Clinton greeted by anti-war protesters AGAIN at another meeting

[IChing]

Dember 6, 2005, 4:19 PM EST

SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was greeted Tuesday by anti-war protesters and a second Democratic challenger to her bid for re-election.
The former first lady arrived in Saratoga Springs for a local Democratic Party fundraiser, while outside more than a dozen Iraq war protesters waved signs and called on her to support an immediate withdrawal of troops.

"I'm disappointed she's not that far apart from the current administration," said Barbara Murphy of Clifton Park, a retired state worker.

Murphy, who said she voted for Clinton in 2000, but won't do so next year unless the senator comes out for bringing the troops home, was carrying a sign that read, "How many more? Stop the war."

Also protesting was Pete Looker, a chimney sweep from Saratoga Springs who was dressed as Santa Claus.

"I think she needs to join us and try peace," Looker said. "I think there's hope for her, then we won't have to put any more coal in her stocking." >>>>snip
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--clinton-war1206dec06,0,5025798.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

[natrat]

1. wtf is her problem

[pinniped]

3. She had a cup of Joementum.

.

[Township75]

58. LOL! Good one!

:)

[brainshrub]

102. LOL! Good post!

I hope she drowns in Joementum.

[VegasWolf]

2. She is ignoring her base at her own peril. nt

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merwin]

4. I love it how we're spending our time trying to get Bush out of office and

not trying to get rid of moderate democrats who will probably be replaced with moderate republicans because we've done such a great job smearing the last democrat that nobody will want to vote for another.

I just love it...

[donheld]

5. And then we wonder why people don't vote

:crazy:

[VegasWolf]

6. So we should vote for a war hawk just because she has a D after

her name. No thanks!

:bounce:

[merwin]

11. I'm not saying you should vote for her. Just don't spend your time

protesting against her when there's bigger fish to fry... like EVERY republican in congress and the white house.

[VegasWolf]

14. The problem is she has ambitions and wants to be the Democratic

Nominee for President. I don't want to wake up after NH and Iowa and find out she is the nominee. Therefore, I do speak up.

[merwin]

21. I think she'd be LESS trouble as president. It's the congress that pushes

legislation through, not the president. The president is in charge of diplomacy. It just so happens that our current congress and white house are one body, so that distinction isn't very clear.

[VegasWolf]

24. Any war hawk will not have the support of a bunch of us. If 10% of

her base goes to 3rd Party, then we will still have a moderate Republican War Hawk for President and Hillary's presidency will simply be academic. And the war protesters will have sent a strong message.

:bounce:

[mitchtv]

41. I have signed the pledge

No support for pro war dems. I think Hil wil get the message

[jackbourassa]

44. merwin that's total bullshit

The President isn't some glorified diplomat. S/He's the PRESIDENT!!!!!!! S/He controls the agenda.

You've been drinking too much Clinton kool aid. Bill Clinton may have been nothing more than a glorified diplomat, but he is not the role model I choose when I think of great Presidents.

[rucky]

113. Sen. Clinton's constituents deserve to be heard.

this is VERY productive protesting. there's actually a chance of having her change her stance because of it.

[jackbourassa]

43. Exactly Vegas

I would never vote for Hillary or any other Democrat who supported the war. Either in NY or for the Presidency.

What's the point of working so hard for a candidate if they end up doing the same thing as the guy we try to replace?

Want to know my biggest fear for 2008?

My biggest fear is that Hillary gets the nod and the GOP candidate comes out in favor of bringing home the troops.

Then what?

We have to support the pro-war candidate because she has a (D) beside her name?

What about a little thing called convictions? I meant it when I said I strongly opposed the war, and I mean it now.

You can't be a hypocrite and support a candidate who supports something you strongly oppose just because they happen to be a Democrat.

Either Pirro or Golisano would be an improvement over Hillary. It would send a message to all wayward Democrats...

"Dance with the ones who brought ya..." or die.

