Three said hurt in Tenn. school shooting

[Behind the Aegis]

JACKSBORO, Tenn. (AP) -- Three administrators were shot and wounded at a high school Tuesday, and a student was arrested, school officials said.

The victims' conditions were not immediately released.

Parents rushed to 1,400-student Campbell County High School to take their children home after the shooting about 30 miles northwest of Knoxville.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCHOOL_SHOOTING?SITE=OKTUL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-11-08-15-58-59

appears this is a breaking story.

[SiriusLiberal]

1. One Dead

according to the local news.

November 8, 2005

JACKSBORO (WATE) -- An assistant principal is dead and two other administrators wounded following a shooting at Campbell County High School this afternoon.

A male student walked into the school cafeteria around 2:00 p.m. hiding a hand gun under a napkin, then allegedly opened fire on the three men.

Assistant principal Ken Bruce was killed. Principal Gary Seale was wounded but managed to tackle the student and the boy was taken into custody.

snip

[MrBenchley]

2. Guess what scummy right wing loonies publish a gun magazine for kids?

If you said the NRA, you'd be right....

[beam me up scottie]

3. That's an extremely

disturbing picture.

[saigon68]

5. Here's another one

[beam me up scottie]

6. Hey, I recognize those mouth-breathers.

They were here to protest a soldier's funeral this past summer.

Nazis: The Next Generation

[MrBenchley]

9. Fred Phelps is gun rights all the way....

It's his second big crusade after gaybashing...

"Phelps, pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church, is best known for his public campaign against homosexuality, which has included picketing other churches and funerals of AIDS victims.
He has run for public office, including governor, three times before.
He promised "zero tolerance" on various issues, including gun control, abortion, crime, budget increases and same sex marriages."

http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/052394_governor.shtml

Curiously, the "gay gun owners group," the Pink Pistols, haven't got even a mildly disapproving word to say about Fred and his imbecile band...but they did draw up an enemies list with people like Barney Frank and Anne Heche.

[beam me up scottie]

13. The "Pink Pistols"?

I knew about Phelps but I've never heard of the Pink Pistols.

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

[MrBenchley]

19. One of the many phony astroturf groups

the gun lobby cobbles up. They also have a fake law enforcement group and TWO fake doctors' groups.

The "Pink Pistols" used to have a link on their home page to the right wing loony (Rostchek) who whistled them up...and he in turn had an essay on HIS site (Northbridge) outlining some other astroturf groups he'd created and chortling what a "good trick" they were on liberals due to "cognitive dissonance" (see, there are gay people, and there are guns, and uh, that's about it)...

I suppose if you were actually feeble-minded and had some dishonest person explain the group to you, you might believe they were not counterfeit.

Mysteriously, they never turn up on gun loony sites, which are full of bigoted slurs against gays, to complain about those slurs.

[beam me up scottie]

20. I'm sure they're welcome

to target practice with the militia types all the time, right?

Probably the only way that would happen is if they agreed to be the targets.

[MrBenchley]

24. LOL!

The gungeon had a couple or three illuminating threads on the subject...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=20608

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=68319

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=68076

[rinsd]

28. Self delete...argument is useless

[rinsd]

27. Support of Gun Rights = Support for Phelps?

I've seen you go pretty low on the demgogue scale but that's just freaking ridiculous.

[MrBenchley]

44. Who do you think you're trying to kid?

There's nothing to gun rights except extreme right wing bigotry hiding under a new sheet giggling that nobody can guess who it is....

Let's recap, starting with the gun industry itself, made up of swell folks like
--tax evader and right wing cult leader Sun Myung Moon;
--neoNazi sugar daddy Gaston glock
--convicted stick-up artist J.J. Minder of S&W (forced to step down as chairman, he remains on the gun makers board of directors)
--GOP fundraiser Richard Dyke of Bushmaster.

Then let's go to the "gun rights" movement and its spokespeople:
--Larry Pratt of the Gun Owners of America is a racist so virulent that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company
--NRA board member Ted Nugent is synonymous with racism
--NRA board member Grover "drown government in a bathtub" Norquist is a right wing crazy
--NRA board member Jeff Cooper calls black people "Orang-outangs"
--NRA board member Robert K. Brown publishes the disgraceful "Soldier of Fortune" magazine, a stroke book for would be mercenaries and hit men
--NRA board members Harry Thomas, T.J. Johnston, Leroy Pyle, and Neal Knox all have ties to white supremacist paramilitary groups
--NRA board member Roy Innis has long had ties to right wing groups and often functions as a conservative token
--NRA keynote speakers in recent years have been Zell Miller, Jeb Bush, Trent Lott, Tom Delay and Dick Cheney
--the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms were both started by the right wing Young Americans for Freedom and are little more than GOP front organizations
--Second Amendment Foundation and CCRKBA head Alan Gottleib is a Republican fundraiser who has been convicted of tax fraud. He also looms large in the anti-environment movement
--Gun rights pseudocscientist John Lott is synonymous with academic fraud from his perch at the right wing AEI
--The Second Amendment Caucus in Congress consists of some of the most right wing members in the GOP, including such racist dimwits as Marilyn Musgrave and Tom Tancredo
--Doctors for Reponsible Gun Ownership is an astroturf committee of 1,000 gun nuts (most of whom are not doctors) created by the right wing Claremont Institute to spread disinformation on the public health questions.
--the Law Enforcement Association of America is an astroturf group created by the NRA to pretend that police officers oppose gun control.
--the "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" is another astroturf group that routinely promotes neoConfederate and racist gibberish.
--the "Second Amendment Slatterns Sisters" boast that they are a freeper offshoot

The wonder isn't that this gun crap is such feeble minded right wing horseshit but that it's such transparently feeble minded right wing horseshit.

