Stryker brigade to skip test run (ran out of troops - untrained recruits being sent to Iraq)

[bananas]

There aren't enough trained troops for the escalation/surge,
so Bush is sending in recruits before they finish training.

See Joe For Clark's thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3109645
especially post#10 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3109645&mesg_id=3109759

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/military/stryker/story/6320244p-5509832c.html

Stryker brigade to skip test run

Training here, not at Fort Irwin

MICHAEL GILBERT; The News Tribune
Published: January 12th, 2007 01:00 AM

A Fort Lewis Stryker brigade will leave for Iraq in April instead of May as part of the “surge” of U.S. forces aimed at reversing sectarian and insurgent violence in Baghdad.

The 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division will skip a previously scheduled trip to the Army’s National Training Center in Southern California and instead conduct its last pre-deployment rehearsals at Fort Lewis, a brigade official said Thursday.

The unit of some 4,000 soldiers will be the fifth Stryker brigade to go to Iraq, but the first without the benefit of a test run “in the box” at either Fort Irwin in the Mojave Desert or the Joint Readiness Training Center at Fort Polk, La.

Maj. Jim Brown, the brigade’s executive officer, acknowledged Fort Irwin offers “a great benefit” to units getting ready to deploy.

<snip>

[Monkeyman]

1. For those who do not understand

These troops are raw with no training. There maybe some old timers but it does not look like there are. What does that mean Body Bags or wounded. No Bull Bush is killing or wounding these kids. There is no excuse this vet will hear from them. Brothers and Sisters time to hit the streets.

[sanskritwarrior]

15. I respectfully disagree

I was stationed at Fort Lewis when this brigade was forming, it is made up of mostly veterans with 2 or more tours in Iraq under their belts. With a Stryker Brigade you cannot have inexperienced troops it doesn't work that way. Most of the guys in this brigade are guys already stationed at Lewis who reenlisted for the Life Cycle reenlistment option or guys who were in over strength MOs's such as Artillery and Supply. They reclassed to MOs's needed by a Stryker Brigade. 2 of my very good friends are in this brigade and they are anything but green and they tell me the same about a majority of the guys and gals in this unit. Now if they tried to send the 5th Stryker Brigade in Hawaii, then yes they are totally green and way understrength. An NTC rotation just allows you to get the kinks out of your OPTEMPO, it aint really necessary and it don't do much, but it is nice to go up against a force that is more dangerous then the insurgency. And the guys at NTC in mock combat whip our butts and cause casualties on a scale that the insurgents in Iraq can rarely match. Don't get me wrong it is fake combat in the Mojave, but the OPFOR at NTC is pretty good...........

[TomInTib]

19. This is terribly wrong.

You know and I know what happens to FNGs.

And if there are any old hands, their odds are significantly worse because of the green guys.

This is so wrong.

I just turned on my computer and I am already beyond pissed off.

Better go pour a drink.

Hope all is well with you, Monkeyman.

[sanskritwarrior]

21. Look........

I'm a Senior NCO, I agree with the dumbness of the surge, but let's get our facts straight. Where on earth in this article or any other does it say that the 4th SBCT is comprised of green soldiers? I have two friends that reenlisted for it, I almost did myself. The Stryker Brigades are being filled out with experienced guys from one of two criteria: Guys reenlisting for the Life Cycle reenlistment option which is basically guaranteed stability with a particular unit for 3-5 years. That means no PCS's, you know exactly when you can go to various schools, and most importantly you can pretty much figure out your deployment/home schedule. The second group of people going Stryker are people in overstrength MOS's, i.e. Artillery, Supply and Chemical........These people have at least one tour under their belts.

