Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries

[rodeodance]

Source: Reuters




Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries

By Philip Pullella 42 minutes ago

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.
.............

Pope Benedict authorized the publication of the document.

According to the CNS report, the 41-page document says the theologians advising the Pope concluded that since God is merciful he "wants all human beings to be saved."

It says grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ's special love for children, CNS, which is owned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference, quoted the document as saying.

Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning "border" or "edge," was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptised dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.........

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc;_ylt=AibGTvV6Bw7GoTIPHFzdb_es0NUE

[Dora]

1. For God's sake! How low can you go?

:evilgrin:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. LOL!

[damntexdem]

29. Well, the traditional answer to that is one major step lower --

but that that one has many levels, or "circles."

[slackmaster]

53. You're quick on the draw, Dora

WWGD?

[scot]

64. I prostrate myself before your comedic benevolent highness.

[bmbmd]

109. Jack be nimble, Jack be quick-

Jack no more need limbo schtick.

[DavidDvorkin]

2. People are still taking this stuff seriously

That's the amazing part.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

3. It's shit like "limbo"...

that drove me away from the official church very early in my education. It didn't make any moral sense to me at seven -- glad to see the church finally caught up. Now if they can get rid of their draconian view of women/gays I might be interested in hearing what they have to say.

[damntexdem]

30. Hey, it's a bit passe --

but it's still a fun dance!

[RoseMead]

4. What about Original Sin?

I may be wrong about this, but I seem to remember from my Catholic upbringing that the reason that babies and the others mentioned weren't able to go to heaven was that everyone has original sin. Baptism removes this sin. If a person isn't baptised, even if they live a perfect life, they still have original sin and and can't go to heaven.

So now the Church is saying God will waive the whole issue of original sin in special cases?

Oh well, that's the beauty of making up the rules as you go along.

[OneBlueSky]

15. if the concept of original sin offends you (it does me), check out "Original Blessing" . . .

as articulated by Matthew Fox, a compassionate theologian and teacher who was defrocked by the Catholic Church (he's now Episcopalian) . . .

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1585420670.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_SH20_.jpg

Original Blessing: A Primer in Creation Spirituality
by Matthew Fox

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Blessing-Spirituality-Presented-Twenty-Six/dp/1585420670/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3288439-8948764?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177092007&sr=1-1

Book Description
Here is a reissue of the critically acclaimed bestseller, named one of the "20 books that changed the world" in New Age Journal's Annual Source Book for 1995. Maverick theologian Matthew Fox provides a daring view of historical Christianity and a theologically sound basis for personal discovery of spiritual liberation.

In this revolutionary work, Fox shows how Christianity once celebrated beauty, compassion, justice, and provided a path of positive knowledge and ecstatic connection with all creation.

About the Author
Matthew Fox is the author of fifteen books, including Western Spirituality, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, and Original Blessing. A celebrated Episcopal priest and theologian, he is president of the University of Creation Spirituality in Oakland, California.

[Seabiscuit]

61. The Church has opened up a can of worms.

Wipe out limbo and you've undermined "original sin". For it makes no sense that a "sinner" should go to heaven, eh?

Well, if "original sin" is thus eliminated, that necessarily undermines the purpose of "baptism".

Once baptism is thus eliminated, which sacrament is next? And if "limbo" is gone, and thus "original sin", and "sinners" can go to "heaven" now, doesn't that undermine the whole notion of a "heaven" too?

[JVS]

66. Lutheranism seems to do fine with original sin and no limbo

[Seabiscuit]

71. That may be fine with Lutherans

but us renegade Catholics don't need no steenkin' "original sin". :evilgrin:

[JVS]

82. the can of worms isn't really opened

OS is not undermined by this unless they go and do something like say "unbaptized infants all go to heaven because they are too young to sin" But just doing away with limbo isn't going to cause a problem. And since OS stands, baptism stands.

[laylah]

87. I was always

taught unbabtized babies go to Hell! For that reason, although my husband was a Jew and would not HEAR of babtism, I babtised my oldest at the kitche sink. Scared the bejesus out of me to think my sweet baby would burn in Hell if anything would have happened to her!

Jenn

[Bridget Burke]

98. Who taught you that?

I went to Public School but had Saturday classes before my 1st Communion & Confirmation.

So I learned about Limbo!