[MrBenchley]

7. The magazine has gun ads aimed at kids...

I sometimes think that if Americans knew even half of what the gun industry is up to, they'd demand the whole thing be shut down yesterday.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Meanwhile their stupid parents

are busy screaming about explicit video games and banning sex education.

Yeah, we've got our priorities in the right order over here. :sarcasm:

[benEzra]

10. Why?

That's an extremely disturbing picture.

(referring to the kid in the reloading article)

In my state, well over half of households, including a majority of Democrats, own guns. If you do, it is vital to teach gun safety and responsibility at an early age.

The kid in the picture is wearing safety glasses, and is probably being supervised by his parents (did you read the article?)

It'd be a pretty rare kid in my area who wasn't doing supervised target shooting at that age. Do you find supervised Olympic-style target shooting disturbing also?

I would refer you to Lizotte, A.J., Tesoriero, J., Thornberry, T., and Krohn, M.D., "Patterns of adolescent firearms ownership and use" Justice Quarterly 11:51–74 (1994), which found that kids who were socialized into responsible firearms ownership by their parents were less likely to be delinquent than those whose families owned no guns at all.

Only a small percentage of school shootings have been carried out by kids who have participated in organized shooting sports, and based on the demographic data, I suspect they are underrepresented.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Back off, Hoss.

You know nothing about me, so go pick a fight with someone else.

I'm not in the mood to get pig-piled on by gun nuts.

[toopers]

74. So you make a statement and then offer no back up

Its obvious who is nuts.

[beam me up scottie]

81. Is backup required in order to make a statement?

Or do you just make this shit up as you go along?

[MrBenchley]

22. Guess....

"Three dead in Tenn school shooting."

"which found that kids who were socialized into responsible firearms ownership by their parents were less likely to be delinquent than those whose families owned no guns at all."
I'll bet. Just as a giggle, what did it say about kids who grew up in households where parents were irresponsible with guns?

"Only a small percentage of school shootings have been carried out by kids who have participated in organized shooting sports"
Which no doubt accounts for the poor marksmanship...

[-..__...]

26. This month in NRA "InSights" for Kidz!

"Hot Fall fashion for back to school: The New Glock For-tee"

"Cafeteria drawn down match-up: Which caliber is best... .380 or .25 ACP"?

"Little gunz for little hands. InSights test drives the new offerings from Bryco and Raven Arms".

Yep, damn NRA poisoning and corrupting impressionable young minds, again.

:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

29. Wow, one comment about a magazine cover and the gunbies get all aroused.

Sorry to ruin your fun, but I'm not in the mood to play.

You'll have to satisfy yourselves.

:hi:

[MrBenchley]

39. Our "pro-gun democrats"

All "pro gun"; nary a scrap of "democrats"...

[beam me up scottie]

46. I had no idea this issue brought out such paranoid dogma from liberals.

It's either "Love all guns and support AK 47s being handed out in nurseries" or "Die you leftist pig".

This is as much fun as discussing religion with the freepers I work with.

Excuse me while I find the nearest brick wall to whack my head against.

Oh, wait.

Here's one.:banghead:

[MrBenchley]

47. It's a sacred fetish object which none may blaspheme against

else reams of right wing blah and incoherent sniveling shall be brought forth from the worshipers...(snicker)

[beam me up scottie]

51. Egad.

No middle ground, eh?

Too bad for them I don't fit into one of their tiny boxes.

[toopers]

75. I think that statement could be made by both sides of this argument!

[beam me up scottie]

82. Really? See, I can't tell because

the pro-gun zealots were the only ones who jumped my ass for posting.

[-..__...]

45. No problem.

Your frustration is understandable. I can remember a time when pro RKBA activists were seen as the bad guys and had a tough fight ahead. Been there, done that.

We still are, but we're doing much, much better in the legislative arena and there's more yet to come... I'm satisfied.

Where's your Million Mom March Now?

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

48. Million mom what?

I have no dog in this fight but apparently that doesn't matter.

Like I said, I'm reminded of discussing religion with freepers at work.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

52. I remember that.

I remember the freepers freaking out about it, too.

I think they still are.

[MrBenchley]

54. Yup, they still are...

[-..__...]

55. Not every gun owner is a Soldier of Christ FreepTard.

Why is it that the flip-side is unacceptable to you (and others)? That a liberal Democrat can support and participate in our right to keep and bear arms? Why is this particular issue is viewed as a right-wing/Republican/conservative platform when it shouldn't be?

[beam me up scottie]

56. Why are you tying a red herring around my neck?

I'm a vegetarian, please take it away.

What exactly is supposed to be unacceptable to me and when did I say that every gun owner is a "Soldier of Christ FreepTard" ?

Please tell me, I'm dying to know what my opinion is.

[-..__...]

65. Is there a point to mentioning religion and Freepers at work?

Like I said, I'm reminded of discussing religion with freepers at work.

And what's their connection to gun ownership?

[beam me up scottie]

83. The dictionary is your friend.

Look up "analogy" and then get back to me if you still need help.

[iverglas]

66. ^^^ You gotta understand:

Analogies don't go over well in the rkba-head crowd.

If you say "doing X about A" is like "doing X about B", you have just said "A=B", and nyah nyah, no it isn't and why would you say such a horrible thing?

Trying to have a rational discussion with a two-year-old is like trying to have a rational discussion with a person in the final stages of Alzheimer disease. There, you see? I've just said that a two-year-old is identical to a person in the final stages of Alzheimer disease ... and what an awful thing to say about, well, either one.

Other times, if you say "doing X about A" is like "doing X about B", then since you have just said "A=B", so nyah nyah, you have to agree if you don't "do Y about A" than you can't "do Y about B".