It is impossible to have an entire unit of green personnel much less a majority of a unit be untrained. By this time 2007 the only soldiers that don't have at least one tour are soldiers with less than a year in (Privates mostly) and people that have been hiding in STRAT assignments (Strategic). A typical brigade will have 20-25% lower enlisted, with slightly more than half being PFC's and below. With Spec 4's now being promoted from PFC at 18 months it is likely that less than 15% of this Brigade will be green. Edit: 15% is pretty standard for unit deploying to Iraq be they Army or Marine units. 20-25% green would be bad, but that would be hard to find due to PCS's retread retraining and MOS retraining. A Brigade of 20-25% that have never been to Iraq is an urban legend. If someone can prove it, I will gladly apologize.

Rage about the war, please do what you can so we don't have to go back, but be accurate. So far there is no actual proof that this Brigade is green or understrength and yet people are buying it. If I am wrong someone please direct me to the source.

[Monkeyman]

42. They had not even gone to Poke yet what does that tell you

Green and raw some of them. By the Way Come back ok

[sanskritwarrior]

47. LOL

I hate the Polk in summer. I grew up about an hour from the polk........:D

[Monkeyman]

51. Polk is the arm pit of the Military LOL Been there done that

[sanskritwarrior]

52. Sleazeville and Deridder......

great quality towns.......:D :D

[Monkeyman]

54. LOL

[TomInTib]

44. Yeah, I went back and read the article

I was just going on the strength of the OP.

You must keep in mind that Monkeyman and I have not seen combat in over 30 years.

He was infantry, I was/am SEAL.

The only thing I know about the Stryker business is that I wouldn't want any part of it.

I would not want to be part of a compartmentalized target.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tom

[Monkeyman]

48. You and me both .

[sanskritwarrior]

49. NP, it's a great article

I just didn't see the info in the story....

LOL if not for a cool reenlistment NCO I would be a Stryker guy right now........

[Monkeyman]

53. I was 11B I hate anything around me LOL

Plus my Combat was in the Jungle. I sure would not want to be in the Sand Pit

[pokercat999]

63. As a senior NCO you might be able to confirm or deny

a belief I have.

1. This "Iraq War" is an unlawful invasion of another sovereign state.

2. One of the first things a new American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines or Airmen learn is that he/she is responsible to follow all orders EXCEPT unlawful orders. Those he MUST disobey or face the consequences of his actions.

Ergo: All orders to deploy to Iraq and any orders given there are unlawful and must be disobeyed. Any military personnel following such orders are criminals that have unlawfully invaded another sovereign state. All military personnel MUST refuse to deploy to Iraq or face the future consequences at possible international trials. I don't think the UN can provide cover for our country or our troops.

If it's not unlawful it's certainly immoral and as a veteran (US Army 72-75) I can no longer support any troops that follow these deployment orders. My heartfelt sorrow goes out to the dead, wounded and their families but it's way past time to take INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY for their actions.

[sanskritwarrior]

68. Check out some of my other posts

My personal feelings are irrelevant. As of today Jan 13 2007, it is not an illegal war. No US federal judicial body has ruled it illegal, Congress has not ruled it illegal. If next week the Supreme Court ruled the war illegal I am free to march to the white house and arrest the President. Until such time as a body with real judicial power rules this war illegal I am bound to follow the orders of the President. Just because I have personal feelings that differ from the CinC I am not allowed to decide what orders to follow. If we did that then the military could launch a coup anytime they felt like it.

The oath of enlistment states what I can and cannot do. As of today in a legal sense I am bound to follow the orders of the President. If you can find me a Supreme court ruling or an Article of Impeachment that had been ratified then no I don't have listen to bush, if you can't then yes I do.

So to sum up, in military circles the war is not illegal because Congress and the courts have not deemed it as such.

I know I'll get shit for this view as I have every other time I have stated it, that's fine. The law is there to prevent abuse of power and the military arresting Bush now without the courts backing us up would be an abuse of power and a military coup. If any officer ever asks me to participate in a coup, my weapon is turning on him or her.........

That's as simple as I can make it.

