Mom says she couldn't nurse on plane

[deadparrot]

BURLINGTON, Vt. - A woman who claims she was kicked off an airplane because she was breast-feeding her baby has filed a complaint against two airlines, her attorney said.

Emily Gillette, 27, of Santa Fe, N.M., filed the complaint with the Vermont Human Rights Commission late last week against Delta Air Lines and Freedom Airlines, said her attorney, Elizabeth Boepple. Freedom was operating the Delta flight between Burlington and New York City.

Gillette said she was discreetly breast-feeding her 22-month-old daughter on Oct. 13 as their flight prepared to leave Burlington International Airport. She said she was seated by the window in the next-to-last row, her husband was seated between her and the aisle and no part of her breast was showing.

A flight attendant tried to hand her a blanket and told her to cover up, Gillette said. She declined, telling the flight attendant she had a legal right to breast-feed her baby.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061114/ap_on_re_us/breast_feeding_passenger

[Captain Hilts]

1. The flight's barely a half hour long. nt

[RaRa]

2. Many mothers like to nurse on take off and landing

to help with their kids' ears. Would anyone care if it were a bottle? No, so why does it matter how a mom feeds her kid?

[silverojo]

98. Because a bottle doesn't involve exposing body parts

1) She could have done it in the restroom, and nobody would've known or cared about it.

2) Many mothers who breastfeed will express milk and put it in a bottle for situations like this.

3) Having to crap or pee is an equally natural and equally overpowering urge...but if you do either in public, you can get arrested.

4) This woman's just one of those show-offs who wants to proclaim to the world that she's The Giver Of Life.

5) No woman with a shred of class wants to whip their boob out in public, without at least using a sweater or something else as a cover for modesty. Similarly, even a person with urgent diarrhea doesn't want to drop trou and let it fly when other people are watching. Refer to point #1.

What the media needs to do is ignore this desperate attention-seeker, and the judge ought to throw the case out of court. There was NOTHING stopping this woman from breastfeeding her baby in the ladies' room, in PRIVATE so there was no discrimination against her or her baby.

[customerserviceguy]

109. Do you eat your meals in the restroom?

Then why should a baby? I just cannot stand breastfeeding being compared to waste elimination functions.

[MissMillie]

254. precisely

well said

[Auggie]

294. Why can't we just have a family section on airplanes?

Put them in the back of the plane, near the lavatories, where it's nearby for changing infants and allows quick access for small chirldren.

[dflprincess]

358. Not to mention that if the mother is feeding her baby during

take off or landing, you can't be in the restroom - you must be in your seat.

[buddysmellgood]

132. Breasts are the equivalent of a vagina, penis or anus?

[LostinVA]

247. Someone always posts this on breastfeeding threads

Breasts can be seen as sexual objects, but are not in and of them self made for sex... they are made for breastfeeding.

*sigh*

[EFerrari]

152. But the article says "no part of her breast was showing".

So :wtf: is the problem here?

[Richard Steele]

168. There you go dragging FACTS into it. I doubt you'll get far...

...using that approach with this poster.
Someones got some serious ISSUES with this subject!

[EFerrari]

184. I'm going back to my Western. There were no breasts in the Old West

except in saloons.

Stay out of those, you're pretty safe.

:)

[pnwmom]

187. But there certainly were a lot of udders, as I recall.

Can you imagine all this fuss if men could nurse?

Maybe that's the long-term solution. Someday, they'll figure out a way . . . .

[EFerrari]

193. Woody Allen had it exactly backwards. WARNING! GRAPHIC!

[pnwmom]

201. THAT was a funny movie!

[Richard Steele]

189. No WONDER all those cowboys were gay!

That explains so much!

[Tight_rope]

319. Double.....LMBAO

[Telly Savalas]

451. Even if her breast was showing, what' s the fucking problem here?

It's the 21st century people.

Damn. Should we put menstrual huts in airplanes so that the general populace won't be subjected to the presence of the Unclean?

[EFerrari]

470. I was narrowly answering the charge of exhibitionism, lol.

Maybe we should just have separate flights for women.

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

157. Do you like to eat while smelling feces and urine in the bathroom?

The woman WAS being discreet. The baby covers up most of the mother, and her shirt goes down to cover up the top edge of her breast.
Breast milk is not human waste. It doesn't belong in the bathroom.

[last1standing]

164. What a silly strawman argument.

The purpose of separate rooms for excretion is sanitary not prudishness. Feces has bacteria that can infect other people and a smell that is not exactly pleasant. It amazes me that there are people still so hung up on the idea of nudity that they'll resort to any goofy strawman argument they can think of to stop it.

As others have said, you have the right to turn your head away if you can't handle the sight of a nipple. Please feel free to use it.

[Richard Steele]

165. You say she's just a show-off. I take it you know her personally, then?

QUOTE:
"This woman's just one of those show-offs
who wants to proclaim to the world that she's
The Giver Of Life."

As long as you are sharing your amazing knowledge
with DU, would you mind giving me next weeks' lottery numbers?

[Crim_n al]

170. You're hitting it right on the head.

It only takes 20 minutes to half an hour to feed a baby.

I'm sure all the women on the plane would be delighted
to be unable to use the one-and-only rest-room for that
length of time so that the mother can sit on the toilet
for the whole trip breastfeeding out of sight.

And breastfeeding is partly about giving the child immunity
to common diseases. Well imagine how many more diseases
it can become immune to, being fed in that setting.

[Richard Steele]

190. Hi, Crim! Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Crim_n al]

198. Why, Thankyou kind sir.

O8)

[PsychoDad]

173. A woman has a "God Given Right" to feed her child...

with her breast.

There is nothing disgusting about it, on the contrary a mother nursing is one of the most beautiful sights in all of creation. It is a shared human experience.

The breast wasn't even showing. Rarely does any woman just "flip out her boob" to feed her child. Every mother I've known has used tenderness and discretion.

That's my fatwa, and I'm sticking to it :) .

peace.

[MuseRider]

177. Oh I like that.

"There is nothing disgusting about it, on the contrary a mother nursing is one of the most beautiful sights in all of creation. It is a shared human experience."

It certainly is.

[AnneD]

ITA, The term...

mammal just didn't drop out of the sky. That is how youngsters are suppose to be nourished, via mammary glands. Feeding on the plane during take offs and landings quiets the infant (and we are talking infant here). They don't know to yawn and can't exactly have gum or mints now can they? I would much rather have a quite infant than the alternative.

And eating in the restroom....really. Just the thought turns my stomach. You can't be in the restroom for take offs and landings anyway.

Oh, but the woman's breast was not covered enough you said. Let's put a hot sweaty blanket over the kid and see if he can still eat and breathe at the same time. What is this Gitmo Airways?

But wait, she could have expressed the milk into bottles. Great, a cold or room temp meal sounds yummy to me. I'm sure homeland security wouldn't hassle her over the bottled fluids :sarcasm:

So let me get this straight. You want an infant yelling and screaming during take off and you want a bathroom tied up for a flight. Our alternative is silencing the kid by smothering him. Instead of issuing a blanket they just as well give mom a burka. Some folks need to put on their adult panties on and deal with it.

[MuseRider]

275. Did you mean to reply to me?

I am totally on your side, just clearing that up.

It looks like you meant this for the OP but it hooked up to my reply above.

[AnneD]

371. I Totally Agree (ITA)

and was just expounding on the thought. That's all. Sometime you have to nest your reply for visual as well as academic purposes.

[MuseRider]

372. Ahhh, I don't always

know what the letters mean. I had seen this before but did not know, should have looked it up.

Sorry :blush:

[Sequoia]

393. Tell it like it is, sister!

[depakid]

200. deleted- for lack of proper words

[TommyO]

234. Not having read the rest of the messages

you just opened up a huge can of worms for yourself. Breast-feeding is not showing off, it's giving your child the nutrition he or she needs. It should be a non-issue, but there are far too many prudes who just can't deal with what's natural.

[nodehopper]

260. "but if you do either in public, you can get arrested."

yeah. the difference is you can legally breastfeed in public. see the difference?

one=illegal in public

one= legal in public

[bloom]

273. If you're lucky - the next time you fly you'll have an infant screaming in your ear.

Some people just don't get anything. Maybe a little reality would wake you up.

[Arugula Latte]

284. Hey, Silverojo --

BREASTS WERE MEANT FOR BREASTFEEDING. WTF is your problem? It sounds like you have some major hangups.

You can't breastfeed in the restroom if the plane is going to take off or land. Plus, there's no room and it's germy.

She wasn't "showing off" -- she was feeding her child! Jesus! I can't believe the archaic attitudes I see on DU sometimes.

Would you rather that the baby was screaming during take-off because of the air pressure?

BTW, you need to get over yourself.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

286. feeding your child is now crass?

[Midlodemocrat]

287. Without a doubt, the most stupid post I have ever read.

How's about you eat your next meal in an airplane bathroom?

:eyes:

[Katzenjammer]

313. "No woman with a shred of class" You've got damned peculiar ideas about what constitutes "class",

my friend. Or were you referring to social class?

[gollygee]

322. Are you SERIOUS?

To answer your points:

1. No one eats in a restroom. That's disgusting.

2. Not all babies will take a bottle. Not all mothers express milk well with a pump.

3. Babies can't wait to eat, and guess what, they also can't wait to crap or pee.

4. This pisses me off beyond all else. Wants to proclaim to the world that she's The Giver of Life? She gave birth. She is nurturing her child. That isn't a proclamation, it's her duty as a mother. Get over it, whatever your issue is.

5. Women are afraid to breastfeed in public because of attitudes like yours, but eventually moms get worn down. Babies need to nurse and when they do they need to nurse NOW. A 22-month-old, as in the story, can wait a little while, but their ears don't handle take-offs and landings well, and it's easier to nurse them so they don't have pain then to listen to them scream and wail and worry that it's disturbing the other passengers.

I nursed my daughter on a trip to Australia when she was 23 or 24 months old. No one complained, thankfully. I guessed that they'd prefer I nurse and they look somewhere else then if she'd screamed the whole (14-hour) flight and kept everyone awake all night.

[pnwmom]

329. Can you imagine trying to deal with bottles on a

long flight like that?

[Mad_Dem_X]

361. "One of those show-offs"

:wtf: Since when is feeding your child considered showing off?

Somebody's got issues...

[superconnected]

369. wow, did that have airs of mysogny or what.

I take it mommy wasn't good to you?

[ThomCat]

397. Seriously!

[Dervill Crow]

379. Good grief, if the breast is not exposed what is the big deal?

The article says she was discreetly breastfeeding her baby.

Added on edit: And if the plane is taking off, how would she feed her baby in the restroom?

[genieroze]

381. What does breastfeeding and defecating have to do with each other?

I would rather have seen part of a breast then hear a screaming hungry baby.
I breastfed all three of my kids. I usually used a receiving blanket to cover up because it made me feel more comfortable. Beside this was a while ago when many women didn't breastfeed it was discouraged my kids(who are all adults now)pediatrician.

[Ilsa]

383. My son wouldn't take a bottle when he was three days old.

And wouldn't mess with one later, either.

I nursed him on the plane when we travelled. No one died from it. No one had to hear him scream from ear pressure problems during take-off and landing. Get over it. It's a breast, not an asshole.

[Scairp]

385. I take you've never been in an airplane lavatory

There's hardly room to turn around, let alone do anything else. And why should women and their nursing children be segregate to the toilet anyway? I am sick of this obsession with the breast. Men fall over each other to see them when they are attached to some young thing, straining against a tight blouse, but when they are being used for their intended purpose, then it's "Get them out of my sight, to the shithouse with you"! They don't wish to be reminded that a breast was not created for them to drool over, but to nurture young, just like every other mammal on the planet. People in this country need to grow up.

[ThomCat]

396. That is an amazingly offensive post.

1. As mentioned, nobody should be eating in a bathroom.
2. A bottle is an option, not a requirement.
3. Comparing feeding a child to going to the bathroom is just ignorant.
4. B.S. Are you psychic? maybe she simply wanted to feed her child and knew that it was her right under the law to do so?
5. Do you speak for all women with a shred of class? Who appointed you to be judge? I, for one, would disagree with your judgement.

[Left Is Write]

400. This post is so full of ignorance it's not even worth dissecting.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

456. EVERYWHERE we look we are confronted with Women's Breasts

Women's breasts and bodies are used to sell EVERYTHING! I am so sick of this being so pervasive and patently approved of. Yet some are offended at just knowing that a woman is using her own body for its intended purpose. Even when no breast is exposed but a baby's head is cuddled against a mother's chest indicating that mother is breastfeeding it inspires self-righteousness in some. So much so that they feel compelled to express their ignorance about women, the use of breasts in this patriarchal culture and breastfeeding.

No blanket is needed to discreetly nurse a baby. Sounds like this woman had much experience with nursing as "no breast was exposed".

The analogy about people crapping and peeing in public serves only to demonstrate a severe lack of understanding and ignorance. A more apt analogy is the merchandising in the windows at Victoria's Secret in most any mall in the US.

If a woman wants to breastfeed her child, have the decency to look the other way and SHUT UP! Go on over to leer at the windows in Victoria's Secret if it will help you calm down.

[lindisfarne]

476. Shaking hands involves exposing body parts. A breast being used

to feed a child is about as natural as it gets, and frankly, even if her breast was exposed while feeding, who cares?? How many women get kicked off of airplanes because their blouse is too low cut? or because their nipple is visible through a white t-shirt?

[Bassic]

269. Plus, it does not matter how long the flight is,

if the kid is hungry, the kid is hungry. If I make my 6-month old son wait for more than 30 seconds, all Hell breaks loose.

[Timefortruth]

389. The child was almost two.

She could be told how to unclog her ears, or be given a drink from a cup or even gum.

That said, if a woman wants to nurse she should be allowed. She should ask herself what it is she gets out of these confrontations, since it is unnecessary at the child's age.

[Left Is Write]

403. I'm betting she wasn't expecting a confrontation.

I wouldn't have been.

[pnwmom]

421. Maybe she gets a sense of self-respect.

Maybe she decided to speak up for breastfeeding women everywhere. (Women with babies of all ages have been told to restrict nursing.)

Or maybe she just knew her toddler would object to nursing under a blanket (mine would have).

But suppose she decided to make a stand. Since when are DU'ers opposed to people standing up for what they believe in?

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

459. Who says it's unnecessary at 22 months?

Breastfeeding helps with brain development and strengthens the immune system of the child. The facts are that the longer a mother is able to breastfeed a baby the healthier that child is likely to be.