[VegasWolf]

72. Yes, the Protestant churches all broke off AFTER the concept of original sin was invented. nt

[B3Nut]

73. Most Protestants hold to original sin, however

with the exception of adherents to Pelagianism, a theology named after Augustine's contemporary nemesis Pelagius, whom Augustine considered a heretic due to his denial of Original Sin. Augustine heavily influenced later Protestant thought by way of Martin Luther and John Calvin, and original sin is a core tenet of most evangelical strains of Christianity.

I used to hold fiercely to original sin, as I was a fairly staunch Calvinist. Now I think the idea that all of humanity is tainted because some fictitious woman listened to a talking snake is barking mad, but that's me...holding descendents responsible for a progenitor's alleged mistake is not the kind of thing an intelligent humane being does. It got me to start thinking that maybe, rather than Man being created in the image of the biblegod, that the biblegod was created in the image of primitive man, because that's what he acts like.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[JVS]

81. Point being that original sin does not need limbo to function

and since OS can remain, the sacrament of baptism is not in some kind of peril

[VegasWolf]

85. That's if one wants to believe in a theory called "original sin" developed a mere

hundred years after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus was a son of god and the early christians invented that silly three-headed god concept of theirs.

[yellowcanine]

105. "Original sin" is a shaky theological construct anyway, imo.

If by "original sin" one means human nature to be selfish, why yes, there is something there. But to say a child is born already tainted by sin is just nonsense and even if it were so, the idea that a ritual baptism is going to do anything about that is just a little weird. What happened to free choice? A baby has no control over the baptism decision so it is bizarre that it's eternal fate is controlled by the faith or lack of faith of the parent. Of course it is all kind of moot anyway, because if there is a heaven or indeed a limbo, what the Pope says about if is not going to change anything anyway.

[BigDDem]

5. Breaking news....

Earth revolves around Sun!

[Arugula Latte]

37. That's enough out of you, Galileo!

:spank: Heretic! Burn him!

[saigon68]

78. Actually it was Bruno who was burned at the stake by the POPE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

Giordano Bruno (Nola, 1548–Rome, February 17, 1600) was an Italian philosopher, priest, cosmologist, and occultist. Bruno is known for his system of mnemonics based upon organized knowledge and as an early proponent of the idea of an infinite and homogeneous universe. Burned at the stake as a heretic, Bruno is seen by some as the first martyr to the cause of freethought.


In Rome he was imprisoned for seven years during his lengthy trial, lastly in the Tower of Nona. Some important documents about the trial are lost, but others have been preserved, among them a summary of the proceedings that was rediscovered in 1940.<5> The numerous charges against Bruno, based on some of his books as well as on witness accounts, included blasphemy, immoral conduct, and heresy in matters of dogmatic theology, and involved some of the basic doctrines of his philosophy and cosmology. Luigi Firpo lists them as follows:<2>

1. Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
2. Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
3. Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
4. Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
5. Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
6. Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
7. Dealing in magics and divination.
8. Denying the Virginity of Mary.

[eleny]

6. Now, grandmas can stop baptizing babies in secret at the kitchen sink

[rodeodance]

68. yes, cause these infants will be saved:

...The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since limbo was never part of Church doctrine, even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century.

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.

"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them)."

The Church teaches that baptism removes original sin which stains all souls since the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

[eleny]

69. I've always found the whole thing nauseating

Well, after I got over the terror. They take the purest form of a human, the infant, and dab a smudge on its "soul". Drag it down to the level of adults.

For me, anymore, the only good thing about that church is its art and architecture.

[ChickMagic]

108. Derby and I call these steath baptisms

We've heard it was done to some friends of ours while their
baby was with grandma.

[HockeyMom]

7. Why do I get the feeling that

this is abortion related (zygotes, embryos, fetuses)? Call me one very cynical former Catholic.

[Gman]

11. It has to be related to abortion because

of the question about what happens when a child dies before baptism. They see life as starting at conception. They also now can say unbaptized children that die go to heaven. Ergo, aborted unbaptized fetuses go to heaven. Voila, discrepancies between whether or not life begins at conception and what happens to unbaptized babies are now reconciled.

[daleo]

31. If aborted fetuses go to heaven

Aren't you doing them a favor by having an abortion? By giving birth, you would risk their later sinning, and eventual damnation, wouldn't you?

