Half a dozen large storms out to sea, and New Orleans is already sinking

[hedgetrimmer]

link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2207481,00.html

snip~ “The system did not perform as a system,” the report said. “The hurricane protection in New Orleans and southeast Louisiana was a system in name only.”

snip~ Residents’ confidence was shaken this week when a 400ft (120m) rebuilt stretch of levee in southern Louisiana slumped by more than 3ft.

Satellite-radar research reported in Nature magazine suggested that some areas around New Orleans are sinking four or five times faster than the rest of the city.

“My concern is the very low-lying areas,” Tim Dixon, a geophysicist, said. “Those areas are death traps. I don’t think those areas should be rebuilt.”

[Keseys Ghost]

1. On a related note...

[aquart]

2. I'd wear that.

[rodeodance]

3. Grand idea--just think of what could be done with the billions!

[jerry611]

4. Nothing we do can stop mother nature

No man-made structure will prevent New Orleans from sinking. There are parts of the city that is literally sinking more and more each year. If these people want to rebuild their house on sinking land, why are we being forced to pay for it? It's just going to get flooded again sooner or later.

Another cat-5 storm and New Orleans will be under water again no matter how high or re-inforced you make the levees. You don't fuck with mother nature. Like any female, she will always have her way in the end.

[Jacobin]

6. Tell that to Holland

[Ian David]

8. That's why they make their shoes out of wood. So they can float. n/t

[Lochloosa]

9. ...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



















Wait....that wasn't funny:shrug:

[Ian David]

10. Don't laugh. Wooden shoes is the new Homeland Security policy for NOLA

Above: Homeland Security unveils their new plan to save New Orleans-- giant wooden shoes.



Above: Homeland Security tests their new Giant Wooden Shoe as part of "Operation: Red Tide" to save New Orlans (from being a city full of Black Democrats)


Above: In the early attempts, government researches foolishly tried to use giant leather shoes as emergency flood evacuation devices.

Homeland Security also has a plan to protect the citizens of San Francisco in the event of a major earthquake (see below):

[jerry611]

11. Sorry, but you are being very ignorant....

When has Holland been hit with a category 5 hurricane??

Have you ever experienced a hurricane? Have you ever experienced a major hurricane? Well I have. And I cannot even begin to explain to you the power of such a thing. If a category 5 hurricane hit Holland. It would also be put under water.

The energy conversion in a Category 5 hurricane is on the order of 600 billion kilowatts, equal to about 200 times the world's electrical generating capacity, or 10 Hiroshima-size bombs exploding every second. And you think a concrete wall will stop that force? Give me a break. Areas of New Orleans that is under sea level and sinking need to be abandoned. If anyone rebuilds on those sinking lands, it should be at their own personal expense. And they can see what happends when they don't respect nature's most destructive force on the planet.

Look, I understand how some people feel. People grew up and were born in some of those houses. I can understand the emotion. But I also understand the power of these storms. And I assure you, New Orleans will be hit at some point in the future with another monsterous storm. And there is no man-made structure that will stop it from destroying those homes once again. At some point, you have to just move on and find some place else to live.

[Jacobin]

12. Not a nice way to play

Let me share some of my ignoranc with you.

Actually, the North Sea has intense storms which rival hurricanes. Much of coastal Holland is below sea level. They have expended a signficant amount of their treasury in building dikes and moveable seawalls for their ports. Their civil engineers are some of the best in the world.

I happen to live in Louisiana and have for over 50 years, so I'm somewhat prejudiced about my home and its preservation.

Louisiana officials hired some Dutch engineers to examine the flood control systems in Louisiana and they said it would be a simple matter from an engineering standpoint to make New Orleans safe, but they doubted that America would spend sufficient sums on its infrastructure to get the job done correctly. Sadly they are correct.

The damage done to marshes which act as a protective barrier to New Orleans have been slowly eaten away as a result of levees along the Mississippi River and as a result of oil companies digging canals in the marsh which let in too much salt water which kills protective vegetation.

The oil and gas which this country enjoys comes in a very large measure from offshore Louisiana. The oil and gas infrastructure, pumping stations, pipelines, etc are in the marsh. Its critical that money be spent to slow/halt the erosion, not only for Louisiana, its people and its fisheries, but for americans who consume the oil and gas.

