US group wants medical tourists barred (India)

[OhioChick]

Posted Monday , October 16, 2006 at 17:21
Updated Monday , October 16, 2006 at 17:37

New Delhi: After BPOs, its medical tourism that's in the eye of the storm.

The biggest US industrial workers' association, the United Steel Workers' Union (USW), now wants to stop Americans from visiting India and other low-cost destinations for medical treatment.

The Union has lodged a complaint with the Senate and the house committee but the Government is yet to respond to the complaint.

Experts say though the issue may not lead to legislation, it could result in laying down of guidelines.

Reservation to medical tourism is part of the larger issue of their resentment towards outsourcing.

~snip~ While USW's complaint has cited issues like liability in case of medical negligence and quality standards in low-cost destinations, the real issue could be the potential job losses in the health sector of the developed countries.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-group-wants-medical-tourists-barred/24108-17.html

on edit to add: Continuation of story from last week:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2557586#2558478

[drm604]

1. K&R This is important.

They are actually considering outsourcing health care to other countries! I never would have believed it but it's being tried and it MUST be fought.

[Francine Frensky]

13. If it takes outsourcing to bring prices lower, so be it

The medical community in the US has become an overpriced oligopoly. Remember what happened to US automakers in the '70's when consumers realized we could get a better product at a better price from Japan.

Something has to be done to wake up the medical community thats dripping in easy money while we have 25 million uninsured americans and our health statistics are nothing to brag about.

[AnneD]

19. Nurses wages were flat .....

during the 90's (when everyone else's was going up) and have only recently begun to come up (1999-2004 saw the first small increases). This in part is why there is a shortage of Nurses. The conditions are too unsafe to practice and graduates with similar education can earn more in any other field with out the same stress and danger.

Education for health care workers is expensive and labor intensive. I feel for the young nurses coming out today-and even sorrier for the docs. The student loans they have to repay are monstrous. It will be some time before they benefit from their hard work.

Yes, there is waste but it lie in the insurance middle man and hospital CEO's. We have been fussing about this. Most of the folks you encounter went in to help folks not for money (esp Nurses).

My contention is and always has been that s basic level of health care should be provided to every person in this country. Some others don't see it that way.

OH and that little analogy about the car buyer getting a better deal from Japan. You may get your wish. Say one day you find yourself in a MVA (motor vehicle accident in that foreign car of yours), and you need that hospital (that closed down cause too many cases were outsourced and the went under)-----I'll be happy to scrape your parts of the road and send them air express to Japan for that superior care (uh, you do have the air fair don't you).:sarcasm:

Folks-this is a red herring....we need to have access to the care here in this country. We still have the best most innovative care here. Don't let them drive this into the ground too.

[Francine Frensky]

21. Nurses are employees, not owners, in the healthcare industry

nurses's salaries aren't ever going to go up very high because they are a controlled and managed cost for a business, like a janitor or a roll of toilet paper, to the owners of the healthcare industry. Yes, the salaries will have to go up a little if supply is down, but this isn't what I'm talking about when I talk about healthcare providers...those would be the owners: the doctors, the hospital management and board, the drug company management and stock holders.

As for the analogy, let's not get personal, ok? My point is simply that a little competition on pricing is very important and should be a wake up call for the industry to STOP RAISING IT'S OWN PRICES 10% a year, well ahead of inflation, as it has been doing for 30 years.

And your comment about the US having the best most innovative care here...that's not been my experience and I sure bet it hasn't for the 25 million uninsured Americans.

[AnneD]

23. There is a regional variant too.

I happen to live near the Medical center in Houston. We are always ahead of the curve in technology and implementation.

But my point is....it's not the quality of care, but the access to it that is the problem.

The business model with it's profit motive is not viable in health care. Health care should be a trust, like education, like our natural resources, and like our airways.I happen to remember what our health care was like BEFORE the business model was introduced. They are trying to do the same thing in education now with this vouchers crap.

If our health care dollars leave this country, they will not come back but circulate in the other country. Let me explain it like this. There is more profit in a cardiac surgery. Your local general hospital pools that money and uses some of that to off set say a vaginal delivery from a poor uninsured woman. Now say they open a cardiac hospital in your town. They can cut the price a bit and still make a profit on that cardiac surgery. Now, your local hospital has lost that extra that they had to offset the charity care they provide. Eventually, they will go under because they have fewer paying.

And my analogy is close to the truth. If we start sending out some of this care, our health care system will indeed collapse. We are being forced to make a false choice here. Cut out the middle men that suck away the money, like medical insurance companies. Establish a base line of care for everyone (shots, basic dental, asthma, diabetic care-no triple organ transplant:hide: ). People can buy insurance to cover other things (like triple organ transplants, etc). We do not/should not be forced to go overseas.

[rainbow4321]

30. Nurses' salaries will stay down....

because of the hospitals recruiting from overseas from places like the Phillipines and also from hiring new grads for jobs experienced nurses won't touch with a 10 foot pole.

