Kidnapped Fox journalists convert to Islam on video

[hogwyld]

GAZA (Reuters) - Two kidnapped Fox journalists appeared on a new videotape released by their captors on Sunday in the Gaza Strip, in which the reporters said they had converted to Islam, the Fox News Channel said.

Palestinian Interior Minister Saeed Seyam said efforts were under way to secure within hours the release of Fox correspondent Steve Centanni, a 60-year-old American, and New Zealand-born cameraman Olaf Wiig, 36.


http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-08-27T080450Z_01_L24549716_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-GAZA-KIDNAPPINGS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

[CottonBear]

1. I'd say that too if it might get me released if I'd was being held hostage

:(

[Guaranteed]

3. Yeah, but Pat Robertson is going to have to call

for them to be burned at the stake when they get back to the states, now.

[CottonBear]

4. I hadn't considered that. Maybe they can re-convert back if released.

I wonder what their Fox news colleagues think of the conversion? There's some sort of sick irony in the whole situation considering that Fox bashes Islam daily.
:(

[tocqueville]

5. you can never "de-convert" once you are Muslim

or else you get a death fatwa for being an apostate

[CottonBear]

10. Yikes. I wonder if they knew that?

:(

[tocqueville]

11. that's only fair and balanced

I love it

[CottonBear]

117. You are so bad. I love it too!

:spank: :evilgrin:

[Yupster]

105. Would it make any difference?

You've seen other kidnap victims having their heads sawed off on TV, and the kidnappers tell you to read this. What are you going to do?

[frankieT]

17. in France a lot of muslims get baptized at the church

in order to marry their french catholic brides at the church.
they don't give a damn about your hypothetical fatwas !

these "fatwas" occurs in very traditionalist areas of the muslim world, and they have some value only for people trusting the word of the scholar who launched it.
i'm quite sure that these journalists will find a scholar who will nullify this forced conversion.

get real, a lot of muslims drink alcohol, eat pork, have sex before marriage, they are not punished for that, the islamic world is not the threatening homogeneous entity islamophobic experts want to picture, it's made of real people with many differences.

[tocqueville]

23. you are still wrong and know quite little about France

#1 In France you don't marry at Church unless you want to as a "plus". A religious marriage as NO legal value whatsosever. So Muslims that want to marry a non Muslim can do it at the local city hall and that what happens. Your example has nothing to with reality. Catholic brides ? RFLMAO

#2 There is no hierarchy in Islam. So a scholar cannot "nullify" another. What he says can be countered by another. And if one put a death fatwa on them, the followers of that fatwa are perfectly in their "legal" right. The other one can complain.

In Islam, apostasy is called "ridda" ("turning back") and it is considered by Muslims to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents that rejects Islam is called a "murtad fitri" (natural apostate), and a person that converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a "murtad milli" (apostate from the community).

The question of the penalties imposed in Islam (i.e. in the Qur'an or under shariah law) for apostasy is a highly controversial topic that is passionately debated by various scholars. On this basis, according to most scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time given to him/her by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is the death penalty, or, for women, life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by an extremely small minority of modern Muslim scholars (eg Hasan al-Turabi), who argues that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general<3>. These scholars argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quote as insufficient confirmation of harsh punishment; they regard apostasy as a serious crime, but undeserving of the death penalty. Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania. Similarly, blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan.

The hadith "Whosoever changes his religion, Kill Him", has been used both by supporters of the death penalty as well as critics of Islam. Islamic apologists point out it is important to understand the hadith in proper historical context. The order was at a time when the nascient Muslim community in Medina was fighting for its very life, and there were many schemes, by which the enemies of Islam would try to entice rebellion and discord within the community. <4>. Clearly any defection would have serious consequences for the Muslims, and the hadith may well be about treason, rather than just apostasy. It must also be pointed out that under the terms of the Treaty of Hudaibiyah, any Muslim who returned to Mecca was not to be returned, terms which the Prophet accepted. Despite this historical point Islamic law as currently practiced does not allow the freedom for the individual to choose one's religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostate

#3 it's true that the Islamic world is not monolithic. But the "Muslims" who drink alcohol and eat pork are mostly (only?) found in European countries and consider themselves as secular. My friend Rafik, 23 yo who lives next door had to flee "secular" Algeria under death threat because his parents were atheists and the family was granted asylum in France.

In the case of the Fox journalists there always will be Muslims that consider them as apostates if they denounce their conversion. If I were them I'll keep quiet and avoid to travel back to the ME.

[frankieT]

28. I live in France and i've been to different muslim countries

1 : I know that the religious marriage is not mandatory, but i met with a lot of mixed couples where the muslim guy went to church to please the family of the bride.

2 : I guess you draw your knowledge about Islam from the plethora of alarming books written after 9/11 by right-wing self-proclaimed orientalists who wanted to open our eyes about the "true nature" of Islam. They often don't speak arabic and build their cases using the very same medieval out-dated and forgotten interpretations carefully chosen by the fundamentalists. I'm often surprised these days to read islamophobic right-wingers lecturing everyone (including muslims) about the true rules of Islam ! In my opinion, it is as pointless as the selective translation work done by MEMRI, the case built against jews by anti-semites using excerpts from the Talmud or the anti-Christian talk in muslim countries based on the crusader-wannabee attitude of christian fundamentalists in US.

