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cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:15 PM
Original message
Machine Vote-Flipping Claimed in McKinney Primary
Machine Vote-Flipping Claimed in McKinney Primary

By Matthew Cardinale, News Editor and National Correspondent, Atlanta Progressive News (July 18, 2006)

(APN) ATLANTA Youve got electronic voting machines. Many people called in and shared their concern. They pushed the button for Cynthia McKinney and Hank Johnson came up. It wasnt one time, it wasnt two times, it was many, many times, Karen Fitzpatrick, who has been monitoring elections for US Rep. McKinneys re-election campaign, told Atlanta Progressive News in an exclusive interview.

Let me repeat: The McKinney Campaign says they have documented complaints of voters here in Georgia whose votes FLIPPED BEFORE THEIR VERY EYES on Diebold machines.

It started early this morning. There were well over 25 to 30 calls that came in . Many of them went to the poll manager . In some cases, the poll managers said theres nothing we can do. In some cases the voter left frustrated as if their vote had been compromised, as if it had been stolen, Fitzpatrick said.

...

http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0072.html
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. If it had happened to me and they told me nothing could be done...
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 02:17 PM by Roland99
I'd have run around the voting precinct unplugging all of the PCs and calling 911!!!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Me too
Frankly I find this story hard to believe because out of dozens of people SOMEBODY is bound to blow a fuse and do something about it.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
61. I hope EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS that this is what is going to keep on happenin
and will be widespread this November. I am not sure of what the solution is, but I do know that I would NOT be putting my vote on one of these machines. If you can (as I can in the State of CA) get an Absentee Ballot or request a paper ballot at the polls or county registrar and vote that way, please, please do so.

Even though my county and state are very "blue", I still get my absentee ballot, fill it out and personally deliver to the County Registrar of Voters. I do not trust the US Mail to get it there or someone in the County Office building's mailroom. I figure if I atleast get it into the hands of the Registrar of Voters, that its closer to getting counted than ever.

Everyone needs to figure out collectively how we are going to make sure our election is not stolen - again......
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. If you're right, they can't get away with it forever
Sooner or later SOMEONE inside the conspiracy is going to get pissed off at his or her superiors and spill the beans.

As you increase the number of people who are in on a secret, the chance of it getting compromised increases exponentially.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #73
95. The Republican solution for the Diebold controversy....
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 08:03 AM by zanne
This is what I predict for Noveber; I can see it clear as day. If a Republican candidate loses by a small margin, he/she will also blame these machines, thereby nullifying the Democratic argument that the machines are fixed for Republican candidates. (It's scary, but sometimes I ask myself "What would Karl Rove do"?)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #95
100. That would be very interesting indeed
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 09:18 AM by slackmaster
It would be a powerful argument against the conspiracy theory being promoted by people who are convinced the Diebold machines have been somehow rigged to always favor Republicans.

Machines are dumb. They don't know whether choice A is a Republican or a Democrat or a Green or a Socialist. The people who build and write software for them have no way of knowing in advance which name will be configured as choice A in a future election. (On the machines I've seen personally, the ballots were quasi-randomized to prevent bias favoring the first name on the list.) The kind of rigging being hypothesized here would involve a very large and ever expanding group of people, with a trail of documentation explaining explicitly how to configure a ballot or group of ballots to favor one particular chosen candidate.

Show me the manual for vote-riggers.
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fearthem Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. They take advantage of people they know will not challenge them...
they know they can win by a state of confusion, disorganization, and vague explanations and people just leave discouraged. We need Democrat cameras, managers at each poll place -- there must be a Plan B for problems.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. How could the machine sense who would challenge and who would not?
Or do you believe it's done by selecting precincts populated by nothing but sheeple?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. If the machine is calibrated wrong
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 06:25 PM by Eric J in MN
...and when people touch one candidate, another comes up, some people will complain and some won't.

We need to get rid of touchscreen machines.

With optical scan ballots and plain paper ballots, there is no problem of pressing one candidate and another candidate appearing.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. Sooner or later that will happen to a Howard Beale
And the secret will be out.

With optical scan ballots and plain paper ballots, there is no problem of pressing one candidate and another candidate appearing.

No, but there are plenty of potential problems with chain of custody disappearing boxes of ballots, box-stuffing, and the counting process.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #57
97. I've worked on calibrating touch screen systems (for a mfg application)
and there can be great differences in results depending on the height of the person using the computer.

I would calibrate screens and then my boss, a good half foot taller than me, would use it and he'd be getting different button presses as his angle of vision was different.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. As a bank systems analyst I saw the same problem with ATMs
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 09:34 AM by slackmaster
Short customers who hit the "Quick Cash - $40" on an early Docutel touch-screen machine when they meant to hit "Withdrawal from Checking" button.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
69. As a precinct election judge, you wouldn't have had to call 911
If you tampered with the machines , I would have gladly done it for you and then had you arrested.

