UN Attacks Look Deliberate: Annan

[MsKandice01]

UN attacks looks deliberate: Annan
From correspondents in Rome

July 26, 2006 08:33am

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan today said he was "shocked" at Israel's "apparently deliberate targeting" of a UN post in Lebanon, in which up to four UN observers were killed.

Mr Annan described the strike as a "co-ordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long established and clearly marked UN post." He said it took place "despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would be spared Israeli fire."

"Furthermore, General Alain Pelligrini, the UN Force Commander in south Lebanon, had been in repeated contact with Israeli officers throughout the day on Tuesday, stressing the need to protect that particular UN position from attack.

"I call on the Government of Israel to conduct a full investigation into this very disturbing incident and demand that any further attack on UN positions and personnel must stop.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,19916610-5005961,00.html

Wow!

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Looks like Isreal

wants the UN out of Lebanon. That why there will be fewer witnesses.

[atfqn]

28. My very first thought as well.

Israel has the right to defend itself from water/electrical systems, roads, bridges, buildings, ambulances, U.N. outposts and any witnesses (civilians) it can find. <obvious sarcasm folks>

Information Clearing House has a graphic look at what is going on.

Viewer warning!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14180.htm

[earthside]

41. Phosphorus and Cluster Bombs

Since Israel is apparently using illegal phosphorus and cluster munitions -- indeed, they cannot have official witnesses around.

So, blow 'em up.

[saigon68]

58. Its just Rice telling Kofi Annan that he'd better be Bushes Butt Boy

KindaSleezy loves KILLING she's learning to be like John Negroponte (The nun rapist)

[bdamomma]

114. those bombs come from our country

[Richard Steele]

150. Not surprising from the nation which holds the record...

for "Most UN resolutions violated".

[WatchWhatISay]

2. And now the crucifixion will begin

and the crucifixion will be televised

[adarling]

3. wow, what the hell is going on?

Now is someone going to have the balls to do something about this, this has gotten ridiculous and shows how inept the world's governments have become.

[tabasco]

4. There's no possibility it was an accident.

Aircraft and arty don't hit the same target by mistake.

Good God - how crazy can Israel get?

[MissWaverly]

13. it's the neocons trying to stoke another war

so they can use up them nukes!

[Demeter]

43. With the 3 Stooges Egging on Israel, One Can Only Shudder

There are too many madmen and Condi in the world.

[MannyGoldstein]

45. It Could Be An Accident

It could be a mistake made at a higher level, so that the bad information moved down to multiple recipients.

[Spazito]

47. There seems to be an INORDINATE number of "mistakes"

This is not the first UN incident not to mention multiple ambulances, innocent civilians' vehicles fleeing south Lebanon, etc. I could add more but I think my point is made.

[MannyGoldstein]

51. It's Difficult When Hezbollah Hides Behind Civilians

Hezbollah hides among and behind civilians, which makes things difficult.

[FredScuttle]

53. So, kill civilians is the answer?

n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

56. Nobody Said That Killing Civilians is the Answer

The Israelis beleive that the least-awful alternative is to attack Hezbollah.

Very sadly, because Hezbollah has decided to use civilians to hide, some civilians will die and be wounded. I personally believe that Israel takes this into account and tries to avoid civilian casualties.

[bennywhale]

95. Israelis accused of human shield tactic - BBC What like this???

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5212870.stm

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

Is this the least awful way to conduct searches?????

[stranger81]

146. are you saying there were

Hizballah hiding in the UN building, standing alone on the top of a rise and clearly marked in black letters with the word "U.N." on all sides?

If not, what exactly are you saying? We've all heard that old chestnut before about the "terrorists" hiding amongst civilians, thus requiring the killing of civilians as well. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, IMHO.

[PaulaFarrell]

158. But this was a UN post

Hezbollah wasn't hiding there and Israel knew that.

[Spazito]

63. Sorry, I don't buy it, Israel can't have it both ways...

Either they have weaponry with pin-point accuracy, as has been boasted about, which would mean the UN post was deliberately hit or they are indescriminately bombing with no accuracy. Which one is it?

[ShockediSay]

71. Lotta bloodlust in the IDF IMHO

A throwback to their ancestors from the Stern Gang, Irgun and the like - - terrorists by any measure.

And their Israel Lobby has corrupted our government and its foreign policy into murderous complicity.

[Recursion]

81. Agreed -- both sides need to stop hiding behind civilians

That means Israel needs to demolish its forward settlements, and Hezbollah needs to clear out of villages.

I don't see either one happening.

[Ghost Dog]

91. No. Hezbollah is part Lebanese/Palestinian refugee society,

in the same or a similar way that the Israeli Defence Forces are part of Israeli society.

Surely the same would apply to any forces defending their home territory.

Actually, isn't there indeed a difference here: Hizbollah fighters appear to be volunteers, while many Israeli fighters are conscripts?

[Warren Stupidity]

94. A UN post? Hezbollah was hiding in the UN post?

Is that your point? Perhaps Hezbollah was hiding in the ambulance the IDF blew up too. Or perhaps in the refugees fleeing, at the command of the IDF, or perhaps in the Christian neighborhoods of Beirut that were blown up. Perhaps Israeli reservists are hiding among and behind the civilians of Hiafa too. It is so easy to excuse the crimes and blame the victims.

[lvx35]

99. Took the words out of my mouth.

Hezbollah is hiding in UN posts. How can anybody imply these things with a strait face?

[AnOhioan]

109. Yeah...Hezbollah is really adept at hiding amongst UN forces

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. Ah, the Kaiser Soze Conundrum-Resolving Method. How sweet.

If you watched "The Usual Suspects," you know what I mean.