[IChing]

7. I just reported the news

I want her as a Senator in our corner, but she needs to
listen, and she is good at that, so hopefully she will abridge her position

[VegasWolf]

8. That is why a bunch of us are pushing her. If she doesn't it is 3rd

party time. We want someone who will stand up and demand an end to this war.

:bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Ted Kennedy?? Barbara Boxer??

[VegasWolf]

13. Like I said, 3rd party if no decent Dem is available. Pelosi for Prez! nt

[natrat]

15. we want someone to call these criminals what they are-criminals

not some fucking bootlicking thug lite war hawk

[rodeodance]

99. I hear what you say and agree with you.

[librechik]

101. look, we have to talk about this, especially the painful stuff

let's not walk off to the voting booth not knowing WTF is happening anymore. We need to find and engage our candidate, not have one dropped on us like a 500 lb safe. Again.

DU is the best place to do that--we are all friends and we can tell each other what we REALLY feel here, not hide the uncomfortable truths, right? But peaceful protests are an appropriate response too.

We haven't moved up to smearing yet. Nobody is lying about her record or public statements, we are asking her to reconsider them. Hillary needs to hear us, that's all. Since she lives in the bubble, protests are a legitimate way to do it. Republicans ought to be doing it to their leaders too. It's the American Way, have you forgotten?We haven't done it in a long while, it will shock you. But it is REAL.

[orpupilofnature57]

9. I'm from Ballston Spa 4 miles from Saratoga, which has become a den of

Shrubites, to spite a mayoral victory transient pukers have been infiltrating for the last decade, In other words it's meant to have the same effect as Saddam trial, a zit and nothing more.You never hear about Republicans protested about anything in Toga, they Love to accuse even if it's their crime.

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. you know, in the back of my mind

I'm wondering if some of these protests, if they continue, aren't being staged by Republicans trying to discourage her from running.

Just a thought.

[natrat]

16. please,,,they want her to run,,,,she will be rolled over

i think she's just another soldier in the republican machine

[RazzleDazzle]

119. You bet they want her to run -- they're the only ones talking 'bout it

That's how much they want her to run.

[VegasWolf]

17. Maybe, but I think some DLCers way underestimate the extent of

anti-war fervor among the Democrats.

:bounce:

[EFerrari]

18. Of course they do. It goes against their economic interests.

The Dem base is sending a very clear message to Hilary. She is a very smart person. Maybe she will get it.


/no typing. just forget it.

[VegasWolf]

20. I hope so! I am getting sick of this pandering!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

26. I hope she has better advisors than Kerry did.

Sometimes I think all the handlers should just go fishing.
:)

[mitchtv]

104. Question, When Bill advises her to support anti gay initiatives

like he did to Kerry, will she follow?

[EFerrari]

110. As far as I can tell, she will and she shouldn't.

She's such a smart person. It's mind boggling that she buys into this cr@p.

[RazzleDazzle]

120. Of course. Look at her on the flag-burning issue.

Shameful!

[MrBenchley]

54. Well, of the two protestors named out of the 13 on hand

one is up to her eyebrows in a GOP attack on NY State Senate Democratic Leader Tom Manton and theother is a fuckwit from the Green party, which is little more than a GOP dirty trick itself (see my Pete Looker post below)....

By the way, did you notice that Hillary was in town for a Democratic party fundraiser? "Once a Goldwater girl, always..."</sarcasm>

[MisterP]

71. in the front of my mind, anti-war-protester-bashers are staged by the GOP

[Dogmudgeon]

19. I'm not too upset about this

I'm not particularly happy with this, either, but it's classic Clintonian hardball. The Right will suffer far more than the Left will. And it's also possible that Hillary is "running interference" for whoever the Democratic front-runner will be.

The Hillary- and Kumbayah-haters will get a massive case of the headspins. Meanwhile, the law won't survive its run through the Senate, let alone the House. And if the GOP puts up a more restrictive law to try and tar Hillary as an America-hater, they themselves will have to bear the onus of opposing a Flag (Anti-) Burning law and then getting thier own law bounced.

