UK pilots asked to consider “kamikaze” scenario

[sabra]

Source: AFP

LONDON - Royal Air Force pilots were asked by a senior RAF official to consider flying so-called “kamikaze” flights as part of the war on terror, the British defence ministry confirmed on Tuesday.

Air Vice-Marshal David Walker did not, however, say he would order his crews on suicide missions, a spokesman for the ministry stressed, saying that Walker was instead simply posing a scenario for pilots to think about.

According to The Sun tabloid, Walker told air crews at a conference on Monday: “Would you think it unreasonable if I ordered you to fly your aircraft into the ground in order to destroy a vehicle carrying a Taleban or Al Qaeda commander?”

...

“As part of a training exercise, he wanted them to think about how they, and their commanders, would react, faced with a life and death decision of the most extreme sort — for example terrorists trying to fly an aircraft into a British city being followed by an RAF fighter which suffers weapons failure,” the spokesman said.

Read more: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2007/April/theworld_April59.xml§ion=theworld

[soothsayer]

1. O brother! If their intelligence is as reliable as ours, they'll be

kamikazi-ing wedding parties.

[Ganja Ninja]

2. Greater love hath no man than he should lay down his life ...

for the enrichment others.
:eyes:

[ClusterFreak]

3. Yes sir, absolutely, we'll fly kamikaze missions....

You first.

:eyes:

[hobbit709]

5. Yep! You the "Leader"

so get up front and lead by example

[MindPilot]

4. The more pertinent question might be

exactly why the fuck would I as a fighter pilot ever be in the situation of suffering complete weapons system failure at the same time I'm the only bloody plane in the sky? Are we following the George Bush method of aerial defence?

[Kagemusha]

10. Yeah, I thought those 20mm Vulcans were supposed to be the last resort

Seems odd to me why they wouldn't be.

[kaal]

6. “kamikaze” pilots are just beyond....

...the capabilities of the US and UK forces.. It would only happen in the movies.

[MindPilot]

8. And then there's the money

a fighter jet and it's pilot would make a VERY expensive piece of ordnance.

[w4rma]

18. A contractor will make a lot of money building a new a new jet. (nt)

[EST]

7. The comical aspect of all this is that "Kamikaze" tactics are

exactly what the al Qida was using on 9-11-01. Leaders should understand that showing the weakness of your own thinking is probably not a good idea.

[kaal]

12. That weakness is known. Doesn't need to be stated

If refusing to be a suicide bomber can be considered a weakness.... is it?

[CJCRANE]

19. At it's peak (before "shock and awe")

there were estimated to be about 5,000 active al-Qaeda members. That's hardly a standing army or a horde (also considering they work in small cells and are scattered all over the world). Active police and intelligence work is the way forward to combatting terrorism not kamikaze tactics.

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. "I'm sorry, sir, but I am too crazy to fly this suicide mission."

"Son, you are sane enough to try and wiggle out of doing it. That makes you sane enough to fly the mission."

The very definition of Catch 22.

[acmavm]

11. This guy needs to ask his son or grandson what they think about

this whacked out idea.

These rat bastards don't give a damn who dies as long as its not them or theirs.

[peacetalksforall]

13. The strategy we've observed so far ranges from barbarianism -

(invade and and pillage), massacres, communism (propaganda and news suppression), nazism (in many forms), facism (in many forms), religious (torture and executions), mercenaries (pirates), and now they are going to pick up a tactic from a single regime of Japan?

I think they may have shown their hand? Have they decided that the best way to take out one of Iran's nuclear target is with an aircraft torpedo?

I say they - because this is all a collaboration of the US UK and Israel.

Ridiculous? Any linking is valid with these people?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

14. What the FUCK are we fighting for?

Is ultimate victory beating the terrorists at their own game?

Are we victorious when we are more fanatical, opressive and violent than the terrorists?

[redqueen]

23. Good question.

*sigh*

[sutz12]

33. And it's one, two, three, ...........

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Don't ask me I don't gve a damn.
Next stop is Vietnam.

And it's five, six, seven,
Open those pearly gates.
Come on folks be the first on your block
To have your son sent home in a box.

[DemoTex]

15. "Unreasonable"?

God, I love British understatement.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. This is more common that many think

As a former pilot, this scenario is one that goes through your mind at some point.

[CJCRANE]

20. I'm sure it does

but it should be a personal choice for a pilot going beyond the call of duty not something an air force should come to rely on.