[pokercat999]

77. Hmmmm, the problem is the war is never unlawful

by the standards of the aggressor. If we have to wait for congress or the US Courts the war criminals are home free. What is needed is a finding of illegality by an international body like the UN. Not that we would listen but it would remove the "just following orders" cover for senior officers.

Thanks for your answer by the way. I'm afraid if I were still in the army I would be in the stockade.

[saigon68]

64. Tell me please

What are you and your re-enlisting friends accomplishing in Iraq-Nam?

Just wondering ?

I know you are in it for the Bennies etc.

But what in your opinion are you doing there except spending lots of $$$$$$

[Big_Mike]

65. I know it sounds funny today.

But what about "Service to the nation" as my reason to stay in.

Granted, I retired before the current round of trips to the box, but I did Panama, GWI, and many other unpleasant areas over the years.

I wasn't there for the money.

I wasn't there for my education (although I took advantage of it post service).

I wasn't there for the tax free joys of life in a combat theater.

I was there because I chose to serve my country.

AFA illegal or unjust war is concerned: That decision is made at the national level. You do not have the right to say "This war is illegal; I will not serve in it." You might think it. But you do your duty. To do otherwise is to abandon those with whom you serve. People praise Lt. Watanda from Ft. Lewis. I cannot condemn him strongly enough. He abandoned a firing platoon. He volunteered to lead, but volunteering for both the Army and OCS during wartime. There is a line in his oath that states "...without any mental reservations whatsoever."

Now if they tell me to shoot those kids standing on the side of the road, hell no. Someone tells me to go burn down that empty mosque, fuck that. Those are blatantly illegal orders. But situations may change. If those kids have weapons and point them my way, hell yes. If I'm taking fire from the mosque and there is artillery available, I'll use it. Hell, I'd throw satchel charges of C4 at them myself. But those are actions at the individual level. Like it or not, the acts of the military were ordered by the Executive and approved by the Legislative. We are not signatories to the ICC nor are our laws subordinate to the United Nations, so our actions are legal. I don't think we were right to invade with the justification used. But Pvt. Snerdly does not have the right to say "This war is illegal, I will not serve." He can say "I won't join" or "I'm getting out" but not otherwise.

[sanskritwarrior]

69. Agree with your post 100%

I also believe Watada did a disservice to his men. Again the day the military is allowed to start disobeying legal orders it doesn't like is the day democracy will really begin to die in this country.

If I am given an illegal order then of course I will disobey it. As long as the President aint impeached, or doesn't have the Supreme Court rule the war illegal, then I am sworn to listen to his orders. Now if he orders me to shoot civilians in baltimore, then obviously that one is illegal.

[saigon68]

76. Interesting

Most of my friends got out and tried to adapt.

Some were wounded and were treated like shit by the VA

Some had PTSD and NOT ONLY were treated like shit by the VA, they were blamed for losing and many were and still are being denied benefits they earned.

I got out and led a few riots and burned a few cars.

I went to get an education and Ford vetoed the GI Bill.

I am waiting for the draft to start, so we can take to the streets again.

My children WILL NEVER serve in the armed forces. It is a tool that guys like Pierce Bush use to keep the class system alive. I feel sorry for those who die for nothing in Iraq-Nam

However if given the chance, we have a few things to do to the ruling class.

Thanks for being honest

saigon--- going underground

[sanskritwarrior]

67. I have reenlisted

because it doesn't matter who the President is, good people need to serve whther we have a maniac or a saint. I joined under Clinton enjoyed serving with him as CinC, you know as well as I do I am not allowed to state my feelings about the current guy, but I didn't vote for him either time and I am not a big fan of his work. Work is the nicest word I would call it, in private not in uniform I would say much worse.

The military needs good people it needs liberals, it even needs a few conservatives, the point is irregardless of who is in charge this country needs good people in the military to try and hold back the crazies from taking complete control. Just my .02 cents. So no I am not in it for the money, in fact that is quite insulting. If I wanted money the civilian market is much more lucrative. I am an NCO with a degree, I have had a prior MOS that makes me very marketable, I stay because I believe we are a decent country worth defending and worth saving regardless of who is in the White house.