Of course, my story is only anecdotal evidence. But I nursed by daughter until she was 22 months old. She is the healthiest child I know. She is nearly 8 and has only been the the doctor one time for anything but well child visits. I'll never know for sure but I attribute her good health to my breastfeeding.

Perhaps what the woman gets out of these "confrontations" is the satisfaction that she is doing the best for her child.

Edit for grammar

[mondo joe]

475. It's not NECCESSARY at any age. When did neccessity become the defining

question?

[LeftyMom]

3. nursing on takeoff and landing keeps a kid from crying from ear pressure.

Anyhow, babies have to eat pretty frequently. If they're hungry now, you really can't tell them to wait patiently for half an hour, because they don't understand waiting and they're uncomfortable and hungry now.

[nodehopper]

259. that is so not the point

[Sequoia]

391. So....should the baby wait? Baby's are hungry every 15 minutes.

[Erika]

4. The baby was 22 months old, a toddler, not an infant

She could have handed the kid a stick of gum. I would say the mother has an issue with exhibition probably shared by the father. Can you imagine some of the physical and verbal demands the toddler was capable of making?

I don't blame the airlines at all.

[SheilaT]

6. So would you also refuse

a bottle to a 22 month old who still takes a bottle?

Your assumption that the mother "has an issue with exhibition" displays remarkable ignorance about the dynamics of nursing. As someone who nursed both of my sons until they were two years old, trust me, there's no exhibitionism involved. Just a desire to do what's best for the child.

It's the people who are somehow offended by a nursing pair that have the problem. I hope this woman sues the crap out of the airlines involved.

[MuseRider]

8. I am with you.

My boys both weaned themselves and if one of them had still wanted to nurse at 22 months they would have been allowed.

Exhibition? LOL, that is certainly a new one on me. I was never accused of anything like that and I nursed everywhere I went.

[av8rdave]

293. You have to remember, we live in a country where

One of our recent attorney generals actually used taxpayer money to cover a breast on a statue! Unfortunately, we still have a significant chunk of our population who live in perpetual denial about the facts of life - including such basics as how we feed and nurture our young.

According to these people, breasts are evil! Why can't we all just realize that?

[pnwmom]

302. But only female breasts.

Male breasts are just fine.

[av8rdave]

321. That's a good point

It would be interesting in a disgusting sort of way to have a conversation with Ashcroft and ask him where he draws the line. Are "man boobs" ok? Or is there a certain mass at which a breast becomes pornographic? Maybe it's body hair that makes it ok...

[MuseRider]

367. I can't quite pin this down.

I don't know if it is prudishness or elitism since breastfeeding when I was growing up was something only poor women did.

I still think that we are mostly getting tooled around by one of the posters who refuses to even consider what experienced moms are saying to her and continues with the same arguments even after they have been proven incorrect.

All this hoopla over a natural, nurturing and considerate gesture. Really, I breastfed wherever I had to but always wished to be in a quiet, personal space.

[Erika]

10. Your motives might be noble

But many toddlers are off the bottle by that age. I have observed many nursing mothers and they were very discreet. This woman was offered a blanket and refused it. I have not seen a toddler publicly nursing because of the obvious.

The airlines were 100% right.

[MuseRider]

12. It is not anyones business to determine

when a child should be weaned.

"Gillette said she was discreetly breast-feeding her 22-month-old daughter on Oct. 13 as their flight prepared to leave Burlington International Airport. She said she was seated by the window in the next-to-last row, her husband was seated between her and the aisle and no part of her breast was showing."

Perhaps she did not need that blanket because she had already taken care of it.

So all mothers that are nursing a child should be required to stay home and not fly? Why? Because some people can't handle the sight of the natural and best way to feed a child? Seems to me that is the problem of the other people not the nursing mother and child. They don't have to look if they are offended.

[Erika]

15. If it was so discreet, why the offer of the blanket?

Face it a 22 month old nursing cannot be done that discreetly.

[MuseRider]

19. Sorry

I am facing nothing. It is none of your business to determine if a mother can nurse her child no matter what age. Don't look at it, jeeze. Ohhhh Noooooo a BREAST! AND a child suckling! Heavens we are all going to die! That is how stupid this all sounds. It is natural so maybe you need to face it.

In my whole entire life having been a nursing mother who hung out with other nursing mothers I have never ever seen an entire breast or nipple exposed in public and I am a nosy sucker and look because I find nursing mothers and children to be just beautiful. Would you rather spend the flight with a screaming kid or one choking on gum?

Why can't people who don't like it just turn their heads? Easy and hassle free solution.

[Erika]

23. Good, volunteer to sit next to mothers nursing toddlers

How many teeth does a 22 month old have? Does that tell you anything about nature's thoughts on their nutrition needs?

I have zero problem with infants being discreetly nursed.
I have a big problem with a toddler nursing in a cramped airplane.

[MuseRider]

29. Ahhhh I get it now.

You have no problem with nursing. It is just that you have determined that a 22 month old does not need to be nursed so you should not have to deal with those that disagree. OK. Have fun sitting next to that screaming, squirming, hungry 22 month old. I am certain that will be much more to the liking of those on board. Somehow I figured nursing was something to be decided between mother and child. Silly me.

[Erika]

34. Can't you find some other time than a short flight? n/t

[MuseRider]

38. Should not have to.

It is a BREAST! Not a monster or a gob of goo coming out of a kids nose, now that is something I think should be stopped. It is natural, in many cultures for long after 2 years.

Can't you just not look? You can't avoid a screaming child but you can choose not to look at one of them nursing. Your choice apparently but I think you do not choose wisely.

[ThomCat]

399. You're making good, reasonable points.

But they're not getting through. :shrug:

Some people just like to be offended over nothing.

[greccogirl]

61. I nursed my babies

when they hungry, period. Nursing on flights is good for ear pressure.

[RaRa]

30. Don't even go there

Apparently you don't know that the immunities that a nursing mother passes to her newborn also occur again in full strength at around 2 years. That also happens to be the time when children start to get exposed to more children. Breastfeeding isn't just about nutrition. It's also about the emotional developement of the child. I guess kids just needs their veggies and the rest doesn't matter? God, I am so sick of the backward and sick mentality that people have about mammary glands. Oops, I guess I should have called them hooters.

[Erika]

33. I have nothing against breast feeding

Look how badly bottle fed babies have turned out, right?

I do have a problem with the lack of planning that necessitates breast feeding on a short flight.

[pnwmom]

82. You so obviously never breastfed a baby.

Planning has nothing to do with it. THEY choose when they nurse, not you. Yes, you can delay them -- but why would you do that on a plane of all places? Where a crying toddler would disturb other passengers far more than a nursing one?

[Marnieworld]

299. but nursing isn't the only option in this case

many mother pump breast milk in advance and a 22 month year old could be fed before the flight or be given solid food during it. It just has to be her way all the time which is very self-centered I think. Also doctors agree that beyond six months there is really no extra benefit to nursing at least nutritionally. In any case they were just asking for more discretion and not even stopping her at all.

[pnwmom]

307. Doctors agree to no such thing.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends breastfeeding for AT LEAST a full year, and after that for as long as the mother wishes. The World Health Organization and UNICEF both recommend nursing for at least TWO years, and the average weaning age around the world is 2.5 - 6 years, according to researchers. The immunological benefits don't end at 6 months; they continue as long as the child nurses.

A twenty-two month old who is not used to hiding under a blanket would probably be bothered by it. Nursing can be done very discretely with the bottom of the mother's shirt covering the top of the breast. The baby covers the rest.

[Marnieworld]

312. From an online medical encyclopedia

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002455.htm

By the age of 1, most children are off the bottle. If the child still uses a bottle, it should contain water only.

1 YEAR OF AGE

After a baby is 1-year old, whole milk (vitamin D or 4%) may replace breast milk or formula. Children under the age of 2 should not be given low-fat milk (2%, 1%, or skim) as they need the additional calories from fat to ensure proper growth and development.

Children under the age of 1 should not be given whole milk as it has been shown to cause low blood counts. Cheese, cottage cheese, and yogurt, however, may be given in small amounts.

*The 1-year old child should be getting much of their nutrition from meats, fruits and vegetables, breads and grains, and the dairy group, especially whole milk.*

Providing a variety of foods will help to ensure enough vitamins and minerals. Toddlers do not grow as rapidly as babies do, so their nutritional needs relative to their size decrease during the second year of life. Although they continue to gain weight, they no longer double their weight as infants do.



Of course mothers can breast-feed as long as they want. There are some that go to age 5 or older that I've heard of. My point is that it is not necessary nutrition-wise after year one. I realize that choosing to this has more to do with emotional bonding and comforting etc. My point was in response to all of the posts here that suggest that not breast-feeding would be denying this child food when clearly there are other options available.

[pnwmom]

320. You said age 6 months, now you're saying one year.

The point isn't that a 22 month old can't eat anything else. The point is that a nursing mother and toddler are entitled to nurse wherever and whenever and for whatever reasons they want.

That's the law in the State of Vermont, and it should be everywhere.

[Marnieworld]

326. well it says at six months they can start weaning

My bad, not memorizing these things for these types of conversations. No one told her she couldn't breastfeed so therefore no law was broken. She objected to what they considered was discretion. That's where the difference of opinion. And I wasn't responding to posts about what her choice was or whether she had the right to choose it legally or otherwise. I was responding to all of the posts that implied that by not breastfeeding the child had no other option for their hunger.

Edited to add comment and correct a statement that was wrong.

[pnwmom]

327. "Start weaning" means to begin adding bits of solid to the diet.

[Marnieworld]

336. I am aware of this

That's just where I got the 6 months number from. Jeez.

[Lars39]

390. Not every child will switch between its mother's nipple and a bottle's.

Nursing also helps with ear pressure...helps keep the child's ears from hurting.

[Midlodemocrat]

295. Right. Because you know for a fact that the plane was on time and everything

and that these folks weren't stuck in traffic.

:eyes:

[Dora]

300. It's not about a lack of planning.

It's about comfort, health, and convenience. It's about prioritizing the needs of our children over the wants of puritanical, squeamish, and ignorant strangers.

It's not a hard decision to make.

[pnwmom]

62. Why? Are you afraid the baby will turn around and bite you?

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that ALL babies be nursed well past the age of teeth -- until at least the age of 1, and after that as long as the mother and child want to.

It also recommends that solid foods BEGIN around the same time that teeth come in. But that doesn't mean the end of nursing. How many babies do you know that take neither bottle nor breast after 6 months of age?

[mondo joe]

291. I would volunteer, and I wouldn't care.

What does a cramped airplane have to do with it? Does a mother nursing make every one else's seat smaller?

[pnwmom]

309. Hah! Apparently it must!

[Dora]

298. And in this case, Dad was sitting next to the nursing toddler.

It was nobody else's business. The only people with a view on the nursing would be those standing in the aisle - the flight attendants. It's the flight attendant's responsibility to ensure the safety and comfort of passengers, not deny the comfort of nursing to a child not even two years old yet.

IIRC, the APA, by the way, does endorse nursing until two if possible.

And I'm speaking as mother who has a 21 month old toddler who nurses occasionally.

[greccogirl]

59. Me either. No one ever saw my breast either - in fact,

less of my breast was showing that in most super models skimpy bathing suits. Isn't it amazing that breasts as sex objects are just fine but as nourishment people can't take it............

[pnwmom]

69. Yes. And that men's pumped up pecs are fine for public display

but let a woman's nipple show for a second and all hell might break loose.

[greccogirl]

416. Utterly unbelievable.

[okoboji]

250. "Why can't people who don't like it........

....just turn their heads? Easy and hassle free solution."


because it's the same mentality with people who have issues with certain TV programing ... instead of just changing the channel to avoid the program that is offensive, those people find it necessary to crusade to protect the rest of civilization from the program that they deem offensive. Erika and the flight attendant are just trying to protect mankind from 22 year old toddlers from sucking on breasts. This is her crusade. Personally, I think there are far greater issues out there in this world that needs way more attention and resolve then mothers breast feeding in public.

[pnwmom]

44. I always held my baby or toddler's hand while nursing

because otherwise it distracted me. There is nothing about nursing itself that is any different with a toddler than a younger baby. At almost any age a baby can suddenly "pop off" and smile up at you.

So, for a second, you've done a Janet Jackson. You jerk your shirt back down over your nipple. Big deal.

[MuseRider]

45. Ahhhhh

Those are the most precious smiles in the world aren't they? My best memories include those smiles.

[pnwmom]

65. They are.

I can't believe some of the ignorance and intolerance around here, though.

They must not have gotten enough of those smiles.



:hi:

[MuseRider]

71. Again, ahhhhhh.

Seriously, I would have walked through fire for those smiles.

I don't get it either. It seems odd to feel threatened or grossed out by this. :hi:

[Kelvin Mace]

77. Because some people are so prudish

the mere thought of a breast has them breaking out in hives.

[MuseRider]

79. Unless they go to Hooters

or a strip club. When it is all about exciting them it is OK. :shrug:

[Kelvin Mace]

83. Agreed.

(Though I am proud to say I have never been to a strip club, and only to Hooters once when it was the only place serving food near my hotel. The food was terrible).

[MuseRider]

89. !

I have been to a strip club, many years ago when I was but a young woman, before I was liberated! Never been to Hooters though. I keep hearing how wonderful their food is but I think it could be really awful and nobody would notice.

[Kelvin Mace]

99. My wife said I was probably the first man to pay attention

to the food.

[MuseRider]

121. I'll bet she was correct. n/t

[martymar64]

445. Hooters is nothing in terms of sex, and the food is tasty

Anybody who goes to Hooters just to look at the waitresses must be awfully deprived. They're usually cute, sure, but the titillation factor is fairly low, nothing like a strip joint. I like their hotwings, better than many places.

[Name removed]

464. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

468. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

462. I'll consider going to Hooters

When someone opens a restaurant and calls it Balls!

[Eurobabe]

215. My kids weaned themselves at 10 mos. but you are right

NO ONE has the right to tell ANYONE at what age they should wean their child. Get out of my uterus, and hands off of my body!

Maybe the child had medical reasons for nursing at 22 mos. how does anyone know? And who has the audacity to pass judgment on this woman? It's just the US and their 'titty' phobias.

Thank GOD I live overseas.

[MuseRider]

241. We are a very odd lot

when it comes to women's bodies. Just a few steps above the Taliban in many cases (not this one yet, wait until they begin arresting us for nursing). I just can't understand why we can use our boobs for whatever men want but we can't use them for what they were intended for without a great deal of fussing and worry.

[pnwmom]

42. The airline will lose the lawsuit. You'll see.

You haven't seen a toddler nursing because it's relatively rare. Most toddlers don't nurse, and those who do nurse less often than infants.

