS SHE being tried in the media. What do you thing those articles that have brought up her "dark secrets" are doing. Anything in "the news" as you call it, that is aimed as an assault on her character is in essence trying the alleged victim, with no acknowledgement made that presumed innocent or not, there is a victim here as well, of a crime whos scars for the most part are on the inside. That they are on the inside in no way means damage has not been caused a rape victim. In the instance of sexual assault as others have already stated, the victim is also entitled some respect here as she as much as Kobe is on trial whether you realize this or not, the victim is on trial.

In what other felony crime, that you know of, is the alleged victim also no trial?

If it was homocide, no problem, there would be a clear delineation between the accused and the homocide victim. Not a fatal shooting or a hate crime wherein a beating took place, the victim for the most part would be addressed with much more respect, and dignity, and most assuredly not be smeared in the way rape victims tend to be, or for that matter those alleged victims that just so happen to be victims of celebrities or victims of those with high standing in the community.

It is most often the case when those of high standing cause harm, their victims are treated quite poorly by the press and then become additional victimized by the smears being made by those in the media that ALSO TEND TO FEEL, this girl is just out to get their dear sports idol Kobe. Look at Nicole she was also dredged a bit through the mud. If her husband was joe schmo she would have been left to rest a bit more peacable. The media could not do that.

Little can justify a brutal homocide, why oh why can even the most petty consideration seem to justify a rape (however little bodily damage is evident). Or if not directly justify a rape, give those that take it another opportunity to denigrate a girl who may also be an actual victim of a felony crime.

Damn the media can black out important senatorial investigations they can sure as hell put a little more of a lid on this this celebrity trial, but for the small and little minds that eat this stuff up, while apathetic to many of the pressing issues that face our nation today.

[Dookus]

46. no....

it's not a 98% chance that he's guilty. Statistics like that work on GROUPS, not individuals. We have no idea what the chances are that he's guilty. That's why there'll be a trial.

[Ernesto]

49. Who cares

Focus on what is relevant, not on a media distraction.

[Wonder]

51. while I am more apt to agree with you

than others on this thread. Unfortunately still requires care.

[Dookus]

58. I'm gonna guess

the people who post here care.

And believe me, I'm capable of having multiple interests.

But if you'll fax me the approved list of things I should care about, I'll give it the attention it deserves.

[Wonder]

63. LOL

!!!!

[realFedUp]

64. Tainting the jury pool....

All this "she said" stuff is tainting the jury pool...it
pretty much doesn't matter that a lot of it can't be presented in
court. Unless the jury really just decides on the evidence
presented, this information helps the defense team.

I think it stinks, but it's the way of the world and
high profile men lately.

[Dookus]

69. unfortunately.....

making the charges public taints the jury pool against Bryant.

It cuts both ways.

[Wonder]

70. the public charges also taint the jury against the alleged victim

Kobe is no slouch. If he is innocent. Justice will prevail.

If you have never sat in court under questioning from both the DA and the alleged rapists attorney, trust me, this girl has to be one hell of an ace she thinks she can lie through that. Not that there aren't women who couldn't I grant you their are.

One way or another, the defense attorney's job is to paint a picture of this girl that if she is telling the truth, she will not believe her ears the story that he will have concocted it may well have nothing to do with what occurred. Nor, if she is telling the truth, will she recognize that girl in that picture the defense attorney will paint, which he will insist is a picture of her, when it may very well not be her not even close.

Character assassination is the defense attorney's most potent weapon. Because it is a he said she said dynamic for the most part, BELIEVABLITY of both parties testamonies factors in very big in a rape trial.

So for what this girl will be put through on grill, what a crust she will have to have IF she is telling the truth to sustain the further damage cross will be to her, and this day will come back to haunt her too. Under jury scrutiny, IF she is lying she better be a real ace, because there will be members of that jury with some of the same bias evident here. Some of this bias we see here is completely unconscious. From what I remember, she is a witness for the state I do believe she has to be put on the stand, I am not sure he does.

Another sad fact of the matter in this society we love to hate a hero, and there will be some of that entering into the equation as well. Truth is there are those that no matter what the truth really is would love to see either of them lose. In this case to the eye it looks like Kobe has the most to lose. Probably there are those would love to see him fall. Dang our human natures!

[Forkboy]

67. I'll wait for the trial

last time an athelete I hated got accused of rape I jumped all over him.Turns out the charge was false and all charges were dropped.It's a lesson I remember well.

[are_we_united_yet]

68. I'm with you.

Everything is speculation at this point

[megaplayboy]

75. I hope character assassination isn't Kobe's only defense...

...because that's a sure fire way to leave a large number of people feeling he did it. If he didn't rape her the physical evidence will tend to support his innocence. He has plenty of money to afford good representation. If their first tack is to impeach the character of the accuser that tends to suggest they don't have confidence in the physical evidence.

[Wonder]

76. yeah but in he said she said

physical evidence can be moot, right? I mean unless he used enough excessive force all that we are talking about is the rape kit. If his defense is based upon her consent (he is claiming full innocence without mitigating circumstance so far that I can see), there would be the obvious physical evidence. For the DA to have any real chance of winning, if she is telling the truth, his evidence has to be much stronger than just the obvious. I haven't followed it so I do not have a clue what the DA is citing as strong physical evidence. Besides the sex I am not sure what her other claims are. IF you know please don't tell me. I don't really want to know.

I am just following the smear tactics more so than the case itself at this stage.

[amazona]

90. physical evidence says what you want it to say, doesn't it?

I have a link above to the Gary Dotson case, where the accuser eventually confessed to inflicting injuries on herself to support her lie. Dotson was in prison for many years before she confessed and the DNA evidence exonerated him.

How many years were the so-called Central Park Jogger rapists in jail before they were exonerated?

Physical evidence doesn't seem to be worth a hill of beans when you have a prosecutor wanting to make a name for himself. It can be twisted around to say whatever you like.

I am not very confident that the truth is going to come out. The only two people who really know what happened are Kobe and the young woman and if one or both of them is a sociopath, that person may have deceived himself or herself to the point where he or she doesn't know either!

It is a mess.

But, if I was Bryant's lawyer, I would not just rest on physical evidence, as different expert witnesses will interpret it different ways. I would want to rely on ALL the weapons I could muster. It will get ugly but I wouldn't see any alternative, especially if I believed my client were falsely accused.

[rocktivity]

86. Shouldn't MSNBC express equal outrage toward Kobe

for "bragging" that it was "only" adultery?

rocknation

[private_ryan]

91. I must've missed where he bragged about the situation

and where he described her features. Cheating on your wife is not rape.