One of my friends that I mention here a lot "Denny" is also a Senior NCO and a true Bush believer, we don't talk politics but in our last unit I knew he would save my life or try to as much as I knew I would save his. Politics is a contact sport in most places save the military, we can't afford to be driven by hatred or dislike when we drive off the FOB.

[Raydawg1234]

74. This is the way I see it: It's like if an NFL team skipped training camp.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. This reminds me

of the VMI cadets being sent into battle during the Civil War, because the South was just about out of men. Or the Hitler Youth having to man the anti-aircraft guns and help with the defense of Berlin....sad, sad, sad.

[Monkeyman]

3. You got that right

[MadMaddie]

5. Just when you think it can't get any worse for our soldiars....

[Monkeyman]

6. This is a unforgivable act

[hobbit709]

4. Support the troops Rah, rah!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
Sending untrained green troops means one of two things
1. Desperation
2. Total incompetence at the top
Actually 3 things in this administration
3. Both of the above
This will result in massive casualties and I will NEVER forgive the bastards that sent them.

[doublethink]

7. Cannon Fodder ...... You could see this coming.........

"Cannon fodder is an informal term for military personnel who are regarded or treated as expendable in the face of enemy fire. The term is generally used in situations where soldiers are forced to fight against hopeless odds, such as occurred during trench warfare in World War I. The term may also be used to differentiate infantry from other forces (such as artillery, airforce or the navy), who generally have a much better survival rate.

The term derives from fodder - food for livestock - but in this case soldiers are the metaphorical food sent against cannons. The term may have been introduced during the U.S. Civil War as a result of massed infantry charges against fortified enemy positions." -snip-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_fodder

With our troops being extended on multiple tours, back-door draft, National Guard unending commitments now .... etc... etc... you could see this coming ...... this is criminal, but the criminals are in charge and it doesn't phase them. Peace.

[Monkeyman]

8. Into the Valley of Death Rode The 600

[uppityperson]

9. I know the mom of 1 of these young people

He has already done 2 tours in Iraq, 1 was Baghdad. Never made up a will but did so this week as he is expecting to not come home as what they will be doing is so serious and deadly. He enlisted over 10 yrs ago (Clinton yrs), trying to make retirement and is faced with the choice of follow orders or go to jail and lose all he has gained so far. So, he made a will and is finishing up things before he goes, expecting to not return home but die during urban warfare. She is not sleeping much. damn

[Monkeyman]

10. Do you know how many have been to Iraq in that unit

[uppityperson]

14. no, that's a good question. I'll ask her on Monday

when I see her. He was hoping for a calmer short Baghdad tour rather than moving family to Texas for 2 yrs, but got this shit instead. I still would've wanted Texas, but not what he considers suicide missions. I'll ask her and see if she knows or can find out.

[Monkeyman]

16. Thanks if they are just out of AIT the Mom needs to make calls

[sanskritwarrior]

17. Make calls about what??

n/t

[uppityperson]

20. "AIT" and calls about what?

They were expecting to go somewhere this summer, Iraq or Texas. Seems like the timing got moved up and the "mission" changed.

[sanskritwarrior]

22. Ok....

I'm trying to figure out what you are talking about. Did this soldier PCS to Texas and then to a unit going to Iraq? Or is something else going on......

[uppityperson]

24. I don't know what a PCS is.

He was expecting the group (whatever the term is, I don't know the terms) to be sent to either Texas or Iraq later this late spring/early summer. Instead they are off to Baghdad by the end of April.

[sanskritwarrior]

26. PCS

Permanent Change of station, it's what happens when one leaves AIT, when one reenlists for an assignment or when one comes down on orders......

And how can you go to either Texas or Iraq??? Look I'm on your side here, just trying to figure out what's going on........

