NYT Census Shows Growth of Immigrants. Unbelievable!

[Auntie Bush]

You won't believe how many Immigrants there really are in this country!
HUGE increase since bush* took office. I'll bet he was thinking he'd give them amnesty through his rubber stamp congress and they'd be so grateful and vote for him in the future. Also Dems will lose another voting demographic.



Census Shows Growth of Immigrants

The number of immigrants living in American households rose 16 percent over the last five years, fueled largely by recent arrivals from Mexico, according to fresh data released by the Census Bureau.

Coming in the heart of an election season in which illegal immigration has emerged as an issue, the new data from the bureau’s 2005 American Community Survey is certain to generate more debate. But more than that, demographers said, it highlights one reason immigration has become such a heated topic.

“What’s happening now is that immigrants are showing up in many more communities all across the country than they have ever been in,” said Audrey Singer, an immigration fellow at the Brookings Institution. “So it’s easy for people to look around and not just see them, but feel the impact they’re having in their communities. And a lot of these are communities that are not accustomed to seeing immigrants in their schools, at the workplace, in their hospitals.”

“It’s the continuation of a pattern that we first began to see 10 or 15 years ago,” said Jeff Passel, senior research associate at the Pew Hispanic Center, who has examined the new census data. “But instead of being confined to areas like the Southeast, it’s beginning to spill over into some Midwestern states, like Indiana and Ohio. It’s even moving up into New England.”

Continued (It's scary how this country will/has changed)

How has the influx of immigrants to the U.S. changed the political and cultural landscape?
Post a Comment

[Kagemusha]

1. Don't take this personally, but..

I imagine a lot of people were scared to see all those Irish and Germans coming in, too, once upon a time. They'd have said, it's scary how things have and will change. Why can't it just be like the good old days?

You know, the 1830's.

[Imagine My Surprise]

3. In fact, 151 years ago last week in Louisville, KY...

was a major violent attack against Germans and Irish. It was the darkest day in Louisville's history.

[enlightenment]

24. The Know-Nothings . . .

A 19th-century political cartoon by the Know Nothings, showing how the German and Irish immigrants corrupted the election.


What was old is new again -- interesting that most of those 19th century immigrants voted for the "liberal" candidates (parties were different then).

[kineneb]

49. yup, some of my ancestors

and Hubby's, too. Mine were the Germans, his, the Irish. (We are a truly mixed marriage- German Lutheran ancestry and Irish Catholic ancestry...we are both Buddhists. :) )

Lots of complaints then about the Germans not speaking English and having strange customs...hmm, sounds familiar?

"Help Wanted: Irish and Germans need not apply."

[tblue37]

62. My grandparents came over from Sicily.

People freaked out for sure when all those dusky southern Mediterranean types started showing up in the US.

[FILAM23]

99. HUGE DIFFERENCE

the Irish and Germans in the 1830's followed
the laws of the day, the majority of these immigrants
knowingly break the law entering the country, and
should be treated like the criminals they are.

[Akim]

105. They came in an era of unrestricted immigration and were surely as ...

law-abiding as immigrants are today.

[ryanmuegge]

109. Things were different then, in economic terms...

There were not (close to) 7 billion people in the world. Granted, we in the US are just a little above replacement level demographically. We also have mandatory spending crises confronting us in the next few years (I would argue that Medicare is already a crisis). Immigrants, because they aren't paid shit, don't contribute much back in terms of tax revenue and have no choice but to use social services. As we know, we're also running deficits.

All of this shows how irresponsible both the administration and congress are. They cut taxes for the super rich and want to let in cheap labor who contribute little back in terms of revenue.

[Akim]

110. Legalize them; tax them and they will contribute a great deal. In fact...

they already do.

The Social Security Administration has a $22 billion surplus thanks to withholding from illegal immigrants who are not eligible to collect benefits.

So, in effect, migrants are underwriting the retirement benefits of our parents and grandparents.

And, no doubt, ours someday, too.

[xchrom]

2. america will become a latin american country --

of mostly mexican american descent.

just the way it is. it's not bad or good.

[skids]

93. Yep that's pretty much it...

...by letting the normal legal process get suffocated by bureaucracy, and by failing to nip the problem in the bud decades ago, America will find itself no longer a diverse mixing pot, but rather a mostly monolithic Mexican culture, or who knows, if we get a huge influx from elsewhere, e.g. people from a country who holds all our debt and will eventually buy our foreclosed houses from our banks, we may find ourselves looking a lot like Iraq with large geographically divided populations of common heritage.

Not that Mexican culture is a bad thing, but the fact is by bypassing the system these folks will end up not having gone through the "social studies class" that the legal immigration program is supposed to provide them.

But hey, it's a wash anyway, because despite the fact that social studies was the whole damn reason for public education in the first place (the reasoning was: if we let the people govern themselves, the people are going to need to learn about civics and all the other stuff needed to make smart choices) we barely even teach it to our own kids anymore anyway, judging from the fact that the majority cannot do basic things like accurately describe what the separation of powers is for. I would not be surprised at all if many of the illegal immigrants know more about democracy than the latest batch of native-borns emerging into the workforce now.

And thus disappears our communal values as a country and our system of government. Already I see it happenning among the college kids around here -- they have no idea what their rights are and allow themselves to be herded around by just about anyone who will stand up and pretend that they have the right to tell them what to do. Back in my day we would have raised holy hell for infractions like what they silently endure, and I imagine that those educated a decade before me would have thought the same of me, since my generation got caught in the leading edge of that decay.

Maybe the best thing to hope for might be that Lopez Obrador manages to get control and decides on a whim to revamp their constitution and educate Mexican citizens with the full boat of personal liberties/responsibilities. That would be a pretty ironic thing, no? To have American democracy restored by Mexican immigrants?

I'm not getting my hopes up. The truth here is that the point of no return on this was probably sometime in the 70s, and we already passed it. Moreover once we passed it we kept going with the pedal to the metal. Now it's an intractable problem with impending consequences to boot, and destined to be nothing more than a political football. About the only way out of it I can think of is an extremely draconian crackdown on corporate labor practices coupled with a global collapse of the globalist movement.

Anyway I speak Spanish, so it doesn't bother me as much as it might others.

[underpants]

4. No kidding about 6 months ago there were 10 Million now it's 14 Million

:bounce:

I started to put a thread together on how the talking points had the number of illegals in the US escalating by the week but I lost all the links. The radio hosts HAVE been adding to the total at least weekly if not daily.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

54. Au Revoir Enjoy your very short stay

[liberalpragmatist]

5. As the child of immigrants

The idea of immigrants making a new home in the U.S. doesn't really scare me.