But come to Seattle if you want to find one. Few around here would criticize that mother.

[KitSileya]

392. I certainly hope they will lose.

You haven't seen a toddler nursing because it's relatively rare.
Unfortunately, this has been the case for too long in the industrial world. Ever since men forced themselves into the business of giving birth, everything connected to birthing and breastfeeding has been one long struggle to make it as unnatural as possible so that men could control those things instead of the women doing them. Where breast feeding is concerned, male doctors were quick to endorse and force mothers to use formula at the instigation and incentive of the companies that produce it. In fact, one of their larger crusades in the last decade is to get Western health care programs in the Third World to convince women that formula is better than breastmilk. They do this because they've lost a large part of their customer base in the industrialized world as most civilized countries (with the exception of the US, apparently) now very clearly encourage mothers to breastfeed if at all possible.

The result is babies dying in Africa. Overwrought, you claim? The pushing of formula in Africa, where they don't know enough about germs to sterilize bottles and the water, where most people have no access to clean water, and where the women can't read the instructions so that they prepare the formula safely, causes many babies in these countries to get diarrhea and die. In fact, concerning those instructions on the packages - there has been instances where these companies, Nestlé among them - who have sold formula boxes with incorrect instructions in Africa because they had to withdraw them from the market in first world countries. If the formula is mixed too strongly, it can be fatal.

Breastmilk has no such obvious dangers, it's easy to provide, there's no need for bottles, nor for sterilizing equipment, nor for heating sources. In addition, it is much, much, much better for the child. As has been pointed out upthread, in most parts of the world, it is natural that children breastfeed much longer than in the West. This is partly because it's only been in the last decades there's been a renaissance for breastfeeding, and moms still get those disgusting reactions as we see upthread when children above a certain age (non-infants, or at best babies) breastfeed. Apparently, many people are sick enough to think that toddlers breastfeeding is wrong. I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me can tie that to Sigmund Fraud.

Please understand, pwnmom, I'm not ranting at you - you just had an excellent remark that I used as jumping off point :) I don't have children, so I haven't breastfed, nor was I breastfed myself - surprise twins 5 weeks early made it difficult for my mom to breastfeed 31 years ago, since we were in incubators. We did get breastmilk in a bottle while in hospital, which meant 2 months for me due to complications after birth, thanks to my mom's hospital roommate who had plenty of milk and expressed it and brought it to the hospital just for "the twins".

[pnwmom]

428. Lots of good info here, Kit. A great antidote

to some of the nonsense.

I suspect you're right about the Freudian aspect. It's almost as if some people view this as some sort of public mutual masturbation. How weird.

[KitSileya]

438. Yes, that's an aspect with American culture I cannot understand.

As don't most Europeans, I suspect. I remember an acquaintance telling me about an incident that happened while she spent a year as an au pair. She'd brought the kids she looked after to the beach, and had let the toddler, (who was closer to three than two, so he was in the process of being potty trained,) play in the sand by the blanket without his diaper, and she'd ended up escorted off the beach even tho' she offered to put on the diaper when the lifeguards objected. For most of us Europeans, that kind of reaction is not only over the top, it's actually kind of sick. The sexualization of small children and natural processes such as breastfeeding is sick. As is the reactions of some of the posters on this thread. It's obvious they have a very psychologically troubled attitude towards bodies and natural functions. That they are offended by something they would have to seek out deliberately (for example, they would have had to either crane their necks backwards, or semi-stood to get a view of the breastfeeding) is a typical puritan reaction.

[martymar64]

447. The consequences of a nation founded by religious fanatics

n/t

[greccogirl]

58. If she was in her seat and her husband between

her and the aisle it was not the airlines BUSINESS to offer her a blanket. They should mind their own business.

[pnwmom]

204. Did you know that McDonalds and IKEA won the "Booby prize"?

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=YT128591P&news_headline=mcdonalds_forced_mums_to_breastfeed_in_loos

Fast food chain McDonald's has been named shamed for forcing new mums to breastfeed in the toilets.

Ronald McDonald was left red-faced after the firm was awarded the 'Booby Prize' by the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) after many mums complained they were told to stop feeding their children or to use a toilet cubicle.

Ikea came out top among the 211 mums who nominated the 'breast' and worst companies for breastfeeding.

The Scandinavian furniture store won the Booby Award for outstanding service to breastfeeding mums. It offers private partitions with comfortable chairs in its cafes, as well as welcoming the practice throughout the store.

[MuseRider]

243. WOW great for IKEA!

I love it. Look at the difference between the two. Amazing.

[Patiod]

253. I noticed a separate "nursery" room in LAX last week

Had a changing table and a few comfortable chairs which looked just right for nursing. What a great idea instead of going into a busy bathroom.

[pnwmom]

311. Comfortable chairs? What will they think of next?

[pnwmom]

41. Me, too, SheilaT.

That mother was doing all the other passengers a favor by keeping her child quiet and calm. What an ignorant flight attendant.

[greccogirl]

57. Ditto! I nursed mine way past two, especially my premie.

What is it with people and breasts? She was covered UP, no one could see her. It always amazes me the same people that say "well Janet Jackson's thing was just a breast" will say "women are exhibitionists" for nursing. Guess if those boobies aren't encased in a tight tee shirt in hooters they just aren't acceptable!!

[pnwmom]

70. And how come men's but not women's nipples can be displayed?

[greccogirl]

419. Because people in this

country are backwards when it comes to a woman's body and the role it plays in nourishing a baby.

[EFerrari]

7. If no part of her breast was showing, how is that exhibitionism?

:wtf:

[Kelvin Mace]

86. Apparently just the thought of a breast

causes some people to get the heebie jeebies.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

106. Then the flight attendant should have thrown the blanket over her own head.

eom

[MuseRider]

129. Best answer yet!

Thanks for the giggle. :hi:

[MissMillie]

255. agreed

:applause:

[EFerrari]

148. We could use a blanket for this thread. lol

[tigereye]

440. yes!

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

154. Do these people know that we're all naked under our clothes?

:rofl:

[MuseRider]

155. Not me.

How dare you suggest that? LOL

[Kelvin Mace]

469. Shhhh....

You'll make their pin-sized heads explode.

[Berry Cool]

9. Why on earth would exhibition have to be an issue here?

Why is it such a big deal, especially if you can't even really see what's going on?

And do you REALLY want to give a toddler a stick of gum?

I guess I just don't understand why some people assume that any woman who wants to be able to breastfeed in public is an exhibitionist, and that any husband who defends her right to do so is trying to show her off. :shrug:

[Erika]

13. The age, simply put.

Yes, gum can be given. A 22 month old is a bit much, especially on a short flight.

Our local McDonalds had an issue with this. Should a woman just bare her breast and feed away with spit up, etc? The restaurant won.

The airlines offered an alternative.

[pnwmom]

32. What does the age have to do with it?

[Kelvin Mace]

90. What that kid put in its mouth

was far healthier than what McDonalds sells.

Imagine that, a child getting healthy nourishment in a McDonalds.

Shocking.

[MuseRider]

96. Now THAT is truth. n/t

[Dora]

330. 22 months is "a bit much" of what?

Your argument is empty.

[meganmonkey]

394. I'd love to see a link to back up the claim that the restaurant won

:shrug:

[Left Is Write]

402. Why? Why is 22 months old "a bit much"?

Length of flight makes no difference if she was nursing due to the change in air pressure.

I believe I am in your local area - which McDonald's had an issue?

Why does breastfeeding equate to "baring a breast"?

[imaginary girl]

11. A stick of gum for a 2 year old?

I wonder how many parents would agree that's a good idea. Or pediatricians ...

[MuseRider]

14. Not this one. n/t

[Warpy]

17. A stick of gum to a 22 month old?

Better practice that pediatric Heimlich maneuver.

[Scairp]

24. A stick of gum?!

Are you nuts? You NEVER give small children gum. They will choke to death. The mom had the legal and moral right to nurse her baby, and anyone who didn't like it was free to avert their gaze.

[pnwmom]

40. UNICEF and the World Health Organization both recommend

breastfeeding until at least the age of 2. The Canadian Academy of Pediatrics also recommends this, and the American Academy supports nursing as long as the mother and child want to.

No, I can't imagine the demands the toddler was capable of making; not with a nipple in his or her mouth.

[susanna]

49. I'm honestly curious...

...as my sister couldn't breastfeed. She has cataplexy/narcolepsy and requires lots of meds, some of them legal narcotics. Her pregnancy was horrific for her; she had no control over her body. (Look up cataplexy/narcolepsy - it's awful.)

My nephew only bottle fed until he was about 1-1/4 or so, then went on straight food by his own preference. He seems very well-adjusted, but I do wonder about bonding. If the child indicates a preference for solid food early, is that okay? I honestly am wondering.

[MuseRider]

54. You can bond in many ways.

It is a lovely way to bond but there are so many ways.

I am a narcoleptic but my cataplexy is very mild. I was allowed to stay on my drugs thankfully. Your poor sister, that must have been difficult.

[susanna]

97. It was...

...some of her doctors were very unhelpful, actually. They gave her no information at all about the toxicity of the drugs she was taking. They told her if she was worried at all, that she should terminate, since they "couldn't say one way or another."

In the end, because of a lack of solid information, she chose to maintain the pregnancy and also eliminate the drugs while pregnant. It cost her dearly - most folks have no idea. The good news? She adores her son and they do have a good bond, that much I see. I guess I just wonder what she missed...we all hear so many things about "you must," and "you should," that it gets confusing, especially for women who do not have textbook, "happy" pregnancies because of other conditions.

So thanks, MuseRider. You ease my mind a great deal.

[MuseRider]

127. They will be fine.

Poor thing. She should have had much better care. It can be such a lovely time being pregnant and to think that she was treated like that makes me very sad. She did what most of us probably would have done in that situation. I am certain it cost her dearly but she did that for her child. She sounds like a remarkable woman. Whatever she missed she will find in other ways.

[barb162]

185. I know women who never breastfed and their kids, now adults,

are fine.

[bemildred]

63. It's not either or, you do both.

We got them on solid food early, but also breast fed rather late. The bottle and early weaning are better than an unhappy or stressed out mother, but if you can make it work, it does have advantages. But they are not obvious, and it doesn't mean kids don't come out OK either way. And the kids preferences should be respected. I'm not sure I can visualize forced breast feeding anyway.

[pnwmom]

78. Your last sentence made me laugh.

I can visualize it, though -- and it involved PAIN!

[susanna]

Thanks, bemildred.

My nephew just LOVED solid food. The minute he got it, the bottle was just, well, gone. My nephew is truly very well-adjusted and laid back. My sis had so much difficulty during her pregnancy and early motherhood that I really do hope that everything's okay. I suppose it is, but I have no kids, so it's weird for me; I'm just not sure. I'm glad folks who have been there can help me understand. So thank you! :-)

[bemildred]

258. Well, I hope she does OK.

Sometimes it is very difficult. She shouldn't beat herself up over it. I'm a guy, so it's weird for me too, but I have learned by observation. One of mine had a lot of food problems too, we had to jump through hoops to keep him healthy and nourished, but he is a fine young man now.

Edit: I should take that back, it doesn't sound like he has food problems. I'm just saying I know how much trouble it can be to figure out what is right to do. :-)

[pnwmom]

76. Susanna, it's perfectly okay.

I had three children and they all took solid food and they all weaned at different ages. And my husband and I are equally bonded with all of them.

As for bottle feeding, pediatricians recommend switching from a bottle to a cup at about the age of a year, mostly to protect their teeth. (Falling asleep with cows milk or formula in the mouth can lead to cavities.)

Nursing is generally preferable, but your sister did the best she could with a nightmare situation. I hope she's doing better now.

[susanna]

107. She's okay, but she shares with me her fears...

...that she was somehow incompetent because of her situation. I have moved heaven and earth to tell her that she did what she could, and that HAS to be enough, but she still worries. I know that.

Thanks for your input. I do appreciate it. :-)

[pnwmom]

159. That's one of the hardest things about being a parent.

You love them so much, and you feel so responsible for EVERYTHING. But I think that's one of the lessons we all need to learn -- it's just not possible to control everything, as much as we might wish to. And the older they grow, the LESS we should be trying to control.

That child is loved. I'm sure they'll be fine.

[JerseygirlCT]

374. Lots of ways to bond. I wouldn't worry about it at all

I'm sure they have lots of time to cuddle and just be together, yes? It's not all about feeding, don't worry.

[greccogirl]

55. You don't know much about

breastfeeding do you? It is not at ALL unusual to breastfeed a toddler.

[Gin]

227. I agree...the age of 22 months is the defining bit of information...

....she has no case IMO

[pnwmom]

229. That's not what the law says.

And did you know that around the world the average age of weaning is between 2.5 and 6?

[KittyWampus]

257. Around the world the average age of weaning is that high cause of poverty

I fully support any mom's decision to nurse a toddler.

And will keep still with some of my thoughts on the discussion cause they're not relevant to other people making decisions.

But there should be honesty in the discussion.

Edit- I'm a female who has a friend currently feeding her 2 year old.

[pnwmom]

314. Our age of weaning is that low

because of materialism and because of attitudes like many express here.

[FlaGranny]

246. A stick of GUM?????

I hope you don't have any kids. You do not give a small child a stick of gum. You don't give them small beads either, by the way.

[nodehopper]

261. well

a) it is her legal right to nurse in public

b) are you the authority on how late children should be breastfed? many mothers subscribe to the philosophy that the babies should ween themselves (and yes, they do wean themselves, they don't keep on "nursing forever"

c) she was seated in a back row, with her husband between her and the aisle, and her breasts weren't on display. how is this an exhibitionism issue? What

d) see A, again. would you not blame the airline if they did something else ILLEGAL?

[Marnieworld]

296. Thank you

I was waiting for someone to point this out. I think the sight of such a large child feeding is what they wanted to have her cover up. If the kid was hungry he/she could have had solid food. It wasn't an infant but someone capable of chewing and asking for food. On a 20 minute flight with a near 2 year old, this seems way more than what is necessary.

No one stopped her from breastfeeding they just asked for more discretion. She clearly had a chip on her shoulder about it and now has filed this frivolous claim.

[Dora]

308. Nursing eases inner ear pressure. It's a blessing for EVERYONE.

Nursing on a plane isn't about feeding a hungry child. The act of nursing provides a blessed relief to the inner ear pain that these young ones get while flying. This is the reason that so many mothers choose to nurse their babies and toddlers while a plane is taking off and landing.

The inner ear pain is age related. You don't see four and five year olds screaming while a plane is taking off and landing because they're physically bigger - their eustachain tubes drain and clear more easily. In younger children their tubes don't drain easily, and this is what causes them so much pain while flying.