[Solo_in_MD]

48. I remember sitting with a bumch of fellow pilots once talking about the best way to survive

an intentional mid air. We were mildly soused at the time. It was interesting to see that I was far from the only person who had thought about it. Conclusion was that it would be harder to do than it sounded, but possible

[havocmom]

28. Yeah, but back in your day, the brass might have been more interested in your safe return

than brass today. Seems the more hardware they have to buy, the better their retirement options. When they have the potential of really lucrative jobs waiting, they might not be quite concerned with the pilots' safety. Maintenance and weapons system efficiency might slip a bit...

The brass left are not all the most honorable chaps these days. People are just a means to an end.

[Solo_in_MD]

46. I think you are a bit to negative on the military brass

Everyone high level officer that orders a strike has flown them, at least in the USN. I have never served with one that did not care about the men. However, in the military the mission comes before the men. It a basic lemma and its true in all services. Also as a commander you know that you may be order and be leading your fellow soldiers/sailors/aviators to their deaths. Its part of the job that does not get talked about a lot.

Feel free to critique the civilian leadership, since they come in at the top and do not rise through the combat ranks. I am quite serious when I say I still believe that the combat branch leadership is still on the level. People who grew up being part of the pointy end of the spear tend to pretty focused and understand what matters for the people who are there.

Please note that combat branches is a term with specific meaning. Understand it before you flame...

[havocmom]

49. LOL: seems lots of the good brass got canned

and too many now are bushco ass kissers. And lots do go through that revolving door into jobs with the Military Industrial Complex.

Spent most of my formative years on or near bases - Family livelihood connected (though at much lower pay than generals go on to get). Very pro-military family traditions. But I call em like I see em. Too many left at the top now are puppets. If they don't agree with cheney/bush, they are SOL.

[Solo_in_MD]

51. Thus my qualifier about combat branches

The combat parts of the military are IMO still straight shooters. They are the people who go into harms way. Reality counts, having the right equipment matters. I was lead by officers who still flew strikes with us. They did cats and traps just like the rest us, and took the same risks. That is leadership and that builds trust.

REMFs etc are a different story. For example, Poindexter was an intel weenie, the worst thing he risked getting was a paper cut.

[havocmom]

52. Sadly, those chaps report to the fools in the big five sided building

:shrug:

I have great respect for the combat officers I have known and especially old mustangs, but the top boys in the club... decency there seems a rare commodity under the junta.

edited for typo

[DrDan]

17. so Blair does not have the courage to put on a uniform

like junior, cheney, etc.

But he would allow his pilots to consciously and intentionally give their lives . . .

wow - talk about hubris

[DavidDvorkin]

21. "Only if you're in the plane with me, sir."

[Briar]

22. If only

they were so outraged when ordered to kill other people rather than themselves.

[VegasWolf]

24. "You go first. I'll, err, be right behind you." nt

[Javaman]

25. What. the. fuck?

isn't this why fighter planes have ejection seats now?

kidding aside.

perhaps this RAF official should read his history before trying to convince his pilots of the kamikaze option.

What a colossal fucktard.

Sigh, I get so tired of living in an alternative universe.

[havocmom]

26. The Brit Brass seems to have hit upon a partial solution to treating Veterans

AND also funneling more cash to arms manufacturers.

Any doubt this war is really about THE MONEY they can steal?

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

27. Thought experiment, nothing more

N/T

[Fresh_Start]

29. At least the emperor was a descendent of the Gods

so dying for the emperor was dying in duty to your God.
Who'd want to die for Blair or Bush or the senior RAF officer?

[onehandle]

30. Isn't the modern military automated?

According to military recruitment commercials here in 'merica, it's all one big remote-controlled video game.

The Brits need to get with the program.

[ckramer]

31. The guy probably suggested this -

Suicide fighters have more claims than those who dare not.

[krispos42]

32. I fail to see the necessity with this

The general probably got this from the book "Final Flight", by Stephen Coontz, in which terrorists temporarliy sieze an aircraft carrier, break into the magazine, steal a few nukes, and take off in helicopters. The carrier's crew manages to get one unarmed F-14 airborne after hasty repairs are made. The crew manages somehow (I forget exactly) to figure out which plane the nukes were transferred to, and the F-14 has to ram the plane in order to keep it from escaping.

I fail to see why this would be necessary. A fighter can blast past a hijacked airliner at Mach 2, letting the supersonic shock wave and wing vortices disrupt the plane and perhaps flaming out the engines. The figher pilot could nudge the elevator or rudder with his plane to divert the airliner's course, or even perhaps whack the elevator hard enough to damage it and render the airliner uncontrollable.