I will add that I can understand fears that immigrants (especially illegal ones) can depress wages for low-income workers. Still, I think on balance, properly-managed legal immigration is a plus. It made America what it is today and American culture has always been changing. It hasn't been since the early 19th Century that America was defined by WASP culture. First it was changed by the Scots and Scotch-Irish, then by the Germans, then the Irish, then the Italians and Eastern European Jews, then by Japanese, Chinese, and now by Hispanics and more Asians.

[Breeze54]

12. Isn't that the point though?

It isn't 'regulated'!
This huge influx came at a time when jobs were leaving our shores
and companies were/are laying off massive amounts of people.
That's where the raised eyebrows comes from!

[Triana]

45. Exactly. It isn't regulated - and it badly badly needs to be.

ASAP. I got no problem with legal immigrants. We have WAAAAY too many illegals coming here - and the companies who hire them - FINE them. They know better.

[silverojo]

46. Triana, you hit the nail on the head! n/t

[angstlessk]

6. I heard some Xian fascist claim if we keep intermarrying we will end up

looking like those people in Rio De Janeiro. Shocker, last time I looked they are among the most beautiful people on the planet! Bring em on!

[skooooo]

8. ..on the other hand..

Some heartland churches are trying to help immigrants, teach them English, etc.

[angstlessk]

26. I am not talking about churches, I am talking about those 'pretend'

preachers on TV who preach hatred and intolerance. That is why I used the Xian and not Christian.

[skooooo]

7. Yep, there really are a lot of Mexicans and LA folks..

...coming in. Hispanics in the heartland where they've never been before.

[MuseRider]

15. We have always had a large

population in Kansas, mostly because of the railroad I think. IMO they make a community vibrant with all the differences that we can celebrate.

[aggiesal]

56. Being of Hispanic decent, both parents Mexican,

Mom born in Mexico and Dad born in Colorado,
I grew up in Indiana back in the 60's and 70's.

I believe we've always been in the heartland. Unfortunately, we've allowed the right to frame this issue, so that progressives thinkers are actually buying into this idea that illegals are now infiltrating areas, where they've never been before.

Alot of hispanic migrated to the steel mills of Northwest Indiana, and the Pittsburgh region, for work back in the 50's and 60's. There were whole cities back then that were mostly hispanic with stores catering to hispanics.

I think the thing that I resent the most, is the assumption that all illegals are Mexicans. Most may be, but not all.

I support the Bill in the Senate that actually tries to find solutions for the illegal immigration problem, and even support some type of amnesty, as long as those seeking amnesty go to the end of the line and wait 7-10 years behind those that came here legally, are doing.

I hate the Bill in the House that really does nothing to find solutions for illegal immigration, and tries to criminalize the act of immigrating and any/all that help the immigrants.

The protesting that occurred in LA and other big cities in the US were protesting the HR bill that criminalizes these actions.

[skooooo]

57. I have no issues with you....

The steel mills in NW Indiana are close to Chicago which is definitely an anomoly. Growing up away from any cities, I never saw a Hispanic person. There weren't any in my schools.

[aggiesal]

59. The problem as I see it,

is that you have big business actively recruiting low wage workers in Mexico and Central America. Even going so far as to pay for their transportation and importation into this country.

Because the border states are already saturated with low wage workers, you will now start to see those states that border the border states, like the Louisiana's, Oklahoma's and Nevada's of the country start obsorbing low wage workers.

I feel that until Big Business is fined like the FCC fines radio talk hosts for unsuitable language (in FCC's mind) for each instance on each station, Big Business really has nothing to lose by continuing this practice.

Big Business should be fined for each worker, at each location where the offense is occurring at the same FCC rate of $350,000. This it might become too expensive to here the illegal immigrant.

Now I'm just rambling.

BTW, Everyone enjoying the ability to POST here at DU, please considering DONATING.

[TankLV]

9. Can we all spell "XENOPHOBIA"?

Do we all understand what it means?

No, I just would be willing to bet my whole livelihood and existance, that if all these immigrants came from, oh, say England or Australia, we wouldn't be having this discussion or all of this "concern" all of a sudden...

[EVDebs]

21. No, but we can all understand LOW WAGES

brought on by importing a foreign labor force willing to work for much less. Republican (and go-along Democrats) demand lower wages and the political system that delivers those low wages. Just look, after 12 years the Republican controlled Congress hasn't touched the minimum wage. Go figure.

""After making up nearly half of the overall growth in the nation’s labor force during the decade of the 1990s, new immigrants have been responsible for 60 percent of civilian labor force growth between 2000 and 2004 and captured all of the net gains in employment over the past four years, according to a new report from Northeastern's Center for Labor Market Studies.""

http://www.nupr.neu.edu/7-04/immigration_july04.shtml

No, DUers, this is all very believeable.

[endarkenment]

22. So lets enforce minimum wage laws and other employment laws.

And by all means lets raise the minimum wage. Stop supporting xenophibic anti-immigrant rants.

[mark414]

23. blame the people paying the wages, not the people making them

that's a bullshit argument anyways

[EVDebs]

25. $10K fines for each instance...

and the DOL still doesn't enforce the law. Wonder why ?

[mark414]

33. because the guys doing the employing

have friends in high places and also maybe it's realized that without the work of immigrants in this country our economy would collapse...

you pick your name after one of the great labor leaders this country has ever seen and you're blaming laborers? they don't have any power in this equation and to try to foist any sort of blame on people who are only trying to make a living is irresponsible and untrue.

[EVDebs]

41. Even Caesar Chavez didn't support unlimited immigration

It would kill his union eventually, and it appears growers are hiring illegals in order to break the UFW.

As for 'blaming' anyone, I wouldn't have mentioned the Northeastern study showing over half of all new jobs going to immigrants, legal and otherwise, had the economy not provided the 'high paying' jobs all of us are being educated to fill (supposedly).

Many of those high paying jobs are being offshored to India or to H1B visa holders. As for being 'irresponsible' and 'untrue', people back in his day said the same thing about the real Eugene V. Debs, who ended up in jail.

I take your criticism as a compliment ! Keep attacking me, you haven't mentioned any of the inconvenient facts I've shown...

[mark414]

42. ok, here - read this

and i don't support unlimited immigration either...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=2314f86f5f3affb4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

...a more careful examination of the economic data suggests that the argument is, at the very least, overstated. There is scant evidence that illegal immigrants have caused any significant damage to the wages of American workers.

snip

"Immigrants come in and the industries that use this type of labor grow," said David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley. "Taking all into account, the effects of immigration are much, much lower."

In a study published last year that compared cities that have lots of less educated immigrants with cities that have very few, Mr. Card found no wage differences that could be attributed to the presence of immigrants.

Other research has also cast doubt on illegal immigration's supposed damage to the nation's disadvantaged. A study published earlier this year by three economists — David H. Autor of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Mr. Katz of Harvard and Melissa S. Kearney of the Brookings Institution — observed that income inequality in the bottom half of the wage scale has not grown since around the mid-1980's.