Requiring that people meet certain requirements in order to drive a car is like requiring that people meet certain requirements in order to use a firearm. There, you see? I've just said that a car is identical to a firearm, so now I may not say that people should be required to have a licence to purchase a firearm, because cars and firearms are identical and nobody needs a licence to purchase a car.

That's how it goes. As my psychologist once said about relationships with people with narcissistic/psychopathic personality disorders: you should never even start to play because you can never win, because they're making the rules and you don't even know what they are.

Uh oh. I think I've just said that an rkba-head is a psychopath. Check my math there, will you?

[beam me up scottie]

84. Geez.

Somebody should put warning labels on their foreheads.

What do they do, lurk in the gungeon waiting to attack anyone posting anything even remotely related to guns?

More than a little obsessive, if you ask me, but I guess everyone needs a hobby.

[iverglas]

85. funny you should ask

What do they do, lurk in the gungeon waiting to attack anyone posting anything even remotely related to guns?

Or was that question rhetorical? ;)

[MrBenchley]

90. For that matter...

there are gun loonies on their own right wing cesspools who monitor DU constantly for the chance to run over and spout this trigger happy gibberish...

If you want to see a VERY funny example of this, check out post #193 in this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2191657

[MrBenchley]

61. Hell, most gun onwers are pro-gun control...

"That a liberal Democrat can support and participate in our right to keep and bear arms?"
Hey, if you want to swallow right wing lies and pretend you're a "liberal Democrat" no skin off my nose. But it's worth noting that there either aren't enough of you to be a pimple on a gnat's rear end, or else you're mute as stones when gun nut forums blossom with bigoted dittohead rubbish and gun owner groups are right wing puddles of pus.

"Why is this particular issue is viewed as a right-wing/Republican/conservative platform"
Let's see...the gun industry itself is made up of swell folks like
--tax evader and right wing cult leader Sun Myung Moon;
--neoNazi sugar daddy Gaston glock
--convicted stick-up artist J.J. Minder of S&W (forced to step down as chairman, he remains on the gun makers board of directors)
--GOP fundraiser Richard Dyke of Bushmaster.

The "gun rights" movement and its spokespeople are folks like these...
--Larry Pratt of the Gun Owners of America is a racist so virulent that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company
--NRA board member Ted Nugent is synonymous with racism
--NRA board member Grover "drown government in a bathtub" Norquist is a right wing crazy
--NRA board member Jeff Cooper calls black people "Orang-outangs"
--NRA board member Robert K. Brown publishes the disgraceful "Soldier of Fortune" magazine, a stroke book for would be mercenaries and hit men
--NRA board members Harry Thomas, T.J. Johnston, Leroy Pyle, and Neal Knox all have ties to white supremacist paramilitary groups
--NRA board member Roy Innis has long had ties to right wing groups and often functions as a conservative token
--NRA keynote speakers in recent years have been Zell Miller, Jeb Bush, Trent Lott, Tom Delay and Dick Cheney
--the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms were both started by the right wing Young Americans for Freedom and are little more than GOP front organizations
--Second Amendment Foundation and CCRKBA head Alan Gottleib is a Republican fundraiser who has been convicted of tax fraud. He also looms large in the anti-environment movement
--Gun rights pseudocscientist John Lott is synonymous with academic fraud from his perch at the right wing AEI
--The Second Amendment Caucus in Congress consists of some of the most right wing members in the GOP, including such racist dimwits as Marilyn Musgrave and Tom Tancredo
--Doctors for Reponsible Gun Ownership is an astroturf committee of 1,000 gun nuts (most of whom are not doctors) created by the right wing Claremont Institute to spread disinformation on the public health questions.
--the Law Enforcement Association of America is an astroturf group created by the NRA to pretend that police officers oppose gun control.
--the "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" is another astroturf group that routinely promotes neoConfederate and racist gibberish.
--the "Second Amendment Sisters" actually boast that they are a freeper offshoot

If you want to climb into the cesspool with those folks, you got no right to complain that other people notice that they're turds...

[MrBenchley]

49. RKBA activists ARE the scum of the earth

"Where's your Million Mom March Now?"
It's still here, D_S...and it's not made up of scum like John AshKKKroft and Grover Norquist.

[MrBenchley]

38. Ah, sarcasm....

Guess that's what you've got to resort to when you're trying to defend the scum of the earth...

[oneold1-4u]

31. Reloading?

It is creating a small but effective misile and the rest of learning is just that, simplifying making a gun, grenades, launchers, and even bombs!
Somewhere recently they shot a kid that only had a toy gun, but how can anyone know, they look real enough that they are used for many crimes. Some toys put the real ones to shame and they are a lot cheaper!

[Retired AF Dem]

33. Yes it is always easier to blame someone else

In Fayetteville Tn last night a grade school principal was severely beaten inside his school by two men with baseball bats. I know let's blame the MLB.
http://www.elkvalleytimes.com/news/index.asp

Two weeks ago a female teacher was beaten to death by a 15 yr old teen. I know lets blame the WBA.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/051031/teacher.shtml

I know I know, personal responsibility is a right wing concept.

[MrBenchley]

40. Everybody but the corrupt gun industry, evidently....

"I know I know, personal responsibility is a right wing concept"
Funny, which corrupt industry run by the scum of the earth just engineered a bill in Congress so that they could evade responsibility for their actions? Oh yeah, the gun industry.

[beam me up scottie]

4. New details:

Three Shot, One Dead At East Tennessee High School
Posted: 11/8/2005 3:39:00 PM
Updated: 11/8/2005 3:50:44 PM

Three Shot, One Dead At East Tennessee High School

A shooting at Campbell County High School Tuesday afternoon has left at least two school administrators injured and an assistant principal dead.