There are right ways and wrong ways to accomplish things. As one of the Dem officials, I would have taken the machine out of commission and handed th voter a provisional ballot. then you can the Board of Elections and report the error.

You becoming Dudley Dooright and attempting to stop everyone from voting is inappropriate. If you want power over the machines and the process, sign up, go to training and then get your ass out of bed at 4:30 and look forward to a 16 hour day trying to keep misdirected "patriots" from disrupting an election.

I call B.S. on this entire story. There are always Dem election officials at the polls. I do not believe that they would allow this to continue by shrugging their shoulders and saying there is nothing I can do. YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE PAPER BALLOTS!!!!
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Mike Daniels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #69
94. Something stinks to me as well
McKinney is the Republican's ideal opponent at this point. She got defeated in an election before and given her escapade on the Hill I don't see why she couldn't be defeated again this year.

Why in the world would you rig the machine to give someone who's less controversial the primary win?

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #94
125. McKinney was beaten in a PRIMARY, not a general election.
Republicans can't win that seat. That's why they infiltrate the Democratic primary and throw the race to the most conservative candidate(like Majette and Johnson).
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #69
98. Fine! Throw me in jail! Call the media and have it all filmed, too!!
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #98
104. Will do, just please tell the media you are an independent.
We really don't need any help with the "moonbat" label.

I just wish someone would explain why ALL of these Dem poll workers refuse to take action. It AMAZES me that in EVERY REPORTED INSTANCE at multiple polling sites THERE ISN'T ONE SINGLE DEM POLL WORKER who ever steps in and does anything about it. I have worked the polls for almost 20 years and I don't know anyone who would allow this to happen.

I still claim BULLSHIT!
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Yeah, something does stink with the original story.
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unda cova brutha Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
75. yep
I would have thrown all of the machines on the ground.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #75
105. Have a good time in jail.
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unda cova brutha Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. they can lock me up for doing that
but we are supposed to give them a pass to fuck with my vote? No sir. Not in My america.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. Just telling you the facts. I work the polls and there are proper ways
to handle this. Yours is not one of them.

I would take the machine out of order and start to use the paper provisional ballots. I also would make sure the Board of Elections knew about it. If it effected more than one machine, I can assure you, that would not be the end of it. I would testify in open court if I witnessed a repeating error. I am sure all poll workers feel the same way. THAT IS WHY I CALL BULLSHIT!!!!! on this whole story.

Conyers worked hard on this yet he never produced a single DEM poll worker to testify that this happened repeatedly. I suspect McKinney will also not be able to substantiate her claim with any SWORN TO DUTY DEM POLL WORKER!!!
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did she lose the Primary?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Not according to what I heard on NPR
There will be a runoff.
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cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, but..
she was forced into a run-off.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. No, but
chances are she is going to lose the runoff............
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
79. McKinney came in 4 points ahead of her opponent
Why do you feel she will lose the run-off?
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toopers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #79
92. There were three candidates in the primary . . .
McKinney got roughly 47%, Hank Johnson got 45%, and Coyne got 8%. Coyne is white, and I would imagine that most of those voters were crossover republicans also. More than likely they will crossover in the runoff and give Johnson the edge. The question will be whose base is the most motivated.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
88. It does not matter that she won anyway
What matters is the behavior of the goddam machines!
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fearthem Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Who is going to fix this before November????????????
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canadianbeaver Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. What are you going to do to help get this fixed.???
Not meant to be a bitch about this...but having watched the 2004 get stolen and no noticeable movement of people outraged about it in the streets ( I do realize some did, maybe even you did) but until the fat asses get moving and voicing their outrage in the streets and on EVERY street corner...nothing is gonna change and your rights will continue to be stripped away at every turn....

I have come to realize that unless the average person bands together against the so called 1st world governments of the world( including Canada) there will be no change and we will be enslaved for generations(not that we aren't already)...its happening right before our very eyes...people are dying for tyranny today and tomorrow, not freedom, freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose...

Your question asking who is going to fix this is??.....NO ONE!! There are some trying ..YES..but I don't see any changes happening soon....not in time for this November or in 08'....good luck with all that!!!

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fearthem Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I've taken to the streets, holding signs in the last election, I'm willing
But I'm not an organizer, but a worker bee.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. May I suggest that someone first get some hard evidence of a problem?
The more I think about it, the more skeptical I am of hearsay about machines doing weird things. This one is especially troubling because, putting on my tinfoil Conspiracy theory hat, I can't imagine that the Con would bother messing with this particular election. Every time the alleged conspirators mess with an election they risk getting caught. Why take that risk when there is ZERO potential return?

Back in the '80s when I worked for a bank, we hired a young secretary who was very nice but wasn't all there mentally. Her name was Vivian. About a week into her job, she was learning to use an IBM typewriter and typed her name as "Divian".

Divian, as we called her from then on, was adamant that she'd typed her name correctly and insisted that the machine had changed it.

We tried and tried, but could never recreate the error.