Even economists striving hardest to find evidence of immigration's effect on domestic workers are finding that, at most, the surge of illegal immigrants probably had only a small impact on wages of the least-educated Americans — an effect that was likely swamped by all the other things that hit the economy, from the revolution in technology to the erosion of the minimum wage's buying power.

[EVDebs]

50. The Hard Truth of Immigration by Robert Samuelson doesn't 'cast doubt'

subtitled:

'No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers',

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8100266/site/newsweek/

The article states facts and commonsense. The NYTimes article you produced discounts the economic effects of immigration on those at the bottom of the economic ladder. Immigration, unlimited, is bound to worsen conditions there and those people are mainly silent politically anyway so the NYT wouldn't be writing about their plight. Besides, explain to me the current economic stagnation despite the huge immigrant influx. You appear to be defending Bush's handling of the economy.

Therefore, I'm sure you'll agree with me now without equivocation.

""Being brutally candid means recognizing that the huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled Latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process....
For today's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal), the closest competitors are tomorrow's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal). The more who arrive, the harder it will be for existing low-skilled workers to advance.""

Again, back to my point about ensuring LOW WAGES in the US and unlimited immigration; you will agree with me now ?

[ozone_man]

111. The Rape of the Working Class

A few more articles explaining the high cost of cheap labor.

The Rape of the Working Class

By David Podvin

Illegal immigration is a means by which corporations savage America’s working class. Although the media conglomerates have misrepresented the undocumented worker influx as primarily being a racial issue, it is actually an economic bludgeon. Business interests encourage illegal immigration for the purposes of depressing wages and subverting workplace safety laws. The Wall Street brokerage firm Bear Stearns uses the word “systematic” when describing the replacement of lower income American wage earners with illegal aliens, noting management prefers to employ help that is not documented because laborers who lack legal standing are more easily exploited.

Corporate concubine George W. Bush has assisted business by reducing border security while coddling companies that subject undocumented employees to inhumane conditions. Despite the recent election year charade that involved arresting a few managers at IFCO Systems, there has been a ninety percent drop in illegal immigration-related employer arrests since 2000. Employment laws that were occasionally enforced by Bill Clinton are almost never enforced by Bush.

.

Mexican migrants are also victims. Business lures them here so they can be cheated and used as scapegoats. Undocumented workers are often denied the pay they have earned, subjected to racial animus, housed in squalid conditions, and physically abused. When persecuted they have no recourse, which makes them the ideal employees. While the corporatists and their dupes promote illegal immigration as being some sort of civil rights struggle, they have never advocated a plan insuring that everyone who is working in America will be protected by law. The serial amnesties (of which McCain-Kennedy is the most recent) merely guarantee that corporations can perpetually victimize undocumented laborers.

The Democratic Party is another victim, albeit in a poetically just way. The party’s decline has coincided with its ongoing betrayal of the working class. Democrats began their excruciating electoral descent precisely at the moment they decided to embrace centrist economic policies, which is a euphemism for romancing the mercantile aristocracy. The erstwhile champions of the underdog should be assailing the corporate brigands who exploit workers. Holding management accountable is what a labor party does, but for decades the United States has been without a relevant labor party.

The winners in the illegal immigration struggle are major corporations and their favorite political acolytes. For robber barons the status quo provides an ideal scenario in which they bleed their employees while generating societal strife that can be demagogued by Republican politicians. The GOP cannot win when Americans vote based on economic self-interest, so it is essential that the electorate vote its resentments. By destroying this nation’s working class and benefiting politically from the fallout, Corporate America is achieving a tour de force of malevolence.

Meanwhile, liberals are achieving a tour de force of irrelevance. If modern liberalism means anything more than hating Bush it must stand for economic and social justice. Working Americans deserve to have their living standards protected. Mexican migrants deserve to be treated as human beings. Allowing people into this country illegally assures that neither objective will be attained as business ruthlessly exploits one group to dispossess the other.

Illegal immigration must be stopped. It can be stopped by completely closing the border or it can be stopped by completely opening the border. It can be stopped by implementing guest worker programs or it can be stopped by enforcing labor laws. The methodology is less relevant than the result. The imperative is that all employees must be here legally to insure they are vested with formal protections. Only then can corporatists be defeated in their never-ending war against the American working class.

http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/more...orkingClass.htm

Increasing the Supply of Labor Through Immigration
Measuring the Impact on Native-born Workers

May 2004

By Dr. George J. Borjas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

President Bush and some members of Congress have proposed legalizing illegal aliens and substantially increasing legal immigration. Economic theory predicts that increasing the supply of labor in this way will reduce earnings for natives in competition with immigrants. This study examines the economic impact of increases in the number of immigrant workers by their education level and experience in the work force, using Census data from 1960 through 2000. Statistical analysis shows that when immigration increases the supply of workers in a skill category, the earnings of native-born workers in that same category fall. The negative effect will occur regardless of whether the immigrant workers are legal or illegal, temporary or permanent. Any sizable increase in the number of immigrants will inevitably lower wages for some American workers. Conversely, reducing the supply of labor by strict immigration enforcement and reduced legal immigration would increase the earnings of native workers.


Among this Backgrounder’s findings:


• By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.


• Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent.


• The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates.


• The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.


• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

Introduction

After World War I, laws were passed severely limiting immigration. Only a trickle of immigrants has been admitted since then. . . By keeping labor supply down, immigration policy tends to keep wages high. Let us underline this basic principle: Limitation of the supply of any grade of labor relative to all other productive factors can be expected to raise its wage rate; an increase in supply will, other things being equal, tend to
depress wage rates.

— Paul Samuelson, Economics (1964)

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html

Immigrant Civil Rights Movement

Z Sustainer question: Have you been following the new explosion of activism on the immigration issue? It's a really exciting time to live in Tucson. I've been involved in this issue for over 6 years and I've never seen anything like it before...

Noam Chomsky: It certainly is becoming a major issue, and as you say, the lines are drawn in complicated ways. The business community wants cheap and easily exploitable workers, who will drive down wages and benefits especially for the poor. There's a jingoist element that wants to keep the country "pure." The immigrants here want basic human rights.

There's a huge flow from south of the border, who want the right of free movement of labor (according to Adam Smith, the core of free trade, but the "trade agreements" permit only free movement of capital, consistent with the primary goals of their designers).

Also, more privileged sectors have the power to evade the impact of cheaper competition. A Mexican doctor, journalist, professional can come to the US to be a dishwasher or pick fruit, but not to pursue his/her profession at much lower wages; various barriers against that. Economist Dean Baker has written a lot about it.