Spokeswoman Rachel Woods said Assistant Principal Ken Bruce was killed, and Principal Gary Seale and Assistant Principal Jim Pearce were wounded.

School board member Homer Rutherford said no students were injured, and that a student was arrested after the early afternoon shooting. The student's identity has not been released.

Saint Mary's Medical Center of Campbell County officials said they received two victims. The condition and identities of the victims weren't immediately available.

http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/15489.asp

[Wickerman]

11. One Dead, 2 Hurt in Tenn. School Shooting

Damn, I hate these senseless things.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051108/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting;_ylt=AvGtqFMxrK5R_WdC.9iHases0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

JACKSBORO, Tenn. - A student shot and killed an assistant principal and seriously wounded two other administrators at a high school Tuesday, officials said. The student was arrested.


The motive for the shooting at Campbell County High School, 30 miles from Knoxville, was not immediately known, Sheriff Ron McClellan told WVLT-TV.

"We don't know yet. I have the individual at the hospital," McClellan said. "These men are all fine Christian men, and I am at a loss for words."

Assistant Principal Ken Bruce was killed, according to state Education Department spokeswoman Rachel Woods. Principal Gary Seale, who was shot while trying to take the student into custody, was reported in serious condition, and Assistant Principal Jim Pierce in critical condition.

[MindPilot]

12. "These men are all fine Christian men..."

Apparently god was paying more attention to who he's going to have win next Sunday's NFL games than steering bullets away from his worshipers.

You'll never hear anyone say, "They were damn fine Atheists, steadfast in their unbelief and grounded in lack of faith."

[saigon68]

15. So it follows that if they were Islamics

They deserved to die?

[MindPilot]

17. I think that's the implication, yes. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

18. I'm going to take a wild guess

and assume that the shooter was also a "good" christian as well.

[chelsea0011]

32. This kind of logic came up with the tornado and a comment by Bush

He said and I paraphase "we pray for and God's blessing". The whole fuc*&ng path caused death and destruction and now we pray for God's blessing? So what exactly was God's plan for those poor souls? They all want it both ways.

[iverglas]

70. in some fairness ...

the expression "fine Christian <person>" really means that the person exemplified the good characteristics advocated by Christianity.

Of course, what those characteristics are is not a matter of universal agreement, but in context it usually means honest, kind, charitable -- essentially, loving of his/her neighbour, the prime directive of Christianity. It's a term that applied to my grandfather.

In a homogeneous Christian culture, it's quite appropriate; it conveys a universally understood meaning. (Although, indeed, it can still contribute to xenophobia in relation to the outside world.) A lot of people don't appreciate that they no longer live in such a culture, and that such words don't convey the meaning most people who use them probably actually intend.

I acknowledge that it is such ignorance, rather than malice, that prompts most people with religion who say they are praying for me to do that, for instance, when I am in straits in which they would want someone to pray for them.

Ignorance can indeed be culpable at a certain point, and the effects of words spoken and actions taken out of ignorance can be intolerable.

In this particular instance, I don't think it's necessary to infer that the words were spoken with exclusionary intent, or intent to elevate one religion over another. I just think they meant that the speaker could see no reason why the victims would have been targeted, because they were "good people", which in the speaker's dialect translated to "fine Christian men".

Not knowing the speaker and whether s/he had ever had the exclusionary nature of the words pointed out, I'd start with a gentle, factual explanation of their problematic effects, if the occasion arose. If the explanation fell on resolutely deaf ears, I'd move on to name-calling. ;)

[Stockholm]

59. Everyone hate senseless school shotings and gun related violence

but who has the courage to do something about?

[leetrisck]

14. I really doubt more gun laws or gun control or

lack of gun magazines would or will prevent something like this. Prayers for all concerned.

[MrBenchley]

23. So let's throw up our hands and SAY nothing can be done

this time and the next time too!

[leetrisck]

30. Not what I'm saying at all - we've got a ton of laws

on the books already and if those can't be enforced, more won't be enforced.

[MrBenchley]

37. WE do NOT have "a ton of laws on the books"

And who's not enforcing the ones we have? Oh, yeah, the GOP.

[sofa king]

71. I beg to disagree.

Firearms laws comprise a significant portion of the nation's statutes and regulations, including an entire chapter on the subject in the U.S. Code:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html

Every state has its own laws and regulations. Many local governments also have regulations and ordinances.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/gun.control/

It would take a person years to read and understand the full body of legislation, regulation, and case law on firearms.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gunlaw.htm

That's plenty enough to be described as "a ton," if you ask me.

I consider myself a pretty liberal person, but I'm also a realist. Here is a reality which gun control advocates must, in my humble opinion, address fairly and comprehensively: what is America supposed to do with the hundred million or so firearms that are already available in the United States? If you pack a gun and ammunition in cosmoline and put it in a basement, that gun will be ready for use within minutes, or at most hours, a hundred years from now. So what's the grand plan to deal with that problem?

Perhaps now is not the time to drag out the tired old arguments of the failure of prohibition and behavior legislation.

Instead, I'd just like to see some helpful gun control advocate reveal to me the plan to a) take firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens and criminals alike, at the same time; b) track down and destroy all lost, damaged, and hidden firearms in the United States, as well as all those individuals who refuse to comply with a) above; and c) how a disarmed society is supposed to respond to criminals who still manage to acquire firearms, as they always do even in places where they are almost totally banned.

Show me a plan, and maybe I'll buy it. But simply saying, "that's not true" when five minutes of research shows me that it is will not sway my opinion at all.

