Mormon Missionaries Murdered

[baal]

How can this sort of thing happen.....see what you get for trying to do good.
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=97581&ran=215175

[monobrau]

1. Good?

Spreading the cult of mormonism isn't something I would describe as "good".
I find a simple door slam is sufficient.

[LostinVA]

49. Agreed -- the murders are horrendous... however

the Mormons aren't exactly spreading a message of love, tolerance, and equality. And, the young men on their missions are only supposed to proselytize to the Gentiles, not "do good."

However, as I stated, the murders are appalling.

[matcom]

2. while the murder of anyone is horrendous

there is PLENTY of argument in the 'good' many Missionaries do.

[baal]

7. I didn't know these specific missionaries

But I am very familiar with the 'good' they do. They were the FIRST on the ground helping to rebuild after Katrina. Working unheralded and mostly in obscurity, no news coverage or TV appearances. They helped my uncle in New York move across town simply because they saw him struggling down some stairs with a chair. Neither my uncle or I are Mormons. But these kids saw someone who needed help and just pitched in and refused all payment. They don't recieve any money from their church, they work for two years out of their own pockets. and when they're not physically working for someone elses 'good' , theyre out on the streets going door to door preaching what they believe is the truth. they may not have been killed for that, but it is a shame that Billy Joel has been proven right again..."Only the Good Die Young"

[matcom]

9. i don't know about these 2 either

but i would like you to read "Tales of a Shaman's Apprentice" (Mark Plotkin) if you would like to know what I think of Missionaries and the HARM they can do in the world in general.

[The Straight Story]

121. Missionaries spread their beliefs, kind of like we do our political ones

flyers, door to door, calls for campaigns, working the streets, and so on and so forth.

Maybe we could learn to do a better job from them - or maybe they believe more strongly in what they are saying than we do because they are out all the time meeting and talking to people while we are here on an internet board ranting :)

How many people have we converted to democrats today to help save our country from evil satan bush?

[Gormy Cuss]

25. The 'good' they do is debatable. The murder is tragic regardless.

My encounters with young urban missionaries have always made me wonder how they survive. They struck me as ill-prepared for life in the diverse Eastern cities and ill-prepared for the specific racial, ethnic, and cultural dynamics. White kids in conservative clothing wearing tags that described them as 'elders' stuck out like sore thumbs in the neighborhoods of the older Boston communities. I saw them get told to get lost in the coarsest of ways on mass transit because they just ignored any polite rebuffs. These 'elders' were sorely lacking in street smarts.

It is still tragic that the pair in VA were shot.

[LostinVA]

51. Link to the first claim?

I doubt this is true.

And, to be frank, their message of incredible intolerance against women and gays especially, cancels out any good they as a church do. I'm glad your uncle was helped, but you need to read up on their history and beliefs. I know plenty of Christians, Jews, and Muslims are also homophobic and sexist, but most of their attitudes cannot eb found in their scripture and doctrine (and, I don't consider the Mormons truly Christian, that's why I'm not including them in the term "Christian").

[stanwyck]

61. Read Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven"

my problem with the Mormon Church has been their relunctance to rein in those who are abusing women (in this case, more than abuse -- murder)and the Mormon men who have set themselves up as fuedal lords over numerous families who are supported by welfare. The polygamy, while illegal, is overlooked by the Mormons in power in Utah.
Sure, there are many Mormons who "do good". That doesn't excuse their relunctance to help the teenaged girls who are being married off to middle-aged and elderly men without their consent.
And the history of the Mormon church is very racist and sexist. To deny that is to be dishonest.

[Realityhack]

77. I think you need to find some diffrent propoganda.

The splinter groups you are talking about are like condeming christians becaus hitler was one or some wacko cult with a pile of guns.

Not arguing for them... I don't like their policies but you are making your argument extreamly weak at best by going too far and siting rather poor sorces.

[TexasBushwhacker]

80. Sorry but ....

members of mainstream LDS have been covering for these splinter groups for decades. They never arrest them for plural marriage or child abuse. The perps are white males. The victims are children and females. They are in Utah by the THOUSANDS and they aren't in jail.

Nevertheless, the murder of these young people is a shame.

[Realityhack]

86. Sortof...

You do need to seperate the actions of members from the official church, no church has 100% controll over its members.

Also law enforcment has a notoriously hard time prosocuting those groups even when they try.

Your average mormon is apalled by child abuse, etc.

[stanwyck]

94. What isn't factual in Krakauer's book?

Have you read the book? If so, what is inaccurate? Are you aware of the murder which is the book's subject? How much do you know about the Mormon communities in Utah?

[manic expression]

75. 'Good'?

Missionaries are the worst force on this planet. They destroy cultures and rape them of their spiritual wealth.

I think you are forgetting that missionaries have demanded conversions for aid.

Oh, gee, I helped someone move in next door, does that give me the right to throw a religion in someone's face? :eyes:

That "truth" is nothing but obnoxious, unneeded propaganda that they should keep to themselves. PERIOD.

[Zhade]

89. Been there, seen that, read the pamphlet.

They are helpful - but let them keep helping, and often the hints start being dropped.

It's a delayed-returns scam.

[fishwax]

101. they were first on the ground after katrina?

got a link to support that claim?

[0007]

106. Wasn't Brownie a Mormon?

[blitzen]

122. You're right...I'm a total Atheist, but I love Mormon missionaries...

My wife and I have had several pairs of Mormon missionaries over for dinner in the past few years. They are always excellent company, and they do not talk religion if you tell them you're not interested. They are good young people appreciative of a hot meal and eager to converse. And volunteer work is definitely a big part of their mission.

[eridani]

123. And they are a major boon to genealogists as well.

One of their peculiar beliefs requires that they maintain extensive files on the ancestry of just about everybody. Their geneaological advisers are top-notch, and free. (Microfilms are comparatively cheap as well.)

[mike_c]

3. with all due respect...

Your post is a bit off the mark. At least so far there is no reason to suspect that these young men were shot "for trying to do good." God knows why they were shot, but "for trying to do good" hardly seems like even a twisted justification.

[demnan]

4. It's easy to understand this

the Mormon church has had a severely racist attitude for years. They don't even allow blacks into their church. They should park those bikes elsewhere and not venture forth in predominantly black areas.

[ohiosmith]

8. Wrong! The Mormon church as more than a quarter of a million

black members.

[BrotherBuzz]

10. Blacks are now allowed in the Mormon church

although I understand there is a ceiling as to how high they can move in the power structure; blacks are excluded from becoming Bishops.

Interesting, many, many years ago when we transitioned from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts and us tenderfoots were invited to a troop meeting that was sponsored by the local Mormon church. All my buddies from our Cub Scout 'Den' were invited except for the one black kid. We asked why he wasn't invited and we were told...well, that was many years ago but it soured my opinion of the Mormon culture and their racist attitude for life.