3 : you prove here your total ignorance of the muslim world. Muslims can buy all the alcohol they want in North Africa, and some of them convert to Christan faith thank to evangelical missionaries. I drank alcohol with regular muslim folks in Egypt, Lebanon & Turkey and was almost thrown out of houses in Central Asia for declining vodka. I heard also that ecstasy use is widespread in Lebanon and Iran. and let's not talk about the hypocrites saudis drinking whiskey, snorting cocaine with prostitutes in Lebanon, Egypt and European countries.
If you want to have a real image of the muslim world, not a doctored and biased by extremists of all kinds, go travel a little in these countries, you will discover why hundreds of millions of muslims are not blood-thirsty terrorists.

[tocqueville]

34. OK once again

1 : exceptions don't make the rule. You presented it as if it was a common procedure. It isn't. When religion starts to play a REAL role in either French Catholic or Muslims life, things are not that easy. What you describe is cool stuff that happens.

2 : what I know of Islam has nothing to do with 9/11. I am French and live in France and immigrants or French from Arab origins are living around me and I grew up with "them". I can read Wikipedia or other Encyclopedias and watch many of the French TV shows that present and discuss Islam the way it is : the fundamentalist part and the "normal" part. But the problem is that the "normal" part hasn't broken its old demons, that's why the fundies win terrain (aided by the US horrible policies and prejudices). Islam has not known any "Enlightment" maybe with the exception of Turkey. It's true that it has "relaxed" due to colonisation, but if you look around there are NO Islamic countries with a real occidental approach to religion (with the exception of Turkey, but with a recent blatant setback). Most of the Islamic countries are not like Tunisia or Lebanon or to a certain extent Egypt. Some have been "secularised" by dictators like Saddam and Assad (Syria) but that's about all. Palestine lost its secular mark with the death of Arafat. The rest has still profound marks of a very traditional culture. And some are worse than others. Nothing to be denied.

3 : you quote exceptions again, the same I quoted above. Try to be OPENLY gay and OPENLY drink booze or for a woman to go aout alone and go swimming in bikini (except for some secluded resorts) in Morocco, Mauretania, Algeria (comming out of a religious war that killed hundreds of thousands), Lybia, Syria, Iraq, all Gulf States, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangla Desh, Indonesia and Malaysia, not to forget Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia etc... to make a long list short and see how long you live.

4 : it has nothing to do with prejudices : it's reality. Reality is that the "free behaviours" you name don't happen or very rarely or in secret. That's why the local clerics don't have to go around brandishing fatwas.

[frankieT]

51. test

[frankieT]

53. your position changed slightly it's not so bad

1 : sure, exceptions don't make the rule, but it works both ways. You started presenting the "fatwa" stuff as if it was common business in muslim world, you're totally wrong on this. I can assure you that mixed marriages, homosexuality, booze drinking, etc happens more often than fatwas.

2 : I live in France too and know that the standards of journalism (and even more in crappy TV shows) are very low especially when it comes to foreign matters. Not having sinister jokes like Fox News doesn't make journalism in France that much informed and balanced.
The "enlightenment" of Turkey came from the secular modernizing policies of Ata-Turk, not from colonization. And if colonization played a big role in introducing "western behaviors" in the muslim world , you still know little about it: alcohol drinking was common since the times of Muhammad, and you can read nice poetry about wine and homosexuality from the times of the caliphates.
After centuries of "enlightenment" the muslim world lost its influence and got stuck in old-fashioned traditions (with a lot of variations depending on areas). Nowadays muslims are caught in a vacuum between these traditions and the aggressive change forced upon them by western diktats. You're picturing the gay and bikini stuff as if it is mandatory by our UNIVERSAL values to follow these new habits. Please be patient, and let the muslims sort this out to find THEIR way to modernize their societies. Your lack of historical perspective is astonishing, you seem to forget that homosexuality was a crime in France until the early seventies, that women gained the voting rights in 1945 and that families structures are quite similar in Southern Europe and northern Africa.

[frankieT]

54. your position changed slightly it's not so bad (#2)

There is something you must understand, it is the fact that islamic extremism is not a religious movement but 100% political. It draws its strength from wahabbi money, violent US/Israel policies in middle east (oil and geo-strategic driven), and the forced march to "modernization".
Most of the jihadists have little religious education, being illiterate or recently converted to fanatical speeches touching their identity problems.
If a peaceful but quite traditional muslim hear you lecturing him about how better are mini-skirts and cable porn, don't be surprised if he reacts with defiance. When you say that the muslim world hasn't broken its old demons you're quite right, but the western world hasn't broken its imperialist post-colonialist demons too.