[HockeyMom]

51. Very, very good point

[Gman]

80. Sounds reasonable to me

However, the woman that had the abortion and sent the fetus to heaven would be guilty of a mortal sin for which, if she never made it to confession and then died, would go to hell. Now that's one helluva dilemma. Now that's a good debate for a philosophy class.

[northzax]

95. ah, but a potential loophole

what if you didn't have the opportunity to attend confession? if God is willing to overlook a lack of baptism in cases in which baptism was not possible with children, then should he not also recognize cases in which confession is not available, if the person feels remorse and guilt and would otherwise attend confession, but was unable to before dying?

[Gman]

97. Now we're crossing the line into Protestant beliefs

in that all it takes is to be sorry for your sins in order to make it to heaven. But that is a logical step in the eventual progression toward the reunification of the faiths.

[Debi]

8. Except of course for the gay babies..They'll still go to hell

:eyes: Sometimes it's hard to call myself Catholic....actually most times it's hard to do that!!

[Ilsa]

50. Q: Has the Catholic Church decided that gays are born that way? nt

[PassingFair]

9. NOW what the hell am I going to do for fun..

and exercise?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

42. Well there's always limbaugh

[monmouth]

10. If they get rid of Purgatory I'm in some deep do-dooo...n/t

[cliss]

12. Isn't that funny, Limbo?

It's interesting though, after all this time, we still use that word on an everyday basis.

It's meant sort of "hanging in mid-air", "undecided" "whose fate is still unknown". We're still in limbo on our house loan.

Just goes to show ya the power of that Church to influence. I'm glad it's gone, though. I'm a Hindu, by the way. Walked away from the Xtian (Lutheran, actually) church in Sweden. As a Swedish citizen, you are automatically born into the Lutheran church.

Hindu is better.

[hunter]

13. Bummer. I know so many people who lived there.

:P

[liberal N proud]

14. So what happens t o all those babies who died before they were baptized?

I remember the teaching was that if a baby died before they could pour water over it's head that it went to limbo.
So what happens to all those babies, are they just gone? They have to have something to tell the poor soles who lost babies and believe that their baby is in limbo and now limbo is gone so where did the babies go?


It just hit me, this is the miracle that Pope John Paul did so they can make him a saint, he eliminated Limbo.

[MindPilot]

19. Good questions. There are probably still some people in hell

for eating meat on Friday. Or did they all get upgraded to heaven when that eternal law was rescinded by another infallible pope correcting the mistake of a previous pontiff who wasn't mistaken because the pope is infallible.

Excuse me while my head explodes.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

36. Catholic theology does not state the pope is infallible

Only when he makes ex cathedra (sp?) statements is it considered infallible and those are extremely rare.

[Seabiscuit]

62. So why is the Pope called the "Holy See"?

Wouldn't someone with a dirct link to God like that necessarily be "infallible", just like God?

[Bridget Burke]

100. The Pope isn't called the Holy See.

The Holy See (Latin: Sancta Sedes, "holy seat") is the episcopal see of Rome. The incumbent of the see is the Bishop of Rome — the Pope. The term Holy See, as used in Canon law, also refers to the Pope and the Roman Curia—in effect, the central government of the Catholic Church—and is the sense more widely used today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See

[SharonAnn]

79. And they're usually issues relating to women or sexuality or both. Celibate men have lots of

knowledge about those things, don't you know?

[JVS]

83. IIRC excathedra statements are usually about the status of the virgin mary

In the 19th century they said she was born without original sin
In the 20th century they said she was taken up bodily into heaven (i.e never suffered death) or something similar to that

[Bridget Burke]

101. No, they aren't.

If you really want to learn about Papal Infallability--here's a good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

[Up2Late]

23. "There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it wasn't possible..."

<http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-04-20T182115Z_01_L20287216_RTRUKOC_0_US-POPE-LIMBO.xml>

From the Reuters article:

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.

"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them)...."

My Mom was always very angry at the Catholic Church about this when my little brother died at 2 Days old. I need to call her and tell her about this, as soon as I can pull myself together again.

[JVS]

67. hell?

[Bridget Burke]

99. They go to heaven.

Or may be they're already there.

Read the article!

[Hobarticus]

107. They're hanging out with cavemen and others who lived before Christ

The "good" cavemen, that is.