As a senior systems administrator, the very first thing I do after receiving a report of an application bug is to try to make it happen under controlled conditions. If I can't, I throw it back to the person who reported it and ask for more information. Usually I never hear back from them.

People who make mistakes often are unable to admit to their errors.
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
62. They HAVE evidence....
The above article SAID that McKinney's office had taken testimonies(a form of evidence) from voters.

If you recall, during the 04 Presidential election Rep. Conyers held hearings and had numerous voters who also testified to vote-switching on the machines.

Recently, the election in San Diego additionally had testimony of voters with problems on the machines.

Oh, but by all means, keep screaming that there's "no evidence" of foul play (sarcasm).
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Ka hrnt Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Evidence and "hard evidence"
...aren't the same thing. Twenty to thirty calls can be fairly easily dismissed by the fact that thousands of other voters apparently didn't have any problem. I think the previous poster probably was referring to "physical" evidence, not testimony (probably the shakiest form of evidence there is besides conjecture).
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Ka hrnt Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
65. Very good point here:
"Why take that risk when there is ZERO potential return?"

Especially when from a strategic standpoint, I'd think the Republicans would prefer it if McKinney won, given her track record...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Why not explain how her track record would benefit Republicans?
Her fellow Democrats would like to know.
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Ka hrnt Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #68
77. It's all about appearances
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 01:23 AM by Ka hrnt
The scandal with the police and subsequent apology on the house floor, for starters. Then there were her comments re: 9/11 that (apparently) cost her her seat in 2004. Those are two big things that I'm sure Republicans would like to point to and try to label as "typical liberal/Democrat" behavior. Perhaps "track record" was a poor choice of words, but "scandals" would only apply to the former...oh well.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bunyip Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
81. Do not assume
Republicans are infinitely disciplined and 100% strategic. No human is.

A sassy, self-confident, outspoken black woman to them is like a red flag to a bull.

I know its none of my business, but I hope Cynthia McKinney wins. If she doesn't, I hope she can come over here and show our progressives how its done! :evilgrin:
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
112. why all these idiotic red herrings and simplistic faux logic
are you trying to tell us that there has been no election fraud? are you crazy?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #112
121. Phrasing your straw man and ad hominem as questions doesn't help
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 03:45 PM by slackmaster
The answer to both of your questions is "No".

I have never said, on this or any other forum, that there hasn't been any election fraud. I have said repeatedly that election fraud has occurred many times throughout history.

As for my sanity, if you really think I am crazy please come out and say it. My skin is thicker than you could possibly know.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. No One - This Happened In The 2004 General Election
Many Complaints.

No Resolution!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. One other element missing
Incontrovertible proof that it really happened that way.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. 1st Person Witness Is Not Good Enough For You I Guess.
eom
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Although I don't know you personally I have no reason not to trust you
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 05:48 PM by slackmaster
But your account is your recollection of one incident on one machine. It may be that you were using a bum machine, and that only a few are defective. It doesn't prove that the malfunction was intentional. There may be machines that go the other way.

Proof strong enough to do something about it requires something more substantial. Like a videotape of a well known and trusted public figure demonstrating the error repeatedly. Or a stack of affidavits of people reporting the same problem. Or a whistle-blower from a company that makes the machines or their software.

Please don't take it personally.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I Was A Sworn Election Clerk For Dallas County Texas
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 06:14 PM by mhr
During Early Voting for the 2004 General Election. That is a matter of public record.

Early voting lasted two weeks. We manned the Richardson, TX polling station which is a suburb of Dallas just to the North but still in Dallas County.

The polling station was inside the city administration building right next door to the city library.

All of this is just off central avenue which is US 75.

We used 15 ES&S touch screen machines. Two additional machines were configured for the disabled.

All occurrences happened when senior citizens requested assistance because they could not understand how their vote was changed.

The observed behavior was that a voter would select a straight DEM ticket. Once they went to the summary page, all their votes had been switched to Republican candidates.

I personally observed 4 occurrences. My other Democratic clerks told me similar stories.

I hope that is enough detail to convince you that it actually did happen.

This is a map for the Richardson City Hall and Library.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I believe you completely!
At least you were able to help the voters who reported the problem. I imagine some people are not observant enough.

One thing about senior citizens, they are often prone to just give up and leave when things don't work right for them.

If I thought a particular machine was malfunctioning, I would have taken it out of service and red-tagged it immediately. Or forcibly disabled it.

If there was a sytematic problem it's a damn shame your bosses wouldn't do anything about it.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
63. Not the standard of proof even in a criminal trial.
You think voting so unimportant to make such a standard?

You would NEVER discover voting fraud if that were the standard.

And a lot of criminals would walk acquitted.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. IMO the evidence I've seen couldn't pass the reasonable doubt test
There have been some very vocal people who reported problems. They can't all be wrong, but I am not convinced of the level of conspiracy that would be needed to really alter the outcome of election after election.