3 : So you never went to muslim countries but you know for sure how is the situation there...
I've been to Algeria a couple of years ago, and saw a lot of bars in every city even in remote villages. As for the beach, I saw there a lot of girls wearing bikinis. Hey but you're right !! still no topless monokinis as we see in the french riviera, nor gay-prides in the streets of Algiers (despite a significant number of gay hookers), please forgive them for being so backward and spare their lives in your next civilizing bombing campaign :sarcasm:

[tocqueville]

92. answer to both posts

There is plenty of VERY GOOD information and debate about what's going on in the Muslim world on French TV (not mentioning other media) but sadly at hours when a lot of people don't watch, that is to say very late evening and night (shows like "culture et dépendances") on the public channels 2 an 3 or daytime and early evening on channel 5/Arte. I have the privilege to watch TV whenever I want, since I work at home, but the viewer average for those shows is around 1 million viewers which is not that bad for a country where a "top show" is viewed by 10 millions.

I know that it the way you say in Algeria, but it's a new tendency since the FIS has been dismantled. Besides Algeria has always claimed to be secular since the independence (notice that the FIS was the precursor of Al Quaeda and the first to try to crash a plane on a city and to start a bomb campaign abroad - the cooperation between the French and the Algerians could have taught the Bush administration how to fight terror without invading a country, but...)

But I don't understand how you can accuse me of "lack of historical perspective" etc... My post wasn't about to blame the west for its shortcomings - I could post "books" about that. I only discussed the fact that the "backwardness" in the Muslim world is still a big problem and used by fanatics (that religion is used for political purposes, there is no disagreement about and nothing new either). Be frank, the fact that you point out the dark side doesn't turn you into a bigot more than blaming Bush and Evangelicals turns you into an "antiamerican" or recently in blaming Israel for its policies or even worse dubious roots turns you into an anti-semite.

and my position hasn't "changed", it has become more explicit...

[frankieT]

103. "Culture et dependances" is not so bad

but only regarding the specifically french issues. I was speaking earlier of the plethora of self-proclaimed specialists of Islam, this show is no different from others, it is mainly based on alarming books written by them about the "clash of civilizations". Frankly, viewers of these shows want to hear about this kind of BS to give some ground to their fears.
I didn't see a lot of real specialists of the question. The only muslim specialist we see in french TV shows is Malek Chebel, because when you have a show titled "Is Islam trying to destroy the West?" you need at least ONE good looking muslim telling you that muslims are not so blood-thirsty when you have TEN "european" guests taking sourates from the Koran to show us how evil they are.
Even Max Gallo the historian-writer wrote a book about the dangers of Islam, it is ridiculous.
Do you think that similar debates held in China on a supposed "french problem" with 95% self-proclaimed specialists of France (but barely speaking french) will give chinese an accurate vision of what is France ? Do you remember how american MSM pictured the riots last year in Paris suburbs ? It was like civil war was raging everywhere, and France is not so distant from US culturally speaking.
Do you see how US joe-6-pack imagine France and how his equivalent in France see US ? You can multiply this lack of mutual understanding 10 or 100 times to get an idea of the distance between the West and the muslim world.

My point is that you can't have a realistic picture of the situation in these countries if you keep watching and listening to the mainstream media. It's plain and simple: they don't know very much. In US, even the mighty state department have no clue about the real nature of these cultures, I'm no surprised to see them failing in Iraq. It's the same colonial arrogance again and again: why bother trying to know "really" who are the people you're trying to subdue ? If you want to know how "really" people live in these countries, learn a little arabic and travel there, you cannot trust MSM to do this work.

Regarding Algeria, having been there I'm quite familiar with the situation on the ground with the FIS, GIA and all kinds of salafists guerrillas: even during the "black years" of the war, people were living (ie drinking and partying). How can you think that a political turn in the ballots can change everything from day to light ? Arafat died, Hamas won, then OK now everyone in Gaza is a wannabe Al-Qaeda suicide bomber. These people have different cultures but they are still human beings like you and me. It's obvious but sometimes we need to remind this basic fact.

I don't know really what is your real position, I reacted first to your bold assumption that an effective death fatwa will fall on these journalists as soon they will deny their conversion.

[DemonFighterLives]

35. Thanks for the informaion

The Muslims that I know are not blood thirsty, far as I know.
:dem:

[tocqueville]

38. NONE of the muslims I know are" blood thirsty"

my wife is American and has never been harassed and have several muslim friends.

I just pointed out that if some clerics want to put a fatwa on the Fox guys, they can do it, and some probably will. They don't have to be representative, they can just quote the "right" parts of the Qoran.

quoting blatant exceptions to a pattern isn't helping the discussion.

[Totallybushed]

42. Yet it

is the deadly minority, not the apathetic majority, that is the real problem. In the Muslim world as in the United States.

[DemonFighterLives]

46. I liked you information as well

I just don't think the media and the Christians are giving the full story. Blanket accusations against Muslims that want to push Israel into the sea, etc.

As far as these Foz guys are concerned, I'm sure Fox will milk it for all the hatred it can.

[CJCRANE]

31. Gimme a break.

I'm half muslim, half catholic. I lived in a muslim country and never went to a mosque and never prayed. I knew gay people and alcoholics, an unmarried mother etc etc. Just like in some places in the West, life isn't easy if you're gay or an unmarried mother etc but generally people get on with things. My family still loved me for who I am, maybe the religious ones would say an extra prayer for me (I guess) but they never looked down on me or scolded me. Mercy and compassion are big parts of Islam too, plus most of the billion muslims in the world aren't islamic scholars, they're just ordinary people.

on edit: most of my muslims cousins have married europeans, the most recent one had a muslim wedding in their own country and then a church wedding in France.