All of this takes us back to the (mostly suppressed) debates about NAFTA. The media constantly claimed that the labor movement was crude, nationalist, backward, etc. (Anthony Lewis and others), but were very careful to suppress -- entirely I think -- the actual proposals of the labor movement, which issued a detailed study in favor a "North American Free Trade Agreement", but not the executive version -- the only one allowed to be mentioned -- which, they plausibly argued, would lead to low-wage low-benefit economies for all three countries. They proposed instead quite constructive measures, some modeled on EU expansion, which could lead to high-wage high-benefit high-growth economies. Their detailed critique and proposals were quite similar to those of Congresses independent research Bureau (Office of Technology Assessment, since abolished), which was also banned from the media and general discussion. The results are about as predicted. That's a large part of the "immigration problem." When economies are destroyed, people will flee. Worth remembering that Clinton militarized the border (Operation Gatekeeper) just as NAFTA was instituted.

I wrote about this in Z at the time, more in World Orders Old and New, which came out at that time And there's other work.

These and other such issues have to move to the center of the agenda if there is to be constructive approach to these issues, I think.

http://blogs.zmag.org/node/2551

It's a complicated issue, where the corporate liberals and conservatives support illegal immigration or at least look the other way, and the xenophobic right wing and labor find themselves opposing illegal immigration, for different reasons obviously. To compound the problem, the Catholic Church opposes contraception thus perpetuating the population explosion of Mexico City, creating a vast underclass to take the legs out from under the labor movement. Corporate America is about exporting jobs overseas and importing cheap (illegally cheap) exploitable labor for what's left. Hence, the rape of the working class. Doctors and lawyers are largely buffered from the effects of illegal immigration as Chomsky explains.

OTOH, we took lands away from Mexico who took lands from Native Americans and most of the Mexicans are part Native American (Mestizo). So, it's come full circle in that sense. Still, it's important to understand the motivations for the corporatists in dismantling the labor movement, and what role Christianity plays in keeping the world's underclasses barefoot and pregnant. No simple way to look at this I'm afraid.

[Akim]

106. Didn't Eugene V. Debs (your hero) favor unrestricted immigration?Or did...

he want to send Emma Goldman back to Russia?

[Megahurtz]

35. No, I blame the people making the wages too.

Do you really think that many of them care about you or I?

Not!

I see many of them that could give a shit less!

They are here for themselves and they will mow over anyone
just to get what they want for themselves.

[Lindacooks]

39. Huh?

Your statement shows that you could 'give a shit less' about them as well. I think your statement is the pot calling the kettle black.

And the poeple who 'will mow over anyone just to get what they want for themselves' are repukes and the wealthy crooks who support them. Someone trying to make a living isn't going to 'mow over' you or anyone else.

Sheesh.

[Megahurtz]

58. Sorry I have No Sympathy.

When illegals steal a box of checks out of my mailbox, forge my checks, steal my identity,
(which recently happened to me)
I would call that mowing me over for their own selfishness, wouldn't you???

I'm just minding my own fucking business!

Not to mention many of the other "I could give a shit" ways
that some of them act around where I live.

In that case yes, I could give a shit less about them
because THEY could give a shit less about me!:grr:

How's that for information to feed your "pot calling the kettle black" fire?:think:

[mark414]

43. um...you mean like a lot of americans?

read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=2314f86f5f3affb4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

it'll clear things up a little...

[Megahurtz]

60. That newspaper article is a bogus opinion,

if you ask me.

It's a fact that illegal immigration lowers the wage for U.S. Citizens trying to get ahead
simply because it's cheap labor.

Ohio is simply keeping equal in wages with the other States that have more illegal immigrants.

And what does that do? That pushes out U.S. citizens needing work, especially the working poor.
The working poor are stuck with basically no jobs.:(

[GirlinContempt]

64. Yeah! I fucking hate it when homeless impoverished starving people

mow me over to get enough money to survive!

:eyes:

[Megahurtz]

66. When they mow me over when I'M trying to survive

you better fucking believe it pisses me off!

Like I haven't lived homeless for five years myself!

Have you???

I would certainly guess not by that seemingly ignorant comment!

[GirlinContempt]

67. Actually, yes. I have been homeless.

In my past, I lived on the street. And I don't begrudge people who're dying without clean water, without food, without the means to support their children, without homes the opportunity to achieve those things. Being homeless in my country is a cakewalk compared to being homeless there, and I don't personally think I am any more deserving of life than an immigrant trying to save his or her family.

There is nothing ignorant about my remark. It galls me to hear people from the richest nation in the world moaning about impoverished people trying to save their own lives. Especially when these people are escaping conditions that are caused by the richest countries attempts to get richer and feed their voracious appetite for resources.

[Megahurtz]

68. Richest Nation does NOT mean everyone here is rich

I lived homeless for five years with a child to feed. How in the world would you know what kind of conditions I was escaping from, or anyone else here as U.S. citizens for that matter, who might be struggling as well? Who are you to judge who is impoverished, and who is not?

Hell, you're right that being homeless in Canada is a Cakewalk,
I lived there for three of those five years.

I just recently got a real roof over our heads and I am still struggling on disability. There are a lot of other people who are struggling here too, I am not the only one. So I am supposed to just let these illegals steal from me after everything I've been through?

NOT!

Maybe you have an easier life, and of course being Canadian
you see the U.S. in a much different light. I've been used to that one.

But sorry, get a clue.
"The richest Nation in the World" is sending all of their money out of the country
and there are impoverished U.S. citizens living right here!!!

Have you forgotton what happened with Katrina for one thing???:wtf:

Oh that's right, I forgot.

You're in Canada.:eyes:

[GirlinContempt]

69. Of course it doesn't mean that everyone is rich.

And I never said anything about any condition that you personally have lived in. Try reading what I say before reacting with hyperbole. This isn't a judge of who is impoverished, this is a judge of how we deal with wealth, and how we deal with other human beings in the same or worse circumstances than ourselves.

There are many people who're struggling in the US, and in Canada. When I say cakewalk, it was shit. I lived in piss soaked bus stations, camped in half-collapsed buildings, got frostbite, didn't eat for days, had to deal with violence and abuse. But I've also been to latin american countries, and while I'd never wish my experience on ANYONE, the situation there was worse. Comparatively, here was a cakewalk.

I, however, disagree with you on one major thing. I don't think the 'illegals' are coming over to 'steal' from you or anyone else. I think people are entering the US trying to escape abject poverty and brutal conditions, and it's absolutely paranoid to think the intent of these people is to 'steal' from YOU.