[theanarch]

153. oh, really?

and, in this instance, the insinuation is that Hezbollah was hiding behind the UN outpost? Sorry, but bullshit: the post has been there for years, was clearly known to the IDF; the UN commander was in constant radio contact with the IDF, and the IDF had given repeated assurances regarding the safety of the outpost. Of course, it COULD be an "accident", in which case that doesn't say very much for the much vaunted "professionalism" of the IDF and the pains they allegedly take to avoid collateral damage. You can't have your cake and eat it too: If the IDF is a professional army, then the attack was deliberate; if they're a bunch of incompetents, then they aren't making any effort to spare civilians. Which is it?

[Recursion]

80. If the air and artillery both hit, they meant to hit it

You don't both "oops" in the same place. Somebody called that mission. If that person knew that was a UN location, that person essentially declared war on the entire world. The best set of facts that could come out for Israel was a massive intel screw-up that didn't get the commander that called the mission the correct info on the status of that location. Which is probably how they'll spin it, but it's still not good at all.

[KitSileya]

107. Oh, yes it's an accident even tho' the UN post called 10 times

to warn the Israeli liaison to warn that the aerial attacks were getting close to their position!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2413881

and

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.main/index.html

[Orion The Hunter]

123. Bottom line is...

...Israel boasted of its precision munitions and still hit UN and other civillian targets (even after warnings from the UN). Israel doesn't seem too worried about civillian casualties so long as it gets Hezbollah.

[PaulaFarrell]

157. Not the first time

They also killed UN people in the first Lebanese war

[bunyip]

164. Yes, they attacked UN peacekeepers

protecting refugees. And then shelled the refugees for twenty minutes while claiming it was a mistake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling

[ecstatic]

5. Wow. Telling it like it is

I'm tired of the media acting as if we're always supposed to give people the benefit of the doubt regarding incidents like this (and 911, etc).

[Dover]

8. It would have been impossible to stifle Annan's response to a major

incident involving the U.N.

I don't think the media has suddenly grown a halo.

[Dover]

6. The U.N. headquarters was blown up in Iraq too. Get the message U.N.?

The American/Britain/Israel alliance doesn't want you interfering.

[Sanity Claws]

7. Israel also hit a Red Cross ambulance

People suspected it was not a mistake. This hit on the UN makes it looks like Israel will whoever, whatever gets in its way.
I'm disgusted. Remember they're doing it with American arms.

[Dover]

10. Actually they've hit SEVERAL ambulances that are clearly marked

on their roofs. Nobody believes it was a mistake.

[elehhhhna]

22. yes. Ambulai. Plural.

[semillama]

128. Heck, I saw a picture of an ambulance

with the entry hole for the munition that destroyed DEAD CENTER in the red cross on the roof. Talk about precision targeting...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

9. Bolton must have called Olmert...

The story does nothing but get worse each day.

[stranger81]

147. that's what they sent Condi over there to do Monday

give IDF the green light to do whatever the hell they like, as wantonly as they please. And yes, with our weapons.

Fucking obscene.

[Canuckistanian]

11. Does Hezbollah hide out in UN posts now?

I'd like to see Israel defend this in the General Assembly.

[stepnw1f]

16. Nah... The UN is a Group of "Hezbollah Lovers"

and "anti-semitic" to boot.:sarcasm:

[K8-EEE]

25. They Use Ambulances & UN Outposts As "Human Shields"

Honestly this Israeli propaganda at this point, zero credibility. They are just acting psycho.

[Tom Joad]

88. That's right. Israel has no shame. Beyond Chutzpah.

[wakeme2008]

12. Israel has IMHO now jumped the shark.

:grr:

[BadGimp]

14. This is very disturbing

Why on earth would Isreal do this diliberately?

[Henny Penny]

19. They were UN observers...

Israel does not want to be observed.

Target the observers whether they are UN or AP...

[anotherdrew]

37. this is the SECOND attack on the UN so far, expect more n/t

[bunyip]

165. Why on earth did Israel

attack the CIA listening ship USS Liberty?

www.ussliberty.org/

Why? They wanted no witnesses.

[goforit]

15. WTF Israelis don't abide by laws.

[bdamomma]

116. they must be using bush's handbook

[lebkuchen]

17. We did fed-ex them precision guided missiles, did we not

[leesa]

40. You mean the ones programed to find wedding parties and sleeping

families?

[lebkuchen]

170. aka Smart Bombs

Thems the ones!

[w4rma]

18. This is going to be the last straw for many folks. Israel's neo-con

leadership will not be able to talk themselves out of this one.

[Cocoa]

20. Israel has the right to defend herself

how do we know the UN isn't there to rocket Haifa? :sarcasm:

[anotherdrew]

38. stop referring to the damn country as a woman, it's definitely an IT

[ronnie624]

166. I find the practice irritating as well. n/t

[number6]

21. as the world burns ....

kaboom :nuke: am I in the twilight zone
or outer limits ....

[babylonsister]

23. Very apt description, number6. nt

[K8-EEE]

24. Israel Is Allowed Endless Amounts Of "Ooopsies" RE: Killing

Everything they do is in "self-defense" or "inadvertent."

Fuck that. Just like BushCo, no accountablity whatseover, they have a Carte Blanche.

[saigon68]

154. They can kill as many Ragheads as they want

They have the Chimp's & Halliburton's Blessing

[MsKandice01]

26. I showed this article to one of my rabidly pro-Israel bosses

And he gave me some crap about, "I'm sure it was a mistake. Hezbollah had rockets right next to the UN Post! I'm sure they didn't mean to hit the UN." Then when I brought up the fact that Annan said it was a co-ordinated artillery and air strike, he said, "The media says it was only an airstrike! Annan is obviously mistaken. He's not a big fan of Israel, you know."

Then I brought up the ambulances. Same stuff. "Well, you know, Palestinians have been known to hide out in ambulances."

It was at that point where I had to turn around and leave his office before I said something that would get me fired.