[tocqueville]

36. Lebanese ? Turk ?

you are an exception. Anyway MOST European North-Africans or "Arabs" are secular, specially the 2nd generation.

this story above of "Muslims" marrying "Catholics" in France is preposterous, specially the way it was presented.
Of course there are plenty of mixed couples. But religion has little to do with it. The guy doesn't need to go to church and the bride to the mosk. Fucking expensive too.

[CJCRANE]

39. East Africa...

I'm no expert on muslim countries or France - I only have anecdotal evidence from my very limited personal experience.

But like everybody else I generalise from that. My main point is that in all countries people are quite diverse, there are differences in race, class, education, rural/urban etc etc. There is no set definition of a "muslim".

Having said that, I sometimes have prejudices against people from certain muslim countries, usually ones I've never been to. I realised that usually those prejudices come from the MSM, so I fight against them by reminding myself that I don't know anyone from those countries nor have I ever been to them so am not in a position to make an accurate judgement.

If I give a reverse example - imagine people who get their image of America from al-Jazeera, TV cop shows, Jerry Springer and Hollywood action and horror films...

[tocqueville]

94. sounds like you are a Comorian, Mauritian ?

no you would be nearer the French culture sphere... maybe Eritrea/Ethiopia ? OK never mind... I agree with your statement. I just didn't understand why a post of the more or less "theoretical" danger that those two guys are
now exposed to was so controversial. Remember Salman Rushdie. The guy has still a death fatwah on his head for a book based on tales that are quite common in the Muslim world...

[CJCRANE]

95. I'm not denying there

are real muslim fundamentalists, kidnappers and terrorists etc. There's plenty of them.

And conversely this also means that Karl Rove doesn't control every little event that happens in the world to spin to his benefit.

However...there are occasionally events where my DU sixth sense tells me there has been some kind of manipulation going on that is beneficial to the neocon PR/fear machine. This is one of them.

[tocqueville]

100. I don't know, but how are they going to explain these statements to Rush ?

"I just hope that this never scares a single journalist from coming to Gaza," Centanni said.

"Do not be discouraged, come and tell the story, it's a wonderful story."

Wiig echoed the sentiment. "That would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine and especially for the people of Gaza.... you guys need us on the streets and you need people to tell your story," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060827/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazamedia;_ylt=AoK0GiL4TdOaQNsJptIqLQuBzdAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[CJCRANE]

101. If it was a black op

the journalists aren't in on it, they're just pawns.

Whatever it was I'm glad they've come out of it unfazed and still eager to do their jobs (even if they do work for Fox News!)

[Totallybushed]

120. Explain something, if you don't mind.

How can you be half Muslim, half Catholic? One parent may have been one, and one the other, but both Islam, and Christianity, are belief systems, and they are totally incompatible with each other. You can be one, or the other, or neither, but you can't be both at the same time. It simply isn't possible, logically.

[CJCRANE]

32. I lived

in a muslim country and knew a guy who converted from Islam to Christianity. Changed his name from Abdul to Roderick.

Some people thought he was a bit strange, but most didn't give a sh*t.

[TankLV]

111. ahhh - another example of how "wonderful" islam is!

Does anybody else know if this claim is bullshit?!?!

I never heard of this before...

[JI7]

13. do you think they wanted to "convert" ?

they did whatever the fuck they felt they had to in order to survive and get released.

[Totallybushed]

40. You don't really

think that they will practice Islam now that they are back in a civilized area, do you?

They converted under threat of death, which is no conversion at all.

[Zhade]

91. Are you equating Islam with a lack of civilization?

If so, that's a pretty backward view.

[Totallybushed]

118. Not at all.

Cry "racism". That's the way someone who has lost the argument continues it.

However, the particular group, people, whatever, that conducted, planned, enabled, or knew about the kidnapping can never be mistaken for "civilized" by anyone who is.

[lumpy]

99. Whoa, what part of the world do you

come from? What is your definition of 'civilized'? Yikes! what a faux pas!

[Totallybushed]

119. Well, I come

from the United States, which despite its many faults, does not condone kidnapping.

OK, if you think that these kidnappers are civilized men, or women, as the case may be, I don't see that we have common ground to hold a discussion over.

A "civilized" part of the world is one where a war is not raging.

[Ian David]

108. They threatened to force them to have phonesex with Bill O'Reilly. n/t

[Yupster]

104. What does Pat Robertson have to do with this?

Islamic extremists kidnap two journalists and you attack Pat Robertson? What an odd response.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. That's a new one...

I can't ever recall an incident in which the hostage, as a condition of release, was forced to convert to a different religion.:crazy:

[PittPoliSci]

73. the crusades?

went on from the muslims and the christians.

not a real modern thing...

[greyl]

6. Religion and baseless faith. Gotta love it. nt

[izzie]

7. Well lets hope they were leaning to wards this before

Or we would think that these people are into being cult members. One could hardly believe one could change their beliefs that fast.

[Totallybushed]

43. Gun.

Pointed at head. Sure you would mouth the words, "There is no god but allah, and mohammed is his prophet", or whatever it is they had to say.

