LAT: Airman Is Shot After Brief Chase

[question everything]

From the Los Angeles Times

Airman Is Shot After Brief Chase

A deputy's shooting of a car passenger in Chino was videotaped. The man was wounded while apparently obeying the officer's order to get up.
By Lance Pugmire and Michelle Keller
Times Staff Writers

January 31, 2006

A San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy shot an Air Force security officer late Sunday night after the airman told the deputy that he was in the military and "on your side." A videotape of the incident, which was shot on a residential Chino street about 10:30 p.m., was of poor quality, showing only a silhouette of the deputy and the face of the man who was shot — illuminated by the deputy's flashlight. But the tape appears to show the deputy opening fire as the man was trying to comply with the officer's apparent order to stand up.

Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, had been riding as a passenger in a Corvette that was involved in a brief, high-speed chase with the deputy that reached speeds of 100 mph before the Corvette crashed into a fence, authorities said.

The videotape, shot by Chino resident Jose Luis Valdes, shows Carrion sprawled on the ground and repeatedly telling the deputy, "I'm on your side."

The deputy then seems to shout, "Get up!" after which Carrion appears to lean forward. "I'm going to get up, all right?" he says. The deputy then fires his gun three or four times from about five feet away. "Shut … up, you don't get up …!" he shouts. Moaning in pain, Carrion responds: "You told me to get up."

(snip)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-highspeed31jan31,0,4417415.story?coll=la-headlines-california

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

1. Dear god, this sort of thing sickens me.

I sure feel safe.

[Sequoia]

2. The war at home. This is horrid.

....However, the chief of police said the officer was just doing his job. "Hey, we kill kids, so big deal. People oughta know we're the guys in charge." he quipped.

<sarcasim of course>

[pocket]

3. Hey, we kill kids, so big deal.

cops or air force?

Oh yeah, they both do.

[sui generis]

4. RULE #1:

Don't break the law. High speed chases with cops, very bad. They don't tend to believe you when you say "I'm on your side".

Just the same, I wonder what REALLY happened. "y'don't'GET UP", I said DON'T get up.

Bad for everyone.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. That didn't take long.

[sui generis]

7. what's your point?

could you be a little less cryptic?

OH. You mean that someone would actually try to see both sides and be fair minded instead of pissing and moaning about the evil cop?

That was my point.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

17. You have no place blaming the guy who got shot, none of us do

The article, and you would know this already if you had read the whole thing, states that Carrion- the guy who got shot by the triggerhappy cop- has not, I repeat not been charged with a crime. Further, Carrion's wife states that in the part of the video she saw, he had his hands raised. Not only that, but he was not driving, and therefore was not in control of the vehicle. For all you know, he was trying to stop the chase from his end the entire time!

We'll see what he has to say about all of it- if he lives.

[sui generis]

22. please. do go on.

again, if you say something stupid about licking and sucking to me I'll eat your liver too.

Having said that, I replied to your other post below. I am fairly neutral here. I am being lambasted for not taking sides - and that is what has my dander up.

And I read the article. So the other thing that has my dander up is the lame attempts at snarkery. I hate passive aggressive interactions. Say what you mean or don't say it.

Constructively, the policeman cannot be charged with a crime, yet. It's too early. Furthermore I doubt that he will be. I don't think he's particularly happy that he shot the guy at all either. Most people don't become cops to go big game hunting, believe it or not.

The world is not full of clear heros and clear villains in every situation, often neither. I'll reserve my rush to judgement.

[Zhade]

46. The question is, do you think he SHOULD be charged with a crime?

NT!

[FogerRox]

66. Zhade: Just beautifull--- LOL

[Lochloosa]

21. ...

:rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[superconnected]

45. count me too.

Eww. Are you sure you are on the right site.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Self delete

thanks mods

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Point?

.
Here's a picture of the victim.

Having been on the receiving end of unwarranted violence by people paid to protect me, I read the entire piece and would tend to think that we had a very over-amped guy with a gun who was still feeling the adrenalin of the chase.