[lumpy]

59. How does hezbollah get ahold of those

UN or Red Cross ambulances? They must have to wrest them away from UN personel. Doesn't make sense and is certainly inhumane that wounded people in those anbulances have to be killed in order to get a couple of the enemy who might or not be hiding in there ( almost funny, those sneaky Hezbollah guys slipping into an ambulance unseen). Oh I know, they get hold of UN type ambulnce vehicals, get a bunch of paint, hire an expert logo painter nd there you go. And of course the IDF would have no way of telling whether it is a legitimate UN vehicle or not. Oh well, take no chances fire away.

[lvx35]

101. How do people like that not choke on the crap?

My boss is the same way...It gets to this point of wanting to be win the argument reality be damned, and every principle or concern about what's happening in reality is set aside. If he says its lemonade, he'll damn well drink the toilet water and like it.

[stranger81]

148. The IDF routinely bombs Red Crescent ambulances

(the equivalent of the Red Cross in Palestine) in the occupied territories. Not a new tactic for them -- just another crass exhibition of the IDF's utter disregard for human life and unrelenting targeting of the most vulnerable.

[MrPrax]

27. Deliberate...Like November 2002

British UN worker unlawfully shot

A British UN project manager shot by an Israeli sniper was unlawfully killed, a UK inquest has concluded. Iain Hook, 54, of Felixstowe, Suffolk, was in a UN compound in Jenin when he was shot in November 2002.

On Friday, jurors unanimously agreed Mr Hook, who was born in Essex, had been the victim of a "deliberate" killing.
....
Earlier Dr Peter Hansen, former Commissioner General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said that over the past four years 13 UNRWA workers, including Mr Hook, had been shot in similar circumstances by the Israeli army.

Mr Hook was the only non-Palestinian.

On Monday in a statement Paul Wolstenholme, a colleague of Mr Hook who was in the compound at time of the shooting, said the Israeli special forces sniper would have known Mr Hook was not a Palestinian.

"It was not a case of mistaken identity, it was a deliberate act," he said.

BBC
____________

Why was an unarmed Briton shot in the back?

Six months after an Israeli sniper killed a top UN official, his family still wait for answers

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday May 7, 2003
The Guardian

Six months ago, Jack Straw sounded as if he really meant to lay bare how an Israeli army sniper came to shoot an unarmed British former army officer in the back.

The foreign secretary said "everything" would be done to ensure a thorough investigation into the killing of Iain Hook, the head of a UN project to reconstruct the obliterated heart of the Jenin refugee camp. But today Mr Hook's colleagues accuse Israel of covering up "cold-blooded murder", and Britain and the UN of complicity by quietly trying to bury the truth to avoid a political confrontation.

The day after the sniper shot Mr Hook as he stood in the UN compound in Jenin last November, Israel promised Mr Straw a full account of the killing. Now Israel says its inquiry has been "put aside".

The UN launched its own investigation but its report so disturbed staff, who called it a whitewash, that it was rewritten and the final version has not been made public. Meanwhile, the Foreign Office has retreated from Mr Straw's pledge and brushes aside questions about the failure to explain the killing as a private matter for the Hook family.

Guardian

Go Fuck Yourself...Kofi

You let the US and Israel piss all over YOU and your Organization for the entire time of your pathetic tenure...you are an absolute disgrace and part of the problem.

Let's not forget that this creature WAS the Undersecretary-General for Peacekeeping Operations during Rwanda and one of the chief reasons, according to Romeo Dallaire's book, that UN troops were utterly abandoned by this American favoured UN puppet.

You got to be nuts to put on a blue beret if this guy is in charge -- if deployed in Lebanon, Israel will kill them.

[oasis]

87. "Jenin". How soon we forget. (eom)

[uppityperson]

29. How could Israel think this would play out positive?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. At this point...

I don't think they give a rat's ass about "how it plays out".

After all, they have the US squarely in their corner and essentially have carte blanche to do as they wish -- bomb ambulances?, no problem, bomb fleeing civiliams?, hey do what you have to do, use phospherus weapons on childen?, that's a big oh well, murder four UN inspectors?, we don;t like the UN anyway. I ask you -- who the fuck is going to stop them? :shrug:

[anotherdrew]

34. "who the fuck is going to stop them?" they better hope they dont find out

because this will be stopped, come what may, this will be stopped.

[lvx35]

102. damn strait. nt

[uppityperson]

35. there is no excuse for this.

sort of like how Mr.bush and his evil minions don't give a rat's ass about anything except that which immediately and directly impacts them, or their money in the future. How (rhetorical here) can people not see?

[MsMagnificent]

169. They simply don't care

Period.

Who's going to stop them, anyhow?
This administration? This "Culture of Life" administration, who'd "rather err on the side of life"?
They freak out about 20 frozen cells in a test tube, but when it comes to slaughtering hundreds of civilians -- no problemo! Go for it! In fact, give Israel the weaponry!
Absolute power corrupts absolutely said Lord Acton, and the reality is for the past 20 years Israel has ALL the military power in that area; supplied by her --sorry, It's-- "best friend"
US.

So for that matter, NO U.S. administration has ever nor would ever do anything but enable "that poor little country".:puke:
The Israel lobby has hoodwinked our government --and most of its people-- for decades. And what of the latest, of the many, Israel spying on Washington flaps?
*poof* right down the memory hole

It's all been one single recycled lie that we keep believing again & again, just like the USS Liberty attack: Israel gets big-eyed, prevaricates through their teeth 'Oh, we had NO idea! Of COURSE it's just a TERRIBLE accident, and if you say it isn't then you're an anti-semite!'

So we've not said a thing.
...unless it's something like even our own Hillary telling Israel 'every American stands behind them'.
Pardon while I :puke: again


Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it, so said Santayana;
and America sure has one powerful learning disability where one certain Middle East nation is concerned.

I cannot help but wonder since this latest fresh hell started over the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers (never-mind Israel kidnaps 2 just before that -- we're not supposed to care when its done by them!):
What if the US responded in kind over the attack on the USS Liberty?
How many American soldiers were killed? 34 I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong, the USS Liberty page won't open.