How about this:
Instead of vilifying people who're trying to do what YOU DID, which is save yourself and your family, try looking at your statements about " "The richest Nation in the World" is sending all of their money out of the country and there are impoverished U.S. citizens living right here!!! " and YOU get a clue. Xenophobic rants about immigration aren't going to solve that problem, and using the people as a scapegoat only further allows this kind of thing to happen. Policies which impoverish nations to benefit the US can and will only encourage floods of immigrants trying to escape those conditions. And blaming immigrants for poverty and loss at home will only allow the policy makers to continue this cycle of abuse at home and abroad.

And, I have no clue what you're trying to say with the Katrina reference. I do see the US differently from you, that's clear. But I don't know how much of it is due to my being Canadian.

[Megahurtz]

70. You said:

"I, however, disagree with you on one major thing. I don't think the 'illegals' are coming over to 'steal' from you or anyone else. I think people are entering the US trying to escape abject poverty and brutal conditions, and it's absolutely paranoid to think the intent of these people is to 'steal' from YOU."

I said for whatever reason they are coming here, some of them are stealing to get by.
Some have stolen from me. I don't know how you could twist that.

Stealing from the poor is not cool. I am still trying to get by.
I don't have a lot of sympathy over people that will impoverish others
in order to benefit themselves.

Does that make any sense to you?

And as far as the policies here, I would change them if I could, but it's difficult enough when I'm trying to keep my own head above water (without someone stealing from me and dragging me back down)

Again, I'm sure there are many other impoverished U.S. citizens too that are struggling to get by.

So do you think it's okay to steal from them too?

[GirlinContempt]

71. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

You said: "So I am supposed to just let these illegals steal from me after everything I've been through?"

not "Some of them are stealing to get by."

I'm not twisting anything, and you're twisting and turning what I'm saying into somehow implying I think stealing is great.

I think stealing is wrong, but I don't see how theft is an immigration issue.
It's one thing to feel powerless to change policy and make a difference in that regard, it's another thing entirely to dis-empower a large group of people. Which is what I think you're doing. It's easy to take a frustrated feeling of powerlessness and turn it on someone else, but it isn't helpful or productive.

I think it's time for me to bow out of this discussion. You seem set on believing that you're more worthy poor than someone else, and that immigrants want to steal from you. And I know I'm set in believing that immigrants want the best that they can give their families, or at the very least a chance for survival.

[Megahurtz]

79. I am not disempowering anyone,

they are disempowering me by stealing my checks, forging them, stealing my money
and stealing my identitity and using it for other means.:think:

You ever had anyone perpetrate that fucking mess on you? You oughtta try it sometimes! :sarcasm:


I brought up stealing because I'm telling you why I resent illegal immigrants stealing what little I have. I don't care if you think it's an immigration issue or not,
but apparently if illegal immigrants are stealing from anyone, it's an issue.:think:

I think one way to change the policy and make a difference is to erect a huge fence
and send them all back because they are coming here and disempowering this
large group of people of U.S. citizens!

How about making them go back down to Mexico and legally apply for citizenship to the U.S.
at one of our consulates down there, just like Canada makes us wankers do, eh?

I don't see why you think one group of people deserves more than another,
and why you think one group of people is more "worthy poor" than another, and I don't understand why you have more empathy for one group of people than another.

Why, because you think that everyone that lives in the U.S.
which is supposedly "the richest country in the world"
is not "worthy poor" themselves???
Think again! :think:

Since you refuse to see outside of your box, I guess I'm done with you too.

[GirlinContempt]

83. That's just ridiculous.

I'm sorry but I gotta respond.

I *am* of the opinion that if you are homeless, starving, without water or sanitation facilities, you are more of a priority than someone who is scraping by. Yes, that is what I think.

I don't think one group of people deserves more than another, but clearly you do. You think you deserve more than these people. If I have more empathy for them than you, it's probably because if an American steals from them they don't claim Americans are thieves publicly to me. Or maybe it's just that I have empathy for everyone who's struggling in this way and don't advocate demonizing groups of people based on their situations and my own selfishness. Maybe it's this crazy feeling I have of empathy that tells me, don't send people back into conditions that will most likely kill them. Maybe that's whats happening with my empathy.

You didn't read what I said, and you just seem pissed off that someone stole from you and you seem to think this makes your position solid, when in fact it's just a broad-brush generalization.

[Megahurtz]

87. You resent and despise Americans.

Because you think all Americans are well-to-do, and can take the brunt of any and all impoverished people, it's in your conversation:

"It galls me to hear people from the richest nation in the world moaning about impoverished people trying to save their own lives."

and:

"This isn't a judge of who is impoverished, this is a judge of how we deal with wealth, and how we deal with other human beings in the same or worse circumstances than ourselves."

Wealth?:wtf: What wealth???

and:

"Policies which impoverish nations to benefit the US can and will only encourage floods of immigrants trying to escape those conditions."

"Benefit the U.S."??? :wtf: again???

I do have you figured out in this way:

You think that all Americans have more than others, so that's how you justify other impoverished people coming illegally into the U.S. and grabbing away anything they want from U.S. citizens for themselves.

Here's another bizzare and assuming accusation of yours:

"I don't think one group of people deserves more than another, but clearly you do.
You think you deserve more than these people."

Read this paragraph carefully:

I deserve to retain what little I have that I personally own, and what I have worked hard for and my famliy deserves to retain it too. I do not deserve to have ANYTHING I personally own stolen from me by anyone!

If you think that the above statement is me thinking that I "deserve more than these people",
then that's really fucked-up.

If you're so focused on "policies" why don't you focus on the Government of Mexico and the rich fucks in Mexico City who are doing nothing for their people and forcing their own people to be impoverished?

Leave the Americans out of this, many of us are scraping to get by,
and then there is nothing left to scrape.

You are the one with a "broad brush generalization" that all illegal immigrants in the U.S. are homeless,
and that they need to steal from others!
That's funny!
I personally know some illegal immigrants who were not poor in Mexico,
and who are doing very well here, tax free.

Sorry, this is just wrong.
I say they can all go back to Mexico and legally apply for residency
just like your immigration policies in Canada.

[GirlinContempt]

89. Oh man, you're just out there somewhere.

I don't 'resent and despise Americans'. I don't think all Americans are wealthy. I don't think people should steal. I've said all of those things.

You need to get a grip on reality. Seriously. I'm not even going to attempt to argue the convenient acquaintances of yours that apparently risked their lives to get into a country despite being wealthy and choose to endanger their status and freedom so they can live 'tax free'.

I don't think all immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are homeless and 'need to steal from others'. However, most (ESPECIALLY illegal) were homeless, or destitute, and in desperate need of escape.

What you're saying is just wrong. You're freaking out because SOMEONE stole from you, you decide illegal immigrants are thieves, and you are fixated on the idea that anyone defending immigration is out to get you and wants people to steal from you.

Canada has 'illegal' immigrants, too. You've become fixated on where I live. You should watch out for that.