Hillary was probably put wise to an impending Flag Fetishization law in NY by one of her fans in the GOP. Not really a big loss for US, but a major bellyache for THEM. (You know how those bellyaches work. They start as bellyaches, progress to cramps, and then a massive discharge of liquefied shit occurrs, often via Hannity or O'Reilly.)

It's not quite half a loaf. Maybe 2/3rds of a loaf. While you're gnashing your own teeth, enjoy the Right's festering abcesses. It's not heaven, but it does show that The Tide Is Turning. Finally!

--p!

[VegasWolf]

22. I think you missed your post by a bunch of threads. This is about anti-war

protesters.

:bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

25. Tis is about holding Dem's Accountable

[VegasWolf]

27. Huh? nt

[orpupilofnature57]

29. nt

[VegasWolf]

31. Brilliant explanation, brilliant! He is talking about flags and you

mumble something incomprehensible.

:bounce:

[Dogmudgeon]

42. Hmm ... you may be right

--p!

[bluestateguy]

23. I don't mind her being hassled a little bit by these people

She needs to hear them a little bit, and be reminded that the base of her party turned against this war a long time ago. And it's time for her to follow them. She makes a big error in thinking she has the nomination sewed up. For that matter, she errs in thinking that independents still support this war. They don't either.

[VegasWolf]

28. Yes, and what does she do but propose Repuke policies. nt

:bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

30. : whifff whiff

[VegasWolf]

32. Your oratory skills are astounding! Any other one word witicisms or

other ad hominiem attacks?

:bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

33. Chill on the perspicacious skies shit, nader

How's that???

[VegasWolf]

34. Hah! Equally silly and juvenile! are you 12 years old yet?

:bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

36. As silly as getting turncoats on DU, or is it a cry for attention?

[VegasWolf]

37. Ad hominem attacks are juvenile. Do you have any constructive

comments that would recommend the war hawk Hillary or are you simply the fruit left at the bottom of the punch bowl of Hillary defenders. On the most likely probability that you have absolutely NOTHING to advance the conservation in an adult manner. Buh Bye!

[orpupilofnature57]

38. " WAR HAWK"

[MrBenchley]

55. Says the guy calling another DUer a fruit....

"you have absolutely NOTHING to advance the conservation in an adult manner"
wow...that IS rich.

[orpupilofnature57]

78. My fault, but Thanks

I'm a sucker for abuse

[VegasWolf]

86. LOL. The one word ":whif:whif:" posts don't help your cause! nt

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Megahurtz]

89. Lol! VegasWolf, Lol!!!

:7 I've never had to see you so fervently defend yourself on DU!
What spunk! And what a crackup!!!:rofl:
Good Job!:toast:

[VegasWolf]

90. Thanks! People dying in Iraq daily is a strong motivator!

Appreciate the support!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[orpupilofnature57]

94. Ya, it is

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

35. good-too bad this wasn't happening in '04

then the DLC would have had a hard time saddling us with its pro-war DINO of choice at the time

[Clara T]

39. Whilst the talk is about

strategizing and political fortunes people are dying by the dozens daily in Iraq.

C'mon everybody this isn't about who to support or not support it is immoral for anyone to take even a slightly-maybe equivocating position on this international crime.

Hillary knew from the start that the war was illegal and immoral. She's on the inside. The only ethical position here is Stop The War and End the Occupation.

It's about Oil remember? It's about establishing dominance in the Middle East. It's about controlling the four great rivers in Iraq.

This holiday season think about the children of Iraq.

[VegasWolf]

40. One would think!

:toast:

[MrSlayer]

45. A chimney sweep?

Like Chim chiminy chim chim charoo?

I realize this is off topic but I did a double take on the chimney sweep. I had no idea the still existed or went by that moniker.