Really, anyone who is bothered by an infant or toddler nursing on a plane should be thanking their lucky stars that the child isn't screaming in agony instead.

[gollygee]

325. I have flown with a nursing toddler

and you are just plain wrong. The pressure hurts their ears and they want to NURSE. And if they don't nurse, they SCREAM.

And a toddler isn't going to sit with a blanket over their heads like that.

[gollygee]

324. 22-month-olds aren't supposed to have GUM !!

that's a serious choking threat.

For fuck's sake. My God. Nursing is so disgusting that you'd give them something they could choke on.

[msanthrope]

350. Obviously, you have no children---you don't hand a 22

month old a stick of gum. Dumb.

[DixieBlue]

360. What? There are a lot of kids who are still breastfeeding at

that age. And it's not just for nourishment, but for comfort as well. Who are we to deny a child what he/she needs? All because people are scared of a little nip slip? That is an absolutely ridiculous argument ...

"I would say the mother has an issue with exhibition probably shared by the father." -- You say that about a woman who was breastfeeding? With her husband blocking the aisle? C'mon all ready.

[JerseygirlCT]

373. I think you really don't understand breastfeeding at all

The thought that someone would do it for some sort of exhibitionist kicks is so out there...

She's feeding her child, and helping with take-off and landing ear problems. She's also entirely within her rights to choose to do what SHE feels is best for her child. I know I sure wouldn't be handing a 22 mo kid chewing gum!

I don't understand why this freaks people out so.

[Left Is Write]

401. A stick of gum? For a child not quite two yet?

I would consider that a major choking hazard.

What does the child's verbal capability have to do with it? How are you reaching the conclusion of "issue with exhibition"? I nursed two children well into toddlerhood, and I nursed them in public without ever showing off, "exhibiting" anything, or anything else untoward.

[Nozebro]

5. Interesting that most mothers prefer to be referred to as "mom", not mother

I think one of the less-obvious reasons is that "mother" implies doing things for others, whereas "mom" makes a mother seem more like SHE is one that should be on the receiving end, or at least that she shouldn't ONLY have to be perceived as the "giver".

[silverweb]

125. Huh?

Where's that coming from?

[NOLADEM]

16. C'mon Lady, can't you wait???...Flying sucks enough already

:hide:

But seriously, the flight is 20 minutes, right? The seat I sit in is so close to the person next to me, I touch with people on both sides the whole flight. Are you really gonna sue so you can sit with your child against me as you breast feed as YOUR inalienable right? No way, sister. That's what a breast pump is for.

Spare us, PLEASE.

Oh, and I am starting passenger rail if they allow cell phones on planes.

[pnwmom]

47. Come on, can't you read?

The woman's husband was sitting right next to her and he was sitting at the aisle. So the nearest person was separated from this horrible experience by another person and a whole aisle.

Give me a break. How squeamish can you get.

[Crim_n al]

210. So flying sucks if baby sucks?

Let's hope the kid stays awake then.

because if baby crashes ...

[MuseRider]

244. !!

:spray: There went my coffee, all over my keyboard! HaHa, very nice.

[MissMillie]

303. her husband was sitting next to her on one side

and the window was on the other

[JerseygirlCT]

375. The father was sitting next to them, and no one else

So no one else was being disturbed by a wiggly kid.

And would you really have preferred a screaming baby as her tiny ears popped and gave her a great deal of pain?

Beyond the fact that the mother is perfectly within her rights, I'd take a happy, quiet, nursing baby anytime over a miserable, pained, screaming one.

[bemildred]

18. Does she have a right to nurse her child, or is it a privilege?

That's the question.

[MuseRider]

20. Or a necessity? n/t

[Erika]

21. It is the timing and planning

The child was a toddler not an infant. There was no imminent need to accomodate the child for such a short flight. Just plain old common sense and courtesy to fellow passengers.

[bemildred]

22. So it's a privilege, not her prerogative to decide when to feed her child. nt

[Erika]

25. Was the nursing done for hunger or ear pressure?

It seems to be going back and forth here. Again, a 22 month toddler doesn't rely on breast milk for its life. Gum can be removed after take off.

[bemildred]

26. Who decides? The mother or gum chewers? nt

[Erika]

28. The airlines in this case

I agree 100%.

[pnwmom]

122. The state of Vermont decides, since the airplane was parked there.

[GTS]

68. You either haven't had children or you have been very lucky

Or you maybe you enjoy the sign of toddlers choking to death. I would think that giving gum to a two year is not mterially different than throwing them off a cliff. They may survive it but I would not count on it.

[pnwmom]

124. Welcome to DU, GTS!

We need every voice of reason we can get.

[pnwmom]

87. Doesn't matter why, according to the State of Vermont,

whose enlightened laws protect the right of women to breastfeed toddlers as well as babies.

It's none of our concern why that woman chose to breastfeed at that particular moment.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Toad]

233. Before or after the child chokes?

# Keep the following foods from children until 4 years of age:

* Hot dogs
* Nuts and seeds
* Chunks of meat or cheese
* Whole grapes
* Hard, gooey, or sticky candy
* Popcorn
* Chunks of peanut butter
* Raw vegetables
* Raisins
* Chewing gum

http://www.aap.org/pubed/ZZZSEN9YA7C.htm?&sub_cat=1

[mondo joe]

280. Doesn't really matter at all. For whatever reason, she decided to nurse her

kid, which is is her call.

[gollygee]

328. Gum is dangerous for even a minute

22-month-olds are still at great danger for choking.

Have you ever taken a toddler on a flight? There is a constant fear that the kid is going ot have a tantrum or start screaming or something and piss everyone off. When my daughter (who was 23 or 24 months and still nursing) and I flew, I nursed her on the plain just to keep her quiet. It didn't occur to me that people would be bothered by me nursing - we sat like this couple did, with me by the window and my husband on the aisle blocking the view. I was very very worried that she'd be noisy. Nursing keeps the kid's mouth busy so the other passengers don't have to listen to crying.

[MuseRider]

348. To add to that

when mom is nervous for whatever reason a child that age will sense it and get upset themselves. I can't believe what I have been reading here. Next the will be making us stay inside because the sight of a pregnant woman will make people think of sex! ACK!

[miss_american_pie]

337. Taking gum away from a toddler?

Oh wait, that's taking candy from a baby....

Because the caterwauling that would cause wouldn't distract nearby passengers in the least. :eyes:

[Scairp]

27. So what?

Have you seen how females in the country are clothing themselves? It is highly offensive to me to see a fatso wearing clothes 2 sizes too small, but do I have the right to force her to cover up? Unfortunately, no. If you or anyone else finds a nursing breast offensive, tough.

[Erika]

31. I find the lack of manners offensive

Cramped airplanes aren't the place for such physical activity. We're talking about a toddler not an infant.

[bemildred]

35. You think kicking a mother and her child off a plane is good manners?

You think that shows sensitivity and politeness?

[Scairp]

36. Either you have no children

Or you're one of those mothers who is so offended by the thought of feeding your offspring from your own body that you would never consider doing something so dirty yourself. Did a breast frighten you as a child?

[Erika]

80. Excuse me? Do you have a projection problem?

I do believe in privacy and good manners.

[MuseRider]

94. Since when did feeding your child

naturally become bad manners? My goodness, I simply can't believe this. How about having the good manners to look away? She was not in a position for anyone other than the stewardess to see her anyway.

[Erika]

101. The child was 22 months old, it wasn't an infant!

If I pay for a flight ticket I shouldn't have to look away.

The child could have been fed in a tippy cup. Or fed prior to the short flight.

[MuseRider]

112. You keep saying that and it does not

make any difference if the child was 22 months or 2 months. When a child is hungry they need to eat, you can't force them to do it before, you can't force them to wait and why in the hell would a breast fed kid know how to even use a sippy cup?

It makes no difference how old the child was except, I guess, to you. Have you ever had a 2 year old? If they ate on command I would be really surprised.

[pnwmom]

128. Nursing is about comforting, as much as feeding.

And you would have had to crane your neck in order to see past the aisle and the husband.

[Homer Wells]

442. Reminds me of the story

about the old lady who called the police because the man across the way was parading in the nude and she could see him through the open window.

When the police got there, they looked out the window and saw nothing but an empty room.
After mentioning this to the complainer, she insisted that he was doing this shocking thing even while they spoke.

When asked how she could prove this, she said,

"Just climb up on this dresser, grab this curtain rod, and lean way back over this way, and you cant miss him!"

:rofl:

[last1standing]

158. You don't have to look away.

You have the right to look right at her and get every glimpse of nipple you can catch. The mother has the right to nurse her child and to ignore your voyeurism or to cover up. See how it all works in this country? We have rights that allow us basic freedoms like the exercise of natural feeding methods and the ability to stare at whomever we like.

Personally, I'd turn my head to the front of the plane and give the mother a little privacy, but then I don't get excited staring at children breastfeeding. To each his/her own, I suppose.

[gollygee]

331. Have you ever even flown?

My trip to Australia with my nursing todder went as follows:

40-minute flight
3-hour layover
4-hour flight
6-hour layover
14-hour flight

This mom could have had flight after flight. It might not have been just htat 20 minutes. Also, it's the taking off and landing where hte kid wants to nurse. It doesn't matter how long they have to wait if they're screaming and tantruming. Would you rather have a toddler in a fit on the plane with you, or a quiet nursing toddler?

[greccogirl]

420. Where in the world

is it written that YOU have the right to decide what another person's child should eat or drink?
Why would you have to "look away"? The woman's breast wasn't showing! The problem is yours, not hers.

[pnwmom]

102. Good manners? I would infinitely prefer to sit adjoining

a happily nursing toddler than a screeching toddler with ear pain.

I appreciate the efforts of parents to calm their children on flights no matter how they do this.

[Erika]

111. Give them a stick of gum and a coloring book

Works wonder on take off.

[MuseRider]

119. OK, I think you are tooling us around.

How many times does it need to be explained to you that giving a 22 month old a stick of gum is dangerous? How many times does it need to be explained to you that when a 22 month old is hungry they need to be fed? A coloring book?

You have to be tooling us around. Look how many experienced mothers are trying to explain this to you and you have related no experience yourself and you are not listening.

[nodehopper]

262. you are not supposed to give gum to children under 4

to all the "englihgtened people" who keep talking about gum on this thread.

[Cass]

288. You obviously have no children. You cannot give a 22 month old a stick of gum because they would

most likely choke on it.

[Solon]

443. Yeah, if you were into infanticide, or is it toddlercide?

You decide.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

465. I'd prefer to sit next to a nursing toddler

Than a clueless, judgmental, breast-phobic ignoramus or a Republican.

[kestrel91316]

120. Feeding a child = bad manners??? On what planet??

[TommyO]

256. If that's the case

then why aren't you willing to give a breast-feeding mother her privacy?

[Occulus]

477. "It's none of your fucking business where, when, or how I fucking eat

and good manners dictate you allow me to do so, you ignorant shit"

-the toddler in question

[BklnDem75]

37. Does Delta have a policy on breastfeeding?

If they don't, that would make them wrong. It's not up to you nor the flight attendants to determine the right age to stop.

[pnwmom]

92. The nearest person was separated by an aisle and the husband

from the nursing couple, who were next to the window. Anyone else on the plane would have had to make an effort to see what was going on.

[Kelvin Mace]

93. I find prudishness offensive

but I learn to live with it.

[pnwmom]

104. Lol! n/t

[Erika]

116. I find a lack of manners offensive

especially when I've paid the same ticket price.

[pnwmom]

131. The mother was discreet. The flight attendant was rude.

And broke the law.

And I hope Delta has to pay. But I'm sure they'll settle. This is one they won't take to court. Their insurance company won't let them.

[Kelvin Mace]

137. Sorry, breast feeding a kid is not showing a lack of manners.

[Arugula Latte]

285. Erika, I hope you don't have children. nt

[Midlodemocrat]

290. Lack of manners? For feeding her child.

Wow. Just wow.

[KitSileya]

395. I was going to say that I'd rather sit next to a mother nursing her toddler

than next to someone who refuses to listen, refuses to acknowledge that giving a 22-month old a stick of gum is dangerous, and who think breastfeeding is bad manners....

[harpboy_ak]

213. You are the one lacking manners

As was the flight attendant, who should have simply minded her own business. If it was because another passenger complained, that passenger should have minded her/his own business.

It is not ill-mannered to feed a child, especially if it was done as discretely as depicted in the news report. It is ill mannered to object to it, since parents and children have the same right to travel as you do.

So get over it. Under both common sense and apparently, Vermont law, she had every right to feed her child, and the airline was wrong. Besides, your very obvious ignorance about babies means you have no credibility on this issue.

[mondo joe]

277. I don't see the manners issue in feeding a toddler. What is it??

[pnwmom]

50. The passengers were all probably much more comfortable

not having to listen to one more toddler's screams of pain on descent.

[Erika]

110. I've never heard that

Once. Going to extremes?

[pnwmom]

133. You've never heard a screaming toddler on a plane?

Once?

I don't believe it. Either that, or you rarely fly.

Heck, there's been times my sinuses made ME want to scream.

[MuseRider]

135. But some always

notice a bare boob on the plane. :shrug:

[pnwmom]

160. LOL!

And think what we've been missing, always politely looking away.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

467. Orlando International is my home airport

There's a screaming child on nearly every flight. It's heartbreaking as they really are in discomfort. I think we can call it a given that people would prefer not to listen to a screaming child on a flight.

[greccogirl]

67. What in the world does

courtesy have to do with it? Her breast was NOT exposed and no one was beside her except her husband. If you are that squicky about breasts or anyone else they might have a problem having nothing to do with nursing..............

[kestrel91316]

115. Since when is breastfeeding a child discourteous to ANYONE?

And since when is it not common sense???

[miss_american_pie]

292. Since breasts are dirty things made only for sex

:sarcasm:

[Midlodemocrat]

297. Some frequent fliers, this one included, think it is common courtesy to

allow a mom to feed her child anywhere she chooses. But, hey, that's just me.

[pnwmom]

48. Is feeding your child a privilege?

It's not only a legal right, it's an obligation.

[bemildred]

51. Right, that's what it is, a duty and an obligation.

Not a priviledge granted at the whim of an airline.

[BklnDem75]

52. Oh I certainly know that.

I merely mentioned no policy for those who thought Delta had a legal right.

[pnwmom]

118. Welcome to DU, BklnDem75!

[BklnDem75]

126. Thanks!

I'm not really so outspoken, but this situation has me seeing red.

[pnwmom]

134. Good practice for you then.

Gets you involved right away!