These guys worry too much.

[Lisa]

60. nudging or ramming, sure ...

I remember reading somewhere that Soviet pilots were trained for that kind of emergency -- as opposed to actually diving at a target on the ground, as that British officer supposedly proposed.

As someone of Japanese descent, I was taunted on the playground by other kids (quite a few of whom were British or had parents from there), about whether my dad was a kamikaze pilot. When I asked my folks what this was about (I was very young at the time), dad laughed and explained that if that were true, he must have been a very incompetent one.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

34. Fury at RAF Kamikaze plan

Source: The Sun

RAF Top Guns were stunned last night after being asked to think of being Kamikaze pilots in the war on terror.

Elite fliers were shocked into silence when a senior RAF chief said they should consider suicide missions as a last resort against terrorist targets.

Air Vice Marshal David Walker put forward the attacks — like those flown by desperate Japanese pilots in World War Two — as a “worst case scenario” should they run out of ammo or their weapon




Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007150271,00.html

---

GASP!

You seen it all now. Fresh from Rupert Murdoch's tabloid the Sun (UK)

[uppityperson]

35. dupe, thank you anyway

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2791895

[tanyev]

36. That's going to do wonders for recruitment.

[PDJane]

37. underlines the amount of care

The soldier gets, doesn't it?

[krkaufman]

38. Best response...

A third said: “The politicians tell us that we have the right troops and equipment for the job. Surely such tactics, not to mention the loss of expensive equipment and manpower, are not required.”

[aquart]

39. The appropriate response is "You first."

[Rosa Luxemburg]

43. Do you think the politicians would volunteer first?

[brooklynite]

45. What a coincidence...

Last night pilots slammed the suggestion as “utter madness”. One — summing up a flabbergasted “After you, Sir” reaction — said: “I’m prepared to give it a go but only if the Air Vice Marshal shows me how to do it first.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007150271,00.html

[whistle]

40. Fascism is already well installed both in the UK and here in the U.S. militaries

....what fuckwads these people are who seem to be running the show!

[whistle]

41. Don't forget that the Japanese had to drug their Kamikaze pilots

...in order for them to comply with the wishes of their supreme military commanders and the Emperor!

[jollyreaper2112]

44. Incorrect

Special operations, as suicide attacks were called, were almost universally volunteer actions. Well, let me clarify. Due to strategic blunders on the part of the Japanese high command, conventional units were placed into dangerous circumstances with no hope of victory or retreat. By virtue of the situation, fighting was suicidal. The banzai charges on Guadalcanal were not what the high command originally had in mind. The last mission of the Yamato was intended to be one-way but, given the unquestioned superiority of American firepower, just taking the ship out for a spin would have been suicidal, too. The expressly intended suicide squads, i.e. kaiten torpedoes or kamikaze planes, those were volunteer outfits. Bear in mind that conventional air attack against a US carrier group was already suicidal since there was a vanishingly small chance of survival against those odds. If your life was already forefit, why not fly the bomb in to the target to make sure you take some of the foreign devils with you? And the logic did hold, at least for a while. Anti-aircraft armament on American ships was designed to shoot down aircraft and was quite effective at that but could not smash aside an aircraft on a suicide run. A kamikaze's aircraft might be fatally damaged during the dive but it would still collide with the ship. As a comparison, the US Army found that native Phillipine warriors could take several fatal hits from a revolver while charging but would still have enough life left in them to kill a soldier before dropping. The .45 cal pistol was designed to knock that kind of warrior on his ass and keep him there. Same idea.

America has it's own share of suicidal heroes. The Alamo was a desperate fight to the end against impossible odds. In WWII, the defenders of Wake Island met death with bayonets fixed. The Doolittle Raid was certainly a suicide mission. There's just a peculiar notion in western minds that there's a big difference between a dangerous mission where death is almost a certainty and a mission that requires your death in order to complete it. That slim, impossible hope of survival makes all the difference.

As for the talk of drugging the pilots, that was just propaganda made up by the US. It was a way of rationalizing the kamikaze into something westerners could understand.

[reprobate]

50. A slight correction about Wake Island. Just saw a documentary on it.

The Marines on the island DID surrender when it was apparent that the less than 500 of them faced over five thousand invading Japanese. The were taken prisoner and shipped to POW camps where they were treated like slaves and used to build war related civil engineering projects.

One thing that set the Wake prisoners apart was the fact that during their months of repelling invading Japanese they developed a camaraderie that was stronger than most. This was credited with the fact that the Wake POWs had one of the best survival rates of all POWs in the Pacific theater.