The government of mexico is fucking over it's citizens, that doesn't excuse the US from doing it. Or Canada. Or any other country that does it. You clearly don't understand the use of the word "wealth" and how it can mean, in general, wealth of a nation, not just your personal stash of dollar bills. You also seem confused by the idea that American policies of trade and relations are weighted in the favour of America. Wake up, it's been happening for a long time, and FTA/NAFTA only solidified it. I don't think people should just 'grab whatever they want for themselves' be they a GOVERNMENT or an INDIVIDUAL. You're clearly confused by this idea of disliking a countries foreign policy without disliking the citizens or wishing them ill.

I'm seriously done. You're way out to lunch on this.

[Megahurtz]

98. Wrong.

You are the one that's "out there" because your mind is in a box. You twist around what I say. I cannot communicate with you so there is no use in trying. You don't answer any of my questions to you, you don't adress or show any concern about any of the issues that I brought up, you only go off on me in your own little world and how you view it.

Let me simplify it for you, you have sympathy for one group of people, and none for the other.
If that's not true, then why do you argue with me? Why do you twist my words?
Why do you vehemently defend that group, and not the other?
Simplicity stares me in the eyes!
So I'm done with the "poor little Mexicans" tirade,:nopity: and done with your get a "grip on reality", "you're way out to lunch", and your "wake up" insults!

Ya know, I'm sure I've been awake a lot longer than you, honey!

Buh bye!:hi:

[mark414]

75. i've been homeless in america

and it taught me that all the poor folks gotta get together and stop letting these fucking politicians split us apart. stop yelling at someone you should be calling your brother and give hell to the guys who make all this happen.

[Megahurtz]

80. Sorry Dude!

Someone who forges my checks, takes food out of my own family's mouth,
and runs me down just for their own benefit, is not my brother.

[mark414]

94. so one or a few people fuck you over

and you whine and bitch about it and hold everyone else who might have a similar background to the perps accountable for the rest of your life?

bad things happen, all the time, to everyone. that's life. grow up and get over it.

[Megahurtz]

95. You live in Wisconsin

I live in California, and it's overrun here with illegals taking from citizens. It would bother me even if that didn't happen to me, but that just made it a little worse. I would imagine living where you are, you just don't get it.

Nevertheless, I find your comments very ignorant, cold, and assinine.

[mark414]

96. i was homeless in southern california and arizona!

and the people who were the best to me and nicest to me and took me into their houses to feed me were people who had a little bit of an accent or could barely speak english.

i'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with people who are illegal immigrants, but that doesn't mean that all immigrants are illegal or all illegal immigrants are trying to fuck you over.

a lot of the crime that shows up in the immigrant population is from guys who were already criminals in their home country, and they came here to escape their crimes - they don't represent immigrants who come here for a better life.

you're sweeping in your generalizations - i'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone claimed that because you used to be homeless you were nothing but a drunken begging only in it for yourself tramp? i know i wouldn't.

[Megahurtz]

100. I am talking about

illegal immigrants specifically. I don't know how long ago you were in California, but you should see it today. Today it's a lot different. There are millions of them, everywhere. A lot of them just act rude and self-centered, like they don't care. It's hard for me to find any sympathy with that.

I'm glad you had good experiences with (illegal immigrants, I think) and so have I before, but it still doesn't mean that they should be allowed to come here in mass droves illegally, and lower our wages, and live tax-free while we are harassed to pay taxes. It's not right for the working poor here, or the poor who are not homeless. The illegals are riding on the backs of us, so to speak.

No other country lets Americans do that, (unless of course you have a lot of money) they will just send us back to apply legally from a consulate in our own country.
Why should we give anyone else any special favors?

The only way I would think all of this would be okay is if any other countries let Americans freely immigrate. I mean the one's who don't have money or a college education. So if you don't like it, you leave. Hell, I'm complaining so much that if that were the case I would be out of here in a heartbeat! But no, because I'm from America, I must be well off and don't need any help lol! (seriously, that is the attitude, the U.S. is the SuperPower you know):eyes:

My whole point is that the people who are mostly affected by this are the poor (U.S. citizens), and the supposedly middle class who are actually poor. They are getting "dinged" by illegal immigration. Being "ripped off" through illegal immigration goes far beyond someone stealing and forging checks. Some poor Americans getting dinged by the whole low wages thing and paying high taxes are so low on funds that they are borderline to being homeless.
Is illegal immigration fair to them?

My experience is that it's not, so we should get a serious control on immigration.

[mark414]

103. yeah man i see what you're saying and i agree with you

i just think you need to tone down the rhetoric a little bit; it stifles debate and in the long run is not a good thing for constructive discussion and problem solving.

i just left california 3 months ago thanks to san francisco's "if you're homeless we'll pay to get you the hell out of our town" and i'm in wisconsin staying with family recovering from an injury.

i don't think that illegal immigration is a good thing but i also don't think that it's a good thing to make statements like "there's millions of THEM here" like immigration is akin to a cockroach infestation (though i'm sure there's plenty of people in this country who would call that an apt analogy)

yes, everyone should come here legally, but have you ever thought to try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who'll risk death to come here illegally? i've met many and none of them was coming to try to mow down the poor people of america.

your enemy is the same as theirs and that is the power brokers of this country who said NAFTA was a good idea (even though that's what caused this whole immigration problem in the first place) and who say that raising the minimum wage will hurt business and that we need to cut taxes to the rich to stimulate the economy etc. etc. etc. you know who benefits from this division? the same assholes who caused this problem in the first place.

don't let them win. unite with your poor BROTHERS and SISTERS so that the PEOPLE can win, so that we can get what we deserve and get rid of the bastards who would divide us for their benefit.

will you join me, brother?

edited to add this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=2314f86f5f3affb4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

take a minute to read it, will you?

[Megahurtz]

104. Certainly,

I have put myself in their shoes many times, especially when I was homeless in Canada. If I were them and I were in dire poverty and had no way out in Mexico, but up (to the U.S.) I would cross that border too.

But again, who puts their feet in the shoes of U.S. citzens that suffer for this?
The majority on this thread are insensitive to those U.S. citizens.

I did read your article, and I disagree with it that I do believe the illegal immigration has lowered the American wage and/or kept it low. Ohio is just simply keeping wages equal with other States that have more illegal immigrants, possibly to attract them for Big Business.

Which is stated in the article:

"But the economists acknowledge that the number does not consider other economic forces, such as the fact that certain businesses would not exist in the United States without cheap immigrant labor."

Unfortunately, it's all about cheap labor for the Big Corporations, but the poor and supposedly middle class Americans are falling through the cracks for this one.

I wish we could get rid of the bastards that divide us for their benefit, because of course it all comes down to them, but I've pretty much lost hope for that. Diebold seems to prevent that, and the BigWigs at the top that have made billions from this Administration's greedy policies won't allow it. Unfortunately, it's always about money, isn't it?