[baal]

12. No, I'm sure Blacks can be Bishops

I called a Mormon Bishop I know and asked him, he said there are many black bishops.

[BrotherBuzz]

17. Not when I was a kid

I understand they lifted the restriction on the priesthood in 1978 but my experience with them back in the early sixties paints a less then pleasant picture.

[politicat]

23. Actually, no, in practice.

African-American members are still (unofficially and tacitly) limited to holding only the first level of the Melchizedek priesthood. They do not often become Bishops, Stake presidents or otherwise rise in the power structure of the church. Mixed marriage is strongly discouraged and of course, women are absolutely second class citizens, holding no power within the church. Most of the black bishops mentioned are not in the US, but in South America and South East Asia, where the church has had some success in conversion if bribery (via food assistance, usually) can be considered success. There are very few US based black bishops and the US is where the power base is. There's only one black member of the Seventy.

Most missionaries do not assist in community issues; their mandate is not to serve the community but to convert it. The church sends no medical, educational or infrastructural missionaries, unlike other faiths - all Mormon missionaries have the primary directive to convert others and to assist only if it does not interfere in the prime directive.

While it is a tragedy that these young men died, and I hope their families are comforted by their own beliefs, I don't have a lot of sympathy for their faith. I grew up in Mormon communities and I know their policies and practices quite well.

[PassingFair]

66. You know...

it should also have soured your opinion of the Cub Scouts. If it were MY group, they would NOT have attended WITHOUT the black kid. Jeez.

If I had a son, he would be excluded from the Boy Scouts because we are a secular family.


I hope your experience was LONG ago.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. I'm not a Mormon, but please stop saying that the church is racist.

Latter-day Saints ("Mormons") are often unfairly and improperly accused of being racists. Racist attitudes in various forms have permeated human civilization throughout the ages, and white Latter-day Saints in the past often shared the same assumptions and attitudes that were dominant among white Americans. However, the modern Church is outspoken against racism, and the official doctrines of the Church have long taught that all people of all races are sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father and can be heirs of salvation. However, until 1978, there was a restriction on the priesthood that excluded many blacks. -
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml


BlackLDS.org: Dedicated to Black Members of the Church

[LostinVA]

53. They are racist -- very, very racist

Their doctrine/scriptures preach that Blacks are not truly human, and are basically demons in human form. They lifted the restriction on priesthood because of public pressure, but the belief is still there. Nothing has changed under the surface.

[Realityhack]

79. Simply not true.

Thats totaly false.

Yes they had a restriction. Arguably it was lifted because of political preasure... but claiming they teach that blacks are not truely human is 100% fabricated. It is clear your main contact with them is anti-mormon propoganda.

They may be racist Its certianly arguable. But making shit up is not a valid debate tactic.

[Xithras]

100. Incorrect. They believed that blacks were the descendants of Cain.

The Bible says that the descendants of Cain were marked, and the Mormons believed that black skin was the "mark". They didn't believe they weren't human, but they did believe that they were born cursed (note that Mormons believe that even cursed people can be saved, so being black didn't mean you couldn't get to heaven, it just meant you had to try a little harder). The racism in the Mormon church came from the people running it, not their scriptures.

Just a point, but Joseph Smith himself was anti-slavery, and said many times that blacks could be equals with whites if whites would let them be. There's also the story about Joseph Smiths stint as a mayor of a town in Ill. In one instance, a black man had been caught stealing from a white man, who had beaten him in return. He gave the black man a small fine, and had the white man imprisoned for the assault...outraging people at the time. In another story, a black man was arrested for selling alcohol on Sundays. The man explained that he had broken the law because he was trying to raise money to buy his daughter out of slavery. Smith fined him as the law required, but gave the man his personal horse to sell and not only pay his fine, but buy his daughter out of bondage.

The later church may have been infested with racists, but it wasn't founded that way. Oh, and I'm not Mormon...I'm Catholic :)

[fishwax]

104. Actually, that's not exactly true

Racists from any number of faiths once believed that dark skin was the mark of cain, though this is hardly explicit in the old testament. However, mormon scriptures (specifically in The Pearl of Great Price, one of three books with which mormons supplement the bible) explicitly made the connection with black skin/characteristics to the mark of cain and the curse of ham. (Considering that when the pearl of great price was written the country was building towards civil war, and many of those arguing for slavery used the whole "mark of cain" argument, it isn't surprising that this book would reflect that argument.) It has been a long time since I picked up that book, but i remember the racism of this connection being quite clear. The racism comes both from the scriptures and from the people running it. (strictly speaking, while one can distinguish b/w written scripture and the official declarations of the prophet, both carry the weight of church doctrine anyway.)

As for Joseph Smith, I've heard stories such as those you mention, but I'm not entirely convinced they aren't apocryphal. I've never seen a written account, anyway. Smith did oppose slavery (his successor brigham young's record is more mixed on that, iirc), but he steadfastly stood by his argument that blacks were barred from the priesthood, and while he permitted them to become members of the church, they were, smith said, barred from the higher kingdoms of heaven.

[Realityhack]

132. There is a minor problem there

Just because they have the 'mark of cane' does not mean they are actualy bad... just that their ancestors were part of a particular group. The Mormons are quite clear on that these days. Churches can and do change. I think you will find the average morman may be bigoted just like others but not expecialy so because of their religion and perhapse less so.

[fishwax]

142. nothing I said was incorrect, and to ignore the obvious racial implication

of the mark of cain and the curse of ham is pure folly. The mark of Cain was the mark of a murderer, after all, and a curse is a curse.

The Mormons are quite clear on that these days. <\i>

The Mormons are quite clear on what these days? They have allowed blacks to enter the priesthood, and their official policy no longer explicitly practices discrimination. However, they have never officially renounced the "racial curse" theology. (There was some discussion that they might do it in 1998, but it didn't happen.) Basically, the mormons argue that the revelation of 1978 revealed that the curse of ham was not in effect. They have never said it wasn't in effect or that it wasn't real.

Churches certainly cand and certainly do change, as the LDS church has.

I think you will find the average morman may be bigoted just like others but not expecialy so because of their religion and perhapse less so. <\i>

The first part of that statement I can agree with, the last part not at all. I know of no reason, either in church scripture/teachings, the example of public figures who are mormon, or my own personal experience with mormons, to believe that their religion makes them any less bigoted. Indeed, because of a legacy of racial bias which was orthodoxy until 27 years ago and residual still today, I would say the opposite is much more likely.

[fishwax]

149. and one more thing about the mark of cain

Just because they have the 'mark of cane' does not mean they are actualy bad

actually, that is exactly what it did mean, according to official church doctrine. Doctrine which, incidentally, has never been refuted (but rather has been said to be no longer relevant).

[Cronus Protagonist]

78. OK - they're just plain old bigots

Is that better?