There WERE war crimes committed on Wake, though. Besides the Marines on Wake there were hundreds of civilian construction workers who were kept on the island to shore up the defenses after the island fell to the Japanese. When it was apparent that Japan would lose the war, the several hundred surviving civilian workers were machine gunned. For this execution the Japanese commander was hanged.'

Are you paying attention, George?

The movie made in 1942 about Wake Island was pure propaganda. A number (half a dozen as I recall) of the surviving Wake Island Marines were featured on the documentary I saw last night - can't remember what channel - and they shared their memories of the war and their time in POW camps. They were honored at a ceremony on the base there.

Fascinating docu if you get the chance to see it.

[jollyreaper2112]

53. surrendering to the japs not a good idea

I never understood why anyone would surrender to the Japanese. I guess people just really didn't know how bad of an idea that was until after the war and all the facts were in. But then again, didn't all sides kill their prisoners? I distinctly remember Bill O'Reilly telling us that we massacred German prisoners at Malmedy. I trust Bill, he does his research. He never makes ill-informed statements when speaking off the cuff.

[picadilly]

62. Re: jollyreaper2112

Special operations, as suicide attacks were called, were almost universally volunteer actions. Well, let me clarify. Due to strategic blunders on the part of the Japanese high command, conventional units were placed into dangerous circumstances with no hope of victory or retreat. By virtue of the situation, fighting was suicidal.
...
America has it's own share of suicidal heroes...
The Doolittle Raid was certainly a suicide mission. There's just a peculiar notion in western minds that there's a big difference between a dangerous mission where death is almost a certainty and a mission that requires your death in order to complete it. That slim, impossible hope of survival makes all the difference.

As for the talk of drugging the pilots, that was just propaganda made up by the US. It was a way of rationalizing the kamikaze into something westerners could understand.


*MILES, ROBERT BRUCE (MIA)
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Robert Bruce Miles (03683364), Aviation Pilot First Class, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism and distinguished service beyond the call of duty as a Pilot of Torpedo Squadron EIGHT (VT-8) embarked from the U.S.S. HORNET (CV-8) during the "Air Battle of Midway", against enemy Japanese forces on 4 June 1942. Grimly aware of the hazardous consequences of flying without fighter protection, and with insufficient fuel to return to his carrier, Aviation Pilot First Class Miles resolutely, and with no thought of his own life, delivered an effective torpedo attack against violent assaults of enemy Japanese aircraft fire. His courageous action, carried out with a gallant spirit of self-sacrifice and a conscientious devotion to the fulfillment of his mission, was a determining factor in the defeat of the enemy forces and was in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

[jollyreaper2112]

67. still missing the point I made

Yes, there have been accounts of western suicidal actions when all is lost. There was another account from WWII of an American pilot crashing his aircraft into the turret of a Japanese cruiser. But again, this was after the aircraft was so shot up that the pilot was as good as dead.

Read what I said:

There's just a peculiar notion in western minds that there's a big difference between a dangerous mission where death is almost a certainty and a mission that requires your death in order to complete it. That slim, impossible hope of survival makes all the difference.

No westerner has a problem with the idea of "If you're as good as dead, may as well take some of the bastards with you." And among our demented citizens, murder-suicides are common. But This is talking about sane, rational people deliberately setting out on a suicidal mission that requires death in order to complete the mission. That pilot did not set out expecting to die.

There were many operations in WWII that were very, very dangerous. Look at the daylight bombing raids over Europe. But even when the bombers were taking 15% casualties, that's a whole lot better than a kamikaze operation which is looking at roughly 99% casualties, excepting the escorts and planes that turned back for mechanical problems. The American bomber pilots said "Until you drop those bombs, you're flying for Uncle Sam; after that, you're flying for yourself."

To put it another way, the difference between your example and the kamikazes is the difference between the soldier impulsively jumping on a grenade to save his squad vs. training up dedicated grenade-jumpers and putting them in the squad just like riflemen, corpsmen, and radiomen.

[Solo_in_MD]

47. Not true

no drugs, mostly volunteers. Some excellent books out on it.

[Fresh_Start]

42. UK supports Suicide Bombers Strategy

Senior RAF chief said that he's A-OK with suicide bombing just as long as the suicide bomber results in destroyed jets which support the UK backers of the current UK regime.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

58. that's an interesting point!

[stormymonday]

56. "I want you to lay down your life, Perkins"

"We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Fringe

If only Peter Cook was alive today.

Clearly, budget cutbacks means the British military are more short of ammunition than I thought.

