King warns Saudi media over women

[brooklynite]

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) -- Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, under pressure from Islamists to curb reforms, has warned local media against showing pictures of Saudi women, local newspapers reported on Tuesday.

Many Saudis have said they hope the king, who came to power last year, will loosen strict political and social mores in the ultra-conservative kingdom which imposes an austere version of Islam called Wahhabism.

Newspapers have broken with tradition and have more frequently begun printing photographs of Saudi women beside stories, usually with hair covered but faces showing, which many Wahhabi Islamists consider morally wrong.

...snip...

"There are photographs published in some newspapers ... and one needs to think if he would want his daughter, sister or wife to appear like that. Of course, no one would," the king was quoted as saying at a meeting with newspaper editors late on Monday.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/16/saudi.media.reut/index.html
- - -
Our plan to bring freedom and democracy to the Middle East rumbles on...

[FreakinDJ]

1. They can't even show their hair

My eyes my eyes

My God what would happen if they saw her ankle

[ikojo]

17. I live in the orthodox Jewish section of St Louis County

and MANY orthodox women either wear wigs or snoods that cover their hair. They also wear very long skirts and long sleeve shirts.

Last summer I went to visit an orthodox friend and she answered her door wearing a hat. Her daughter had some friends over and they were wearing longs skirts and under their skirts they had on track suit pants, lest their ankles be visible while they are walking.

For shul they tend to wear colored leggings.

Not all orthodox Jews dress like this but many of those in my neighborhood do.

[meti57b]

22. That is a choice of the Orthodox Jews, though. Our gov't does not require

it. In Saudi Arabia, there is no choice.

[The Stranger]

25. Theocrats attempt to enforce their values on others wherever you go.

When they become the government, suddenly the government requires it.

[saigon68]

37. "Freedom and democracy are on the March" --- the chimp

</sarcasm>

[meti57b]

40. "attempt" is the operating word, here. I know many Orthodox Jews and .....

many people who know Orthodox Jews and they are not forced into Orthodoxy against their wills. They change their level of observance if they want. Lack of being observant does not involve the punishments that are exacted against Muslim women who stray from strict observance.

I might also point out, do you think there are enough Orthodox Jews here to take over the government any time soon?

[The Stranger]

53. Theocrats attempt to take over governments where they are not minorities.

Like that better?

[BoneDaddy]

43. Agreed

If the theocrats, (Christians, Jews, and Muslim fundamentalists) in this country had control, they would institute the same type of patriarchal, irrational nonsense backed by their same illogical belief systems.

[formercia]

38. Saudi men go to Thailand with suitcases full of money

I had a friend who was stationed there and one of the local G2 told him that the prostitutes there dislike them despite all of their money because they are pervs.

[MelliMel]

47. I'm Orthodox.

I cover my hair and wear long skirts. But I do it out of choice, not law by the state. 2 of my siblings are not Orthodox; they belong to the Conservative movement in Judaism. They have yet to be disowned or harassed in our family or in our community.

Edited for spelling.

[Warpy]

2. Yes, mustn't admit women have faces

or we might start thinking they're human.

I hate religious dumbfuckery, I really do. The nutcases always seem to go after women first and foremost and with the utmost cruelty and stupidity.

[Triana]

3. religious dumbfuckery...

..I like that term. VERY apropos. To these cretins, women are no more than animals.

[sarcasmo]

16. That term applies very well to this Country too, Kick and NOM

[Tight_rope]

19. I like it too... Best way I've heard that describes the manacles that

many religions have on women.

[FreakinDJ]

6. Sadly a long history of it in almost every religion

Accept maybe some of the Eastern Religions

Sorry I'm going off memory here. It has been a very long time since theology classes in highschool. But most bible scholars readily admit now Mary Magdalin was not a hooker, it was quite possible Jesus was gettin a little and she was the one who found the tomb opened

[NJ_Lib]

4. Thing is, most citizens are more relaxed, the people with the guns...

... on the other hand, get to make the rules...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Which people are "more relaxed"?