[Emillereid]

46. Once a Goldwater girl, always a Goldwater girl it seems!

[MrBenchley]

57. Yeah, those "Goldwater girls" often raise money for Democrats

[Emillereid]

84. I've given money to that goldwater girl -- but NO MORE!

Not until she turn's into a real democrat!

[BenDavid]

47. Just listen to most of ya...

Goodness you sound like rabid dogs that are going for the jugular of Hillary. Senator Clinton is on record:"The time has come for the administration to stop serving up platitudes and present a plan for finishing this war with success and honor. I reject a rigid time-table that the terrorists can exploit, and I reject an open time- table that has no ending attached to it. Instead, I think we need a plan for winning and concluding this war, and the president can begin by taking responsibilities for the false assurances, faulty evidence and mismanagement of this war."

Damn, I can live with what you said. Remember, you want our soldiers out of Iraq as well as i do, but when they leave let's make them feel as though they accomplished something and not amke them feel as though the Dems were for cutting and running.. Leave the men and women with some honor...... COME ON FOLKS!

[xchrom]

51. they died for a LIE.

where's the honour in that?

i simply want them to live.

[Solly Mack]

56. It's not the honor of the troops at stake

it wasn't the troops who lied themselves into a war

it was the government that did that - all that bullshit talk about honor for the troops is pure cover - what they really mean is honor for the government.

My soldier husband has honor and no lie by the government can take that away....but I can't help the government regain it's honor. And I won't. The government lied us into war - there is no honor to be found in that.

[info being]

70. Exactly

The troop's honor has to do with going there and doing what they were told. If the Commander in Chief let them down with lies and poor strategy, it has nothing to do with their effort.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. What kind of crap is that??? Do you, or do you not, recall that our....

...troops were committed to an invasion of another sovereign nation based on a pack of lies?

WE SHOULDN'T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

What the heck is it that you, and others on this board, don't understand about that?? What the hell has ANYONE accomplished in Iraq under the circumstances??

How many more Americans and Iraqis have to die as a result of the lies perpetrated by the NeoCon Junta to satisfy another pack of lies about what we "accomplished" in Iraq??

[DemonFighterLives]

62. There is no honor in destroying the cradle of civilization

and many of the innocent people there. There is nothing good about it.

[VegasWolf]

66. Finish this war with success huh? Exactly how? and how many more

deaths?

:puke:

[orpupilofnature57]

81. She deserves better, I agree. How many times has she been faced...

compared to Shrub.Thats why I attack her detractors, She is Democrat who's only possible flaw ,as far as a political figure is she might be over informed.

[6000eliot]

48. Dog her at every turn

We have to let the leadership know that we will NOT support a pro war candidate in 2008.

[Hardrada]

49. Excellent work once more!

But how can she acknowledge all the blood on her hands? Or will she be like Robert McNamara and wait until she is an octogenarian before she admits any guilt.

[Andromeda]

50. That was a nice turnout...

A dozen or so protesters. :)

[MrBenchley]

59. Wonder how many were at the Democratic fundraiser? Bet more than 13 folks

[MrBenchley]

52. Big fucking surprise--Pete Looker isn't a Democrat...

http://www.septemberquestion.org/www.gpomc.org/2002/2002_08_14hawkins.shtml

And Barbara Murphy is right in the middle of an attack on NY Democratic Senate leader Tom Manton....

http://www.politicsny.com/archives/archives/scoop/6-11-02-scoop.shtml

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. Based on your comment, I thought Looker was going to be a Repub....

...imagine my surprise to learn that Looker is a mamber of the Green Party, another political party ON THE LEFT.

And what exactly does your link have to do with any alleged attack by Murphy on Manton?

[MrBenchley]

63. The Greens are basically a GOP dirty trick

and they can go fuck themselves.

And in order to find out what Murphy has to do with the attack on Matnton, you have to click on the link and read what's there.....