So, with reciprocity and (comparative) balance in mind and everything that's being touted by this administration and the pundits... what should have been the US' fitting response?


Funny how different answers are, what with countries right and duty to defend itself, aggression, 'Just War'
and factor in a whole lot of lobbyists, propaganda and unbelievably, US citizens who are much more patriotic towards another country than their own.

[mom cat]

30. Condi wants NATO in South Lebanon, not the UN!

[anotherdrew]

33. what condi wants is of no interest to ANYONE n/t

[tabasco]

85. THAT is really friggin' stupid.

They obviously want to start a larger war.

[anotherdrew]

32. there is no excuse for this, Israel should be ejected from the UN for this

wanton murder

[54anickel]

46. Do you think Israel would care if they were ejected at this point? The

UN is now irrelevant, immaterial, and soon to be non-existent once Bolton finishes what he was put in there for.

[anotherdrew]

52. so what if they don't care? it should be done anyway

with luck bolton won't be returning to the UN

[54anickel]

57. OK, but I'd rather that something be done to stop the destruction of

Lebanon first and that they face charges for war crimes and crimes against humanity second. I'd rather do something to first stop the bloodshed and then do something they would care about. Taking their seat away at the UN just seems petty at this point in time, especially if they don't care anyway.

[uppityperson]

36. CNN link

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.main/index.html

[54anickel]

48. Do I understand this part correctly, that they are going to occupy

southern Lebanon again? Let me guess, the northern border will be the Litani river.

The IDF hopes to create a "security zone" in southern Lebanon until an international force arrives, said Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

"If there is not a multinational force that will get in to control the fences, we will continue to control with our fire towards anyone that gets close to the defined security zone and they will know that they can be hurt," he said.

[Nothing Without Hope]

55. Oh, and just incidentally, that will include the Lebanese WATER they want:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1696420
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1698430

Israel has been after the important springs on the other side of the Lebanese border for YEARS.

[54anickel]

60. Yeah, my sister is a "fundie", though not the "Israel does no wrong"

type (they do exist). Even they have known about the water rights issues for quite sometime. She mentioned it to me a couple of years back, saying almost all of the problems in Israel revolve around water issues. I had assumed her church was a strong "right or wrong" supporter of Israel and the whole "holy land", "the Bible says" idea. I was surprised when she shared their views of the ME and the I/P conflict.

My ex-family were fundies but somehow believed they needed to protect Israel, right or wrong. I assumed it was in some attempt to put off the end times or to win favors with the man upstairs. Not sure if it's just her church that different or if the entire fundie teachings have somehow changed over the last 20 years.

But hey, I've gotten way off topic....Thanks for the links.

[lvx35]

103. No, that's way ON topic...fundies drive the suport for Israel.

Combined with the influence of AIPAC, its why Israel owns US politics. There are two theological movements behind it, one is a literalist take focusing on the old testament which states that Israel is God's chosen people, and God punishes them with conquest when they are evil, the other states that Israel is instrumental in EVOKING the end times, and will be consumed in a great conflaguation when the end times come...Fundies cheer the violence in the middle east not because they want to keep armegedon back, but because they want it to come so they can all go to heaven and all the sinners will sit around here consumed by hoards of locusts and sores. Israeli government is happy to provide the action, as when it comes, the US money flows into AIPAC from scared US jews, which flows into congress, who, representing israel's only ally exert their power over israeli polics to ensure that assclowns stay in place. The people paying the cost for this game are really the jews and muslims.

[Nothing Without Hope]

111. YVW. There's also a BOOK on how water rights look to become the new

basis for future wars around the world, especially as global warming dries up previously reliable sources. Here's the BuzzFlash review:

http://www.buzzflash.com/store/reviews/276

[Spazito]

64. Yes, the leaflets dropped in south Lebanon told the civilians to

move NORTH of the Litani River, just a coincidence, I am sure, NOT.

[MrPrax]

67. One was a Canadian

A senior Lebanese military official said the dead included observers from Canada, Austria, China and Finland.
CTV

[Spazito]

70. Yes, and here is an article about a UN peacekeeper that may

well be the Canadian that is reported to have died. It is thanks to DUer Marie26 who provided the link:

A Canadian soldier's report from South Lebanon
Updated Wed. Jul. 19 2006 10:58 AM ET


After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah, and the subsequent bombing campaign began against Lebanon, we received an email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, a Canadian Forces soldier serving with the UN in South Lebanon.


"If you are interested in a Canadian perspective on the events of yesterday and what is happening here in the area I am serving in, I can provide some concise info for you about the current situation," he wrote.


With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedener is the only Canadian serving as a United Nations Military Observer in Lebanon. He is stationed at the UN base about 10 kilometres from where the Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli borders meet. The UN's mission there is to report ceasefire violations.

Here is his full email, written July 18, with background on the mission and the current situation:

more

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718

[independentpiney]

126. For those who haven't read the canadians email

the last part of it reads:
What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718

War sucks. Peace to Maj Kruedener and all the victims of mans inhumanity to man.

[Spazito]

132. It looks like we will never know if he would still believe that...

given the pleas sent out to the Israelis to protect the post and the promises to stop firing on them JUST PRIOR to the DIRECT hit that destroyed the post and killed the UN observers, including, it seems likely, the man who wrote that e-mail.

[MrPrax]

129. Smells fake...

The line at the end about it NOT being deliberate.

Why or how he would KNOW that since he would have been getting it from BOTH sides. Anyone can send a email and this one reads more like a press release. Besides, it was written on July 18? It might have been the case LAST WEEK.

So Israel has killed half as many Canadians as Afghans have...pathetic.

[Spazito]

131. I don't believe it's fake at all

I may dislike the slant CanWest/CTV takes but this would be too easy to disprove were it to be fake, first and foremost by his family who reside in Canada. His wife has yet to hear from him since the bombing of the UN post.