[uppityperson]

29. I don't know how anything. He said they were expecting to go 1 of 2 places.

He didn't know which, but was expecting to leave late this spring and go (probably) to Iraq or Texas. I don't know why these were the places.

How can you go either 1 place or another? Easy. You can't go 2 places at once.

Now they will be going to Iraq sooner, and be stationed (or based or whatever the term is) in Baghdad. Working in Baghdad, and trying to survive but expecting many to die doing active urban occupation.

[sanskritwarrior]

32. You can't just go

to Iraq. You have to go the home station of the unit you are assigned to. You then draw CIF gear, conduct your SRP, medical, legal and then you go. If a soldier told you they went straight to Iraq from AIT they are lying. Now 3 weeks after AIT that's within reason.......

[uppityperson]

35. I am not a military person.

No soldier said "I am going straight to Iraq". His mom told me they are being sent to Iraq again. If you tell me he was lying, shame on you for your assumptions. I have no fucking clue what these acronyms are, and have no desire to know.

[sanskritwarrior]

37. not directed at you.......

I was just making an example. If a new soldier fresh out of AIT says he got sent straight to Iraq he is lying. I aint talking about this guy in your message. I believe him........

[Monkeyman]

25. So they are a trained unit just not enough I get it Now

AIT is right after basic. Sounds like the unit was going soon. If they where not combat train yet they should of never been call up as a whole unit. Still lack of training get you hurt.

[uppityperson]

27. He said they were going to Texas or Iraq late this spring probably

I don't know how long any of them have been together, what any of them except him (he?) has done up until now. He is going to Iraq for the 3rd time and expecting to be killed there this time doing whatever the hell they will be doing which will be different than what they have done in the past.

[sanskritwarrior]

30. OK

so he was scheduled to PCS to Texas, I guess 4ID or 1st CAV and then deploy to Iraq. And why is he expecting to be killed there? I am going back in early 08, at least that's the rumor mill and we re headed for Western Baghdad, again rumor mill. I expect to come back alive, but it isn't in my hands. Why is he expecting to die??

Again, I am on your side, I just don't get the story, I don't know how to comfort you or help you relax as I cant figure out what is going on. Can we take it from the top??

[Monkeyman]

34. Looks like you got it covered

He Has got to get out of that mind set

[uppityperson]

38. OK. try this again. I am not a military person.

He told his mom who told me that they are going back to Iraq. He said that he thought he would probably be killed this time since things have changed, the "mission" is to occupy Baghdad further and it is more dangerous.

I don't know the proper terms, or the acronyms. You have accused him of lying to me, and now that you expect to come back alive in 08 so what. He is expecting to die because of what the conditions are NOW, or will be when they get there. He is expecting to die because of what they will be involved in when they are there this spring. Your accusations of lying, of throwing out acronyms to a civilian, of not reading what I have written are not helping me relax, if that is your plan, well, there you are.

[sanskritwarrior]

39. I didn't accuse him of anything

read again......relax, breathe....

[uppityperson]

41. "f a soldier told you they went straight to Iraq from AIT they are lying"

[sanskritwarrior]

46. A guy

with 2 tours will not be straight out of AIT. AIT is after basic........

[uppityperson]

58. he never said he is straight out of AIT.

I am not talking about someone who is straight out of AIT. Hence "he would be lying" does not apply.

[sanskritwarrior]

45. Ok

look, I have been incredibly polite, and even showed you I did not accuse this guy of anything. What basis does he have to believe he is going to die. I did a year in Baghdad and yes death is one IED det or one RPG away. But for every minute in danger there are hundreds of minutes of relative calm on the FOB, in the gym, at the internet cafe, etc......