Educate a Freeper Today!
Buttons, Stickers and Fridge Magnets made in America for brainy people
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Old think

the Mormons have a fast-growing black population and some predict they will be 50% black in half a century.

[LostinVA]

50. They changed this about 20 years ago

Because of was no longer cool to preach that Blacks were sub-human and full of the Devil. However, this is still official Mormon doctrine, and I have witnessed much racism from Mormons... the worst of it is that they usually don't KNOW they are being racist.

[Realityhack]

81. no.

this is still official Mormon doctrine
no no it is not.

You can make a good argument that they are racist, bigoted, etc. But not based on shit you and a few extremist detractors who fail to make any diferentiation between the main church and extremist splinter groups pull out your asses.

[katamaran]

73. Gladys Knight is a Mormon

Converted, but a Mormon nonetheless.

[bertha katzenengel]

5. "see what you get for trying to do good" -- evil is random, baal

You think they were shot for trying to do good? We don't know the facts yet but I'll wager it had nothing to do w/ their mission or even their religion.

Murder is a shameful blight on the USA, and it's a tragedy whenever it happens and whoever the victim is.

Welcome to DU, BTW :hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. They were doing what they have been raised

to think of as good. They work hard to "be good." They belong to an organization that has a high standard for "goodness" and they were giving a year of their life to something other than themselves.

We can be snarky, of course, and deny them even that small consolation..that they were trying to be "good." Because after all, they were probably just mindless bots pushing the Bush agenda down people's throats. (sarcasm off)

Yes, I think they were doing good. Bless them. I hope there is something for them after this short life and I hope their parents find comfort in their goodness.

[FlaGranny]

14. One of my best friends many years ago

in high school was a Mormon girl. If most of them are like her, I like Mormons just fine. She never had a negative thing to say about anyone. Their history means nothing to me. What they are in the present is what counts.

[joefree1]

18. Mormon friend of the family tried to convince my folks I was a devil ...

worshiper and was going to hell. Mormons are secretive and conspiratorial. They are proselytizing by procreation (huge families).

And then there's the magic underwear.
http://nowscape.com/mormon/undrwrmo.htm

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Oh, yeah, I know ALL ABOUT the garments

I teach a lot of Mormon kids.

It is an amazing paradox for me. They are without a doubt the nicest, sweetest, smartest, hardest working, most loving kids I have. 30 years of them..hundreds. But wow, they have a very strange (to me, at least) theology and yeah, I think they are a cult. And I don't use that term loosely.

But then again, maybe some cult characteristics are functional in a society. Not that I want to be in that cult...but just saying. They are doing something right. But then again...CRRRREEEEEPY!

It has confused THE HELL OUT OF ME for years.

[InsultComicDog]

27. But in a sense

...don't a lot of religions act much like cults? Some of them just get better press than others...

[Realityhack]

83. When you brake it down...

how much diffrent are they from most other religions in terms of cult-ness and creepy-ness?

I supose on average they are a bit more 'devoted' than most religions.

I think you hit it with the something right statment... some of what they do is good... some is creepy... but I get creeped out by all religions.

[ohiosmith]

20. "They are proselytizing by procreation (huge families)."

The same shit that was said about Irish Catholics.

Shame on you.

[joefree1]

28. Same shit was said about Cathollics in general and Muslims too

Shame on all selfish people who feel they need to replicate, over and over, themselves and their dogma in this overcrowded polluted world.

[ohiosmith]

30. Do you have any children?

[joefree1]

35. Certainly not more then three children

Why would anyone think having more then three children is their right with all the suffering of overpopulation and so many children hoping to be adopted. In most cases it's for religious reasons.

How many children do you have. Do you feel it's your right to have more then two or three?

[ohiosmith]

39. It is my right to have as many children as I want and can provide for.

It is also my right to not have children. It is not my right to dictate to others my preferences.

How many children did you say you have?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. Some people "should" have no children

and some "should" (by virtue of ability) have ten.

My daugther, for example, lives to mother and she's good at it. She has healthy kids and has a great time raising them. I hope she has a few more.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. Overpopulation is being reconsidered

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/05/issue/feature_earth.asp


*************
snip
Take population growth. For 50 years, the demographers in charge of human population projections for the United Nations released hard numbers that substantiated environmentalists’ greatest fears about indefinite exponential population increase. For a while, those projections proved fairly accurate. However, in the 1990s, the U.N. started taking a closer look at fertility patterns, and in 2002, it adopted a new theory that shocked many demographers: human population is leveling off rapidly, even precipitously, in developed countries, with the rest of the world soon to follow. Most environmentalists still haven't got the word. Worldwide, birthrates are in free fall. Around one-third of countries now have birthrates below replacement level (2.1 children per woman) and sinking. Nowhere does the downward trend show signs of leveling off. Nations already in a birth dearth crisis include Japan, Italy, Spain, Germany, and Russia—whose population is now in absolute decline and is expected to be 30 percent lower by 2050. On every part of every continent and in every culture (even Mormon), birthrates are headed down. They reach replacement level and keep on dropping. It turns out that population decrease accelerates downward just as fiercely as population increase accelerated upward, for the same reason. Any variation from the 2.1 rate compounds over time.

That’s great news for environmentalists (or it will be when finally noticed), but they need to recognize what caused the turnaround. The world population growth rate actually peaked at 2 percent way back in 1968, the very year my old teacher Paul Ehrlich published The Population Bomb. The world’s women didn’t suddenly have fewer kids because of his book, though. They had fewer kids because they moved to town.
**************


Grannie talking now: Personally, I say if you are healthy, have enough money and enjoy raising children and do it well, have as many as you want. By the same token, if you aren't particularly inclined, you don't need to feel you must procreate to keep the whole experiement going.

[ohiosmith]

42. You go Grannie!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. If everyone did as fine a job with their kids

as the Mormon parents I personally know, I'd say we should all have huge families!

[joefree1]

38. Did you know ...

Factoids From Population Connection.
The U.S. Census Bureau reported that hunger is a daily concern for 13.8% of Americans
There will be 125 million births in the world this year. By the time this group is ready to start school, there will have been another 625 million births.
Every 20 minutes, the human population grows by about 3,000. At the same time another plant or animal becomes extinct (27,000 each year).
According to the U.N., if fertility were to stay constant at 1995-2000 levels, the world population would soar to 244 billion by 2150 and 134 trillion by 2300.
The population of the U.S. tripled during the 20th century, but the U.S. consumption of raw materials increased 17-fold.

http://www.populationconnection.org/

[TallahasseeGrannie]

43. See my post before this one

But I will just mention, in 33 classroom years, I never met a Mormon child who was hungry or even on reduced lunch. Those folks do a great job with their kids. I have a very hard time with their beliefs, but I will give them their due. They know how to raise good, healthy kids.

We need healthy, happy kids for our society to prosper. Otherwise we will be like old Europe and just fade away.