[MrPrax]

135. Family?

Well the email was sent to CTV -- not his family. Secondly this is not a email a soldier would send the family anyway -- a few media outlets in Canada probably got the same press release. As I can tell, CTV is the only one publishing it and none of the other outlets have cited it.

I have no doubt he's dead -- so that would be why his wife didn't hear from him.

But as far as proving it fake...that would be easy.

But it was published on the 18th, so being true...his observations are only good up to that point. He might have thought that on July 17th, there was no deliberate attempt to attack the post. The events on the ground yesterday as reported really suggest it was deliberately targetted and was hit at the precise time Rice's plane left Israel.

It was Israel's attempt to send a message to Rome meeting and of course with predicatable results the Rome talks broke down on this issue...the talks are stalled as Israel and the US wanted and stated from last week. Israel will do what it wants.

[Spazito]

136. So, are you now saying that it is more likely real and not fake?

As to the rest of your points, no argument from me on them.

[MrPrax]

138. Does it matter...

It was from the 18th...it's now the 25th. What was then, is not necessarily what is now.

My gut tells me that it probably is not on the level. MySpace is huge and it was knocked out for days simply because of rolling blackouts, as were a few.

Some UN post 10kms from the three borders has working internet access that Israel would allow? I would suspect that any communications from the Major at that post would have checked and approved by his superiors. I can't imagine UN policy being that anyone wearing a blue beret in the field can write emails to the media with authorization.

[Spazito]

140. I'm sorry but you are only espousing a bunch of what-ifs, nothing

that would, in any way, point to the e-mail being a fake. Until there is anything remotely resembling evidence to the contrary, there is NO reason to believe that e-mail is fake at all.

The fact that there was an article containing an e-mail from him and now, it is more and more probable, he is dead from the bombs he was discussing, it does matter.

[MrPrax]

143. Strange...

You don't as a matter of course discount military communications during a military action? OK...

But while we are on the subject of 'evidence'...there is a lot of it out there.

Like the fact that Israel is lying through it's teeth as the kidnapping actually occured because a Israeli commando team met up with Hezbelluah fighters near Aitaa al-Chaab DEEP INSIDE Lebanon. Hez kicked their ass, killed them, blew up their tank and took two prisoners. If Hez is shocked at Israel's response, then one can imagine why.

Now if you recall -- there was lots of evidence offered...like tunnels, border outposts, accusations of outrage -- but all those reports turned out to be false. Lots of military communiques...in addition to direct censorship and control of all reporting in the region by Israel.

Now I am reading Haaretz...

"...At UN headquarters in New York, Annan said he was "trying to get the details" of the attack.

Annan said there were 14 other incidents of Israeli gunfire directed at the targeted area Tuesday afternoon. "The firing continued even during the rescue operation," he said.
Haaretz

Now if you want to accept everything from the jaundice view that it's probably right until you see evidence otherwise, I am not sure you have a right to tell me to think it's probably wrong until I see evidence otherwise...

This is the only difference in our positions.

Media news services post a lot of shit on their sites and the majority of which is slanted or simply propaganda provided by official channels.

Sorry if I see the 'high' potential of this being propaganda produced during wartime.

Sorry,if I think the tone of this press release seems a little off.

Sorry I find it odd that CTV would label it as an 'email' which gives it a folksy quality of authenticity when it is a press release.

Sorry I find it odd that during a shell barrage and invasion, a UN official is explaining 'background' while enjoying a 'pause'.

Sorry I find it strange that in the accompanying article that CTV decides authenticate it by mentioning, "Maj H.v.K" as he signs his emails, is an infantry officer with 20 years service." How would we know and why would this be important to the readers? Is CTV trying to convince itself of something?

Sorry I find a statement like this: "Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre." a little odd. Is the good Major and the UN being accused of something? Is he writing this 'email' to answer critics? Why would a UN observer writing to the media have to point this out to the media that it is suppose to be impartial? It's UN peacekeeping --goes without saying

Sorry I find a statement like this:This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity. rather odd. Why would he want to get this on the record? Who is he talking about? Which side? How would he know that it was a tactical necessity unless he was privy to command information? He states he can't give 'tactical information'...but then in order to make this categorical statement, he does just that...describes the type and location of shells and bombs and how close they came to the building? That's not tactical information?

It's smells...that's all.

[Spazito]

144. Whoa, I think we are posting at cross purposes here...

My only point was to say I didn't think the e-mail in the article was fake, it was NOT to defend what Israel did in deliberately targeting the UN post, I FULLY believe that to be the case. I believe the Canadian UN observer sent the e-mail in the article from HIS perspective at the time. I am, in NO way, saying that his perspective was what happened the day the bombs killed the 4 observers of whom, it looks increasingly likely, he was one.

[leesa]

39. Good luck with that investigation. Kofi. Maybe Rumsfeld can investigate

it for you.

[ozone_man]

42. What other conclusion can be drawn?

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply distressed" by the "apparently deliberate" strike.

Israel is little more than a military extension of the U.S. in that region.

[Pavulon]

61. Possibility 1 of many...

Target is misidentified at enemy position by forward observer and fire mission is ordered.

Target coordinates for a safe spot are accidentally fed into system and accidentally hit.

Counter battery radar picked up a rocket fired close by and returned artillery fired. This is a short list.

There are many reasons the wrong people are killed in war. There are reasons we kill our OWN forces.

We bombed canadians, killed our own aircraft and shot our own troops. We have killed the wrong people in EVERY war we ever fought.

Deliberate attack of a un post is last on the list of reasons that make sense given israels past restraint.

[Flanker]

77. Your apology makes no sense

This site is well known by Israeli forces friendly fire generally occurs on non-identifiable forces.