[JerseygirlCT]

376. I know we've had to deal with Republican rule for a while, but

so far as I know, feeding ones child is still a right, not a privilege.

[truthisfreedom]

39. unless someone complained, i don't get the problem.

as far as i can tell, nobody could even see her. if it's disruptive behavior we're talking about, this makes sense, but when nobody's complaining, i think the flight attendent is doing more harm than good... and my guess is that the mother will win financial compensation in any case regarding this matter.

[kitty1]

43. why would this woman prefer being kicked off an airplane to...

accepting a blanket to cover up.
If most of her breast was covered, and there was nothing really to see, then I think the airline definitely went overboard ono this and should have let her be. However, If her breast was fully exposed for everyone to see, then I feel the attendant was right to offer her the blanket.
Not everyone is comfortable looking at that, and bf in public should be discreet imo.
This was not some small newborn either. Her daughter was almost 2 years old.
I breast fed my own 2 sons when they were infants, but I would always cover up with a blanket if I was around other people such as parents or inlaws. I feel it's a private time between you and your child.

[BklnDem75]

46. It's not hard to assume one is breastfeeding...

no matter how well a mother may cover herself up. It was a stupid move on the attendant/airline's part.

[pnwmom]

56. The article says she wasn't exposed.

Also, that Vermont State law protects the right of women to breast-feed in public.

[Erika]

64. A 22 month old can pretty well cover up a breast

Many people think tthis should be a personal and provate thing. The gal who stripped off her blouse here at the McDonalds to nurse lost her case. Like it or not, the breast is the serving plate of a toddler. They are messy. C'mon this should be a private function.

[pnwmom]

136. Right. The toddler covers up the breast. So what's the problem?

I'd like to see the article about the woman stripping off her blouse at McDonald's. That never made the papers around here.

[Erika]

141. 22 month olds can do otherwise. It's not like it was an infant!

I'll see if I can find the McDonalds case in the next few days.

[pnwmom]

176. I am curious about that one.

I can't imagine why you'd actually take off your shirt to nurse.

[mondo joe]

281. I didn't realize feeding kids was now allowed only to save their lives.

[Ms. Toad]

236. Bottle feeding is messy

Since bottle nipples are very unlike the one moms are born with, and there is not a good match between the bottle nipple and the child's mouth. Breast feeding rarely is.

[Erika]

60. Private time yes

Done before or after the flight. It was a short flight.

[BklnDem75]

66. Are you reading this somewhere or is this just your opinion?

If it disgusts you to see a mother breastfeed in public, you can always look away. It doesn't make what Delta did neither right nor legal.

[pnwmom]

138. Where in the airport is a nice private place for nursing?

I've never seen one. Certainly not the bathroom.

The airplane, with people belted into even rows of seats, is far more private than any lounge or waiting area in the airport.

[LeftyMom]

75. Because nobody else has to eat under a blanket. We shouldn't be cowed by prudes.

Brave women standing up protect the meek women who would otherwise be bullied. After all, if others introduce the idea that breastfeeding is icky, private, or otherwise restricted, rather than just the thing we do to put food into small bellies, how many women will give up and feed their children some inferior formula preparation instead just to spare themselves the hassle and potential embarrassment? The fight for public acceptance of breastfeeding is nothing less than a fight for the health and well-being of mothers and babies.

On a related note, I want to be Hathor when I grow up. She rocks. http://www.thecowgoddess.com/?p=63

[MuseRider]

85. Great site!

Thanks, I have that bookmarked.

You are very right. I do know women who have used formula because it is just too hard and embarrassing to nurse in public. I tried to show them how easy it was but I suspect their worry was coming from elsewhere. So sad but their choice.

[Erika]

88. That's what the girl at McDonald's said here.

She should be able to remove her top and breast feed while gorging herself with fries and a big mac.

All for the health and well-being of the mother and child. She lost her case.

You might also want to check out the mercury levels in breast milk as a study recently released.

[pnwmom]

142. You might want to check out the mercury levels in breast milk?

All that proves is that we're ALL being poisoned by what we eat and what is otherwise put into our bodies.

Think about it. Most nursing mothers were NOT nursed themselves. They were fed formula, and since then have been eating American food. And yet they have mercury in their systems.

It's a problem for all Americans, not just nursing couples.

[LeftyMom]

172. Absolutely.

We live in a poisoned world. The reason we hear that so much more in relation to breastmilk is simply because it's the easiest and least invasive means of testing human bodies for contamination because many toxins are stored in fat cells and milk is the only way we regularly excrete fats.

Since formula preparations are made with either bovine milk or GMO soybeans, plus some GMO corn syrup and sometimes corn oil, they tend to be more contaminated with pesticides and heavy metals than human milk.

[AlienGirl]

169. Does the formula company pay you for this?

[sniffa]

346. *snort*

:rofl:

[maddezmom]

209. Do you have a link to that story of the mom in McDonald's?

I've been googling and can't find anything

[pnwmom]

220. Neither could I, maddezmom.

Sounds like a hoax to me.

[Left Is Write]

407. When was this McDonald's case, and exactly where?

[pnwmom]

139. Thanks for the laugh!

[Pastiche423]

103. How long has it been since you flew?

As small as the interior of planes are now, the ONLY person that could see anything would have been the flight attendent.

So, who's going to see anything?

Signed

A mother that breast-fed her daughter on planes

[Erika]

108. I went back to the East Coast in August

And believe me everyone knows what's going on. I feel sorry for the cramped conditions on families (and everyone else). But the toddler could have been fed earlier or later.

[pnwmom]

144. Where in the airport could she have fed that toddler discretely?

Although, if I had been the mother, I would have tried to delay any nursing so that my child would WANT to nurse during take-off and landing.

[Left Is Write]

404. Some kids won't nurse under a blanket.

They'll cry or kick it off.

Besides - using a blanket just makes it obvious one is breastfeeding.

[athena]

444. Not to mention, those blankets are disgusting.

I use them, but if I had a baby, I wouldn't want to cover it with a blanket. The blankets are no longer provided inside individual plastic bags, so they may not even be sterilized after every flight. Now that people are bringing their own food on the plane, eating whenever they like, and leaving the crumbs all over the cabin, airplanes have turned into incubators for bacteria. I usually come down with a cold after flying.

If the airlines are going to force women into bathrooms to nurse, I suspect they'll lose quite a few more customers. They've gone far enough, getting rid of food service, pillows on short flights, etc. Flying used to be fun; now it's a pain, even without a toddler.

[greccogirl]

53. You know I am totally sick of this crap.

Somebody needs to sue someone to stop this, breasts are given to women to feed children with. GET OVER IT.

[Erika]

73. Yes and airline tickets are sold at high prices

And offer comfortable flights without worrying about toddlers and breasts.

In my life time, it's been off and on as to whether breast milk is good for the child. A recent study showed high levels of mercury in breast milk that didn't exist in formula.

At one time, docs said to lay infants on their tummies to avoid SIDS, now I believe it is the opposite.

Anyway, just because women have mammory glands does not excuse them from manners nor verify the milk content is quality.

[pnwmom]

146. You've obviously got a personal problem with breastfeeding

for some reason or another.

But it has nothing to do with manners or the law.

[greccogirl]

424. In my life anytime I've found someone to be this weird

about breastfeeding it is usually because they have a deep seated guilt about not feeding their own properly. Never fails.

[AlienGirl]

162. WTF?! That "It costs a lot!" argument sounds just like something my coworker would say

He is a Social Darwinist/Free-Market Absolutist, and believes that rich people are just genetically better than everyone else, so money justifies anything.

Tucker

[pnwmom]

179. It does sound like a freeper argument, doesn't it?

[The Count]

182. You sound like a republican. Entitlement given by money to intrude on others'

lives. Kida like the bushes.You feel paying money entitles you to tell people what to do with their bodies. Guess what? The family with the toddler paid double what you paid. So there. Take your breast fear fixations elsewhere.

[latebloomer]

235. So don't worry about toddlers and breasts!

There's no NEED to worry about them. Open your magazine, and mind your own damn business!

:eyes:

[Ms. Toad]

242. Just in case you really have health worries,

and are not just (as it appears from all the straw men tossed up) grossed out at the thought of using breasts for their intended purposes:

Conclusions. Neither Hg nor Pb concentrations exceeded critical levels. There are no reports on infants harmed by the intake of milk from unexposed mothers. We conclude that even theoretical risks from current Hg or Pb levels for the breastfed infant of a healthy mother can be ruled out.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/110/5/873.pdf

Unlike the persistent organic pollutants (POPs), metals do not bind to the fat, and so do not usually accumulate to higher concentrations in breast milk than in blood. As a result, infants are likely to be exposed to higher levels before birth than during breastfeeding. . . . Generally, infants fed formula made with tap water are at the highest risk from metals contaminating the water supply.

http://www.nrdc.org/breastmilk/chem13.asp

[The Count]

270. And more importantly, that mercury won't jump at the ticket buying travellers

neither will the breasts....

[mondo joe]

278. Feeding a child isn't bad manners. Where do you get that??????

[greccogirl]

423. You are wrong. It is NEVER on and off that breast milk is the defining

food for infants, PERIOD. As my baby doc said to me, "cows milk is for COWS. Mother's milk is for babies". You guys really need to get over this because soon it will be illegal to stop a mother from nursing her child anywhere - the world isn't going to put up with this nonsense.

[Homer Wells]

446. Being this is such a brouhaha, and the thread

is approaching KUDZU levels, IMHO, this lady has deep personal issues regarding breasts, and knows not of what she speaks

(Respectfully said, of course)

:eyes:

;)

[Amused Musings]

72. All of your assessments are wrong and missing the point

What really happened was that the airline was tipped off that that terrorists (not anyone specific, just regular run of the mill "terrorists") were going to smuggle "liquid bombs" onto the plane and said liquids were smuggled in the "mother" and "baby" (I bet she was not even the real mother! And why does that baby have a five o'clock shadow?). Mother starts breastfeeding...

KA-BLAM!

I salute our efforts on the War on Terror! Will Bush's star ever stop rising?

[Erika]

74. Good point

Remember the mother who was forced to drink breast milk to prove she wasn't a terrorist? Our world is so screwed.

[kitty1]

84. Why would they offer a blanket to a terrorist suspect then? n/t

[Amused Musings]

95. Woops

I was just joking about the absurdity of the recent situations involving planes and airports. I didn't mean to imply that they actually thought she was a terrorist. Although Erika recalls a similar situation...sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

[Captain Hilts]

81. How about using a bottle? nt

[Erika]

91. How about a tippy cup

The toddler was 22 months old.

[Berry Cool]

100. Yeah, let's go to extremes to accommodate everyone else on the plane

who might be squicked out by seeing even the slightest swell of exposed breast.

Sheesh!

[Erika]

105. Feed the kid first before the flight

Avoid the flak. Must be one of those parents who feed when it's at their convenience.

[BklnDem75]

113. Or others could read a magazine and stop being nosy.

A mother feeding her child should not have to consider you in her list of priorities.

[LizW]

114. The choices:

The gate area? Not exactly private, if one is looking for privacy.
Airport lounge? No.
Benches along the concourse? Tons of people walking by.
Bathroom? Where's she supposed to sit to nurse? On the toilet?

Seems to me she chose the most private place that was available.

Face it. The flight attendant overreacted. He/she should have ignored the nursing mom and things would have been just fine.

[Erika]

123. Ah, the child was 22 months old.

She didn't need to be fed every two to three hours.

[AlienGirl]

174. Do you know this child? You know her metabolic rate?

There are kids who do have to eat every three hours or so or risk becoming shaky and cranky and then passing out. (I was one of those kids.)

Tucker

[Marnieworld]

305. sure

but there are other things they could eat at this point with teeth and all. Hardly an emergency nursing situation.

[pnwmom]

332. Why does it have to be an emergency?

What is so problematic about this picture?

http://www.myntoddler.com/

[mondo joe]

353. I'm unfamiliar with a policy requiring an emergency need in order to feed

a toddler.

[Doremus]

474. Jeebus but you are a broken record.

We get it already.

1. Toddlers don't "need" to be fed every 2 hrs. and if they merely "want" it, give them gum instead as the possibility of their choking is preferable to the mere thought of their getting sustenance from a mammary gland.
2. Nursing mothers should suffocate their child with blankets to protect the sensibilities of ignorant voyeurs who can't tear their eyes away in the hope of getting a flash of boob.

We got it.

Now why don't YOU get it and STFU.

I swear, some people shouldn't breed.

[kestrel91316]

130. Must be one of those wacky parents that cares about such nonsensical

things as alleviating painful ears in a two-year-old at takeoff.

Nursing = valsalva maneuver (IIRC)

[Erika]

140. Never had it happen nor heard it.

The child was 22 months old. Get a grip.

[TommyO]

268. And the mother and child are the ones to decide

when to stop breastfeeding - not you, not the flight attendant, and not the airlines.

[kestrel91316]

301. A 22-month old can't pop their own ears. I didn't learn to pop mine

until I was 5 or 6.

I'm not the one who needs to get a grip. Breasts are not nasty things. When used for the purpose for which they were designed, they are utilitarian.

Breastfeeding, like eating, is a civil right and not shameful.

[Kittycat]

366. You sound like a Freeper.

Just thought you should know.

[pnwmom]

150. WHERE? You keep saying that, but there is no

private place in an airport, where they no doubt had been for an hour or two.

And WHY? The mother was probably trying to make sure the baby was calm and quiet for the plane flight. A little tippy cup would NOT have done the trick.

You obviously never have breastfed. And since you kept bringing up gum, I can't imagine you were a mother either.

[AlienGirl]

163. One of those parents who feed when their baby's hungry....

[Left Is Write]

405. Maybe the point wasn't nutrition.

Maybe the point was relieving the pressure on her ears.

[pnwmom]

147. They didn't want people to bring fluids on board.

Seems like this mother was doing us all a favor.

[TommyO]

266. How about you let the mother

decide what's best for her child?

[mondo joe]

282. How about those who are offended putting a blanet over their heads while the

kid is nursing?

[Ms. Toad]

238. Some children,

including mine, refuse to drink from a bottle.

[JerseygirlCT]

377. Many breastfed children do not use a bottle, and will not

And a cup won't provide the same relief that sucking does.

[greccogirl]

427. Why?

How about letting the mother decide what is best for her child and rest of us minding our own business.

[buddysmellgood]

117. WHORE!!! CRAZED PERVERTED EXHIBITIONIST WHORE!!! BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!

How big were they?

[Crim_n al]

143. The sensible approach would be

to ban breastfeeding altogether.