[Realityhack]

87. TallahasseeGrannie

Thank you for your reasoned comments on this thread. I have personal problems with many of the things the Mormons beleive in but like you I actualy know a lot of them and I see that their is good as well as creepy bad stuff there (much like any religion IMO). Anyway I find it nice to see someone else who can look at the mormons as shades of grey rather than the predjuduced all good all bad models so prevelent.

BTW You probobly know this already but Mormons actualy run their own food banks (not talking about food storage but the bishops sorhouses or whatever they call them) for their members so theoreticaly even if a mormon family falls on hard times they can remain self sufficent.

[fishwax]

109. They don't do a great job with their kids

I lived much of my life in areas with large mormon populations, both inside and outside of utah, and have been personally involved with the church and its people to a significant degree. I think it's cool that you had good experiences with mormon kids.

I assume that your experience was in Florida, and I think that might be the reason your experience has been so good. Of all the mormons that I have known, the only ones who meet your description were in places where the mormon community was not particularly strong, unlike Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, etc.

The church does do an admirably job of helping meet the physical needs of struggling members, etc. Response to emotional needs is, unfortunately, not as positive (particularly for young women).

Anyway, just my two cents. I'm not saying all mormon parents are horrible, of course, but i certainly wouldn't want anyone I cared about to face what many of my mormon friends faced in their teenage years. And, again, I think the geographic differences are important. (As most non-utah mormons will tell you, there's a big difference b/w, say, an oklahoma mormon and a utah mormon ;))

[Realityhack]

133. Its not that black and white

and you are quite correct about regional diffrences. But the do encorage a lot of admrable behavior such as family involvment with children, strong respect for adults, not hanging out with bad crouds, respect for the other sex (in terms of boys respecting women in SOME ways... ie not pushing for sex etc), even not swearing, and the anti-alcohol/smoking/drugs are fairly good things.

Women in the church are subservient but often fairly strong in other personal ways.

Not everyhting they do is good... but some is. Just like other religions.

The main problem people have with the mormons is the same thing that makes them good at certain aspects of things... that is that they are IMO more likely than many other religions to actual DO what they prech etc. Can make them quite creepy in some ways but also when they are told to do something that IS a good idea they do that too. I think people find that devotion scary. Also because the differ significantly from other churches thier rituals are often mis-understood despite not being all that diffrent from any other religions strange rituals.

IMO some of what they do is totaly bad... but some is also quite good. I would hesitate to paint any aspect of any large group with such a black and white brush.

[fishwax]

143. I didn't claim anything was black and white

:) I was responding to a post that said "those folks do a great job with their kids," which is why I worded the headline as I did. I certainly didn't claim that there are no mormons who are good parents or that mormons in general aren't good parents, etc., and I don't think I painted "any large group with such a black and white brush."

About your first paragraph, I agree that SOME of the values they attempt to instill can be fairly good things. But while telling kids to abstain from sex/drugs/alcohol may be fine, some of them are going to do those things, and failing to respond in a helpful and loving manner is a major flaw in the system, imo, and that's what I meant by the emotional support system not being as strong as the system of food houses. I've known many, many Mormon addicts in my life, who got little or no support for years (only denial or condemnation, but very rarely help). I didn't see a lot of teenage pregnancy among the mormons in my high school, but not because it didn't happen--because pregnant women were shipped off, as in days of yore, to have their child in shame and then give it up for adoption, whether they might want to or not. I'm not trying to say that that's how such things are always handled in mormon families/communities, but these are patterns (particularly the first) that I've seen repeated throughout my life, and I think the scriptural emphasis on purity, the mormon cultural emphasis on the appearance of purity, and (of course) the second-class/subservient status of women contribute to those problems. Of course, some mormon families don't fall into the traps I've seen, and I'm sure there are plenty of other good mormon parents as well, but I do think the system itself (while they certainly do some things that are good) creates some significant dysfunctions.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

140. Thanks for that perspective

I'm really interested in what the kids are "like" out in Utah. You are correct, while there is a large Mormon population in town and a healthy ward, it isn't Utah by any means.

I find the Mormons endlessly fascinating because in many ways, they are a big socialist experiment.

But as I've said before...creepy. To me, they are creepy and kind of like the Stepford people.

But then I have to add that the kids I know are genuinely happy, well-loved, well-adjusted, smart, funny..you name it.

Endlessly fascinating.

[fishwax]

146. I appreciate your perspective too

and I'm fascinated by mormons and mormon culture too :)

[eridani]

124. Everybody needs to emulate "old Europe" and Japan, Mormons too

We don't want too much of a single generation drop, but the world can't afford this many consumers.

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/010306EA.shtml

One question naturally arises when you hear that 67 million more people are on the way: Do we have enough to go around? Last year raised worries about "peak oil," the notion that the glass of crude may be half empty, bringing with it higher prices, increased jousting with countries like China, maybe even threats to the supremacy of the sprawled-out American suburb. Now get ready for peak water, and even peak food.

America is, on average, a damp nation - the lower 48 states see 4,200 billion gallons of rainfall every day. But averages deceive; water is in short supply in the Southwest, where growth is fastest and rivers are already over-tapped. Even back East, we use so much water that supplies can run short. The Ipswich River near Boston now "runs dry about every other year or so," according to Sandra Postel, director of the Global Water Policy Project. "Why? Heavy pumping of groundwater for irrigation of big green lawns." In drought years like 1999 or 2003, Maryland, Virginia and the District have begun to fight over the Potomac - on hot summer days combining to suck up 85 percent of the river's flow.

Just as gasoline shortfalls have led to new interest in hybrid cars, aggressive conservation measures could alleviate some of the water deficit - Boston already uses 31 percent less water now than it did in the 1980s. And in the West, where irrigation uses up 80 percent of water supplies, reducing subsidies that keep water prices artificially low would help. But Postel cautions that "water savings on farms will simply go to fill urban swimming pools" unless governments establish strict allocation policies designed to make sure that streams and wetlands get the water they need.

Talk of irrigation raises the question of food. To judge by simply looking at American waistlines, we have more than enough - and the fertile midsection of the country means we're in better shape than the rest of the world to keep growing our dinner. But overall food production around the world has begun to sputter; after fast growth in the decades following World War II, says Lester Brown of the Earth Policy Institute, the last 10 years have seen a steady erosion in the amount of grain grown per capita. And since wheat and rice and corn are all world markets, the need for imports elsewhere could drive up the cost of food here at home. The Chinese, in particular, are constantly converting farmland to factory sites (even as they learn to eat more meat), and they have plenty of American cash stored up to pay for any shortfall. But if they do so, the first casualties will be the world's really poor nations, already reeling from increases in the price of fuel.

[ieoeja]

63. Fact from reality.

(As opposed to a factoid which is, by definition, false.)