Cheating can and has be done with paper ballots too BTW.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #72
91. You Choose To Ignore The Obvious
What does that say about you?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. Are you choosing argumentum ad hominem?
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 09:32 AM by slackmaster
I'm not sure why you would do that in this forum, in this context. We're supposed to be friends by default here. I'm just offering my personal opinion. My desire is for the truth to come out, and that is much more important to me than who wins one election or another. The most important aspect of this is for the citizens of a democracy to justifiably have confidence in the integrity of our election systems. Clearly there is a problem here. It will never be possible for everybody to be happy with the outcome of every election, but what we have now is wide open for endless accusations of fraud and conspiracy. The core flaw IMO is that there seems to be no way to either prove or disprove those allegations.

I'm 48 years old. I have been working with data processing systems as a professional for more than 23 years. During that time I've seen and diagnosed and fixed a lot of problems; and the ones I couldn't fix I documented and escalated to someone who could or someone who had the authority to decide which ones were worth fixing. Most reported data processing problems caused by human error or misunderstanding, some are caused by hardware malfunctions (which often have a component of human error), and a very small number are caused by intentional, malicious actions by humans.

I don't dispute in any way what you say you saw. I fully believe that you had some voters who say they voted a straight Democratic ticket, but the system switched their ballots to a straight Republican ticket. That could be caused by many different processes. I won't even start to enumerate the ways I can imagine that happening. It would take days. But the questions I ask as a systems analyst would be along the lines of:

1. How many times has this happened?

2. Can we make it happen under controlled conditions? If so, with what freqency? The answer to that would lead to higher level questions, e.g. is this enough of a problem to have materially altered the outcome of the election?

3. Has someone ever complained of voting straight Republican only to have all the votes switched to Democratic, and how often has that happened? Can we make that happen under controlled conditions, etc.

It's obvious to me that you saw something strange happen. It's not at all clear that your experience is indicative of a fatal systemic flaw or vast conspiracy to steal an election. You are one of a very small number of people who have given me first person accounts of a glitch with an electronic voting system. Think about people who might have seen their Republican votes switch to Democratic. If their guy wins the election, they would be far less motivated to complain about it afterward than someone whose candidate lost.

I urge anyone interested in this topic to ask yourself this question: What is more important to you, having your candidate win or having the truth come out? My point is that if your mindset is proper, you should be prepared and willing to accept and live with an answer you don't personally like.
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TiredNow Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #99
114. Slackmaster, you seem very logical and pragmatic to me.
I think the very basis of the electronic voting machines themselves not being able to provide verifiable and auditable results makes them not certifiable for use in elections. But then, you are the first real expert I've heard chime in on this arguement, and thus I am very interested in your point of view.
Do you think that the machines are truly certifiable for election purposes?

What additional steps (if any)need to be taken so that electronic voting machines can be a transparently auditable and therefore reliable means of accumulating votes?

Peace to everyone and remember we're all on the same team here!

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. The machines need to put out a hard copy for auditing purposes, and
The hardware and software needs to be fully open and auditable, reviewed extensively by more than one team of people who can be held accountable for their results.

Physical custody of the machines must be maintained under strict dual control at all times, just like money in a bank or boxes of paper ballots.

The machines themselves should not be IMO produced or maintained by a for-profit corporation, or anyone else subject to influence peddling at any level.

It would be difficult to do, but I think in principle it is possible. I also think it's possible to make safe nuclear power plants. Both problems come down to significant engineering challenges.

Even with all that done, there will always be people who loudly claim the results of any election are wrong, just as has always been the case with every system ever devised except perhaps the earliest systems where each voter had a stone of standard weight and placed it on the side of a balance, each side of which represented one side of a two-sided issue. When that was done in full view of everyone involved, cheating was probably not possible. We all know very well that massive fraud has happened many times with paper ballots.

The key is to make the public's level of confidence high enough that the people who make proclamations and accusations about stolen elections are few in number, and people who most clearly have an axe to grind.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #72
109. A preponderance of the evidence (51%) standard should apply.
It is vital to protect voting integrtiy in a democracy.

Eyewitness testimony by multiple people is enough to launch an investigation.

The machines should be seized without ANY opportunity to tamper and destroy evidence.

But as we know, anything connected to a network can be tampered with remotely.



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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. we are, we need to bust into and destroy these god damn machines
they need to become pieces of garbage to be hauled away
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why would the Repukes (or Diebold) manipulate a Democratic primary?
And if so, why would it be against McKinney?

Is she still so popular after the alleged Zsa-Zsa incident that the Repukes think she's more of a threat than Johnson?

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. She's seen as a far left liberal by conservatives
They'd love to see her go down.

But I am skeptical that they would even bother.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. they owe her one
for the pimp-slapping of a Capitol Cop
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. How is Fantasyland?
Do they still have the big flying Dumbo?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Wait a minute... the run-off is open to votes from both parties?
But still... why would the Repukes want McKinney out of the way badly enough to risk showing all their cards before the General Election?