[iverglas]

76. straw a-flyin'

I'd just like to see some helpful gun control advocate reveal to me the plan to a) take firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens and criminals alike, at the same time; ... <and (b), and (c) ...>

Would you also like to see him/her stand on his/her head and spit nickels?

Why would a gun control advocate "reveal" to you a non-existent plan to do something s/he does not advocate doing?


If you pack a gun and ammunition in cosmoline and put it in a basement, that gun will be ready for use within minutes, or at most hours, a hundred years from now. So what's the grand plan to deal with that problem?

Problem? What problem?

If you want to pack your stuff away in the basement (assuming it's in a secure storage device), why would I care?

You planning to take your firearm out of storage and sell it to a criminal? Are many "law-abiding gun owners" planning to do that?

If Joe Criminal wants to do that, is this something I should be worried about?

On the other hand, if Joe Criminal decides to keep his/her firearm handy and use it for nefarious purposes ... well, amazingly enough, Joes tend to get caught fairly regularly, and their firearms to be removed from circulation.


But hey, speaking of (c) --

c) how a disarmed society is supposed to respond to criminals who still manage to acquire firearms, as they always do even in places where they are almost totally banned.

... well, of course, it's still pretty strawy. What places are these? Can you name a couple?

But assuming, for the sake of argument, that such places exist ... oh, I get it, you're talking about places like Washington DC. Not that I'd actually call a medium-sized city a "society". But yeah, isn't it just amazing how criminals figure out how to drive over a bridge to get what they want?

In any event, I'd imagine that this "disarmed society" of yours would "respond to criminals" pretty much the way most societies do now (including those subcultures in the US where people are entitled to tote pistols around in their pockets ... and only a tiny minority of people actually do). By attempting to apprehend them and punish them for their deeds.

Funny how much crime there is in those places were people do have loads of guns, and are entitled to tote 'em around in their pants, isn't it?

[sofa king]

79. Like it or not, those are my concerns.

You may call it a strawman argument if you wish. But doing so does nothing to change my observation that many people in this very thread have not gone much past the idea that guns can be bad and they should go away. There is a huge underlying reality which makes that impossible. Or is it?

iverglas, your own response to my item c) seems to indicate that you think that if guns are legal anywhere, they'll be available anywhere--a position which I would agree with, by the way. But you obviously don't agree with the obvious "solution," which is to get rid of all guns.

So please, tell me what you would like to see. I'm not trying to argue or start a fight. I'd like to know what you think needs to be done. I have my own opinions which I will freely give if you'd like them, but what I need is other opinions which differ from my own, the better for me to understand the issue.

[iverglas]

87. ya think?

iverglas, your own response to my item c) seems to indicate that you think that if guns are legal anywhere, they'll be available anywhere--a position which I would agree with, by the way.

You can agree with anything you can find to agree with, but what I said don't seem to be it.

If guns are legal in Upper Volta, does this mean that they'll be available in Toronto?

By the way, guns are perfectly "legal" in Toronto. And, of course, I was not suggesting that they shouldn't be, or that the problem of inter-jurisdictional illegal transfer has anything to do with the "legality" of guns.

What is not legal in Toronto is, e.g., to possess a handgun without a restricted firearm permit. Or to leave your handgun lying around unsecured when not in use. Or to drive down to Ohio and pick up a handgun at a gun show and drive it back across the border to Toronto.

The problems arise when someone does leave his/her handgun lying around unsecured -- and someone else steals it. And when someone does drive down to Ohio and pick up a handgun at a gun show and drive it back to Toronto. And when those people then use the handgun to cause injury or commit crimes.

The people in Toronto can require that their handgun-owning neighbours secure their handguns, and take appropriate action against them if they fail to do so. But the people in Toronto can't do a damned thing about the people in Ohio who sell handguns to people who plan to drive them back to Toronto -- and the Canada/US border isn't really all that much more secure than the DC/Virginia border, you know.

As far as how things are done in the US, of course, that's up to people in the US -- but, at least to the extent that how those things are done affects people outside the borders of the US, we're quite entitled to have opinions and advocate policies. Or ... shouldn't I have been out demonstrating in the freezing slush when your president was working up to invading Iraq?

What would I like to see?

A scheme implemented in the US that

- requires firearms owners to be licensed (successful safety training being a requirement for licensing);

- requires all transfers of firearms, by anyone to anyone else in any circumstances, to be registered;

- requires firearms owners to store their firearms safely and securely.

I'd like to see requirements for handgun ownership and possession along the lines of what exists in Canada, Australia, the UK ... but I know that ain't about to happen -- any more than any of the rest of it is. But I can dream.

[MrBenchley]

91. Let's look at Tennessee's gun laws...

Tennessee allows assault weapons to be sold

Tennessee does not require background checks at gun shows

Tennessee does not provide any penalty for adults who leave laoded guns around children

Tennessee does not require gun locks to be sold with guns

Tennessee allows anyone who wishes to get a pistol permit unless the police can find a reason to stop them within a limited amount of time...

If that seems like a ton to you, I'll take what you're smoking...

[crankybubba]

73. from a 2002

u.k. telegraph article

The new gun crime figures also show that handgun crime has soared past levels last seen before the Dunblane massacre of 1996 and the ban on the weapons that followed. The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997, the year after Thomas Hamilton, an amateur shooting enthusiast, shot dead 16 schoolchildren, their teacher and himself in Dunblane, Perthshire.

It was hoped that the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals. According to internal Home Office statistics, however, handgun crime is now at its highest since 1993.

full article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/24/nguns24.xml

[iverglas]

77. The Telegraph?

What happened, WorldNewsDaily and Fox didn't have what you needed?

It was hoped that the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals.