I hope my ignorance hasn't impinged greatly on your overarching knowledge of coastal Louisiana.

You may now go back to calling posters ignorant

[Javaman]

18. That was possibly the most polite smack down I have ever read. :) nt

[Bacchus39]

19. levees or dikes won't stop the rain from a hurricane

the system could be overtopped from the inland side during a hurricane and not from the wave and storm surge from the sea.

you noted that the man-made system of levees is responsible for the loss of coastal marshes, yet you are advocating rebuilding the levees stronger, wider, and higher apparently at further expense to the marshes???????

In addition, restoration of the coastal wetlands would imply that the areas that were previously filled for development would be reverted back to a natural state. In other words, no-one would live there.

and Holland does NOT have hurricanes and the massive amounts of precipitation that go with it.

[Jacobin]

38. No. Its not that simple

The levees and dikes around the city do not affect sedimentation to build the marshes.

The Mississippi River levee does, in a very big way. There is a plan to allow the river to flood into the marshes using cuts in the levees that has been proposed for years to rebuild the marshes. It would cost about half of what Florida has spent on Lake Okeechobee and congress won't fund it. It would do a lot to repair the damage caused by the oil companies.

I don't think anyone advocates tearing the levees down from Cairo,IL to Venice Louisiana, since tens of millions of homes and businesses would be left to flood.

We have to do what we can. We also have to be informed. Having simplistic "fuck it" answers is not a good way to proceed.

[Bacchus39]

46. no reason to give the finger to mother nature either

if certain parts of the city cannot be safely protected at a reasonable price then they should not be repopulated.

[Jacobin]

47. Gee. Sorry to hear about San Francisco

New York and Miami.

All built either on faults or simply too low and close to the sea. too bad. so sad.

guess we'll write them off too.

BTW, where do you expect to replace 20% of the nation's oil and gas production?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

33. I'm reading an interesting book on this subject...

It's called Bayou Farewell, by Mike Tidwell. It was published in 2003. Interviews that Tidwell conducted with ecologists and bayou-dwellers all revealed opinions that concur with yours. In addition, as evidenced by the Caernarvon freshwater diversion, it seems that it is possible to restore the marshland and ultimately the dry ground that has been dwindling away ever since construction of the levees which prevent the Mississippi from flooding.

I wish you'd bring your ignorance to the nation's capitol, and present it to a few smartasses there. ;-)

[Jacobin]

37. I read that book and its excellent

Great read, informative and entertaining and lots of good stories about the various cultures thriving in the marshes.

[MGKrebs]

17. I am curious as to how that would work?

Homeowners would be given an amount, by the Feds I assume, to buy or build elsewhere, based on some assessment of their "condemned" property?

[Igel]

21. That's precisely what was done back in the '80s and '90s

when some river flood plains were deemed too likely to suffer repeated floods. It was deemed too expensive to subsidize the people that lived there any longer, and they were given the choice: stay, and pay going (non-subsidized) rates for flood insurance if they could get it; leave at the time, and get a lump-sum for their property, which would then revert to either wild or park, depending on location.

Lots of people took them up on the offer; lots of people didn't. But then, a fe years later, having rejected the first offer, they were deemed unable to actually be kept to their decision, and they were again given the same offer. Most finally took it.

We could have built huge levees ... taller and higher than the ones that failed, or new ones where they had been none. But it was deemed environmentally destructive to do so. Moreover, the numbers were crunched and it just said that the cost of subsidizing the people's housing in the flood plain cost more than it would cost to buy them out and move them. The social cost--many families had been there for decades, some for a few generations--wasn't a big factor in the decision.

This didn't create a large outcry, the numbers of people were relatively small and didn't form a coherent group (in other words, they had no politician willing to fight for them, and no activist group looking out for them).

[Lindacooks]

25. Haven't you seen pictures comparing Holland's dike system to

NO's? The comparison is amazing; Holland has a huge, technologically superior series of highly engineered structures, while NO has some walls. Crumbling walls.