[TX-RAT]

54. reminds me of an old Cheech and Chong skit

Today," he exhorts, "you will take your kamikaze airplane high into the sky, over the Yankee aircraft carrier, then take the kamikaze plane down, crashing on the deck, killing yourself and all aboard. Before we have the ceremonial sake toast, are there any questions?"

A hand rises tentatively in the back of the crowd: "Honorable general-san: Are you out of your fucking mind?"

[MasonJar]

55. He should lead the mission as the number uno!

[pinniped]

57. There's a slim chance of this scenario happening.

“Would you think it unreasonable if I ordered you to fly your aircraft into the ground in order to destroy a vehicle carrying a Taleban or Al Qaeda commander?”

The target would probably be the #2 coffee guy. They can't get shit right.

Boogeymen are everywhere.

[superconnected]

59. Anybody willing should be kicked out of their army.

Sucidal tendencies can get others killed. Definitely shouldn't have them around the rest of the troops in a war zone. That's gotta be worse than snoring and sleep walking.

[Lisa]

61. oh, great -- now there would be TWO aircraft falling out of the sky!

But seriously -- I suppose one would have to take into account whether there was a chance people on the ground would be killed by any such attempt to "take out" a plane before it reached the intended target. I remember from Frederick Forsyth's story "The Shepherd" that at least in his time, RAF pilots who ran into trouble were instructed to turn out to sea, even if it decreased their chances of being rescued, rather than crash in a populated area. Not the same as a deliberate suicide attack, but still.

[Oldtimeralso]

63. Didn't the French

Have a pilot who flew 12 successful Kamikaze missions?

[Canuckistanian]

64. Sounds like a Monty Python sketch

Colonel: Sergeant, where could I find the Kamikaze Division?

Sergeant: Right through that door, sir.

Colonel: Thank you.

(Colonel opens door, falls out of the building, screaming)

[Bucky]

65. Ths is less likely than our ticking bomb scenario. It's like a cut off your hand scenario.

Vice Marshall Walker has issues. How often does a fighter pilot find himself in pursuit of a terrorist controlled air plane? How would he even know if it were a terrorist controlled air plane? But say ground control found out and, by some rare coincidence this one fighter were the only air craft around. Given that, what exactly are the odds that every single weapons system on the whole plane were to suddenly fail, just all at once like that. Again, what are the odds?

Statistically speaking, a more plausible scenario is that a security guard at the circus finds out that one of hte clowns is really an al-Qaeda agent carrying a detonator for a dirty nuke bomb hidden in the little stunt Volkswagen that they're driving around the big top. He knows he only has 30 seconds to act and stop that bomb going off and poisoning half of Ipswich. Does he have the time to stop and search all the clowns there? Hell no! There's at least fifteen of them crammed into that Micro Love Bug!

The only solution is to pull out his machine gun and take out all of the clowns. Yes, the loss of life will be horrendous, but these are situation ethics here. It's better to gun down 14 innocent circus clowns in front of a big top full of impressionable children that to risk watching half of Ipswich slowly dying of radiation poisoning. Action, not jibber jabber, is what's critical now! Only twenty seconds to act now, methodically, deliberately, he pulls out the Uzi, locks and loads (or should that be loads, then locks--wouldn't that make more sense?), he draws a bead on the jolly tumbling jackanapes as they cavort, somersault and blow up balloons. He has to act now, while they're still clustered around the cramped little VW.

He raises his fire arm and releases a hail of gunfire. Whupwhupwhupwhup, the uzi almost purrs with the silencer on, and down go Chuckles and Jo-Jo and Slappy and Hearts. The clowns drop in a puddle of blood as helium balloon poodles slowly rise to the top of the circus tent. A stray bullet hits the gas tank of the micro VW bug and six of the clowns die in the back seat, screaming in a blazing inferno painted in festive pastel colors. Hobo Slim starts running for cover behind the cotton candy cart, but a well place shot pops his skull open and Slim drops, crashing into the cart's glass case, his face now covered in a sugary cotton web of pink and baby blue. Two of the clowns are still writhing on the ground. The security guard can't take any chances. Either one of them could be the terrorist trying to reach the detonator. He runs over to the struggling harliquins, pulls out his Bowie knife and finishes them off up close. He did what he had to do. It's like the Eiger Sanction, only with clowns. We're at war and tough times call for steely nerves and unthinking vigilence. Clowns had to die so that Ipswich might live.

God save the Queen.

[Bucky]

66. Say, can anyone pick out Air Vice-Marshal David Walker from this line up?