[PunkPop]

65. You mean Ralph Nader?

The Greens are nothing of the sort. The Greens are an established political party in Europe and a fledgling one here.

[MrBenchley]

67. I mean the Greens....

They're not jackshit here....

[PunkPop]

68. They're not a GOP dirty trick either

except in your paranoid reality.

[...of J.Temperance]

74. The GOP give the Green Party and Nader money...here's a link

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=c/a/2004/07/09/MNGQQ7J31K1.DTL

Explain that then? Deep-pocketed Repuke donors lining up to give Nader money in California in July 2004, because they were desperate for him to run and try and take up to 4% of the vote off DEMOCRATIC candidate Kerry.

Nader and the Greens are GOP enablers. They are NOTHING like Herr Fischer's Grune Party in Germany...the German Green's work to KEEP the German Right-Wing OUT, and they know that the Greens will never be able to win to form a government by themselves, so they join forces with the German version of the Democratic Party, the SDP and form a coalition.

This is something Nader's Greens would never do. Nader hates the Democratic Party and he's frustrated that he's never going to win ANYTHING, so he joins forces and takes filthy lucre from the GOP in order to try and fuck things up for us.

Nader's a hypocrite, he rails about big corporations...check Nader's stock portfolio listing sometime.

Nader's also obviously batshit crazy...even up to a few months ago, this stupid motherfucker was saying:

"There's no difference between the two parties...there's no difference between Kerry and Bush"...after ALL the Junior has DONE since 2001 and this fucking mouthbreather is STILL screeching this line.

Remember when he said "There's no difference between Gore and Bush"...yeah, SURE Ralphie...and the stupid pigshit STILL believes his own crap.

Fuck off Nader.

On Edit: Fixed link.

[PunkPop]

96. I don't need a link thanks anyway.

I'm well aware of Nader's shenanigans. That's why I specifically distinguished between him and the Greens in my first post.

I believe David Cobb was the Green's candidate in 2004. And I believe that he encouraged voters in swing states to vote Kerry in order to beat Bush.

Your vitriol for Nader is understandable but not really relevant to the point I'm trying to make - no matter how misguided you think they are, the Green's are not a GOP dirty trick.

[mitchtv]

105. totally owned subsidiary

They stabbed us in the back in CA , too

[MrBenchley]

109. And you'll notice in this thread

the "honest" "3rd party!" cries....

[radio4progressives]

69. The Green Party is not a GOP "dirty trick" - you are way out of line Sir!

it's something that Ann Coulter et al would do - just make up shit and put it out there like it was fact..

tsk, tsk, tsk.

[MrBenchley]

72. Bullshit.

"it's something that Ann Coulter et al would do"
You mean like attack Hillary Clinton? Yeah, that IS the sort of shit annthrax pulls.

[...of J.Temperance]

73. So why do Republicans give money to Nader and the Greens then?

Why did the Republicans have a fundraiser for Nader in California in 2004? They probably gave him money in 2000 as well.

Nader's a hypocrite and he's also a damn nuisance.

[MrBenchley]

75. Because they're struck by the ineffable purity of the Green position (ha)

And of course, it's just a coincidence that the only Republican running for Senate in New York is a four-star disaster.....

[...of J.Temperance]

76. Yes the Greens are SO pure...NOT...Pirro's got the anti-Midas Touch

In post # 89 I've posted a link to the GOP giving Nader and the Greens money in July 2004.

No doubt the Nader supporters WILL have one of their excuses to explain WHY Nader and the Greens have been taking funding from the GOP.

[MrBenchley]

79. The only thing that could possibly save Pirro

is a whole shitload of dirty tricks...and surprise! Up pops the Green party. Just by coincidence, of course (snicker)...

[...of J.Temperance]

83. A Green Party candidate is also going to challenge Senator Feinstein

But like you said, this is just another coincidence.