[daleo]

82. I gather there was both artillery and aircraft bombs/missiles

When you have to put together a string of coincidences to account for something as an accident, it is usually more sensible to assume it is deliberate. By all means, Israel can explain in detail what went wrong, just as the U.S. Air Force did to Canada after killing those soldiers. There could even be an inquiry, a pilot could be brought up on charges, etc., just as in the Canada-U.S. case.

You are aware that Israel hit a UN refugee camp in 1997 killing over 100 people, I hope. Once is an accident, twice is starting to look more than just careless.

As for motive, this comes to mind. The U.S. and Israel would probably prefer to have an international force under NATO (read U.S.) command than the U.N. This is an excellent way to dissuade countries from contributing to a U.N. force, thus making NATO the default choice. The NATO mission can then be extended by stages, to morph into a U.S. mission against Syria and/or Iran.

[Marie26]

130. Uh-huh

And Kofi Annan is just a rabble-rouser who goes around making unsupported allegations. Except he isn't like that at all. He is a calm, professional, diplomatic man. For him to make a statement like this, there must be some pretty strong evidence it was intentional.

[stranger81]

149. "israel's past restraint"?

in what way would that be?

that line almost made me choke on my lunch.

[bdamomma]

117. Israel has the total backing of our RW government

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

142. Other way around

We're a military extension of Israel.

Part of the neo-con mission in the Middle East is to make Israel the only military power in the region.

[ozone_man]

145. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

I think it's a mutual relationship. Which is tail and which is dog is not so clear.

[Reckon]

44. This gives the beach incident

a whole new perspective.

[Pavulon]

62. The one with the mine

According to Israel and photos the blast was caused by a buried mine, not a 155 airburst.

155 is set to airburst so as to kill as many people as possible. Not to blow up on the ground.

That was an own goal incident..

[Poll_Blind]

68. No, it was a 155mm shell. They pulled the 155mm shell shrapnel...

...out of the victims. Even the part with that said "155mm". They launched 6 shells onto a 250-meter stretch of the beach. Six shells each with a 50-meter kill zone and 100-meter casualty zone. On the same 250-meter stretch of beach. Again, all six shels fired along the same, contiguous, 250-meter stretch of beach. Again, each shell with 50-meter kill zone, 100-meter casualty zone. Google News is your friend. Human Rights Watch is, too. Really!

PB

[Pavulon]

75. nope

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

Here is a link..

airbust does not crater.


HRW is not s reliable source for military information.

Either way, they are casualties of war. If the shells that killed them were counter battery that makes their death the terrible cost of war.

[Encore]

83. But Human Rights Watch

said its investigation of the incident came up with opposite conclusions in almost every case.
why would they lie??

if they weren't lying, why would israel investigators lie?? ...oh

[Scurrilous]

73. Bullshit.

You don't know what you're talking about. There was NO mine. Israel floated that canard after the beach massacre and attending outcry threatened to cloud Olmert's visit to Europe. They quickly discarded it after independent forensic evidence showed that an Israeli shell was responsible. They then tried to say the explosion was the result of a buried dud Israeli artillery shell that sympathetically exploded while the IDF was shelling nearby.

There's plenty of threads about this in the I/P forum. I suggest you read-up and quit catapulting the single-mine theory.

[Pavulon]

76. Either way

casualties of war. Untargetted, accidental killings. Own gal by hamas or mistarget by israel. speaks volumes on war.

Unlike those killed by blind fired rockets.

Killing of those not involved in combat is bad. But happens in war.

I have chosen my side, I will not defend illegal action, but given the players in this conflict I have clearly stated my position.

Lots of folks have not.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1799825,00.html

I see no conclusive evidence anywhere.

[Encore]

84. Untargeted

or target practice?

[Amonester]

127. Looks like there R fascist Israelis (like there R fascists in ...

perhaps every country).

There. I said the 'unsayable' (it's the sad truth, nonetheless).

But most of these nuts were born after WWII...

[The Stranger]

118. Fascinating retreat -- from "it was a mine" to "oh well, regrettable."

Finally, after the waters have been sufficiently muddied, "no conclusive evidence anywhere."

Everyone needs to read this.

[Pavulon]

160. No conclusive evidence

nothing to draw conclusions from.

However both sides are killing civilians in this war.

Pick a side. Or pick no side, bit be clear on your pos.

Both sides and their shills have information that contradicts.

I admit that. I have no agenda.

I state my positions clear.

[The Stranger]

161. On the contrary, your positions change almost from post to post.

But the side of the debate you are on doesn't seem to change, even when it is an indefensible position.

It is as fascinating as it is disingenuous. Or, perhaps it is fascinating because it is so unbelievably disingenuous.

[ronnie624]

167. While the evidence may not be conclusive,

the article you linked to in post #75 seems to suggest there is at least some forensic evidence supporting the claim that the explosion was caused by a 155 mm artillery shell:

"The group said most of the injuries to the dead were to the head and torso. A Human Rights Watch spokesman said that would be consistent with an incoming shell, not a bomb buried in the ground."

The article also alludes to the possibility of more evidence:

"Human Rights Watch also said the crater was consistent with a 155 mm artillery shell."

The claims that the explosion was caused by a mine on the other hand are supported by no evidence whatsoever. Instead the article cites the "opinions" of un-named sources working for the Israeli government. Some of these "opinions" are apparently based on nothing more than the examination of some photographs.

"Adding to the conclusion that it was not an Israeli shell that killed the family was an examination of photographs of the crater on the beach."

Notice how CNN slyly leaves you with the impression that the Israeli version is the "conclusion".

Ridiculous.

Do you often post links that damage your own argument?

[AnOhioan]

110. Thhe key words in your post.....

"According to Israel" Other groups have said the evidence looks like an Israeli attack.