Sez The Telegraph -- you know, that thing that in 2002 was owned by Conrad Black -- excuse me, Lord Black of whateveritis that he renounced his Canadian citizenship to acquire the title to. Do you know about Conrad, or do I have to help you out? Here ya go, the google results list for "Conrad Black" right-wing; there are a few dozen results, but you can just skim the first page:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1
&safe=off&q=%22conrad+black%22+right-wing&meta=

Anyhow, you might want to ask someone who actually knows, and who isn't pushing a right-wing agenda (you know, anything at all to discredit a government that wasn't created in Margaret Thatcher's image), what the actual intent of the legislation in question was.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997, the year after Thomas Hamilton, an amateur shooting enthusiast, shot dead 16 schoolchildren, their teacher and himself in Dunblane, Perthshire.

Oh look. Hamilton wasn't a criminal in illegal possession of a firearm. Gee, I wonder; why would legislation introduced in response to an identified problem that was of tremendous concern to the public -- the use of legally possessed firearms, by persons legally entitled to use them, to commit mass murders -- be expected to cause some completely different effect??

Rhetorical question. Loaded question, in fact; nobody really did expect it to have that effect. Some people just want some other people to think that somebody expected it to have that effect. Why? Oh, well, so they can point at the measure and say "useless!" and point at the people who enacted it and say "stupid! evil!" ... and maybe if they do it often enough, somebody will be fooled. I mean, Conrad made a career out of pretty much that sort of thing.

[MrBenchley]

92. Look out! It's the phony British bloodbath!!!

Gun enthusiasts never seem to tire of dragging out this dishonest crap.

The plain fact is that the entire UK (80 million souls) has about as much gun crime in a year as medium-sized US city of 800,000 or so, such as Birmingham, Alabama.

[iverglas]

67. really?

I really doubt more gun laws or gun control or lack of gun magazines would or will prevent something like this.

It must be pure random chance that there are no school shootings in Canada (where possession of handguns is subject to strict requirements, and all firearms are required to be registered and to be stored safely and securely when not in use), or the UK or Australia (which both tightened the regulations that apply to firearms acquisition and use after such shootings occurred).

As Ionesco would have said: quelle bizarre coincidence!

No one would suggest that there are no other factors in play that lead to differences between the US and other countries in this respect.

But anyone who would argue that the public policies that apply to firearms acquisition and possession play no role at all in the differences can really be dismissed as disingenuous.

[crankybubba]

69. re: really???????

no school shootings in canada???


WSWS : News & Analysis : North America : Canada

School shooting in Canada, wave of "copy-cat" threats in US follow Columbine tragedy
By Jerry White
4 May 1999
The tragedy at Columbine High School has been followed by a rifle assault at a high school in Alberta, Canada on April 28 and a wave of "copy-cat" threats at public schools throughout the US.

In an event eerily similar to the Colorado killings, a 14-year-old Canadian boy walked into his high school with a .22 semi-automatic rifle last Wednesday and shot and killed one 17-year-old student and seriously injured another 11th grade student. The incident occurred during lunchtime at WR Myers High School in Taber, a quiet farming community of 7,200 people, about 110 miles southeast of Calgary, Alberta.

Students described the shooter, who attended the school until this year, as unpopular and often ridiculed. Jason Loeppsky, 20, whose younger brother is a former classmate of the assailant, said, "I think everybody saw the kid needed attention and love basically and that's something the kid didn't get from everybody in the community." Witnesses said the youth was wearing a long, dark trench coat similar to those worn by the two killers in Columbine when he carried out the attack.

here is a shooting at a school in canada shortly after columbine. why did this happen with the strict gun control in canada????

[iverglas]

72. good job!

An incident from 1999, in a country of 30 million in which over 6 years have passed since that incident.

Lemme see. That would be the equivalent of about 9 such incidents in the last six years in the US. How's your math?

Allow me.

http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/newsworld/viewer.cgi?FILE=NL20050324.html&TEMPLATE=newsreal_archive.ssi&SC=NL

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

Since 1996, one each in:

Scotland
Yemen
Canada
Sweden
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Argentina

... three in Germany

... and twenty-eight in the US (up to and including Red Lake).

On a per capita basis, that's more than three times the rate in Canada, even if we average the numbers for each country over the ten-year period and ignore the fact that for more than six years there have been no such incidents in Canada.

You do know that there are about 7 million firearms in Canada, right? Just under 1 for every 4 people. (And no -- I just watched the pertinent bit of BFC again this week, and Michael Moore most definitely did not speak what has become the meme of certain crowds: that Canada has more guns per capita than the US. Nope. The film said, more than once, that there are about 7 million firearms in Canada. But that's still quite a few, eh?)

Oh, and by the way -- in 1999, Canada had not yet implemented firearms registration, just fyi. And the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations were made in early 1998, although in the respects relevant to this context they were apparently essentially the same as the earlier regs.


why did this happen with the strict gun control in canada????

What element, exactly, of that "strict gun control" did you expect would have prevented it?

The effectiveness of afe/secure storage laws ... like all other laws ... depends on compliance. Is it likely that as many people will store their firearms safely and securely if there is no requirement to do so as will do so if there is a statutory requirement?

So, why did this happen?

I'd say because

(a) a young person had some reason to have ill feeling toward, and wish to harm, someone else

(b) that young person had access to a very effective and relatively risk-free means for acting on that wish

(c) that young person decided to use the means available to carry out his intention

Remove (b), and whaddaya got?

Well, maybe a kid who takes a knife to school in order to carry out his wish to harm someone. Funny how he didn't do that though, isn't it?