[MrBenchley]

85. Amazing how those coincidences mount up, no?

[...of J.Temperance]

93. Yes, absolutely amazing! n/t

[Javaman]

64. She has sipped the kool-ade...

Not a full on gulp but just a sip. Damn that's destructive stuff.

Now we have either a DINO or a repuke-light.

[slater71]

77. Is it possible that..

The protesters are really freepers ?

[MrBenchley]

80. It sure seems possible...

check out the Pete Looker post up above, adn you'll find at least one of them is mixed up in an attack on anotehr New York Democrat.

[orpupilofnature57]

82. Right up Kkkarl's alley!

[VegasWolf]

87. Nah! That's a tired old line. Cindy Sheehan has inflamed an anti-war

protest that can neither be stifled nor slowed.

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[burythehatchet]

103. If I were there, I would protest her as well. nt

[VegasWolf]

88. Cindy Sheehan for Nobel Peace Prize! nt

[jsamuel]

91. It's a full-time job defending Hillary

You have to post over and over and over and over and over agian...

[orpupilofnature57]

92. It's a pleasure to defend Hillary, as it is her Husband,WE owe them

Oh ya, and fuck the Green party idiot's and the distraction of Perfection, Idiots..

[IndianaGreen]

95. Thank you Big Dog for Plan Colombia, DOMA, Balkan war,

bombing of aspiring factory in Sudan, killing camels in Afghanistan, bungling the investigation of the WTC bombing, keeping the Cuban embargo, keeping SOA open, etc.

Oh yes, I forgot, Big Dog's crowning achievement: Don't ask, don't tell!

[orpupilofnature57]

114. NO DEFICIT! a THRIVING ECONOMY!a DIALOG WITH N.K.

Whilst being Dogged by the biggest band of misanthropes in history! He didn't try to bring Democracy to China, NA he was just getting Head at our expense, Right?

[John Q. Citizen]

108. I've noticed there are about 5 folks out of the 70,000 plus

registered users who feel it is their mission (or maybe their job?) to try to shove Hillery down everyone else throat. Next they will be pushing Zell Miller for her running mate.

And don't you dare critisize Zell. He has a "D" after his name after all.....

[orpupilofnature57]

115. Being a supporter isn't shoving anything down anyones throat, and

I believe your numbers are wrong.

[John Q. Citizen]

121. I didn't say anything about supporters, I'm talking about the

Hillery police who apparently equate critizising her about anything as somehow being disloyal to the Democratic Party.

[rodeodance]

97. I think she is coming around somewhat.

......At an earlier stop in Schenectady, the New York Democrat continued to defend her position on the war. She said it was wrong to set a firm timetable for the withdrawal of troops but also said America could not have an open-ended commitment to keeping U.S soldiers in Iraq.

Anti-war demonstrators have vowed to take their message to Clinton events until she comes out against the war and for a troop withdrawal.

The war protesters were planning to be at a fundraiser for the senator's re-election campaign Tuesday night in New York City that was to be headlined by former President Bill Clinton.

In New York City on Tuesday, a second anti-war candidate announced his candidacy for the Democratic Party's Senate nomination. Union activist Jonathan Tasini said Clinton's 2002 vote to authorize the war in Iraq proves she is out of step with New Yorkers........

[rodeodance]

98. nominated

[The_Casual_Observer]

100. Hillary seems to have sold out completely

Afraid to take a stand on anything but video game violence. Apparently she is taking council exclusively from strategists.

[Peace Patriot]

106. Hillary WILL be the candidate in '08. Get used to it. There is NEVER BE

an antiwar candidate permitted to win the Dem nomination. We lost two in the 1960s--JFK, who had tried to stop the Vietnam war escalation, and RFK, who was running a passionate and highly successful antiwar in 1968--both by assassination. Also, MLK, who had just come out publicly against the war. Then, in 2002, Paul Wellstone's plane fell out of the air for no good reason, just as he was gearing up to oppose the war and Bush. Wellstone was our best candidate for 2004, by far--committed to stopping the war. And, finally, when Dean came out against the war, his campaign was done in by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

It WILL NOT BE PERMITTED. There is too much money in war. Our whole economy is based on it, never moreso than now. And the powers that want more death and destruction and torture and invasion in the Middle East are overwhelming in this country, and WILL OVERRIDE a huge American majority against the war. They WILL NOT PERMIT us to have a choice. We will have to vote for war with a kinder social liberal face, or war without it.