[demo dutch]

40. Nonsense Katrina was a Cat 3 at landfall! Holland had the biggest flood

ever in 1953. The water rose 4 meters and 1853 people died. Half the country flooded two entire villages disappeared and the Dutch decided never again! They constructed the best levee system which was built between 1958 to 1987. The Delta Works are constructed in an swampy area where 3 rivers come together into the North sea. The majority of the Netherlands is below sea level and water has been a major threat for centuries but they choose to invest wisely (5.5 billion guilders) and tried to never put their citizens at risk again. Proper funding for maintenance is on-going. There many cities in the world that are located in Delta type areas including of which several are sinking, and they're not being abandoned!

Katrina made landfall as a category 3 and New Orleans would NOT have flooded wasn't for poor construction of the levee systems. The Corp is admitting that now. I lived through a Cat 5 (Andrew) and yes there is substantial structural damage, however homes which were properly constructed survived. Most of the damage comes from storm surge anyway. There will always be a risk, but according to your reasoning you might as well vacate the ENTIRE East Coast and the whole State of Florida because a Cat 5 may hit one day. With a "real" levee system, proper coastal restoration and proper building codes New Orleans will survive!

[barb162]

26. Interesting comment

And I am aware of these huge gates they have against the North Sea and how they operate. I am not aware, though, if they are subject to the huge storm surges such as occurred with Katrina. 30 foot storm surges hit Biloxi, southern LA, etc. Also if you look at that Al Gore film where sea levels rise 20 feet across the planet, I think survival will just mean going to higher ground and for many countries like Bangladesh, it will mean mass migration to other countries.

[dipsydoodle]

48. You didn't pick a very good example

Holland wasn't built on swamp. If anything the there land is rising same as the UK. That's where it's still recovering from ice ages which buried it under a mile of ice and obviously the recovery is only very slow.

As far as I'm aware New Orleans was built on recovered swamp. The concrete and tarmac whatever reduces the natural ability of the swamp to drain and that added to the weight of all the building materials may always cause New Orelans to sink.

[Bridget Burke]

13. The storm didn't destroy those houses....

The flooding did. I've witnessed a few big storms in Texas. The greatest damage is caused by storm surge--which only happens if you live ON the water. NOLA is not right on the coastline.

By the way--I see you live in Florida.

[mike923]

22. It's still fun and politically savy to blame it on Bush*

[coalition_unwilling]

23. From what I understand, the sinkage is caused in part by U.S. Army Corps

Engineers earlier attempts at flood control on the upper stretches of the Mississippi, combined with oil companies' creation of numerous canals through the wetlands. The result has been to destroy the coastal defenses\wetlands around NO and accelerate the course of Mother Nature.

I'm not a geologist\geographer, so I don't know whether NO would sink indpendently of man's actions in the Gulf region.

[AnOhioan]

28. You are correct

Excerpted from http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1129.html

"The major factors contributing to the loss of Louisiana's coastal lands are natural forces and processes exacerbated by human activities. The land in the region was created over thousands of years by soil that washed down from the delta, and requires constant replenishment from the river in order to offset two natural processes. The first is subsidence, or sinking land. Alluvial soils in this region naturally sink under their own weight. The underlying deposits compact, and, without additional soil being added on top, the overall land-level drops below sea level. The second natural process involves not the soil but the underlying continental crust. As more earth is deposited on top of it, the crust is forced downward in a process geologists call downwarping. Inland areas are typically protected by barrier islands, which absorb heavy storm surges from hurricanes and tropical storms. But as the barrier islands sink, the lands are vulnerable to flooding and resulting erosion.

In normal circumstances these two processes are offset by the soil that the river continues to build up in the delta. But humans have altered this process of deposition. Lowlands along the Mississippi are extremely vulnerable to flooding. In order to control these floods, officials have constructed levees along the river. While these levees keep the water out, they also keep out the soils carried by the water, which prevents the sediments carried in flood waters from supplementing the delta land and offsetting the process by which the land sinks. Although people living on sinking land are protected from floods by levees, they are more vulnerable because the land continues to sink and becomes more prone to flooding.

