Gunman may have planned sex assault at Amish school

[rodeodance]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061003/ts_nm/crime_schools_dc;_ylt=Ar06u8ouW7thX9Qp0Wcydeys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

Gunman may have planned sex assault at Amish school

By Jon Hurdle 1 hour, 18 minutes ago

NICKEL MINES, Penn. (Reuters) - The man who stormed an Amish school and killed five girls had confessed to his wife he molested two girls 20 years ago, and police said he may have planned to sexually abuse his 10 hostages.
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Charles Carl Roberts, a 32-year-old dairy truck driver, was also haunted by the death of his daughter who died 20 minutes after her premature birth nine years ago, police said after examining suicide notes he left before Monday's rampage.

.......

Roberts had planned for a long siege by preparing to barricade himself and his hostages inside the one-room school in rural Lancaster County, about 60 miles west of Philadelphia.

He also had two tubes of sexual lubricant and a set of boards, wire, tape and bolts that could have used to tie up and torment the girls, Commissioner Jeffrey Miller of the Pennsylvania state police told a news conference.

Although there was no evidence of sexual assault, "it's very possible that ... he intended to victimize these children in many ways prior to killing them and killing himself," Miller said.........

[demo dutch]

1. What a pathetic f*ck!

[Canuckistanian]

2. He molested kids when he was 12 years old?

This guy's been seriously disturbed since he was a kid.

[sybylla]

4. I got a USGrant that says someone else showed him how

I've never heard of a kid molesting other kids who wasn't molested himself. I'm also curious why the statement isn't more specific. If he molested 3-year-olds, that's seriously disturbed. If he engaged in consentual "exploration" with kids his own age, that's not so far out of the norm.

I'll wait to condemn him to hell when there are a few more facts.

[progressivebydesign]

7. He molested 3 year olds.

It's been confirmed in the media. He said he molested relatives who were 3 and 5... while he was 12. He was a sick person. And not everyone that molests has been molested, some are just sick on their own account.

[kurth]

3. Good thing he's dead

Too bad for his kids.

[Auntie Bush]

5. Maybe the kids are better off without a Father like that.

Certainly other little girls are better off.

[Bucky]

9. not dead enough

he lived at least one hour too long

[mongo]

6. What a disgusting sick fuck

we must have been....

Death is too good for him.

[Demeter]

8. Why Couldn't He JUst Kill Himself Then And Spare Everyone Else?

This was beyond crazy, right into evil.

[MrPrax]

10. So it was a copy cat shooting...?

If you noticed, the media immediately after the Amish killings ruled this out, where in fact it really does look like it was a copy cat shooting.

Not noted below, but according most co-workers accounts, the PA animal had been acting weird for the past few days, and it would seem that his intentions were the same as the Colorado animal; an elaborate rape-kill fantasy.

Maybe the media should start examining it's role and question is own obsessively sensationalist and worthless 'blow by blow' coverage of some of these incidences. It's not like the intentions of the media are noble or anything.

A pattern in rural school shootings: girls as targets

"..."The predominant pattern in school shootings of the past three decades is that girls are the victims," says Katherine Newman, a Princeton University sociologist whose recent book examines the roots of "rampage" shootings in rural schools.

Dr. Newman has researched 21 school shootings since the 1970s. Though it's impossible to know whether girls were randomly victimized in those cases, she says, "in every case in the US since the early 1970s we do note this pattern" of girls being the majority of victims..."

...

In Bailey, an armed drifter walked into Platte Canyon High School last Wednesday, ordering men out and sexually assaulting some of the six girls he held hostage, shooting one before killing himself. In this week's tragedy in Pennsylvania's bucolic Lancaster County, the gunman ordered boys and adults to leave, bound the 10 girls, and shot them, then himself.

...

The apparent similarities between the Bailey and Nickel Mines shootings - and their close proximity in time - raise experts' concerns about "copycat" attacks.

News media bear some responsibility for this phenomenon, says James Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. This is especially the case when attackers' personalities and grudges are exposed to high-profile public analysis - as when two teenage attackers in the Columbine attack were featured on the cover of a news magazine, he says.

"We've seen with school shootings and postal shootings that the shooters can become role models for others," Dr. Fox says. "While most sympathize with the victims, others empathize with the shooters. It's the publicity they get that turns the shooter into a celebrity that spawns more of them."