But would you be converted in your heart. Of course you wouldn't. You would be cursing mohammed, allah, and your captors in your heart, and you would be right.

At least as concerned the incident.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. Allah means God

You would be right to curse God in your heart? :shrug:

You would be cursing mohammed, allah, and your captors in your heart, and you would be right.

[Totallybushed]

57. No, not God.

If you believe in God, but Allah, which may mean "God", but not to you. Because you are not a Muslim, despite what you may have had to say in dire circumstances.

And maybe this "allah" is not the same Allah that peaceful (the vast majority) of muslims worship. Maybe this allah is the same god that, say Christian Identity types worship, i.e., a demon from Hell.

Or maybe all religion is bogus, and it doesn't matter whether you curse a myth, or not. Or maybe not.

I'm just saying that in my opinion, you owe no respect to a god you were forced to acknowledge by war criminals of the type that kidnapped these two. If you do, well, it's a free country (they say).

[CJCRANE]

59. "There is no compulsion in religion"

is in the Koran. This whole convert at gunpoint thing is probably a set up of some kind.

It serves no useful purpose in Palestinian politics.

[Totallybushed]

61. No compulsion

in religion? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[CJCRANE]

62. i.e. it should be a choice, is the point...nt

[Totallybushed]

63. Yes, you are right.

The choice to convert, or be killed.

No compulsion in that. I can see it now.

[CJCRANE]

65. I think this is a set up, personally..nt

[Totallybushed]

66. You are certainly entitled to

your opinion.

I can see your tin foil hat, but not your evidence.

Still, stranger things have happened, but I require something more than begging the question.

[CJCRANE]

67. I'm just

a part-time DUer, not a full-time journalist, politician or researcher so don't have time to make citations etc.

It's just from years of reading DU and following the news cycle and looking behind the news, you get a feel for what might really be happening. Sometimes the speculations turn out to be true, sometimes false but most of the time we never know because the news cycle moves on.

However, it's not beyond the powers of the neocons to manipulate events of whatever scale to suit their ends. Just consider their billion dollar PR budget not to mention the 8-billion dollars that went missing in Iraq and the trillion dollar "black-hole" at the Pentagon. Then there's Iran/Contra, funding of the Mujahideen, the "fix" in Florida 2000, Ohio 2004, lies about 9/11, WMD, Pat Tillman, Jessica Lynch, Katrina, Abramoff, Plame, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo etc etc.

This is not proof of anything in this case but just an illustration that things can and will be manipulated behind the scenes so it's always best not to take things at face value.

Yesterday's conspiracy theory is today's scandal and tomorrow's fishwrap.

on edit: added Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch as examples of individual stories that have been manipulated.

[Totallybushed]

85. Well, these things might

really be happening. It's just that I prefer to have evidence before speculating. What is that law of economics that we all studied in economics, Gresham's Law? It states that bad money drives good money out of circulation.

I would hypothesize that a similar phenomenon occurs in news reporting and journalism. BAd stories drive out good, as people say, "Well, it might have happened". Then it is, "As everybody knows", and the lie is established as a fact. How does the old saying go, "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting its boots on"?

So my own opinion, for what little it might be worth, is that if you don't have some facts, you shouldn't speculate. That would shut down Faux News, for instance, faster than any other action, although there wouldn't be near as many posts on DU, either. Both are wrong, IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

[izzie]

106. Right on and it is odd they do not do this more.

I wonder why they do not? Heck look at all the 'new' Christians we have in this country daily. And many class that the point that makes them once more 'good' people. Right now a good many seem to be running our Govt. or is that to dark?

[izzie]

107. Some times it is to much for an optimist to face this--------

another day of Bush and co.

[Lenore]

8. I hope you don't mind a self gratuitous link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x146189

My post about this story, based on what some Hebrew boards were reporting, before it made the English news.

[CottonBear]

9. CNN International just now announced their release (5:35 AM EST)

They are at a hotel.

[CottonBear]

12. They were just shown live on TV running into the beachfront hotel in Gaza.

I'm sure they are incredibly glad to be alive and free at this point.

[hogwyld]

15. I'm glad they're free

I just wish would could have forced a swap, and made them take o'lielly, oxyman, hannity, and the hearltess bitch coulter!

[CottonBear]

116. Oh my!

:spank:

[intaglio]

14. What's so different about this

from the forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne?

Mind you you gotta love the Media savvy Hezbollah guy who put this together!

[Totallybushed]

44. The difference is

that Charlemagne lived over a thousand years ago.

This happened last week.

[keopeli]

16. St. Peter betrayed Jesus by denying him as well.

Don't get me wrong. I don't blame or judge the journalists for any action they take while being held captive.

I'm just drawing an obvious parallel. Assuming the journalists being held hostage are Christians, they are in very good company.

Even after pledging never to deny him, that same day Peter, Jesus' most beloved friend, denied knowing him as many as 3 seperate times out of fear for his life. Matthew 26:69-74, Mark 14:66-72, Luke 22:56-58, John 18:25-27.

I hope the journalists are set free. Sadly, I also have to assume that it is possible this is all a political ruse, as so much news is these days.

It's a sad story any way you look at it.

[Briar]

18. These journalists

were hardly Christian disciples! Or does Fox require that of its staff?