I hope the test him for steroids.

[saigon68]

13. I wonder if Elio Carrion,was a minority

If so this makes sense--cops like to beat up or shoot minorities.

They get away with it too

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

14. He appears to be Hispanic from the photo in the story.

[saigon68]

18. Then he's lucky to be alive---- 4 shots from 5 feet

This cop is either a bad shot or some kind of (SO) Special Olympian

[mitchtv]

35. Hispanic what a fucking suprise

Nothing new here , move along

[951-Riverside]

39. ...I hope you are being sarcastic

[Occulus]

16. you forgot the sarcasm tag n/t

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithras61]

23. Just curious...

The airman was a passenger, right? So now riding in a car when the driver violates the law is grounds for being shot?

[sui generis]

26. what do you really believe?

please be honest with me. This is supposed to be constructive, not a posturing fest.

First let's remove the mistaken premise you have that I believe he deserved to be shot at all, passenger or not.

[Mithras61]

28. I realy believe that you implied it was grounds...

Your statement:

RULE #1:

Don't break the law. High speed chases with cops, very bad. They don't tend to believe you when you say "I'm on your side".

Since he DIDN'T break the law (since when is being a passenger with a nut case against the law?), and since he may in fact have been the reason the Corvette was stopped, maybe blazing away was a stupid thing to do. Especially in light of the fact that he appeared to be attempting to cooperate according to multiple news sources (and I BELIEVE the video tape)...

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-airman-shooting,0,5991941.story

Video Shows Officer Shooting Airman

By Associated Press

January 31, 2006, 12:18 PM EST

CHINO, Calif. -- A videotape released Tuesday shows a sheriff's deputy shooting an unarmed Air Force policeman who recently returned from Iraq as he appeared to obey an order to get up off the ground.

KTLA-TV broadcast a 40-second clip it said came from a Chino resident who videotaped Sunday night's shooting, which followed a 100 mph car chase.


Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, was listed in good condition at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. He was shot three times in the chest, ribs and leg, his father-in-law, Ernesto Paz, told KTLA-TV.

Carrion was a passenger in a Corvette that crashed into a wall following the brief chase, authorities said.

Anyway, perhaps you could clarify your previous post, since it seems to have generated some negative responses. Also, you seem to be looking for a fight, since I asked for clarification and you responded in what could be perceived as being in a negative fashion by assuming I am posturing. I asked for CLARIFICATION OF YOUR POSITION.

If you prefer a fight, though, you'll need to look elsewhere. I don't have the time or the interest in quarrelling over what appears to be a stupid act by an angry cop.

Edited to add link...

[sui generis]

29. sorry not looking for a fight

however, when people come swinging in on a vine and flinging poop be prepared to take cover.

I'm saying that with a smile, not malice.

I really tried to be neutral and balanced here. It would appear that neutrality is not allowed - but for the record, I also don't care.

I cared enough to post my opinion, and I care enough to explain my rationale. Can you imagine how absurd it would sound if I disagreed with you AND issued a personal judgement of you for having your opinion?

Just skim the thread again, for the record.

Also nobody has answered how they would have felt had the two unidentified male passengers involved in the high speed chase run over a kid on a bicycle or a two year old running out between cars in that neighborhood.

I really am neutral. I just don't like general posturing aimed at me - sorry if you took that personally.

[Mithras61]

34. For the record...

if a couple of males in a Corvette came racing through my neighborhood and ran over a child, I'd be seriously pissed AT THE DRIVER, not at the passenger, unl;ess the passenger was holding the driver at gunpoint or somehow MAKING the driver behave in that fashion.

All the evidence indicates that the airman was trying to cooperate, which tells me it is UNLIKELY that he was doing anything to MAKE the driver behave in that fashion.

Also, (since this board only shows when you click "Post Message" and not when you started your post), I actually created that post and was called away from my desk while it was in process. There is obviously no way you could know that. I didn't get to see the other "conversation" you were in until after I had posted. I did not see anything to make me want to change my question after I posted it, though, since you hadn't really addressed that question in any other posts.