Another factor in this coastal land loss involves saltwater intrusion. Canals have been dug into the delta in order to provide access to oil and other mineral resources. Saltwater flows up these canals from the Gulf of Mexico and infiltrates water and soils in the area. Because the native plants have not evolved to tolerate saltwater, this intrusion often kills them. However, these plants and their root systems are often the only thing holding the loose delta soil in place and so, with the loss of plant life, soil is washed away.

While the normal cyclical flooding in the lower Mississippi replenished the soil, changes to the flow of the river have resulted in heavier flooding that instead washes away the soil. All along the Mississippi, flood-control levees have been built to divert river flow away from tributaries in flood-prone areas. In several places the river bottom has been dredged out and widened, in a process called channelization, to make navigation easier for large cargo ships. These changes have increased the volume and speed of the main river's flow, making the delta vulnerable to occasional catastrophic floods that wash away the earth."

[uppityperson]

34. which "we" are bing "forced to pay for" rebuilding homes there?

[Bridget Burke]

41. I'd rather pay for rebuilding houses in NOLA....

Along with WHATEVER infrastructure is required to protect the city--than keep paying for death in Iraq.

[uppityperson]

42. me too.

[demo dutch]

44. I second that!

[Ian David]

5. Don't worry, New Orleans! The Republicans are saving Marriage for ya!

[paparush]

7. IanDB1 - That's Great F#cking Post!!

[donsu]

14. a perfect post - thank you

nt

[noonwitch]

20. That is so well-done!

!!

[wordpix2]

24. booshie sounded hollow re: gay marriage yesterday. Could it be because

Laura left the WH over his fling with Condi? :evilgrin:

[uppityperson]

35. Excellent post. If we could recommend 1 post in a topic, this is it.

[0007]

49. Excellent!

[Ragin_mad]

15. Half a dozen large storms out to sea

What storms ?

Latest satellite image shows a front in the Bahamas. Other than that the Western Atlantic, Central Atlantic, and Caribbean are all storm free.

[Bridget Burke]

45. There are NO large storms out to sea.

According to NOAA, at least. www.tpc.ncep.noaa.gov/

[zann725]

16. Aren't there ways to "seed" clouds...to re-direct storms via magnetic tech

Seems there ARE or MUST BE scientific ways (available for years now) to avert such disasters...or at least lessen them considerably, given modern technologies.

30 years ago, in high school, they told us THEN of ways existing THEN to "seed" clouds to make storms, or NOT.

+30 years of no doubt of at least SOME scientific weather-controlling progress....

As I wonder, wonder, wonder...

[Lisa]

29. if that were possible, would you trust THIS lot with the technology?

I believe some experiments with cloud-seeding to "steer" or reduce the strength of hurricanes were tried several decades ago, and did not appear to be successful (see Lyall Watson's book "Heaven's Breath" for details) -- and in at least one case, may have made things worse.

In any case, it may be just as well that I haven't been able to find info on this being done today. Because if Bush were given a chance to put a hurricane headed for Florida or Texas on a course for New York instead, I have a nasty feeling that he just might do that.

[donsu]

30. "this lot" already has the tech in their hands and have been using it

there has been some threads on it here at DU. I posted one some time ago.

bushmilhousegang gave money to the Alaska Rep. Sen. to mess with Alaskas weather.

[SidDithers]

31. The energy associated with large storms...

is orders of magnitude bigger than anything we could generate, in an effort to change its direction or intensity. As James Doohan would have said "We just don't have enough power"

Sid

[barb162]

27. NOLA was built in a big swamp

as are many communities in that area
"The report blames the subsidence on overdevelopment, drainage and natural seismic shifts."

[lovuian]

32. New Orleans has been reclaimed by the sea its time to

let the sea have what is hers...

To rebuild or settle people when Global Warming is happening right now is ridiculous

People who own Oceanfront property are going to be swallowed up by the sea...

Reality check people!!!

[uppityperson]

36. What about anyone living oceanfront anywhere?

[Bridget Burke]

39. Or near a faultline....

Or near a "dormant" volcano.

Or near a river that can flood.

Or in Tornado Alley.

[demo dutch]

43. You'll need to vacate the entire East coast incl. the State of Florida

and everything that borders the Gulf! Not to mention other huge parts of the world!