CS Monitor

Also,

Montreal might have triggered latest U.S. wave

"...There are bound to be more copycats to come, warned Jared Lewis, a former California police officer who is about to release a book called Profiling the School Shooter.

"The 2006-2007 school year, unfortunately, is going to be the bloodiest school year we've had in the history of school shootings," Mr. Lewis said from his home in Jefferson, Wis. Although a multitude of influences cause an individual to violently act out, the copycat syndrome is at work, he said.

Other recent shootings might just be the trigger they need to set their own plans in motion.

"The school shooter doesn't wake up that morning and say, 'Hey, I'm going to wake up tomorrow and do this,' " Mr. Lewis said.

"We've found from studying school shootings that in all incidents, the shooters think about it at the very least several days, but most often it's weeks, months, and in a few cases, years."

National Post

"...A drifter terrorizing a Colorado school sexually assaults his victims and kills a fleeing teen girl, then himself. A deranged ex-student invades a high school in North Carolina, wounding two. A gunman looking for an old girlfriend bursts into a Vermont elementary school and kills a teacher.

Save for a disturbed teenager killing a principal in a rural Wisconsin school Friday, the recent rash of shootings were done by outsiders going against a decade-long trend of insular school violence committed mostly by students.

``It's a disturbing change,'' said William Lassiter, manager for the Center for the Prevention of School Violence in North Carolina. ``We've never seen anything like this.'..."

JS MercuryNews

[progressivebydesign]

11. I had the displeasure of seeing regular broadcast TV recently.

I totally understand WHY things are getting so violent and out of hand every year. Every single ad for shows and movies were GRAPHICALLY violent, and often sexual in nature (mixed in with violence). Anyone who does not believe that the media influences the violent responses in humans, is denying that advertising is a successful billion dollar business.

Why do all the teen girls this fall want to buy leggings and Pat Benatar boots? Because they dreamed it up on their own? Or perhaps they were influenced by what they see and hear in the media.

America's idea of entertainment is graphic violence, sprinkled with sex. It's no shock to me that things get uglier by the year. What thrill is there to watch people shot and killed? Or to see a woman barely dressed who is a victim of violence as entertainment?

[MrPrax]

61. You know...

Not to sound like some prudish fundie (whose motives are to actually control media), but I have been starting to think there might be some smoke to that fire.

As you point out about visual media; ads, obsessive news coverage, increased sexually charged content across the board, expontential rise and profitability in internet pr0n and contact dating services, might be creating a unknown environment where the convergence of these inputs is a type of sexual crack cocaine that creates the ultimate self-hating addict, who surmises that their only course of treatment is self-destruction and these violent public acts are, to their twisted mind, crys of warning or help to others.

This and the Foley thing have left me kinda depressed actually...very anti-media at the moment.

Very good observation on your part...

[Raine]

12. If his little daughter had lived

I'm sure he would have molested her too. If you molest at 12 it doesn't seem likely you would change with your own child.

[DeepModem Mom]

13. CNN: Police: School killer confessed to molesting family members

CNN: Police: School killer confessed to molesting family members

(CNN) -- Schoolhouse killer Charles Carl Roberts IV said he molested minor family members 20 years ago and was dreaming about molesting again, police said Tuesday....

***

"It's pretty clear to us, based on the actions that he took, that he intended to go into this school," said Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller. "Now we believe it had nothing to do with the Amish but it had to do with his victim (age) range, which was young female students ages 6 to 13. And we believe that he did not intend to come out alive."

Miller said Roberts called his wife Monday morning and said, "'I am not coming home. The police are here.'"

Then Miller said Roberts stated, "'I molested some minor family members, family members that were 3 or 4 years old, 20 years ago.'"

"Roberts mentioned in his suicide note that he was having dreams of molesting again," Miller said....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/amish.shooting/index.html

[valerief]

14. I'm shocked. Not. Thanks for the info. nt

[RamboLiberal]

21. Same here - I just hope this and Colorado

is not bringing these wackos out of the woodwork to commit similar crimes in schools or other places with children. Unfortunately these copycat crimes seem to go in cycles.

[EST]

15. When he was 12?!!?

[aquart]

18. Puberty happens.

And when it happens in an ultra-religious family, or setting?

Since he was probably sure he was going to hell anyway...

[NOLADEM]

36. Has nothing to do with any of that

I used to work with juvenile sex offender teens. Teens that violently raped strangers with or without weapons when they were as young as ten and when the victims were as young as infants.