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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. That is how they got her out
the first time. In Georgia it isn't illegal to be a repub and vote in a demo election. The crossovers got her tossed. Then Majette left her seat to try and run for a seat she couldn't win and Mckinney sorta slid back in there. Had Majette stayed McKinney in all likelihood would still not be in politics...............
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. They couldn't tip the machines enough for a deffinitive win without...
but could only get it close enough for a run-off?

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It would have raised too much suspicion, no doubt, as she is far
more widely recognized and popular. It seems obvious.

Why try to dismiss the Democratic voters? You might find more support elsewhere.

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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Some answers
GA has no party affiliation registration. You simply register to vote.

During any election before the general, you are allowed to request any parties ballot. You can only vote on one parties ballot though.




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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. McKinney is pretty much
toast. Only in DeKalb does she hold high numbers and the exit interviews I saw yesterday many, many were voting against her. The punching the cop was too much for a lot of people. I think Johnson is going to win handily............
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
82. "punching the cop" is RW spin
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xzyra Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
116. exactly. Don't believe everything you read!
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. I Personally Witnessed ES&S Machines Change Democratic Votes
To Republican Votes in early voting in Dallas County Texas.

HAVA is the worst thing to happen to America.

You can't deny what my eyes saw while working as am election clerk.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. OK, this is prima fascie evidence
What did you do about it, mhr?
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Reported It To The Democratic Party - They Did Nothing
I was willing to sign an affidavit.

No Takers!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Did you try the Secretary of State or whoever is in charge of elections
For your state, county, etc.?

Or a member of Congress?

Or the police or the FBI?
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Dallas County Registrar of Elections Ignored It
Could not be reproduced at will so the FBI was no dice.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. "Could not be reproduced at will"
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 05:52 PM by slackmaster
Is the most common reason I as a systems administrator am unable to do anything about reported problems with my company's software.

If it's not reproducible, that usually means it was a momentary glitch, or a fluke, or a flawed observation.

Today I had one that turned out to be a "PEBKAC" error. (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.) One of our managers had a URL spelled incorrectly.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. See My Other Post - No Flawed Observation Because Voters
Were flagging this for my attention.

I will not let you explain away what I saw with my own two eyes.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I appreciate you taking the time to write your account
Thanks!
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3waygeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I'm a software developer...
and I run into the same thing at least once a day. What's especially frustrating is that my boss, who was a developer only 6 months ago, doesn't seem to understand that.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Only solution -- EVERYBODY MUST BRING A CAMCORDER INTO VOTING BOOTH.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. If SOMEBODY had done that just once I'd find this easier to believe
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 02:25 PM by slackmaster
We're talking major, conspicuous malfunction of numerous machines here.

I want to see some better proof.

ETA I have been involved in technical support of humans using computing equipment since 1983. During those years I've heard many, many people complain that the machine did something improper, when the only reasonable explanation was their own error or misunderstanding.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. This was being
claimed practically as soon as the voting started..................
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
59. But you bring up another point......
I work in IT too and I would never, ever dream of introducing an application before I made sure that my people were throughly trained on it. It's easy enough to cry "dumb user" But were training was introduced to people when these machines were brought in and do people really understand what the hell they are doing?


Too many times in IT I've have seen the finger pointed at the end-user, only to find out that the root of the problem was that nobody gave a damn how well the eventual users were trained on a new system. And I suspect that some people wnat it just that way.

Da Bronx
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
71. Here in San Diego we had over 5,000 who couldn't do a write-in vote
On an optical scan ballot. That's how many people wrote in the name of Donna Frye for mayor but failed to fill in the bubble next to the written name. As an IT person it was obvious to me that the bubble had to be filled in, otherwise how would the machine that reads the ballot know to flag it to be read by a human?

But it's perfectly understandable to me how less technical people wouldn't have thought of that. The instructions were clear to me as a VERY literal minded person. (When someone tells me to go to Hell I ask which freeway has the least traffic this time of day.)

The "ID 10-T" error did not begin with the introduction of computer technology. Not some, but MOST people don't have much of a head for working with machines.

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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I've never voted on a Diebold machine, but I saw some
different types of machines that we were considering here in Ct. I have a question, once you choose your candidate, and submit the vote, don't you have an opportunity to change it before it is officially submitted? I that were the case and it happened to me, I would just cancel out my vote, go up to a poll worker, and request an absentee ballot!! Is this an option?? We still use the old lever machines here in my 1 voting precinct town!
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. We have Sequoia, and my husband had to press Kerry THREE
times before BUSH went away.. :grr:

The problem is not what you see on the screen..

You never know what's being recorded INSIDE where it counts...even a paper ballot record that gets printed by a machine could be programmed to print what you SEE, but the internal register could be ANYTHING...
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Exactly..
.... and that is why I have some issues with this story. If in fact the machines are doing what is alledged, I claim that it's a plain jane vanilla malfunction.

Someone stealing votes isn't going to update the screen with the other candidate - they are simply going to add your vote to the wrong column. Silently.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
70. GREAT IDEA! I'm going to take one in for the 2006 election vote.
Video proof will be shared if I experience any monkey business...