[MindPilot]

16. So if church laws are eternal and the pope is infalible...

exactly how do Catholics explain this one?

"Mistakes were made"?

[Canuckistanian]

20. At least ONE of the popes must be fallible

Either it's this one or it's all the others.

Ergo, not ALL popes are infallible.

[Demit]

22. The Pope doesn't declare himself infallible all the time. Only when he speaks 'ex cathedra.'

[BigDDem]

25. "I dont recall"

[damntexdem]

32. Well, they can always say that the mistake was made by ...

the council in the 19th Century and declared the pope to be infallible. Then all bets are off. ;-)

[spoony]

38. Some on DU need to brush up on their theology.

Or their Googling.

[0rganism]

52. God upgraded His OS

As supernatural technology improves, eventually He may be able to extend His divine grace to those who died ignorant of His prophets' existence, the mentally ill, heretics, atheists, and perhaps even those currently in the deepest reaches of Hell.

[Flarney]

17. Ha! They have as much authority to bury it as they had to promote it: NONE! n/t

[damntexdem]

33. Oh, I'm in favor of giving them the authority to do whatever they want with Limbo, ...

if they'll just stop attacking the rights of women, and of men for that matter.

[Massachusetts]

18. The one by Chubby Checker?

Every limbo boy and girl
All around the limbo world
Gonna do the limbo rock
All around the limbo clock
Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock

Limbo lower now
Limbo lower now
How low can you go

First you spread your limbo feet
Then you move to limbo beat
Limbo ankolimboneee,
Bend back like a limbo tree
Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock

la la la etc (instead of instrumental break)

Get yourself a limbo girl
Give that chic a limbo whirl
There's a limbo moon above
You will fall in limbo love
Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock

Don't move that limbo bar
You'll be a limbo star
How low can you go

[Up2Late]

24. Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation' (CNS)

ITC-LIMBO Apr-20-2007 (1,240 words) xxxi

Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation'

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After several years of study, the Vatican's International Theological Commission said there are good reasons to hope that babies who die without being baptized go to heaven.

In a document published April 20, the commission said the traditional concept of limbo -- as a place where unbaptized infants spend eternity but without communion with God -- seemed to reflect an "unduly restrictive view of salvation." The church continues to teach that, because of original sin, baptism is the ordinary way of salvation for all people and urges parents to baptize infants, the document said.

But there is greater theological awareness today that God is merciful and "wants all human beings to be saved," it said. Grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ's special love for "the little ones," it said.

"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision," the document said. "We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge," it added....

(more at link)

<http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm>

[damntexdem]

34. Well, they tell the truth about one thing:

"We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge,"

It sure doesn't seem like sure knowledge, after all. ;-)

[Warpy]

26. This is a doctrinal nightmare for the Vatican Taliban

because if the innocent and unbaptized good go to heaven, why are they against abortion? Why do they want to put anyone through the misery of life followed by death and the possibility (some would say probability) of hell?

You'd think under these conditions they'd want EVERY fetus aborted.

Don't get me started on the hilarious doctrine of original sin.

[Lisa]

27. so basically, the concept of limbo is left hanging ... in some indeterminate place

.... with nowhere to go ... I mean, it's in ...

[ProudDad]

76. Best post of the year!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[damntexdem]

28. But won't that traumatize it's inhabitants -- some of which may have been there for centuries?

After all, the Church is acting just like any other predatory landlord, evicting tenants. They probably just want to tear it down to build an afterlife parking lot. ;-)

But they better be careful. For example, Dante tells us that Saladin went to limbo; and we all know how much trouble he gave King Richard when the latter tried to evict Saladin from Jerusalim. ;-)

[DrZeeLit]

35. This blog post is hysterical. You must see it! Pope tossing babies....

http://nonprophetart.blogspot.com/

the picture of the pope tossing babies is GREAT.
And the blog is awesome.

(not mine, but I do enjoy reading this one)

[Arugula Latte]

39. *Gasp* You mean ... religion ... can be WRONG? !!! Say it ain't so!!!

:cry:

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

40. The Vatican is a Den of Thieves.

Who cares what they think? Limbo has always been a stupid concept and it remains so - nothing has changed. To paraphrase someone, somewhere, "Whenever I hear the word ******ic, I reach for my wallet."

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IChing]

43. In Soviet Russia Limbo buries Catholic Church

[Zhade]

91. ...