I really believe that I am not the only one that feels the way I do, maybe one of the only one's on this thread. My rhetoric is toned up because I'm ranting, and I think I have plenty of reason to rant, and I apologize if I offend you.
I guess I better use this icon more often! :rant:

[entanglement]

86. If you want good deals on white hoods, torches and crosses, let me know.

n/t

[Megahurtz]

88. Yeah right, you make a hell of a lot of sense.

:eyes:

Maybe you should actually read my posts.

[GirlinContempt]

90. Duck out now, man.

[Megahurtz]

102. Oh I know.

I guess if white people were coming here illegally in mass droves
causing the population numbers to go sky-high,
stealing my checks, money, and identity,
getting all the freebies,
lowering the wages,
and not paying taxes etc. etc. etc.
I would be SO happy!:woohoo::sarcasm:


:eyes:

[Megahurtz]

34. Agreed! n/t

[entanglement]

85. Well said

:toast:

[maddezmom]

10. Auntie Bush...you need a link

:hi:

[Breeze54]

14. Here's the link...

Census Shows Growth of Immigrants
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/us/15census.html?hp&ex=1155700800&en=83b5bf15a0a83f12&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[endarkenment]

20. Uh - also the title is wrong.

I really doubt the NYT included "unbelievable" in the headline.

[endarkenment]

11. I love our latina people!

Please come here and mellow us out. We are hopelessly uptight wasps and northern europeans who have forgotten our roots and where we came from and how we got here. Come. Share. Enjoy.

[Igel]

18. I love our nordic people.

Clean, industrious, and self-disciplined.

Just like I like those chicken-eating, watermelon-munching rhythmically gifted folk.

Any more ethnic-based stereotypes you want hashed out?

They're ignorant over-generalizations when they're negative, I don't see any reason to think that positive over-generalizations are any more logically or morally sound.

That is, speaking as one of those uptight WASPs and northern european who have forgotten "our" roots--presumably where my genes spent part of their existence before immigrating from Asia.

But hey--I like gratuitous insults based on skin color and ethnicity. Really. They're oh-so-progressive.

[endarkenment]

19. Actually

it was a joke igil, to offset the dripping xeonphobia of the OP. I celebrate our wave of latin american immigrants. Do you?

[Megahurtz]

36. Yeah and WTF is up with the

"Lantin-a" comment. You chauvanist or something?:sarcasm:

:silly:

[ERF]

30. LOL. That was funny.

[Pithlet]

13. I've provided the link for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/us/15census.html?hp&ex=1155700800&en=83b5bf15a0a83f12&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Please make sure to include them in the future. Thanks.

[Auntie Bush]

16. So sorry...I just forgot...won't again...Thanks for not deleting.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

17. There are lots where I live. It is great, I am starting to learn Spanish

And that might not sound like much but listen in high school where I took Spanish for like 3 years and couldn't understand anything or say anything. But since I have gotten to make friends who actually speak it, I am really learning to say stuff!

[maxrandb]

27. If they vote for Democrats & support Progressive and Democratic positions

then our country will be OK, and we'll be able to pull ourselves out of this "death spiral".

If they vote for Republicans, we'll be a country where a small percentage of the incredibly wealthy rule over a large percentage of serfs. Like "cabbages and kings".

[YankeyMCC]

28. Boogie - Boogie - Boogie

Everyone be afraid of "immigrants" and forget about your own problems in our own society. Don't notice that in fact they are struggling for the same things you are and against the same people you're struggling against. :sarcasm:

[Lindacooks]

40. Thank you!!

Blaming immigrants is a lazy person's excuse for the problems this country faces. We have far bigger fish to fry, starting with reigning in the bastards who are bleeding this country dry - the white repukes at the top.

[amandabeech]

31. I'm concerned that our natural resources will be stretched too thin

if our population continues to increase. In 1900, at the height of the last big wave of immigration, our population was a little over 75,000,000. Now we're at least at 300,000,000, a four-fold increase. Unfortunately, we have the same amount of land that could be productive farmland or grazing land as we did 100 years ago.

No matter where immigrants come from, they eat, drink, eliminate those eats and drinks, wash themselves, their food and their clothing, and usually end up finding a roof to go over their heads. They also end up with a gasoline-powered vehicle and consume much of the same stuff as everybody else already here.

In many parts of the country, particularly in the southwest, but also near our major population centers in the midwest and east coast, it is becoming difficult to find sufficient clean water to supply the ever-growing population. And it goes without saying that high-quality farmland is being turned into housing, shopping and warehousing complexes at a truly alarming rate.

Global Warming and Energy, particularly petroleum, shortages may exacerbate the problems. The midsection of the country, with its productive fields, and parts of the west, may become much more dry as global warming continues, and may be unable to support grain farming, even grains that require relatively less water. If this year's weather is any indication of the future, we may have difficulty feeding ourselves over time, let alone provide exports and food aid for those living outside our borders.

As diesel and gasoline become much more expensive, farmland close to cities will become very, very valuable. However, in the northeast, that farmland is turning to residential and commercial development. I live in south central Pennsylvania, near Lancaster, and believe me, I see it every day. It is truly alarming.

My heritage is Irish, Swedish, Scottish, Welsh and English, and am considered somewhat of a WASP. I welcome some diversity, and have been living mostly in mixed areas all my life. However, we must not forget the land that gives us life. We over-populate and over-build at the peril of all of us regardless of heritage.

[Mojorabbit]

44. My main concern also

My state is not recognizable from what it was ten years ago. Soon it will be wall to wall concrete. The resources are stretched too thin. We need some serious control on immigration.

[amandabeech]

52. Thanks for the reply.

I have raised the same issue in other immigration threads, but yours is the only response.

It would be great if we lived in a magical world in which our territory and resources expanded with every new immigrant. In that case, we could invite many, many more people to enjoy what we have here.

But we live in the real world. That means much lower immigration, as you pointed out.

[Megahurtz]

82. And California as well. n/t

[Richard Steele]

61. Oh PUH-LEEZE! The US is 5% of world population using 25% of the resources.

But suddenly you are concerned about "our" resources
when our population goes up by less than 2%?

You "welcome some diversity",
and state that immigrants "usually end up finding a roof to go over their heads".

There's a lot in your post that is very telling,
and what it's telling is NOT a tale of tolerance.

[amandabeech]

72. I've been concerned with issues concerning sufficient water

and agricultural land resources since the 1970s when I was in college. We do not use 25% of those basics.

Apparently you dislike my deliberately understated writing style.

This is will be my only response to your post.