Every thread I read on this forum illustrates the fact that breasts are fearsome obscene appendages that even many adults cannot bear to be exposed to. When intelligent, mature adults are affected so badly by the sight of a breast, who knows what effect naked mammary glands could have on a poor innocent baby.

And if the mother is backward enough to insist on breastfeeding, she should at least do it under a thick, heavy blanket. That way the baby will be unable to see anything and will be too busy trying to breathe under the blanket to drink too much. After all, breast milk is full of fat and sugar, and we know how important it is to only feed children sugar, not fat. Especially for the little girls, who must be kept cutsie and adorable so we can show them off, and so, when they grow up, they will still seem childlike enough to manipulate the guys and not frighten them.

All in all, we should really be training the little ones to keep themselves pure, sweet and skinny by feeding them gum instead of milk right from day one. That way, if they do still develop teeth, at least they wont be sharp enough to do any harm with. And it might even keep the darned things quiet.

[Erika]

145. Wow. Is Haggard now posting here?

Ted, Is that you?

[The Count]

183. No, dear. That was sarcasm. Too bad you missed it - it was damn funny!

I guess it got lost under that big stick of gum your chip on the shoulder was carrying.

[MuseRider]

196. Welcome!

Glad to have you aboard. Your sarcasm IS damn funny.

[Erika]

214. Almost cute

You ignore that the other ticket holder paid good money for their seats. They didn't need a display of a child at the food source.

Hopefully, you will look up the most recent releases on mercury in breast milk.

[pnwmom]

221. The mother has mercury in her body. So do you. So do all Americans.

That's the problem. It's in our food supply, whether or not we're a nursing baby.

And the money the other ticket holder paid -- that ticket holder across the aisle from the husband -- wasn't any more important than the money paid by the baby's family. They paid good money, too.

[Crim_n al]

223. When will people realise that eating and drinking are disgusting?

The whole process of putting food and drink into one's mouth are just reversed precursers of the inevitable elimination of the same.

It's time we acknowledge the fact that eating and excreting are just two sides of the one coin, and force everyone to do both in private smelly cubicles. For the purity of all people and the protection of our prejudices all restaurants and public eating areas should be banned.

Anything else is just plain Bad Manners.

[pnwmom]

230. I wonder how they'd like it if human babies fed like birds?

You know, the mom does the hard work of chewing and then spits it into the child's little mouth?

Yum.

[mondo joe]

289. Please don't pretend your objection has to do with mercury in breast milk.

[Occulus]

480. One Freeper trait is a lack of appreciation for sarcasm.

Can you name other Freeper traits?

:D

[buddysmellgood]

149. I think you should take it a step further and ban breasts. America cannot

handle them, even when America cannot see them behind a kid's head in the back row of an airplane, in the window seat through mom's sweater.

[Erika]

153. Nah, just ban the 22 month olds to their own seats

and food sources.

[BklnDem75]

156. Were you a similac baby?

Just wondering. :crazy:

[AlienGirl]

166. Sweetie, you must never have had a toddler...

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

167. That breast is that toddler's "OWN" food source. Who else's

food source could it be?

Now, I think it WOULD have been rude if the father, the flight attendant, or a nearby passenger had decided to help him or herself to that food source.

At least, out in public and all.

But the toddler was well entitled to it, wherever, whenever, and for whatever purpose s/he chose.

[MuseRider]

175. Great answer

and amusing too. :rofl: At least out in public and all. :rofl:

[pnwmom]

180. Thank you, MuseRider.

I thought maybe we could use some comic relief.

:hi:

[MuseRider]

181. It always helps.

I have to keep checking this thread. Nothing will get a mothers back up than something that has to do with children. At this point I am tired and the comedy is very welcome. I do remember often feeling a bit like a lunch cart but it was never a bad thing.

[pnwmom]

186. It's been more than a dozen years since I've had

a nursing little one. I see a lot more of it now "out in public" than when my first child was born, ages ago. I was hoping that meant that attitudes everywhere had improved.

It kind of reminds me of a thread here about a girl in Florida who got kicked out of her high school graduation because she wore black slacks and a white shirt under her graduation gown, instead of the required dress and HEELS! There were a number of DU'ers seriously arguing that she hadn't respected proper "decorum."

I'm sure glad I live in a place where people never talk about decorum. I don't think I (or my feet) could stand it.

[MuseRider]

192. Lets see.

I stopped nursing about 19 years ago. Funny, I can still almost feel that wonderful let down when I hear a baby cry. I don't think I will ever forget that.

I did not see too many others either come to think about it. I remember only once getting a funny look and I was not certain why because I was in an open place with many people around so I covered up totally with a baby blanket but really, I don't remember any problems. I certainly hope it is more common these days, it should be.

I wore jeans under my graduation gown in 71. I did not even attend my college graduation. I remember that thread too. I have not worn heels in years and intend to never do it again. I can more understand that attitude than the breast feeding attitude I am seeing tonight. I still think this poster was just messing with us.

Edit I meant that I could understand that attitude about the dress but I do not approve of forcing girls to dress like that. Just to be clear.

[EFerrari]

194. I remember that thread, too, I think.

It was hilarious. :)

[MuseRider]

195. As long as she

was not naked under that gown. She might pop a boob while moving her tassel.

[EFerrari]

197. LOL.

I feel a Barbie burning coming on. :)

[MuseRider]

199. *snort*

:)

[pnwmom]

206. Link to some nursing porn.

:sarcasm:

Scroll down a bit. Enjoy!

http://thedvdguy.typepad.com/the_watercooler/current_affairs/index.html

And here's a bigger baby.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.stcloudstate.edu/womenscenter/services/babycafe.asp&h=309&w=225&sz=14&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=TTfKwFCZhHdQGM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnursing%2Bbaby%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

And NURSING TODDLER TWINS!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.doubleblessings.com/testimony.html&h=150&w=201&sz=7&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=-ayNGx1deP8SFM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnursing%2Btwins%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[MuseRider]

239. Beautiful pictures.

There is one picture in the twins section that just blew me away. The twins taken from above and it looks like they are holding hands. Thanks, what a beautiful way to start my day.

[pnwmom]

335. That IS an adorable picture.

All this talk about nursing is making me feel nostalgic . . . luckily it's too late for me to do anything more than that (and wait for my daughter to have her turn!)

[MuseRider]

339. That is where I am.

My boys don't seem to be in any hurry, fortunately I suppose, but I am anxiously waiting. I know that they will be living no where near me so I am preparing myself for extended hotel stays close by because unless they tell me no I am going to be there hanging around being Grandma.

[pnwmom]

340. I can remember when my m-i-l first came to visit

after my baby was born. M-i-l hung over my shoulder, trying to get a good look, I suppose, of the nursing. (She had never done it herself.) It was kind of weird but . . . oh well!

[MuseRider]

352. LOL

that would be a little odd. I will have to be careful, I am learning with girlfriends what is not right and what is OK. Nobody in my entire family or the in laws had ever breastfed. They thought I was nuts. Oh you will ruin your figure! WHAT?? Isn't that a little strange to do in front of people? Yes, all the things that keep women from doing it. For me I wanted to but if I hadn't wanted to I would have done it anyway since it is better for the kids. I don't understand I guess how anyone giving birth could be convinced not to do it for their child. I certainly don't judge them but I certainly don't understand it either.

[pnwmom]

203. Another question: is it okay to nurse under a graduation robe

as long as you're wearing a dress and heels?

[Crim_n al]

205. Well, um .... that depends on a lot of things.

At what age are you graduating?

Because if you are a teenage mother, or unmarried, or on welfare, or scoffing McDonalds burgers while letting your toothy teenage tippler gnaw on your naked nipples, then anyone sitting beside you may get unbearably offended. In which case they would have every right to leave by leaping out the nearest window.

No matter what the altitude.

[pnwmom]

208. LOL!

I, for one, am not letting the toothy teenage tipplers that I know anywhere near that area.

But back in my younger years . . .

[MuseRider]

249. LOL!

Another early morning :spray:

You two are cracking me up.

Toothy teenage tipplers, there must be some place for that....a limerick?

[Midlodemocrat]

370. Only if you don't wear white before Memorial Day.

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

202. Hmmf!

Then you must be a guy!

[EFerrari]

178. Erika, this child was in a window seat with the father on the other side.

It was in its own seat.

So far you've offered the kid's age, the timing, the cramped quarters, and the mother's "exhibitionism" as reasons for you to object.

The kid's age isn't unusual, the timing is up to the kid and mother, the plane and the dad were on either side of the nursing couple, and the mom wasn't exhibiting anything.

This kid couldn't have bothered you unless you climbed onto the dad's lap to watch, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do.

[Erika]

211. The kid's age is very unusual

and the planning was horrible. But continue on talking for me. It must do something for you.

[pnwmom]

217. Assume you're right. Is there something wrong with "unusual"?

It's also unusual, for example, to be a vegan. Does that make it wrong?

But on a worldwide basis, a 22 month old still nursing is not unusual at all. Just, apparently, in your neck of the woods.

http://www.lalecheleague.org/ba/Feb01.html

"Many people are surprised to learn that experts consider 4 or 5 years to be the average age of weaning worldwide. Research by Dr. Katherine Dettwyler, anthropologist at Texas A&M University, argues that the natural weaning age for human beings falls between 2.5 and 6 years of age."

[KittyWampus]

263. That average age includes countries where poverty influences mom's decision

edit- I fully support any mom's decision to nurse her child til she sees fit.

Just introducing some facts.

Also, I say this in a non-judgemental tone, a 22 month child is nursing for comfort not nutrition. Which means the mom is still using nursing as a means of comfort and hasn't elected to stop. It's her choice, of course.

Just saying.

[pnwmom]

338. But what's the point of what you're "just saying"?

Mothers are entitled to nurse, as you say, as long as they see fit. Whether it is the only source of nutrition isn't relevant.

[Occulus]

482. I think s/he was saying that it doesn't really matter whether it was for comfort or for food

And I suppose, to be fair, I can see that financial means might be one consideration for continuing to breastfeed.

Not a thing wrong with it, either. We should try to get this added to Federal discrimination laws (color, religion, gender, etc) so it is publicly legal everywhere, at any time, up to the age of 5 years, 364 days: adopt the maximum of the world average.

Besides, by that time, they're able to be cognizant of the breast as a source of food and/or comfort, and are more likely to remember that as they age and become sexually active as adults (I think we all remember things from when we were five or six). In a subtle (or not-so-subtle) way, they will see the female breast more as it is obviously intended to be seen, and not purely as a sexual object. Yes, I'm saying psychology could play a role later on in helping in one small way to positively alter how women are treated by society as a whole. I'm also saying it could cement in with a single generation if it were handled correctly by our legislators.

Maybe I'm overanalyzing the whole concept, but Hooters is popular for a reason: breasts are seen as sexual objects. I'm submitting the idea that perhaps one reason for that (aside from the obvious marketing and media connections to the same attitude) is that our children are not being raised from birth with the connection between breasts and something other than sex. It's really quite simple, but people like Erika et al don't see this as a simple issue of feeding; no, for them, it's sexual, too.

It's not a sexual issue, but we've tried and tried saying that, and it's just. Not. Sinking. In. I'm with most of the sane-minded people here; Somebody has an agenda or something.

Maybe we should all pile on, write to Pelosi, send her office this thread, and ask her to consider publicly adding breastfeeding to Federal nondiscrimination laws. I can see this being a huge positive issue with women everywhere in the US if she were to play it right.

FYI, I'm a (gay) guy, and I wasn't breastfed (adoptee). But if even I get it, Certain Parties have something very, very wrong going on.

[Crim_n al]

219. It is unusual to be 22 months old, yes.

We are each only 22 months old for approximately 30 days out of our whole lives.

And, while parents and caring people might think this age is as important as any other in a child's life, it is obvious to the rest of us that a child of this age should have no rights whatsoever.
In fact, by even feeding this child its mother is rudely insulting the rest of us with the knowledge that an innocent little being is sensuously suckling on sweet milk from her softly bulging bosom.

Oh, the horror is too much from me. To think that by leaning forward and twisting my head around, if I time it just right, I might actually see nipple!

Can't this selfish mother see it would be much kinder to people like us for her to choke her child on chewing gum than to follow the WHO's guidelines and breastfeed her infant for two whole years?

It's about time parents everywhere realise that breast-feeding babies suck.

[pnwmom]

222. And breast feeding toddlers suck even more.

:rofl:

[Crim_n al]

224. I'm feeling so guilty, since reading this thread.

My first child was born with teeth; 3 razor sharp cutting tools.
And I had the most delicate inverted nipples.

And, instead of listening to what nature was obviously trying to tell me,
I suffered the excruciating pain of cracked nipples, sickness from mastitis,
and, (at first,) a biting baby, just to feed her when I obviously should
have been buying formula that I couldn't afford.
(I was single, with no-one to turn to, and was robbing rubbish bins for food at the time.)

If only I'd had Erica to give me advice back then....



By the way, things all turned out well, and now I'm a happy proud grandmother.

And every time she bit me I bit her straight back. It worked. ;-)

[pnwmom]

226. Goodness, Crim!

All that mercury you must have fed her -- and yet she survived! And even reproduced!

Despite the harrowing circumstances, you gave that baby of yours the perfect food. And as a single Mom -- wow. I'm impressed. (I'm just guessing that you weren't going to monthly La Leche meetings for help.) :wink:

Ah yes, the cracked nipples, the mastitis -- the other side of the story. I remember that too. Nursing can be hard work. But it was all worth it, wasn't it.

[TommyO]

271. No, it's not unusual

for children to be nursed to 24 months and beyond. I know this, and I'm a gay man.

[EFerrari]

304. The age isn't unusual at all. How much research have you done

on nursing?!

And as you don't know the "plan", how can you make that determination? Horrible for whom? You, reading the article? The nearest passenger had no complaint. :eyes:

I haven't spoken for you but only summarized your arguments, leaving out the personal attacks that you've peppered through this thread.

[treestar]

347. Well that doesn't matter much - neither does the mercury question

Those are separate issues - the real issue here is whether it is offensive for others to be around - there seems some disagreement. Personally it wouldn't bother me in the least. I can't imagine even thinking of complaining about it. Now, it might bother John Ashcroft. And from the thread, there is some set of people out there who are bothered by it.

But everybody has to put up with some things that bother them. For me, it is radios on everywhere. Radio ads and announcers annoy the heck out of me, but I'm obviously in the minority, as nearly every store and restaurant plays radios - or televisions tuned to news stations.

Breastfeeding makes no noise and doesn't bother me. Radios make noise and they do. But I have to put up with them. I would think whoever is terribly bothered by breastfeeding just has to put up with hit. It's not even all that common.