:spray:

(In Soviet Russia water sprays me)

[HockeyMom]

44. So where do the "good" of other religions go now?

Those people who have not acknowledged Jesus, but have let lives in keeping with his philosophies? The Catholic Church used to teach they went to Limbo, not Hell like many Fundies say. Are they given a free pass to Heaven, or condemned to Hell, like the Fundies say?

A Catholic School grad who wants to "know".

[IChing]

45. The problem with Catholic Schools is

they are usually pretty good about teaching critical thinking skills
but not when applying them to religion.

[CountAllVotes]

46. I for one am glad to hear this

even if it is not true. I don't know. I had a dream about my parents after they died and I was told by a Catholic "order" that my parents were in purgatory (= limbo) and that is why I had a dream about them. If this is the case, then I guess all of those that I know that have died that I have had a dream about are there too.

I do remember that the most important thing that any parent/grandparent could do was to get the baby baptized so if it were to die, it would not end up in purgatory.

I shudder the thought of purgatory and always have whether or not it is a for real place - how would anyone, including the pope know?

To see the pope make such a statement I find to be very odd quite honestly for many Catholics still believe in purgatory.

Hmmm ...

The show goes on.

[IChing]

47. Isn't it amazing that the Pope can just make an entire realm of non-existence disappear?

:evilgrin: :) :) :)

[CountAllVotes]

49. yep one solitary MAN

...

:kick:

[ProudDad]

77. Follow the money

"I do remember that the most important thing that any parent/grandparent could do was to get the baby baptized so if it were to die, it would not end up in purgatory."

Follow the money...

[mcscajun]

84. Did he speak on Purgatory at all? I thought the statement was limited to Limbo.

In older Catholic teachings, they were two separate states. Limbo was reserved for the souls of unbaptized babies and those righteous souls born before Christ.

Purgatory was reserved for the faithful who had unconfessed (or unatoned) venial sins upon their souls, and so could not enter Heaven for a time. Prayers from the living were said to help these souls.

Of course, I've not been a practicing Catholic for a great long while, so I'm not up to date on the current doctrines (excepting this recent change) and I find this recent announcement interesting in an odd sort of way.

[Bridget Burke]

102. Nope, Purgatory is still open for business.

If you die in a state of grace, you go straight to Heaven. If you die with a mortal sin on your soul, straight to Hell.

Most us will supposedly go to Purgatory, where we'll suffer for our sins. After serving our time, we'll graduate to Heaven.

[Straight Shooter]

48. Looks like Heaven is about to have one helluva immigration problem.

:evilgrin:

[bleedingheart]

54. bwahahaha

[sakabatou]

55. And they go after scientists who change their own views

Who's calling who black?

[slackmaster]

56. Hey, they let Galileo off the hook

Pretty quickly too, as the RCC goes.

[BrainRants]

57. Limbo is dead? Was it the oxycontin or Viagra?

Praise Jeebus!

[Rowdy Church]

58. Talk About Funny

Previous message removed -- because I had the audacity to suggest that worshiping an invisible sky-god might be impeding humanities advancement --

Talk about the height of hypocrisy!

So its OK for the pope to decide that an imaginary place is doesn't exist anymore.

ROTFLMAO!

[AngryOldDem]

59. When did God die and put the Church in charge?

>>"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them).">>

GUILT, GUILT, GUILT. The Church has held this over the heads of grieving parents for centuries, as well as Catholics in general over everything from their sex lives to church attendance. Any institution that uses guilt to keep its members in the fold is a joke of the biggest kind.

I feel extremely sorry for the parents of deceased children who have probably worried themselves insane wondering whether or not God's grace included their unbaptized children, because the Church has left it an open question with room for doubt. Somehow, I like to think of God as being more generous with His grace than what the Church is.

I have had it UP TO HERE with the Church taking it upon itself to dole out God's grace, as if it is theirs to give in the first place.

[bleedingheart]

60. how can we not think that men make up religion when they arbitrarily decide limbo is not real

let us think about this...

for centuries mothers and fathers have mourned for their dead children who were lost in "limbo"...

and for what?

so that a few centuries later some cardinals wake up and say..."this is a bad idea"

in the end..there may be a god/goddess...but religion is the work of man...the way of explaining the unknowns...