Sorry, it's kind of difficult to decipher your post. :shrug: MKJ

[NJ_Lib]

12. Sorry... I meant, the citizens of Saudi Arabia are in fact...

... interested in moving toward a more relaxed rule of their women, such as letting them work and drive, and the royal family at one time even considered such a thing but the royal family really has no power, compared with the religious leaders, also known as the Mullahs... The Mullahs have the last say and it's never in favor of women's advancement... Although some young students do rebel against the Mullahs from time to time, they are usually quickly outnumbered and overpowered... Hence my comment, the people with the guns win but it doesn't necessarily mean they're supported by all of their citizens... Kind of like in the US right now...

[ikojo]

18. Similar to religious life in Israel...most Israeli Jews are

not religious in any way shape or form. Most would, if permitted, be married and buried by a conservative or reform rabbi. However, the official Judaism in Israel is orthodox. The orthodox, although a minority in Israel, set the standards when it comes to religion.

I house sat for an Israeli woman who had to go to Cyprus to get married because she married a non Jew, whom she met in Israel, irony of ironies, so she could not be married in Israel.

[NJ_Lib]

23. While most of what you say is true, one thing...

... that's not exactly right is, you cannot say "most Israeli Jews are not religious in any way shape of form", because that is incorrect... While yes, granted, most of Israel is not Orthodox, they are however religious people. They do keep the holidays and most do go to worship on those holidays and they all know the bible inside and out since they learn it every day in school, for 12 years. As you say, most will not marry outside their race, as they're taught that will extinct the race eventually. But I've found most Israelis to be religious people...

[teknomanzer]

29. Limited gene pools are not good...

too great a change of recombining genetic defects. European royalty and hemophilia are a case in point. People like that need to lighten up... We hybrids are healthy, strong, and super-intelligent. We are the future.

This PSA brought to you by the Society of Multi-ethnic Americans. :grouphug:

[NJ_Lib]

46. Well said...

Amen to that...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Interesting observations.

MKJ

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Of course, it's not "no woman would want that"

It's "no man would want that for his daughter/sister/wife/other property". Then again, if the Saudi king ever started wondering what women want, such as an end to oppression, his head would probably explode.

[GodlessBiker]

9. Yes. Female opinions don't count, it seems. He is an asshole, isn't he?

[MindPilot]

8. We liberals are supposed to be tolerant and accepting of other cultures

BUT, there are those times I can't help but think there are some cultures--ours--that are just plain more advanced and BETTER than others--theirs.

There. I spoke blasphemy; flame on.

[meow2u3]

11. But tolerance and acceptance does have its limits

I don't know about you, but I have no tolerance for cultures that encourage the bullying of women and the weak: little kids, the elderly, the disabled.

That's why I have no tolerance for fundamentalist cultures. They promote an bully mentality that reward bigger, more powerful people who pick on smaller, powerless people.

[culturejam]

24. I with you on that (for the most part)

For the most part, I'm a cultural relativist. But there are things from time to time that I just cannot accept as being merely a "cultural difference." Some good examples of this are killing women who are raped because it "shames" the family and other "honor killings," sexual contact with children, state-sanctioned murder, etc. I could go on, but it's a real downer thinking about those things.

There's only so far cultural relativism can take you before you have to call it like it is.

First post, by the way.

[KAZ]

33. And a mighty good post it is!!!

Welcome to DU culturejam!

[KAZ]

32. You've blasphemed no one.

I will not tolerate subjugation of women, no matter what your culture/religion/belief/bias is. I will hunt you down and convert you. If you don't come around, I'll cap your ass.

You've been warned motherfuckers.

[Skittles]

36. HEY

we American women had to FIGHT long and hard for a lot of our rights, many of which are in danger RIGHT NOW

[REP]

39. There's Tolerant and then There's Common Sense

Ever notice that when something 'traditional' harms men as well a women, suddenly it's a human rights issue, but when it mostly harms women, then it's a cultural difference and we must tolerate it. I say bullshit. Wrong is wrong in any culture. Just because a system has been in place for a long time doesn't mean it is moral, correct or just - or that is forbidden for others to criticize it.