As it happens, I live near an intersection that tends to have a lot of fatalities. It seems that the rich kids coming out of the neighboring subdivision tend to drive around intoxicated or otherwise impaired and cross out in front of high-speed drunks passing through on the main street. The latest incident involved the deaths of three young girls who were all on X and a drunk driving through at over 85 (in a 35 zone). There wasn't much left of either cars or people. I tend to believe that driving at high speeds through neighborhoods with people in them (as if there was another kind:)) is a really stupid thing to do, and has a tendency to enforce the law of stupid people (stupid people tend to be unwilling to die quietly and want to take others - usually innocents - with them).

Anyway, you have stated that you don't believe the airman should have been shot, and I appreciate that info. If things had been handled properly, both the driver and the airman would have been arrested, and (presuming the airman is innocent) the airman would have been released once it was determined that he had nothing to do with why the Corvette driver was being stupid.

[cannabis_flower]

40. How I would feel..

if the person driving the car had run over some kids is that THE PERSON DRIVING THE CAR was a scumbag who deserved to have the book thrown at him.

As for the person that is the passenger, I would have to have a lot more information, because, as I said, he could have been an innocent bystander or even a hostage.

[TX-RAT]

44. Let me try Sui

First off it doesn't matter who's driving the vehicle, fleeing to allude at speeds of 100 mph,requires a mandatory felony stop in this state, failure to do so could cost him his job. Everybody in the vehicle will be called out and put on the ground, at gun point. Once everybody has been cuffed and secured, then and only then will the officer start his questioning. Him telling the officer he's on his side is meaningless, he's still under investigation. Without seeing the video, or hearing the tape ( most likely the officer was wearing a recording device)i refuse to pass judgment.
Lots of questions to be asked.

First one i want to know is why is a Military police officer involved (directly or indirectly) in a high speed chase with a Deputy.

[951-Riverside]

48. Without starting a new argument I saw the tape this morning

40 secs of it aired on KTLA and it will probably air again tonight on the 10PM newscast hopefully someone will cap it this time but I can tell you everything that was described in the LA Times article happened in the video but I also agree its unfair for you to pass judgement without seeing it for yourself.

[sui generis]

50. Thanks -

Yeah, I kind of figured there was an extreme bias here when "trigger happy pigs" and "heros and zeros" are used so generously by these folks.

I can see why you'd get a little touchy now, TX. I have seen it with my own eyes now - if you're not with us, you're a trigger happy pig loving freeper too! Yoiks.

Don't worry; the only one who is still blasting away is not worth getting into it with. I'll translate Mithras' latin for you, you'll get a kick out of it.

[Casablanca]

36. "Don't break the law" ... "High speed chases with cops bad" ...

Thanks for setting all of us straight about that, but what's your point?

Regardless of who is eventually held responsible for the high-speed chase, the fact remains that a cop that shoots an unarmed person several times for OBEYING AN ORDER to get up off the ground *is* evil, *is* a sociopathic creep, and should have his badge taken away for his safety and everyone else's. If the airman had died, that cop would be justifiably charged as a murderer, so he should be counting himself very f-cking lucky to have dodged his own bullet right now.

And if you were the person getting shot in the chest for obeying an order, I doubt you'd be apologizing for the cop.

I think it says something when someone who has just survived the real chaos of Iraq keeps himself cool, and gets rewarded for it by getting shot by a trigger-happy creep with a badge who has probably never seen anything close to real war in his life.

[sui generis]

37. did ya'll get the same email?

:rofl:

there are more than two other posts by me here. You really should go read first. Then get back to me.

[Mithras61]

42. As my dear father says...

"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."

:)

[sui generis]

43. A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants?

Thanks - got the message. :rofl: that was a good one, and true.