[crankybubba]

78. the "knife culture"

is spreading in great britian. If no guns are avaliable other alternatives will be found

Page 2
Assistant Chief Constable Tony Melville, ACPO lead on knife crime said:“The Association of Chief Police Officers is pleased to support the Crimestoppers campaign in an effort to reduce the harm caused to individuals and communities by the violent use of knives. We would encourage any young person who is a victim of knife crime to report it to their local police, to help us take off the streets those individuals who can wreck peoples lives by using knives. We recognise however that many young people are reluctant to involve the police and we would appeal to them to use Crimestoppers - one knife off the street is one less that can be used to cause serious injury or even worse.” The government has recently addressed the problem of knife crime through the proposedViolent Crime Bill, which will raise the age at which it is legal to purchase a knife from 16 to 18. Under the new legislation head teachers will have the right to search students who they suspect are carrying knives or blades into school. Patsy McKie, Mothers Against Violence said: “We fully support Crimestoppers and wouldlike anyone who has information about a knife crime or any other type of crime, to contact Crimestoppers. It is very important that we work together when dealing withbehaviour that causes harm to any person or their property. It is all about helping tochange that behaviour.” • Neighbourhood Knife crime facts: • 65% of people who carry knives have their weapons used against them (Be Safe Project) • 10% of 11-12 year olds and 24% of 15 and 15 year olds said they had carried a weapon in the past year. (Youth at risk? Communities that Care 2002) • 29% of young people in London schools admitted that they had carried a knife (Youth Justice Board/Mori survey 2003) • This figure rises to 62% among excluded students. (Youth Justice Board/Mori survey 2003) • One in five 16 year-old boys admitted attacking someone intending to hurt them seriously with a knife. (Youth Justice Board/Mori survey 2003) • 4,909 emergency hospital admissions in London were caused by assaults with a sharp object in 2003/2004 (Peace Alliance) • In 2004 more than 20 teenagers died as a result of knife attacks in the UK - that's almost one teenager every two weeks. (Be Safe Project)

from a british crimestoppers flyer. one in five sixteen year olds attacked someone with a knife!!!!!!

[iverglas]

88. oh, yes, indeed, sure

from a british crimestoppers flyer. one in five sixteen year olds attacked someone with a knife!!!!!!

Uh ... that's 16-yr-old boys -- not, it seems, that girls aren't beginning to rival boys for yobbery in the UK.



As for the rest of the blah blah -- would you care to regale us with some statistics about the lethality of knife wounds vs. the lethality of gunshot wounds? Tell us how many crimes are facilitated by knives vs. how many crimes are facilitated by firearms? Provide us with reports of bystanders in public places being injured or killed in the cross-"fire" during knife attacks? Give us figures about the numbers of children and adolescents who kill themselves with knives?

In 2004 more than 20 teenagers died as a result of knife attacks in the UK - that's almost one teenager every two weeks.

We kinda need something to compare that to, don't we? for it to be meaningful?

How many teenagers in the US died as a result of firearm attacks in 2004? Divide that by about 4.75, and you can compare the rate to the UK's. Problem is, there were only 68 firearms homicides in the UK in 2008 in total, so the comparison is going to be a little lop-sided. Just imagine if there had been 323 firearms homicides in the US in 2004 ... heck, there might just have been "one teenager every two weeks" killed by firearm in the US, if that had been the case. Sadly, it wasn't.

And knives do such a damned good job, how is it that so many people in the US choose to use guns for their purposes instead?

It would seem there'd have to be one hell of a lot of knife homicides starting to happen in the UK, to catch anywhere near up to the US rates for firearms homicides alone.



If no guns are avaliable other alternatives will be found

Looks like those "other alternatives" just aren't doing the job, eh?

[crankybubba]

80. finding an incident in canada is telling

because you said in you previous post there were NO school shootings in canada holding that country up as a standard for all others in gun laws. Funny how all those laws did not prevent that shooting.

[iverglas]

89. hmm

you said in you previous post there were NO school shootings in canada ...

If I said there were no dinosaurs in Canada, would I be wrong then too? I mean, there were dinosaurs in Canada ...

And actually, what I said was:

there are no school shootings in Canada

Are. Present tense. There has been one recorded "school shooting" in Canada, and it occurred over six years ago.

... holding that country up as a standard for all others in gun laws

Really? Too bad you can't quote me. As I recall (correctly), I sarcastically suggested that it must be pure random chance that Canada, "where possession of handguns is subject to strict requirements, and all firearms are required to be registered and to be stored safely and securely when not in use", does not have school shootings. I'd say I was maybe holding it up as a standard for school-shooting incidents. Not a standard you like? One school shooting in recorded history not good enough for you? Feel free to set your bar higher!

Funny how all those laws did not prevent that shooting.

Me, I always chuckle when I think about how all those speed limit signs don't prevent me from driving 150 km/h on the 401 ...

Where do you people get this notion that laws prevent ANYTHING? Surely you might have learned from Moses' experience with that concept, by now.

[libnnc]

21. Horrible. Where'd the kid get the gun?

As I'm typing this, I'm getting ready for the sub teaching jobs I've got lined up for this week and next. How do we keep the kids safe? How do we keep our teachers and staff safe?

Where did the kid get the gun?

[unschooler]

25. This isn't just about guns, it's about the violence that we inculcate into

our boys and men in this country. These boys have heard from a thousand different sources that the way to "solve" problems is with violence.

[MrBenchley]

42. Now, he didn't throw the bullets and shout bang....

"These boys have heard from a thousand different sources that the way to "solve" problems is with violence."
And a multi-million dollar industry made sure he had a way to solve that problem...

[LWolf]

60. You are right.

Both are factors; the support and encouragement of violent solutions to anger, and the ready access to a weapon that doesn't allow for replays when sanity returns.

[Rocknrule]

34. Any guesses

how long it will take the likes of Jackass Thompson and Holy Joe and the other Sheila Brovlovskis of the world to pin this one on videogames?