Hunger is a daily concern of 0% of Americans because of overpopulation. Those for whom hunger is a concern are suffering from our system of government, not because we as a nation are unable to produce enough food to feed everyone.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

141. Wow

completely changing topics here, but I have been misuing "factoid" evidently for years.

I just checked on dictionary.com and indeed, the first def. is a fact that is false but repeated so often people think it is true. I had no idea.

However, evidently there are a lot of folks like me because it also said there is a "problem usage" where a secondary meaning is the opposite.

I don't think I'll use it anymore.

[fishwax]

108. I've had exactly the opposite experience with mormon parents

(which is not to say i haven't known ANY good ones)

[Realityhack]

84. Now that you have backed down from your original statent...

and made this a general thing about anyone who has a large family instead of just one group that on average does...

Perhapse you should re-examine wither you have any un-reasonable bias towards them.

[arewenotdemo]

135. BINGO!

[mitchtv]

29. what they are now is one of the premier

anti gay cults. their homophobia is tangible

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. I have no doubt that is true

I am not defending them en masse, just commenting that aspects of their life and lifestyle are very successful.

[JetCityLiberal]

67. I guess we have different definitions of success

raising kids to be homophobic is not a success IMHO.

And over population is a major problem. (yes I read your links).

[Realityhack]

85. Did you read the post you replied to?

"aspects of their life and lifestyle are very successful."

reply

"raising kids to be homophobic is not a success IMHO."

Seems to me you made a massive assumption about which aspects the other poster was praising.

[LostinVA]

54. Their past and present are the same, unfortunately

Nothing has changed. Their attitudes toward women and gays are hair-raisingly medieval -- WAY beyond any Fundamentalist Protestants, or even the most extreme Catholics I've known. The official face is very clean cut and wholesome. THey aren't stupid.

[AnneD]

16. ITA....

I am not a Mormon and disagree with many of their articles of faith, but I grew up around them and as a result, have Mormon friends and have respect for many that I have met. Missionaries are generally young (19-22yo)men. It is a wonderful life experience for them and strengthens their faith.
I don't care what their beliefs were...these were 2 young kids that were shot, murdered in cold blood. It is neither the time or place for snarky remarks. This is America and we do have freedom of religion-a right that these 2 young men were were practicing. And it is also the faith of the DEM Senate Minority leader. The intolerance I see here on occasion at this BB makes it easy to understand why people of faith have been driven from the DEM's to the GOP. Try to keep the tent door open. Some of us with strong religious beliefs ARE DEM's because of our faith.

[baal]

21. Hey, The Repugnants are no better....read these posts

on the same story from free republic....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1550903/posts?page=169,20

republicans , particularly christian fundamentalists, HATE mormons.

Thats why Reid is a DEMOCRAT!

[eridani]

125. Fundies don't think Mormons or Catholics are really Christian

In Idaho a few years back there was an anti-gay initiative sponsored by the makers of the "homosexual agenda" video. They are also Mormon and Catholic haters, and in their screen credits section listed some of their anti-Mormon and anti-Catholic videos. Some very smart LGBT activists made a blow-up of the appropriate frame, and made sure that every Mormon bishop in Idaho had a copy. That was the end of the initative.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Well said

they are gentle, idealistic people with eternal positive attitude about life and its possibilities. God bless their unusual souls.

[mitchtv]

32. As a gay i should tolerate a mormon?

Sorry think again . they are our mortal enemy. They are full of HATE and wish to terminate my civil rights.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

46. Are you extrapolotating therefore

that the murder of these two young men was therefore excuseable? Or am I reading too much into your post. We've gotten a bit away from the OP and I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I'm assuming your answer would be no.

[LostinVA]

55. Mitch isn't saying that, and I agree with him

I'm gay and female, and although I respect you Granny, I respectfully disagree with you here. What you are asking is the same of asking an African-American to be tolerant of the KKK. Seriously, there is no difference. I agree that more people should emulate Mormons by making quality family time... but that is as far as they go. I don't want to use the deaths of two young men to rail against the church, but their basic tenets are, to me, borderline evil. It's all dressed up with wholesomeness and smiles, but what is taught is repressive and soaked in intolerance for ANYONE different. Moreso than any creed I've been exposed to, and I was raised OLd School Catholic, so that's saying a lot.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. I understand that

I think we got far afield from the OP. I was trying to bring out what I personally think is obvious...despite the fact that he (and you) have no use for these folks, you wouldn't wish them ill. Which you've just stated.

I heard you about their repressiveness and I wouldn't defend that at all. Hopefully someday they will realize they were wrong, like they evidently did with black folks.

I'm kind of laughing, finding myself in the position of defending Mormons, whom I find to be very odd people. But damn good at raising kids, which confuses and stretches me!

[AnneD]

65. I think the verse was

do unto others as you would have others do unto you...or something like that. I have found that reading the book of worship (in what ever faith) and using direct quotes are very helpful in emphasizing tolerance. All faiths have varying levels of adherence. I have evan known Mormons that were gay (and it was a difficult circumstance for them but they were tolerated and not cast out of their family). What impression would a simple card of condolence have on this family, whether the senders be gay or not. This is how you build in roads.

[wicket]

26. Amen

n/t

[anitar1]

60. I lived in Utah at one time and met many young people

who were respectful and kind. All communities have their problems , but I think the Mormons have fewer problems, than many non-Mormon communities.I have no desire to be a Mormon, am just saying that they seem to pay more attention to the young ones and teach them to be helpful to others.Name one religion that is perfect. I don't care what anyone's belief system is. It is their right to practice it , whether I agree with it or not.

[AgadorSparticus]

128. Neo cons are convinced they are doing good too.

People can be convinced they are doing good. It doesn't mean they are. I'm not sold on the concept of Mormonism and good yet.

But I never wish anyone harm and my condolences to their families.

[Miss Chybil]

15. I'm amazed at the people on this thread who find murder justified

based on one's religion. Hypocrites heal thyself.

[K-W]

41. Care to point out who on this thread did so? EOM

[LostinVA]

57. Not one person did that -- the very opposite, in fact

[Guaranteed]

92. I don't think they're saying it's justified- just slightly less bad.

Mormons sure are annoying!

Funny how a murder story always turns into a commentary on some demographic of people on the internet- as if that lends some kind of feeling to how horrible the murder was.

[Posteritatis]

103. "Slightly less bad"? Oh, that makes it so much better.

:puke:

[Miss Chybil]

111. Some people think it's slightly less bad to kill brown people, too.

Ah, humankind... how wonderful we are. Where would we all be without the "other" - all those people? I'm sure better off, but how will we ever know? It's always us, or them.

[fishwax]

113. where did anyone on this thread say such a thing?