[bennywhale]

97. Israel are out of control

[54anickel]

49. Analysis: The IDF's new definition of victory

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291997191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hizbullah's fighting force in southern Lebanon can be totally eliminated, say generals in the IDF, but that will take a much more intensive invasion by ground troops, capturing all the territory up to the Litani River. There is a consensus, both at the political and the military levels, that Israel shouldn't be doing that as the cost - in casualties, in economic damage caused by a widespread reservists call-up and in international support - is deemed prohibitive.

But the generals are continuing to promise a victory at the end of this round of fighting; so how do they define victory? A senior IDF source said on Tuesday that the victory wouldn't be measured only in military terms, but also in diplomatic ones.

"For the past two weeks, the military side was given precedent over diplomacy. Now both sides have equal power," said the source. So now the IDF's idea of victory over Hizbullah consists of a multinational force with real powers that will take control of southern Lebanon and ensure that Hizbullah's rockets don't return.

snip>

The IDF generals are beginning to talk like ambassadors and extolling the diplomatic achievement that will be coupled with the military results. Since no one really believes that the Lebanese Army is prepared in the near future to take on Hizbullah when it tries to return to its old strongholds after the IDF retreats, the 'dream' solution currently is an upgraded multi-national force - nothing like the bad, old UNIFIL who were more human shields for the Hizbullah than anything else - but a force with powers and security responsibilities similar to those of the NATO battalions that operated in Kosovo and the multi-national force currently fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan.

more...

[bemildred]

66. The bullshit river is still flowing deep and wide. nt

[54anickel]

72. Yep, gotta love the "nothing like the bad, old UNIFIL" comment though.

But Condi's got a plan....I think the OP, or another article on DU said something about Lebanon "leaking" details of Condi's plan because they don't agree with much of it. Meanwhile, this guy is laying the entire plan out - before there's been any negotiating. It's a done deal - UN out, NATO in and Southern Lebanon is once again occupied territory. Right back up to the river.

[bemildred]

74. They never give up until they are thrown out.

There is always another plan, and past disasters are shoved under the carpet.

It just does not seem to me that blowing up some UN peacekeepers is going to encourage anyone to volunteer for the new group of suckers "peace-keeping" force.

What is interesting is that we are now in a situation (like Iraq) where it will serve other players to stall, let the situation fester, I think.

[lvx35]

105. Its just like Iraq. That's what blows my mind! nt

[BrightKnight]

139. Rocket attacks have shifted power to the IDF.

The IDF is operating with few or no civilian constraints. Further, within the IDF power has shifted to the more extreme voices.

A hard right shift in response to terrorist attacks.
Where have I seen this kind of thing before?

(Targeting civilians with thousands of random rocket attacks is terrorism.)

Israel is not the first principal cause of all evil in the universe. They are not omnipotent and all knowing. They are subject to the same political pressures that we are.

[Nothing Without Hope]

50. They don't WANT any observers seeing what they are doing n/t

[54anickel]

54. WTF? They're blowing up banks and a bankers home too? Maybe

banking is different there, but couldn't they just have the gov't freeze the accounts? Are they trying to incite another civil war in Lebanon? Trying to piss of the citizens? What the heck are they doing? There had to be an easier way. :shrug:

Report: Nasrallah’s banks bombed
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280926,00.html

WASHINGTON – NBC television reported Tuesday that the IDF has bombed Lebanese banks holding Hizbullah money, this in the framework of Israel’s attempt to destroy the terror group’s financial infrastructure.

According to the report, in the past few days Israel has intentionally targeted financial institutions in Beirut and other cities throughout Lebanon, among them Tyre, Sidon and Nabatiyeh.

Israeli intelligence sources told NBC that at least 12 financial institutions that supported Hizbullah were attacked, adding that the organization, which secretly managed its funds, is now short on cash due to the bombings.

Some of the banks that held Hizbullah accounts were completely destroyed, while others were purposely damaged but not completely demolished.

NBC said that in one incident the Israeli Air Force bombed the home of a bank manager as a warning to other Lebanese bankers not to deal with Hizbullah.

more...

[Vidar]

65. I'm pleased the UN is calling Israel on this.

[NoodleyAppendage]

69. Well...clearly the UN and Annan are anti-semitic for raising a fuss.

See. The rule is Israel can do no wrong. And, if you DARE try to criticize Israel or rein in Israeli hostile actions, you just might be bombed.

This is MURDER of UN observers is likely the consequence of Annan's call for Israel to stop the incursions into Lebanon.

..and the US continues to sit back. So much for our role as "moral leadership"

J

[L0oniX]

78. Kill the messenger

The usual tactic. We don't want the truth to come out do we?
:wtf:

[kitty1]

79. Both the U.S govt and Israel want NATO at the border...

Neither of them can stomach the UN and vice versa. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in Rome. Hope Annan doesn't relent on this one.

[Sam Odom]

90. Honestly, why can Annan do ?

The U.N. is toothless.

[JackDragna]

86. The civilized nations of the world should declare war on Israel.

I mean, we went to war against Iraq because of their flaunting of the UN and international law, right? It's only fair. :P

[Tom Joad]

89. Sanctions and divestment. It's the only serious answer.

[ima_sinnic]

93. yes, time for serious sanctions against Israel--but will never

happen as long as The Complicit One is "in charge" here in the U.S.

[Tom Joad]

137. Labor unions can do this on their own. Churches. The Presbyterian

Church has mulled this action. Dem leaders support Israel with the same blind zeal as Bush, but the people can make things happen.
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_19.shtml

[stranger81]

151. Unfortunately, that problem isn't just about B*sh

I can't think of a single Democrat who's thrown their hat in the ring for '08 who would deviate one iota from W's position on Israel. Kerry and Clinton would potentially be worse.

**** DISCLAIMER -- IN NO WAY IS THIS MEANT TO BE A DEFENSE OF, OR AN APOLOGY, FOR THE HUMAN(?) CANCER RESIDING IN THE WHITE HOUSE ****

[Zhade]

98. They should actually declare it against a certain larger country...

...that goes around invading countries that didn't attack them.