[Emendator]

42. Yes

"BUT, there are those times I can't help but think there are some cultures--ours--that are just plain more advanced and BETTER than others--theirs."

While our leaders make many mistakes and while it is not perfect, the West is best. There is nothing wrong with saying so. The idea of the worth of the individual is uniquely Western. We wouldn't even be having this debate in any way had Islam or any other non-Western culture been the one to achieve international prominence.

[WinkyDink]

50. I agree with you 100%. Isn't that why liberals oppose slavery , female

genital mutilation, bride-burning, etc.?

It's just that it has somehow become politically incorrect to criticize Islam. Christianity and Judaism? Fair game.

[DrDebug]

10. It doesn't apply to prince Al-Waleed bin Talal alSaud of course

Because he has his female camerawoman, female pilot and dozens of really pretty secretaries which are supposed to dress sexy for him. Then again his office is on the 100th floor or so.

[NJ_Lib]

13. Yeah, but those women aren't Saudi or even Muslim women...

... Women of non-Muslim origin can be treated as they wish, even worse than their women at home... But the RF has had their share of run-ins with the Mullahs and the religious fanatics... Probably have a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy... :)

[quiet.american]

14. Sheesh, that building looks like a giant bottle opener. n/t

[VegasWolf]

15. Jeez, I never want to see any porno from that country! nt

[Tight_rope]

20. Yeah...imagine trying to get turned on by just seeing a women's

ankel.

[goforit]

21. Men in this world have serious psychological issues. They need help.

[NJ_Lib]

27. Can we blame them, look at their...

... role models while growing up... Yikes...

[Rex]

28. What do you expect from a Monarchy?

Might as well live back in the 1500s. :eyes: Regressive, ignorant, dangerous, and he LOVES Bush! :puke:

[Kailassa]

31. Your name attached to that message is hilarious.

Not criticizing either, just enjoying a laugh.

[Rex]

48. lol true!

I couldn't pass up my chance to post about a fellow king. :evilgrin:

[JerseygirlCT]

30. They are such vile shits. Our good buddies... ugh. nt

[Bigmack]

34. Everybody interested in this topic ....

has GOTTA read "Florence of Arabia" by Christopher Buckley

"How one woman (plus a disgraced Green Beret, a shameless PR lackey, and the wife of a sheikh) brought the Middle East to the brink of female emancipation."

Wonderful... funny.... well written.... and it could actually work to bring real democracy to the Mideast.

[Matilda]

35. Quote from The West Wing, Ep. 3.18:

"This is a country where women aren't allowed to drive a car. They're not allowed to be in the
company of a man other than a close relative, they're required to adhere to a dress code that would
make the Maryknoll nuns look like Malibu Barbie. They beheaded 121 people last year for robbery,
rape, and drug trafficking, they've no free press, no elected government, no political parties, and
the royal family allows the religious police to travel in groups of six, carrying nightsticks and
they freely and publicly beat women. But "Brutus is an honorable man". Seventeen schoolgirls were
forced to burn alive because they weren't wearing the proper clothing ..... that is Saudi Arabia,
our partners in peace."

The death of the schoolgirls in a fire because they weren't wearing abayas and weren't allowed to
leave the burning building is true, of course. I guess we know how Aaron Sorkin felt about that.

[onager]

41. When I lived in Saudi Arabia, this summed up everything...

One day I was going downtown to do some shopping, on a bus full of other Americans. The group was mostly wives from our company compound.

As the bus stopped in downtown Jeddah, one of the wives had told a pretty funny (dirty) joke and we were all laughing.

We piled off the bus and came face to face with a member of the matowa (Religious Police). He was not laughing. He did speak some English, though...

"STOP THAT!"

We all looked at each other, puzzled. WTF had we done? We just got off the bus, we hadn't had time to properly offend anybody.