J
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
113. Excellent idea!
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pushycat Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. Can't understand how people put up with this charade of voting -
It is so obvious the votes are compromised and yet our JUSTICE DEPT is nowhere in sight. What the hell are we paying their salaries for if our legal eagles won't fly? You'd think even the local police would try to put a stop to this travesty of election fraud. Has anyone filmed a vote switching like is described? Maybe that could be put on local TV for everyone to see before they go vote.

It's time to remove every incumbant from office and pass laws preventing partisan gaming of the elections processes. Partisans, especially R's just can't run a fair election at any level - 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006 are all poisoned with fraud and illegality. It's a national disgrace.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. As in the past nothing will be done and in Nov nothing will be done.
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 03:17 PM by Sapere aude
There doesn't seem to be any mechanism in place before the election to do anything about it and on election day it is too late. That what pisses me off so much about the 2004 election where Kerry said every vote will be counted. He meant after the election which has no effect on the election and even though there was fraud nothing was done.


WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THIS BEFORE THE FUCKING ELECTION DAMN IT!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
84. There are election reform groups all over the country
challenging these machines. Filing suits. Find one and help them. They need you. :hi:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. "their vote had been compromised, as if it had been stolen"
Well, yuh, it was stolen.

Zorra's sneeze-and-go magic-charge magnetic democracy dust...floats in the air, guaranteed to crash any machine.

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lithiumbomb Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. i don't buy it
With the setup GA uses, you select your votes on the touch screen. The one you've selected is highlighted. When you're done, you get a summary screen of all of your selections. You can then change your selections, or touch the confirm button and submit your ballot. So, did people submit their ballot knowing their selections were not what they intended? Why would they do that? I'm not saying the system isn't very flawed, but I bet this is has more to do with voter confusion, in this case, than any conspiracy.

The only way to fight voting problems is to go after them logically. While a conspiracy and rigged voting machine is certainly possible, a new voting system that is confusing to voters and the lack of a paper trail to prove one thing or the other is the most logical problem to go after and resolve.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. This is surely the wrong place to call Democratic voters stupid. n/t
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Exactly.
That is the system here. You must approve your choices before you leave, so the chances the votes "changed" are nil and none.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
67. Wrong.
What's important is what is sent to the tabulator or what is done at the tabulator itself.

Simple programming. If Then. Eg., If vote for DEM is verified Then add 1 to column REP.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
58. The poll workers told them that they couldn't change it
...to McKinney, even if they could have.

"Many of them went to the poll manager . In some cases, the poll managers said there�s nothing we can do. In some cases the voter left frustrated as if their vote had been compromised, as if it had been stolen,� Fitzpatrick said.

And many voters hadn�t even selected the �cast ballot� button yet, when they were told it was already too late, Fitzpatrick said."
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lithiumbomb Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #58
76. right, but why?
Is that due to poll worker ignorance? Is the machine faulty? Is the story garbled? We don't know. It's a 3rd person account from a political campaign staffer in a progressive media outlet. That's far from solid evidence of any wrongdoing.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #76
90. A 3rd person account is how you would hear about it first.
Stay tuned. McKinney's people say that they have affidavits:

McKinneys campaign showed APN a stack of affidavits from who they say are traumatized voters. APN hopes to interview some of these voters very soon and bring you the details.

http://atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0072.html


By the way, it sounds like you discount the facts because they come from a progressive media outlet. Is that what you really meant? Would they be more convincing to you if they came from a corporate media outlet?

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lithiumbomb Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. i'd be more convinced from multiple sources
I'm going in with a healthy skepticism. :) A progressive source is just as open to bias as any other. Ultimately it's still one source of info. One person making a claim on behalf of others in a single outlet. I doubt that the source is intentionally biased or reporting incorrect info, but still the allegations lack multiple sources, multiple confirmations. Like I said, what we need to do is look at this logically. What is the more likely problem? What is easier to prove? An organized conspiracy to alter the vote in a democratic primary? Or the ultimate result of a flawed and confusing voting system? The former is within the realm of possibility, but the latter is easy to prove and correct.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
123. It's evidence of a problem, intentional or not. NT
NT
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
85. Why should anyone have to guess if their vote was counted?
Why should we have to wonder if our elections are clean?

:)
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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Welcome to November 2006
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 04:05 PM by BadGimp
I don't care how far ahead Dems are in November. the GOP and the electronic voting technology companies WILL NOT let the Dems take either house.

Poll sin the fonal days and on election day will show the Dems leading. Exit polls will show the Dems winning. But the final tallies will give the key races to the GOP candidate.

We are sooooooooooooooooooooo screwed people.

We waiting too long.

I doubt 08 can even be saved.

I hate to be the negative prognostigator but the enidence was right there in HAVA. All we people needed to do was project out what the voting machine companies would do with the wide lattitude the legislation gave them.