:shrug:

[Miss Chybil]

144. The one that prompted my post has been edited. It wasn't blatant

anyway, but if you look at how a good part of this thread focuses on Mormons and Mormonism it is in essence a debate over whether they deserved it, or not. If the headline were said, "Two Black Men Killed," would people be talking about what black people do all day that could possibly, if horrifically, lead to their murder? If it said, "Two Men Killed on Bicycles," how long would this thread be? Instead it's become a debate over the validity of a religion and the value of the lives of its practioners.

Bigotry is so inciduous. Ask a Jewish person, if you don't believe me. I suppose since these were young, white boys their mothers will cry less at their loss than an Iraqi mother cries for hers? These kids are gone. May they rest in peace.

[fishwax]

145. I can understand that sentiment, but

debating the pros and cons of mormonism (a topic broached by the OP, not the antis) is not the same, in essense, as debating whether or not they deserved it. The OP said they were killed for trying to good. As another poster said, the good they do is debatable, but their deaths are tragic either way. (Of course, if the OP had not made such a statement in his OP, I'm sure there would still be a degree of debate about the pros and cons of mormonism, but that wording clearly sparked much of the discussion.)

Anyway, my feelings about the mormon church, based on solid experience, are not positive. Still, I wouldn't wish the death of a child on any parent, and it is tragic to see people cut down at such a young age. My heart definitely goes out to the family and friends of both young men. I see no conflict between (a) having a critical attitude towards the institution and (b) feeling empathy and sympathy for the victims and their families.

[Walt Starr]

24. Keep in mind, Mormons generally go on their mission right after they

graduate from high school.

These were basically kids being shot to death.

[Zhade]

31. "Do good"? What does that mean?

If you mean spreading the cult of Mormonism, I heartily disagree (I'm an ex-Mormon, I know of what I speak).

However, no one should be killed for annoying people with unproven mythical beliefs.

[Maat]

34. Exactly .. no one should be killed for being annoying.

Healing energy to their families!

[eridani]

126. We don't know why they were killed.

Looks pretty random from the OP link.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. I'll bet you could tell some stories!

the most interesting reading online is X Mormon stores, in my opinion.

[Zhade]

88. I was, thankfully, a member for only a brief time.

I escaped that madness quickly.

Check out http://www.exmormon.org/ for fascinating reading, especially about the swastikas in Mormon churches during WWII and the cult's use of 'porn therapy' to 'heal' queers like myself (I'm bisexual, which I found was oftimes more hated than being just plain ol' gay).

Joseph Smith was a known fraud in his own day. How this cult grew so fast just saddens me. It's not like its origin suffered the passage of thousands of years or anything - people knew he was bullshitting as he did it to their faces!

[Vidar]

33. I've had to physically threaten Mormons who kept visiting.

Murder is extreme, but what these "missionaries" do is wrong. It should be covered by trespassing, but apparently isn't. My tormentors came back 5 times.

[meganmonkey]

37. Wow - I find it works very well to point out that

I would rather learn spiritual wisdom from someone a little older than them. I say this after giving them kudos for their good work in the community (I work for a nonprofit and we have a group of "Elders" that come in weekly and volunteer their asses off).

Really, a 22 year reciting what someone told them to say is not enlightening, and they can't argue with that.

They almost never come by anymore, maybe once every couple years...

[pschoeb]

56. I find coming to the door in my tighty whities

usually solves all proselytizing events :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

59. LOL

[stanwyck]

62. My daughter

(22 yrs.) was visiting us and no one else was at home. The doorbell kept ringing. So, annoyed, she went to the door in only a towel. (she had been in the shower and whoever was at the door wouldn't stop).
She's a cutey and very curvy. I'm not sure if the little hussy's stunt took us OFF the Mormon proselytizing circuit or gave us new status as a "don't miss."

[AnneD]

69. I like to do the...

foreign language thing, a la Andy Kauffman's Latka (I can be mischievous). I think the rudest I ever got was during the Campus Crusade for Christ (I went to Baylor Baptist if you can believe). One too many people came up to ask me...'Have you found Jesus' while I was trying to enjoy a quiet breakfast that morning. Without missing a beat I said 'No, I haven't. Did you lose him again. Why don't you buy a leash.' OK, not the most gracious thing I ever did, but I do think it rude to jump all over people. I think it shows an immaturity and insecurity of faith.
Will I tell you my beliefs, yes...without hesitation. Will I debate you, yes...without a doubt. But I never spring it on you in such a manner. And when our discussion is over, I will still be your friend no matter your religion, colour, gender, or orientation. I will pick up the tab and generously tip the waitress or waiter and shake your hand. It is not enough to talk the talk---you have to walk the walk too. And being gracious goes a long way.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. I have not had that experience

I just tell them I have a strong belief system of my own, give them a drink of water, ask where they are from and send them on their way.

Nice kids. Sweaty. Strange underwear under white shirts.

[Ilsa]

52. My dad used to invite them in and try to convert them to mainstream

Christianity (this was before Mormonism was considered a denomination). He had one on the hook one time. I bet he got debriefed really hard by his partner that evening.

[Posteritatis]

105. I'll one-up that one...

One of my friends kept getting hassled by them, and she was too polite at the time to tell them to scram on a permanent basis.

Then one day, some Jehovah's Witnesses moved in to the apartment down the hall and brought their own proselytizing into it. The next time the Mormons came by, she thanked them for their consideration, but there's a couple a few doors down who sounded like they were interested...

This was about ten years ago. I'm sure the two pairs are still gabbling at one another..

[caligirl]

70. I here you, I had this problem with the mormons and the JW's finally

I went down and yelled at them and threatened to turn my garden hose on them if they came back. Given the repeated demands that they stop coming which they ignored I can empathize with the hostility, not the killing.

[sleipnir]

120. Trespassing in Florida...you can shoot them without pause.

If this took place in Florida, case closed probably. The killer would be acquitted.

Who knows the details of the true story. Maybe he's a mentally ill man who felt threatened when the two missionaries didn't leave his property? Who really knows??? I guess we will in due time, maybe.

[Realityhack]

134. not quite true

knocking on a door in florida is still legal unless they have a clear posting that you can't etc. Its not the same as sneaking in the back. You can't just shoot the encyclipida salesman and get away with it.

[Realityhack]

136. um... to make that more clear

I do not beleive walking up your front walk and knocking on the door is legaly trespassing.

[The Onyx Key]

64. Murder is unacceptable

The golden rule applies here. Of course it applies to them as well! Thier dogma is certainly OUT THERE, but if they are "smart, sweet, kind" etc. as an earlier poster put it and don't hold a gun to my head in an attempt to convert me, I'd have no problem with them. Heck, I'd probably welcome the argument!

[Hardrada]

68. They know there are risks. The goal of the missionaries

is primarily to prove their own faith and commitment and only secondarily to convert people. In this case the risks proved real. My point is that soldiers of any faith must realistically expect casualties though it is tragic for such devoted young people to lose their lives especially in such a cause.