"Stop laughing! Is unseemly for woman to laugh in public!"

Another time I was trying to have a peaceful Chinese dinner, in a very nice restaurant, during the Prayer Call. That was a little tricky. In Saudi Arabia, EVERYTHING closes during the Prayer Call. Offices and restaurants shut and lock their doors.

So if you got caught outside, you couldn't do anything except watch people pray. You even had to be careful while walking. You might walk in front of someone praying, thereby cutting off his line of sight to Mecca (offensive) or step on his prayer rug (very offensive).

But this night, I was safe and sound. Like all restaurants in Saudi Arabia, this one had a "Family Section." (You should read that as "Women's Section.")

Technically, only males were allowed in the nicer, front part of the restaurant. But on this particular night, an elderly British couple, husband and wife, were sitting in the section.

In swooped the Religious Police, several of them, accompanied as usual by a real cop with a gun. That was the usual scenario, since the R.P. are not "police" in the real sense--they're basically government-funded busybodies who spy on their neighbors for "un-Islamic behavior."

Besides, Saudi Arabian history is full of Unpleasant Incidents involving religous lunatics with guns, and most of those incidents involved attempted armed coups against the royal family.

They went right over to this nice old couple and harassed them for about 20 minutes, until the Prayer Call was over.

The harassment included demanding to see their passports. That's insulting in the context of Saudi Arabia, because the R.P. make it very clear what they're doing. They are checking to see that the passports have the same last name and the couple is married. Otherwise the woman can be deported immediately for "prostitution" and the man will go to jail. That happened to one of our employees and his Filipino girlfriend when they went out to dinner.

Then there was the humiliating browbeating of the couple about WHY they had dared to sit in the men-only section of the restuarant, when one of them was clearly a degenerate, unworthy female person.

The couple tried to explain that they just wanted to have a quiet dinner, and the tons of little kids in the "Family Section" were very noisy.

The R.P. finally left, after issuing a stern warning to the couple to NEVER sit in the men's section of a restaurant again.

Jeez, and people still ask me why I'm an Angry Whackjob Atheist...

[treestar]

45. It almost sounds dangerous for a foreigner to live there

If they decide to put you in jail, you're in jail - no recourse.

[onager]

49. That's partly true...

Though if you work for an American company, they will try to get you out ASAP. The key word is "try." If you've done something that really pissed off the Saudis, they can delay your release for a long time.

If you get arrested on a Wednesday you'll almost certainly be in jail for at least 2 days. Thursday and Friday are the weekend in Saudi Arabia. The normal work week is Saturday thru Wednesday. So if you get jugged on Wednesday night, anyone trying to get you out will be told to come back on Saturday.

In general, the Saudis turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff foreigners do. Or at least foreigners who work for large companies. The other "guest workers" in the country--Thais, Filipinos, Indonesians--are pretty much treated like slaves.

They don't ALWAYS turn a blind eye, though. When I was over there, 2 Brits were caught out in town drunk and arrested.

The Saudis sentenced them to 200 lashes each, to be administered over 4 weeks (50 lashes per week). Part of the sentence stipulated that the whipping had to be done in public, i.e., on the compound where the workers lived. That caused a huge uproar, and I think they did finally get the whippings.

BTW, if you're ever in Saudi Arabia, do not get arrested for "highway robbery." The penalty for that crime is crucifixion.

[WinkyDink]

51. I think they turn that blind eye also towards what THE PRINCES DO,

once outside their country.
Hedonists under the robes.

[RCinBrooklyn]

44. KINGDOM POLICY: Women are to be owned - not seen or heard.

[Zorra]

52. Radical Islamic fundamentalism has obviously led to a high incidence

of unwholesome sexual perversity among the males of Saudi Arabia.

It's not surprising that it was Saudis who senselessly killed so many innocent people on 9/11 - the kooky religious mores forced upon them from childhood made them insane by any reasonable social standard.

Senseless and unnatural sexually repressive religious dogma has turned many republicans in America into violent perverts also.