What specific reason does he have to think he will die. I am a grunt as well, I don't talk about myself or my time in Iraq but I have been involved in two very large battles in that country. At no time did I leave the FOB and believe I was going to die. Did I think it was possible? Of course I did, did I believe it likely, no. There has to be a reason other than he "thinks his job will be urban warfare". At this stage he nor I nor anyone below Field Grade level would know exactly what we re going to be doing in Iraq. We might know the general area we are going to, we might know the other units we are deploying with, we might even be able to find out what's going on there now. Fact is he wont be there til april roughly 4 months from now. How are the conditions relative to april. You yourself said "so what" to me and my belief I will survive next year. Now is not 08 or April, how does now effect me or him? what will effect him are the conditions in april. So again I politely ask you, what reason now in early January does believe he will be dead after April.

If you don't know why, just say that and we can move on. Again I BELIEVE you, I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying........

[uppityperson]

57. I don't know specifics as his mom didn't tell me

I have not talked with him, but am passing on what his mom told me. She said he thinks he will be killed this time, that conditions are really really bad, much moreso than during his last time there in Baghdad. That is what she told me he said.

Fact is he is expecting to go in April, which is 2 1/2 months from now. Fact is that conditions change all the time and there may be a big change between 2006 and 2008. Conditions are relative to what he is expecting in April by what he has heard or been told. I don't know if he knows specifics or has just not passed them on to his mom. I don't know.

I have passed on what I know. That is all. He said he will be in Baghdad, and is expecting to be killed there. That is what I am saying. I am done.

[Monkeyman]

31. Its a hurry up call up. They should not be called yet Lack of troops

Hell three times is enough. His family needs to get him out of that mind set. If he thinks he is going to die he won't be thinking clearly.

[uppityperson]

43. I know. Makes them more worried about him.

Knowing the possibility is different than expecting it to happen and the difference can make the difference. (may vs will)

[struggle4progress]

11. Gotta hurry up and surge! Before Congress puts the kibosh on it, y'know.

Cuz a dead kid ain't no more important than a comma when the Pres-dent's vanity's at stake ...

[calimary]

12. This. Is. FUCKED.

Just like the guy who's ordering it.

But it gives US more debate fodder. MORE legitimate arguments to use against him. Shit like this strenghtens our hand - and makes it just that much easier to convince a few more of the wavering to come over to OUR side and support ENDING this damned war. The more shit like this piles up, the more powerful our side of the argument, and the more distasteful it makes bush's position.

Bring 'em on, georgie baby. But be careful what you wish for.

[BrotherBuzz]

13. The ghost of Rumsfeld lives on...

As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want

[sanskritwarrior]

18. Where in the article

does it say they ran out of troops?? Is this a mistype??

[enigmatic]

23. THIS is why "the surge" will kill more troops faster than already

Sending untrained troops into a madhouse to get killed in even greater numbers than they have been already? Way to go W, you fucking idiot.

[sanskritwarrior]

28. Where in the article does it say this unit

is understrength and untrained?? Shame on the OP for a false headline. If I am incorrect someone please point me to the source that supports the OP and I will gladly apologize. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong..........

[uppityperson]

33. Undertrained. They are skipping part of the training. I'd say undertrained

"The 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division will skip a previously scheduled trip to the Army’s National Training Center in Southern California and instead conduct its last pre-deployment rehearsals at Fort Lewis, a brigade official said Thursday.

The unit of some 4,000 soldiers will be the fifth Stryker brigade to go to Iraq, but the first without the benefit of a test run “in the box” at either Fort Irwin in the Mojave Desert or the Joint Readiness Training Center at Fort Polk, La.

Maj. Jim Brown, the brigade’s executive officer, acknowledged Fort Irwin offers “a great benefit” to units getting ready to deploy."

---------------
too bad they don't get to to Fort Irwin's "great benefit"

[sanskritwarrior]

36. Ok, that is still an incorrect thread title

As for NTC yeah it's awesome to get schooled by the OPFOR and get put on your fifth point of contact. But it aint neccessary. It's nice to have but NTC can only host one Brigade per month, 8 months out of a year. On average we swap out 14-18 Brigades per year in Iraq. That means over half of us never go to NTC to get that training. NTC is only so big with only so many units to act as OPFOR. They cannot train year round as they are also subject to constraints such as leave, holidays, etc.......Ditto for JRTC. I have been to Iraq twice, once I got neither NTC or JRTC, the second time I only got JRTC at Polk......Yeah I would have wanted the training, but I can do my job without it......