My floor alone has seen about an 80% turnover in nursing staff in about a year. Crappy staffing being the main reason for people leaving.
The new nurses we have brought on have us wondering if the hospital is scraping the bottom of the barrel for help. Hiring people who lie about their past experience..may sound good in the interview but once they hit the floor, we find out the truth when they look like deers in the headlights.

The nurses who are still with us asked management the other week about why not offer bonuses for extra shifts worked. Management's response: "you should want to come in just to help your co-workers and NOT for extra $$".
The nurses asked about getting salaries increased last month. Management's response: "we want people to work here because they like the place and enjoy it and NOT be here just for money".

Meanwhile: The hospital having **18** empty staff nurse positions in the 3 critical care/step down units says OTHERWISE.

Personally, I think if a shift/floor is short nurses, management needs to be told they need to come in to "help their co-workers" instead of doing their 8-5 paper pushing job.

[Vidar]

2. The Steelworkers are wrong. Too bad there isn't a closer place

than India. with affordable medical care.... like Cuba. Bullies of America, unite.

[OhioChick]

4. Continuation of story from last week:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2557586#2558478

Healthcare in another country should be a choice, not an ultimatum.

[SheilaT]

3. Right.

Why should any Americans at all have access to affordable health care when a much more expensive, and limited, option is available here.

[havocmom]

9. Yeah, better US HMO force gravely ill patients to travel abroad

to get medical care. :eyes:

It has happened. And people have died, away from home and loved ones.

If Big Pharma can get away with the lie that going to Canada for the same drugs at a lower price endangers Americans, should Big Insurance get away with the lie that medical care in the US is just not an option for many of their clients?

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. But medical tourism is a vital part of the Bush healthcare plan!

You probably think I'm kidding, but I'm not. From http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/03/030206india.htm

Report: Bush Considers Outsourcing Some HIV/AIDS Care To India
by Peter Hacker, 365Gay.com Asia Bureau Chief
March 3, 2006 - 12:01 am ET

(New Delhi) Press reports from India following a meeting between President Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh suggest the US is considering outsourcing some HIV/AIDS care to that country.

The reports cite a joint statement issued following the meeting on trade, security and HIV/AIDS that said health tourism from the US to India was an area with "enormous potential for collaboration".

Given India's "world-class medical care facilities at reasonable costs, the two countries could leverage Indian expertise for their economic and social benefit" the Times of India quotes the joint statement as saying.

The two countries agreed to harmonize their healthcare systems and develop specialized medical insurance and legal packages for US patients to boost health tourism.

The article continues at the link given above.

Earlier discussion on this article, now archived, can be read at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2143614

[MannyGoldstein]

6. But... But... But...

But wehavethebestmedicalcareintheworldandthecheapestbecauseofthefreemarketeveryoneelsesuckspeopleinCanadaarelininguptocomeherefortreatmentblahblahblah

(On a serious note, I recently spoke with a thoracic surgeon who'd just returned from India - he said their operating rooms are better than ours...)

[Crunchy Frog]

7. So if you're sick, and you can't afford US medical prices

I guess you should just die. As long as we don't have universal health care in this country, "medical tourism" is going to be the only viable option for some people.

[Red State Rebel]

8. I had Surgery in Mexico Last Year

The hospital was beautiful, the surgeon was great and the care was superb. My surgery that was not covered by insurance would have cost me $35 to $50 thousand in the states and cost me $11,000 in Mexico. I'd go again in a hearbeat.

[AnneD]

20. Well,

I had a friend. She went to Spain for her surgery. She enjoyed it. Said she'd go again.


Only problem was, she developed complications less than a year out. She was never healthy enough to go back and where could she get redress.

She wound up in ICU for almost 2 years (a gradual decline). This was all indigent care. Broke and dead by 50. That $10k she save doesn't seem like a bargain to me.

I am very passionate that we have access HERE, IN THIS COUNTRY, to the fine medical teams we have here. It is not the quality of care but the access TO that care that is the problem. This is what were need to hold our elected officials feet to the fire over. Universal access to care.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. How would they prevent it?

How would they distinguish medical tourists from ordinary tourists, have the CIA track them?

[AnneD]

25. I guess

if you are on the no fly list, you're screwed.

[Mend]

11. how does this help the truly poor who can't afford tickets to India

the cost of providing for everyone is offset in part by the union's medical programs. If you shift this out of this country, no hospital would stay in business. Good luck with those medical emergencies. And by the way, how is India doing with research and development of new treatments? Have they developed any cures for anything yet?

[Francine Frensky]

12. Why would steelworkers want to help rich doctors???

Medical tourism is NOT the problem. Medical tourism is one response to a medical system that has spun completely out of control from a financial perspective.

In a nutshell, the biggest problem with healthcare in our country is this: HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS MAKE TOO MUCH MONEY.

It's ridiculous that average doctors make $250,000 a year, while average research biology PhD's, who had to spend many more years in school, make $80,000. It's ridiculous that seeing a doctor for ten minutes costs $250 (look closely at the receipt next time). It's ridiculous that doctors offices and buildings are fancier than banks. The bottom line is that ever since the 1960's, the medical community has been giving itself raises of 10% a year, way above inflation, and most of us didn't notice until a few years ago because our employers were paying the insurance company, so the true costs were hidden. But now that things have grown completely out of control from a financial perspective, it is possible to see how much money the healthcare community sucks from the rest of the economy, and we are all paying attention.