There are several determining factors that contribute to the likelihood of someone becoming a sex offender.

First and foremost, they 99.99999999999999% of the time were molested themselves, and there was no resolution to their cases, no negative reinforcement to their offender, and most importantly, the victims were not treated at the time of their attack for emotional deprogramming.

Second is a bad familial situation. So, if the child is at risk, is unsupported, and has poor parents, the child will not be supported before or after the incident, making it more likely the child will offend.

Thirdly, the age of the victim is highly correlative to the age of the child's victims at the time of his own attacks, so someone attacked at 10 will when pubescent seek 10-11 year olds.

Religion has nothing at all to do with any of this, unless you are Catholic and more exposed to high risk men in positions of authority. (We saw two cases of this in my time at the center)

Also, this man wasn't Amish or Mennonite. He just lived nearby. I have never heard of an Amish truck driver.

[iverglas]

42. voices of reason

Few and far between hereabouts, but always appreciated.

(By the way, there are Amish truck drivers, the Amish not all being quite as fundamentalist, or pure, as some here seem to think. But that's neither here nor there in this case.)

[NOLADEM]

50. No kidding? Amish Truckdrivers? You learn something everyday. Thanks

:hi:

[iverglas]

51. I plagiarized ;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2540310&mesg_id=2542274

"My Amish uncles and cousins have driven all my life...they are allowed to drive work vehicles. Just depends on the church and the bishop." -- melnjones

Of course, I doubt that women are allowed to drive much of anything. Patriarchy looks the same whether it's in Amish farm country in Pennsylvania or on the streets of Jeddah.

[kestrel91316]

57. Heck, the Beachy Amish are allowed to have cars. Not all

Amish are OLD-ORDER AMISH.

There are also some Mennonite groups that are WAY stricter than most and live basically like the Old-Order Amish. I think they are called Old-Order Mennonites.

Some Amish (but not many) are permitted bicycles.

Every little Amish church district has its own ordnung, or set of unwritten rules about everything from color of buggy tops to curtains in windows to the width of the brim on the men's hats and of course use of electricity or not, community phone or not, and use of tractors (and rubber vs steel tires). It's fascinating.

[sybylla]

44. Thanks for your clarity in this situation

I'm entirely disturbed by the eagerness to condemn this man as pure evil when he is likely the victim of sad circumstances himself. Make no mistake; I don't condone anything that he's done. But blanket condemnations based on only half the facts are not necessary here.

This was a deeply troubling situation and it's clear that the police are still trying to sort it out. Having been seen family members cope the other side of an investigation like this (though thankfully not so serious), I can vouch for the poor communications that happen with the press in the immediate aftermath, the misconceptions it breeds and even the outright untruths and rumors that end up published as fact.

There will be plenty of time to condemn this man in an appropriate fashion after the investigation has concluded.

[aquart]

54. 12 was when he acted out, so I assumed puberty brought it out.

He is not Amish, but since his wife was in a prayer meeting at the time of the murders, I assumed a religious family and background.

Never assume.

[kestrel91316]

58. He might have a Mennonite background. They often live at

the periphery of Amish communities (most Amish who leave, wind up in a Mennonite church instead).

[noonwitch]

19. It happens, and if his family covered it up instead of getting help....

They compounded the problem. 12 year olds who sexually assualt other kids were generally abused themselves-if he had gotten treatment, he may have revealed who abused him and been able to put the cycle to an end.

But incest and sexual abuse are kept secret in most families, until PS gets a call about a 5 year old girl with vd or something like that.

[marshall]

29. And if it wasn't reported

then he also is NOT registered as a sex offender--not the the Amish would have been likely to check the internet. But maybe the company that hired him to pick up their milk would have been able to do a more thorough background check on him.

[LaurenG]

16. 20 years ago he was only a kid?

:shrug:

[aquart]

17. He brought KY Jelly with him.

He tied their feet. Was he still fighting the impulse? Did he kill them to save himself from temptation?

Five girls dead so far.

[allisonthegreat]

20. The whole thing is terrible

And now this k-y jelly thing...There is definite a perverse sickness going on...Really sucks...

[aquart]

26. While his wife was at a prayer meeting, btw.

[951-Riverside]

27. Please tell me you're kidding aquart

:cry:

[aquart]

56. As soon as they mentioned the jelly...

He had bad thoughts, so it was their fault for tempting him.