[Retired AF Dem]

35. To late

it has already been pinned on a NRA magazine that was on the shelves two years ago.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Right.

How is the herring tonight?

[MrBenchley]

41. Evidently less time

than it took somebody to cry in fear that his violent little timesink might be slandered publicly.

[Raiden]

43. I just watched Bowling For Columbine the other day

I wonder if the NRA's gonna head to Tennessee now...

[benEzra]

57. That one was the result of a jump-cut in BFC...

Regarding the Flint shooting mentioned in Bowling for Columbine, Heston came to Flint eight months after the incident, not 48 hours--when both bush and Senator Gore were in the area campaigning, one of nine stops Heston made in a three-state area. And the web page Moore zooms from in Bowling, that says "48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead"--do you know what the rest of the sentence said?

"48-hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead, Bill Clinton is on The Today Show telling a sympathetic Katie Couric, 'Maybe this tragic death will help.' "

This page referred to the President, not Heston or the NRA...

[MrBenchley]

62. Ah, more gibberish from hardylaw, an ass who boasts about being a freeper

And I know you're not trying to pretend that the odious piece of shit Heston didn't go to Denver the week after Columbine...

By the way, worth noting that in 2000 Heston called for his inbred little klavern to lynch Al Gore...but then he knew firsthand what sort of scum he was associating with there...

[AngryAmish]

53. Did anyone return fire?

[benEzra]

58. It's illegal to bring a gun to a school in Tennessee...

and unless you are actually licensed by the state to carry a firearm, you can't even bring one within 1000 feet of any school property, even on a public road.

[MrBenchley]

63. Wonder how bitterly the NRA fought that law...

I know right wing imbeciles have been trying to knock it down....

[The Straight Story]

64. I think it is illegal to shoot people in schools too

I guess some people just like to break laws.... :)

[iverglas]

68. amazing, isn't it?

I guess some people just like to break laws....

That's why sensible people consider ways of making it more difficult for those people to do that.

Don't want your neighbourhood being used as a drag racing strip? Don't just put up speed limit signs; put in a speed bump or traffic diverter or two.

Don't want kids getting their hands on firearms? Try doing something that makes it more difficult for kids to get their hands on firearms.

Maybe something like a law that requires individuals in lawful possession of firearms to keep them unloaded and locked up separate from ammunition when not in use. After all, if those folks are really "law-abiding gun owners", wouldn't they abide by that law? Do law-abiding car owners disobey one-way signs on streets just because it inconveniences them a little to comply?

Some people disobey one-way signs. Some people will disobey safe/secure firearms storage laws.

But y'know, it's a pretty decent bet that some kids just would not be able to get their hands on firearms who otherwise would have been able to (and, of course, some of the many thousands of firearms stolen from residences and used in crime in the US every year will not fall into the hands of the people who use them to commit crimes), because some people will obey the law.

Just think ... if the kid in this incident had got hold of a firearm because mummy or daddy left it accessible to him/her, and mummy or daddy were now charged under a law that required that the firearm be stored in a way that would have made it inaccessible ... even some more people might have decided it was time to obey the law who hadn't previously seen fit to do so.

Laws are just like that, aren't they? They don't make anybody do anything, but laws, and enforcement of laws, can persuade some people to do some things. And ordinary, law-abiding folks can be a little easier to persuade than those bad, law-flouting criminals.

And you'll never know exactly which kids are still alive because some other kids couldn't get their hands on a gun, and which of those kids have parents with guns who wouldn't have locked them up unless there was a law requiring it ... but, well, me, I'd rather gamble on there being some kids still alive if I do something than on there being no dead kids if I do nothing.

[crankybubba]

86. I do agree in principle on the safe storage laws.

it's the outright banning of certain items that I disagree with. 50 cal rifles for example. It is nothing but do-nothing legistation. these guns weigh 30 lbs and up and cost 2500.00 and up. 3.00 per bullit is also a little out of most shooters budgets anyway.It would make a great varmint gun though(;))

[MrBenchley]

93. A bit more on Tennessee...

"Tennessee ranked first in the nation for the rate of violent crime committed with firearms (a rate of 251.2 per 100,000, compared to the national average of 120.5 per 100,000)....
Tennessee ranked first in the nation for the rate of aggravated assault with a firearm (a rate of 153.3 per 100,000, compared to the national average of 57.7 per 100,000)....
Tennessee ranked sixth in the nation for the rate of juveniles arrested for murder (with a rate of 5.1 per 100,000, compared to the national average of 3.3 per 100,000)....
For Tennessee households with children and youth under the age of 18, 9.7 percent kept a loaded firearm in the household, exposing an estimated 136,340 children and youth....

http://www.vpc.org/press/0511tenn.htm

[iverglas]

94. it's a tradition

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4226557,00.html
Ken Bartley Jr. is the 15-yr-old who has been charged in the shooting.

Bartley lives with his father, Ken Bartley Sr., a man who himself is a contradiction.

The elder Bartley is a well-respected businessman and former LaFollette city councilman. He also shot a man to death in 1981.

The fatal shooting of Jack Stout, 33, inside the elder Bartley's business, Kenny's Pioneer convenience store, came after Stout accused the elder Bartley of sleeping with his wife, according to newspaper accounts.

The elder Bartley insisted he acted in self-defense because Stout attacked him. A Campbell County grand jury ultimately agreed, refusing to indict Bartley Sr., who had been charged with voluntary manslaughter.

[MrBenchley]

95. Ah, the road apple doesn't fall far from the horse's ass...

There's also this...

"The boy is the son of Ken Bartley, owner of Ken's Pioneer Arcade, one of the businesses raided last week by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation for running a video poker operation. "

http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=4090301