As to the cramped nature of the plane, that very factor makes it unlikely you will even notice someone in another seat breastfeeding.

[Left Is Write]

406. There is nothing unusual about nursing a 22-month-old.

What do you know about the planning? I'd guess the mother was planning to nurse her child to offer both comfort and pain relief.

[greccogirl]

429. Erika;

It is not unusual at all. All my nephews in my family were nursed minimum to age two and a couple past that. Both of mine were nursed as long as they wanted to. Why do you have such a problem with this? I think you have issues that are deeper than breast feeding and possibly need to look into yourself to understand why.

[Crim_n al]

161. Don't forget the mother in question did have a window seat ...

And there's no knowing who may have been looking in through the window.
Honestly, the shock could have caused the death of some innocent wing-walker.

So no more sarcasm. I'm sure you have no idea how terrible it is to see a pair
of swollen breasts and not be able to handle them.

[pnwmom]

171. Actually, that may be the problem of some of the people in here.

Who knows?

:shrug:

[Erika]

212. Most of us believe in manners and consideration of others

22 months is a touch much.

[pnwmom]

218. Check this out, Erika.

What is so impolite about this? And the World Health Organization and UNICEF both recommend nursing until AT LEAST 2 years of age. Around the world, many children are nursed till four.

http://www.myntoddler.com/

[Karenina]

422. Were that poster to be seated across the aisle

with Papa in the aisle seat and Mama comforting her child in the corner during a new experience, SHIELDED by Papa and the window, how the HADES would said passenger have ANY CLUE, or better yet, what would it signify IF said passenger had the hubris to think s/he had any clue of how the family chose to deal with the situation?

How the HADES would the complainant have any idea of the child's age? What does it matter? We are ALL being treated to and having our chains jerked by the lunatic ravings of an aggressive Amurikkkan MISANTHROPE in action. CHEWING GUM, indeed. Nevermind that the LOUD DENUNCIATIONS are coming from someone WHO WAS NOT ON BOARD at the time. It is ALSO clear that the poster obviously has neither EXPERIENCE WITH nor EMPATHY FOR young families or children. The numerous, ingnorant, repetitive posts inform us more about the poster than the situation at hand.

No big deal, thousands of views and perhaps the sincere entries of so many more enlightened DUers have caused others to think through their prejudices and silly reflexes. It's a VERY hard world we live in. Our babies need to be fed and our children comforted while we adults conduct our bidness.

I smoke rather than sucking my thumb. :evilgrin: It's more socially acceptable considering my advanced age. But that's verboten in-flight...

[Bridget Burke]

240. Yes, most of us do consider others.

We even spare a bit of pity for adults with "issues."

[Binka]

252. Not Me Baby No Pity

I can't believe we have folks posting here that sound like they do not have the sense to stop from choking on their own toenails.

[mondo joe]

279. I think manners dictate minding your business while the mother feeds her child.

Or are manners just something for others to have?

[gollygee]

472. I think every medical association in the world disagrees with you

Since every one I've heard of says at least 2 years.

But I guess the potential weird prudish issues of other travelers are more important that the dietary and nurturing needs of a child. *sigh*

[Homer Wells]

450. Hear Hear!!!

Forced mastectomies for all.

Why do Breast feeding women hate Murika??? :sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

151. Welcome to DU, Crim_n al!

[Crim_n al]

188. Thankyou, pnwmom.

I've been reading your posts for a lot longer than I've been posting. ;-)

[pnwmom]

191. Well I'm glad you spoke up. I like your voice.

We need all the humor we can get!

[Crim_n al]

207. That's because you haven't heard me sing ...

yet ;-)

[JerseygirlCT]

378. LOL! nt

[gorbal]

225. They were in Vermont, she had a right

They have rules about those sorts of things there.

[pnwmom]

228. One more reason why it's the Great State of Vermont.

[martymar64]

454. Vermont sounds pretty cool . . .

A socialist Senator, Howard Dean, Phish and Ben and Jerry's! I'd moved there if it weren't so bloody cold!

[Ian David]

231. I just don't see why we have to limit breast feeding to children.

I want me some of that action, too!

[Blue_Tires]

276. +1

I hope she brought enough for EVERYBODY!!:evilgrin:

Normally i'd be against this sort of thing, but as long as it made the kid stfu on the flight, more power to her

[bleedingheart]

232. I am amazed by some of the more prudish posts

boy ...there are people here who are really uncomfortable around the human body.

There is nothing more beautiful than a woman breastfeeding a baby. If someone is offended by that, then I would recommend counseling for whatever trauma they received as a child to make them so prudish.

[Vinca]

237. Here boob wasn't exposed! What is the problem??????

Would the airline prefer a screaming baby? I hope she wins her law suit.

[sniffa]

245. god i'm so sick of these breast feeders

constantLy shoving it down my throat and turning me on.

[Veronica.Franco]

248. The World continues to laugh at the Puritanical Americans ...

such fools ... terrified of a breast and a baby ... is it any wonder the religious right followed the Bushies to their demise? ... OH my god that woman has a breast ... stop the plane! ... sheesh ...

[FlaGranny]

251. It is extremely difficult for

this grandmother to get her mind around the attitudes of people who are shocked by the sight of a breast. Is it some silly notion that breasts are dirty? It seems some folks are very repressed and backward in their thinking. I would like to see those that want mothers to feed their babies in the bathroom do so themselves. Just take your sandwich into the bathroom at the corner gas station or any public rest room and sit on the toilet while you eat it. Very pleasant place to have your lunch.

[pnwmom]

341. I think for some of them, unconsciously,

breast feeding is some form of mutual masturbation. Honestly. Something only to be done under a cover.

[MindPilot]

264. I don't care if that was the ugliest woman on earth and completely naked

I'm cool with anything that keeps a kid from crying on an airplane.

[buddysmellgood]

265. AMEN!!!

[pnwmom]

343. More common sense. thanks.

[Tesha]

267. Woman wins. Slam dunk.

> A complaint against two airlines was filed with the Vermont Human
> Rights Commission, although Executive Director Robert Appel said
> he was barred by state law from confirming the complaint. He said
> state law allows a mother to breast-feed in public.

If the plane was in Vermont airspace, she wins. Slam dunk.
End of discussion. (Probably true in NY airspace as well.)

Boob-haters can just, well, "suck it up".

Tesha

[The Count]

272. Sucks to be them, don't it? On more levels than one.

:rofl:

[bloom]

274. Is it boobs they hate?

Or babies? Are they jealous? It doesn't make any sense.

[Gormy Cuss]

315. Failure to follow the instructions of the flight crew?

I think that's going to be the point of view of the airline and in these Chicken Little days I wouldn't be surprised if they prevail. It appears that the flight attendant didn't tell her that she couldn't breastfeed the child, just that in the flight attendant's perception the breastfeeding wasn't done discreetly.
I am not defending the airline nor am I suggesting that the flight attendant had a bona fide reason, just that these days passengers are ejected if they display any resistance to the suggestions of flight attendants.

[Tesha]

323. The flight crew can't give instructions that are illegal.

The woman wasn't arrested or cited.

The flight crew gave instructions that are clearly illegal
in the airspace of the state of Vermont.

Slam-dunk. The only question is how much it will cost the
airlines to settle quietly.

Tesha

[Gormy Cuss]

351. It would be illegal to refuse to allow her to breastfeed, true.

That would be a slam dunk. Isn't the civil rights issue one of whether requiring the mother to use the blanket constitutes a barrier to breastfeeding? The kid is a toddler and I sure as hell wouldn't want to struggle with a cranky baby who doesn't understand why there's a blanket over his head.

BTW, if I read the VT statute correctly, the maximum fine assessed for a single violation is $1000. No big bucks unless the airlines want to make the whole thing go away. It's a PR nightmare for them.

The sad truth of it is that flight crews can and do remove people from planes without arrests or citations following -- that's part of the Chicken Little security world we live in these days. Failure to follow their instructions, out you go, no matter how stupid or narrow-minded the instruction is.

Edited to add link to another screwed up story of passengers held hostage by the views of the flight crew:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2723552

[pnwmom]

408. I'm guessing that they filed a CIVIL suit against the airline,

in which case the penalty assessed could be anything -- the idea would be to set an example. I imagine their lawyers will encourage them to settle -- they don't need this kind of publicity.

[pnwmom]

342. Even better. The jet was on Vermont land.

[jpwhite]

283. another effort to control people

This is just dumb. A man can walk around with his shirt off but if a woman shows a nipple then she has committed a "cardinal sin". It's like when the whole thing happened with Janet Jackson and people were in an uproar. I believe that a woman should be allowed to walk around topless. I have no problem with that. Breasts are a part of the human body and they should not be considered taboo. A woman should be able to breastfeed her baby anywhere she wants to. We have much bigger problems to worry about in this world than covering up a breast.

This is just another effort to control people.

James
[email protected]

[cshldoc]

306. Cue Samuel L. Jackson

"Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherSucking babies on this motherSucking plane!"

[Auggie]

310. LOL

[Tight_rope]

316. LMBAO..

[Fierce]

317. Damn right she should file a complaint.

The attitudes on this thread make me sick.

[Tight_rope]

318. 22- month old?...Ain't that kinda old to be sucking on the nipple.

I mean...I don't my child sucking after he/she gets his first tooth.

[ScreamingMeemie]

333. No it is not. It may be too old for you, but it is not too old for some mothers.

This is one of the days when I hate the fact that I logged onto DU. What the hell is with some of the backwards ideas here?

[gollygee]

471. Most medical associations recommend at least two years now

I thought it was too old until my baby got that age and was still nursing. My daughter self-weaned a bit after she turned 2 - maybe 27 months? They don't nurse forever but many kids do still nurse at that age and it's actually recommended.

[phusion]

334. Why are some people so offended

by breastfeeding? We are animals, after all.

This whole issue really just makes me go :wtf:

[qwlauren35]

344. After thinking about it...

Two wrongs occurred. The flight attendant was wrong to ask. But she was wrong to refuse.

Flight attendants and their authority on an aircraft has to be protected, even if they are wrong.

If she had said, "could you double check on whether that's really necessary?", I could accept it. But to refuse, no.

Now, at the same time, I think it's equally valid to kick people off of a plane who don't fasten seat belts, take headphone off or put tray tables up when asked. It's not about "rights". It's about respect for authority.

I think some people forget that flight attendants aren't just there for our personal convenience...

[Oak2004]

388. No their authority does NOT need to be preserved

when they are abusing their authority.

I'm a wheelchair user, and what I've been illegally subjected to by airlines when I've flown would quickly disabuse you of the notion that the authority of flight attendants should be absolute -- including one instance where a flight attendant ordered me to do the physically impossible (I of course refused), then got on the PA and announced to the remaining passengers of this already late flight that *I*, by *name*, was delaying the flight. This prompted several passengers to threaten me for disrupting their business schedule.

All this was after I had very carefully phoned ahead and explained that I either needed to preboard with a clear aisle (i.e., I could not wait behind someone putting their luggage away because my standing tolerance was extremely short) or I needed a boarding wheelchair and assistance, and reiterated my request when I got to the airport, *twice*. These are some pretty ordinary requests for accommodation.

[pnwmom]

410. But the flight attendant was breaking Vermont law. That's not her job.

[Caoimhe]

345. What happens if the child is 4 or 5?

or if hubby decides he'd like a little drink too? just asking :beer:

[Left Is Write]

409. Can I assume you know the difference between a child and a grown man?

[Caoimhe]

433. Well.. that's kindof a loaded question

Sometimes I can't tell, but that's another story. ;-)

My question was asked because I believe there is a line there somewhere, but people don't really want to say where it is.

What about the 4 or 5 year old? You didn't mention that in your semi-snarky reply.

[Left Is Write]

436. The snarkiness was intended to counter the outrageousness...

of the daddy wanting to take a taste business. Obviously, we both know that's not an issue, right?

I'm not about to pass judgment on anyone nursing a 4- or 5-year-old, especially without benefit of the relevant facts. For all I know, the child is developmentally delayed.

However, we're not talking about a 4- or 5-year-old. We are talking about a 22-month-old, and there is nothing weird or unusual or inappropriate about nursing a child of that age. Toddlers still receive many benefits from nursing, including nutrition and comfort. The added bonus in this case is that the sucking action can relieve the pressure on little ears.

[Caoimhe]

449. OK, I concede to using outrageous examples

but that is how we define the limits of what is tolerable or not. It's the same type of argument I often use in defending my pro choice position. "If I am raped and become pregnant" is surprisingly OUTRAGEOUS to many folks. They cite studies showing that rapes hardly ever result in pregnancy. (for many anti-choicers their "line" lies between consentual sex which results in pregnancy and incest/rape/health&life of mother) That doesn't matter to me. The point is, where is the line for you and what if my line is different than yours? Where should it be for society? Who decides? I didn't post what I did to make anyone angry, I was just curious.

As a nation we are definitely a study in socially conflicting values. We are constantly inundated with women in shreds of fabric in full glossy splendorific magazine pablum. Television is full of the same. We are awash in commercials about erectile dysfunction and vaginal odor, yet I hear little outrage. Threads before this correctly highlight that men can go topless on the street and not be harassed, but a woman without her shirt on will be arrested (after being ogled by many). I doubt that a man could board a plane without a shirt, but I could be wrong. Anyway, forgive my weird analogies, I'm tired and spent the day in Grand Jury and my brain is taxed and spent.

Humans seem to be able to outshock eachother constantly. The idea of a man taking a sip of his wife's nursing milk may seem outrageous, but if there is $$$ to be had in being banned from doing that very thing and suing over it, you better believe it's a possibility, maybe even a probability... Borat comes to mind. To all the good people in this thread who honestly believe the stewardess/airline is at fault, where would the line be for you? For those who think the stewardess/airline was right.. where is your line? What would be too much for you to handle?

[Left Is Write]

458. The man boarding a plane without a shirt is not a valid analogy.

The woman was not without her shirt.

One of the points you have made - that we are "constantly inundated with women in shreds of fabric in full glossy splendorific magazine pablum" - is exactly why acceptance of and the normalizing of breastfeeding and breastfeeding in public is such an uphill battle. Because of the heavy sexualization of the female breast, people have come to believe there is something shameful or dirty about nursing.

The idea of a man taking a sip in a public place is an "outrageous" example because it simply isn't comparable to nursing a child.

[Caoimhe]

463. Once again

you missed the point. I highlight examples as "tolerable" and "intolerable" to society. The idea of some idiot like Borat taking a "sip" in public is not that outrageous. No it is not the same as nursing a child, thank god. But that is not my point. You still don't answer my "child's age" question. Where is your line drawn? 4 or 5 or 6 or 10 or maybe age of majority (18)?