If you can steal an election and not get caught and not even have the general public suspect, why would you not?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. There were many reports of touchscreens changing Kerry votes to Bush
votes in 2004. The ones I read about--the touchscreen presents a page, you vote that candidate or issue, and "turn the page" to the next. When alert voters went back to page one to review their vote for Kerry, it had been changed to Bush. They changed it back to Kerry, checked their other votes, went back to page one and found it changed to Bush again. They complained. Nothing was done--the machines remained in use. This went on all day long. They finally got their ballot to register Kerry, but felt ZERO confidence that their vote would remain that way, when they finalized their ballot.

No paper trail.

And these were just the ALERT, skeptical voters. Think of all those who didn't check back on their vote.

And who knows what happened to their vote after it was sent through the electronic aether to the central tabulator.

Cynthia McKinney is a major thorn in the Bushites' side. She questioned the 9/11 official version, and remains skeptical. She was one of the earliest Democrats to cry foul on the Iraq War. She's a brassy, bossy, don't-mess-with-me black woman, who doesn't fit it into the DC boys' club (Repub or Dem), and there is every reason to believe that the incident with the guard was contrived, both to weaken the ironclad Constitutional protection of members of Congress (who CANNOT be prevented from entering Congress by any person, for any reason), and to harass and annoy her. You can't tell me that a member of the boys' club would have been treated that way! And I am livid at the DUers who jumped on her in a Rush Limbaugh-style witchhunt. Don't they understand what it's like being a bold black woman in a position of power amidst the Bush junta? Jeez.

Anyway, she's a LEFTIST--a MAJORITYIST!--who does her best to represent the true mainstream of this country. And they are out for her blood.

I am not in the least surprised at blatant vote switching. They've gotten away with murder--en masse murder--as well as massive theft. They're getting away with this.

How can we stop them?

Well, for one thing STOP VOTING ON THESE RIGGED MACHINES!!! Get an Absentee Ballot! Join the citizen protest against the machines! AB voting is now up to 50% in Los Angeles. If it gets bigger, THEN we have something. We have an INDIGENOUS REBELLION against the machines. Think of it. All those shiny, new, election theft machines--from the $4 billion HAVA boondoggle--sitting there gathering dust, because no one will vote on them! AB voting isn't safe either--but it IS a PROTEST--and one that could throw a huge monkey wrench into the rigged election system. See my post on this at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And never give up on your right to vote! Never! It's everything! It IS our democracy!



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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in there. nt
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WilmywoodNCparalegal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. *puts on flame suit*
I guess the notion that perhaps the Georgia voters who voted did not like McKinney is unfathomable. Sometimes, people just prefer the other guy/gal on the ballot. I'm not discounting the seriousness of election rigging (please don't flame me on this).

*putting on heavy asbestos armor-like protection*
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. The ones who voted for the opponent weren't the ones complaining. n/t
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
56. This is why we have to get rid of electronic voting machines,
...not just add printers.

With optical scan ballots and plain paper ballots, there is no problem of pressing one candidate and another candidate appearing.

It's because of how touchsreens are calibrated.

Everyone should vote on paper.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
66. Will these people stop at nothing!?!?!
I can't belive it. Sure, winning is great, but to go to these CHEATING lengths to win is UNCALLED for. You have to learn to loose graciously, which is something most Republicans today are totally inept at doing. God Damn....

I'm worried about november. If the Republicans win, I'm gonna know there was some vote tampering, for sure....
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
93. which people? this was a Democratic primary.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
78. this nation needs to cop a clue for putting up with this bullshit
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
83. Not too hard
Some have complained that these problems are not repeatable and why screw around with this particular race. On point one if I want to change a close race by 1 percentage point so that candidate B wins instead of candidate A I write my code so out of 100 votes one vote for A changes to B. This doesn't have to be every hundredth vote but just one in every 100 or an average of one in every hundred. So this would be a repeatable error but you would have to take the machine off line immediately on it being reported, make sure it is not tampered with in any way and then have somebody sit and enter a large number of votes for A to see if it 'ever' changes a vote to B. As far as why this race, you have to try out the system somewhere and see how much complaint you get from voters. For example, if I know my software would have changed 100 votes in an election but only 1 percent of the people complained I would figure I had a pretty good chance of getting away with rigging the vote. No system is infallible but it is interesting that you don't hear a lot of complaints from Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, etc. that their votes are getting changed to Democrat votes. This does allow the manipulation of the media to say it was just stupid democrat voters or it's all a 'conspiracy' by the democrats to explain their loses. Just like exit polls only are wrong in cases where it is important that a Republican wins i.e. the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. Welcome to DU.
:)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #83
101. One major problem with your theory
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 09:36 AM by slackmaster
How do you, the hypothetical corrupt application developer, know in advance which party's candidate will be configured as candidate B in advance?

The machines are not configured for each election and each precinct at the factory. For effective vote rigging to occur, someone in the field who likely works for the state or county rather than the manufacturer has to know what's going on.