[Rich Hunt]

147. Onward Christian Soldiers!!

I wonder what sort of person would be so familiar with that 'it comes with the territory'
philosophy that making such an argument is second nature to them. A lot of people
just spit out the first thing that comes to mind, and that says a lot about the
culture in which they were raised.

That's like saying if you're a firefighter or cop and you die in the line of duty, too bad, you should
have expected that.

Or if you're a whistleblower at work, and the criminal underground tries to bump you
off, you ought to keep quiet about it, it's part of 'the game', and 'don't you know
the rules', you know...

Or, while we're at it, if you work high up in a very tall building that already had one
terrorist attack, and you have the nerve to get up and go to work in that very
building every day and expect to be secure, well, what kind of world did you
think you were living in, clown boy?

etc. etc., it gets to a point where we can shrug off most premature deaths
and give ourselves permission not to care...doesn't it?

Ah, America - where you can never be 'strong enough'....or 'fit' enough.

[hogwyld]

71. Obviously, this is tragic...

But maybe the mormon cult should just stay in their own little corner, and leave people alone. I've been harrassed by these people as well as the JW's. If they would take no and leave, no problem, it's when they keep coming back, over and over, that irks me so.

[katamaran]

72. More info from a couple insiders...

...there's talk around the police dept that the men were shot because they'd just witnessed a shooting themselves and were trying to get away. That's the news floating around the newsroom where I am. The police are keeping pretty quiet because they are possibly investigating TWO crimes at once.

[Blue_Tires]

76. I live in Va Beach and know the area well

It's quite possible that could have happened--maybe they saw something they were not supposed to see....tragic regardless

[Charlie Brown]

74. This is undefendable

These two people were murdered in cold blood. The article says nothing about the two of them witnessing to the man who shot them or bringing it on themselves.

The DUers who are chiding and condemning the two murder victims, while giving a free pass to the criminal who murdered them, should be ashamed of themselves.

[brentspeak]

90. There are a few weirdos on this site

who seem to be from another planet. They're regarding the two victims here as "missionaries" instead of fellow human beings.

Public website, gotta expect some of the lunatic fringe to make their presence known.

[K-W]

91. Who is defending it?

Who gave a free pass to the murderers?

It seems some people are reading a different thread than I am.

[Charlie Brown]

95. from some of the previous posts:

"It's easy to understand this. The Mormon church has had a severely racist attitude for years. They don't even allow blacks into their church. They should park those bikes elsewhere and not venture forth in predominantly black areas."

"Missionaries are the worst force on this planet. They destroy cultures and rape them of their spiritual wealth. I think you are forgetting that missionaries have demanded conversions for aid."

"Murder is extreme, but what these "missionaries" do is wrong. It should be covered by trespassing, but apparently isn't."





It appears that being raised a Mormon does not win you many friends at DU, and that being murdered does not elicit much sympathy. Never mind the fact that Harry Reid is a Mormon, and that there are millions of them in this country (potential allies). Sometimes I'm ashamed to fraternize at this site, and threads like these are the reason why.

[Guaranteed]

97. Thank you. nt

[TankLV]

112. That one fact is what makes me pause in any total support of him.

I find that fact worrisome.

They HATE gays with a PASSION.

I am gay.

Why should I tolerate these jerks?

That said, it is sad that anybody should be killed.

[Charlie Brown]

119. Catholics, Orthodox Jews and Muslims are also disdainful of gays

You should tolerate them all because they are American citizens, and human beings who deserve respect and love in spite of denying it to others.

It is up to people like us to set an example of love and tolerance to counter their bad vibes. By loving our enemies, they will learn the errors of their ways.

[K-W]

130. You still havent shown me a defense.

"It's easy to understand this. The Mormon church has had a severely racist attitude for years. They don't even allow blacks into their church. They should park those bikes elsewhere and not venture forth in predominantly black areas."

This is a pretty bad post on several levels, I will grant you, but it does fall short of defending the actions. Understanding something and defending it are two different things. And to me this post doesnt seem to represent the feelings of other DUr's

"Missionaries are the worst force on this planet. They destroy cultures and rape them of their spiritual wealth. I think you are forgetting that missionaries have demanded conversions for aid."

Insensitive, perhaps. But certainly not a defense.

"Murder is extreme, but what these "missionaries" do is wrong. It should be covered by trespassing, but apparently isn't."

Insensitive, perhaps; and understatement, perhaps, but not in any way a defense.

It appears that being raised a Mormon does not win you many friends at DU,

It doesnt really matter how you are raised it seems, just whether you attempt to convert them.

and that being murdered does not elicit much sympathy.

At least not much from strangers on a political message board.

[Nikki Stone 1]

82. Do Mormon missionaries go to heaven if they are killed in religious work?

I was told that Catholic missionaries are automatically canonized if they get martyred in the line of duty. (My source may be wrong on that).

[Realityhack]

148. No.

interestingly their religion is fairly consistant on things like that. No magic outs. They do go to heven if they die before the age of 8 when they are considered responsible for their actions.

However its likely that people out doing that would be obeying enough rules to go to heven so whatever.

Too bad heven doesn't exist... it sounds realy nice.

[AnneD]

150. I don't think they have done that since the middle ages...

First you are beatified, then some miracles have to occur when people pray for you to intercede (these intercessions have to be documented), THEN after a review you are canonized (made a saint)if I remember correctly. I think dieing while preforming missionary work just makes you a martyred for the faith. Each faith is slightly different in in the wat they bestow honours.

[f-bush]

93. Aren't most Mormen's.....

hard core right winger's?

[grateful581]

98. Yep, Utah's number 1 rating for bush shows that

I live in utah. These mormons who vote republican can't give a good reason why they vote republican, they just do. It's pathetic because the republican base is a bunch of religious bigots that hate the mormon religion.

[mitchtv]

99. yes

[Posteritatis]

107. Most != all

Take care that your brush isn't too broad. The right isn't the only side of the spectrum which has had a tendency towards tarring entire demographics; it ain't cool at all.

Most Albertans vote Conservative, but that doesn't make it any less bad if a couple of them got murdered one day.

[grateful581]

96. My thoughts and prayers are with Morgan Young's Family

Rest in peace Morgan Young of Bountiful, Utah
Get well soon Joshua Heidbrink of Greely, Colorado

[CreekDog]

110. I went to Brigham Young and...

I love Utah in lots of ways, and Mormons do an admirable job living under what I consider the human tyranny of their church, and at the same time, trying to make their state a great place and follow the church's dictums.

The missionaries are usually young men just old enough to be out of high school. Their training consists of a couple to a few months training in presentation of the Discussions (designed to lead to conversion to the Mormon faith). They have longer training, a matter of weeks longer, if they are training to present the Discussions in a foreign language that they must learn.

It's a hard life and my perspective on it now is that it's a Mormon boot camp of sorts. Wittingly or not, the pairing, lack of privacy, uprooting and grueling work seems to accomplish a lot of bonding, not only with missionary partners, but with Father Church (not mother church --this is Mormonism thank you very much).