[Rex]

47. RULE #2

Read the entire article before posting. :eyes:

[sui generis]

52. or the entire thread

yes, my eyes click when they roll too. :P

[LisaL]

56. The guy who was shot wasn't even driving.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

64. I just saw the video on KO

Deputy: Get up!
Victim: Okay, I'm going to get up. (Slowly starts to rise)
Deputy: Bang, bang, bang. (he shoots him in cold blood)

That's what really happened. I saw it, I heard it.

[Poll_Blind]

5. K&R. This is why police get a bad name. n/t

PB

[Zhade]

49. I'd say refusing to prosecute cops like this is the reason.

NT!

[High Plains]

10. Wanna bet this deputy never gets indicted?

Let alone convicted?

I'm sure the deputy knows the drill: "I thought he had a gun and I feared for my life."

[AX10]

11. Hero gets shot by Zero.

My bet is the deputy will never be charged.

Just so the dim one's understand, the Airforce Officer is the Hero. So now guess who the Zero is.

[sui generis]

12. well, now that you've put the world into black and white for us dim ones

what the fuck does hero have to do with anything?

I am beyond irritated. Both of them were wrong. One of them was involved in a serious and possibly violent crime, and the other one was a trigger happy idiot.

They're both HUMAN, not heros or zeros in your clever little world. They both made human mistakes, for anyone who is too fucking dim to get it without issuing some kind of lame ass righteous judgement.

[Poll_Blind]

15. Couldn't agree more, Sui. n/t

PB

[Occulus]

19. The article doesn't say he was "involved"

The article does say he hasn't been charged, but the incident is under investigation. They probably can't take his statement yet- seeing as how he all shot up.

So stop saying he was involved, because nobody knows anything of the kind.

edit: I mean "involved" in the same spirit you do; i.e., he had something to do with it. For all we know, he was trying to stop the chase from the passenger's seat.

[sui generis]

25. Of course, but the driver of the vehicle would have to

corroborate that.

Occams Razor is a good place to start here though and that explanation is unlikely. I'm not judging, just saying that villifying the police officer as a minority hunting evil person is absurd.

In his observation, people in high speed chases don't want to get caught, and they usually have a pretty good reason (to them) why they shouldn't be caught. When was the last time your adrenaline was up (besides here on DU ;))?

I know that people expect the time between action and reaction to be nearly instantaneous, because they're thinking faster, their heart rate is up, their blood pressure is in orbit, and add to that anger and fear and you have a situation likely to overcome even rigorous training. I'm not standing up for him - just saying I can understand how a mistake like that could be made and it not immediately be qualified as a "crime".

Now if the guy has a history of being abusive or bigoted or poor judgement there might definitely be a case there.

The whole thing is unfortunate. I don't think that airman, heat of the moment aside, criminal intent or not, thought "I'd like to go play tag with the LAPD today".

[tblue37]

58. When my son was in college his roommate

was in the car with a high school friend of theirs. The friend got into a high-speed chase with a cop. The roommate begged him to stop, but the driver just said, "You pussy! If you're so scared put on your f---ing seatbelt!"

Brandon did just that, and shortly thereafter they crested a hill and went into the air. The other boy died instantly of a broken neck when he wrapped his car around a tree. Brandon had 20 stitches, but survived because of that seatbelt.

Brandon was in no way "involved" in the other boy's decision to get stupid with a cop. He was begging the young fool to stop. That may very well be what the young airman was doing, too.

BTW, look at this passage from the end of the article:

As she awaited an update on her husband's condition following his surgery, Mariela Carrion expressed her anger with Escobedo for allegedly speeding away from the deputy.

Escobedo was due in San Bernardino County Superior Court on Thursday for a hearing following his March 2005 arrest for driving under the influence of alcohol and four other citations, including operating an unsafe vehicle.

He served a year on probation and was fined $365 after pleading guilty to disturbing the peace following a speeding arrest in June 2003.

Carrion's wife said that if her husband had been driving, this never would have happened.

"My husband would never do that," Mariela Carrion said. "He drives like a turtle."

It looks as though the driver was just the sort of idiot who gets into this sort of chase, and that the airman was just an unlucky passenger.