A large and growing conspiracy?
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. Question for you
Who does do the programming for each race? Is it a local functionary or a representative of the company that produced the voting machine? Is the programming done in a central location and then loaded on the individual machines? Are the machines guaranteed to be locked down both physically and electronically so nobody can access them prior to the election? I have read a number of reports of 'back doors', unauthorized changes and such that could put an election into question. I am not even saying the technician making the physical change has to know what's going on he or she may just be doing what they are told to do and loading an 'updated' version of the software. I don't think it would be that hard to parameterize the program so that it could easily be modified by a few people. I would hope that those with the job of verifying these machines know enough to check all this stuff, but the Diebold's, Sequoias, etc. insist that the code is proprietary and therefore do not like to let it be checked too closely. Personally I think the cost of the programs/machines should include full access by any appropriate agency of the government and even a government appointed outside agency. Whether the particular cases of vote switching are proven to your satisfaction or not it is a fact that a large number of voters in this country no longer trust the voting process. It is imperative that as many people as possible vote and that they are assured that there vote will be counted as cast so all reported cases of voting irregularities should be taken seriously until it is established what is actually going on.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #103
107. I don't know, but it's certainly not the corrupt application developer
Is it a local functionary or a representative of the company that produced the voting machine?

Good and relevant question. Maybe someone can enlighten us.

Is the programming done in a central location and then loaded on the individual machines?

Either way the task in a national election would be huge. The number of, let's call them firmware images should be at least twice and maybe several times the number of precincts, given that good ballot layout practices require randomizing or quasi-randomizing the order in which candidates' names appear.

I don't think it would be that hard to parameterize the program so that it could easily be modified by a few people.

I've managed a few software development projects, and I have a pretty good idea what kind of effort would be involved in testing a user-configurable biasing scheme. By users in this context I mean systems administrators, be they employees of the machine's manufacturer or techies working for the government agencies responsible for ballot preparation and presentation. Again, that would have to be much more than a handful of people; and maybe more importantly the configuration mechanism would need some kind of documentation and/or training.

Whether the particular cases of vote switching are proven to your satisfaction or not...

Or anyone else's satisfaction.

...it is a fact that a large number of voters in this country no longer trust the voting process. It is imperative that as many people as possible vote and that they are assured that there vote will be counted as cast so all reported cases of voting irregularities should be taken seriously until it is established what is actually going on.

I agree with you completely.

As I've written elsewhere, I am much more concerned about getting the truth out and raising justifiable confidence in the system than in the outcome of any particular election.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
87. Thank you Cathy Cox, Scty of State, failed Dem Gov Candidate (WARNING!)
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 04:35 AM by autorank
She did this, a Democrat. She was also a poster girl for Diebold in marketing literature.

Where was someone to crack the whip, say "Hey knock it off."

:puke:


THIS PERSON, A DEMOCRAT, IS THE REASON WE NO LONGER HAVE
MAX CLELAND AS U.S. SENATOR. SHES THE REASON GEORGIA LOST
ROY BARNES AS GOVERNOR...AUTHOR OF THE HORROR OF 2002.

Thanks Cathy, now run along to Diebold Marketing



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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. Does she know she's a traitor?
Or is she as stupid as she looks?
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xzyra Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #89
117. she lost the gay vote when she didn't even have to say anything
She gets up in support of the gay marriage ban, and lost every gay vote in Atlanta (which is a lot!)

She could have just kept her mouth shut... so I'd say "dumb as she looks"
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #89
124. haha...It's a combination deal...
She's dumb and she betrayed her party. It's not exactly an unheard of phenomenon ;)

But she's now gone...and so is her secret twin, Ralph Reed. That's what's called the

Perfecta!
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
111. Is that Medea out on the dance floor with Cynthia?


Viol! two ladies I really truly do love.
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xzyra Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
115. bring a video camera, and do not leave the booth!
If something fishy happens, practice non-violent resistance and just sit your little butt down right there in front of the machine until the police and or media comes.

If everyone who had something go wrong refused to leave until the problem was resolved, we would be able to tell how wide-spread the problem was, even if it was just from media reports of crazies who wouldn't leave the polling station.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. BINGO!!!! nt
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. Better yet, call over a poll worker from each party, a DEM and REP.
Demonstrate the problem to them and if they cannot show you what is wrong with the way you voted, ask them to take the machine out of the line. Remind them to leave the machine plugged in so it is still reproducible for when it is inspected by a technician. Then vote by provisional paper ballot.

I have been a poll worker for a long time and can assure you that we take voting seriously. We don't put in 15 hour days for our health, we firmly believe in the right to vote ACCURATELY. This kind of a glitch will not be taken lightly. That is why I am calling this report BULLSHIT!

P.S. In Ohio, you are not allowed to take pictures or videos in the polling place.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. I don't think the R's would do this
I would suggest that Republicans would love nothing more than a McKinney reelection.

I think she does the D-side more harm than good.

Nothing justifies vote tampering of course. However, in this case, I don't see the motive of the opposition party supporting her ouster.
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