Why did everyone say he tied their legs? Only their legs?

He went down the row with the gun and each girl knew what he was doing after the first girl.

Selfish prick.

[LostinVA]

37. He had ten eyebolts evenly spaced out in a 2X4 hammered into the wall

THere were initially ten victims. He also was using flex-cuffs, had rope, etc. So... what do YOU think he was going to do with those eyebolts? Ugh.

Thank gods the cops got there. To have had these little girls sexually tortured as well as killed...

[aquart]

55. I don't even know what an eyebolt is.

[LostinVA]

62. It's a bolt you screw into wood that has an eye at the end

You TIE stuff to it. You thread rope through it.

[maxsolomon]

22. the logic escapes me

i feel bad about what i did when i was 12, so instead of seeking help, i'll execute 5 amish girls before killing myself.

[Midlodemocrat]

23. It escapes me as well. I don't get the connection.

I can understand that he saw the little girls as a form of tempation to his sick mind, but why seek them out like that? Why not get help?

And, as far as the molestation from 20 years ago goes, it could have been very innocent child's play. He was only 12.

[zreosumgame]

24. it is possible

that if he passed that area before that he developed sick feelings towards those kids, and since as we all are told over and over it is the GIRLS fault if we guys get aroused, then in the spirit of all religion, of couse they had to die too..

sick world, run by sick fucks.

[kestrel91316]

59. He was a milk truck driver in an Amish farming community. He

had to be doing the rounds to the Amish dairy farms on a daily basis. They pick up once or twice a day. He had to have been very familiar with the neighborhood under the circumstances, and maybe had his eye on this school for quite a while.

[slackmaster]

25. It would have made more sense for him simply to off himself

But we are not talking about a fully rational person here.

[arewenotdemo]

45. Not rational, no. But above and beyond anything else

these types can't bring themselves to do the right thing, which in his case would have been to off himself.

They have to destroy as many other lives as possible. This piece of shit left THREE of his own children behind. And hated God because he lost a FOURTH premature baby!!!

Uh, to me that not only speaks of mental illness, but also of a religious problem as well.

Completely selfish, cowardly scum. Nothing else.

[iverglas]

46. just curious

At what point does a child who is sexually abused become an adult who is "completely selfish, cowardly scum"?

If you doubt that this individual was sexually abused as a child, do a little reading.

"Nothing else?" Like all of us, a great deal else, in fact.

[arewenotdemo]

47. I don't doubt it at all.

I just wouldn't be lighting any candles outside his Death Row appearance should matters have ended differently.

I have ZERO compassion for these sort of cowards. And yes, I believe they are that.

Well, maybe "monsters" would be a better descriptor.

[iverglas]

48. so again

At what point did your compassion cease? Surely you had compassion for him while he was being abused. Surely you had compassion for him when no one came to his aid, either then or ever. Surely you had compassion for him when he lived out his childhood and adolescence submerged in guilt, shame, anger and confusion, as abused children of course do.

I just wonder when it is that a miserable, tortured kid becomes a monster, and when it was that you stopped feeling compassion for him.

When he pulled the trigger? When he opened the schoolhouse door? When he got up that morning? When did he undergo the metamorphosis?

Simplistic, finger-pointing, knee-jerk reactions to extraordinarily complex social and psychological situations really seldom accomplish anything.

[arewenotdemo]

52. I suppose the moment he acts on his dreams or urges or whatever

At that point compassion became useless, if not meaningless.

Up until that point is an entirely different matter. Who knows whether treatment would have prevented the massacre? It may have.

But to be honest, I have a hard time viewing that photo of him and thinking that there existed anything redeeming about him. Anything worth saving.

To me he looks like a simple beast that was probably brainwashed to believe in heaven and hell and a God that wanted him to have however many children he could spawn with a willing, dimwitted religious wife.

[iverglas]

53. interesting point

At that point compassion became useless, if not meaningless.

Pretty much as useless and meaningless as condemnation, a point I often try to make.

To me he looks like a simple beast that was probably brainwashed to believe in heaven and hell and a God that wanted him to have however many children he could spawn with a willing, dimwitted religious wife.

Musta been born that way, I guess.

I have to admit, there are some for whom I do not have compassion. George Bush? Nah. Too much privilege, too much opportunity to overcome whatever awful shit may have happened to him to make him the way he is.