HIllary undoubtedly knows this, and is positioning herself to be an acceptable Democrat to the military-corporate junta that rules us. They may want a War Democrat--to take some of the pressure off the Republicans. They will be able to start blaming HER and associated Democrats for Bush's financial and foreign policy disasters, and may have in mind unrest against Hillary and toppling her in '12, with a worst fascist coup. (Jeb?)

With rightwing Bushite corporations counting all our votes with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY software and with virtually no audit/recount capability, we can mobilize millions and raise all the money in the world, and we WILL lose on the war issue. NO ANTIWAR CANDIDATE WILL BE PERMITTED.

I think we might have some say on whether or not it's Hillary or a Republican who is sworn in--because Diebold and ES&S can't just manufacture an election, or haven't done it so far.* There have to be some votes for them to tweak. And I think the question is whether or not the antiwar grass roots majority will have any kind of seat at the table in a Clinton II administration. They do still need our support, to get into a position to be tweaked or not tweaked, as the Corporate Powers decide.

My hope is that we will be able to influence a Clinton II administration on election reform, and restore transparent elections, to start to regain representation for the great peace-loving, anti-Iraq war, progressive majority in this country--which I am completely convinced exists under the radar of the Corporate bullhorn that is given to the rightwing (way out of proportion to their numbers).

That is my hope and prayer--after 40 years as a loyal Democratic Party member, and having watched and participated in politics all my life, through many, many, terrible political traumas.

My personal druthers is: Gore/Kerry. ("Poetic justice!"). The two people who were denied the presidency by unlawful means. I think Americans would love it. But I don't think we will be permitted that rightful and lawful and perfect satisfaction.

Note: I'm not saying, don't fight Hillary and the War Dems in '06 and '08. We must keep majority opinion front and center, and dog them with it. I'm just saying, be prepared. Be smart and realistic. (Don't let them get you down.) And think long term.


------------------------

*Diebold is out of control in Ohio, and recently flipped four ELECTION REFORM initiatives over, from a pre-election prediction of a 60/40 win, to an election day 60/40 LOSS! --the most audacious flipover we've seen yet. So, they are practicing how to manufacture an election--how to blatantly steal it, no matter what the numbers are.

See Bob Koehler's article on the Ohio initiatives:
http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?custid=67&catid=1824

[VegasWolf]

107. I agree, that is my fear. There is always a 3rd Party! nt

[keopeli]

111. Excellent and inciteful comments, Peace Patriot.

I'm not on the "it will definitely be Hillary" train yet, but she has made great strides. The junta of 2000 has had astounding effects on our election system. I'm not convinced that the Feds could get away with such blatent larceny. I'm astounded that Ohioans were not in the streets protesting. 60% is a sizeable majority.

[orpupilofnature57]

116. Bravo!!! Hillary Hate Mungers!! A must READ!!!

HOW YA LIKE THAT AD!

[DemonFighterLives]

118. Good Post!

We are in a real pickle. Hillary does seem pre- ordained, but I think she needs to get off of the war bandwagon.

The crime family has made it nearly impossible for any candidate to stand up for what they really believe or God forbid- what the people want.

[Irreverend IX]

112. Think they're trying to tell you something, Hillary?

Democrats are getting sick of their leaders kowtowing to right wing hawks, and you're one of the worst offenders.

[orpupilofnature57]

117. What happened to Al then??

[VegasWolf]

122. Feingold for Prez! Time for courage from our leaders! nt