Just curious. Dismiss me if it makes you have to think less.

[Zomby Woof]

349. I didn't know John Ashcroft was running Delta Airlines

:shrug: I guess he doesn't like to let the nipple soar, from the cockpit, to the emergency exit door...

[MuseRider]

354. From shining sea

to rocky shore, let the mighty nipple soar.

You are so funny! :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

356. It was the breast pun I could produce

I mean, best pun. :blush:

If I am allowed to drink from a cup on a plane, why shouldn't an infant? :D

[MuseRider]

362. Zomby

face it, you just suck. :)

[flvegan]

355. Curious...one can't leave their seat when the plane is "preparing to leave" and I also

believe they may still have issues with some liquids on planes, which would include pre-expressed milk, a bottle, etc. Therefore, it would seem that using the restroom (ew!) was out of the question, and that having a bottle in the ole carryon luggage might have been as well.

Sooooo...how else was this supposed to go down again? Oh, right...covering up an unexposed bodypart with a blanket. Makes sense.

[NaturalHigh]

357. I don't care one way or the other.

I just don't want to hear any bitching when she looks over and sees some guy watching her.

[Writer]

359. Nipples!

Nipple-lipple-lipple-lo. Nip nippa nip nippy. Nipple!

Nippa nippy cheeri-o. Nip nappa nippy-o. Nipple!

Nipple pipple. Pippi pippa nipple. Nippa pipple nipple!

I have not read one goddamned posting in this thread. And I'm glad on it. It all comes down to whether you enjoy watching fluids exude from body parts or not. Who winces at scatological statements? References to urination? Ejaculation? Even the process of milking a cow? Does it make you sick or not? Do you mind watching these processes or not? Huh? HUH? Or if you're like me who JUST DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN.

(walks out of the thread grumbling, slams door behind her, a la Lewis Black)

[pnwmom]

415. Actually, it doesn't come down to that at all.

There is no visible fluid leakage when a baby is being nursed. It's only when a crying baby is NOT nursed, and the milk "lets down" anyway (starts leaking out on its own -- it's an involuntary response) that serious leakage might occur.

[Writer]

484. Thank you for that...

but I still believe this entire debate is an INCREDIBLE waste of time!

[LynneSin]

363. My two cents - for what it's worth

As long as the woman doesn't stand in the front of the plane, expose her breast for everyone to see and breast feed in front of all of the passengers - who the fuck cares?

Many women I've seen breastfeeding know how to do it so it is discreet. My only issue is if there were other non-related kids who happen to be sitting in the row with her, perhaps she should ask for a different seat

[pnwmom]

417. She was against the window, sitting next to her husband

who was in the aisle seat.

In my nursing experience, other kids couldn't care less about the whole thing. It was adults who had opinions.

[mondo joe]

364. I'd thank any parent for being that attentive to their kid on a plane.

Keep em happy and fed and quiet.

I don't know what the problem is.

[distantearlywarning]

365. As a non-mother by choice and someone who flies occasionally,

I can tell you that I would much rather have the woman in the seat across the aisle breastfeeding her baby (yes, even a 2 year old) and possibly showing me *gasp* part of her breast than have to listen to a screaming, hungry toddler during take-off and landing. Visible breast vs. Screaming. Hmmm... Bring on the breast any day!

I would also like to say that I am heartily sick of the prudish attitudes in this country. It's a boob. Big deal. Janet Jackson didn't permanently scar our national psyche, and neither will a breastfeeding mother on a plane.

[SoCalDem]

368. With a flight that short, perhaps the seat belt sign was on

These days, "lap children" are not allowed on most airlines ...purely for safety.

Perhaps the child being on her lap and not safely in his/her own seat was the bigger issue..

If they were preparing to land, it might have been better to wait until they landed..

Just another reason why driving is better that all the hassles of flying :)

just sayin'

[lindisfarne]

479. Most US airlines allow children under 2 to fly for free, as long as they're

in an adult's lap (this is true for domestic flights, at least). I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from.

[lukasahero]

380. To those who are offended

What is it that offends you? A woman feeding her child? The sight of a woman's breast? The sight of a woman's breast being used for something other than your sexual titilation?

There are some posts here that definitely lead me to believe the third option is the real issue.

[Phillycat]

382. I'll say this.

I am not offended by any of it, but I do think it's weird to breastfeed a two year old. I won't even get into the women who breastfeed their school-age children. :crazy:

I respect this woman's right to legally breastfeed and I would discreetly turn my head if I was on a plane with her. But when a child is old enough to ASK for the breast, when their long legs dangle off the mother's lap, and when they're coming home from 1st and 2nd grade to nurse, I think you've crossed into an icky area.

[MuseRider]

384. It really is not all that unusual

but most women will hide that simply because they get looks and remarks that make them feel uncomfortable.

My youngest almost made it to two before he weaned himself. I was planning on breastfeeding him until he quit so we could have gone longer.

I do like that you support it even if you think it is icky. That is one step. Until people see it more often your reaction will be the norm.

[Phillycat]

386. Absolutely, I support it.

To be perfectly honest, although I am almost a single-issue political freak re: pro-choice, I would prefer never to have an abortion myself. I'm not sure I could do it. But I would die, literally, for another woman's right to have one.

As far as breastfeeding older children, I wonder about two things (and I am truly not being snarky, I am curious):

1. Couldn't it be more for the mom than the kid? I've been to some of those pro-BFing websites and the moms always say something like, "I sensed a need in my son/daughter" as the reason why they continued BFing into toddlerhood and beyond. And I always wonder, is the mom maybe sad that her baby isn't a baby anymore, and is trying to prolong that experience?

2. The other question is a bit more touchy. How old is too old? One on of the sites linked above, there was a 10 year old boy still breastfeeding. Being that a 10 year old is in preadolescence, don't you think that's crossing the line into inappropriateness? If you do, then what IS the cut off age? 5? 6? 7? 7 seems fairly common among the extremely pro-BFing crowd, yet seems over the top to me. Who decides on the cut off age? And should there be legal recourse if BFing continues LONG past the time it is appropriate?

[MuseRider]

398. A thoughtful post

with questions I am certain I can't answer very well if at all. Unfortunately I have just stopped in and have to leave again and will be out until late working. If this thread is still up I will answer the best I can but there are probably more women on this board who could answer better than I can. You might want to pose it to someone else?

One thing I do know, as with everything else in this world when many people are involved with something there will always be a few who are different. It is entirely possible that some women might be fulfilling their own needs. I don't think I have ever know anyone like that but I can't say that it isn't possible.

I understand why you asked, I hope someone can answer you.

[pnwmom]

413. I read that, too

and the 10 year old story was hard to believe. But, in the off chance that it is true, we don't know the circumstances -- the child could be severely disabled, for example. We just don't know.

As far as younger children go, gray areas are just one of those things we have to live with (kind of like late term abortions -- it's not like being prochoice means anyone's enthusiastic about that). It's the fundies who want to have everything in black and white, simple, clear, never any question.

But this story is about a toddler who isn't even 2.

[Karenina]

387. This thread reveals a DEEP American SICKNESS.

Babies must eat to SURVIVE. When they are hungry one simply FEEDS THEM. It's the simple solution.

A toddler does not CHOOSE to take a plane ride. A mother, out of consideration for others and attending to HER child's needs, chooses to offer the child comfort and normalcy for THEM, "protected" by her HUSBAND and a back row seat number. This NORMALCY has the added advantage of protecting the child's ears and keeping her/him calm in a new experience.

I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the flight attendant is some sort of fundamentalist, injecting a personal prejudice into a benign situation in seeking control of others.

Some of the remarks on this thread are APPALLING. In other cultures, children are comforted and and quieted while business goes on as usual.

[ghostsofgiants]

411. Hold up...

There's a baby sucking on a breast on my screen. I'm neither disgusted, disturbed, turned on, or in any way, shape or form bothered by it. Does that mean there's something wrong with me?

[Karenina]

426. I'm dispatching the THOUGHT POLICE

IMMEDIATELY!!!! Obviously YOU need some re-education! ;-)

[pnwmom]

414. What a great pic!

Wow.

And here I thought I was comfortable nursing.

Do you know in what country that picture was taken?

[Karenina]

425. That's Hugo Chavez

speaking to one of his constituents in Venezuela. Do note that a male member of his security detail is staring at the TIT! So what??? Hugo is busy with mom, baby is fed and his immature guard gets a cheap thrill. WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE??? :evilgrin:

[pnwmom]

431. yeah, I noticed the observer. Hah!

And I also noticed the absolutely unself-conscious, unabashed look on that mother's face, nursing while speaking to the President, in front of cameras and reporters.

And I was jealous.

Wow. To be that self-confident.

[Karenina]

455. But consider this, my dear pnwmom...

It's not "self-confidence," it's just NORMAL. Of course, getting to say your piece to the president and have him respond is important, exciting and memorable. You have your infant with you by neccessity and that IN NO WAY diminishes your status. You tend to the baby in a natural way (quiet kid, I'm talking to the president!) while having an audience with the man you elected to represent you. HE ADDRESSES YOU AND YOUR CONCERNS considering your child's presence JUST NORMAL.

What a concept, eh?

[greccogirl]

434. I'll probably make a lot of people weird with this.

When my premie was born, I had HUGE BREASTS (from a 34A to a 42 DD) and he could not get the milk out fast enough - the second day after he was born the nurse came to me and told me about two sets of twins that had been abandoned, both of them suffering drug addiction and fetal alcohol problems, and they weren't eating well. She stood there and hemmed and hawed around and and finally I said "lead the way". I nursed all four of them plus mine for 12 days. I probably could've tried pumping but hand pumps just made me make more milk and made me sore. I even stopped by the hospital for a couple of days after I was discharged to help them. Now I bet they won't admit it but there are folks are there reading this who are grossed out.

[deadparrot]

435. That's a great story.

:thumbsup:

Good for you! :hi:

[pnwmom]

441. I am totally IMPRESSED both by you

and by the nurse who was brave enough to ask you . . . or at least to hem and haw till you volunteered. Good for you both!

That story made my day.

[Karenina]

460. YOU DARLING!!!!

Anyone "grossed out" by your contribution to those babies' lives, welfare and future needs to be taken out behind the barn and soundly switched!

It's called "wet nursing." Your anonymous, unconditional love will remain with those children throughout their lives. :hug::hug::hug:

[Lars39]

473. You did an absolutely wonderful thing, greccogirl!

:hug: And don't let anybody ever tell you different.

[MuseRider]

481. Just because of this one story

I am so glad this thread is still up. You are a very kind and generous woman. It is beautiful that you did this, just beautiful. Thank you for telling us this. I can't imagine anyone being grossed out or think you weird. I want to hug you for helping those little babies. :hug:, best I can do.

[pnwmom]

412. What's weird to you is normal to the rest of the world.

So be it.

What's so strange about a toddler nursing?

www.myntoddler.com

[Occulus]

483. There are many societies in which it's expected for as long as the child wants/needs it

they usually self-wean, after age three, perhaps four. But if the child is still desiring it at age five, yes, it's time to gently wean them off if they're not doing it on their own.

I posted elsewhere that the child consciously seeing the breast as a food/comfort source might not be such a bad thing, as there's a chance later on in life they won't see them as sexually as we do today.

This assumes being able to remember doing it interferes with seeing breasts as sexual objects. I don't know that there's any reliable data on that, but it's a question worth considering.

(I've read these threads before. Learned a lot. Thought a lot since.)

[Anakin Skywalker]

418. Who the Hell Would Complain About Such a Thing?

I don't get it.

[GirlinContempt]

430. And so, in summary

OMG BOOBS

[WindRavenX]

432. This thread is incredibly sad. I can't believe some people are so...

...freaked out by feeding :(

[okoboji]

453. yep

It's the same mentality with people who have issues with certain TV programing ... instead of just changing the channel to avoid the program that is offensive, those people find it necessary to crusade to protect the rest of civilization from the program that they deem offensive.

Erika and the flight attendant are just trying to protect mankind from 22 year old toddlers from sucking on breasts. This is thier crusade. Personally, I think there are far greater issues out there in this world that needs way more attention and resolve then mothers breast feeding in public.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

437. All this fuss over food storage units

Breasts=Silos, people.

[okoboji]

452. OMG!!

those first two photos of the silos look like a giant ...


PENIS


I suddenly shudder at the thought that corn, wheat, and beans, are stored in containers that look like a penis....

I'm starting a new protest!!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

461. That's worthy of a thread all its own....

:rofl:

[Sequoia]

439. Update: 30 Protest Ejection of Nursing Passenger

SOUTH BURLINGTON, Vt. Nov 15, 2006 (AP)— About 30 parents and their children sat in front of an airline counter Wednesday to protest the treatment of a passenger who said she was kicked off a plane for breast-feeding her child.

Mothers breast-fed their children and held up signs during the "nurse-in."

"I just think it's unbelievable that it happened in 2006, especially in Vermont" said Lora McAllister, a Swanton mother. "It's kind of mind boggling."

Emily Gillette of Santa Fe, N.M., had complained that she was kicked off an airplane because she was nursing her baby.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2655990

[geniph]

448. The way I see it

(hell, a thousand other people have already weighed in on this, I might as well join the party)

See, there's three things that have to be considered here. A kid that age may not actually still be regularly nursing, but there are three advantages to doing so on an airplane: 1) keeps the kid quiet, 2) keeps the kid's ears from causing him pain, and 3) comforts the kid. All of those reasons, to my way of thinking, trump any considerations of personal squeamishness. I don't care if she strips to the waist and bares all, so long as Junior is happy and quiet. Flying is unpleasant enough without an unhappy youngster screaming in pain. Anything that makes that easier on all of us is a good thing.

Most of the mothers I know quit nursing when Junior started chewing, but different kids start chomping at different ages. And teeth come in at different ages, too.

[lindisfarne]

478. 100% agreed. And just for the record, the vast majority of the world's

children nurse for far longer than the average American child does: the "natural" thing is to nurse for several years.

[eppur_se_muova]

457. If a woman chose to breastfeed in the seat next to me, I think I'd be kind of flattered ...

that she trusted me, a stranger, to be polite and not make a big deal out of it. Prudes and bluenoses think breastfeeding is offensive or dirty.

[RaRa]

466. Given the current administration

(well, especially if Ashcroft were still around), I'd argue that everyone here arguing against breastfeeding in public view should be arrested for pedophilia. That IS what you're thinking, right? I mean, the baby is FEEDING, and you all are freaking out, so there are sexual thoughts running through your mind?

Let's get a grip here folks.

[Heidi]

485. Locking.

Flamefest.

Heidi,
LBN Moderator