And I can also say from experience that the Discussions' first point is to undermine faith in the Bible, plain and simple and later to replace it with faith in the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church. This is what missionaries do and some of them do it well.

But even then, I just thought they were kids. One of my roommates was yelled at by his bishop for not tithing enough --while he was a freshmen student(non-working) at BYU.

And the spiritual side of it is that if they do this well enough, they get to live with their "Father in Heaven", the celestial kingdom. Knowing their doctrine however, I don't think even the best Mormon could get in. Which is why I never converted basically.

For women, their fate is not so much under their control, for if they are married (spiritually sealed) to a man, they must hope that not only is he devout, but that he calls their spirit name in the hereafter (a name only he knows) and takes her with him. I doubt any physical torture is worse than the spiritual bondage this places on a woman, who is not only at the man's physical mercy, but at his spiritual mercy as well.



note: my avatar is Harry Reid, Democratic Leader in the Senate and good man and Mormon. :)

[Realityhack]

137. Whah?!?

"And I can also say from experience that the Discussions' first point is to undermine faith in the Bible, plain and simple and later to replace it with faith in the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church. This is what missionaries do and some of them do it well."

The mormons belive in and study the bible constantly... they suplement it and question a handful of minor translation errors but thats it. You will see it sited in church quite often.

I don't want to argue with your personal experience but it is not likely to be general considering their belifes.

[arewenotdemo]

139. Pretty sure the Mormon Church can take credit for killing

the ERA.

[Momgonepostal]

152. I went to BYU, too, but I sure got out of it different things than you did

I also served a mission and was certainly never told, nor did I ever decide on my own that the bible must be undermined. That is in fact the total opposite of what we were really taught, that we should build in common ground, like a common belief in the bible and the teachings of Jesus (if applicable, obvious, not everyone believes in these things).

I have never heard anyone call the church "the father church."

You are a bit off on your comments about women, too. You make it sound as if the wife is at the complete mercy of the husband...not true. Do you think we all live in fear that our husbands won't invite us to heaven? That doesn't even make sence.

[mitchum]

102. Do they get their own planets or galaxies or whatever now?

[CreekDog]

114. "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become."

This is so widely believed that there's got to be doctrine to go with it. But you've got to join to really find out. But I prefer a church that is willing to share all its doctrine up front.

[CreekDog]

115. 1 reason for voting Republican

For the LDS that is...

Ezra Taft Benson (former Church president and prophet) said that he didn't think one could live the gospel and in good conscience be a liberal Democrat. My roommates at BYU used to quote this to me all the time. Jokingly, I think, my heathen state encompassing not only spiritual matters (Lutheran), but political matters as well (Democrat).

Mind you, he thought the Deseret News was too liberal (according to Steve Benson), so all of the terms in my first sentence are used with a grain of salt.

I do have BYU and Utah to thank for my Democratic beliefs though. I wasn't a Democrat when I got there, but I was before I left!

[CreekDog]

116. Inter-racial marriage

Also several roommates at BYU told me that inter-racial marriage was frowned on --one even suggested on medical grounds. He was pre-med. I don't know, but I think this thinking was a cultural artifact from a less tolerant (racist) time and not present doctrine.

Of course, at BYU, we were required to see "Guess Whose Coming To Dinner" as part of our American Heritage history course. Perhaps we were required to see it because it was so necessary that a lot of us reconsider our opinions.

I think this also had something to do with it:

Book of Mormon says, "and many generations shall not pass away among them,
save they shall be a white and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6; 1979 ed.).

"white and delightsome" now reads "fair and delightsome".

This is hard stuff to read.

[grateful581]

117. Thats a horrible reason to vote republican

thats my point. can't they think for themselves? no one tells me how to vote.

[CreekDog]

118. I think many Mormons do think for themselves

...and vote for the party they prefer. But when you add up all the stuff one has to do to get to the highest place after this life, are you really going to let voting get in the way of it? I know, I know, not official doctrine, but it came from a pretty high place.

That's the danger of making politics an article of faith. You mix the earthly with the heavenly and true believers get confused. One wouldn't want their faith to depend on the rightness of the Republican party or the Republican-ness of God (sic). That leads to doubt based on erroneous elevation of the Republicans and humiliation of God.

[Realityhack]

138. well to their credit

unlike many fundementalist chruches it is church policy NOT to recomend a particular candidate from the alter.

All they say is to analize it and choose the candiate that you think is the right moral choice. wither you chose say fair treatment of the less fortuate or anti-abortion (dem/repug) is up to you.

They do generaly vote concervatively but I wouln't say it is church policy. Just a tendancy based on their rather conservative belifes.

[AnneD]

151. Baylor University (Baptist)

almost seceded in making me an atheist (was agnostic for a while).

[Momgonepostal]

153. He may have said something like that before becoming pres....

of the church, but never in his capacity as a prophet. I remember people saying things like, "watch out, now that Benson is prophet he'll start excommunicating people for voting democratic, or for drinking a Pepsi" but of course, things like that never happened. It was a proof to me it is NOT the church's agenda to tell people what party to join, the fact that Benson was prophet for years, and despite his strong personal feelings really never got very political during General Conference.

I think Utah, like much of the rest of the Intermountain West, would be conservative anyway, even if the church didn't exist.

I was a Democrat even when I first got to BYU, and an even stronger one when I left with my degree. :-)

[Rich Hunt]

127. good Lord...

These two guys are shot, and all people can talk about is how rotten Mormons are.

One of my best friends is a Mormon. She is one of the most idealistic people I've ever known.
Through her, I met a number of people who went on missions. They all have
to do it. They were all nice and don't deserve the contempt people
heap upon them.

Shame on you. Have some respect for the families of these men.

[Divine Discontent]

129. my condolences for your loss

although I do not share the beliefs they do, as I am a born again Christian, I find it ABHORRENT anyone could hurt 2 people who are only trying to speak to people about their beliefs, regardless of how wacky or blind in actuality they're beliefs may be, because people may feel the same about mine, and for that - I decry their murders as a Christian missionary myself, with great sadness, these men were human, and did not deserve this heinous act, they, for all we know, we're always out doing good things for others regardless if they appeared as mind controlled Mormons, or not.

May God be with them and their families. Sorry Baal.

[CreekDog]

131. The murder is horrible

I really couldn't add anything to that.

But the topic of Mormons, their church and their beliefs did come up and I wanted to participate.

I hope I didn't say anything offensive and I don't think Mormons are bad --in fact, their theology often means they are better people than those in other groups. But I think their church does not treat its membership properly. I think that is a valid point to make considering that this thread became focused on Mormons in general.

I don't appreciate the messages that villify Mormons and stereotype them. Civil disagreement is the only thing that allows democracies to survive.