Also, concerning sui generis's comment about speeding drivers having a reason for running from a cop: in the case I describe above, the driver had a 6-pack in the car, and didn't want to get an MIP citation.

[saigon68]

24. I am glad you not really as growly as he appears from posts

Lighten up and have fun

[sui generis]

27. hah!

you got me.

It's so hard being the only right person here some days. Sigh. Some other people on this thread could use that advice though.

Thanks for reminding me to be less growly.

:P

[saigon68]

38. I enjoy your wit

You are "One of a Kind"

:-) :-)

[Zhade]

51. Guilty before proven innocent?

Excuse the thought, but shouldn't you actually know that the victim was involved in criminal activity before asserting, without evidence, that he was "in the wrong"?

What, precisely, leads you to conclude that the victim who complied with the cop only to get shot for his efforts did anything wrong?

[Judi Lynn]

30. Video Shows Officer Shooting Airman

Video Shows Officer Shooting Airman
By Associated Press
January 31, 2006, 12:18 PM EST

CHINO, Calif. -- A videotape released Tuesday shows a sheriff's deputy shooting an unarmed Air Force policeman who recently returned from Iraq as he appeared to obey an order to get up off the ground.

KTLA-TV broadcast a 40-second clip it said came from a Chino resident who videotaped Sunday night's shooting, which followed a 100 mph car chase.
Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, was listed in good condition at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. He was shot three times in the chest, ribs and leg, his father-in-law, Ernesto Paz, told KTLA-TV.

Carrion was a passenger in a Corvette that crashed into a wall following the brief chase, authorities said.

The dark, grainy videotape shows Carrion lying on the ground next to the car, talking to a silhouetted officer who is pointing a gun at him. Carrion supports himself on one arm and his face is brightly lit by the officer's flashlight.

Carrion is heard telling the officer he is unarmed and is in the military.
(snip/...)

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-airman-shooting,0,2202281.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demosincebirth]

33. I always say that they are a nessesary evil to protect us from other

evil. Just like lawyers...we don't like 'em, but we got to have 'em.

I have a nephew thats a policeman in SF, and he even rubs me the wrong way, at times, with his "shoot and ask questions later" attitude.

[Zhade]

54. A post calling some police 'pigs' merits deletion?

DU is not as free as it used to be, I fear.

[951-Riverside]

61. OT: Are there other democratic forums similar to DU?

Sad to say but If this forum which I've been following for many years turns into a sinking ship I would like to have something else available so I can continue to follow events & issues that affect democrats like myself.

[High Plains]

62. I know the feeling. Try this one:

Progressive Independent http://www.progressiveindependent.com/

[951-Riverside]

63. Thank You n/t

[FogerRox]

67. in the late 1960's -- early 1970's Cops were called pigs all the time

"Oink oink " was common too.

[Selatius]

32. For a second, I thought it was another "suicide by cop" incident

I remember last year a US soldier, who didn't want to go back to Iraq for another tour of duty, for whatever reason, robbed a store in order to provoke a confrontation with the police. He gunned down an officer or two and wounded several others, if I remember correctly, before being killed.

[Chomskyite]

53. Makes me recall Richard Pryor's great bit

If you're black (or in this poor feller's case apparently, Hispanic), you'd best say to the cop who stops you, "I AM REACHING FOR MY LICENSE!!! OK!?!?"

[saigon68]

55. Kick

[951-Riverside]

59. KABC7 might be showing the video in a *few* mins

[951-Riverside]

60. If you live in Los Angeles area keep an eye on KNBC4,KCBS2 and KABC7 @ 5PM

They will probably be showing the video again also keep an eye on this page they might upload the video within the hour. http://cbs2.com/video

[classics]

65. Just saw the tape on MSNBC

Looks like attempted murder to me.

[bling bling]

68. This sounds like a nightmare.

If this story is the true play-by-play of events it's sickening. I feel frustrated on behalf of all the good cops who will find themselves tainted in the eyes of many by this officer's actions.

[Moderator]

69. Locking

This thread has turned into a flamewar.