But NOTHING WILL CHANGE unless we put pricing pressure on healthcare providers (doctors, hospitals, drug companies), and medical tourism is actually a great way to start. I think it brings a measure of sanity back to have people look at the sticker price of procedures in the US and just see how crazy unrealistic they are compared to the rest of the world.

[suigeneris]

15. I've spent a career in healthcare and I agree (nt)

.

[physioex]

17. Care to back the validity of what said in that post?

Read my response below.

[physioex]

16. What are you talking about???

"average doctors make $250,000 a year" is absurd. What you are saying implies that over half the doctors make 250K+ and the rest typically below that range. I find this a bit hard to believe. From what I understand the average doctor makes in the 100K range or slightly more and that is absolutely fine with me. I think doctors sacrifice too much to going to undergrad, take expensive loans for med school, and work 100 hours for a very low wage during their residency. By the time you are done a doctor would be in the mid 30's or older. I know many software engineer with technical degrees making in the 100K range doing java programming. On the contrary, I think doctors and nurses are underpaid for the work that they do.......

On Edit: I want to clarify I am not talking about Beverly Hills Plastic Surgeons and the like. We are talking ordinary doctors.....

[OhioChick]

18. You're correct.

Most General Practioners (as well as those in Internal Medicine and quite often Pediatrics) make right around the 100-130K mark.

[Francine Frensky]

22. well, you can look it up, and lets consider the

case of a research biologist who I know who had to go to medical school, but for longer as doctors only go for two years of classes, but he had to go for four years. Imagine those loans, twice what the normal doc incurs. Then he had to do his post-doc work, for minimal pay, before he could try to find a real job. So he actually incurred more dollars, went to school longer, but makes $80,000 a year now, while the docs start out at $150,000 and move up quickly from there.

It's an urban legend that we have to pay doctors a lot to reimburse them for school costs. Know any other profession where people are paid based on what it cost to educate them?? And think about this simple fact: if you look at the financial statements of a medical school, their number one expense by FAR is: the salary of the doctors who teach the courses. In other words, if you could wave a magic wand and make doctors salaries go down by half, then medical school wouldn't cost so much. That would solve the urban legend problem, right?

[AnneD]

27. One of the things your friend...

should have considered BEFORE he took out those loans was what his income would be. Yes it is worthwhile if he uses it to go into medicine-but dicey if he was going into research. It's like these kids that take out loans to get a Master's in Social Work. Save your money because you won't recoop what you put in it. That is why I don't get the advanced degree in Nursing-I can'r recoop my investment.

I had to take the same prereqs as the med school kids did (and got better grades than a lot of them too)but you don't find me pissing in their wheaties cause they make more than I do. Heck, when I worked at the teaching hospital-the floor nurses hold the interns hands and keep them from killing the patients their first months on the floor.

Maybe you friend should look around as I know research folks that make more. It may entail a move and work in the private sector. Doc's parley their knowlege into a business and become small business men. With risk comes reward. But your answer does give me clues as to why you are so negative toward health care.

[Mend]

28. add this up: 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school,

one year pediatric internship, two years pediatric residency (btw, I was paid a whopping $5000 per year), two years of child development fellowship, two years residency in psychiatry, two years residency in child psychiatry. Tripled-boarded and I don't make $250,000 a year. And I am on call for my practice 24/7 unless I can find another doctor to cover. It has been that way for 30 years plus 20 years on-call for the emergency room. Doesn't come close to the life of a PhD, esp in academics where they are tenured, teach 9 hours a week, have a sabbatical every seven years. The best and brightest no longer want to be doctors because of people such as you....

[AnneD]

29. I had a sad conversation...

with one of the Docs I work with. He said that, had he know what medicine would become-he never would have went into the field. I told him not to feel like the Lone Ranger-I should have gone into buisness. I know Docs that are throwing up their hands and leaving the field before there are replacements trained. They are leaving the medical profession almost as fast as the Nurses. Pull something like outsourcing and the health care system will collapse sooner than it the boomers retire. You can explain it all day long but most folks are clueless about the dire straights that health care is in today.

Pedi doesn't pay like Cardio, and that's the truth, but of all the Docs in all the fields I've work with-Pedi and reconstructive plastics are the nicest. I work as a School Nurse so I have a soft spot in my heart for Pedi medical staff. It really isn't all about the money.

[silverweb]

14. That's pushing it.

While I agree completely that no one should be required by their insurance carrier to leave the US for any kind of medical treatment, I don't think banning the choice for individuals is a good idea, either.

My understanding is that a lot of people go to places like Brazil and India for elective surgeries that wouldn't be covered by their insurance anyway.

That door has to be left open for them.

[diamidue]

24. Tell me you can't just see these guys advertising

on tv in the future - just the way the drug companies do now:

http://www.medsolution.com/

[pokercat999]

26. Nationalize health care on a military model....

problem solved, free health care for all Americans.

While we're at it nationalize car insurance, life insurance and prescription drugs.