[uppityperson]

40. you know what would help? To not use military acronyms with us civilans

it is like doctors throwing around medical terms, or (pick a job) throwing around jargon. I know that within a group, acronyms are shortcuts that all know so they work. We do not hold that in common and it would be helpful for communication to spell out the words as words.

[sanskritwarrior]

50. I will try

I have been in the Army 13 years now, I think in acronyms....... :D

[Monkeyman]

55. GET YOUR MIND RIGHT SON DROP AND GIVE ME 100

opps old mind set

[Monkeyman]

56. I got to go email me is you need to

Try to get him out of that mind set

[uppityperson]

59. I agree. How?

His mom says he is not talking to her much because she will worry too much. I have not met him, just am getting to be friends with his mom. How get him out of that mind set? How advise mom to help him, talk with him, etc? Advice is helpful.

[Monkeyman]

60. She needs to tell him how much she loves him

She needs to find a Combat vet for him to talk to. Send me a email I give you my email if it helps. Been where he is now. That how I got wounded. The family needs to show him he is needed. Its going to be hard but it can be done. You know my support is there

[uppityperson]

61. We talked, and she said she talked with him, that most people come back

I'll talk with her and ask if she would like your email to give him, or if she'd like to talk with you. I don't think she does much computing, but could always talk and will encourage her to encourage him and offer him this. He has a wife and child also, so knows he is loved and needed but still. Thanks. It is just a real pain.

[bananas]

62. Sorry about that

Right after starting this thread,
I acknowledged in the other thread that the title might be a bit extreme:
"27. I just posted in LBN so more people will see this
hope my subject line isn't too extreme."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3109645&mesg_id=3110074

[FogerRox]

66. Strykers & M-117's are a whole hellava lot better than Humvees.

[sanskritwarrior]

70. I think

you mean M113.......I'm sorry if it seems like nitpicking....... :D

[FogerRox]

71. No, M-113 is ancient . . . . . . , M117 is new

http://investor.textron.com/newsroom/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=150312&category=Earnings,General,Dividend

[cut.your.crap]

72. M-113 still in service

Mainly as a support vehicle in USA, but maybe they should rethink that???
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAV/is_4_93/ai_n6362165

I have a friend who spent most of 1983 in Lebanon. He attributes his life to the M-113.

[FogerRox]

73. M-113 is tracked & slow, Vietnam era IIRC

Some guys in a toyota could just do a RPG drive by on a m-113, the M-113 armor would never hold up to the modern RPG.... the M-117 is 70 mph, and seems to be the fav of the troops, over the Stryker.

[tabasco]

80. Wrong. M113 A4 survives an RPG.

And I've done 60 mph in one before.

[Raydawg1234]

75. Your post has a bad conclusion. You make it seam that these troops

are being sent to Iraq without completing 'Basic Training'. I am not a military person but understand that troops "train" well after basic training has been completed. The training exercise that was skipped was most likely intended to brush the soldiers up on urban warfare tactics. While this is unfortunate, it does not mean that they are sending "green" troops to Iraq.

The title of your post makes it seem like the article came to this conclusion, when it was actually you. This undoubtedly made this post into a flame-bait.

[tabasco]

79. Wrong. These are critical unit field exercises that are being skipped.

No battalion or brigade should be deployed prior to having an FTX like this.

Basic training is individual training. These FTX's are collective training for the entire unit and where units find their real weaknesses.

[tabasco]

78. This is an awful decision.

The so-called "test runs" are extremely valuable and productive field exercises.

No battalion or brigade should ever be deployed without this type of training.

But the Bush corporate mafia doesn't really care about soldiers getting killed needlessly.

[lonestarnot]

81. eye yeye yeye.