Personal responsibility is an almost impossible line to draw. I try not to lay the blame for what George Bush does at the doorstep of every USAmerican who voted for him, recognizing that many of them are indeed more to be pitied than to be blamed ... but it's hard sometimes.

[goddess40]

30. He probably thought he'd have more time with the Amish

because they are more cut off from the outside world, maybe he thought they wouldn't use a phone to get help.
Poor girls they never had a chance.

[LostinVA]

38. What I thought, too

[kestrel91316]

60. Yep, I think he chose his victims very carefully, knowing they

were more vulnerable than most.

[OhioChick]

28. This guy was a sick ass. n/t

[judaspriestess]

31. Just another Christian from Hell n/t

[cspanlovr]

32. Armchair Shrink: My take:

He molested young relatives 20 years ago. Has been guilt ridden ever since.
His wife had a premature baby, who died within hours of birth. Did he think God was punishing him for his past sins by taking away his own baby? Did he fear molesting his own child? Was God protecting his own child by letting her die?
Was he envious of other religious groups who seemed happy and at peace, while his God was vengeful and punishing?
I have no idea, just throwing it out there.

[rocktivity]

63. DING DING DING! Cspanlovr, you're our grand prize winner!

Did he fear molesting his own child? Was God protecting his own child by letting her die?

That might explain why he killed the children--to his way of thinking, he was mocking God by playing God himself. He "protected" the children by sending them to heaven rather than harm them sexually--and then sent himself to hell.

:headbang:
rocknation

[PRETZEL]

33. I agree it had nothing to do with the Amish directly,

he lived in the area. He more than likely grew up in that area also. I'm wondering if we'll find out soon enough if at one time he (or his family) were Mennonites (same general philosophy but will to a degree use modern technologies).

If he's talking about something that happened 20 yrs ago and those repressed feelings are coming back I'm not sure that he'd do what he did. This was a man who had children in the same age group. If he was reliving something he did to his family members back then wouldn't it have made more sense that it would have been his own children at risk?

[saracat]

34. a pedophile just like Foley!

[Blue_Roses]

35. there's no sense to this

it's just heartbreaking:cry:

[gratuitous]

39. Uh oh, was my wacky thought right?

This had nothing to do with Mr. Roberts' church or his family or living in Pennsylvania, or being a truck driver or wearing glasses?

It was such a wacky thought, and so many folks here were convinced that Mr. Roberts must have done this because he was a Christian that I didn't dream I might have been near the mark.

[iverglas]

40. sorry, posted in wrong place! nt

[iverglas]

41. and the chances that a young adolescent boy

who molests younger children was not a victim of sexual abuse himself are ... slim, shall we say?



http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/nfntsxagrsex_e.html

• Most offenders are not strangers to their victims. In most cases, they are well known to their victims. Approximately 25 percent of offenders are adolescents.

• A recent Canadian study revealed that more than 40 percent of convicted child molesters were sexually abused as children. They tended to choose victims close to the age at which they were first victimized.



Now I'll wait for the chorus of "that's no excuse!" to start ...

[gratuitous]

43. So, would justice dictate . . .

So, when someone is convicted of child molestation, would justice dictate that his or her victims be locked away too?

There's so much we don't understand about this expression of human sexuality (beyond the near-universal reaction of "Ewwwww," which isn't very helpful). I don't know what the answer is, or how to go about rehabilitating sex offenders, but locking them away doesn't seem to be working very well, particularly when these offenders are released (provided they survive incarceration) without any treatment, tracking or follow-up. How do they get re-integrated into their communities? Is it possible for them to be re-integrated? If not, what's the most humane solution? Permanent sequester? Extermination? Something else?

It's long past time for modern society to come to grips with this problem.

[iverglas]

49. well I dunno

So, when someone is convicted of child molestation, would justice dictate that his or her victims be locked away too?

I guess I'd say that when someone is convicted of child sexual abuse, every effort be made to identify, locate and help his/her victims, myself.


There's so much we don't understand about this expression of human sexuality

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't see child sexual abuse as an "expression of human sexuality" any more than I can see forcefeeding someone maggots as an expression of haute cuisine, myself.


As for the rest of what you said, the questions are indeed as yet unanswered. This is one instance in which preventive measures -- treating the victims and doing whatever can be done to reduce their numbers other than just by apprehending and punishing the abusers -- is virtually the only answer, since neither punishment nor treatment seems to accomplish much once the abused becomes the abuser. It is certainly one of the biggest problems and challenges we have.