But I'm not advocating that, oh no. No way.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. Pre-programmed *I support Israel 100%!* post...

Israel is fighting a war for her very survival! Sadly, mistakes happen in war!

then when it's realised that it was a co-ordinated attack, it's time to change tack

The UN is biased against Israel! A future investigation by the IDF will show that this attack was staged by the UN to make Israel look bad!

or

Were they really peace-keepers? How do you know they weren't terrorists dressed up as peace-keepers?

and if none of that seems to be working, draw out the big guns with:

Why are there so many threads about the UN peace-keepers accidental deaths and none about the Antisemitism and mocking of Israel rampant in every thread at DU? btw, have I mentioned yet that there'd be peace if Arabs didn't hate Jews more than they love their own children and there's no such people as Palestinians? (tip of the hat to Golda Meir)...

[Binka]

96. Where Is The Idiot That Thinks Israel Raaaawwwkkks?

Jaysis Violet how do you put up with these MF bastards?

[Violet_Crumble]

100. AWOL....

Somehow I think responding with 'Israel Raaaawwwwkkkkssss!!' to threads titled along the lines of '4 UN peace-keepers killed in Israeli missile and artillery attack' and 'Family of Canadians killed in Israeli missile attack' might be sailing a bit too close to the wind and might not be found acceptable at DU...

I put up with them coz I have infinite patience and rarely get cranky :)

[Nothing Without Hope]

115. You've sure got the standard lines nailed! I'm so tired of hearing them

and sickened to see all too many people swayed by them, even at DU.

Well said! I'm bookmarking this.

[Poll_Blind]

141. LOL! Spot-on! n/t

PB

[rucky]

104. Even if it was deliberate, Kofi shouldn't have said that in public.

It's just stoking the fire.

Diplomacy in a tense situation: Investigate first, then come forward with the war-crime accusations.

[stranger81]

152. and how many more UN staffers die during that investigation,

in the absence of a statement from Kofi now?

I think he was absolutely spot-on, and if anything, not emphatic enough.

[ecstatic]

162. right on!

I think Annan's public announcement and condemnation of the attack has probably saved lives because it let Israel know that we're on to them. Israel's military had repeated warnings--it would seem as though they went ahead and blew up the place out of spite and to let the UN know 'who's boss.' I just feel sorry for the people who lost their lives, it's just not fair!

[Barkley]

106. Why are there no WAL-MARTs in Beirut?

A: because there's a TARGET on every corner

[oasis]

108. Sen. McCain on Imus Show says "Kofi Annan should know better,

he's betraying his bias". :eyes:

[Virginia Dare]

112. You will find very few in House or Senate...

who will criticize Israel about anything. Jim Moran from VA is one of the few, and he's been branded anti-semitic on several occasions. I think it's pure bullshit to call someone an anti-semite who criticizes the actions of the Israeli government, but it's become almost Pavlovian for elected officials to tow the "Israel does no wrong" line.

[Nothing Without Hope]

121. Dennis Kucinich has dared to call for a ceasefire and did it almost

immediately.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2730810
thread title (7-19-06): URGENT: Kucinich to introduce cease-fire resolution

Almost all the others try to outdo each other blindly supporting whatever the hell Israel does. This includes most of the Dem leadership.

[saigon68]

133. SOME OF US HERE ARE SICK OF IT TOO

[Nothing Without Hope]

113. ***Later thread related to this topic - LINK:***

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2413881
UN: Observers made many calls before strike

[The Stranger]

119. This was a statement to any would-be peacekeeping force.

Make no mistake about it.

[Nothing Without Hope]

122. Yes, you're right. Israel wants the water of Southern Lebanon

as it has demanded and threatened for years.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1696420
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1698430

Israel wants no one to see and judge what it does in these attacks, no one to demand withdrawal from occupied land. Then it can control news reports, claim to be hitting only Hezbollah, and continue with the "Israel has a right to defend itself" line - which has lost all meaning by this time of the attacks.

And it can seize the Lebanese water springs near the border. I anticipate Israel demanding some form of "zone" there set up so that it can get the water.

[BrightKnight]

156. Is the water within 1.2 miles of the border? - n/t

[Nothing Without Hope]

159. According to the NYT, the Wazzani Springs are 3 miles north of the border:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E4D7103BF93BA35753C1A9649C8B63

World Briefing | Middle East: Lebanon: Water Dispute With Israel

Published: October 8, 2002

Senior officials from the United States Embassy in Beirut met Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri to try to defuse a dispute with Israel over Lebanon's plans to use water both countries say they need. Israel has said it takes a ''grave view'' of Lebanon's plan to pipe water to southern villages from the Wazzani Springs, three miles north of the Israeli border. The springs feed the Hasbani River, a tributary of the Jordan River, which is a major source of Israel's fresh water. Lebanon says that it is within its rights under international law and that it plans to open a pumping station soon.

[Eugene]

124. BBC: Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea

Last Updated: Wednesday, 26 July 2006, 13:47 GMT 14:47 UK

Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an
Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling,
diplomats familiar with the probe say.

<snip>

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations
made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was
"apparently deliberate".

<snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5217176.stm

If it wasn't deliberate, it was extraordinarily reckless.

[myrna minx]

125. Oh my gawd.

This and then the bombing of Red Cross vehicles? :crazy: This is horrible. There was no way this was an accident.

[The Doctor.]

134. Apparrently this is an imperialist push on several fronts.

The US and Israel are most likely in cahoots on this one.

[Anywho6]

155. Yes, and with the "support" of the U.S., no doubt

What a better way to finally get rid of that pesky U.N.--intimidate them into non-existence and non-effectiveness.

I hate your guts, George et al!!! What goes around, comes around and I hope it's especially harsh on you and yours.

[bonito]

163. Kick n/t

[jonconroy]

168. nice post

nice post