I personally think the church is doing this in order to revamp it's image and retain members as well as attract members...but that is the cynic in me and I am a Roman Catholic...my kid is making first holy communion in a few weeks.

[onager]

63. St. Augustine invented Original Sin

You can read all about it in this great book:

The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason by Charles Freeman

http://www.amazon.com/Closing-Western-Mind-Faith-Reason/dp/1400033802

When Augustine came up with the idea, a bishop wrote him a scathing letter. The bishop told Augustine that his ideas about babies being born sinners was not only contrary to Xian belief, but to common sense.

However, the Church knew a great marketing tactic when it saw one, and Original Sin became official doctrine.

Being a card-carrying Grumpy Atheist, I think it's amazing that people still tout Augustine as a "great rational thinker." I guess he was "rational" within the context of misplaced hope, fear, wishful thinking, ignorance and unearned authority that is the Xian church. But in the context of the real world...pfft! I've heard more rational thinking from 5-year-olds.

[Odin2005]

89. IIRC the Orthodox Christians don't beleive in "Original Sin"

At least not in the way Latin Christians (Catholics and Protestants) understand the notion to be mainly because the Orthodox Church wasn't influenced by Augustine that much.

Didn't Agustine's BS derive from the fact that he used to be a Manichean?

[Zhade]

92. Man invented gods.

Checkmate!

:evilgrin:

[Bridget Burke]

103. He never got over his Manichaeism

In Augustine's youth, he followed the belief that there were two Powers. One was Light & the other Dark. The Light was pure & unknowable. The Dark was not simply "evil"--but what we consider "Creation." (I'm winging it here.) Therefore, things of the flesh were bad. One could either deny them or live it up--which Augustine did. He had a mistress & child. Eventually, he went back to Catholcism--& won fame & fortune.

This Dualism was officially heretical, but it continues to surface in the grimmer "flavors" of Catholicism. After the Reformation, some Protestant denominations embraced the concept with great fervor.

[cap]

65. this is a pro-life move

Pope Benedict is removing the stricture that stated that unbaptized babies have no place to go. They went to limbo because they couldnt go to heaven and they did no wrong so they couldn't go to hell.

He's now saying that the unborn have souls.

[VegasWolf]

70. Reason and rationality are inversely proportional to the amount of faith a person has. nt

[Oldtimeralso]

74. I didn't know...

that Rush was dead!

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laylah]

86. My mother,

with 6 (5 of which were girls) children in the 40's and '50's, always said her limbo would be bottomless baskets of ironing. May she FINALLY rest in peace! LOL. :evilgrin:

Jenn

[tomg]

88. Oh, hell. Now I have to re-do my lesson plans.

I wish they could have waited until Thursday to make the announcement. I am currently teaching the Inferno at a college that was formerly Catholic, so, of course, we still have a high number of Catholics ( I am an ex-Catholic)who go there. My students are always so flipped out when they find out that the Church still holds (well - now - held)on to Limbo.

Even admitting that they hadn't 86'd Limbo back around 1630 or so is so embarrassing that you think they would have kept it quiet for a few centuries more and then sort of said "Nah, unbaptized babies. Gandhi. The Buddha. Mohammad. They're all in heaven. Oh, we stopped that bullshit centuries ago, sometime around the same time we said our bad about that whole Galileo thing. Not really sure when, but it was a long time ago."

[VegasWolf]

90. True. It's amazing that christians think that Teddy Haggard, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson

and their ilk are more deserving of Heaven than Gandhi and Buddha simply because of a concept called "original sin." The Catholic Church tried to force feed me this crap in the 60's. It was one of the major reasons that I became the happy self-fulfilled atheist all these long years. Not everyone buys the crap that is "official" doctrine. Please tell your students that they don't have skip meat on Friday's anymore either!

[Arugula Latte]

106. I'm always amazed when people continue to fall for this medieval crap.

It's amazing the silliness people will put up with under the guise of "Faith."

[Matariki]

93. what, do they do this every 20 years or so? the catholic church must be desperate for attention. n/t

[Rex]

94. I can't wait for him to enter the Abyss.

nt

[northzax]

96. all those poor stillborn and other dead babies

who had to be buried outside the churchyard with the suicides because of this stupid rule.

[BigDDem]

104. Now, if the Catholic Church

could only explain where stem cells go when they die.