[GirlinContempt]

65. Stopping immigration doesn't stop the number of people

alive in the world. If that is your REAL issue, then recognize that many of the countries these immigrants are from are victims of the United States quest for more resources to feed it's already bloated population. The exploitation of poor and underdeveloped countries to feed the US machine is nothing new, and it isn't going away. Stopping these people from entering your country does NOTHING to address the real issue, which is the number of resources being used PERIOD, not to mention the ways and means of obtaining them at the expense of people all over the world.

[amandabeech]

73. My post states nothing about resources other than water and

agricultural land inside the United States.

You apparently are asking about my opinions on subjects not covered by my post. So here they are:

My opinion on other resources is that we here in the U.S. use far, far too much of the resources found in other countries and are in the process of overexploiting those existing within our own borders. My information on other countries' exploitation of their resources is not as good, but what I have read suggests that many countries are as interested in over-exploitation as we are.

I generally abhor U.S. foreign policy, and have since the Vietnam War.

I am concerned that even with considerable reductions in the level of resource consumption in wealthier countries, the human population of this beautifull planet has exceeded capacity. I hold some U.S. administrations responsible for some overpopulation due to lack of support for international family planning NGOs.

Please do not assume that a person holding one position automatically holds other positions. You'll miss a lot of interesting folk that way.

Edit: grammar

[GirlinContempt]

74. But, there is exploitation of water in other countries

as well as issues regarding agriculture. I think this does apply to your post, because it is the appetite for resources that is the main issue I see, not just the availability in one area. Also, many many factors affect things like water supply aside from personal consumption. So, I think it's fair to say that, if your concern is about arable land and water, dealing with the issues of overconsumption and exploitation are more important than worrying about population growth by immigration. Pollution does more damage than increased population. Now, increased population will increase pollution, given, but the root cause of the pollution is the bigger issue, at home and abroad.



The Conchos river located in Chihuahua state on a semiarid region is the most important Mexican river contributing water deliveries to USA as established by the Water treaty of 1944 signed between Mexico and USA. Historically, Mexico has delivered to UNITED STATES 550 Hm3 (445,549.5 ACF) per year of water since the treaty was established, which is 25% above the yearly water volume Mexico is required to deliver.
....from 1992 to 2001 Mexico had accumulated a water treaty deficit of 2111.6 Hm3 (1,710,586 ACF). This has conduced to economic, social, and political difficulties in both countries.
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm05/fm05-sessions/fm05_H23B.html

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Megahurtz]

37. For Sure! n/t

[countryjake]

47. Did you forget a sarcasm tag or are you serious?

[jseankil]

55. I think U.S. boarders should be protected

Building a wall is likely part of doing that.

Do you have a problem with that?

[countryjake]

76. Is that like renter's insurance? We have tenant unions to protect boarders

I have a problem with slanderous hateful stereotypes.

Allowing and promoting blatant discrimination is what our country needs to be careful to protect against!

[Lindacooks]

38. Gee, maybe we should have been nicer to 'minorities' all

along, huh?

And everything changes, including the makeup of the ethnicity of the world. How exactly is this scary? More brown people??

[countryjake]

48. When the ship comes in...

lots are gonna wish they hadn't been so blatant in their bigotry.


A song will lift
As the mainsail shifts
And the boat drifts on to the shoreline.
And the sun will respect
Every face on the deck,
The hour that the ship comes in.

[Megahurtz]

63. "Minorities"???

:rofl:

Seriously now, I don't know where you live but, look all around you, who is the minority?

The "minority" claim is just a little bit outdated if you ask me!

[countryjake]

78. That was the point that she was making...

As either minorities or majorities of any population, (who have been discriminated against by whatever faction holds power), become organized, unite, and take action to demand their civil rights, those who have oppressed them may rue the day that bigotry became standard fare as a method to hold people down.

I'm sure there are many shaking in their shoes, as the tide shifts.

They'll pinch themselves and squeal, and they'll know that it's for real.

[The_Casual_Observer]

51. It's all about encouraging cheap labor.

Keeping wages down.

[Jed Dilligan]

53. Amnesty doesn't = voting rights

Bush wants a population of subjects, not citizens.

[Seabiscuit]

77. *******L*I*N*K******* ????????

N/T

[sofa king]

81. I think it's great.

I'm not really happy that so much of our immigration is illegal, but new blood (and, I suppose, an inevitable subculture of resentment) is what this country is based upon. New people bring new ideas and a profound appreciation for what we have and what we can do. Many of our first-generation Americans have been some of our very best Americans, and their kids are sometimes even better (did you know that Ted Williams was of Mexican descent?).

I don't really care where they come from so long as they try their best to pick up some of the good aspects of our society and give us back some of the good parts of their old culture; I don't care about their race or ethnicity or religion. I'm not worried that our culture will change--in fact I really hope that it does. I'm not even hung up on the language thing anymore since I'm pretty sure that within a decade or two we'll have babelfish-like translators which will allow all people to converse.

It makes me happy to know that we have the space and the wealth to accomodate peoples from all over the earth, and allow them the chance to do the things they always wished to do. When people have a real shot at chasing their dreams they create magnificent things, and those things become our things. Immigration is in some ways just like our space program: it pays back in wonderful and sometimes difficult to quantify ways, many times more than what we put into it. I hope we continue to foster it.

[Finder]

97. Great post. n/t

[entanglement]

84. I'll ask you a few questions

Have you ever met an immigrant? When you think 'immigrant' do you visualize someone with a different skin color than yours? Why do you think these people (fellow humans) are a threat to you? Has the thought 'these people are taking over' crossed your mind?

Most likely, you're answers are no, yes, yes and yes, in that order. Your answers to the last three questions would be different if you'd ever interacted significantly with an immigrant as an equal, a human being with dignity, rather than as an 'invader'.

[GirlinContempt]

91. ahem

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/04/05/fiorephobia.DTL

[genieroze]

92. If this crap keeps up we will be on the same level as Mexico economically.

I guess we all can then sneak over the border into Canada and take their jobs for lower wages. Maybe if there was a Chavez type running the Mexican government they wouldn't need to come here. We could immigrate over there. lol

[Megahurtz]

101. Haha!

That's the point I've been trying to make to others on the thread!
You know that Canada wouldn't put up with that for a second! Lol!

Thanks for adding some simple logic here, maybe I should have just said it like you did! :hi:

[treestar]

107. Oh, horrors!

I guess the middle east really is quiet again. Time to trot out the immigrants as the demons again.

:sarcasm:

[Akim]

108. Solution! Establish a "Free-Zone" from the Mexican border to the ...

Canadian border (say one mile wide and stretching the entire breath of the continental U.S.). That way the Mexican migrants can be diverted to Canada, which not only has a larger land mass than the U.S. but is severely underpopulated (having one-tenth the inhabitants of the U.S.).

If Canada objects, let's just invade it. Get the business of the War of 1812 finally over with.