[keopeli]

19. I have no idea what their faith is, if they have any.

That's why I said "assuming they are Christians"

The parallel remains pertinent because it is about being cooerced to make a statement of faith/association.

I also don't know if Fox requires their staff to be Christian. I would assume they do not, just because of the law. But, it wouldn't surprise me either.

[Brian Stevens]

24. Journalists???? nt

[Mika]

20. So, they lied/faked it. What else is new for Faux reporters? n/t

[nodehopper]

41. how is this different from Jill Carroll saying what she had to

in order to not be killed, and then recanting it?

I am no bigger fan of Faux than you are, but let's not single them out for such behavior in such circumstances.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

21. They were also forced to criticize our foreign policy

That is what this reporter on Fox is saying. I am glad they were free but I bet we never find out who kidnapped them. There have been some others that also got kidnapped and released but they were ones who had been writing things that were not really in favor of the war. But since they have been released they don't say much in public any more but Fox is saying that these 2 are going to keep reporting.

[Brian Stevens]

22. Here is my theory-

I believe the captors KNEW that Centanni and Wiig work for Fox from the get go.

But anyways, I am sorta glad they were released and well. Let that be a lesson to you, Fox News. Do not bring your right wing ilk there (or anywhere) or else.

[robcon]

25. Great news

Their release is cause for celebration.

[Deja Q]

27. That is also very true.

Just think, if we all get kidnapped, we can all convert to Islam and the war is over! :woohoo:

[TankLV]

114. Sorry, but I won't be celebrating. They are working for and supporting or

contributing to the "rape" of freedom and democracy in this country and the world by FOX and it's co-conspirators.

Just like working for the NAZI's.

There BILLIONS of persons who are in line ahead of these FOX stooges that deserve any ounce of "compassion" and "concern".

FOX is one of the prime reasons that we are in the horrible situation we find ourselves in for these past 10 years or so.

So spare me if I fail to spend my energy on these two culprits in the damage to my country and the world...

[Deja Q]

26. Released, but who's gonna track them? And more interestingly,

The US isn't the only country that keeps tabs on their own people...

And more interestingly, won't the FOX reporters be treated like any other American who has converted to Islam?

:hide:

[CJCRANE]

29. This is a perfect story for Fox News -

it fits all their preconceived notions of Islam to a T. Strange that Palestinian kidnappers have never held journalists for this long before, nor made strange demands affecting America nor converted their captives to Islam before.

[Brian Stevens]

30. Revert to my theory post

You pointed out some stuff that makes it more evident to me. :)

[DemonFighterLives]

33. I can't help but smell something fishy as well

Fox-terror all the time.
I suspect now Fox will convert their attitude that all Muslims are bad- I mean after the good treatment and release and all. :silly:

Fox though will probably play it for all it's worth.

[Totallybushed]

45. This is

all a plot by Faux News to bump up ratings??? Or advance the * agenda? LOL! That's really jamming the tin foil hat down on tight.

[rocktivity]

49. Fox News need not have been "in on it"

If this was in reality some kind of deep undercover black ops, they would be just as much in the dark as anyone else. Remember those British soliders who were jailed for shooting Iraqi police and civilians while dressed as Arabs? Their missions was to make it look like the work of "insurgents!"

:headbang:
rocknation

[Totallybushed]

58. Maybe, but

it seems like a pretty big 'if' to me.

[CJCRANE]

50. It's an unknown group

asking for something that's never been asked before by a Palestinian group, kept the journalists longer than ever been kept by Palestinian kidnappers and converted them to Islam which Palestinian groups have never done before.

How much do you think it costs to hire a couple of heavies in the Palestinian territories?

And if you don't think that all kinds of black ops and psyops go on all round the world...then I got a port to sell you...and some arms to sell to Iran.

[Totallybushed]

60. OK, but

that is not evidence of any kind.

Palestinians are so brain-dead and tradition bound that they can't make a new demand? I seem to have a better opinion of their abilities than you do. An unknown group, never previously heard of before? Everybody's got to start somewhere. This doesn't even imply a black-ops by the USA or its allies. It is however, definitely a black-op by some palestinian group.

If this is the level of evidence that you deem sufficient to don your tin foil hat...?

[CJCRANE]

64. It's just a hunch.

I don't say I 100% believe this, it's just that I look at who benefits and how the story plays out in the media.

I've read up a lot of stuff about 9/11, 7/7 and about double-agents and informers/infiltrators in terror groups.

Generally terror groups do things related to their own local politics and with defined goals that benefit them. Shadowy groups like al-Qaeda and its affiliates tend to often do things that benefit neocon propaganda and policies and have no beneficial impact for muslims whatsoever. Think of the idiots in the "Miami 7" but on a larger scale.

[Totallybushed]

86. "Shadowy groups"??

Generally terror groups do things related to their own local politics and with defined goals that benefit them. Shadowy groups like al-Qaeda and its affiliates tend to often do things that benefit neocon propaganda and policies and have no beneficial impact for muslims whatsoever.

Who are you or I to determine what benefits these groups think they are getting for their murderous, hateful, and racist acts?

[CJCRANE]

97. There's plenty of research

about terrorists, suicide bombers, occupation etc.

If you think that al-Qaeda is a straight-up, run-of-the-mill terrorist group, riddle me this:

On 9/11, 19 hijackers (15 from Saudi Arabia, 2 from UAE, 1 from Egypt, 1 from Lebanon) attacked America. The planning for 9/11 was apparently done in Pakistan and the funds for the operation transferred from Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia.(All of these countries are allies and/or business partners of B*shco).

Bin Laden's primary demand was to remove US troops from Saudi Arabia. Which B*sh subsequently did.

So, what are we doing in Iraq again?

[Totallybushed]

109. Don't ask me

to defend Bush's decision to attack Iraq.

Still, this isn't evidence that the kidnappers were involved with Israel.

[CJCRANE]

112. I never said anything about Israel

that was another poster.

[Totallybushed]

113. Alrighty then,

it's no evidence that the Bushco regime was involved in the kidnappings, either. Not that I would put it past them, but they either actually did, or they actually didn't.

[IChing]

69. "musta'ribeen", i.e., "those who appear to be Arabs".

it is very likely that the kidnappers are working for the Israeli internal intelligence agency - Shabak - (which would explain why the Fox employees cannot be found in tiny Gaza), but the question remains as to how exactly agents of the state of Israel are able to successfully pass themselves off as Arabs.


I will let Rima Merriman, a Palestinian American author living in the Palestinian town of Ramallah explain:

"With a cadre of well-trained, Arabic-speaking Israeli informants who are indistinguishable physically from the Palestinian population, Shabak has little problem gathering intelligence on a people whose every movement is regulated by hundreds of check points and by total Israeli control on their borders. These infiltrators prey on Arab innate hospitality and friendliness. The Palestinians call them "musta'ribeen", i.e., "those who appear to be Arabs". Palestinians are not surprised when someone, somewhere comes up to them and says: Got you!"

[Totallybushed]

87. Evidence,

evidence, evidence.

You have avsolutely NO evidence for your fallacious assetation that it is likely the kidnappers are working for the Israelis. NONE

[IChing]

93. Agreed, and you have no proof that they weren't either n/t

[Totallybushed]

110. I dond't need any proof.

You are making the assertion. It's up to you to prove it.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radioactive]

75. Kidnappers are not very bright

I mean all this kidnapping has done is made journalists afraid to report in Gaza now.

[Rose Siding]

37. Will the wingers be as merciless as they were about Jill Carroll's tapes?

Fox news was rabid with speculation about where her loyalties lay after she was shown to be compliant on tapes made by her captors. I'm CERTAIN these two will receive the same lack of respect. /sarcasm

[Kingshakabobo]

48. Does this mean Fox talking-heads will advocate separate airport....

.....security lines for these journalists now that they are "Moslems"?

[superconnected]

52. The problem with this

is the fundys live in fear that the muslims are going to make them convert or kill them.
bin laden and no other group has publically said "convert or we'll kill you" to America. But, now the fundys can use this as justification for their fear.

[CJCRANE]

55. That's why it seems so convenient

especially given it was Fox News reporters. It just reinforces the "islamo-fascism" meme.

On edit: It also reinforces the "we've got to kill them before they kill us" meme. Very useful in the run-up to the attack on Iran. This kidnapping served no useful political purpose for Palestinians.

[area51]

56. Faux "news"

As soon as these men are released, Faux "news" is going to fire them for converting, since they hate muslims.

[TupperHappy]

68. What a wonderful example of the practices of the "Religion of Peace"

:sarcasm:

Forced conversion at gunpoint. :eyes:

I can't say anything else, else I'll puke.

(Actually, I will, before anyone else says it. Yes, Christianity has had plenty of similar incidents in the past, and it was just as wrong and perverted then as this is now. Who do these a$$holes think they are? Most Muslims will likely look on this and shake their heads. But I've yet to hear any real outrage from the CAIR types, the self-appointed leadership groups. But maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, and for just right now, I really don't want to, either.)

[CJCRANE]

71. It's just media hype.

It's one guy but now the neocons have their "they want to convert us or kill us all" meme satisfied.

It's like someone saying that Americans want to kill and torture all muslims using Abu Ghraib as evidence.

[CJCRANE]

70. Always ask "who benefits"?

What has this little episode done for the Palestinian cause?

Nothing.

It has only helped the neocons.

Just like their Saudi buddies helped them on 9/11. Nothing is beyond their manipulation.

[gully]

72. Remember OBL's threat to the US is that we can save ourselves if we

convert to Islam.

"Praise Allah!" is all I have to say about that. ;-)

[IChing]

76. No I don't. Care to find the speech where he said that?

I looked and couldn't find it. HERE IS A LINK

http://www.perfect.co.uk/2004/05/the-speeches-of-osama-bin-laden

edited to give link to speeches.

[gully]

79. CNN reported it in their "footsteps of bin laden" special.

Here is a snip where he says Bush can save himself by converting.

Call to convert
Elsewhere in the tape - reported but not aired by Aljazeera - al-Zawahiri called on Bush to convert to Islam, telling him that if he did so he would "become a brother in the faith and God will forgive you your sins".

I can't find a link to confirm CNN's reporting, but they claim it was in a speech he gave threatening more attacks.

[wtmusic]

77. Curious

do you have a link for that?

[gully]

78. It was in the CNN special the other evening.

And apparently it was said on video tape??

OBL got "permission" to kill 10 million americans from clerics - and made a statement to the American people that we could save ourselves by converting to Islam.

I'll check for a link.

On edit, I can't find a link, people will have to try to catch the CNN program.

[IChing]

80. Good luck on finding that statement plus the new one about

clerics giving him permission to kill 10 million americans.

I gave you a link on the speeches.

[gully]

81. Here you go. And it was "the blind cleric" I believe who gave permission.

Didn't take much "luck" just a bit of google know how.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

snip from OBL's "Letter to America."

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

Your tone implies that you feel I'm "making shit up?"

[gully]

82. And here's more on "permission to kill 10 million americans."

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-26,GGGL:en&q=osama+permission+to+kill+10+million+americans

Choose a link to your liking above.

Here's a link to CNN on the subject:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/22/amanpour.binladen/index.html

Snip:

Michael Scheuer, who once headed the CIA's bin Laden unit, says bin Laden has been given permission by a young cleric in Saudi Arabia authorizing al Qaeda to "use nuclear weapons against the United States ... capping the casualties at 10 million."

"He's had an approval, a religious approval for 10 million deaths?" I asked him.

"Yes," Scheuer responded.

Working on the "CNN Presents" documentary, "In the Footsteps of bin Laden," we traced bin Laden's metamorphosis from a shy, well-educated, wealthy young Saudi Arabian boy to the hate-filled man he became. We were struck by his steady and relentless pursuit of his goals.

We were especially struck that by taking all his fatwas, press interviews, video tapes and statements together, they painted the whole picture: A clear and present danger that many of us had missed in real time.

OBL is the islamic equivalent to Jerry Falwell, let's be careful who we defend. On edit, Falwell hasn't killed anyone. But, the fundi's are motivated by hate and control, no matter which stripe they choose to acheive their goals of demanding everyone think and act as they do.

It's interesting that Bush "isn't that concerned about him" huh?

[CJCRANE]

96. I don't trust Scheuer

but I accept your point that defending bin Laden isn't exactly the right thing to do.

[gully]

98. And I accept yours if Scheuer is the only source.

Seems an odd arbitrary number?

[gully]

83. See posts 81 and 82. I found "links."

eom

[wtmusic]

84. You didn't find shit

Interesting how you converted that statement of OBL's to imply that "Americans could save themselves by converting to Islam".

And your second source is hearsay, of hearsay, of hearsay. Not defending OBL; just amazed at how people suck up RW talking points and spout them as gospel truth.

[gully]

89. Excuse me? What do you feel "we are calling you to Islam" means?

I repeated what CNN stated, and looked for evidence to back it up. What's your problem with this information? Do you doubt that people can "save" themselves from fundamentalist lunatic violence by claiming to convert? Remember the inquisition?

Here once again are his statements broken down:

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

That makes sense, stop killing us and we'll stop killing you. BUT, he goes on to say.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

And he also states:

We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

Sorry folks OBL is a f-king nut case as are Bush and company and we are currently at all of their mercy. Unfortunately the President isn't concerned with Osama Bin Laden, we need one who is! How's that for a RW talking point?

Read the letter.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Although, thankfully (more recently) he's toned down his rhetoric a bit:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/593298A0-3C1A-4EB4-B29D-EA1A9678D922.htm

Truce offer

"In response to the substance of the polls in the US, which indicate that Americans do not want to fight Muslims on Muslim land, nor do they want Muslims to fight them on their land, we do not mind offering a long-term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to.

"We are a nation that Allah banned from lying and stabbing others in the back, hence both parties of the truce will enjoy stability and security to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by war.

"In response to the substance of the polls in the US, which indicate that Americans do not want to fight Muslims ... we do not mind offering a long-term truce based on just conditions that we will stick to"

Addressing Americans again, he said: "If your desire for peace, stability and reconciliation was true, here we have given you the answer to your call."

[CJCRANE]

88. He's never said that.

He's always said stop killing muslims and occupying muslim land.

He's not very religious if you actually read up on him. He likes Hollywood action films for instance.

[gully]

90. Your misunderstanding. Of course he wants us to "stop killing muslims"

but he went beyond that.

READ THE LETTER: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

He did say it. And he said we should stop "gambling and engaging in homosexual activity" among other looney demands. So, when people say that the fundies and OBL have lots in common, they're not kidding.

You people act like you had lunch with Osama last week?

I realize that we can change our foreign policy and OBL will likely stop killing us, but that doesn't change the fact that he justifies the murder of innocent people in many ways. One of which is his own twisted interpretation of Islam.

On edit, he has toned it down a bit: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/593298A0-3C1A-4EB4-B29D-EA1A9678D922.htm

Perhaps if we just leave the middle-east he'll leave us alone? All the more reason to elect those who wish to "cut and run" or get the f out of Iraq?

[Radioactive]

74. Glad they have been released!

They had the balls to go into the battle zone unlike those a-holes that spout their bullshit in the comfort of the Fox News studio.

What would be really great now is if Steve tells Faux where to go and leave that BS station.

[Master of Disaster]

102. Praise Allah...

:yoiks: